silverwhisper's tags:
in response to another person’s blog entry, a friend had the following to say. the comment was, of course, summarily deleted.

a friend quoth:
there are several statements on this page by you that could be legally construed as either harassment, libel or both. you are certainly engaging in defamation of character, and if you think the “anonymity” of this site is going to protect you, then you might want to do some research on third party tracing of IP traffic under subpoena. this site doesn't need to collect IP addresses in order for a face and a name to be connected with words. here are a few relevant cases. note that technicians were able, in one of those cases, to trace down over 14,000 defamatory messages on over 100 different websites and connect them with two different people. the jury awarded the person whose character was defamed on those 100 different message boards $425,000. just something to think about.

now, this made me curious about libel more generally. for a time i considered being a journalism major so i learned a bit about libel as part of my studies. while wikipedia isn’t a definitive source, it’s often a good starting point i find, and so it is here. one particular portion i’d like to share:

the wikipedia article quoth:
the fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. if the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. if it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, internet blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.

i wasn’t very satisfied with the depth of the wiki however (esp b/c the section on US law contains no supporting links), so i went on to my preferred site for all matters legal: findlaw. they had quite a bit to say about the subject of libel, actually, but i’d like to draw your attention particularly to the definition of what constitutes defamation:

the findlaw article quoth:
one essential element in any defamation action is that the defendant published something defamatory about the plaintiff. the restatement defines a communication as defamatory “if it tends so to harm the reputation of another as to lower him in the estimation of the community or to deter third persons from associating with him.” examples of defamatory statements are virtually limitless and may include any of the following:

a communication that imputes a serious crime involving moral turpitude or a felony
a communication that exposes a plaintiff to hatred
a communication that reflects negatively on the plaintiff's character, morality, or integrity
a communication that impairs the plaintiff's financial well-being
a communication that suggests that the plaintiff suffers from a physical or mental defect that would cause others to refrain from associating with the plaintiff

one question with which courts have struggled is how to determine which standard should govern whether a statement is defamatory. many statements may be viewed as defamatory by some individuals, but the same statement may not be viewed as defamatory by others. generally, courts require a plaintiff to prove that he or she has been defamed in the eyes of the community or within a defined group within the community. juries usually decide this question (emphasis mine).

most of us have encountered attack blogs here on soulcast. i don’t care about the ones that target me: i know who i am, i know what i write, and i know that only an idiot would believe the writers of the attack blogs. i can easily withstand the sound & fury, signifying nothing—although perhaps it would be more appropriate to describe it as some whining and a light drizzle.

but every now and again, i’ll encounter a blog entry so egregiously stupid that it goes from the merely laughable to the libelous. the matter of defamation (as libel and slander offenses are considered) as a cause for legal redress is well-known. indeed, in days past, a wronged party had the option of calling for a duel in such cases.

me, i don’t believe in responding to a verbal/written provocation with violence—that’s the way of the weak & insecure. and as anybody who’s heard a legal horror story (and really, who among us hasn’t?) can attest, legal trouble can be a whole lot worse than physical violence so i don’t take seriously the prospect of legal action in response—to my way of thinking, it’s even worse than threatening physical violence. after all, it involves lawyers. :>

i do however believe in mocking it. b/c quite simply, IMX, the single most valuable form of currency online is snark. and i’m a big spender. :>



so if you felt you were being libeled, how might you respond to it? do you consider the source, or treat all comments as significant? or perhaps you vary things based upon your history and/or relationship with the person in question? comment and let me know.

ed

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Comments

  • bloc said on Aug 21, 2007....
    I'm curious how they traced down the people without ip's form the servers logs. I'm skeptical of that claim.
  • the_infernal_optimist said on Aug 21, 2007....
    I have very rarely encountered any libelous statements pertaining to myself (either oral or written), though it has happened. Someone tried very hard to assert that I had prior knowledge of a certain man's true character and perhaps did not do what I was morally compelled to do, with what I in fact did not know, to prevent further wrongdoing on his part (of a most grievous sort) - and that I was responsible for his actions from whenever I gained that knowledge onward.

    (Never mind that my first inkling of it was after he was arrested.)

    That got to me. Deaths on my head? I don't think so, and I feared that I would be subpoenaed during his trial along those lines. Mercifully, the source of that filth was put in her place by multiple, far more credible people and the rumors stopped.

