• exhibit_c said on Sep 04, 2007....

  You are generalizing about religion. The attitude you describe, though widespread, is not universal.
  
  I've never had it adequately explained to me how a rape victim is more of a dishonor than a murderer.
  

• shiningstar said on Sep 04, 2007....

  I have not either but in religious communities what is done in the name of honor needs to be adequately explained to me too.  You may consider this "Generalizing"  about religion.  But I bet if it was happening in your life or mine it would come home to us what it feels like.

• exhibit_c said on Sep 04, 2007....

  What I was thinking was that there are churches that welcome homosexuals.

• one_wired_kitty said on Sep 04, 2007....

  I do agree with exhibit_c ... the attitude is widespread but it is NOT true of every single christian family. My cousin Daniel is quite gay. Flaming ... almost inferno. While I may not agree that a male is meant to take it up the butt, I still love him to pieces. He's one of the sweetest people I know. I am going to take the christian stance that it is a sin but I've also fallen short so I'm in no place to throw stones. I still see it as a shame that parents will disown their children over something like this.

• buckrogers said on Sep 05, 2007....

  "He who is without sin cast the first stone."  I believe Christ's statement says it all.  "Hate the sin, but not the sinner."  We all have shortcomings because we have biological body with needs and desires that may not fit the mores of the day.  The influence of our secular society has made homosexuality more acceptable and therefore the behavior is more open. 
   
  The question is whether we condemn or condone it.  On the one hand, the behavior is irrelevant to propagation and family building, and turns the sexual act into more of a pleasurable sport.  On the other, does the act convey an element of love?  Should one love the same sex sexually? 
   
  Love-love is not the same as sexual love.  Love-love is unconditional, while sexual love is always burdened with obligation and problems.  This is why adultery is condemned in the bible.  Loving your neighbor is unconditional love, because there are no strings attached and usually no trouble, unless you borrow something and don't return it. 
   
  A homosexual should be shown love and respect, but the act is unacceptable, like you would show love and respect to a drunk that has no control of himself.  We are all prone to error.     

• exhibit_c said on Sep 05, 2007....

  Well, buckrogers, isn't it so very convenient for all the heterosexuals to decide that the homosexual act is a sin.  Your post poses as analysis but is, in fact, window dressing on prejudice. For instance, you say the behavior is irrelevant to family building. You can only say that if you have precluded the possibility that a homosexual couple can have (or be) a family.
  
  I could go on, but I won't. There's no point.
  

• buckrogers said on Sep 06, 2007....

  Maybe I should have been more precise, exhibit c, and say that homosexuality is irrelevant in extending a blood line family.  A blood line family has a much closer bond, genetically, than does, say, a family of inlaws, which are not blood line.  You have to admit there are imperceptible ties among mother/father and siblings.   
   
  This doesn't mean, however, that the power of love between two people is any less; say, a man and wife or two lovers, regardless of sexual orientation.  When two people dedicate themselves to another person (we all need that) it should not necessarily be called a marriage.  I firmly believe in civil union and people in those kinds of relationships be given full recognition under the law. 
   
  No offense was intended, exhibit c, and like you, see it pointless to argue either the sin or virtue of sexual orientation.  

• catch22 said on Sep 06, 2007....

  Jesus came for the sinner,not the saved!

  People are born "gay" just as many animals are.Judge not lest ye be judged!

• shiningstar said on Sep 07, 2007....

  again,  for a better and greater understanding of religious beliefs, I return to the family value statements.  To me it is impossible to claim family values is something that religion upholds when it just throws loved ones out the door if they are different or in trouble of some kind. No,  I am not saying that every person does that,  but I am saying that generally that has been and maybe still is the way it works.  Many gay people are not welcome at their parents home and virtually have no contact with family because they are unacceptable to the religious folk. A person who gets pregnant out of wedlock or goes to prison for a crime often are turned away from by their religious families(church or synagogue). Other religious institutions may attend to them in their so called "charity"  work but their orginal familes have abandoned them.  Has anyone else noticed these happenings?

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 10, 2007....

  Keep in mind, Jesus was not welcomed by his own hometown when he returned there. They watched Him speak and could not understand.
  
