• botoni said on Nov 29, 2007....

  Beyond, I have never heard of such a thing here. Perhaps it would be appropriate under certain circumstances to rush aid to a suicide caller in the form of medical or psychiatric personell. Sending the police is frightening and rediculous. Persons manning suicide crisis lines ought to be trained to identify critical vs non-critical situations.

• Fallyn said on Nov 29, 2007....

  as far as i know it's not....i've called them before and nothing like that happened to me....maybe it wasn't a suicide one...maybe it was a crisis line of some kind.
  
  that does just seem WRONG though. it would seem to make it less likely that someone would call for help.
  
  a friend of my sisters has 6 kids and her husband was in iraq.....she called a crisis line and CPS came the next day and took all her kids to foster care. they got them back within a couple of weeks........the only basis they had for taking them was the call to the crisis line. she feels like she can never reach out for any kind of help ever again.
  

• polarheart said on Nov 29, 2007....

  Beyond, that is just terrible.  One would think there is a better way to deal with this. . .I feel so sorry for that lady!  I have no idea what procedure is here in the UK, but I would hope they dont send the police over to cuff and take you away!

• Twylarants said on Nov 29, 2007....

  My gosh, they cuffed her?  Pretty drastic thing to do to someone who was lonely and needed to talk.

• destinydiva said on Nov 29, 2007....

  oh my goodness!!!  that is terrible!!!  if your suicidal,that experience is hardly gonna help matters!!  I wonder if it is (in the state your friend is in) a saftey measure so as they dont commit suicide? I am sure there are better ways of ensuring that though!
  wow I am just shocked to be honest....
  xx
  

• bff said on Nov 29, 2007....

  seriously, if ANYONE EVER reads about something like this, they will NEVER call a suicide hotline. wow. wtf.

• quietone said on Nov 29, 2007....

  I could understand maybe sending someone to her home if there was indeed a deep concern that she was going to do herself in, but not take her to jail etc.Just have someone go check it out..  I think that was awful and uncalled for.  I don't know what the laws about that are either.   I thought that was the whole idea about calling hot lines, is that it was anonymous.

• skald said on Nov 29, 2007....

  I am shocked. I don't know what is normal for your country but I am shocked The woman was seeking help not another bad experience. 

• Eilan said on Nov 29, 2007....

  If she was cuffed and taken to jail, what was she charged with?

• wakingharmony said on Nov 29, 2007....

  Where in the heck was this. I know times have changed....and she called for someone to talk to...did she say she had taken something?  It is against the law to commit sucicide.... what a crock it is now days! I wonder if they just want more subjects to test drugs on

• husbandhater said on Nov 29, 2007....

  There are times when I get depressed,thanks for the heads up. I hope I never feel desperate enough to call those folks. As far as I know this is NOT common practice anywhere I've ever lived but times have changed in Post 9-11 and sue happy America. This poor Young woman I hope she called and told them off!

• silverwhisper said on Nov 29, 2007....

  beyond, this is positively insane! arresting someone for calling the suicide hotline?!
  
  i'm sorry, but my sense of outrage is completely destroying my ability to comment meaningfully.
  
  ed

• wakingharmony said on Nov 29, 2007....

  meaning came thru loud and clear ed no need to appoligise..

• hidufel said on Nov 29, 2007....

  outrageous! why on earth would she ever be willing to cal the hotline ever again? 

• travelr712 said on Nov 29, 2007....

  i've never heard of anything like that either, but i can't say i'm surprised by it. i was reading in an artical about richard roberts setpping down from ORU because of a lawsuit. he said that this is a liturgus society. someone gets mad at someone else and they sue. perhaps in your friend's community, the hotline was sued once because they didn't call for the police and blamed when a person OD'd. it's really terrible that such institutions who are there as a place for people become rather an extension of the judicial system, but more and more, it's a fact.

• beltrix said on Nov 29, 2007....

  thats rediculous, im from the uk and our suicide hotline, called the smaritans, is completly confidentual.....i feel so sorry for that poor women, to feel so alone and then not being able to talk to a supportive ear....this world has gone far to P.C x

• beyondtheveil said on Nov 29, 2007....

