• buckrogers said on Sep 07, 2007....

  Nice story, thenack, it illustrates the conceit and overconfidence that science has.  Science has discovered only a few pebbles of facts at the foot of a mountain of knowledge.  They have a long way to go before they can claim god-like qualities.

• shiningstar said on Sep 07, 2007....

  Is that meant to imply that you people really believe some big guy in the sky created a human being out of dirt?

• thenack said on Sep 10, 2007....

  Buck "the man" rogers, thanks for the support, you nailed it spot on
   
  shiningstar, do you really believe nothing exploded and created everything?

• shiningstar said on Sep 10, 2007....

  Actually I do kinda believe that way but answer my question please.  Thanks. Peace

• catch22 said on Sep 10, 2007....

• thenack said on Sep 11, 2007....

  Shiningstar , yip, I do, because the Bible has been proven to be reliable, unlike any other source of information. Especially evolutionary theory, which is not science,, or stable, or logical, or ever been proven.

• shiningstar said on Sep 11, 2007....

  Well as I said,  I do kinda believe in the same principal yet in a different way. As a Christian I was raised to believe as you do but once out of that I persued other education on the subject. What I believe now is that there is One God,  a Divine Intelligence that made all with the only available material for an Omni Present God,  and that is of it's ownself.  When this Intelligence went within and pondered it's own self,  it imploded and created all of the gods at one time(people).Then creation began with each god taking a part in it.  That is why there are so many different varieties of everything including people.  These things are taught outside of religion for religions are suppressed.  Peace

• blastfromthepast said on Sep 11, 2007....

  Thenack:  How has the Bible been proven to be reliable? 

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 11, 2007....

  Thank you for explaining your view of Creation, shining. Although, it could be said that any true religion wouldn't ascribe to that because, well, it simply isn't true. You could claim suppression, but you and I are not gods. If we were, we wouldn't need our own dirt, so to speak - that is, everything we accomplish in this life is using materials, people, and our own effort - all things given to us, not things we made ourselves. Buckrogers and thenack, I think you guys got it pretty well figured.
  
  Science is awesome,  but we have to remember that it is evolution that is opposed to Creationism, not science in general. There have been many Christians - God-fearing men who formed many scientific processes. A believer who studies  creation will find complexities unexplained except for intelligent design from a higher being than us.
  
  We have to dig for answers and realize that evolution is not fact, but it explains things as well as anything we've got, apart from the Bible. But that's the issue - if our schools teach us evolution as accepted fact when it's just a theory, that causes direct conflict when "education" says we came from molecules-to-man (or "goo-to-you via the zoo" if you want to include apes) evolution, while the Bible says we came from Adam and Eve, created fully formed by God.
  
  Not enough evolutionists are humble enough to admit their worldview is dictated by theory, and not enough creationists are diligent enough to back up their faith with scientific evidence that supports the Flood, historical/archaeological evidence of rulers and kings that lived in Jesus' day and referenced in the Bible, and spreading the Gospel with God's power to heal and to do the miraculous.
  
  At the very least, all that mankind has accomplished has been with stuff we were already given - even our own lives.
  

• shiningstar said on Sep 11, 2007....

  We were not given anything my friend.  We created it all for the joy of just creating just as we do each and every day.We use the same building material that we have always used,  God. It is Omni-Present.It always has been and always will be.Just because you do not know something or believe it does not make it incorrect.  For thousands of years we have all been carefully taught to believe what religion wants us to believe until we no longer remember another truth except theirs. But this will change as the world sickens from the religious wars and turns away from them in order to create something different.Peace on Earth.  That is what will come to us when we stop doing the bidding of religion.

• thenack said on Sep 12, 2007....

  Blast, there are so mutch on this topic that I think you should study it thoroughly on your own and then decide. Believing in Jesus is not like believing in Harry Potter, it is, if you use you mind first, the only logical path to follow. then comes the rest of the package. But Christian Faith starts with facts, and then progresses from there.

  The old testament has been proven to be very reliable by archeology. The old testament was also full of profecies that came true, especially regarding Jesus Christ. This is a very powerfull one becuase no other religion has this. Also, the information, archeological data and study that supports the Bible far surpasses anything else on earth. There is no ancient document that has more copies and cross references than the Bible. In fact, the bible has so many copies and cros references (from different times and places) that are identical, that it is unthinkable that any errors or lies or makingup of stories were involved. If it was man made stories, it would never have survived integrity accross so many miles and ages.