    In general, I trust that the people who matter will not believe unfounded claims against my character - and they will all be unfounded, at least any of that grave a degree! If the source was reputable (and surprising to me), I would go to that person and inquire as to motive/where they got their supposed information. Perhaps they were merely reacting to false information, which although irksome, is forgivable. If not, and if the claims were potentially damaging enough, I might consider my options, including legal recourse.

    If the source isn't credible, I'm not going to lose sleep over whatever s/he might say. Anyone who believes those sorts of people probably isn't someone I need in my inner circle anyway.

    ~Infernal
  • the_infernal_optimist said on Aug 21, 2007....
    Oh, and I'm apparently having a doi moment re: slander vs. libel. :-p

    ~I
  • silverwhisper said on Aug 21, 2007....
    bloc: evidently, it was good enough to be admissible as testimony and/or evidence in several legal cases. you never know, i say.

    infernal: don't worry, it's sometimes hard to keep slander/libel straight. otherwise i'm largely in agreement with you. :>

    ed
  • bloc said on Aug 21, 2007....
    @sw
    "this site doesn't need to collect IP addresses in order for a face and a name to be connected with words."
    I'm skeptical of this claim. They don't say how the technicians were able to connect the people to the posts on the internet. I'm thinking that they did use the ip addresses from the logs.
  • Expendable said on Aug 21, 2007....
     SoulCast says they don't collect IP addresses. But logs aren't the only place to look.
  • bloc said on Aug 21, 2007....
    where else would you look? 
  • Eilan said on Aug 21, 2007....
    It all depends.  I try to consider the source. 

    Occasional flame wars are a part of participating in online communities.  Like you, I like to think that my snarkmistressing abilities will see me through most of the time.  After all, look at how much fun we've had with my reading comprehension issues over the past couple of years!

    I would, however, consider legal action, particularly if any SC-related allegations that have been made against me were to move off this site.

    I wrote another response, but it's way too long to post here.
  • silverwhisper said on Aug 22, 2007....
    bloc: if the users were foolish enough to post sufficient information, a court-ordered search of the user's ISP records would make that pretty simple, and made easier if the defendant used the same username on multiple sites.

    eilan: if things moved off-site, i'd cheerfully contact the appropriate parties. :> and you know i particularly prize our interactions for the huge snark and reading comp joke potential...oops, sorry, that was a size reference, wasn't it? :D

    ed
  • bloc said on Aug 22, 2007....
    @sw
    I read your quote as a warning that a lack of an ip address won't protect the person. I find that hard to believe. If a person gives away their identity then ... it's not a sign that you can be tracked down without an ip. It's a sign of stupidity. If they use the same username on multiple sites then I'm assuming they are getting the ip from the other sites to track the person, or the person gives away their identity. 

    Either way, a lack of ip's and a careful person should be extremely anonymous unless they run afoul of someone that can get a spy agency involved.

    I could be missing something, but that's why I'm asking you and expendable.
  • molonel said on Aug 22, 2007....
    Since I wrote that comment, I'll respond to that. I'm a network engineer who works with IP security and encryption. I never said that the LACK of an IP address won't protect a person. I simply said that the fact that Soulcast doesn't keep those records is essentially meaningless. Every piece of traffic that takes place on the internet happens between one computer with an address, and another computer with an address. If you look back in the court cases against Napster, the amount of monitored traffic that third-party security companies did for the entertainment companies was as astounding as it was complete. The FBI has Carnivore. Hell, when Tsutomu Shimomura tracked down Kevin Mitnick, the guy was logging in using a cellular modem in a hotel room. They showed up at his door. There are companies you can pay, just like a private investigator, and they will do the technical legwork to track someone down. If you want to sue that person, then you can make it happen. The only limitation is how ornery the person doing the suing wants to be, and how much money they want to spend. This isn't spy novel science fiction, either. It's just the technical facts.
  • bloc said on Aug 22, 2007....
    "The FBI has Carnivore"

    Yeah, but you'd have to do something very serious (in the governments eyes) to have that pointed at you!

    I'm more interested in the other issues you bring up. I'm a programmer, not a network expert, so I'd love to hear some details. Let's say that you wanted to find out who I am, what would you do? 
  • molonel said on Aug 22, 2007....

