• the_infernal_optimist said on Nov 09, 2007....

  Hmm...I'll go with $450/month - I have no idea how large the gap is in cost of living/stuff like that between where I am and where you are, so that might be laughably low.
  
  I know that here, for basic half-decent insurance (which we don't have - we have cut-rate crap), it would cost us (family of 4, mid-20s with a 2yo and a 5-month-old and basically perfect health) around $550/month.
  
  ~Infernal
  

• fearing said on Nov 09, 2007....

  My first guess was $900/month but thought that unreal so my second guess is $650/month.  The guess is for the whole family of 3 correct? 
  This is a SORE subject with me being a single mom.  Health care/insurance is insane in this country.  @#$W#$(!((#@ ~  Sorry, I'm trying to be nice and not get on my soap box.  Very few things get my blood pressure up like this does. 
  How close am I to the correct answer?
  

• fearing said on Nov 09, 2007....

  oh, p.s. - happy for you and your wife that she gets to stay home with the little one.  that is worth its weight in gold.  

• bloc said on Nov 09, 2007....

  yes, it's for the whole family, and it doesn't include dental or vision. Those aren't very expensive ( although I just payed about a grand, on top of our insurance, for 5 white fillings :/ )
  
  
  btw, I'll give the answer tomorrow.
  
  

• fearing said on Nov 09, 2007....

  Bloc, I saw your other post with the healthcare link.  I haven't had time to look at it yet.  I see this is not a good subject with you either.  So far, unless you are wealthy or your job pays for it, I don't know anyone who can actually afford insurance.  Add that to the gas prices and it won't matter anyway because who will have the money for the gas to drive to the doctor's office?  I'll be calling my elderly neighbor to sew up a wound with her sewing kit.  I suppose I'll give up one of the little luxuries of life like food or the roof over my head to pay for medical and gas expenses.  Thank heavens I have electric heat.   UGGGGH!  Boy that makes me mad!

• bloc said on Nov 09, 2007....

  healthcare is one of the issues I care deeply about. Fortunately, my wife and I are in a good position, she's a teacher that gets good benefits. But I know how hard it is for many of my family members. 

• secretlife said on Nov 09, 2007....

  My guess is $750 month.

• TinSoldier said on Nov 09, 2007....

  I would guess about $950 a month, not counting dental, accidental death or disability, or vision. I was originally going to guess $1250-$1500 a month but then I took a quick look at my own benefits which cost about 2/3 that.

• bloc said on Nov 09, 2007....

  I guess there are enough guesses to answer early. 
  
  
  It's $800/month
  
  
  I was a bit surprised at this amount, I thought it would be around 500 or 600. How in the world is someone around the median american income supposed to afford this? More importantly, how are american businesses supposed to remain competitive if they bear these costs when other countries have much lower healthcare costs (and those other countries cover everyone)!
  
  
  This is one of the most pressing issues in America, more so than social security or the other boogey men we are often told of. Here is an important quote form the director of the Congressional Budget Office
  
  

  The first emphasizes a point I’ve also tried to get at:

  The long-term fiscal condition of the United States has been largely misdiagnosed. Despite all the attention paid to demographic challenges, such as the coming retirement of the baby-boom generation, our country’s financial health will in fact be determined primarily by the growth rate of per capita health care costs.

• TinSoldier said on Nov 09, 2007....

  Dude, like the torture issue, I don't disagree.
  
  My own healthcare costs just over $800 a month, of which I pay about $200 out of my paycheck and the company covers the rest as part of my compensation.
  

• the_infernal_optimist said on Nov 09, 2007....

  Holy crap!! That's creeping toward half of what DH brings home every month, and you have one less person!
  
  We thought even $550 was ridiculous, given that you can rent a nice 2br apt. here for $650.
  
  It seems that unless you're extremely poor or fairly well off, you're just plain screwed on insurance.
  
  ~Infernal
  

• ALIENated said on Nov 09, 2007....