  In 1941 they found the dead see scrolls that were 1300 years older than the previous copies of the bible. They were 99.9% identical to the previous oldest copies, proving that the Bible stayed identical accross 1300 years of HAND WRITING AND COPYING>

  Finally the more I study Creation science (and evolution lies), the more I come to realise how insanelyincredibly complex life, the universe and everything is. The more I come to realise that there realy is no other option than God creating it. Once you actually take this as an option, and begin looking at the facts from there, you will be amazed at how many things make sense.

  This is a very rough and quick answer, I will post some proper links on the reliability of the Bible as Gods Word and message to mankind. Take the time, you will find more proof and research on this than you can read in a million years, and all of it concludes, the Bible IS Gods Word.

   

  Shiningstar, dude, do you even have a reasonable argument for this? Never mind a body of supporting facts and arguments. Is this your own opinion or is this a new religion or an old one dusted off?

   

• thenack said on Sep 12, 2007....

  List of some starting points for Bible reality, but to get a proper answer, you will have to expand your mind beyond normal doubts, some very clever people have tried to discredit the bible, go and read how they fail...

   

  http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html

  http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/

  "Most disputes about the truthfulness of the Bible can be grouped into three categories: (1) misunderstandings; (2) ignorance of the facts; (3) dislike of its teachings.

  http://answers.org/bible/reliable.html

  and  then the coolest website of all and probably the one who will answer questions you haven't eve thought about.---- http://www.answersingenesis.org/

   

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 12, 2007....

  Bravo, nack. You get my "awesomeness personality of the day" award. It's a shame to see such intelligent people bash the Bible out of those three quoted categories - they don't or can't hear any validity of the Bible, because they have their academic degrees clogging their ears and feeding their pride.
  There are some sensible people out there who are just as educated and just as passionate about their faith in Jesus Christ. Perhaps we don't hear about them as much because they are actually helping to heal the world, instead of trying to attract attention to themselves.
  I see no historical, theological, or spiritual merit to anything shiningstar has said, whether it is a newfound religion or an old one that's become popular again. It would be best if no one ever took stock in what shining says about religion for the following reasons: 1) they're biased against religion, including Christianity, 2) everything they say about Jesus is contradicted by the Bible itself, 3) they see the Bible as a malevolent Jehovah's teachings, while Jesus taught against it. Truth be told, there is one God, and Jesus served that God completely and perfectly. The malevolent being we should really concern ourselves with is Satan, who conveniently is blamed much less for bad things than God is.
  Once you think the Bible is tainted, and that Jesus taught against what Jehovah was "forcing" others to believe, you start believing all sorts of things that make no logical sense. You start believing in conspiracies, question authority (even just and honest authority), put way too much stock in your own knowledge, search for secret truths like a celebrity (Kabbalah? Scientology? Ring any bells?), and fall victim to Satan's lies.

• blastfromthepast said on Sep 12, 2007....

  Thenack: I clicked on the link that you provided, however, there seems to be a problem. The page couldn't be found. I'll try again later. Thanks!

• shiningstar said on Sep 12, 2007....

  I have shared my beliefs ,  that is all. I am not attempting to change any ones beliefs and would not if   I could.  We only understand what we want to understand and once I believed as  the both of you do.  I also know,  not believe,  that the Bible proves my beliefs as much as it does tours.  It is just that it takes the perception changing in order to read what is there in a different way that what religion has taught us all. Peace

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 12, 2007....

  Let me level with you a bit, shining. I must apologize for constantly being direct and really being on your case about where your beliefs come from. I 100% percent oppose your views, but I'm called to respect and love you as a fellow human being. I think I've showed that a lot less than I could have. Conventional wisdom would call me to insult your intelligence and blast you for thinking differently than I do. We see that every day in our media - so much scrutiny for anything out of the ordinary.
  
  What it comes down to is this: I am comfortable with what the Bible teaches me because when I live it out, it works, and it works spectacularly. I lived on my own power for 17 years before becoming suicidal. I had no knowledge of God or Jesus or any other religious teachings for that matter. But I called out to God rather than take my own life, and He answered me. He answered by placing me in a new school with friends that liked me for who I was, not because of what sports I liked or what video game systems I had - the main reason I had friends before that was because of those things. But people who had a love for God and lived for Jesus Christ loved me before I even knew what being a Christian meant. I'm a Christian now because I've seen God's love demonstrated to me and to others with wonderful results. It's not just a dusty book that takes away my personal freedom - it has shown me that with God, we have true freedom from our weaknesses.
  
  Jesus taught us about the Kingdom of God and what it is like. Many of His parables speak about the Kingdom. A Christian learns to look at life in terms of eternity - any suffering we go through for believing in Jesus is temporary in this life, because the reward is in Heaven...forever. No more pain, no more disease, no more evil, cruelty, sin, judgment...such a place is welcome relief to someone who has experienced a few lifetimes' worth of grief in this life. When we're honest with how much evil and wrongdoing are happening nowadays, the hope of a glorious reward with God is what gets us through trying days.
  