  Remember also, Jesus counted fornication as a sin, and while Jesus Himself did not directly say, "homosexuality is a sin," the apostle Paul did, and homosexuality was counted as fornication in the Old Testament. On top of that, Jesus was described as the Word of God made as a man - He lived it out perfectly. So then, how can Jesus - being the Word of God in the flesh - condone homosexuality if the Old Testament (and later the New Testament) count homosexuality as a sin? He can't, and He didn't.
  
  Yes, shining, religious reasons are ONE of MANY reasons families fall apart or are divided. If the Bible is the ultimate authority over one's life, a gray area becomes a clearer issue: homosexuality's benefits do not outweigh its negative effects. Do gays and lesbians feel they can't help it? God can restore them just as He heals people of alcoholism, cancer, or disease. Do other gays feel they shouldn't have to believe in a God that tells them that what they're doing is wrong? That's their choice - but I'd rather not have them face any consequences for defying what God says.
  
  Lastly, you can disagree with a person, and still love them dearly. That is the Christian view: as buckrogers said, hate the sin, love the sinner. Homosexuality is little different than any other sin - if someone lies to you, they sin. If they cheat on their wife, they sin. If they murder someone, they sin. But it's clear in the Bible that no one is beyond the forgiveness of God - they're only as far as their own rebellion. But rebelling against God doesn't make us wicked or depraved - not giving 10% to the church as a Christian is rebelling/disobeying in a way, but that Christian could be the best missionary in their congregation. So yes, it is God's job to judge who is righteous, who didn't know better, and who knew better but disobeyed anyways. It is important for families to keep cohesion, but still draw a line with what the family will agree and disagree with.
  

• exhibit_c said on Sep 10, 2007....

  lidstrom, (let me suggest with all Christian humility) stick a cork in it.
  
  There is a saying attributed to the Cheyenne:
  
  "Do not judge your neighbor until you walk two moons in his moccasins."
  
  Not too different from Matthew 12:31.
  
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 10, 2007....

  That saying certainly makes sense, exhibit, although I'm not sure exactly what you're saying by sticking a cork in it. Can you say what you mean?
  
  Besides, the Cheyenne could still judge after trading moccasins, so to speak. But Jesus called us all not to judge the worth of a person at all. It's a higher standard. Part of that "higher standard" that Jesus is, is to love a person regardless of the sin, while disagreeing with the behavior that sin includes. Disagreeing doesn't equal "unloving," and tolerance is not unconditional love. If you allow a person to do something that harms them or others, no matter what it is, you aren't being loving of them - you know they're doing something harmful. In that case, you love them by correcting them, showing them what is right, so they live a safer, blessed life - if they listen.
  

• shiningstar said on Sep 10, 2007....

  Family values is a word that most people appear to believe is that the family has value by sticking together in a way of life that they have agreed on.  Please add some other thoughts on this definition.  But if this is just words because religious people often tend to throw someone out of the family because they believe differently,  behave differently or live differently than the core group. As long as every thing is fine all is well but if trouble arises the person in trouble is left to stand alone.  It is a throw the baby out with the bath water senario. Jesus appears to have walked away from the family probably as  they followed Jehovah and his family values instead of what Jesus was living and teaching.

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 11, 2007....

  That is not what the Bible teaches, shining. That's a best guess to fit your beliefs. Jesus had family He did not walk away from - it was his hometown.
  
  I urge you to consider the possibility that God, in the Bible, condoned murder of certain people because those people disobeyed horribly. Besides, who are we to claim to know better than the Creator of the universe how to run the show here? :)
  
  Jesus' entire life was living out the Word of God. They are one and the same. A more accurate example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" is to claim to know things about Jesus without believing in the very things that makes Him the savior of the world.
  

• shiningstar said on Sep 11, 2007....

  There is no "savior"  of the world,  my friend.  If you haven't noticed people come into the world and leave it alone. If everyone in the world died to save one person it would'nt work.  If one person died to save all it doesn't work either.  Jesus came to teach the people and give them knowledge.  He only asked that they use the brain that their god gave to them and think. Why so many parable? So many teachings that most say make no sense?  All to give people an opportunityto use their own brain not the brain of Jesus,  religion or any one else.Jesus refused to live as Jehovah said to live and your Bible plainly states that if you would only open your consciousness and eyes and read it as it is written.  Peace.

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 11, 2007....

