this is a difficult topic. and i will do my best to do it justice.
this is a theory, based on things i have read. i'm not claiming this to be provably true.
it is an opinion.
I was brought up believing in the bible as an infallible document written of god by men.
i no longer believe that, ....now,
moving on.
homosexuality is brought up in the bible a few times.
the story of lot in genesis and leviticus 18. which states it as an abomination, being the most widely quoted.
i believe that there wer/are three distinctly different forms of homosexuality practiced, one most common now, one most common in the time the old testament was written and one most common when the new testament was written.
the committed and loving relationship based on mutual attraction
the worship of pagan and other polytheistic gods
and the hedonistic lifestyle of greece and other similar cultures
homosexuality was widely practiced in ceremonial pagan and polytheist worship
ancient symbolism and statuary are full of phallic references, mostly for male gods of fertility, agriculture and war
masturbation became the first form of adding "male strength" to a god, therefore ensuring a bountiful harvest, or beating your enemies.
it became common practice for priests at a temple to perform oral sex on petitioners to aid in masturbation to this end.
young boys, mostly orphans or slaves would become life-time temple prostitutes to raise money for the temple, and in addition that the semen ejaculated would add "male strength" and power to their god.
men would have sex with each other at altars in honor of their chosen god, ........again, adding "male strength".
by some historical accounts it was common practice to kidnap men, who did not worship your particular god, for rape as an offering. If you take away the male strength of your enemy by this act of humiliation (in most of these cultures, including at a later date greece, accepting anal sex from a man without returning the favor was an effeminate act and frowned upon) while at the same time "depositing" your own male strength at the feet of your god....well then.....you will be unstoppable right?
this last point I believe to be the basis for the story of Lot.
in greece and in a few other cultures at the height of their hedonistic glory homosexuality was widely practiced and encouraged.
in greece for instance. the human body was regaled with such admiration that ugly or handicapped children were either left to starve, killed, or died in sacrifice to one of the many gods of beauty.
homosexuality in the military was strongly encouraged as a tool to promote comradeship. a soldier, by their reasoning, would fight harder to protect a lover or lovers.
it makes you wonder if this contributed to the might of the greek army. (no don't ask don't tell here!)
the only time homosexuality was looked on negatively was if it was exclusive or related to prostitution.
the family was not regarded as much more than just a tool to procreate.
all instruction of males was given to teachers and philosophers, the student expected to admire and respect his teacher, the teacher expected to gain the admiration and devotion of his student. Homosexual sex was expected as a valuable tool to gain these objectives between teacher and student.
A young boy entering into an apprenticeship could not only expect to have a homosexual relationship with his master, but his family would deny the continuance of his apprenticeship if this relationship was not maintained.
it was thought to tighten community and social bonds.
When other cultures came in contact with these practices i am sure they were shocked and would easily consider them to be an abomination.
as we now would in our culture.
hence the basis for the chapter in leviticus.
homosexuality as it is practiced and known today was not any more prevalent at that time than it is now.
the percentage of homosexuals has remained steady during the entire time it has been tracked.
these practices i've described and outlined above were artificial homosexuality proscribed by the culture in which they were introduced and developed. not the normal homosexuality found in all species.
the bible in my humble opinion is not condemning homosexuals or homosexuality......but the practice of either acts of worship of other religions.... (wouldn't expect the bible to do that now would we) or a hedonistic lifestyle which included the sodomizing of children.
both of which would be considered abominable acts in todays culture.
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Fallyn posted on Nov 14, 2007
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Comments
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lfbno7 said on Nov 15, 2007....
That was interesting. I view the Bible as something fraudulent, that includes many true stories but is fraudulent nonetheless because it lies to us about God. I don't view it as a friend. I certainly don't view it as anything holy. I think of it as something extremely unholy and deceitful. I see it as an old relic that belongs on library shelves next to Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology, and the religious beliefs of Africans, Indians, Eskimos, idiots, and anyone else who came up with anything. There are so many nice people who treasure it, and I don't want to alienate them, but that's how I view it. Utter nonsense, with some historical facts thrown in. I see it as vicious slander against the one who created us. Our creator is not the hammerhead who appears in the Adam and Steve story. Our creator is not the murderous lunatic who appears in the Noah and the impossibly rainy month and a half story. The Bible has a character who is a cross between Hitler and Charles Manson, and calls this character God. I don't know why people feel a need to revere such transparent nonsense. Then again, I don't know why Germany was on a mission to kill all the Jews. People in general puzzle me. They just seem so crazy, irrational, stupid, cruel. There's no sense in having high expectations. They worship a book of fables. Whatever. If you are on a search for truth, and you are wondering what to think of homosexuals, you would do well to completely ignore the Bible because it is insane. -
Fallyn said on Nov 15, 2007....
i agree. ....i do not believe it to be a work of a creator of any kind...real or not.
i haven't decided what i believe on where we all came from.
i have decided the bible is a false text and not from god.
the adam and eve story i believe to be a creation story in itself......cain and abel two separate civilizations who thrived near each other until one discovered agriculture.
written from the perspective of the people who weren't agriculturists.
it's the only way it makes sense.
