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courtesy of elsewhere...

short version: in a little-noticed move, the utterly contemptible democratic congress approved putting the national guard under the control of the federal government: specifically, of the president. long version here.

the money quote:
gene healy, senior editor at the cato institute, quoth:
“it is not clear anymore that federalism is a priority for the republican party except for rhetorically.”

commentary: it’s an interesting article, and i wanted to call out a few things for particular attention, considering that this means the president can call up the national guard without the approval of the state government..

bryan whitman, pentagon spokesman, quoth:
“no one is attempting to wrest control of the national guard…[snip]…what this section is aimed at doing is providing the president with increased authority, discretionary authority to call upon the dedicated reserves to help citizens at a time of disasters.”

bzzt, wrong answer! thank you for playing, mr. whitman, but your obvious doublespeak aside, this is obviously another kick in the teeth to states rights.

mike huckabee (mostly) drafted that letter in response to this increase of government power on behalf of all US governors opposing this. every single governor. i think that says something—and my respect for mike huckabee has increased in response to this.

i am incredibly disappointed in this congress for blindly just going along with this. what is wrong with these craven, useless bastards?

ed

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Comments

  • beyondtheveil said on Nov 20, 2007....
    Ed- I think its even more telling that Bryan Whitman stated "the fifty-one governors do not understand" (come again?), and that its "an effort to provide more power to the federal government without eroding that of the states" (what?). 
  • Zayda said on Nov 20, 2007....
    Ed--I may have misread, but according to the article, the bill is still is before Congress, which would mean it hasn't been voted on yet, correct?


    The bill in Congress would extend the president’s power to such disasters.

    So, if this hasn't been voted on, then congress has yet to actually cede these powers to the president.


    perhaps the bill won't pass.
  • silverwhisper said on Nov 20, 2007....
    beyond: yep.

    super z: darn it, i missed that! whew--thank you for mentioning that! excuse me, i have e-mails to send.

    ed
  • bloc said on Nov 20, 2007....
    one day we'll regret giving Presidents so much power. I know this hasn't passed yet, but it's merely a minor piece of a larger pattern
  • silverwhisper said on Nov 20, 2007....
    well, i'd describe it as part of a pattern of (well-established) behavior, if you ask me...

    ed
  • quietone said on Nov 20, 2007....
    I am not much up on politics or govt.  because it all just makes me sick these days.  But this doesn't surprise me, but does upset me...what else is our "land of the free" gonna lose next??  It seems to me that this country is becoming quite a dictatorship. 
  • sheltercrow said on Nov 20, 2007....
     

    Does anyone really believe this after all the other Busk-speak lies?

    “No one is attempting to wrest control of the National Guard,” he said, citing Hurricane Katrina as an event that led to the measure. “What this section is aimed at doing is providing the president with increased authority, discretionary authority to call upon the dedicated reserves to help citizens at a time of disasters.”

  • sheltercrow said on Nov 20, 2007....
     

    This provision would authorize domestic operations for the US military.

    HR 1585

    Section 1615, page 672
    (of 794)

    (Under TITLE XVI, NATIONAL GUARD ENHANCEMENT)
    .....

    DETERMINATION OF DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE CIVIL SUPPORT REQUIREMENTS

    (a) DETERMINATION OF REQUIREMENTS---- The Secretary of Defense shall determine the military-unique capabilities needed to be provided by the Department of Defense to support civil authorities in an incident of national significance or a catastrophic incident.

    (b) PLAN FOR FUNDING CAPABILITIES---

    (1) PLAN----The Secretary of Defense shall develop and implement a plan, in coordination with the Secretaries of the military departments and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for providing the funds and resources necessary to develop and maintain the following:

    (A) The military-unique capabilities determined under subsection (a).

    (B) Any additional capabilities determined by the Secretary to be necessary to support the use of the active components and the reserve components of the armed forces for homeland defense missions, domestic emergency responses, and providing military support to civil authorities.

    (2) TERM OF PLAN---- The plan required under paragraph (1) shall cover at least five years.

