• silverwhisper said on Aug 27, 2007....

  i'm not sure how i feel about this. on the one hand, i'm glad that the pentagon has found a solution to their recruitment goals, but on the other, my fear is that soldiers enticed by the cash might be more susceptible to bribes.
  
  i'm very concerned about the lowering of standards. do you know more about that, bloc? i hate to think that we're putting new soldiers into the battlefield who might not be capable of all the things their COs have come to count on...
  
  ed

• bloc said on Aug 27, 2007....

  We have lowered the standards, I believe twice, since the start of Iraq. I'm referring to allowing lower asvab scores in, and allowing people that previously weren't allowed due to medical conditions or criminal records. 

• skymir said on Aug 27, 2007....

  OK two things.

   

  1. 2 years of mandatory public service for everyone before they reach 29.  there are afew details to be ironed out but I think that will slightly rase military numbers and improve the nation overall.

   

   2. propaganda. Put aside all the government lies, the fact that government lies are so reviled and well knowen makes them by defenation not propaganda. A little application of historical and psychosocial research will show many more ways to win young mind over to the military. Honestly, given that we are at war. I can hardly believe how impotent our government is when it comes to propaganda.

• bloc said on Aug 27, 2007....

  I can't support mandatory service. It is fundamentally opposed to my view of a "free" society. An example I always give are the guys that created google. We are much better of with them working on their passion then we are if those guys were riding around in humvees in Iraq.

• skymir said on Aug 27, 2007....

  Mandatory service could mean a lot if other things besides military. Personally I have a very hard time justifying a standing continental army, I still have not decided if it is a good thing. But I do think that some time in dedicated service is a duty of every young resident. the mandatory service would be best if it is administrated at the state level.

• bloc said on Aug 27, 2007....

  It is still fundamentally unfree in my eyes, and I'd still prefer that the guys making google continue to make google over any sort of mandatory service.

• curmudgeon said on Aug 28, 2007....

  Why should the State pay for people to perform some service that they might not want to be involved in when these folks can be contributing dollars and unique skills to the economy, send tax dollars to support our government, and otherwise be productive citizens?
   
  Service to one's community or nation that is forced upon people is not service - it's servitude and I oppose it. If young people wish to serve in some way, there are already myriad ways of doing so without State involvement.
   
  A standing army might indeed not be a "good" thing, but it is a necessary reality of life on this planet. Without one, we will spend precious time and resources mustering one every time we get into conflict. It is plainly naive to think that we won't get into conflict. Our military also enables us to respond to humanitarian crises of many different sorts around the world in relatively short order. Whether or not we do is a matter of policy - but it is a capability we have and I think we ought to maintain it.
   
  What we really need to do, however, is rethink our role in this world. Do we want to remain the world's only superpower? Do we want to grow in power and create a pax Americana? Or do we want to shrink ourselves, watch others grow around us, and start the competition for supremacy all over again? It's plainly naive to think that it won't happen again.
   
  The size and composition of our military must align with the long-term vision we have for ourselves.
   
  Not an easy thing in a country where practically everyone has a competing vision for our society and have a four year election cycle!

• muckpar said on Aug 28, 2007....

  I did think a draft is a possible solution, but having gone through Viet Nam, being drafted, it would be just like then, unfair.  I went because I didn't have the money to stay in school, while many of my classmates whose parents could afford it stayed in school and never knew what it was like to live from day to day not knowing whether it would be your last.  We are like many societies before us, we have gone past the citizen-soldier era to that of the mercenary.  I don't mean mercenary in a bad light here, but lets call a spade a spade.  Our soldiers are professional soldiers who derive their total income from fighting for their country.  True merceanaries are usually thought of fighting for other countries, but it is what is.  So breathe easy you young folks, your country doesn't need you, as long as our budget can afford it and the partriotism of a small minority are willing to shed their blood so you can stay home and do your thing without sacraficing a thing for your nation.
       @skymir:  I like your first idea, the concept, in my perfect America I would require a year of community service for every 18 year old.  While they are attending college or when they enter the job market if they opt not to go to college.  The year of community service would include at least some patriotic exercises, such as maintenance at national cemetaries,  helping families who have lost sons and daughters fighting in our nation's wars, working in senior citizen homes, work in national parks, etc. They would have until they were 30 to complete the year's voluntary service.
   

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 28, 2007....

  20k is a definite quick fix.  A better move would (IMHO) increasing the pay of all soldiers.  You'd likely get more recruits and you'd certainly have less people getting out if the money was a little better.  I'd likely change the structure/relationship of the services in a massive and sweeping manner but that is a different discussion.
   
  I'm honestly not opposed to two years of mandatory service to the government.  I understand blocs point and honestly I don't know how to fix it.  I would put in as many loops as possible but still.  It wouldn't need to be military, police, fire, postal, park ranger, DMV, etc etc.  Hell be the officials at voting booths. 
   