  Well, I've spoken out about this quite a bit, and your view is opposed to virtually all of Scripture, so it must be clear that you don't have much, if any, authority of anything you say about Jesus. All of what Jesus said and did was living out God's will, and your view dismisses that. You teach of being your own master, a lie that has been as old as Eve and the serpent. Being like God in arrogance is foolhardy, so I wish you well in your views, but I can't expect it is a universal truth that will benefit everyone in the long run.

• shiningstar said on Sep 12, 2007....

  It is just like a christian to take it upon their own self to speak for Jesus and God 82.  Did they come down and ask your opinion before they wrote the Bible?? You claim to know everything about it and what it means for everyone and to everyone.  Give it a rest,  my friend.  I could quote what you and those like you will say before you draw a breath to say it it is so well known.  Like jesus said,  where is the salt/  You group all together in one unflavored lump and  think that that is what  a Creator god would want or do.  Stay away from the book for a few months and see if you cannot find something happening in your life that you can explain in your voice, your way without quoting anyone.  Good God 82 open your MIND.Peace

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 12, 2007....

  It's a simple question: how can you say anything with authority on Jesus if it goes against pretty much everything Jesus said in the Bible, which is our best source of understanding who Jesus was?
  
  I've quoted the Bible and it says you're wrong. Clearly. I understand that would make you bristle at such an idea, but your issue is with the Bible, not with me. I'm telling you what it says because God gave us the Bible to understand Him. I'm doing what it says to do. If salt loses its saltiness, what is it? It is worthless. If I start doubting the Bible instead of giving it the benefit of the doubt, I've lost what sets me apart from the world. If I entertain thoughts of my own inner power and godhood, I now become conflicted because I'm looking for worship or power outside of God, and thus I'm guilty of what Jesus said. I am no longer part of the light of the world - I've descended into confusion and darkness.
  
  Honestly? I think the reason you are hostile against religion is because you had experience with the Christian church and you walked away from it. How? I don't know, but you do. People don't scratch unless there's an itch, and I feel you crusade against religion because of something negative gained from those past experiences. It's no surprise you can predict what Christians will say, given your past. You accused me of claiming to know everything about it. Let me point this out though: by rejecting the Bible, you are claiming that you know enough about it to dismiss it.
  
  We have more in common than our conversations have let on. We've both had less than sterling experience with the Christian church, we've both looked outside ourselves for truth and power, and we both value what Jesus said. Please understand, if you say anything on behalf of Jesus that doesn't line up with Scripture, I will point it out. I will not let impressionable minds get the wrong idea about God or the Bible. At the same time, I'd like to learn more about your story, because honestly, there are some nebulous things you've said that I'd like to understand better. That's how I keep an open mind.
  

• shiningstar said on Sep 13, 2007....

  It is so-o-o nice to know that you,  82, are the guardian of the so called word or the Bible.  Who died and made you God with the big G?  My experience with the Bible was a sincere desire to know Jesus one who my Christian upbringing created a deep love for.  When I grew up I knew that no Master,  like Jesus,  could ever teach people to hate,  judge,  criticize and create war. I wanted to know why this occurs.  I found my answers as have many ,  many others and we are out to end religion,as it is now presented,  on this earth because we want peace.  We want the children of the world to stop suffering and dying for the war-lords,  the tyrants of all religions. You and the mainstream religions misrepresent the Masters.  You represent religion,  not truth,  my friend.  For 2 thousand yrs religion has had it's way with the teachings of Jesus and all of the other Masters and what hae they done with them?  Lok where we are at today.  If you cannot produce love,  forgiveness and not judging people in 2 thousand years then you can not do it at all and never will with the "truth" that you believe in.  Peace

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2007....

  You are totally free to do what you want to better the world. If you say things about Jesus that don't line up with the Bible, as a Christian I'm going to say something. It doesn't make me holier-than-thou, or God Himself. It just makes the Bible right, and your claims wrong. And if you respond with sarcasm, it doesn't help your case.
  
  What also doesn't help is this: you have spoken of the masters but never identified them, whether I've asked you directly or you've brought it up yourself. Do you want to help me or others understand, or are you content with a message that comes across as cryptic?
  
  You have given no one a reason to believe anything about Jesus apart from what the Bible says about Him. You have said, "all religion is bad, I'm going to rid the world of it." In place of what? Inner power that you claim Jesus preached? That is a lie, and it will be referred to as such.
  
  The reason I believe what I believe is because God's existence has been proven to me in my own life and experiences, not because someone drilled it into my head. If people have told me what to believe, it has come from their own pride.
  