  In the end, it is a small price to pay to serve the God that put us here and gave us life. It is a small price to pay to live our 50-100 years for Jesus Christ, if we are met with being reunited with our Savior in Heaven.
  
  Would I want that for everyone? Of course I do. Jesus commanded that His message be spread. He commanded to love God with all we have, and also to love our neighbors as ourselves. What you have seen of religion, shining, are the bad choices that religious people have made out of sinfulness. Being godlike is much more likely to corrupt a normal human being than it will give them absolute truth. I would wager that most of the wars, religious or not, in human history have come from people who wielded pride and power and lorded it over others. That is the danger I see in believing us to be gods with untapped power within us. Jesus preached about God's power, and His miracles came from God only. Are there other spiritual forces that give us power? Sure there are - but apart from God, they can only be evil. Why? Because God is love. The Bible says as much, and Jesus lived it out.
  
  The reason I persist, shining, is that there is true power humans can have and enjoy. I believe it's from God, though, not ourselves. I know you believe differently, and that's cool. More than anything, I'd like to know what your experience was like in the Christian church years ago.
  

• bloc said on Sep 12, 2007....

  some of you show a profound lack of understanding about science.
  
  Science is a mechanism by which our knowledge and understanding advance. We study, make hypothesis, test those hypothesises and refine our understanding.  This is how all science works whether it's  the study of evolution, the study of medicine, or the study of gravity.
  
  Science is the most reliable mechanism we have for understanding the universe and it's amazing how hypocritical many of you are about science. You don't take the same stance about medical science when you get ill as you do of evolution. Almost all science has holes that we don't understand too well, or conclusions that get refined as time goes on. A doctor can't tell you how smoking causes cancer, or predict which smokers will get cancer, but it's not bullshit when a doctor tells you that smoking increases your chances of getting cancer. The same is true of evolution.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 12, 2007....

  I think it might help if you would point out some examples of where you see the lack of understanding, bloc.
  
  Personally, I would recommend the Bible as the most reliable source of understanding for the universe. I have heard that Creationism raises less questions than evolution does in some cases, and in as much as I've studied for myself, I can see what they're saying. By "they" I mean creationist scientists.
  
  I agree that we shouldn't take a "God vs. science approach," because that is foolhardy; God gave us brains and the means with which to help maintain health and well-being within our ability, and He's given us cognition to acknowledge and learn about the complexities of creation. Science went hand in hand with the Bible until the theory of evolution came into play. I have a problem with higher institutions teaching evolution and carbon dating as fact when it really is probably the best guess we got right now - and theories have been proven wrong before.
  
  Science and our accumulated wisdom have given us amazing abilities, and it's true we haven't discovered everything there is to the universe. I think some of the strongest statements against science in this post were really meant against evolution, because decrying science as naturally opposed to the Bible is not only untrue, but it WOULD make a hypocrite of someone skeptical of scientific knowledge - a person that was directly affected by medical science - say, surviving a heart attack, or a complication during childbirth, living with diabetes, and so on.
  

• bloc said on Sep 12, 2007....

  "I think it might help if you would point out some examples of where you see the lack of understanding, bloc. "
  
  Here's one that you said.
  
  "Science is awesome, but we have to remember that it is evolution that is opposed to Creationism, not science in general. "
  
  Evolution isn't opposed to creationism. Evolution explains how species can evolve into other species. It doesn't not explain how life began which means that it can't contradict the idea of a creator. It may contradict the Bible, but that depends on how one interprets the Bible.
  
  Here's another from you, "Science went hand in hand with the Bible until the theory of evolution came into play."
  
  This is false, the Church fought the idea of a round earth and that's only one example.
  
  Here is another
  
  "I have a problem with higher institutions teaching evolution and carbon dating as fact when it really is probably the best guess we got right now - and theories have been proven wrong before."
  
  I'm guessing that you are misrepresenting the definition of a scientific theory. Please give me some example of Scientific Theories that have been proven wrong. What do you see as the significance of carbon dating?
  
  "Personally, I would recommend the Bible as the most reliable source of understanding for the universe."
  
  The bible didn't have a recipe for the polio vaccine, it didn't explain that many illnesses come from viruses and bacteria, and hundreds of thousands of other things. We know far more from science than we do from the Bible. The comfortable life that we have today, compared to thousands of years ago, is the result of science and technological advancement.

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 12, 2007....

  Nope man, for too many reasons to list right now, Creationism and Evolution are opposed. You'd have to bend the meaning of Scripture to make evolution fit, and you lose too much in the process.
  
