• silverwhisper said on Aug 13, 2007....

  yes, i do believe that it makes sense, but you know, as with so many such things, i also believe that there are exceptions.
  
  i have a friend, a great guy: makes me feel like a damned idiot by comparison, and an unlettered troglodyte most days. he's got a great sense of humor, is considered good-looking by most women, and is genuinely a nice guy.
  
  he's also sworn off ever getting married and monogamy. in discussions with him about the subject, he feels that he just isn't right for monogamy.
  
  it just isn't right for everyone.
  
  ed

• the_infernal_optimist said on Aug 13, 2007....

  Big surprise: I agree with Ed...but I also see your point, and I profoundly respect anyone who doesn't make empty promises.
  
  I would rather not make a diminished/qualified promise, either - to anticipate the ending of a relationship before it even really gets under way is to set it up for eventual failure, which I don't believe is inevitable.
  
  ~Infernal
  

• beyondtheveil said on Aug 13, 2007....

  kruu- Both my wife and I are second marriages to each other. We have of course talked about it and both of us really didn't want to marry the first time. Neither of us know why we went through with it because both of us knew it also really wouldn't last.
  
  I wonder how many do this because they don't have the guts to call it off? How many marry not truly in love, knowing its in danger from the beginning. Add to that the children heading for a single parent home.
  
  But how would you change what are thought of by most as sacred vows? How do you vow to each other in marriage "for as long as it lasts?" One way would be to have a marriage of legality and then years down the road make it "sacred for life" at a time of your own choosing. But I don't think people would go for this.
  
  Perhaps the best answer is, as many have suggested, make it more difficult to get married than divorced.
  

• quietone said on Aug 13, 2007....

  I think beyond has a point  make it very difficult to get married, and as it already is, very expensive to get divorced!  I also agree if you go into a marriage thinking it may not last it is a "set up" for failure. As is anything in life that you put into your head like that.  I also "settled for" husband #2 and #3, which are history as well.  I did not think my first marriage would end, but it did.  I think some people do well with the "common law" marriage.  myself, I would still want that commitment.  But, I doubt I will ever make it to #4.

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  ed:  This isn't so much about whether or not people believe in monogamy, but for those who do (at least serially), is it really a good idea to make a promise when you don't honestly know if you can fulfill it?  Look at the wedding vows... "For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, 'til death do us part."  How many people these days that enter into that contract, and say those very words, actually stop to think about whether or not they are capable of following through?
  
  For better or for worse... that encompasses a lot of stuff.  You have to ask yourself, "Will I stay with this person if they cheat on me?  Will I stay if they beat me?  Will I stay if they drag me down into financial ruin?  Will I stay if someone else catches my fancy?  Will I stay after the spark has gone?  Will I stay if they're in an accident and become a human vegetable, needing my help 24/7?  Will I stay if their addiction(s) take over our life?  Will I stay if that means endangering my children?  Will I stay if I get bored or feel unfulfilled?" 
  
  How many people honestly ask themselves these questions?  Apparently not many, because look at how many marriages (at least in North America) end in divorce, and many of them for some of the lesser reasons that I've listed above. 
  
  And furthermore... if a marriage is preventing us from being the best person that we can be, should we stay in it?  There are a  lot of different opinions on that.
  
  
  
  
  

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  infernal:  I don't think the end of a relationship is inevitable, either.  Obviously, a lot of people still do stay married or together in some form, and some of them are even happy about it.  But maybe the best example I can give of what I'm talking about is what a friend of mine told me about her relationship.  She had been married and divorced a couple of times, and then she met a guy and fell very much in love with him.  He had also been married and divorced at least once.  She was convinced that she wanted to spend her life with this man.  And he asked her to marry him.  Her response?
  
  "Fuck, no, I don't want to marry you.  I want to live with you and know that each day, when you wake up next to me, that you're there because you want to be, and not because some little slip of paper is keeping you there."  That was years ago, and I believe they're still together.
  

