1. if for no other reason, I think 1st and foremost, we made commitment to the people of that nation. To pull out would surely destroy any future credibility we would have with other countries.....what if we went into Dar fur....toppled there government....then up and left those people to fend for themselves as their enemy come back to exterminate them.
2. We are still in many nations militarily around the world helping to provide stability to those regions....a middle eastern presence is important in the volatile world of oil.
3. like it or not....we are killing terrorists....more of them than they are of us.....they will run out of willing participants before we do
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D6fer posted on Oct 06, 2007
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Comments
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shiningstar said on Oct 07, 2007....
It is a tough question, my friend. I believed GW when he said we were going in to liberate the people. Knowing the oppression of the women there I was orginally all for it even though I am usually against war any where for any reason. But now, today, I see that we were lied too and ,of course I would like to see our troops out of there. But would it be Cambodia all over again where the people were killed for aiding Americans? We have allowed America to be put into a tough spot. How do we help these people and yet allow them to be free? As I see it the so called green zone going up I see no reason to think that America is leaving any time now or later. I cannot blame the Iraq"s for hating us yet I know somthing good must come of all of this. Get Out? ASAP.We must let the chips fall where they may and give the people the opportunity to govern their own country.Peace -
bloc said on Oct 08, 2007....
The problem is that Iraqis hate each other. The sunnis and shia are in a violent struggle for power. I don't see any benefit to us babysitting a civil war between those two groups. So little progress is being made that I can't justify the costs which are having a directly negative impact on our countries future well being. -
D6fer said on Oct 09, 2007....
I don't see us leaving permanently anytime soon....were still in japan....still in germany....there will be an American presence in Iraq for many years to come......The dems won't pull out ....they could have ended this already.....that was the carrot they dangled last election...they didn't do it.....no pres will want to be responsible for what would follow a withdrawal. -
shiningstar said on Oct 09, 2007....
IF-----I was President I would ask the people of Iraq to elect-choose one leader for every tribe or ethnic group. Then I would ask them to pick a board to run their part of the country.Then I would ask them to divide the country so that everyone has a place to be and live in peace. Then I would ask if any could live together in peace and if so have them given land. No one government can ever govern these people. Perhaps no one government can govern any where that there are ethnic groups mixed like in America. Maybe we too need more than one President so that all people can have some one looking out for them from their own group? It's a thought? Peace -
D6fer said on Oct 09, 2007....
oh yeah? so....who gets the oil fields? -
shiningstar said on Oct 10, 2007....
The people get the oil fields. All things belong to the people everywhere not just in Iraq. They can consolidate and share or just keep those on their land.Peace -
D6fer said on Oct 10, 2007....
yeah....good luck with that pollyannish plan. -
shiningstar said on Oct 11, 2007....
Do you not think that the people in the Usa would be better off if all of our resourses were owned by the people and any profits made were divided among the people? Look at the utilities that have to be paid every month by every one. The airways belong to everyone not just a few corporations. If the people owned the utilities they would have itilities free and profit would be divided. -
bloc said on Oct 11, 2007....
@shining
It depends on how you define "free". someone has to work to make those things happen and it requires resources.
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shiningstar said on Oct 11, 2007....
What I mean is that if one has a body of water that is on the land lived upon by all they should share it. Instead we manage to fence the water off and "give" it to someone(corporation) to sell to us the rightful owners. We fence it off and force others to do without or steal to get it. There are communities in America today(and other places) that create enough electricity for their towns through waste and other means, and then sell the excess to other places and share the wealth.It is possible for Iraq to do this with it's resourses too.Peace -
bloc said on Oct 11, 2007....
water issues are very very difficult as are most community related assets. "sharing" it isn't a solution without defining how it will be shared. Take a river for example. Maybe I, as a person, decide to dump my waste in the river. You live downstream and it affects you, but hey we're "sharing" aren't we? -
D6fer said on Oct 11, 2007....
communism doesn't work....someone will always be there to take advantage.....one guy does all the work while another sits on his ass.....same reason unions are dying -
bloc said on Oct 12, 2007....
capitalism has very similar flaws and others. Neither work in a pure form. -
shiningstar said on Oct 12, 2007....
I realize that my thoughts about sharing are perhaps different than what you are familar with. People who own something or have personal input into something like decision making are interested in keeping things running smoothly for lack of a better way to put it. There is a different consciousness in owners than renters. When I owned property and had renters I never could understand why they tore up things and never seemed to want to keep things looking nice.--- Later I became a renter and got to know other renters on a different level. Once again I saw the lack of those that wanted to beautify their place and did not want to keep it up. I began to realize that if one has never had anything to own ,to call their own perhaps it is different for them than one who has owned something. Sharing, means that someone has input and one who is sharing would not put waste in water that belongs to them because they would know that it would hurt them too.I see Chevez doing the community communals that give the power back to the poor people of which there are so many more of them than the "owners" at the top.We all must learn to share.Peace -
bloc said on Oct 12, 2007....
"Sharing, means that someone has input and one who is sharing would not put waste in water that belongs to them because they would know that it would hurt them too."
Ideally, but this isn't always true. Also, I've lived communally, and it sucks. People don't see things the same way all the time. In time people think that some other people are getting over. That they are doing less work or taking more from the community. Massive drama ensues and in the long run it simply sucks.
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D6fer said on Oct 12, 2007....
yes greed exists in all communities in some form or another.....capitalism just makes it fair -
shiningstar said on Oct 13, 2007....
Capitalism makes it fair? If capitalism is an ideal or ever was it has failed miserably. When one works towards an ideal or a world that works for everyone in love and peace, one necessarily is led to the concept of sharing. It also involves a change of consciousness that allows each and every person to see and understand that we are all a part of community and we will all sink or swim together so it is in our own best interests to look at things that work and get away from what workd for one but does not work for all. Peace -
bloc said on Oct 13, 2007....
if you think capitalism makes things fair ... I don't want to be mean. Seriously, someone born into wealth has a far better shot at wealth than someone born poor. Capitalism gives people a chance at becoming more wealthy, but it's not a fair chance. -
D6fer said on Oct 13, 2007....
lifes not fair. Human nature does not allow us all to harmonize and get along....competition is a part of us...it is natural.
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bloc said on Oct 14, 2007....
yes, but that's very different from being fair ;) That's why a good mix of markets and regulation are the best way to go. -
D6fer said on Oct 14, 2007....
I can agree with that statement on its face.....but as we both know....the devil is in the details! ;)
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