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SeanRenaud said on Nov 15, 2007....
I won't start explaining the ignorance of the creation theory. That is enough for the moment on that.I'll instead point out that you cannot have civilizations without agriculture. Without the ability to grow food people cannot stay in one place, they are instead nomadic and would follow their only sourse of food, the herds. Perhaps occasionally eating whatever fruits and veggies they could find but obviously this wouldn't be their primary source of food because once gone it's simply gone.It's not impossible that a group of nomads who had discovered agriculture could be wiped out by one that hadn't. It's rather unlikely though. Well fed men don't often lose fights to hungry foes. Not to mention you usually have other advantages that seem to arise spontaneously once you get agriculture. Kinda like how we figured out "horseless carriage" and then quickly enough figured out planes, subs and space ships. Which led to Tang. -
bloc said on Nov 15, 2007....
There is a great book called "The Language Instinct". It's about linguistics, not religion, but there was a very interesting section where it used the Bible to show that language changes drastically over time.It took a single bible verse and showed it from 4 different english bibles from different periods of time. The point was to show how dramatically the english language has changed. What's amazing is that the oldest english version is a completely different language than modern english. It appeared as complete gibberish to me! This made it clear to me that I can't believe that the Bible is some kind of clear and universal source of truth.I was going to post it, but I had to return the book to the library before I got a chance. I need ot get it again so I can post those verses. -
Fallyn said on Nov 15, 2007....
sean renaud...i agree.....but is that truly better?....and is it necessary to grow more food than you need? an overabundance of food leads to over population every single time. ...oh...and you've gotten it backwards....the agriculturists wiped out the nomads.....but their story (the nomads)...in my belief lived on.
population and food production are linked on every level.
bloc, that would be incredibly interesting to me...please do.
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PassionTraveler said on Nov 15, 2007....
Very well researched and thought out, Fallyn. I too enjoy drawing my own conclusions rather than mindlessly following the herd.
I'm a Christian, but I do not believe completely in the doctrines of most Christian faiths, but instead believe in a loving (not a vengeful) God. I also believe that he is a part of us all, not apart from us all, as many doctrines imply, and neither is He something to be reached only by praying to saints or through clergy interference.
As for homosexuality and my beliefs there, I think it's a choice like anything else. I'm a firm believer in choice. Sometimes the choices we make are right for us, despite what the Good Book may claim, and sometimes the choices have consequences. Even if a choice is right, it may still have consequences. It's a matter of weighing the consequences of our choices to determine the best path for us.
Often, when someone is described as being fallible, especially if he/she is purported to be a Christian soul, I really hate the response a Bible-thumping Christian gives, "They are human." Like that is a bad thing to be. I'm incredibly proud of my humanity! We all should be. Even if that human choice leads me down a path the so-called Righteous deem unacceptable. It's a right choice for me, right now.
Just my two cents.
PT -
Fallyn said on Nov 15, 2007....
the reason i don't really believe homosexuality to be completely a choice is because there are instances of homosexuality in so many other species.....i just find it too hard to believe that fruit flies for instance are "choosing" to be homosexual. And i don't see humans as any different than other animals.
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lfbno7 said on Nov 15, 2007....
fruit flies are gay? you mean the ones buzzing around bananas? -
Fallyn said on Nov 15, 2007....
yes iffy, they have proven that fruit flies are gay at about the same percentage as humans....roughly 7% -
Fallyn said on Nov 15, 2007....
i'm looking for the reference.....it's been awhile since i read that.... -
desertsienna2 said on Nov 15, 2007....
I have no issue with gays and support their right to marriage and adoption. -
Fallyn said on Nov 15, 2007....
me neither. -
pookiedookie said on Nov 16, 2007....
