• bloc said on Oct 19, 2007....

  Let me clarify my position a bit. The west bank and gaze were captured by force of arms by israel. The residents have had their homes and land taken from them so that israel can build settlements.
  
  
  "The establishment and expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have been described as violations of the fourth Geneva Convention and as "having no legal validity" by the UN Security Council in resolutions 446, 452, 465 and 471. These resolutions were made under Chapter VI of the United Nations Charter which relates to the "Pacific Settlement of Disputes" between parties, and as such have no enforcement mechanisms and are generally considered to have no binding force under international law. [9] [10] [11] [12][13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] Israel has chosen not to heed them. The International Court of Justice has asserted in paragraph 120 of its Advisory Opinion of 9 July 2004 that the settlements are illegal. The International Court of Justice has also asserted in an Advisory Opinion that "[i]t is not possible to find in the Charter any support for" the view that only enforcement measures adopted under Chapter VII of the Charter are binding.[21] The European Union[22] and the General Assembly of the United Nations[23] consider the settlements to be illegal."

• gingersoul said on Oct 19, 2007....

  Bloc........i am very saddened by LF's reaction.

  I watched the extremely interesting reportage of Christiane Amanpour on Cnn last week. It was called 'God's warrior". In that specific episode she approached the topic of the Jews terrorism.

  (She will talk about the Christian fanatism in another episode).

  In that one she described the birth of the state of Israel since the Britain trait in 1948 that basically created the state and divided the land between the (pre-living) Arabs and Jews

  (Trinov wrote an extremely interesting post where they dispute the rigth of the Arabs to that land, anyway). 

  Amanpour naturally talked about the legal issue of the Israel settlements in West Bank and Gaza. 

  And she said something i didnt know: George Bush Senior has been the only American president who firmly and strongly opposed the growth of the settlements in the West Bank and asked Israel their demolition in name of the Geneva Convention (that you cited) claiming that their simple presence was an obstacle to the peace talks.

  She said that the Israel lobby in Washington was so powerful that at that  time Bush and Baker had been forced to back up and stopped their campaign against the illegal settlements. No other president ever asked Israel anything agaisnt them, not even Clinton.

  And its the same Israeli police that last summer demolished 9 homes that a group of settlers was refusing to leave. She showed the videos of the evacuation and it was quite surprising to see the same Israeli police dragging out of the homes Jews people and beating some of them with their clubs while the settlers and their supporters were throwing against them rocks and pouring over their head hot water.

  The fact is that the same Sharon (the hawk of Israel) - who basically used the commotion created by the first movements of settler to assurge as prime minister - lately in his poltical carrier comdanned the illegal settlements. In the reportage a settler in tears accused Sharon to have betrayed the settlers movement.

  The fact is that they do violate the international laws and they know it. Everybody knows it. Now, if its true that its a right of Israel to stay and defend its territory is also true that Israel is expanding its territory violating international laws..

  So, following this reasoning, for LF, even Sharon was anti-jew? Even George Bush Senior?

  Why the Israeli police was fighting against their own people? Because even in Israel the society is fragmented. Amanpour interviewed three men: one self proclaimed to be God's warrior and he has been one of the first settlers in the Seventy. He got arrested because he was planning a terroristic attack against some Palestinian. Now he talks against the settlements. Another man is still a God warrior and he believes that simply standing on that land is the fullfillment of the prohecy . And only when all the Jews will live there the prohecy will happen.

  Another Jew man, instead, soon after the Six days war left Israel and went to live in Us and lately went back to Jesuralem where he lives now. He talks about peace and open minds....but he is the only one who doesnt put God and religion in the same equation..

  The settlers are considered extremist and fanatic by some of the Israel people. Are they anti-jews too?

  The West Bank is the portion of land where Israel has been scattering strategically houses and trailers in a very smart way so that doesnt permit a continnum of property lands in the future State of Palestina. The settlers say they buy lands from the Arabs and the land is theirs...