    Lee Rogers (new world order conspiracy advocate that keeps up on these issues)

    UPDATE: The version passed by the U.S. House contained the language described below, but fortunately it looks as if the public print version of the bill has had this language removed. Hopefully it will stay that way and the language won't reappear in the final version of the bill that gets submitted to the President. The U.S. House and U.S. Senate still need to resolve differences on the bill. I still question why so many members of the U.S. House would support a bill with this language included. They must all be nuts. We will be tracking the finalized version of this bill closely to ensure that this language does not magically reappear in the finalized version.

  • sheltercrow said on Nov 20, 2007....
     
    This what George had to say...Nothing I can make out.
     

    STATEMENT OF ADMINISTRATION POLICY

    H.R. 1585 – National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008

    (Reps. Skelton (D) MO and Hunter (R) CA)

    The Administration appreciates the House Armed Services Committee’s continued strong support of our national defense. However, the Administration has a number of significant concerns with H.R. 1585, which the Administration looks forward to addressing with Congress as the bill moves through the legislative process.

    […]

    National Guard Empowerment Act: The Administration strongly opposes sections 1612, 1621, and 1624 and urges their exclusion. These provisions would impinge on the authority of the Secretary of Defense and the Secretaries of the Army and Air Force, and would fundamentally disrupt existing command authority. Section 1612 would effectively specify in law that the National Guard Bureau (NGB) now works for the Secretary of Defense, rather than the Secretaries of the Army and the Air Force; further challenge the Secretaries of the Army and Air Force in exercising their Title 10 responsibilities for their forces; and effectively would place the NGB at a level above the Military Departments. Section 1621 also would raise significant constitutional issues by turning over command and control of Federal forces to a state elected official.

  • Antimatter said on Nov 20, 2007....
    We seem to have our Federal government backwards these days: The power is in the legislature, not the White House. The President has little Constitutional authority to set domestic policy. The best he can do is have friends in Congress propose legislation on his behalf. Meanwhile, our Congress seems docile and asleep, despite being controlled by an opposing party.
  • sheltercrow said on Nov 20, 2007....
     
    I checked and the public print doesn't have a section 1615. For a look go here...
     

    H.R.1585 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 (Public Print)

    It has this section...

    TITLE XVIII--NATIONAL GUARD BUREAU MATTERS AND RELATED MATTERS

     

    SEC. 1801. SHORT TITLE.

    SEC. 1802. EXPANDED AUTHORITY OF CHIEF OF THE NATIONAL GUARD BUREAU AND EXPANDED FUNCTIONS OF THE NATIONAL GUARD BUREAU.

    `Sec. 10503a. Functions of National Guard Bureau: military assistance to civil authorities

    `Sec. 10503. Functions of National Guard Bureau: charter'.

    SEC. 1803. PROMOTION OF ELIGIBLE RESERVE OFFICERS TO LIEUTENANT GENERAL AND VICE ADMIRAL GRADES ON THE ACTIVE-DUTY LIST.

    SEC. 1804. PROMOTION OF RESERVE OFFICERS TO LIEUTENANT GENERAL GRADE.

    SEC. 1806. REQUIREMENT FOR SECRETARY OF DEFENSE TO PREPARE ANNUAL PLAN FOR RESPONSE TO NATURAL DISASTERS AND TERRORIST EVENTS.

    SEC. 1807. ADDITIONAL REPORTING REQUIREMENTS RELATING TO NATIONAL GUARD EQUIPMENT.

     

  • sheltercrow said on Nov 20, 2007....
     

    These are the Presidents concern sections and SEC 1624 is not there.

    SEC. 1612. CONSIDERATION OF NEEDS OF WOMEN MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS.

     
     
  • sheltercrow said on Nov 20, 2007....
     

    Governors Resist Shifting Authority Over Guard By JENNIFER STEINHAUER Published: August 15, 2006

    Did you know that that article is over a year old?

  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    i have two words, musharraf, and hitler.
     
    both of these 'leaders' arrested control in dubiuos manor from the formerly democratic party. both promised to continue democratic process. both gained control of the coutrie's 'civil militia'. both used this militia to suspend the constitution when their term of office was nearing it's end, and they were to be removed from power. we are all waiting breathlessly to see what happens in a month in pakistan. we already know what happened in germany!
     
    once again, thank you mister bush (i can't in good concience bring myself to attach the label of president to that man's name. emperor, maybe...)
  • unassuming said on Nov 20, 2007....
    Wait, we have a National Guard that can respond to disasters in this country?   Based on previous response times, I thought we had to pull them back from overseas.