    That partly depends on what you've done, and why I'm tracking you, and how we've made contact. Someone has a lot more latitude and options open if you've done something illegal. If I make contact with you through email or IM, it becomes easier. If it's on a message board like this, where supposedly IP information is not kept, it becomes more problematic. If a crime is involved, they may not keep track of IP addresses here, but your ISP does, and they have the email address you used to register here. If your email is privately hosted on a small company, it's cake. If it's a Yahoo or Gmail account, the traffic connected with that address can be subpoenaed. I know guys who work with ISPs that have had to gather information from backup tapes to satisfy a subpoena.

    It also partly depends on the states the two folks are living in. Libel can be considered a crime, in some states. If it is, then again, it's a lot easier.

    It also depends on where you are in the world. Two people living in different parts of the world separated by oceans adds another layer of difficulty for non-related and non-technical reasons.

    Mitnic was using multiple proxies and dialing in through a cellular modem on his laptop when Shimomura tracked him down. You can read more about that in the book called Takedown.

    A friend of mine was once threatened in an online game. The person opened up a chat with him to continue the abuse. He sniffed the traffic, and hacked the person's computer. There were personal documents on the computer, including a resume with his home address. He left a text message on the person's desktop with a short note just to give him an idea of who he was messing with.

  • bloc said on Aug 22, 2007....
    ok, so if it's only on a site like this and it's not a crime (i.e. subpoena the isp) ... ?

    I don't think the idea for anonymity was intended to hide crimes.
  • molonel said on Aug 22, 2007....
    Your question was a little vague, and you'll notice a lot of my answer was, "It depends on ... [this or that]."
     
    My original comment concerned crimes. Libel is considered a civil tort in some states, and a crime in others (as a subcategory of defamation). My original comment contained, "There are several statements on this page by you that could be legally construed as either harassment, libel or both. You are certainly engaging in defamation of character, and if you think the “anonymity” of this site is going to protect you, then you might want to do some research on third party tracing of IP traffic under subpoena."
     
    If you're not committing a crime, it's still possible to find you. Just a lot more difficult, and costly. I was trying to find the name of the security company that monitored Napster's network traffic, but I haven't found it yet.
     
    I hope that answers your questions.
  • bloc said on Aug 22, 2007....
    It does, I was wondering how one would get info from an isp without a warrant or subpoena. 
    How long do isp keep their logs and how easy is it to dig through them? I once was a telecm tech before I was a programmer, and I know that mci/worldcom kept phone records for a pretty long time. On large tape reels which I had to push around on a giant cart :( It wasn't until 2001/2 that they got rid of those ancient tape reels for much smaller tape cartridges. Digging through the data on those tapes was a royal pain and I'm not sure they'd go to the trouble for something like libel. But data isn't stored on tapes these days so it should be a lot easier. Then again, there is a ton more data!

    Any sane person should know that the government can track you down if they really really want to :)
  • molonel said on Aug 22, 2007....

    It would be difficult to get information from an ISP without a warrant. You can't exactly walk onto the grounds and dig through their tape library. That's why I specifically mentioned a crime in my first post.

    But, even then, it is still possible to monitor network traffic to and from a site via the use of third parties.

    How long do ISPs keep their logs? God, I don't know. Given the amount of shenanigans happening on the internet nowadays, I'd say, "Probably as long as they can." SANS and backup solutions like CommVault make backing up the data faster, and easier to retrieve. Larger companies are more likely to keep large amounts of records than smaller ones.

    Your comment about "I'm not sure they'd go to the trouble for something like libel" is well taken, which is why I said, "It depends on how ornery the person is, and how much money they are willing to spend." If you're in a state where defamation is an actual crime, then you serve them with a subpeona. It doesn't matter if they WANT to do it. They have to. Most ISPs don't have the money for costly legal battles over stuff like that. The guys I knew who had to track down that sort of information generally said, "Yes, sir!" as soon as a court order showed itself.

  • silverwhisper said on Aug 22, 2007....
    thank you, molonel. btw, great to see you here, sir. :>

    ed
  • bloc said on Aug 22, 2007....
    it's good to have more techies around :)
  • silverwhisper said on Aug 23, 2007....
    esp a network guy. :>

    ed

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