  Let the government pay for it, right. Where do you think that money comes from?
  YOUR TAXES. OUR TAXES. With socialized medicine tax payers are footing the bill
  for everyone and their illegal families. Plus, the reason prices are so high now is
  because doctore and hospitals know insurance will pay it. I thought you were a
  mathematician. Where is your logic. Do the math. And I thought you said you
  had a daughter already who is half Mexican. Do you just say anything?
  

• TinSoldier said on Nov 09, 2007....

  Dude, dude, dude! No need to be so offensive.
  
  "Their illegal families"? I don't have an illegal family. What the hell is an "illegal family" anyway? What is this, fucking China?
  
  "the reason prices are so high now is because doctors and hospitals know insurance will pay it." Big fat duh there, man.
  
  "Let the government pay for it, righ. Where do you think that money comes from? YOUR TAXES. OUR TAXES." Again, big fat duh. Who is the government? Some alien institution imposed upon us by the Vogons? Or is the government actually us? (At least in a putative democracy).
  
  Not that I believe in nationalized health care, but I believe that healthcare is enough of a national problem that the national government needs to show some leadership and that we as a nation need to figure out how to fix the problems with it.
  

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  alien rarely makes sense. I like to let him talk because he never fails to discredit himself and neocons in general.
  
  
  As I've said many times, and it's widely reported and sourced, that other industrialized countries pay far less per capita than we do for healthcare and they cover everyone and they have better care in general. 
  
  @alien
  "And I thought you said you had a daughter already who is half Mexican. Do you just say anything?"
  
  You are the one that always says that unborn children are full fledged human beings. I'm sure you can do the math, look at when I said it and you'll see that my wife was well into her pregnancy at that time. 

• silverwhisper said on Nov 10, 2007....

  holy hell, bloc!
  
  btw: that's some grade a snark. :D
  
  ed

• secretlife said on Nov 10, 2007....

  i agree that the state of healthcare in our country today is a disgrace.
  i do not agree that socialized medicine is the answer.
   
  one thing i'd like to see bloc is for teachers and other civil/gov't workers to have to 'chip in'  to pay for their healthcare.  And I'd like taxpayers to have to stop paying for their healthcare after retirement.
   
  i do not understand why one sector of society should be 'excused' from this burden at MY expense.
   
  fair is fair.
   
  everyone can't know the burden if everyone isn't paying equally ---
  i have some relatives who are policemen-
  they get full medical benefits after 20 years service---- FOR LIFE!!!!.
  I guarantee you they don't see health care as the most serious issue.

• Cussane said on Nov 10, 2007....

  While universal healthcare may not be everyone's cup of tea (and thier is a difference between socialized healthcare and universal healthcare) any nation which considers themselves progressive must address the healthcare needs of thier citizens without having them spend a large portion of thier take home pay.  Most western and European nations have addressed the need for healthcare and there is no reason why the US cannot do the same.  And yes I am Canadian and no I do not pay sky high taxes to have universal health care, I pay 933.00 per year for a family of four which is the highest rate payable under the healthcare tax system.
   
  Cussane

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  "i do not understand why one sector of society should be 'excused' from this burden at MY expense."
  
  Frankly, there is no way a highly educated and sane person would take the job of teaching if you took away their benefits considering they get paid so little compared to others with a similiar education. 
  
  
  Also, we have to be wary of reducing debates into black and white. I.e. socialized medicine vs. free markets. There is a lot of area between those two poles. I personally do not believe that markets work for everything, but I do believe that they are the best bet for most things. One of the areas they don't work well for is healthcare. We get get in a major car accident and get helicoptered to a trauma center you aren't exactly a discerning consumer that can make rational choices and research your options. Also, the easiest way to make a profit in the insurance game is to deny service to people. Another way, which happens in America, is to refuse to give insurance to people with certain conditions.
  
  
  However, this doens't force us to conclude that pure government medicine is the option. None of hte democrats plans are fully socialized medicine. Most of their plans share some basic traits. They require everyone to have insurance, they require insurance companies to insure everyone, they regulate some of hte issues I mention above, and they allow us to choose a government run program over a private if we want. This sounds like a good compromise between socilized medicine and the shit we have now which in my opinion is worse than socialized medicine.
  