Well, you seemed to have attempted to explain at least your connotation of religion, humanity, "fruit flies", and homosexuality. None of which was entirely accurate, but lines of truth here and there. There are many more truths to be explored thru out the bible. One can't pick a verse here and there and expect to have it all covered. No offense to anyone posting here, but why state that the bible is not factual, and the claim to have faith? One either believes it or one doesn't. -
Fallyn said on Nov 16, 2007....
pookie.....tell me which are not accurate....i'll be happy to find a reference...and if i can't....cede my point.
i don't know about anyone else...but i have not claimed to have faith.
and further more.....having faith can mean many different things....the christian bible is not the only document that needs faith to believe.
there are many different religions to have faith in. and many different versions of possibly the same god also.
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pookiedookie said on Nov 16, 2007....
Please excuse me Fallyn, I kind of ran my thoughts together. I agree in part with what you say about homosexuality, although I must admit that I haven't read some of the information you wrote anywhere else but here. I will leave you a link where I have been reading about homosexuality myself. and also from Wikipedia, which I won't link that. Anyone else can do so if they wish.About the religious aspect, I should have been more specific, I wasn't referring to what you said, but rather, Passion, 's post. And to her views on homosexuality, I don't nor many people that I personally know, believes it to be a choice.
thanks, Fallyn, it was an interesting read to see what you thought on the subject.
L., Duke.
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wantingmore said on Nov 16, 2007....
This is a very interesting post and thread of discussion. I am a lesbian (not by choice) and a Christian.
I believe, like PT, that God is a loving, and not a vengeful, God.
I believe that the bible, like any other work written by humans, is not always to be taken so literally, but that the stories and events recorded depict meaningful and significant occurences in Judeo-Christian history.
I believe that the bible portrays God in the Old and New Testaments differently.
I agree with bloc about language and translation and how, much like playing whisper down the lane, you can have a much different story at the end than what you had at the beginning.
Fallyn...it's obvious that you have done a lot of research and thinking on the subject and it certainly caught my attention. Thanks for posting this. I think that the comments here are quite insightful and I hope this discussion continues!
Oh...and I LOVED the fruit flies comment, Iffy!!!
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Fallyn said on Nov 16, 2007....
wanting....the one question i have that i haven't been able to answer through research ....is how they come up with a percentage in the first place.
how does bisexuality fit into the picture?
and yes, it's topic that has interested me for awhile now....
i was always wondering why greek statues were depicted with such small....... *clearing throat*
i believe i found my answer. :P
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wantingmore said on Nov 16, 2007....
Honestly, I don't know. 7% seems kinda low to me. And I'm not sure how bisexuality fits into the mix. You mentioned the Kinsey scale somewhere else...research has shown that people in general have tendencies both ways, just at varying levels or degrees that ultimately determine their sexuality. -
Fallyn said on Nov 16, 2007....
yeah.....despite the research on it i've done...the 7% seems a bit off to me too...and not at all taking into account any kind of scale....and i know there are people who aren't even ON the scale......pansexuals for example.
and thinking more about it i think i'm closer to a 2.5 or something. *laughing* i don't know....i haven't explored much so it's more of a guess. :P
i guess it's one of those things that doesn't really HAVE an answer. ......which is fine by me.....but then you get into the whole territory of people being stupid about it.
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lfbno7 said on Nov 16, 2007....
Wanting More - you OWE me. Because I fell in love with a lesbian, which is a pretty dopy thing to do if you are in a male body this time around. So kiss me, you fool. This will help restore the karmic balance between me and all lesbians, and thereby will probably end global warming. As they say, every action you take will have repercussions around the world. Smile to a child in America, and you are saving the life of a squirrel in Asia. Fart in America and you are killing a butterfly in Tanzania. -
Fallyn said on Nov 16, 2007....
*COMPLETELY FALLING OVER DYING LAUGHING*
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silverwhisper said on Nov 16, 2007....
for various reasons, i've always felt that the levitican prohibitions are more than mildly stupid to apply to christians. besides, notice the way some folks pick and choose their levitican prohibitions: gays are bad, but you don't see them committing wanton murder against pagans, do you?
ed -
wantingmore said on Nov 16, 2007....
Haaaaaaaaaaaa... Hugs and kisses, If!!! You are a stitch! And all is karmically right with the world. ;-) -
Fallyn said on Nov 16, 2007....
ed, well, exactly.
there are so many other places in the bible that the law is to the point of ridiculous.
i just woke up, so my mind isn't quite up to speed yet......but yes, you're point is well taken.
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lfbno7 said on Nov 16, 2007....
awwww.... -
crybabylu said on Nov 16, 2007....