  Commenters- I called my friend again tonight to see if she knew anything new. The only thing new is that there is someone who is going to look into this some more for the girl.
  
  The info I had remains the same.
  
  It was a suicide hot line, not a crisis line.
  She dialed a 1-800 number and the hot line may have been in New York.
  The hot line called the police.
  My friend is going to keep me informed. If there are any more developments, I'll let you know.
  
  The longer I think about this, the angrier I get.
  

• travelr712 said on Nov 29, 2007....

  that's understandable beyond! you should get angry about this! we all should get angry about this! these services are supposed to be a place where people who are really in trouble can feel safe to call for help, and if it becomes known that this is a possible result, there will be many many more people who actually follow through.

• PassionTraveler said on Nov 29, 2007....

  In your friend's case, she fell through the cracks.  But for people who need the help, but likely won't take the necessary steps to get it, I think it's a great solution. You don't know how badly I wished that had happened to someone I loved who needed it.
  
  Maybe there needs to be stronger qualifying criteria on behalf of the hot line before calling the cops or the white-coats, but sometimes they can't tell for sure exactly how deep down the rabbit hole a person is and it's better to save a life and err on the overreaction side.
  
  My loved one needed help desperately and wouldn't go get it. I never felt comfortable calling the white-coats on him, because it felt so much like a betrayal. But if he had experienced something like that, then maybe he'd have had a chance for a normal bi-polar-free life.
  
  Just my two cents.
  
  PT
  

• wombat said on Nov 29, 2007....

  I have never heard anything so awful! I thought they were supposed to listen to you, then if you wished, maybe someone could come.  Mostly, I thought it was just a service to "talk you down" and maybe give you references to counseling services in your area.  This is too messed up to even contemplate.

   

• Eilan said on Nov 29, 2007....

  I showed my husband this blog entry and from a retired cop standpoint, he was pretty outraged by what happened. 
  
  I don't necessarily have a problem with the police showing up to check on her, but I'm still wondering how she can be cuffed and taken to jail unless she were charged with a crime.  Disorderly conduct, perhaps?  But even then, when she hadn't necessarily shown that she was a threat to herself or anyone else. . .
  

• Mamie said on Nov 29, 2007....

  oh brother, this was a real nightmare.

• TinSoldier said on Nov 29, 2007....

  If they thought that they were going to lose her, then yeah. I can see that.
  
  But otherwise, no. Not if someone just calls.
  

• hotaka said on Nov 29, 2007....

  Did they read her her rights first? "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do may be used against you in a court of law..."
  
  "And what are the charges?"
  
  "Feeling depressed and needing to talk to someone about it, your Honour."
  
  Sounds like a Monty Python sketch.
  
  "I sentence you to be hanged by the neck until you cheer up."
  

• TinSoldier said on Nov 29, 2007....

  hotaka: LOL!

• tbs230 said on Nov 29, 2007....

  From a person who has worked at a hotline in New York...that is definitely not normal procedure. If we can get the person's name and their permission to send someone, than yeah...but if not, legally we can't do anything...we're not allowed. Same as doctors...unless we feel that it can lead to the harming of another individual...say if she had children in the house and we felt they might be threatened...
  
  other than that...I don't know what these people were thinking.
  

• wombat said on Nov 29, 2007....

  Now I see something I had completely missed---the possibility of harming others, especially children.  It is a tough call....no pun intended.  The situation needs to be thouroughly assessed by the hot line person--and they need proper training to do this. 

• soleme said on Nov 30, 2007....

  Shocking!, I have never heard of such a thing.  The person at the hotline center is in need of trainig.

  A visit to ensure she has not harmed herself or someone in her family would have been sufficient or they could have taken her to the hospital for a check up, yes that is understandable, but but arresting her?

• cotteralladams3 said on Nov 30, 2007....

  They did the right thing. People don't call suicide hot lines because they are in need of companionship.  Often, people harm themselves because of questionable histories, drug addiction, psychoses and other issues.  The police may have saved her life.  I am tired of people arguing for the right of everyone to harm themselves, their family and society. I don't blame them but it is only temporary.  Look at all these addicts on the street out of institutions getting HIV, dying of exposure, eating garbage, living in boxes, etc.  How is that a life?  It is not related but it is still a parallel.  I think we should be glad she is safe.

