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Homosexuality is a major sin and an abomination unto the Lord. Jesus still loves you .. He just wants you to repent, accept him as your lord and savior, admit you're a sinner and turn from your wicked lifestyle.

Genesis 1:27-28:  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply

Leviticus 18:22:  Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination

Deuteronomy 23:17:  There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel

1 Kings 14:24:  There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

1 Kings 15:12:  He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made

1 Kings 22:46:  He rid the land of the rest of the male shrine prostitutes who remained there even after the reign of his father Asa.

2 Kings 23:7:  He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes, which were in the temple of the LORD and where women did weaving for Asherah.

Romans 1:26-27:  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."

1Corithians 6:9-10:  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate nor abusers of themselves with mankind Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:9-10:  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine."

Jude 1:7:  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire



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Comments

  • starchini said on Aug 08, 2007....
    Thou shalt not judge.  Gay people will be judged at st. peters gates just like you.  What makes being gay any worse than any of the sins YOU commit every day?  NOTHING...so please dont push your righteous hypocritical views onto anyone else but yourself.  Im not gay, i just believe that God wants his people to do more with their lives than chastize others for their personal choices.  To each their own.   Everyone is entitled to their own opinion i just wanted to put the other side on your blog.
  • NotSoSinglechick25 said on Aug 08, 2007....
    Thank you Starchini, well said.
    J
  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 08, 2007....
    Thank you for posting! It's always nice to hear opinions/thoughts/beliefs from the other side of the fence :)
  • Eilan said on Aug 08, 2007....
    "I've done everything the Bible says - even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"

    ~Ned Flanders
  • Artemis223 said on Aug 08, 2007....
    I was not aware that Jesus recognized a hierarchy of sin, placing homosexuality on the list of "major"offenses.  Any action that creates distance between a person and his or her creator can and should be considered sin.  Christ's sacrifice covers everything.  He did not suffer any more or less based on the magnitude of the sin.
     
    Sin is a betrayal of conscience, and the Biblical passages quoted above apply to sexual immorality as a whole, usurping love and intimacy with carnal desire.  I would need some pretty hard and fast proof that homosexuality is a conscious choice in order to categorize it as a sin, or "changing the natural use into that against nature."  Although homosexuality only occurs in a small percentage of the population, the existence of a minority in and of itself does NOT imply abberance.  Historical research estimates that 3.5% - 10.5% of the general population is homosexual, and that this statistic remains steady across culture and time (Scott Bidstrup).   Furthermore, there is additional research to suggest that such a figure exists even within the animal kingdom - Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity by Bruce Bagemihl.
     
    I am heterosexual, but have no recollection of ever contemplating this as a conscious decision.  It simply developed as I matured.  I would be curious to hear whether or not any homosexuals consider it a conscious choice.  Engaging in sexual activity is a conscious decision, and as such, can be considered sin under certain conditions, and that is true for both same sex and opposite sex partners.  Should homosexuals refrain from expressing their affection physically even if it is in keeping with their natural desires and within the confines of a monogomous, committed pair bond?   Would Jesus condemn people to a life of celibacy simply because their natural desire for intimacy involves the same sex? 
     
    The argument that same sex pairs cannot reproduce and therefore are unnatural needs further explanation as well.  If a woman or man is sterile but heterosexual, should all physical relations cease because they can no longer reproduce?
     
    I'm seeking answers and tread carefully in light of Matthew's gospel (7:2) "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
  • jasonrest said on Aug 09, 2007....
    You people baffle me. You repeat the same arguments having no clue of what you speak of. If you would close your mouth and take a course or something, perhaps you would understand all of the so-called contradictions, which are really not contradictions.
  • Artemis223 said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Jason -
     
    I have taken many courses and do not pretend to have all the answers.  Please share your perspective.
  • Artemis223 said on Aug 09, 2007....
    BTW - I know this is an emotional topic for a lot of people, but I really hope this will remain a sincere an civil discussion.  God is strong enough to withstand our questions as long as it is done in the true spirit of seeking knowledge.
  • boyzmom said on Aug 09, 2007....
    This post really isn't helpful at all. One has to accept Christ to be aware of what is a sin and what is not. Mostly these verses just show us that homosexuality has been around for thousands of years and that there is controversy on the subject.
  • skymir said on Aug 09, 2007....

    Matthew's gospel (7:2)  

    I respect that.

     

    But I do think the commentators should stop judging the poster as being judgmental. Indeed some people need to take their own advice. As far as I can see the poster was not judging homosexuals to be sinful, but rather relating words of the Book in ways that may apply to homosexuality.  I wonder if Jesus abolished the prohibitions on homosexuality in the same way general way that he abolished the dietary restrictions.

  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Gay people aren't themselves bad. They're great people. What was being spoken of is the lifestyle.
  • Artemis223 said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Hi sky - Just to be clear, I was applying Matthew to myself.  My questions are sincere, and I am hoping that this dialogue will continue in an open and respectful manner. 
     