  Part of the church did oppose scientific findings in history, sure...but the Bible itself refers to the world as round. That was their bad. My point is, science complements the Bible, though people haven't always realized it.
  
  Remember bloc, an all-powerful God can cure polio (one of my church pastors is living proof - he was healed of polio as a child), His Word explains how a society can employ quarantine and sanitation practices to avoid the spread of viruses, bacteria, and disease (look to the Pentateuch for evidence of this), and God can overcome natural phenomena that we see all around us. In truth bloc, I think you jumped the gun on differences you perceived.
  

• bloc said on Sep 12, 2007....

  You are conflating creationism with Christianity.
  
  "but the Bible itself refers to the world as round."
  
  Can you give me the quote? The problem is that the Bible isn't clear and leaves lots of room for interpretation.
  
  You're changed the subject when you talked about God curing polio. Earlier you claimed that the Bible is the best source of information about the world. I pointed out why I don't believe that and you then claimed that God can cure polio. Maybe, but that doesn't relate to the point we were discussing.
  

• thenack said on Sep 13, 2007....

  Bloc, I refer to you statement
   
  "some of you show a profound lack of understanding about science." and also
   
  "Science is a mechanism by which our knowledge and understanding advance. We study, make hypothesis, test those hypothesises and refine our understanding.  This is how all science works whether it's  the study of evolution, the study of medicine, or the study of gravity."
   
  Firstly, I am a research engineer that work daily with science of various categories. I am still affiliated with universities and hold two degrees. I also read philosophy and took a philosophy of science cource in university. Some days I wear a labcoat for the whole day. I may be better qualified to talk about science than you, perhaps not. 
   
  Secondly, your definition of science is reasonable, but it EXCLUDES evolution, per your own critera. We hypothesise, test, refine, But how will you test evolutionary theory? Evolution is "historical science" not "operational science" We can not test evolution, its past, history, not testable. We can try and piece things together, but this is NOT science. Definately not the type of science that medical researchers practise.
   
  It has been my experience that real operational science has never been in contrast with the bible. A good example is the shape of the earth and the fact that it hangs in free space.
   
  • Consider Isaiah 40:22 which mentions the “circle of the earth.” Isaiah is generally acknowledged to have been written in the 700s B.C.

   

  • A very interesting verse to consider is Job 26:7 which states that God “hangs the earth on nothing.” This verse expresses (in a poetic way) the fact that the earth is unsupported by any other object—something quite unnatural for ancient writers to imagine.

  Ancient medicine was a messy affair that focussed mainly on killing the patient in some gross way while torturing an animal. This is generally true of many anchient civilisations who did not have a clue about germs or virusses or health. Interestingly enough much of the Law of Moses has to do with personal highgene and eating healthy. Bible was right before science, perhaps whe should take a hint? I refer you on a whole article on this one topic.

  The only part of science that disagrees with the Bible is evolution, and that is" goo to you via the zoo" evolution, not natural sellection. Do not generalise to make a point.

   

  
  
   
  
   

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2007....

  Let me level with you, bloc. I don't think we're going to agree on this one no matter what. I also believe you nitpick way too often, when you could take others' words at face value. But here's what I'll leave you with:
  
  You said the Bible didn't have a recipe for polio vaccine. It doesn't need to if God can cure polio miraculously, which He did for one of my pastors, and has done for many people with various medical ailments.
  
  We disagree on what the most reliable mechanism is for understanding the universe, it seems...you mention science, I say the Bible. I think that one we'll have to agree to disagree on.
  
  As for the world being round reinforced by Scripture:
  
  "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spread them out like a tent to dwell in." - Isaiah 40:22
  
  -Circle of the Earth
  
  "He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, at the boundary of light and darkness." - Job 26:10
  
  Circular horizon around the face of the waters - The earth was a formless void, and dark waters covered its surface, before God spoke creation into existence. That's why it emphasizes "the face of the waters," and a boundary between light and darkness.
  
  As far as I know, humanists in past history have had the misconception that Christians have claimed the earth is flat. They have a few pet verses that claim the Bible is outdated - one of which is a verse in Revelation that refers to the four corners of the Earth. However, it refers to the four directions - north, south, east, and west.
  
  What many people must understand is that evolution - molecules-to-man evolution, that is - can't be reconciled with the Creation account in Genesis, and if people start believing that stuff in the Bible is allegory, exaggerated, fictional, or metaphorical, then it loses its intended meaning. I've heard of Christians justify all sorts of things with a verse or two, while neglecting other verses that clearly puts them in the wrong.
  