Pookie: You sounded a little "cranky" , hope all is well with you... LOL, Aunt dee. -
dyingman said on Nov 16, 2007....
It's funny, holy rollers don't seem to have a problem eating shellfish (crabs, lobsters, clams) yet Leviticus proclaims this dining practice to be an abomination three times where it says same of homosexuality ONCE.
93% of the fundamentalist crowd find it easy to condemn homosexuality because all of them find it distasteful. If only Leviticus had condemned eating liver and Brussels sprouts, it would be so much easier to hate ALL abominations properly.
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Fallyn said on Nov 16, 2007....
dyingman.....i grew up seventh day adventist.....they don't eat shellfish.
but your point is still well taken. *grin*
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crybabylu said on Nov 17, 2007....
dyingman: How right you are! It always amazes me what "pet" sins people have.....L -
desertsienna2 said on Nov 17, 2007....
I come from a long line of military officers in my family and there was nothing gay about them, more something alcoholic. That was the only way they could communicate. The boy's club required drinking and there were no women around. (I don't think women should be in the army to begin with but anyways...) Nothing about the military encourages homosexuality. It does encourage a kind of brotherhood few people understand unless they went to an all-male private boarding school or something. -
lfbno7 said on Nov 18, 2007....
The impression I have of the military is that women who aren't officers themselves are often raped in the military. Not sure what "often" means, but my impression is that it is much higher than in the general population. These stories get a lot of attention. I'd be afraid to have a daughter of mine in the military at a rank below officer, for that reason. -
Fallyn said on Nov 18, 2007....
desert....um....i wasn't claiming there was anything in the military that was....not this military.
i was talking about ancient greece. i can find my references if you'd like?
i'm assuming your forefathers don't go all the way back to ancient greece.
iffy....it was all over the news in colorado a couple years ago....
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dyingman said on Nov 22, 2007....
The Greeks encouraged homosexual relations thinking men would fight for those they "loved". Few would argue the Greeks were a weak demoralized force.
As for 7th day adventists, I admire their commitment to consistency.
I do find it odd that some eschew wine when Jesus made some himself. Would the Adventists refuse Jesus' gift?
I suspect it's better to be a little too concerned about vice than not enough, though.
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Fallyn said on Nov 22, 2007....
how did they conquer most of europe then?
they believe it wasn't actually fermented. ....they believe that strong grape juice was called wine at that time "new wine" ....they believe it was just called that.
it doesn't actually make sense.
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lfbno7 said on Nov 22, 2007....
Few would argue the Greeks were a weak demoralized force? Huh? That's a beaut right there. That's one of those generalizations that's a real beaut. It comes from nowhere, it's based on nothing, it makes no sense, it's pure fantasy, it is contra-indicated by history, it's sort of like saying few would argue that Muslims are actually interested in religion. I guess all you have to do is pick a statement that strengthens your argument, whatever that is, and then add the words "few would argue" in front of it, and there ya go. -
Fallyn said on Nov 23, 2007....
iffy....have there been any armies through history that have conquered as much as the greeks? i can't think of any.....granted they did fall apart in the end......but from what i've discovered a lot of that was because of coming into so much contact with the peoples they'd overcome and the fabric of their society falling apart......and i also think it had a lot to do with alexander the great dying.
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lfbno7 said on Nov 23, 2007....
Dying man was just knocking gays, with something senseless and incorrect. Gays had made a really good army, so he was making up the lie that they were no damn good. Simple as that. And he used the device of starting it off with the phrase "few would argue", which is just a lot of hot air. I know when someone is blowing smoke up my ass. And I'm not gay so I don't like anything going up there.
There was an army that out-did the Greeks. It was the Mongols. They are the all time world champs. They conquered everything they could reach, and they reached all the way from east Asia into Europe. That means pretty much all of China and Russia, and some Middle East thrown in. China and Russia are HUGE.
The strange thing about the Mongols is that they probably could have had a lot more than they got. They might have been able to conquer all of Europe. Europe wasn't standing up to them as a unit. It was just a matter of knocking off one army at a time. The Mongols were undefeated. Then their emperor died, and all their armies were called home because of it. They didn't get stopped by an opposing army. They got stopped because they were called back home. So it's conceivable that the Mongols could have conquered every single country in Europe and Asia, and if they did, our history would have been very different, with a huge Mongol influence. As it is, they are just an afterthought in history because Europe is king and the Mongols never took it.