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  beyond:  Sounds like you, your wife and I share a common history.  You can count me in that little tally, as you know.  I'm not sure exactly how I would change the vows, or if there would need to be any.  A lot of people live together for decades without going through any kind of ritual.  I wonder what the need is for making promises?  Especially when it's not a binding contract, anyway.  The promise isn't worth the paper it's printed on, to put it bluntly.  But for those who feel a need, maybe we could have a soulcast workshop on it.  What do you think?

• AlisonMarie19 said on Aug 13, 2007....

  I totally get what you're saying Kruu. Everyone makes the decision for themselves, as to what their vows will say and if they truly mean them or not. I've entertained the idea of what you did... marry my best guy friend and just deal. But it wouldn't be fair to either of us.
   
  Your paragraph: "You have to ask yourself, "Will I stay with this person if they cheat on me?  Will I stay if they beat me?.... Will I stay after the spark has gone?..... Will I stay if their addiction(s) take over our life?  Will I stay if that means endangering my children?  Will I stay if I get bored or feel unfulfilled?" I think that one of those questions is an obvious "out". If someone is beating me, there's no WAY those vows still stand. HE broke our vows by being abusive. If the spark is gone, I'd try to get it back. If their addictions are taking over our life, I'll do the best I can to get them help. I know a little about this, and would try to help. If something is endangering your kids, you need to get out. And if you're bored? It's your own fault. Well, no, that's not true.... but boredom is a dumb reason to get divorced...
   
  I personally would like the whole "Till death do us part" thing, because I feel like, if I've waited all these years, and still haven't found the right one, that, by the time I do (if I do), it will be right and it will last 'forever'.  I think that a BIG part of the problem is that people get married TOO quickly!!! It's all happy and fun and blah-blah, so hey! let's get married... and then reality comes and it's not fun anymore. I want to be sure. SURE. And you have to TALK. A LOT.
   
  It's a good point though, Kruu. Thanks for discussing it.
   
                   ali m.

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  quietone:  "I also agree if you go into a marriage thinking it may not last it is a "set up" for failure."  When I read your comment the first time, I was in agreement, but then I got to thinking about it, and now, I believe just the opposite.  That is, if you go into a marriage thinking it may not last forever, you've got a better chance of success.  Why?  Because you won't be taking each other for granted.  After I left my husband, he confessed to me that once we got married, he thought he had me, and it never once crossed his mind that I might leave him... and that thinking caused him to treat me in ways that he might not have treated me if he didn't feel like I "belonged" to him.  (He wasn't that bad, but even so, it certainly had a bearing on our relationship and its demise).  So, I think that, when you know that your partner has the freedom to fly away at any time, and that partner and the relationship you have with them is important to you, you will work harder to make the relationship work, and perhaps be less selfish.

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  ali m:  Your comment gives me a better idea of what those revised vows should, maybe, look like.  I think each person has to ask themselves these questions (and many more, obviously), and put the answers into the contract.  "I will stay in this marriage as long as [these intolerable behaviors or circumstances] don't occur."  Doesn't sound too romantic, but romance may be one of the biggest destroyers of marriage.  There's so much focus on all the feel-good stuff, that people don't take the practicalities into account.  If you and your partner are able to work out a marriage contract that takes real life difficulties into account, and really hammer it out, that's great training for a successful marriage.  "Negotiations and love songs are often mistaken for one and the same."  (-Paul Simon)
  
  Thanks for stopping by, ali.
  

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  Although nobody actually came out and said this, I got the feeling that some of you would like to see it harder to get a divorce.  My husband said the same thing while we were going through ours.  But really, what good would that do?  Once a person has decided that they want to leave a relationship (and I don't think it's a decision that comes easily...it wasn't for me, even though I'd never been in love with him), what's the point of forcing them to stay in it?  If it were me, I'd just leave anyway.  Even if I were still legally married, I wouldn't allow myself to stay in a situation that I didn't see any hope for.  I saw my own mother spend her entire life in a marriage that made her miserable... and my father, too, come to think of it, just because they couldn't bear the stigma of divorce, and they're still married and probably still miserable, and I don't see any glory in that.