  

  
  

• secretlife said on Nov 10, 2007....

  i live in NJ bloc --- teachers here make a very good salary.  When you take into account summer's off and all the other time off embedded in the school year, i don't think teaching is really such a bad option.
   
  when i taught high school 25 yrs ago, my starting salary was about 14K.
  now the average starting salary is somewhere around 40K.   The average teacher's salary is over 57K.
   
  I don't get summer's off, and i get 8 paid days off a year outside vacations.
  I think teacher's get a whole lot more time off than i do.
   
  and i still think they should have to 'chip in' for their healthcare and benefits ----
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  My wife started at $42k. the average cost of a home out here is over $500k. I hire programmers straight out of college for about $65k and they quickly see their salary go up to around $80k-$100k. After about 5 years my wife makes about $50k. 
  
  
  She also works her ass off during the school year, and works far more hours during that period than most other professionals I know. Not all teachers do that, but it's almost required to be a good teacher. 
  
  
  How much is the median cost of a home in NJ? Does around 50k really sound like a lot for that level of home cost? You and I both live in high cost of living areas and teaching salaries are substantially hire in these areas. We once looked at moving to some lower cost areas and the wages for teachers were shocking. here is the clark county pay schedule (lower cost of living). Here is the los angeles pay scale where the average home costs over 500k. I'll let everyone make up their own mind.

• TinSoldier said on Nov 10, 2007....

  I have to disagree with taking away the benefits of teachers and cops and firefighters. They do pay for their benefits, just because it isn't a line item on their pay stub. And in many states their retirement plans are funded out of their paystubs anyway, and invested in markets just like many other people's.
  
  Do you think that military veterans should be treated the same way -- have their health care costs deducted from their paychecks and cut off their medical insurance at retirement?
  
  Plus my reading of some teachers is that they don't necessarily take the entire summer off, and they are required to keep up on their professional studies -- at their own cost to do so.
  
  Personally, I get about 3-4 weeks paid vacation (but I'm not a teacher or other government employee). Also, while $57K is more than I make in a year, I don't think that it's all that much.
  

• secretlife said on Nov 10, 2007....

  i left teaching and went into IT because i saw very clearly that 14K wasn't going to get me a home in NJ.
   
  btw, i don't hire programmers out of college for 65K that's for sure.
   
  in fact, programmers out of college start at around the same salary as teachers in NJ.
   
   
  tin?  who is going to pay for my medical benefits at retirement?

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  "Also, while $57K is more than I make in a year, I don't think that it's all that much."
  
  especially when compared to other professionals with 5 years of college education. Comparing teachers salaries to that of people with only a high school education is comparing apples to oranges. It also takes a bit under 10 years for a teacher to make $57k. Look at the Los Angeles teachers pay chart I linked. 

• TinSoldier said on Nov 10, 2007....

  secretlife: Sounds like something you need to work out with your employer. I guess you made that choice when you left teaching?
  
  Me, I've got my 401K and Social Security and Medicare -- hopefully it will be enough. And hopefully this country straightens out its healthcare crisis by the time I need to pay more for my medical benefits.
  
  That doesn't mean that I want to take benefits away from others who have bargained for them in good faith.
  
  
  bloc: Yeah, and I don't have four years of college education and I'm supporting a family of five on about $50K or so. And we're just barely getting by (near Portland, Oregon).
  

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  we are very selective with the programmers we hire. I've learned that hiring mediocre programmers at a lower salary costs more in the long run than hiring good ones at a higher salary. 
  
  
  Let's get this back on topic :) healthcare in america needs fixing.

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  I want to come back to secret's point about forcing people to pay for their own insurance. I'm guessing that the reason is for them to see what it's really like. I've certainly felt this way before about similar issues, but in the end I don't believe it to be a wise choice solely for the reason of opening peoples eyes. 
  
  
  If we can't show people the facts and persuade them with reason then we simply can't solve many of lifes problems. We can't force rich people to be poor in order to understand the plight of the empoverished. We can't force white people to be black to understand the need for civil rights, And, back to healthcare, we can't force healthy people to be sick and denied service by an insurance company in order to convince them that we need to fix our healthcare system. 
  