You ever go to a Mongolian barbecue joint? They throw all kinds of food into a big bowl, toss some spices and sauces into it too, and mix it all up together, noodles, veg's, meats, whatever. -
Fallyn said on Nov 23, 2007....
iffy...well....in all fairness the greek army wasn't gay. i think there's a difference between homosexuality in itself and homosexual sex.
men who were exclusively into other men were still shunned.
i'm not saying it was the best society. just saying that it was most likely (in my opinion) what the bible was basing it's teachings off of.
and mongolian cooking sounds goooood.
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silverwhisper said on Nov 23, 2007....
lbf: i don't read dyingman's comments as having that meaning at all: indeed, i read them as meaning the opposite.
ed -
lfbno7 said on Nov 23, 2007....
My first reaction is that a gay basher is calling the Greeks weak and demoralized, in connection with the fact that the Spartan army was having sex with itself. If that's not it, then I don't know what the point was. I suppose I could take a guess or two. I think it could use one more sentence to clarify the point. Maybe some other way to stitch the first sentence to the second. Gay bashers are so common, it was a likely explanation. Maybe he's not, it's ambiguous. Gay bashers annoy me. Like break a garbage can over their head, that kind of annoyance. Well, hopefully my conclusion is incorrect and he wasn't bashing anybody. Just need a little more clarity, that's all. -
faulty_perfection said on Nov 29, 2007....
Turn from your sin ... God loves you!Genesis 1:27-28: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply
Leviticus 18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination
Deuteronomy 23:17: There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel
1 Kings 14:24: There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
1 Kings 15:12: He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made
1 Kings 22:46: He rid the land of the rest of the male shrine prostitutes who remained there even after the reign of his father Asa.
2 Kings 23:7: He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes, which were in the temple of the LORD and where women did weaving for Asherah.
Romans 1:26-27: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."
1Corithians 6:9-10: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate nor abusers of themselves with mankind Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:9-10: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine."
Jude 1:7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire
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Fallyn said on Nov 29, 2007....
and? -
bloc said on Nov 29, 2007....
the funniest part is that Christians don't even come close to living up to their own standards. These quotes make it quite clear that having sex for pleasure is just as sinful as having gay sex. Yet I don't see the same hatred we see directed at gays also directed at people that have heterosexual sex for the pleasure of it. -
Fallyn said on Nov 29, 2007....
those texts did not in any way negate what my point was.
and yes, exactly......sex for pleasure in any form is sinful.
i guess that's where the catholics stance on birth control comes from.
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silverwhisper said on Nov 30, 2007....
i'm always irritated by these drive-by scriptural bombardments.
ed -
anonymous said on Nov 30, 2007....
Don't hate 'cuz you're wrong. You know sex is strictly for procreation. Anything else - i.e. gay sex and sex for pleasure - is totally sinful. Come to your senses, people!!The Bible is the inerrant word of God - to be taken literally. I don't understand why you people don't accept it. -
bloc said on Nov 30, 2007....
I'm merely trying to figure out why those that do accept it demonize gay people, but not themselves for having sex for pleasure ;) -
silverwhisper said on Nov 30, 2007....
"sex is strictly for procreation"? that's just patently stupid.
ed -
bloc said on Nov 30, 2007....
but it's what hte bible says. At least, that's how I interpret it. -
silverwhisper said on Nov 30, 2007....
true. if one believes all the things in the bible as anonymous seems to think is appropriate, i wonder when the last time was that he/she/it committed murder and killed a pagan.
ed -
bloc said on Nov 30, 2007....
i'm thinking anon was doing a parody of a true believer. -
silverwhisper said on Nov 30, 2007....
[lets scales fall away from eyes]
ah...that would make sense. one sees an awful lot of that said quite seriously though...
ed -
SeanRenaud said on Nov 30, 2007....
Yeah, with ALIEN and even though he's sane and less offensive Truth running around these parts it's difficult to tell who is telling the truth and who is being sarcastic. -
bloc said on Nov 30, 2007....
too true. I'm endlessly amazed that caricatures like Steven Colbert are not exaggerations, but identical to many wingnuts. -
Fallyn said on Nov 30, 2007....
a book like the bible....IMHO, you either have to take literally......and follow every premise as your belief dictates, ........or...if you cannot....drop it from your belief system.
as for me.....i try to follow the way jesus lived.
i'm not a christian.........but so many of the things he did.......were just ....right.
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controlfreak said on Feb 18, 2008....