  The situation is extremely complicated but i dont see why saying that the settlements violate international laws (as they objectively do) makes of you, Bloc, an anti-jew.

  I think LF went too far in this.

  I think that if we read the historry is obvious that those settlements are illegal and have to go.

  How is another story...

  I am sorry that a discussion that might have enriched both parts is ending in this way....Hope LF doesnt block me too... i will be very sorry..

  Trinov is from Israel and i am hoping they might put in the conversation their side of the story. Actually i am very interested in knowing if they consider this info correct, from their point of view.

  We are just talking and trying to understand here...we are not Satan's fellowers and Hitler' lovers...  

  Do i have to stop reading Trinov if they eventually consider the settlements legal?

  I surely will not.

  Do i have to stop reading LF now? I surely will not.......

• bloc said on Oct 19, 2007....

  I didn't want to stop reading him, but he blocked me so why read something I can't comment on?

• gingersoul said on Oct 19, 2007....

  I understand.... it makes sense....

  My questions were not directed to you as a critique......they were rhetoric questions...

• bloc said on Oct 19, 2007....

  It's saddening because he was one of my favorite bloggers to read and we'd had a good sc relationship until that single post.

• TinSoldier said on Oct 19, 2007....

  You know, I have to say that it should be a relief. lfbno7 was so chaotic and didn't even know what his own views were in order to have any reasonable discussions.
  
  Like some others here he could go off on such a complete tangent as to leave a reader of his comments (I only read a few of his blog posts) saying, "WTF?"
  

• kelly said on Oct 20, 2007....

  He may have been a bit zany at times but I thoroughly enjoyed his moral outrage, something lacking in most people.
  
  
  Still, I've decided to stop reading him as well even though bloc is not asking anyone to do this.  I bristle at anyone who insists that anything said about them at all--no matter how factual or appropriate--is to be taken as being anti-Semitical.  There is no perfect people upon this planet, and while I understand the circumstances which would lead to a zealous protection of one's people that is no free pass for freedom from criticism.

• kruuyai said on Oct 20, 2007....

  I was following that post without commenting, because bloc had already said everything I would have said, and later, the discussion just got way out of hand.  I just popped back there now to see if there were any new comments and was amazed that all the opposing comments had been deleted, and all that was left were the long, self-righteous rants by lfbno7.  In my mind, this makes lfbno7 exactly the propagandist that he accuses Chomsky of being (and again, all because of a different take on one issue).  In my mind, being critical of Israel's policy absolutely does not constitute anti-semitism.  If it did, how could you explain all the Jews around the world who are also critical of Israeli politics?  Like kelly, I have also enjoyed lfbno7's moral outrage in the past, because I always believed there was a logical mind behind it... but at least on this one issue, whether or not you agree with him, it's apparent that he's letting his emotions rule his thought process, when it comes to defending his belief system.  Too bad.

• silverwhisper said on Oct 20, 2007....

  this is a damned shame, yet sadly was inevitable, IMHO.
  
  ed

• muckpar said on Oct 21, 2007....

  The peace that moderates in Israel and in Palestine seek will elude them because extremeists on both sides will not compromise.  In my opinion God will settle this one, this opens me up to attack, but so be it, that's the way I see it.

• crybabylu said on Oct 23, 2007....

  Finally, someone posting about this area of the world, without fearing the heat that the far right would send your way.  Everybody seems to walk
  on eggshells when it comes to confronting any of Israel's negative actions.  What they are doing, by these settlements are illegal, and I would dare to say maybe even immoral.  I could explain that remark, but I won't.
  Just because Israel has long been referred to as; "God's Chosen Ones", does not give them a free pass to do whatever they want...whenever they want.  Thanks for the post. ..A big thumbs up to ya!....
  Dee

• kruuyai said on Oct 23, 2007....