  In the realm of biblical interpretation, we are worse off if we have the expectation that it doesn't have anything to offer that the best education can't trump. We might think its age discounts it, but here's what it comes down to: anyone who seriously studies the Bible will be able to tell metaphor from factual accounts, and take it all as truth. No nonchristian can claim the same knowledge because you have to know and study what wisdom you have - someone who grew up in the catholic church and trailed off, for example, might know all sorts of verses but have no idea how to live them out, or what they really mean.
  
  One last thought: although we have technology today that we've never had before, the human condition is the same as it was thousands of years ago. We might live longer, but we face diseases and hardship no one before us knew of. We still debate over how the Pyramids of Giza were built, thousands of years after the fact. It seems to have finally been solved, but it is entirely possible that while we can manipulate technology in a way none of our ancestors can, has that really helped us refrain from hating each other at times, from sinning? No way - a ruler of the ancient world may conquer a kingdom to claim that kingdom's queen for a wife, out of lust - today, the average joe can stoke that lust with a few mouse clicks of their computer. It's the same thing. The human condition has not changed - just its ability to better manipulate the world God created for us.
  
  So I'll leave you with that, bloc. If I did not cover all the bases, you can afford me the luxury of retiring to bed for the night. I find it better when we discuss things with an open mind, rather than having to doublecheck my every word so you don't catch me on a technicality. I don't think you learn anything by constantly dissecting another's words - process them with an open mind, not scrutinize them. We disagree, and that's ok, that doesn't bother me. Perhaps another time we'll get in depth with how evolution and creation are opposed. Later man!
  

• bloc said on Sep 13, 2007....

  "Evolution is "historical science" not "operational science" We can not test evolution, its past, history, not testable."
  
  This is a non sequitur. Many things that occurred in the past are testable.
  
  For a scientist it's funny that you failed to realize that the earth is a sphere and not a circle ;)  God would be smart enough to know the difference wouldn't he?
  
  Your "circle of earth" makes it clear why the bible isn't a good source of information. One can interpret that phrase to mean many different things. A reasonable person, unfamiliar with modern science, to rightly interpret "circle of earth" to mean that the earth is a flat disk and that there is an edge to the earth.
  
  The majority of organized religion and it's theologians believed the earth was flat  for hundreds if not thousands of years. Clearly the phrase "circle of earth" is vague at best, and can be interpreted many different ways. It is science that showed us that the earth is a sphere that orbits the Sun, not the Bible.
  
  @lid
  You make a very solid argument that the Bible should not be taken as metaphor or allegory. Why then do you quote a statement about the earth being a circle when it is not a circle? At best, the Bible is imprecise and vague where science is not.
  
  Telling people to be hygienic is common sense that any observant person will conclude with enough life experience. The idea that this is equivalent to understanding the nature of viruses and bacteria is a stretch! God's ability to cure polio, if one believes that, did not effectively eradicate it from our society, science did.
  
  I'm sure that if you had to choose between giving your children the polio vaccine or leaving their health in God's hands that you'd get the polio vaccine
  
  
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2007....

  Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Remember bloc, I also said that God blessed us with the ability to develop knowledge for ourselves - the cognition to study and learn about the world He created for us. God is just as responsible for medical breakthroughs as He is for miraculously healing, because those medical breakthroughs came from 1) the intelligence and understanding he gave us, and 2) the materials He provided on this earth for us to develop more knowledge in the first place.
  
  To be honest, I think you made a mountain out a molehill about the Bible verse and the Earth being a sphere, not a circle - that's a weak, snarky remark - and about what I said concerning metaphor. I think you needed to read what I said more carefully, because you've perceived cracks in what I said that aren't really cracks at all. Jesus' life was factual; his parables were metaphorical. Let me clarify a bit, bloc: if someone sees all of the Bible as metaphor, with no factual accounts of real people doing real things with God's power, they lose its meaning.
  
  If someone studies the Bible with an open mind (aka, not assuming it's faulty), they will know what is factual and what is metaphorical. That is knowledge a nonchristian doesn't understand, and so you have naive jabs at God like "the Earth is a sphere, not a circle like the Bible says. Surely He would know that." If you read the Bible as the authority of your life, bloc, you'd understand how odd your comment was. Hygiene is an obvious thing to us today, but only in well-off nations - yet some third world countries are suffering because they lack education in it. Go to remote villages in Thailand or Cambodia and you'll see it. God was establishing a civilization of people, and matters of hygiene were not as clear to them as they are now, bloc. Again, knowing the Bible better would show you that.
  
  I'm not out to bust your chops - you're a very smart dude - but just to state a simple fact: you'd be much better off knowing the Bible better - not only for your salvation, but to understand where Christians are coming from.

• bloc said on Sep 13, 2007....

  We have to remember what started our debate. I was never claiming the Bible to be false or intending to discredit it. My first complaint was against the generalized assaults on science which you and thenack aren't standing behind so we are in agreement excluding the subject of evolution.
  