I will pray for you Fallyn. I've caught up on most of your blogs and now I understand why you have so much confusion in your life. (kids w/o their father, you being lonely and your other issues.) You don't truly know Jesus Christ and you try to discredit His word. And until you do, you will have turmoil in you're life, not because He is an God who wants to see you hurt, but because He's a God that wants to love you and wants to be first in your life.
It's funny how you can choose to believe and misinterpet bits and pieces of the bible that suit you..such as the bible condones gay sex. But also pointing out that it's "sinful to condone in heterosexual sex". Which one is it? How could you NOT be a christian but want to follow the way Jesus lived?
Jesus died for you and me because we were/are sinners. Not because He was simply a "good man" He was the "God in the flesh" and He wants to save you from your sins and your hurts. Just ask Him to come into your heart and save you. Because it is clear that you are a body of contradictions that as you said "Is looking for something to believe in." May God bless you.
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SeanRenaud said on Feb 18, 2008....
Not believing in the Bible doesn't make Jesus a bad person. I'm not goign to say that I subscribe to a what would Jesus do, because to me it's kinda like a asking what would Merlin do? I can't turn wine to water, I can't feed a crowd with two loaves of bread and three fish (well not unless I use whale shark but that's you know cheating.) I can't heal my friends so I'm not going to tell them not to defend themselves and I don't believe in Heaven (much less is my father a diety) so I'm not going to allow myself to die. Many of his examples simply don't hold up to what I believe the real world is.) But a charachter being fictional has no bearing on their ability to be a positive role model.The Good Samaritan is fake (even Jesus claims this story to be parable not fact so even if the Bible were true, this story is still merely a story) but it's still a very good example to live by. -
Fallyn said on Feb 18, 2008....
controlfreak.....a. i was raised loving god.....following all of it.....on and on and on.
the guilt of all of it was a lot......and then i grew up.
i'm happier now. .....MUCH happier now than when i was growing up.
life is still hard. the key word being STILL.
but at least i'm not blindfolded about it.
sean....i'm not claiming to try to perform miracles. *laughing*
his non judgmental stance and kindness is where i'm coming from.
one of the only things my dad showed me about how to live.
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SeanRenaud said on Feb 19, 2008....
My comment wasn't aiming at you, I was making fun of the statement that if you don't believe in Jesus why would you want to be like him. I was rather defending you. -
controlfreak said on Feb 19, 2008....
The "guilt" of it all? Sweetheart, that's called conviction. That simply means that you know (and believe) God's word all too well and you choose to ignore it or discredit it as so many others do. The ten commandments tend to get in the way of allot of people's lifestyles so they simply choose to find fault with it or most unbelieveably of all...create false gods or religions. (Islam, Scientology, Henduism, etc..)
God's words cannot be changed or altered no matter how much people try. Living by all of them successfully is not easy by any means, (believe me..I know. I have my own issues. *lol*) but that's why Jesus died on the cross for you and rose on the third day so that we could be free of our sins, and not go to a burning hell when He returns. To want to be like Jesus is a wonderful thing, but you can't want to be like someone and not believe in their works and what they stood for. It's almost an oxymoron. If you believe in Him, you believe in ALL of Him, not just the parts you think were "good".
Maybe you didn't have the right people to watch and learn from growing up regarding how a true christian should live but that doesn't mean that God's word isn't what it is. As you have shown, they are just lost and looking for something..anything, to fill a missing void in their spirit. But it's right there and has always been right there. The path to Hell is broad and wide but the road to salvation is narrow. Have a blessed day.
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Fallyn said on Feb 19, 2008....
sean.......*grin* understood now.
control.....well....i'm an artist.....when i find i can't express myself freely....and am only allowed to paint pictures of jesus with children in beautiful gardens......
well...it gets a little old. ...okay ...a LOT old.
just SO much of it didn't make sense....and then less and less of it made sense.
the more i tried to trust in god the more i tried to rely on him .....the worse and worse i felt inside.
when i finally got past it.....let it go.....stopped trying to force it to be real despite the evidence that i was seeing....
that was the point that the suicidal thoughts.....the wish to hurt myself.....the serious depression.....all finally started to go away.
this wasn't a whim.....it wasn't a lightly made decision....it was years worth of soul searching, pain, research and praying.
when i made that decision......my life started improving.
there isn't really anything that could persuade me to try it again.
i was a christian for most of my life.......my parents were very active in the church.....i grew up in christian schools.
there is just entirely too much that i grew up with that i don't agree with and don't believe is right to live that lifestyle anymore.
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controlfreak said on Feb 19, 2008....