  crybabylu:  I think what they're doing is playing on the world's collective guilt over what happened in Europe during the second world war, and people are afraid of being labeled anti-Semitic or somehow being alligned with or sympathetic to the Nazi movement if they criticize Israel.  In fact, I think that's why the nation was established in the first place.  No one stopped to consider the effect on all the Palestinians that were forced out of homes that their families had occupied for hundreds of years.  Something else I find interesting is that the moral outrage over the Nazi concentration camps doesn't seem to extend to all the other groups that were persecuted at the same time, most notably, the gypsy or Roma people... who continue to suffer oppression in Europe (and perhaps elsewhere) to this day.  Were their lives not just as valuable?
  

• silverwhisper said on Oct 23, 2007....

  or the homosexuals, for that matter, kruu.
  
  ed

• kruuyai said on Oct 23, 2007....

  ed:  That's true.

• crybabylu said on Oct 23, 2007....

  I hear you silverwhisper and kruuyai, but with most people I talk to "Christian" people, being one myself...they expect me to say the same robotic nonsense that they have always said..."Oh, we can't go aginst Israel, because if we do...you know what will happen to us..."  My answer, which I already know what they are saying because it's repeated over and over among the masses"......."No, I don't know, what are you talking about..A big thunder bolt from heaven is going to strike us dead or something?"   Is that what you are saying.  you can almost see the tremble in their lips and you definitely hear it in there voices.

  "You know, in the last days....anyone who goes up against Israel, God is going to strike them down....blah...blah..blah, and then some."   Has anyone seen good 'ol TV evangelist, Haggie go on and on about how that is how he selects who to vote for for President?   Yeah, I wondered how we ever ended up with Bush for two terms....We all know how we got him the first term.   THEFT!i

  I am sensitive to Israel like many other people are, but I want responsibility and accountability when they do something that is WRONG!    And those settlements are wrong.

• silverwhisper said on Oct 24, 2007....

  see, i think that depends upon which christian you talk with. :D
  
  i won't speak for kruu, but me, i try to do my level best to ignore televangelists. :>
  
  ed

• kruuyai said on Oct 24, 2007....

  crybabylu: I think it was theft in both elections.  I don't know... are Christians still buying that "chosen people" stuff?  Isn't that what Christianity was designed to wipe out?  Don't ask me.  I haven't been a Christian for a good 30 years or so. 
  
  ed:  Nope..  Not big on televangelists.
  

• crybabylu said on Oct 25, 2007....

  Well, I guess I got a little excited about it, didn't  I?
  I don't watch TV evang. either, but he happen to
  come on Glen Beck news show while I was surfing
  thru the channels the other night...I avoid Glen Beck
  too...he can be a bit emotional himself!

• TinSoldier said on Oct 25, 2007....

  If only religious people had voted for Bush, then he never would have been president. Even with the electoral system.

• silverwhisper said on Oct 26, 2007....

  so you don't buy the notion that the fear, uncertainty & doubt (FUD) spread far & wide by the republicans re: gay marriage was meaningfully at play i the last election, TS? i find that rather surprising.
  
  ed

• TinSoldier said on Oct 26, 2007....

  I'm not sure what you're getting at.
  
  Are you saying that non-religious people have something to fear from gay people?
  
  Maybe I should rephrase my statement above, I'm just trying to figure out how:
  
  "If the only people who voted for Bush were religious people who agree with his views then he never would have been elected."
  
  Point being that there are non-religious people who agree with his views. Heh. But I'm no longer one of them.
  

• silverwhisper said on Oct 26, 2007....

  religious people is usually code for conservative christians in such discussions, so i apologize as i was responding by reflex rather than parsing your meaning. my bad, dude.
  
  ed

• crybabylu said on Oct 26, 2007....