  The next issue I took up was the idea that the Bible is a better source of general knowledge than science. I agree with you regarding our technological advancements relative to our personal and spiritual advancements, but I took your first assertion, that the Bible is a better source of info than science, to include technological knowledge as well as spiritual knowledge. Maybe I read you wrong, or you weren't clear.
  
  "If someone studies the Bible with an open mind (aka, not assuming it's faulty), they will know what is factual and what is metaphorical."
  
  I don't believe this and I'll tell you why. If it were true all people that seriously studied the Bible would come to the same conclusions about facts and metaphors. In reality they come to drastically different conclusions regularly about many issues.
  
  "and so you have naive jabs at God like "the Earth is a sphere, not a circle like the Bible says. Surely He would know that.""
  
  That was snarky, I apologize, but I believe the point still holds. The vast majority of theologians believed the earth was flat prior to science showing that it is a sphere. They read the same verse as you and came to a drastically different conclusion. Maybe they, and it's a large "they", interpreted it wrong. If so you have to concede that the Bible is often easily misinterpreted even by smart Biblical scholars. That science, which may be an extension of God, is a better source of information about such things.
  
  Btw, I agree with your first paragraph of your last comment except for the definition of God :)
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2007....

  Sweet bloc, that's good stuff. For the record, I didn't find any comments of yours offensive or controversial regarding the validity of the Bible, so that's all good.
  
  I totally concede that biblical scholars come to night and day conclusions with each other on some core issues. The dude that married my wife and I was strongly opposed to our move from one denomination to another. Why? Over the issue of baptism. Oddly enough, both sides used mainly the SAME verses to justify two different positions. So I've experienced some negative consequences firsthand of how the Bible can be interpreted differently.
  
  However, I still find that a person seeking the heart of God will find Him. Think of it as a science class in high school - the textbook can tell you about a concept or occurrence in science, but nothing beats actually experiencing or witnessing it yourself. For another view, many people aren't merely satisfied with seeing pictures of, or reading about, wild animals - they'd rather go to the zoo, or go find the animal in its habitat.
  
  It's the same thing with the Bible - we can read about God's work in others, and His love for us, but it's not real unless we experience it. We experience it by praying to God and surrendering our lives to Him. That might seem like a very steep price to pay, esp. when other religions can say, "do what you want," or we can just have no religion at all. But here's a thought: I could drive to Las Vegas this weekend, blow all my money on slots, hire a couple of hookers, drink myself stupid, and do essentially anything available to me. Hey, that's what Vegas is known for, why not partake?
  
  I won't, because I have a loving wife that God gave to me despite the mistakes I made to hurt the relationship. I'll spend Saturday learning about how the project I'm working on can bless the world someday, and spend Sunday worshiping God for all He's done in my life - keeping me safe and protected, while giving me a purpose. It is a life blessed by the creator of the universe, and if the alternative is doing what I want, with religion or without, I'm gonna go with God.
  
  I find that the more people study the Bible merely from an academic standpoint, the more chance there is of different interpretations. Why? Because the Bible isn't just head knowledge - it's heart knowledge. To love as Jesus did is not just obeying the Bible as best you can - it's knowing Him as your Savior and getting power from God to love others - and in so doing, serving God. If a pastor or theologian is convinced they have the meaning down to the letter, they can get very prideful and look down upon another less educated. If their wisdom makes them unable to love a person different from them, then they missed the entire point of why the Bible was given to us.
  
  I would say human sinfulness is the root source of these multiple interpretations - someone will argue a point to the death if their pride convinces them they're right. If a true Christian knows the truth and sees others belittling it, they can still love the person and respect them without trying to argue another into agreeing. A true Christian can do that because they know God personally, and the Bible is much less of a mystery to them. They use their brain to discern wisdom from foolishness, and direction from God that appeals to their mind AND heart. Does that make sense? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that, bloc.
  

• bloc said on Sep 13, 2007....

  I think you created a false choice. You imply that we can go with God or do whatever in the hell we want. Those aren't our only two options.
  
  I don't believe in your God yet you don't see me running to vegas for a bout of instant and shallow gratification.
  
  "Because the Bible isn't just head knowledge - it's heart knowledge."
  
  Do you watch The Colbert Report? If not, I have to show you a video relating to this quote :)
  
  My thoughts are that your concept of wisdom sound more like taoism or buddhism than Christianity ;)
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2007....

  No way dude! :) I'm a Christian all the way. Everything I said is supported in the Bible. That's not arrogance - I wouldn't say it if the Bible pointed it out as wrong first.
  