You know Fallyn, I find myself going through the same thing now with God and soulsearching. Trying to find out exactly who I am in Christ, what my true purpose is this earth and what exactly it is that God wants me to do. And to be completely honest with you. It ain't easy. Allot of times I want to just discard my faith and fall back into all of the things that seemed so much easier to do and sooo much easier to feel.
It all seems to much at times to ALWAYS be the good person and rely on faith when I'm not always exactly sure how things are gonna work out. But you know what? Nobody ever said being a christian was easy. If it was, then everyone would be one and everyone would go to heaven. But they don't. You're life is so much easier now because you aren't living by God's rules anymore. You're living by Satan's. I'm not saying you are a bad person, not at all. You may do all kinds of good things for others. But the bible says good deeds alone will not get a man (or woman) into heaven.
If you're not living for Christ, or at least acknowledge Him as your Lord and Savior then you're living by Satan's rules and in Satan's evil world. And I've found when you do that the devil will make life VERY easy for you. Endulging in all of your fantasies, tempations, urges and doing wrong by others is very easy to give in too.
Only when you take up your cross for Christ will all havoc in your life begin like there was no tommorrow. And God will allow it to a degree to find out if you really love and trust Him enough to know that He will be there for you. Satan wants to keep you as his soldiers. I pray and urge you not to let him. I definently have my days where I want to give up, but I will NEVER denounce my faith no matter how bad things might seem.
I know that there is a purpose for me and I want to go to heaven. I also KNOW there is a purpose for you and I want you and your beautiful daughters to go as well. Please reconsider as I will pray, not only you but all of the non-believers on this forum. Jesus loves you all and He wants you to come back to Him. It's never too late. Never to late...
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Fallyn said on Feb 20, 2008....
i don't care to go to heaven.
call that blasphemy if you will. but there is VERY little about heaven that actually appeals to me.
also. god has promised that he won't give a person more to deal with than they can handle.
i cannot call being suicidal.......trying to hurt yourself, and seriously neglecting your children in the process "handling it"
if it was a test....*shrug* i failed.......and quit the test before it killed me.
quite literally.
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SeanRenaud said on Feb 20, 2008....
Good for you Fallyn. It's just a shame that you had to get to that point. -
Fallyn said on Feb 20, 2008....
it is isn't it. -
PieterOpie said on Jan 27, 2009....
If god has sex on a regular basis then I firmly believe he would have gay sex about a third of the time. He is after all, perfect.
If he created us then that is reflected in the animal kingdom - as it is in heaven.
What was written in the Bible - a suspect tome, then try to remember the words were re-translated to death and only express a bigoted opinion to begin with in the first place. I would not take anything in the bible as gospel.
I did NOT choose to be gay. Given my life all over again and know what I know now, THEN I WOULD CHOOSE TO BE GAY.... ABSOLUTELY YES!!!!!!
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Fallyn said on Jan 27, 2009....
yes....but did it make SENSE?? -
PieterOpie said on Jan 27, 2009....
did what make sense? being gay?
My parents were crazy. Much made no sense....
Sex was dirty. It was ever since I was a little boy. I was forever playing doctor and nurses much to the chagrin of my parents. They used to make me feel so bad about it. I never did understand why. Later as I "practised" medicine I specialised and urology had a definite lure to it. Then as a young teen I read an article in a dutch magazine about gays in Amsterdam and something clicked. I think I knew then that being gay was a "thing" and I was likely part of that thing.
Things clarified in the ensuing years. After a brief pretense at being straight I finally came out to my parents during a confrontation on the matter. I knew then I had to face it. I did. After a year of ups and downs and drama my parents came to their senses and became very supportive and loving parents. Mind you they were still crazy and drank too much. You can't have everything.
At age 20-21 I met a guy and we have been together ever since. That was in 1974.
Our relationship has undergone a few changes but we do still live together. I expect we always will.
Neither one has wanted to marry nor have babies. Only now is life begining to make sense - sort of. It will make complete sense at the moment of my death or just before or after it. I am looking forward to that.
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PieterOpie said on Jan 27, 2009....
BTW.... I like your article. hehe I completely forgot. I get so carried away when talking about my favourite topic - ME.....
heeeee heeeee heeeeeeeee heeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!
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Fallyn said on Jan 27, 2009....