• moonstone said on Aug 13, 2007....

  That saying was on my wedding invitation too. I didn't mean it either. I wished that I did. I wanted to mean it. But I got married for the wrong reasons too. I can relate to that. I have no idea if marriage is a dying institution or not. People keep seeming to want to do it. I don't think I ever would do it again if I had the choice. I think in rare cases, some people really do manage to make things work and keep it happy---forever. But it's really hard. Really hard. And maybe we aren't meant to be with just one person forever? I'm still trying to figure that out too.
  
  There are some new marriage ceremonies that I've read about online. They no longer promise to love until death do you part. They promise to stay together until the love dies. Or something like that. Personally, if I was going into a marriage where I didn't think it would be forever, I wouldn't even bother to do it. But that's just me. And also why I don't think I ever would get married again. Assuming I ever get divorced, first. But that's another story!
  

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  moonstone:  How freaky is that?  We both had the same poem on our wedding invitation, and we both didn't mean it?  Too bad for both of us, because it really is a beautiful sentiment, isn't it?   I have a feeling that some people are meant to be together forever and some aren't.  I've not yet had a relationship that lasted anything close to forever, but I'm grateful for all the people who have come into my life, however briefly, and however it turned out, because I've learned from all of them.  I don't think the ending or transformation of a relationship signifies a failure.  Some of my past romances have transformed into beautiful friendships, and that means a lot to me.  I'm with you, that I don't think I would bother to get married if I didn't think it would last forever.  Just don't see the point.  But I'm not sure I see the point anyway.

• AlisonMarie19 said on Aug 13, 2007....

  I think it should be harder both ways..... tough to get in, to prove that you want it, and tough to get out, because you entered into a legally binding contract.
   
  I think marriage needs to mean something, and with the way celebrities go through spouses, it's no wonder people think it's no big deal. Some example.
   
  Sorry, this is one of those things that irritates the hell out of me.. :)
   
  Oh, and I think that that saying is on a LOT of wedding invitations... I've seen it a dozen times myself. I think it's cheesy.
   
                      ali

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  ali:  See?  That's just why I'll probably never get married again.  I don't think the law has any place in personal relationships.   Cheesy?  :(

• moonstone said on Aug 13, 2007....

  kruuyai I didn't think it was cheesy :) Obviously. Since I chose the same one! I thought it was beautiful too. And anyone who can use that invitation and sincerely mean those words, is lucky. Thanks again for stopping by my blog!

• kruuyai said on Aug 13, 2007....

  moonstone:  You're welcome.  I'm looking forward to our next visit.  Good night.  [kruuyai yawns and smiles sleepily].

• AlisonMarie19 said on Aug 13, 2007....

  I didn't mean it offensively, I just personally feel that it's over-used, and therefore, it has become cheesy. :)
   
                   ali

• silverwhisper said on Aug 13, 2007....

  kruu: i get what you're saying but the simple truth is that we often make promises without understanding the full ramifications of them, don't we? even if you haven't recently, i'm sure that's gotten you into trouble at some point in the past, no?
  
  so no, i don't think that's a problem at all. because on some level we all recognize love as the reason to marry someone, and love is supposed to be a life-changing thing.
  
  and it is.
  
  JMHO.
  
  ed

• sweetsoul said on Aug 13, 2007....

  I recall meeting with my minister and fiance just before the wedding rehersal. We both wanted to personalize our vows. The minister had presented a first draft and we'd read them, thought about variations and were discussing them with the minister. I recall that one of the changes we made was taking out 'until death do us part' and replacing it with 'as long as we both shall love'. My minister, who was also a friend of mine, was concerned that we were opening the floodgate...'love' can be fleeting...and was feeling us out for our meaning.

  What he didn't realize was that neither of us intended to get divorced (though we eventually did). All we were doing was realizing that with the divorce rate greater than 50% we were hard pressed to promise 'until death do us part'. We were trying to make the promise one that we could keep.