  
  I'm sure you also wanted to reduce government spending, but I would do it in a different way. Our society needs good teaches and you yourself left because of the pay. Now imagine if the benefits sucked as well. I think we can reduce government spending by fixing our healthcare system so it doesn't cost so much more than other countries. It won't reduce spending as much as taking away peoples free benefits, but it will help and hopefully we'll get more good teachers.

• CopsExtrodinaire said on Nov 10, 2007....

  soulcast cannot be to picky with the programmers they hire..look at you and the weasel. Huh.

  I think all repatriots, such as yourself and the weasel, should be made to pay double the average rate. you contribute nothing and expect everything..patooey.

  Ya'll make me want to puke anyhow.

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  I think cops forgot to take his medicine today. Ed isn't a programmer and I work for a jewelry company. 

• quietone said on Nov 10, 2007....

  OMG, I had no idea healthcare was so expensive.   I figured out of pocket was about $350...where the heck have I been!!  I figure it is just a snowball affect...Drs charge more, insurance has to pay more, and it all falls back on the people.  How much did it cost just to give birth to your child bloc?  A room in a hospital is outragous...when is it all going to stop...when everyone is broke and the only ones that can afford anything are people on welfare? 
  I am single and if I lost my job with my benefits I would definately be screwed...and at any given time this is only a paycheck away. 
  How do other countries do their health care...like Canada? 
  Its not just healthcare that is in trouble in this country now...its a LOT more.
   

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  we have insurance so the birth was covered. Canada have universal coverage for everyone. 

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2007....

  Here's what I'm talking about.
  
  

  One of the state’s largest health insurers set goals and paid bonuses based in part on how many individual policyholders were dropped and how much money was saved.

  Woodland Hills-based Health Net Inc. avoided paying $35.5 million in medical expenses by rescinding about 1,600 policies between 2000 and 2006. During that period, it paid its senior analyst in charge of cancellations more than $20,000 in bonuses based in part on her meeting or exceeding annual targets for revoking policies, documents disclosed Thursday showed.

  Health Net had sought to keep the documents secret even after it was forced to produce them for the hearing, arguing that they contained proprietary information and could embarrass the company. But the arbitrator in the case, former Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Sam Cianchetti, granted a motion by lawyers for The Times, opening the hearing to reporters and making public all documents produced for it. Read on…

• silverwhisper said on Nov 11, 2007....

  o good, JD's back. i've been missing his brand of attention whoring and stupidity.
  
  OK, that's really not true. i haven't missed either. :>
  
  ed

• CopsExtrodinaire said on Nov 15, 2007....

  Weasel the only thing you miss is your ability to create a harmony with the environment you reside in. A more imbecilic human form I have not found on planet earth. Xenophobia is NOT MY short coming but it has it's origins in your oriental genes.

  bloc and you were hatched from the same rotten egg that was unearthed from the Paleozoic age and has nether merit nor value. You ignorance of the world and the existence of "other" entities outside your cramped putrid microscopic universe shows sadly every time you allow someone to read your exchanges to you.

  Good luck in the future. I have a feeling you shall need it. Lie cheat and steal all you wish but it IS coming to an end. Mark my words..worms of the earth have better respect from me. they have a purpose. What is or are (collectively ) yours?

  Me..?? Attention whore. Who is on day after day writing diatribe for all to see and oh and ah over? Me? No, I don't think so. Frankly when you tell others you are going to be "gone" for a period of time it gives you just such a rush when others tell you just how much you'll be missed. Oh I miss you as well..just like the tiny pimple on my ass..broooo ha ha ha...don't get it all?? Nah..I am not surprised.

  As soulcast on it's way out. Yes. It sure is with people (employees such as the two of you)..deny it all you wish..you are so used to lying..how can you tell any longer?

• bloc said on Nov 15, 2007....

  For a cop you aren't very observant. ed and I live on opposite sides of the country.

• silverwhisper said on Nov 16, 2007....

  no, you just don't think, maynard, and everyone knows it. but by all means: please do keep running your pie-hole and prove right everything i've ever said about you. :>
  
  the best argument in support of anything i've said about you is you yourself, maynard. you never fail to amuse. :D
  
  ed

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