  Here's the thing about the Bible: it says if you aren't with Jesus, then you're against Him, no matter what else you believe. That includes any other religion, or living however you want. Again, the Vegas example is not all-encompassing, but Jesus was saying it's hard to follow Him and serve God when we only serve our own pursuits. It's controversial, but yeah man, living a life for God like Jesus did is really an all-or-nothing event. In that way, there really are only two options.
  
  Yeah dude, send me the link to that Colbert Report video. I don't have cable so I can't experience the Colbert goodness otherwise.
  
  
  

• bloc said on Sep 13, 2007....

  Let me search around for it. His caricature is based on the idea that he things with his gut and not his head. Funny stuff :)

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2007....

  Yeah, I'm interested in seeing that, for sure.

• bloc said on Sep 13, 2007....

  Here ya go, truthiness :)

• thenack said on Sep 14, 2007....

  Hello
   
  Bloc, I must commend you on being very fair and reasonable in debating. Mostly when I talk to people about this I get made out to be an idiot, you have been polite and coherent and fair in this debate.
   
  To cooment on one of your statements above, I agree, the Bible is not a souce of scientific knowlege. We should look to science for everyday science related stuff and improving our living standards. In fact, most of the founding fathers of modern science were Creationists (read this interesting storie on Newton and Galileo. The point I'm making is only that if science seems to disprove the bible or contradics a plain reading of the bible, we should review our science, not the Bible. After all, science is ever changing the Truth of Gods Word is not. And many scientists hold to this viewpoint with some astonishing results. This is what I tried to show with the qoutes from the Bible, it gave a hint of the truth to be examined, but it was correct on hieghgene and the earth being circular(hebrew words are interpreted a lot different, don't get hung up on this technicallity) and suspended in space.
   
  There are some portions of the Bible that may be difficult to understand, mostly they are not crucial to salvation. Besides, as Lid said, if you truly seek Him, and not alow yourself to yield to the powers of this world, He will change your heart.
   
  Jesus wants to know you, and His Word as Recorded in the Bible is a good place to start. You do not call a scientist a scientists only after he understands all of science, so you can be a Christain without undertanding all of the Bible.
   
  Peace to you all. I have to start work now.
   
  TheNack

• bloc said on Sep 14, 2007....

  Thank you for being reasonable as well. A lot of people grow up being anti Christian, I was one, because of the feeling that that Christianity in general is being forced on us (and to make it worse many of those forcing it seem hypocritical). It took a while for me to understand that my frustrations were with some Christians and not Christianity itself.
  
  This also helps to explain my evolution from atheism to agnosticism (with a great respect for spirituality).
  

• thenack said on Sep 15, 2007....

  Cool Block, I must admit that looking back now, there really is no point at forcing Chritianity on someone, because that would no longer be Christianity. Christianity is making a choise to repent(turn around on your current path) from sins and then to progress in knowing Jesus and adhering to His Word, the Bible. Forcing a bunch of rituals on someone is a far cry from this and has probably done more bad than good (even if meant well). This is why I feel it is important for all Christians to adhere to a plain ( not simple or literal, plain meaning taking history as history, poetry as poetry, revelation as revelation) reading of the Bible. If all Christians were something like the first Church was, people would not be able to point the finger of hipocracy. But sadly christians are human too and even worse, many people use their own personal version of christianity for personaly gains.
   
  Good luck on your journey and may you find peace with God.
   

• shiningstar said on Sep 15, 2007....

  Fellow Bloggers;  Do you not see that the world you are creating and want to create in following a god and bowing to him is the world that you could be living in and your children and great grand children and so on and so on?Do you get inspired when you see the Muslims on their faces,  behinds in the air,  facing mecca?  Does that  picture represent the picture of freedom to you?  Would it not be a grander vision of freedom to  reread your religious books and perhaps find that the Masters did come to free the people.  Not in some far off time in some faraway piece of real estate called heaven but right then when they gave the teachings until right now.  Free to choose.  Free to use your own power to get what you want/need/desire.Free to live as you choose and allow all other the same things. No one can ever hope to change your minds for even Jesus could not perform such a miracle but you can.Would you rather be fed for one meal(given a fish) or learn to fish so you can feed your own selves under your own power?  Peace

• thenack said on Sep 17, 2007....

  Shining, you are soooooo enlightened.
   
  Whether you like it or not, one of the realities are true. You cant choose which is true to you, and expect it to be so. You will merely be able to convince yourself, and maybe some others.
   
  Don't mock the Muslims for dedication, you don't have to agree with them, don't mock them. We can learn a lot from them.
   
  You can only be as free as the reality you are in allows you, or you can temporarily be free (this is called daydreaming, or you can go on drugs). Jesus offers you a way to be free from this reality, you can be free from spiritual death. There are only two choises. You are right about one thing though, you have to choose and deal with the reality you choose, but there are only two.
   