    /sarcasm off
  • silverwhisper said on Nov 20, 2007....
    quietone: i've been joking (mostly) with one or two other soulcasters about hearing the imperial march (from star wars) when we see what the bush administration's been up to.

    sheltercrow: and yet, there are people who are intent on double-fisted kool-aid quaffing all the same. the copy & paste of articles without any comment, incidentally, doesn't really seem to add much to the discussion.

    antimatter: this congress appears to want to go down in history as nothing but a rubber stamp for the opposition party's president. it's pathetic. or revolting. take your pick.

    trav: i know you like sci-fi. did you ever watch babylon 5?

    unassuming: that was superb! :>

    ed
  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    silver - i watched the first season, and then lost track. this situation sounds like the precurser to orwell's 1984 to me!
  • silverwhisper said on Nov 20, 2007....
    watch the rest: seasons 2-4 are particularly good.

    ed
  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    well, if i ever get to see the last half of year 5 of 'enterprise', i'll put babylon 5 on my list. i did see parts of 2 babylon episodes from the final season dealing with the war, but i didn't have the background to know the story.
  • Fallyn said on Nov 20, 2007....
    this is NOT good.
  • TinSoldier said on Nov 20, 2007....
    So, how has this turned out?

    Seeing as how the article is over a year old and I remember hearing about it last year. And didn't we still have a Republican Congress in August 2006?

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/12406.html

    The National Guard and Reserves often come under the control of the Federal Government. The 41st Infantry Division of the National Guard (mostly Oregon troops, but also including troops from Washington, Idaho, and Montana) was "federalized" well in September of 1940, well before the Attack on Pearl Harbor.
    In 1940, the 41st Infantry Division was inducted into Federal service for WWII. It became the first American Division sent overseas after Pearl Harbor, the first American Division trained in Jungle Warfare. It spent 45 months overseas (longer than any other Division), and earned the title of "Jungleers". The unit deactivated in 1945 in Kure, Japan.
    Of course, since I served in a descendant of that unit, I have a certain bias regarding them.

    Now, I agree that the Executive Branch shouldn't be able to federalize National Guard troops except in national emergency, and even then not for more than say 60 or 90 days without approval of state legislatures/governors. And presidents definitely should not be able to send National Guard troops overseas for longer than that without
  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    tin - many national guard units are under the command of the federal army now while they're in iraq and afghanastan. there is a HUGE difference between folding a few divisions into the army during a war, and federalizing the entire organization of the national guard under the control of the executive branch. correct me if i'm wrong, but as i understood this bill, it puts a standing militia under direct cabinet control, which puts it under direct presidential control. this is a much different arrangement than the pentagon or governors controlling the military and the president being commander and chief. the president still has accountability to the chiefs of staff or governers in the current system. this would give the president direct control over a domestic army, able to issue orders from his desk with no other chain of command involved. this is the same arrangement that hitler had with himmler being the head of the schutstaffel (or ss, german for 'protective squadron', originally cited to protect the public from the 'jewish horde', but quickly became hitler's personal bodyguard and storm troopers) or mussarif being the head of the army in pakistan. one of the cornerstones of our democracy is that our executive branch has no direct power or influence over the standing military, because that would be far too much centralization of power, and one major step closer to imperialism.
  • TinSoldier said on Nov 20, 2007....
    many national guard units are under the command of the federal army now while they're in iraq and afghanastan.

    Really, I'm very aware of this fact, travelr. Trust me.

    there is a HUGE difference between folding a few divisions into the army during a war, and federalizing the entire organization of the national guard under the control of the executive branch.

    I certainly agree.

    The National Guard serves two masters -- the President and the Governor of their state.