• LadyGamer said on Nov 30, 2007....

  This doesn't surprise me in the least. There is no "help" for those truely in need. None at all.

• LadyGamer said on Nov 30, 2007....

  Cotterall~ So you are in favor of someone else deciding what is best for you?

• kruuyai said on Nov 30, 2007....

  husbandhater's comment was right on the money.  This is almost not surprising in the post 9-11 America.  Our rights have been being stripped away from us systematically in the name of "protecting" us... from terrorists, from ourselves, it makes no difference.  The private life in America is an endangered species.  I'm all for protecting innocent children from a potentially harmful parent, as anyone who knows me or has read my posts will know, but there has to be a good reason to believe that children are in danger before they are ripped away from their parents... an experience that is traumatic both for the children and the parents.  A visit to the troubled person by a health care professional who could make that assessment would be much more helpful if helping is really the intent of this hotline.  To drag someone away in handcuffs is not going to alleviate suicidal feelings.  On the contrary.  It may very well drive a person over the edge.  This person's well being was not taken into consideration at all.  Nor was the well being of her children, if she has any.  Imagine what it would do to you to see your mother being taken away by the police in handcuffs.... especially if she hadn't done anything wrong.  Would you, as a child, ever feel any trust for a police officer again?  Who would you go to if you were in trouble... if a stranger were following you home from school, for example?
  
  Passiontraveller:  You say you wish this had happened to your friend, because you thought that calling health care professionals to help him would be a betrayal of sorts.  How is calling the police any less of a betrayal?  I see it as much worse.  Mental health professionals can help a person who is suicidal.  They've done it many times.  What can the police do other than physically prevent the suicide?  But how can that help in the long run?  When that person goes back home, how is s/he likely to feel about himself and his life?  How much more likely is that person to carry out a suicide attempt... and succeed this time, because they wouldn't be able to trust a hotline again? 
  
  This post stirred up the emotions I felt last night as I watched a video by Naomi Wolf about our eroding freedoms in America and how we are in danger of losing everything.  Like hotaka asked, did they read her her rights?  Did they charge her with a crime?  I'd add to that, was she allowed a phone call or to speak with an attorney?  This is government interference in our personal lives at the extreme... using an agency that is supposed to be there to help us, but is actually acting as an agent for the police.  What's next... will hospitals start turning in patients who have infectious diseases like AIDS, etc?  Instead of getting treatment, will they get jail sentences?   I posted Naomi Wolf's video here.  If you were outraged by what you read here, please watch this video and you'll see how this is only the beginning of an alarming trend that is escalating into something much more sinister.  If you value having a private life, you can't afford not to watch it.
  

• Pontius_Pilate said on Nov 30, 2007....

  Wow...
  Yea, this does real well for someone who needs some type of help. Lets arrest them!
  If this gets out, i.e. high publicity, I can see some serious drawbacks. Lots of less calls to these places.
  
  As a side note, considering they arrested her for possible endangerment, they are allowed to hold her for 24 hours. During that time, they have to either get a full-blown charge or release her. They tried for the full charge, the shrink she saw. The shrink saw it was not needed, so they released her.
  What the police did, was legal, by my understandings at least.
  What the hotline did, while I can't say if it was legal or not, it was seriously wrong.
  Situation 1:
  "Yea, I am tempted to kill myself, I need to talk to someone."
  "Ok, sure, stay on the line so we can send someone right over to put you in jail."
  Situation 2:
  "I need to talk to someone, but there is noone to talk to without going to jail."
  Click Click Boom
  

• kumarilata said on Nov 30, 2007....

  I think the reason they gave isn't true reason.  not happy till they have us all on record is what I think. before u laugh, check out stats, will tell you this is happening more than u think.

• LadyGamer said on Nov 30, 2007....

  I can completely believe this happens more than is reported. I have known for years that any tiny show of weakness to anyone will result in bad things.

• PassionTraveler said on Nov 30, 2007....

  You misunderstand BTV:
  
  I called agency after agency to get him help. NO ONE would qualify him for treatment at that time. NO ONE! He fell through every crack.
  