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....

  For the record, it seems Muhammed wanted to unite the Arab nation descended from Ishmael, and borrowed quite a bit from the Bible 600 years after the New Testament was completed to do so. It contains truth, but it is not THE truth.
  
  That doesn't mean Muslims are dumb and useless - they, too, are children of Abraham, like Christians and Jews, and they will be - and have been - blessed for that fact. Think about it: the Middle East is the global hotspot for oil, Christianity is the largest world religion, and the Jews have not only survived the Holocaust, but grown to very prominent places in all walks of life. One example - the movie industry. Spielberg, anyone?
  
  There is a danger to choosing your own religion and reality. It is even more dangerous if your reality includes parts of truth, like fitting Jesus in with your concocted belief system. The Bible makes this clear: anyone who has worshiped Jesus and fell away, and/or has confined Jesus or God in a created religion of their own, will be held even more responsible than a person who never heard of Jesus Christ.
  

• DemocraticRevolutionary said on Sep 18, 2007....

  what is god made of then?

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 18, 2007....

  Hey DemoRevo!
  
  That's a good question. We know that Adam and Eve saw God in the garden of eden, up until they sinned and had to depart. The text doesn't explain exactly how God showed up, as a man or otherwise. What we do know is that God created man and woman out of His own image, so that gives us a clue as to God's true appearance.
  
  God's power has manifested itself in a cloud protecting the Israelites, a pillar of fire, parting the Red Sea, protecting people from execution by flames or lions, the Flood, and so on...and through Jesus, it has been shown in walking on water, turning water into wine, healing an untold number of the sick, restoring the ear of a Roman centurion sent to arrest Him on the way to crucifying Him, being brought back to life and appearing in the flesh to hundreds of people after the crucifixion, and so on. These are glimpses of God's power, but seeing Him is another matter. The Bible explains that no man can look at God and live - it's just too much, like falling from a 50-story building or standing next to the sun. So for that reason, we don't commonly "see" God.
  
  But if God created everything in and around this earth, He'd have to be pretty big - not just physically, but in terms of existence. He wouldn't be limited to physical dimensions, simply because He created physical dimensions in the first place. It's like a clockmaker - he can make a pretty awesome clock, and the clock would see his skill pretty obviously. But he can also have a wife and kids, drive a mean stick shift, be an upstanding citizen, and help his old lady neighbor take out her trash. In effect, the clock knows none of this - and if we are that clock, there's a whole bunch to God that we just can't grasp. Of all the things we can do on this Earth, it's all within the limits of our world. But if God creates that world and its limits, He'd in all seriousness have to be above those limits.
  
  Because God transcends what we know or see with our limited ability, it might well be impossible to conclude what He is made up of. I don't  think it's merely physical matter. But hey, I had to take a shot at it. :)
  

• thenack said on Sep 19, 2007....

  Lidstrom, to ad to this, at Creation God created the space time continuim we currently find ourselves. He also created the physical matter, or converted energy into matter. So the point is the closest we can come to describing what God is made of is that it is energy, but what is also true is that energy not contained INSIDE the Created space-time thingy, will not be subject to space-time laws, as Created by God. So we can say energy, but we won't know what we are saying.

  I'm not sure, but my opinion of the "likeness" phrase is that God created us as eternal spiritual beings. Like Him.

  Aaaanyway...

• shiningstar said on Sep 19, 2007....

  Grest Thought , the nack. Please enlarge your definition on this post. Thanks. Peace

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2007....

  I understand what you mean, thenack! That's awesome...and I agree with being eternal spiritual beings. We'd have to have a soul meant for eternity, even if our earthly body passes away.
  
  I believe sin potentially keeps us at risk of spending eternity anywhere but with God, but Jesus Christ took care of that, didn't He? I think that our soul, our very spirit, gets power from God, just as Jesus gained power from God. It was not his inner power, but rather that which was given by His Father. The idea of being spiritual beings as well as physical is a great insight, because should we only go by the secular wisdom of the world, we are denying a core piece (maybe even the entire core) of who we are.
  

• Antimatter said on Sep 20, 2007....

  “We have to dig for answers and realize that evolution is not fact, but it explains things as well as anything we've got, apart from the Bible.”

  Lidstrom82, you inspired my latest post on intelligent design.

• thenack said on Sep 20, 2007....

  Shining, what do you mean?

• shiningstar said on Sep 20, 2007....

  thenack; Thanks for answering.  Sorry I have read and reread this post and cannot find the sentence that I wanted you to enlarge upon.  When it comes to me I will get back to you.Peace

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