    I didn't see a link to the actual bill (I may have just missed it) but as far as I can see it's a non-issue -- the news article is well over a year old.
  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    tin - i didn't mean to sound like i was condecending, if i did, i'm sorry, i was just making a point.
     
    i wouldn't exactly agree that the national guard serves two masters, any more than i would agree that the sheriff's bureau serves the county and the president. even when the national guard is called up to service on a federal level, such as a war or a civil disaster, they are still under the control of the army chiefs of staff, or the governers of the state, they are not under direct control, and don't take direct orders from anyone in the executive branch. i'm saying that the separation of powers is crucial in any democracy, as witnessed by the civil war julius caesar conducted to wrest control of rome from pompey and turn that democracy into an empire. too much power in one man's hands is a very, very bad thing.
  • Zayda said on Nov 20, 2007....
    Tin--Gosh, I didn't even notice that. The article is over a year old.
  • TinSoldier said on Nov 20, 2007....
    You weren't condescending, travelr. I'd let you know if I thought that you were...

    We're having an honest discussion here.

    Umm, the President is the Commander-In-Chief of all of the armed forces. By the Constitution.

    How is he or she not in direct control of the military services?

    Allow me to quote (emphasis mine):

    The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

    Of course separation of powers is important, and I agree with you on that, as well as the point about too much power in one man's hands. However, the military is under the direct control of the Executive Branch and not under any other branch of the Federal Government! It's been that way for over two hundred years now.

    The problem with the National Guard is that the governors of each state are also the commanders-in-chief of their state's National Guard and yet the National Guard is also a reserve component of their respective services (Army or Air Force).
  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    tin - thank you for saying so. i'm often thought to be condescending when i'm not trying to be.
     
    the president does not have power to issue direct orders to individual military units, or even generals. he only has the power to issue directives, which must be interpreted into orders by a separate chain of command, much the same way that the president cannot write laws, he can only sign or veto them when they come from the congress. the military is not under direct control of the executive branch, it is under the direct control of the joint chiefs of staff, who do answer to the executive branch, true, but the executive branch must invoke the agreement of these chiefs before it can expect those directives to be carried out, and again, the executive branch cannot issue direct orders to any military unit in this country. the president can't even declare war without a resolution from the congress. and the presedent can't fund a war without congressional approval. there is a level of accountability to the joint chiefs and the congress inherent in that system. even state governers don't have the power to issue direct orders, they have their own generals who are in direct, chain of command authority over the troups. and yes, the national guard does serve double duty, but in either role, they are still under complete military control, not under any direct executive control.
  • TinSoldier said on Nov 20, 2007....
    Ah! Linebreaks please!

    tin - thank you for saying so. i'm often thought to be condescending when i'm not trying to be.

    I often feel that way too, and I hope that people call me on it when I am.

    the president does not have power to issue direct orders to individual military units, or even generals.

    Well, yeah, but he's still the commander-in-chief. Technically he can. Ethically -- not so much.

    he only has the power to issue directives,

    How are directives different from orders? Do you believe that the military should disregard "directives"?

    which must be interpreted into orders by a separate chain of command,

    Umm, no. That's really not how it works. The language of the Constitution is pretty plain, really. It really is the same chain-of-command. That's something that we learned in the military you know. Kind of a who's-who in the chain of command kind of thing.

    the military is not under direct control of the executive branch, it is under the direct control of the joint chiefs of staff, who do answer to the executive branch, true, but the executive branch must invoke the agreement of these chiefs before it can expect those directives to be carried out, and again, the executive branch cannot issue direct orders to any military unit in this country.

    travelr -- you've contradicted both yourself and the US Constitution here. I don't know what else to say.

    The Constitution says nothing about the "Joint Chiefs of Staff". That was created by the National Security Act of 1947, after a few earlier organizations.

    See also this chart detailing the chain of command.

    You can see that the combat arms aren't even under the command of the JCS. No, really, it's true. They are just an advisory and administrative function.

    Hmm, there's more specifically about the Marine Corps and the President but I can neither remember it nor find it with an easy Google search. I'll work on it.