  It is worth discussing that it would be a shame if the guys who came up with google were instead caught up in something else.  Though I think it's likely there is no garuntee that somebody else would have come up with the idea.  Can't have people buying out of service because that (like life in general) favors those with fortunes.  Can't take away the right to vote for people unwilling to contribute cus somebody somewhere would be able to come up with a legitamite gripe no matter how many acceptions were made. 

• bloc said on Aug 28, 2007....

  I'm curious how the bonuses are being paid out. I know that when I was in they were paid overtime which was pretty crappy. An extra $100 each month didn't seem like a whole lot (these bonuses were smaller than 20 grand). I would give them a lump sum once they hit the ground in Iraq or afghanistan. 

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 28, 2007....

  When I was in we didn't get overtime. We got Hazardous Duty, Combat Pay, Per Diem, Tax free.  I went from making just shy of a grand a month to making just over two grand a month when I was over there.
   
  That sounds like a recruitment bonus, one time only taxed and all that crap.  It's not a bad chunk of change but these are 19 year old boys we're talking about, they are exactly going to invest it.  They are going to by Mustangs, PS3s and liquer (you'd be shocked how much money can be spent on liquer, specially at a bar with pretty women.)

• bloc said on Aug 28, 2007....

  "you'd be shocked how much money can be spent on liquer, specially at a bar with pretty women."
  
  LOL, believe me, I wouldn't be shocked. That's were most of the money went when I got back from Bosnia (and had money in the bank). You can spend a ton when you go out almost every night and are spending close to $10 a drink, and those were the prices on base in the late 90's!!!

• bloc said on Aug 28, 2007....

  I found this today, which is beyond cool. the building on the left is the barracks I lived in while stationed in germany. Drag the map around, go towards the right, and you can see the motorpools and everything!
  
  
  
  

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 28, 2007....

   

  Ok maybe you wouldn't be shocked, but I could probably have used celebrities or lotto winners as well.  A fool and his money are soon parted isn't just a chinese proverb.

   

  So my point about the money which while it isn't enough is that the military needs to start investing more in teaching children the way to care for their money, proper investments blah blah blah.  And they try, they really do.  The thing is that just like abstinance only training doesn't work neither does blah blah blah save your money.

• bloc said on Aug 28, 2007....

  I think they'd do best by getting rid of the predatory businesses they allow on and around bases. Did you guys have DPP? 

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 28, 2007....

  DPP? 
   
  There weren't too many predators on my base, none that I can think of.  I was in an abnormally good position though.  Miramar is in the heart of San Diego.  It's not like 29 Palms or even Pendleton where you are dependent on the local bussinesses for everything (and they you)
   
  There is plenty of military culture and function that I would change if given the chance.

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 28, 2007....

  DPP? 
   
  There weren't too many predators on my base, none that I can think of.  I was in an abnormally good position though.  Miramar is in the heart of San Diego.  It's not like 29 Palms or even Pendleton where you are dependent on the local bussinesses for everything (and they you)
   
  There is plenty of military culture and function that I would change if given the chance.

• bloc said on Aug 28, 2007....

  DPP was the credit line you could get at the ... I can't think of the name ... that big kmart type store on base. Since we were in germany many soldiers were dependent on the shops on base.

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 28, 2007....

  Oh, yeah they still have something similar.  It's called a Star Card now.  It is only useful on base but it does help build your credit (if you aren't an idiot) it was a very good thing for me.  Helped me get a pretty good deal on my first real credit card, let me get my car.  It was good to me, but I've heard mostly horror stories about how they garnish wages, charge rediculous interest (I never noticed, very rarely did I let my balance survive the month.  I didn't and largely still don't use my credit as money I don't have but rather as money I don't have on me.)
   
  But yeah we still have DPP at the military exchange.

• bloc said on Aug 29, 2007....

  i put a bunch of crap on my dpp card and learned my lesson fast. When I went to bosnia I was able to pay it off quickly, fortunately :)

• soleme said on Sep 01, 2007....

  A military bonus is an excellent idea, that is for soldiers that re-up, since they are the most experienced and need it, especially if they have a family (as some of you know soldiers earn less than their civilian counterparts).  As for new recruits are concerned, that is a 50/50 decision as far as I am concerned especially since the standards are being lowered and new recruits with criminal records are enlisting.
  With those few teh percentage is very low as to how many of them actually finish their enlistment or make a career out of the military.
  One thing the military should not do is tax the bonus! 

• SeanRenaud said on Sep 02, 2007....

  It wasn't my experience that soldiers made less, least early on than their civillian counterparts.  Particularly when you remember that they don't pay for food or room and board so while their income MIGHT be lower their disposable income is much higher.
   
  They do tax the bonus unless you claim in Iraq (or anyplace that is taxfree) which has sorta become a bargaining tool to get them to volunteer to go/stay in Iraq longer.

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