  I sent him to a psychiatrist paying $200 bucks a visit. He wouldn't let me go with him. I found he was endorsing the checks and keeping the money for pot, alcohol, anything to quiet the raging bipolar disorder inside him.
  
  Yet, he wouldn't take any real medications that could have hopefully controlled his bipolar. He thought shrinks were trying to sabotage him through medications. (most of his history leading to this belief happened before I met him).
  
  He couldn't keep a job, so no insurance, no health care, nothing to help. Each time I'd find maybe some hope of an agency to help. He had no patience and wouldn't even stay for the visit.
  
  I knew his paranoia at the entire mental health industry was a side-effect of the disease, but in the end, he had to want to get help. I had a friend who told me that if I called some hotline, and reported him, they'd do exactly what you reference in your post. The police or at least some white-coats would come and take him to a psych ward for evaluation. If he evaluated at dangerous to himself or others, they'd keep him and treat him by force. If he didn't, they'd let him go in 24 hours.
  
  He was always soooo paranoid and questioned everyone's intentions and loyalty, even if we only had his best interests at heart. It took quite a while to get him to trust me enough to influence him somewhat toward seeking treatment, and even then it was so fraught with drama, missteps, etc.
  
  If I had called knowing they'd haul him away, and the treatment didn't work, he could be violent and always irrational and had paranoid delusions when at the height of his manic states. When not in manic states, he was perfectly rational, but during rational times, he didn't see the need to seek help. It was a vicious cycle! If he thought I'd betrayed him, I can't be sure what he would do.
  
  So YES, I do wish very much that he had called one of those Hotlines. Then maybe he would have gotten the help that he REALLY NEEDED! And not that his accident was caused by his illness, it certainly caused him to take on reckless behavior, so yes, I even think if he had called one of those hotlines, and got hauled away, he might be alive today... healthy, happy, whole and a productive member of society! But honestly, there is no way to truly know.
  
  Now, Maybe I misunderstood that the police didn't take your friend for mental health evaluation, and instead just locked her up for a night. If that's the case, then yes, it is stupid. However if in fact, they did, and she had been truly suicidal, as my friend was on soooo many occasions, then maybe it would have been for the greater good.
  
  PT

• PassionTraveler said on Nov 30, 2007....

  As an addendum, I do agree that having someone hauled away isn't ideal, unless as a last resort.
  
  Frankly, the public needs to stop looking at mental illness like leprosy and view it like a real illness that needs real treatment. We've got SOOOO many free health care programs for the indigent and similar populations. Why not really address the mental health needs properly?
  
  Most homeless people have mental health issues like bipolar and schizophrenia. They aren't homeless because they can't get a job, they are homeless because they can't function properly to keep a job without the right treatments.
  
  He looked healthy, and was a handsome and charming Caucasian male. He was immediately viewed as not really in need and was often dismissed for the free treatment as they felt his good looks and race afforded him many opportunities that other clients of less fortunate races and circumstances (usually appearing less fortunate too) couldn't obtain. BULLSHIT!
  
  He worked hard to get jobs. He'd get them, then lose them, quit, or be embarrassed by some drama that happened when in a manic state and just not go back. His disease didn't allow him to function like the rest of us. It just didn't. No matter how hard he tried, he couldn't make it work... not without treatment which never came. He'd never keep a job long enough to get the needed health care.
  
  I'm so frustrated at the mental health industry and the surrounding bureaucracy. So yes, I agree that what happened to your friend wasn't ideal for her or anyone. The real answer lies in improved mental heath care and views surrounding said illnesses, not the paddy wagon brigade, but in the absence of some solution, I'd rather have them hauled away and committed through a hotline than dead.
  
  PT
  

• beyondtheveil said on Nov 30, 2007....

  passion- A note on what you said. I can understand your anger on this because I am no stranger to mental disease. I've had moderate to severe depression for twenty years. My wife's brother walked onto a freeway to kill himself in his twenties due to schizophrenia and succeeded. One of my sons had childhood schizophrenia. And there are more.
  
  People with mental disease fall through the cracks just like children in bad homes because of our social agencies. And you are right, all should be improved. You are frustrated with the mental health industry like secretlife is with doctors and and the health industry in general.
  