  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    tin - we're in somewhat of a symantic situation here. let me give you an example of what i mean. lincoln, during the civil war, had to dismiss i believe 3 commanding generals for not carrying out his directives until he put grant in charge. no army moves an inch or raises a weapon without an order from the general officers, but they do not have to move on a directive from the president. yes, the president can have that general removed from their office, but they must be replaced with another general, who also has the power to refuse to carry out his directives. when you were in the military, you, or anyone else, never received an order issued by and signed by the president, they were signed by the general staff. a directive is 'here's what i want to have done', an order is 'here's where you're going to go, how many you'll take, when you'll leave, how you'll get there, what you'll take with you,' et. al. even bush last year said he leaves the fighting to petrayus, he doesn't interfear with the operations of the military. constitutionally, the executive branch does not have the power to issue direct orders to the military, and never has. and yes, the jsc was created in 1947, mostly because the newly formed air forces did not want to be under the branch of the navy or the army, they wanted their own branch. i was talking about this current chain of command as a reference.
  • bloc said on Nov 20, 2007....
    "However, the military is under the direct control of the Executive Branch and not under any other branch of the Federal Government! It's been that way for over two hundred years now."

    I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but the other branches, well congress,  has a lot of say over the military and this is laid out in the Constitution as well. This is from Section 8 - Powers of Congress

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;


  • TinSoldier said on Nov 20, 2007....
    Yes, semantics, umm..

    no army moves an inch or raises a weapon without an order from the general officers, but they do not have to move on a directive from the president.

    If that were true (which it is not) then it would scare me far worse than our present situation.

    The military is under civilian control, culminated in the President, as ordained by the Constitution. The military forces are not subject to their own discretion with regards to policy, and I'm actually glad about that.

    yes, the president can have that general removed from their office, but they must be replaced with another general, who also has the power to refuse to carry out his directives.

    I had the power as a private and as a non-com to refuse the orders of those appointed over me, but I risked being jailed if I had done so. As do generals who refuse the President's orders. Nowhere in the Constitution does it give the generals the "right" to refuse direct orders.

    when you were in the military, you, or anyone else, never received an order issued by and signed by the president, they were signed by the general staff.

    The President gave the general staff the orders and they were disseminated to subordinate units. There is a paperwork chain that you can follow if you would like to do so. That's part of the point -- to not only put someone in charge but also to put the responsibility somewhere.

    a directive is 'here's what i want to have done', an order is 'here's where you're going to go, how many you'll take, when you'll leave, how you'll get there, what you'll take with you,' et. al. even bush last year said he leaves the fighting to petrayus, he doesn't interfear with the operations of the military.

    That, my friend, is called "delegation".  The generals rarely interfere with how the colonels run their units and don't dictate the details. Colonels don't usually tell their captains how to run their units. Captains do tell their lieutenants how to run their units but that's because lieutenants don't know any better.

    And NCOs run the whole show at the company and platoon level anyway. The so-called "sharp-end of the stick".

    constitutionally, the executive branch does not have the power to issue direct orders to the military, and never has.

    See, this is where you are wrong. The President is the Commander-in-Chief. That's verbatim from the Constitution. He is the general of the generals where it comes to the military. He is in absolute command of the military and it says exactly that.

    Congress controls the purse strings. The President controls the military. That's the way it is written and that is the way that it is written
  • TinSoldier said on Nov 20, 2007....
    bloc -- I saw your post after my last.

    The Congress has the power to declare war. Of course, they have not seen fit to do so since WWII.

    Yes, they also provide the funds for and the rules for the armed forces. I don't deny that.

    I mean "direct control" as in the President can give direct orders to the military.

    C'mon, now. You're enough of a student of history to know what I mean, but thanks for clarifying anyway.
  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    well of course the congress did. they declaired war on iraq in 2003.
     
    and my point exactly is that if the person that holds executive power also holds direct control of the military, that is too much power for one man to hold. the president does not directly control the military. he does not wear a uniform. he does not hold a commission. when his term of office is up, he no longer has any influence over the military, he cannot stay in a position of power in the military until his retirement. he cannot order this division or that division to go here or there. he can only direct the general staff to perform operations in a certain theatre, he cannot order any person in the military to do anything.
  • TinSoldier said on Nov 20, 2007....
    well of course the congress did. they declaired war on iraq in 2003.

    They did? Well, that's news to me. I didn't know that Congress had declared war on any country since 1942. Please enlighten me if you have information to the contrary.

    and my point exactly is that if the person that holds executive power also holds direct control of the military, that is too much power for one man to hold.