• secretlife said on Aug 13, 2007....

  my opinion?  i wish there was a minimum age for people to marry.  i think often people marry too young....and when you're young, you think you understand life, but you just don't....you don't understand the meaning of forever, not when you're 20....i don't even think i understood them at 24.
   
  it's all cliches then...for better or worse, sicker, poorer....
  you hear everyone saying the words...marriage is hard work.  but you have no clue what could possibly be hard work...
   
  it's also a societal thing i think....we live in a disposable world.  if you don't like something, you just toss it away.  get a new one. 
  it's so easy...
   
  and one more little thought....we were raised to believe in fairy tales- happily ever after is something we think is owed to us...we really don't understand the concept of having to work at a relationship- 
   
  i think it should be harder to get married....and i think if you have children, it should be harder to get divorced....
   
   
   

• kruuyai said on Aug 14, 2007....

  ali:  I didn't take it personally.  :)
  
  ed:  Obviously, I have.... my marriage being a case in point.  But the question isn't whether or not people do it... we already know that they do... but should they?  Shouldn't we give more thought to our commitments?  If we don't, then it's really just an illusion of a commitment, isn't it?  Of course, many people would prefer to live with their illusions than with reality...
  
  sweetsoul:  I think that's beautiful.  And if the marriage should end, I think there's less feeling of betrayal... "We did all we could do, and we just couldn't make it work anymore", rather than, "You bastard! (bitch!)  You promised to love me for the rest of my life!"  I think there's a lot more integrity in that, and when you enter a relationship with integrity, if it does come time to leave, you are much more likely to be able to leave it with integrity as well.
  
  secret:  Good point.  I have maintained, for quite a while, that people shouldn't get married before the age of 30.  (although those who want to have kids would probably disagree with me strongly).   You really haven't developed who you are until about then.  I think the biggest changes in a person's life usually come about in their twenties.  Some people can marry young and grow together, but most grow apart.
  
   And your analogy to our disposable world is very apt.  I find it interesting, however, that there are still many societies, (Poland is a good example) where people still marry very young and hardly ever get divorced.  Different views on life, I guess.  In North America and other similar places, marriage is jokingly referred to as a ball and chain, but I think our jokes often belie our beliefs.   Women are portrayed as avid husband hunters, while men are seen as elusive prey, and marriage is their bane.  And if you've been in the over 30's dating scene in America, you'll know that this humor has some basis in reality. 
  
  But in some other cultures, both men and women are more likely to settle down early and stay settled down and raise a family.  And I think that there is a link to the other elements of our culture.  As you mentioned... the throwaway culture that many first worlders live in.   That, and the relative wealth of our country, create a sort of immaturity that many never outgrow.  In Poland, I'm not sure how big the influence of the Catholic church is... probably relatively big, but I see young people there as being light years more mature than their American counterparts.  Unfortunately, I predict that this will change as Poland joins the EU and the Polish economy becomes stronger.  I'm already seeing differences in the way young children are there compared to the values that even the twenty-somethings were raised with.  I wonder if we'll soon see divorce rates rising there as well.
  
  Fairy tales... yes, I think that is really what most people are thinking of when they repeat those vows.   And if you think of most wedding ceremonies.. how is  it done?  The vows are not very long, just a sentence or two, really, but the priest or minister, or whoever is performing the ceremony has to spoon feed them to the bride and groom in bite-size chunks, because while they were so busy taking care of the menu, and the flowers, and the band, they didn't have time to sit down and look at those vows they were going to take, that supposedly were going to govern the rest of their lives, and commit them to memory!
  

• mom said on Aug 14, 2007....

  Kruu- wow, when I was younger I got married for the wrong reasons.  I was looking for a way to get away from my mom.  The guy I married was a nice guy and he was good to my son.  He was a decent guy, but I was screwed up.
  
  My second marriage was to appease my mom and to give my kids a father.  The 3rd time was disastrous also and the next time  was because we were best friends, he was great to be around, he is a good father to his step kids and ours and he has a big pecker. But this time I asked my children for their approval for me to marry him.  They gave a resounding yes.  I would not have married him if they said no.  I put the kids through so much that this one time they were going decide.
  We been together 19 years, we have had our bad times but we always bounce back to each other.  and he has a big pecker.
  