  I don't know all the facts in this case except what has been written, but it bothers me the way this was handled for a number of reasons. If they felt she needed help there are certainly other ways to contact her and provide it. She will probably never call another hot line again. The handling of the situation I'm sure did more harm than good. And then there are the others in her location that know what happened and some most assuredly don't want this to happen to them. This girl in question to my knowledge had no prior mental problems.
  
  There are good reasons we have these hot lines and we want people to feel safe to use them. If people do not feel safe to use them, they will not be used.
  
  I have not used a hot line as yet, and now I never will.
  

• PassionTraveler said on Nov 30, 2007....

  Thanks Beyond for your understanding. I can appreciate your concerns as well. Despite my rant above, I truly can.
  
  PT
  

• travelr712 said on Nov 30, 2007....

  pt - i really didn't see what you wrote as a rant. i saw it as the truth. and i agree with both you and beyond. and i also know that our medical industry is in such dismal shape largly due to the unrestrained litigations brought against health care professionals over the last 4 decades. and our social agencies that were put in place to provide help to the individual for the benefit of the society have been stripped of funding and personel, all in favor of the theory of 'peak oil'. it is a viscious, downward spiraling circle that has not yet reached the bottom. healthcare has become so expensive, that it is becoming only the rich who can afford it. i am sorry for what happened to your loved one, and sorry for your loss. i can tell it still pains you deeply.

• vacantmind said on Dec 03, 2007....

  Okay, one thing that is commonly missed with suicide hotlines is who is funding them. If they are funded by the state, county, or licensed practioner they are legally obligated to report threats of self harm. A simple call to these hotlines shows intent. They will most likely send the police because they are the only ones trained to disarm a person.

  So, if you are searching for a place to call and you find them in the government pages of the phone book they are probably going to report you.

• PassionTraveler said on Dec 04, 2007....

  Good information VacantMind.
  
  PT
  

• cotteralladams3 said on Dec 04, 2007....

  I am in favor of forcing those with psychoses into treatment and institutionalization if necessary which is better than the streets. I studied social work and psychology and have come to realize from insiders that the left-wing policies of social services do not work. These hardcore addicts, for example, should be placed into rehab and if necessary, jail. Some people are trouble to society even if they do not mean it. I am not talking life-long institutionalization or jail but it may be necessary in extreme circumstances. As far as people telling me what to do, don't the leftists with their anti-free speech rhetoric, need for economic redistribution, and other forms of regulation tell me what to do? I am not a conservative. I am close to a libertarian. Still, ask anyone if gun control is a bad idea and most people would argue that it is necessary to have some sort of regulation. I don't want a guy with uncontrolled psychoses and a history of hardcore drug trafficking in my neighborhood. On the other hand, it isn't my idea for the city police to arrest women who work at strip bars and escort service agencies, to harass gays, ban nude beaches, pick up hitchhikers, fine jaywalkers, fine people driving 10 k over the limit, arrest casual pot smokers and limit free speech rights. You can be arrested for loitering and drinking beer in public. You can be fined for sleeping on the beach or selling art in the park or begging. That isn't my idea.

• cotteralladams3 said on Dec 04, 2007....

  I might disagree with people living off fast food, smoking and not wearing seat belts but the government wasn't created to regulate everyone's lives.  Education and help are the keys in those areas.  They need to get parents involved with their children.

• beyondtheveil said on Dec 04, 2007....

  vacant- I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.
  
  cotter- I'm for institutionalizing some people too. The first ones that come to mind are seriously affected schizophrenics. It is very difficult to keep them on their med and so many find themselves on the streets. It is not because of violence, they are no more violent than the average citizen, but that has to be a pitiful existence, and a dangerous one.
  

• hidufel said on Dec 06, 2007....

  I dont like this... all this really does is just reinforce the negativeness. I know i certainly wont ever call a hep line, if this is the result... its likely to make things worse for folks too.

• beyondtheveil said on Dec 06, 2007....

  hidufel- Remember, all hot lines aren't the same and how they are handled could be local decisions. I said I wouldn't use one either, but in reality, if needed, I'd probably check out my local one and ask how they operated. 

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