  Jesus came to save the world and to lead others to follow a life lived for God. He outlined exactly how to combat suffering and dying - with a peaceful life that served God. Jesus did it completely. If that's not good enough to explain what has happened, I'm not sure what else you were looking for.
  

• exhibit_c said on Sep 13, 2007....

  shiningstar, I think you have to accept that lidstrom has shut down his critical faculties. (If it were just politics we were talking about, I might say he has drunk the kool-aid, but that's an awkward image with the Christian fundementalists.) His answer to every question is the Bible. He is not concerned with proving the Truth of the Bible, or in explaining the inconsistencies of the Bible, or even examining the context of the verses he quotes.
  
  
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2007....

  You have to wonder at some point: which act is more constructive, making false claims about what the Bible means, or taking it at face value? I am certainly open to addressing whatever inconsistencies people see in the Bible, but I have to be honest and say that most of the people who point out the inconsistencies either 1) don't like what it teaches, 2) misinterpret it, or 3) don't understand exactly what it's saying. Some of the most outspoken voices against the validity of the Bible are former Christians - shiningstar might fit that category, since she sees it as a corruption of what the Masters actually taught, Jesus being one of them in her view.
  
  I know it might seem extremely obvious that going by the Bible seems closeminded, but if it's the truth, which I believe it is, then it's not closeminded. It's the smartest thing one can ever live by.
  

• shiningstar said on Sep 14, 2007....

  I totally agree exhibitc.  Unfortunately it is a trademark of religiousity regardless of which religion a person is afflicted with. This is why Jehovah called those under his influence "pecular".They are focused only on his words regardless of what else is going on,  what else is happening or if his truth is working for them or the world.  It is an ISNESS that one can only bless and accept as their chosen path.Peace.

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....

  Say what you want about my condition as a "religious" person, but at some point we just have to wait and see just who was following truth.

• shiningstar said on Sep 17, 2007....

  Do you not see it now,  my friend?  How many wars did Jesus create while on earth or any of the other Masters? How many dis Jehovah create and the religions that today follow the "Abrahamic" religions?  Are we in war today?  Have we been before? Are we headed for war with Iran and others?  Does it not all sound like the Old Testament days of Jehovah?

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....

  War has always  been a threat somewhere in the world, but it is not the fault of God, shining. Do you think wars would be necessary if the Philistines weren't attempting to conquer God's people? God by nature does not love war. God and Jesus are one and the same in spirit, because Jesus is the Word of God in the flesh. In essence, speaking ill of God also speaks ill of Jesus, and you can't think of one as war-mongering without thinking the other is in agreement with it.
  
  Shining, if the Bible isn't reliable, and taints its adherents to believe the wrong things about God, shouldn't it do the same for Jesus? Why see Jesus in a positive light and not God? Why regard Jesus highly even though He Himself lived for God's will, a God you say is less than loving? It seems like picking and choosing to me, and it seems like getting a whole bunch of teaching from somewhere other than the Bible. If you can answer any of those questions, it'd be a big help.
  

• shiningstar said on Sep 18, 2007....

  War is not the fault of God,  my friend.  It is committed by the people who follow a god named Jehovah who impersonated the true God who is the Divine Intelligence that created all.  I do not speak ill of your chosen god or anyone else's belief in their god.  I simply state my beliefs. I post here to share my beliefs not to argue,  prove my point or to defend my beliefs. Curosity became my teacher and that must be the teacher of anyone who wants to know a greater truth than what the world has taught them.

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2007....

  Ok...do you regard the God in the Bible as Jehovah?

• shiningstar said on Sep 19, 2007....

   I do regard the  one they called god in the Bible as Jehovah since that it what he calls himself according to the Bible.  I personally call God  the Divine Intelligence that created ALL that IS including Jehovah and all other Gods.Peace

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2007....

  Ok, that helps me know better where you're coming from. What role, if any, does Satan play in your beliefs? I ask because it sounds like Jehovah is a malevolent force to you.

• shiningstar said on Sep 20, 2007....

  There is no Satan or Devil,  if you will,  my friend.  All created by religion to keep the masses in tow.  If there could be a devil Jehovah would have my vote because he does completely match the accepted definition of that term according to the dictionary.  . Peace

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 20, 2007....