*grin* that's what i meant......what you thought of it...i appreciate it. ..it's probably one of the only things in my life i've ever researched. *laughing*
oh....um......except for the whole fashion through history as it relates to society and politics and prejudices and behaviors ....... does fashion affect society......does society affect fashion .....and why, and how......etc. ....i'm always doing that research.....and just ran into this in the process and HAD to write about it.
i think it's cool you've found someone to spend your life with. ......most non gays don't ever even do that.
not happily anyway.
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PieterOpie said on Jan 27, 2009....
You mean..... I just spilled my guts about my perverted childhood and coming out, not to mention my insane parents FOR NOTHING!!!????
Oh.... OK then.
My mother once said as a homo I would end up sad and alone in my old age and die miserably. I am just deteminded to prove her wrong.... that's all. (LOL) We hate each other and throw plates and hi-heels at each other. He has a young boyfriend who I tease with sarcastic insults and I have two dogs that he yells at. It all works really well. He take my dogs to the vet and I discuss internet stuff with the young whore slut pig slut......
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Fallyn said on Jan 27, 2009....
*giggling* my mom is insane too......we get along only because i'm to cowed from my childhood to go against her.
she's a churchy person too....but really doesn't belong there.
we spend a lot of time talking about how ridiculous my sister is.
leaving the church would make her face demons in herself that she's not ready to face.
i like that throwing hi heels at each other. *grin* i wish i could throw a pair at my mother.
how old were you when you came out?
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PieterOpie said on Jan 27, 2009....
I was 19. I wish I could be that age again...... my god... I was so naivé in those days.
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Fallyn said on Jan 28, 2009....
me too. *sad*
i was isolated to the point of ridiculous until i started sneaking online......met my ex.....got pregnant ......stayed in a psychotic relationship with him for ten years......
my life had only just started and i threw it all away.
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PieterOpie said on Jan 28, 2009....
You only had a false start. The best years are still to come. That's the beauty of mistakes. Through them we are prepared for life and easier times ahead. Just try to avoid doing the same thing again. That is what life is; lessons which lead to a better understanding of ourselves and the world in which we live. Pain really can mean gain.
Take back your life and forge ahead and take it easy. One day at a time.
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Fallyn said on Jan 29, 2009....
that is what i am doing.
i fluctuate between those two beliefs......all the weight i gained during that relationship didn't help.......that's probably my biggest hurdle right now.
sometimes i just wish i could fast forward to the end and figure out what happens so i could at least know if i get to start over......or if it really is heaven and hell.
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PieterOpie said on Jan 29, 2009....
Ahhh yes, the old heaven and hell business. That strikes me as being very open to interpretation, perhaps even more so than the god thing.
I like the idea that if we are "good" we will go toward living in an earthly heaven and if not then we make our own hell. That is often the way it seems to go for many people although certainly not always. It does not allow for the rewards garnered from evil deeds or the suffering of the innocent. In those cases you need more time - like an after life. However we cannot know what that holds for us.
Let us assume that there is reincarnation and that way all kinds of things get sorted out.
Incidently, before the church forbade it (among many other things) early christians believed in reincarnation. I also believe they used to have female priests as well. When the catholics grabbed power they changed all kinds of things to restrict who got to benefit and who did not. Men have been pricks for a long time. Although it is believed that there has been at least one female pope in history. She put a sock down her pants.... and she did wear the triple crown.
Who knew??? Jesus I guess. Oh yeah.... and his dad.... and mum.... and so forth....
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Fallyn said on Jan 31, 2009....
*grin* so true. -
dyingman said on Feb 16, 2009....
lfbno7,
My point was that the Greeks were formidable warriors but homosexuality was commonplace among them. It flies in the face of homophobes who claim that inclusion of gay men in teh military would compromise its effectiveness.
Tolerance of homophobia might, but not the homosexuality itself.
Gay bashing? Hardly.
I noted some Bible worshippers commenting. Worship God. Not a book written by fallible mortal hands. The Bible speaks of a fountain that was 3 times as long around as it was across. That is, its circumference was three times its diameter. A mathematical impossibility.
If you want to claim esitmates are allowed and 3 was close enough to pi... well then you've just acknowledged that not everything in the Bible is rendered plain. Interpretation is mandatory and the interpretation you've been given at your church is only correct because you have been told it is since you were a babe by teh parents that were told their truth since THEY were babes with teh responsible parties lost to teh mists of time. One fallible human after another playing a cross generational game of "Operator" and prepared to condemn others for their fiath.
It is not faith in God you profess so strongly but the perfection of your ancestors. A dubious foundation for one's life to be built upon.
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Fallyn said on Feb 16, 2009....
an entire verse can be changed by the typo of a single comma.
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