  The only reason I mention "Christians" is because in the world we live in, we have the most trouble talking about  Israel.   It really puzzled me when everyone started saying Mel Gibson was anti-semetic just because his "Passion of the Christ"  (even tho it now appears they may have been right).  Most Christians I know are very pro-Israel to the point, if you even suggest of any "wrong doing" at all, you quickly find yourself on the defense.  I personally think that all subjects and topics should be open to discussion without someone immmediately thinking we are judging.

   

• Trinov said on Oct 31, 2007....

  I find it very sad that even intelligent people fall into propaganda idiocy. What is a settlement? Why is that a bad term? Hey guys, the West Bank is the heart of Biblical Israel, it was never valued by the Arabs until the Jews started coming back and turning the clay and sand into gardens. The Arabs want all of Israel, by the way, everywhere, not just the West Bank,which was 'owned' by Lebanese and Syrian and Turkish rich guys before the Jews came back and tryed to settle the land and bought the land 'back' piece by piece from these guys, including the West Bank and Chevron-starting from the early 19th century. And some of the Arab towns were abandoned by the Arabs in the early 1900's and the Turks settled Algerians there who had been fighting the French colonialists etc. so the history is much more complicated than CNN or the BCC or ABC reports and much more complex than the Bushes can understand not to mention poor deluded Condelisa Rice and her mythology of her being the PeaceMaker of the World. ...There were sporadic Arab villages but most of the land was barren, either swampy or dust, as Mark Twain pointed out in his travels that most of the Biblical land of Israel was barren, just as the Torah warned...As for international law, where the fuck was in when 6 million of my people were murdered by the Germans and the Poles and the Austrians and the Hungarians and the French Vichy etc and when the US bombed the camps to stop the Germans from producing war materials but left the gas chambers? When Chamberlain told Roosevelt that it would be best that more Jews died, when Roosevelt told his Jewish Treasurer 'don't make this into a Jewish war!" when he asked that the gas-chambers be bombed too... So fuck your international laws, they are not from G-d, they are not logical, they are not objective, they are arbitrary and applied arbitrarily.. the UN has always sided against Israel no matter when/ why/ what. Their soldiers actually helped the terrorists kidnap our soldiers into Lebanon and they even filmed this--- the morons...So if Ifbno or I or any other Jew who might wonder on to Soulcast gets very upset by stupid uniformed comments about Jews or Israel, hey baby, its our fate and our history and our future, not yours, so we get upset, okay. For us it ain't just cocktale conversation A100.

• Trinov said on Oct 31, 2007....

  I find it very sad that even intelligent people fall into propaganda idiocy. What is a settlement? Why is that a bad term? Hey guys, the West Bank is the heart of Biblical Israel, it was never valued by the Arabs until the Jews started coming back and turning the clay and sand into gardens. The Arabs want all of Israel, by the way, everywhere, not just the West Bank,which was 'owned' by Lebanese and Syrian and Turkish rich guys before the Jews came back and tryed to settle the land and bought the land 'back' piece by piece from these guys, including the West Bank and Chevron-starting from the early 19th century. And some of the Arab towns were abandoned by the Arabs in the early 1900's and the Turks settled Algerians there who had been fighting the French colonialists etc. so the history is much more complicated than CNN or the BCC or ABC reports and much more complex than the Bushes can understand not to mention poor deluded Condelisa Rice and her mythology of her being the PeaceMaker of the World. ...There were sporadic Arab villages but most of the land was barren, either swampy or dust, as Mark Twain pointed out in his travels that most of the Biblical land of Israel was barren, just as the Torah warned...As for international law, where the fuck was it when 6 million of my people were murdered by the Germans and the Poles and the Austrians and the Hungarians and the French Vichy etc and when the US bombed the camps to stop the Germans from producing war materials but left the gas chambers? When Chamberlain told Roosevelt that it would be best that more Jews died, when Roosevelt told his Jewish Treasurer 'don't make this into a Jewish war!" when he asked that the gas-chambers be bombed too... So fuck your international laws, they are not from G-d, they are not logical, they are not objective, they are arbitrary and applied arbitrarily.. the UN has always sided against Israel no matter when/ why/ what. Their soldiers actually helped the terrorists kidnap our soldiers into Lebanon and they even filmed this--- the morons...So if Ifbno or I or any other Jew who might wonder on to Soulcast gets very upset by stupid uniformed comments about Jews or Israel, hey baby, its our fate and our history and our future, not yours, so we get upset, okay. For us it ain't just cocktale conversation A100.