    Umm, you realize that "military" and "executive" are very similar, no? The executive "executes" the will of the people/government. And that the military is the power that "executes" some action?

    the president does not directly control the military.

    Yes he does. Saying it does not make it true, when the US Constitution says that he does. In explicit language.

    he does not wear a uniform. he does not hold a commission. when his term of office is up, he no longer has any influence over the military, he cannot stay in a position of power in the military until his retirement.

    Well, yeah. That's the whole idea behind "civilian control of the military". I cannot believe that you don't see this.

    he cannot order this division or that division to go here or there.

    Yes, he can.

    he can only direct the general staff to perform operations in a certain theatre

    Yes, he can do that too.

    he cannot order any person in the military to do anything.

    Being at the top of the chain of command, the President most certainly can do that.

    When I was in the military, if the President had given me a direct order, then I most certainly would have performed it to the best of my abilities. As I was trained to do.
  • travelr712 said on Nov 20, 2007....
    tin - we're in a circular argument here. i don't see any way of continuing this debate because we just can't seem to agree on terminology, although i really enjoyed it. thank you.
     
    btw, here's a reference to the declairation of war by congress:
     

    "Iraq Resolution" and "Iraq War Resolution" are popular names for the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002,[1] a law passed by the United States Congress in October 2002 as Public Law No: 107-243, authorizing what was soon to become the Iraq War.

    i will concede that this is not a formal congressional declairation of war, it is a declairation authorizing military engagement. but let me ask you, if the media, the world public, and the president, who you say has direct military authority, calls it a war, is it not a war, authorized by an act of congress?

  • TinSoldier said on Nov 21, 2007....
    Yes, it is a war. It's just not a declared war which carries with it certain obligations with regards to international law. That's why countries don't really do it much any more.

    Hmm. I discussed this topic in another one of bloc's blogs somewhere... I'll have to see if I can find it.
  • TinSoldier said on Nov 21, 2007....
    Here you go:
    http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/93260/A-must-read
  • bloc said on Nov 21, 2007....
    I think you are both right :) For all intents and purposes it is a war, except one. In a very strict legal sense, which has serious implications, it is not a declared war.
  • TinSoldier said on Nov 21, 2007....
    Heh -- I think that our disagreement is more about what role the President has with regards to military hierarchy than whether this country is in either a de jure or a de facto war.
  • skymir said on Nov 23, 2007....

    You know, several states have secessionist (spelling?) parties. It’s not needed yet, in fact I don’t think we will live to see such a time. But if it became necessary that would be a very interesting time to be alive. To be born free is an accident but to die free, that is a responsibly.

  • crybabylu said on Nov 24, 2007....
    If that doesn't  stink to high heaven,  I don't know what does...But, I have said for years now that Republicans and Democrats are in bed together.  It is stuff like this that shows it.  Thank God, I woke up and am a LIbertarian.  The two pary system just keeps going in and out of a revolving door, like they are dancing.  "Oh. let's make a run for the White House, so we can get our friends in. and have a great big party!"
  • silverwhisper said on Nov 24, 2007....
    skymir: i wasn't aware that there are secessionist parties. do you recall what states do? i like that final sentence.

    dee: i gotta confess, some of the libertarian ideals (privatized highways?) just don't make a lot of sense to me.

    ed
  • crybabylu said on Nov 24, 2007....
    Oh Twyla, where are you?  Ed is saying not so kind stuff about us Libertarians....Get over her, Twyla, I need some back up!....haha!
  • silverwhisper said on Nov 24, 2007....
    c'mon, privatized highways are wacky, dee!

    ed
  • skymir said on Nov 24, 2007....

    SW; Alaska,  Hawaii, and Texas at least. There are a few others scattered across the continent, although none come to mind now. Understandably most are not often taken seriously (and some of them shouldn’t be.), but some are legitimate organized political parties.  About a year ago the Alaska supreme court refused to allow secessionist propositions on local ballots.

  • silverwhisper said on Nov 25, 2007....
    skymir: thank you, that was most educational. i suppose it shouldn't surprise me that hawaii and texas have secessionist parties, being somewhat familiar with the history. however, i know precious little about alaska. again, my thanks.

    ed

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