  Ok, that's in line with what you've said before. My next question is, if the God in the Bible is really Jehovah, where do you (and others) get your knowledge of the actual, true, good God?

• shiningstar said on Sep 21, 2007....

  You said "if the god in the Bible is really Jehovah". I suppose this means do I believe that the God in the Bible called Jehovah is Jehovah and not the god with the Big G? Yes? I think for me I could never make my peace with Jesus,  a loving man,  creating wars  or being like Jehovah.  I looked around at the world and Mother Nature which I love and saw the truth of how all that does work and why it works.  I saw what humans did differently than what the huge universal world of plants and animals live. I saw why humans build empires that fall while the natural worlds keep right on going on.  My  love for Nature and Animals gave me both insight and a natural curosity to know why the world hurts so many people,  deprives them yet we live in an abundant universe able to take care of us all. I found my answers and do not seek to save the world for I find it needs no saving. It only needs knowledge.Peace.

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 21, 2007....

  Generally speaking - If you see empires rising and falling, people hurting, and so on, but don't want to "save the world," so to speak, can you really say you were loving your fellow man? Would you say you worship nature?

• shiningstar said on Sep 22, 2007....

  I would say tht no one can interfere withthe freewill of their brothers and sister just as they do not want anyone interfering into their choices.  That is love.  The freedom to express with out judgement or intimidation.  If there is a god it must be or closely resemble Mother Nature who feeds  us all without judgement.Peace

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 22, 2007....

  We all make our own decisions, and much of the time, no one can argue us away from personal convictions...that makes sense. What about times where someone is doing something wrong and they need correcting? Not judgment or intimidation, but intervention?

• shiningstar said on Sep 23, 2007....

  Each stands alone in their right to intervene.  It is a personal choice that is neither right or wrong. Heard you of "no good deed goes unpunished?".  Sometimes to interfere is to bring problems to the self that are not what is wanted. I am reminded of people who get involved when couples fight.  Yes all want them to stop and not hurt anyone.But those who get in the middle sometimes get killed.  See what I mean?

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 24, 2007....

  Hmm...there are times to leave a person to their choices, and other times to intervene. I can definitely think of times where we can try to do too much, and I think wisdom gives us the discernment to know when to step in and when to let others reap the good or bad consequences of their choices.

• shiningstar said on Sep 27, 2007....

  Well said,  my friend.  It is always personal choice that has to guide a person. When one sees another committing a crime naturally one will step in and prevent it or stop it.But you understand that most of these things are done in the darkness and are not seen openly.  It is to that consciousness that I address that provides the wisdom,  the enlightenment,  the knowledge to each and every person to accept their own divinity and live up to the consciousness that divinity requires so that no one has to be watchful of anothers deeds.Peace

• shiningstar said on Oct 03, 2007....

  According to the Bible homosexuals were not the only people that the god of the Jews, that the religions of the world have chosen to follow,  that Jehovah did not like. For all of the work done by religions to "help" people their god despised any person who physical embodiment was not perfect.  The people were forbidden to go into temple if they had any "imperfections"  on their bodies.  This included the lame and blind.  Jesus purposely healed these people to show that he was not one with Jehovah and instead loved all people regardless if the were Hebrews or had physical or mental disabilities.Peace.

• shiningstar said on Jul 22, 2008....

  Since one person ultimately took over this post with the regular, predictable Christian quotes, I finally abandoned it for a while.It has always been a mystery to me why these folks quote the Bible so much considering that both side can be presented by a quote since two distintly different people are quoted being pro trayed as one>--Never the less I know that for me there are no "family" values if one judges everyone just because they are different from themselves.FOR GODS  SAKE ALL OF US ARE DIFFERENT that is what makes each of us so unique. So if we all turn around and shoot those DIFFERENT no one would be left.But just how that much judgement and hate represented the man called Jesus who judges no one,  hated no one and said to love all people beats me.And to all of the homosexuals out there I saw a video called Soulmates made by Ramtha that to my satisfaction perfectly explains why people "cross over" as he calls it.It is well worth checking out if you truly want to learn about the whys and walk free of the judgement of self and others.

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2008....

  Were you unhappy with where we left the discussion? A year ago? Let it go...I think we agreed to disagree :)

• shiningstar said on Apr 11, 2009....

  This was not for you lidstrom82.  I was just posting to  bring this suject up again as it has not died.

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