• kelly said on Oct 31, 2007....

  Believe it or not I can actually agree with you and at the same time still be appalled when an Israeli tank runs over an old man in wheelchair.  The issue is not that I am anti-Semitic.  The issue is that I am against inhumane treatment everywhere and that often leads to some very non-black-and-white stances.  In the end I hope you will be assured that I am completely behind Israel's right to defend itself.

• Trinov said on Nov 01, 2007....

  To Kelly, Fine, in Israel we are also appalled any time there are civilian casualities. The problem is that the Arabs like to fire from civilian areas, including schools and hospitals...When they threw the American Jew in the wheelchair overboard they did it on purpose, when their sharp shooter murdered a little baby girl in her father's arms they did it on purpose. According to Erikson, when a human gets to the level of concrete thinking the differentiation between actions that are purposeful and actions that are random or accidental can be understood.... This level is supposed to kick in around age 7 to 10. It seems that the UN has an intellectual level below seven to ten years old, and England and the American left follow suit... This is what boils us, Israel does humanitarian 'gestures' actually natural acts for us, every day. But they are never reported outside of the Israeli press. If you want to know us, read the websites of Arutz 7, The Jerusalem Post, and Ynet and you will get a very different picture of what is going on. We also have a disproportionate level of bleeding heart liberals who worry about the Arabs more than their own people...As I said in my answer to Bloc, I am not personnaly anti-Arab, I am anti-enemy. There is a difference.

• Trinov said on Nov 01, 2007....

  To Kelly, I meant Piaget, not Erikson, I am getting older I'm afraid. Piaget is of course more interested in intellectual development, and Erikson's stages are a combination of emotional and mental and social perfermance and his equivalent stage would be :industry va. inferiority. But my point was that there is a great difference between unexpected 'collateral damage' as the US military uses the term and intentional targeting of civilians. When the whole UN general assembly cannot make this basic differentiation I wonder about either the moral or the intellectual level of the representatives, or both.

• Trinov said on Nov 01, 2007....

  To bloc: Israel was about to be attacked by several million troups of a rare united Arab front in 1967, Israeli women bought poison to take in case the Arabs over-ran the country. The Jordanians etc lost their territory for being ready to murder all the Israelis and throw our bodies into the sea. Territory taken in this manner buddy boy is not taken illegally. Read some fucking history for a change. The UN is a body that is made up of mostly backward countries or Europeans that have had a history of hating and even murdering Jews. Fuck, it is a body of jerks and fools. Interesting that a new boss of Unicef actually admitted a month ago that his agency had been always prejudiced against Israel. Maybe he could start a change, but the average delegate still comes from a country that is richer than Israel in land and oil and quantity of people but does not produce the quantity or quality of scientists and engineers etc that we do while still fighting for our lives. So if you are quoting the UN, and this is your criterion, you are not using your brains very seriously either....and for me, you are also a jerk, so don't bother ever coming into my blog, I'll block you also. why not?

• bloc said on Nov 01, 2007....

  "Territory taken in this manner buddy boy is not taken illegally. "
  
  Does this belief go both ways? If so can some country invade israel and take land tomorrow and you'll accept it?
  
  
  Why do people like you resort to name calling rather than reasoned discussion. It's clear whot he jerk is. Israel has illegal settlements and no amount of name calling or hand wringing will wash that away. I fully support Israel's right to exist, but I also believe that all people have basic human rights and Israel does some things that are simply wrong. They need to stop.

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