• kruuyai said on Aug 14, 2007....

  mom:  I take it that your husband has a big pecker!  LOL  It's good to have you back in the saddle, mom.  But tell me, how is the new, petiter you going to be able to handle that big pecker?  I hope it won't be grounds for divorce!

• kruuyai said on Aug 14, 2007....

  secret:  Just another thought about making it harder to get a divorce if you have kids.  While I agree that, if you make the decision to bring a child into this world, you should, at the same time, be making a commitment to put that child's well-being above your own, even if that means staying in a marriage that is less than ideal... sometimes the child's best interests are not served by the continuation of the marriage... particularly in cases where there is either child abuse or spousal abuse going on.  I was raised by both of my parents.... an abusive father, and a negligent mother.  They never got along (as you know, I've mentioned this in other posts, so no need to go into detail here), and my  mother always said, "As soon as you kids grow up, I'm getting a divorce."  Nice, making us responsible for her misery... and keeping us in it, while she escaped having to have much contact with him by working in the evenings... leaving us at his non-existent mercy.  I used to pray that they'd get a divorce.  They never did.  They're still together, making each other miserable, I presume.  I guess they've probably gotten used to miserable as a way of life.  So, there are cases when a divorce is actually better for the children.  But maybe that's what you meant by making it harder.. having people demonstrate that the children would be better served by a different living arrangement.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 14, 2007....

  kruu: to answer your question, i think it depends on the person.
  
  ed

• quietone said on Aug 14, 2007....

  kruu ~ scroll way back up there...you said what would be the point in making it harder to get divorced?  This is why...I bet in a lot of cases, by the end of 3 months (going rate) the spouse that left the marriage is on their way back to try to put thing together again.  I had settled that I was going to be divorced, it was over, started dating and having fun, my "man" at the time said you wait your husband will be back in 3 mo.  I said no way...but guess what..without fail it happened.  But it was too late for me.  So, if divorce was harder, and a couple had to go to "marriage camp" persay and work on their relationship for a period of time, who knows how many could be saved!  I wish I had made a different choice the first time.  hindsight is 20/20

• kruuyai said on Aug 15, 2007....

  quietone:  In Wisconsin, at least back when I was getting divorced, at least the person seeking the divorce had to get counseling.  Only one session was required, and if you didn't have your own counselor, then the State had this huge group counseling session (there were tons of people there).  It was more of a talk given by a therapist than an actual counseling session, but I did take something important away from that session.  The guy said that most people marry, not a real person, but their illusion of how they think that person is and want them to be.  And then, when that person fails to live up to that image or illusion (by being human), that's when people fall our of love.  So, I guess it's also important, before making  the commitment, to really get to know the person. But then, I've known people who dated for as long as six years before they got married, and then were divorced within six months!  I don't think I'd ever get married without first having lived with my partner.  

• mom said on Aug 15, 2007....

  Kruu- LOLOLOL, thanks well I never had a problem with one before, I am sure I will adapt even if I have to take it in parts. :)

• kruuyai said on Aug 15, 2007....

  mom:  LOL... why am I reminded of that shower scene from Psycho?  :)

• queenparanoia said on Aug 15, 2007....

  kruu sorry i didnt read the comments too long!!!! youre right sometimes i wish that kind of fairy tale marriage will come true. but does it exists? well dont worry your prince will come... if not there is always a pirate... =)

• Tuesday said on Dec 03, 2007....

  Kru,I'm newly married and still believes in fairy tales.I know that marriage isn't always a paved way, though. In the future, when things become so familiar, the spark may not be there ,maybe more boring times will come,or many differences will surface.
  I believe that LOVE is a decision Kru. When that time comes for me, I'll just decide to fall in love my husband all over again.

• kruuyai said on Dec 03, 2007....

  Tuesday:  I also believe that love is a decision.  In my case, I made a different decision, but I think you've got a good game plan.  :)

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