    "I wonder if Jesus abolished the prohibitions on homosexuality in the same way general way that he abolished the dietary restrictions."  I actually wonder the same thing.
  • truthsayer said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Hmmm.  I am deciding whether or not I want to post on this.  The Bible really speaks for itself on the subject.  It lists all of those sins together.  So, I don't think anyone suggested a heirarchy; only quoting that it is an abomination...and that is what the Bible says. 
     
    Sodom and Gomorrah were wealthy, self-satisfied and selfish communities...they were given over to all of their carnal pursuits...greed, lust, avarice, etc.  They were not charitable because they were too busy satisfying themselves....in many ways.
     
    The only possible "heirarchy" mentioned, as far as sin goes, that I am aware of, is in regard sexual sin.  All sexual sin...homosexuality being one of them (check the lists above)...are especially (although I cannot really agree with the word choice "heirarchy") bad because other sins are external (below, Strongs Reference #1622, "without"), so to speak.  Sexual sins you are choosing to take, or allowing to come inside of your own body. 
     
    Here is 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 to illustrate:
     

    1Co 6:18 Flee5343 fornication.4202 Every3956 sin265 that3739 a man444 doeth4160, 1437 is2076 without1622 the3588 body;4983 but1161 he that committeth fornication4203 sinneth264 against1519 his own2398 body.4983

    1Co 6:19 What?2228 know1492 ye not3756 that3754 your5216 body4983 is2076 the temple3485 of the3588 Holy40 Ghost4151 which is in1722 you,5213 which3739 ye have2192 of575 God,2316 and2532 ye are2075 not3756 your own?1438

    1Co 6:20 For1063 ye are bought59 with a price:5092 therefore1211 glorify1392 God2316 in1722 your5216 body,4983 and2532 in1722 your5216 spirit,4151 which3748 are2076 God's.2316

     
    I copied the verse that has the Strong's Reference numbers, so that you can understand the original Greek, if you want to.
     
    Above, the words "fornication"/#4202 and "committeth fornication"/#4203 have the same root word, in Greek:  porn.
     
    4202 is porneia (pronounced por-ni'-ah) and means harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.
     
    4203 is porneuo (pronounced porn-yoo'-o) and means to act the harlot, that is, (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practice idolatry:  commit (fornication).
     
    So you see, all sexual sins are covered.  Incest being the only possible exception, and only for the children...where Jesus himself warns of His wrath if anyone "offends" or scandalizes, entraps, causes to trip up or entices a little one into sin:

    Mat 18:6 But1161 whoso3739, 302 shall offend4624 one1520 of these5130 little ones3398 which believe4100 in1519 me,1691 it were better4851 for him846 that2443 a millstone3458, 3684 were hanged2910 about1909 his846 neck,5137 and2532 that he were drowned2670 in1722 the3588 depth3989 of the3588 sea.2281

    Just remember that in Corinthians, Jesus is speaking TO THE CORINTHIANS, who are Christians.  A homosexual that has never known Jesus, or knowingly rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or manipulated the scriptures to "fit" his own personal concept of "God", which is just fashioning a little "g", god, and is idolatry...well, they are our mission fields, and until they reject Jesus...they are not judged the same as we are, yet. 

    We will all be judged.  It is just that Christians, wise Christians, are cleaning up their own act...themselves...with self control, self discipline and the washing of the Word, and renewing their minds with the Word, and thus, changing their behaviors and thoughts with the Word.

    Christians have to judge themselves.  They can confront other Christians that are sinning sins unto death.  But, unless a homosexual is a backslidden Christian, or one who has rejected Christ's sacrifice...they are living in carnality and ignorance, just like all Christians were before they accepted Jesus and our heavenly Father's free give of salvation, and grace.  But we aren't allowed to just keep sinning like 'the world' does afterwards.

    Did that help anyone?   

    Your friendly neighborhood Truthsayer.

     

     
     
  • truthsayer said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Oh yeah...that quote from Jesus would cover the warning to all child molesters, rapists and child pornographers, etc.  For that matter, since He thinks of us as His children, it is entirely possible that enticing anyone who believes in Him to sin (and others that are too young to choose, most likely), would bring the full wrath of God down upon that person, group, organization, institution, etc. 
     
    Food for thought,
     
    truthsayer
  • ThePainfulTruthBFTW said on Aug 09, 2007....

    Calling a sin a sin is not judging just like saying that one "should not" crosses an intersection against a red light is not the same as saying that person "will be" hit by a car and killed. They may or may not be. Do it enough times and bad things can happen. It is merle advice for ones well being. It is only pointing out a wrong or dangerous course of action. Take it or leave it. Telling one that they are going to hell for something is judging, not pointing out the fault.

    As for Jesus abolishing the prohibitions on homosexuality in the same general way that he abolished the dietary restrictions in the Old Testament? Is it written? Don’t you think people would have put that on the "List of Things I Can Get Away With" and noted it for all times? I don’t recall it ever being written where the homosexuals even tried to approach Jesus. Mmm? "The Son of God? His Father had Sodom and Gomorra destroyed? Naw that’s cool, I’ll stay right here!"

    TPT

  • lfbno7 said on Aug 09, 2007....
    The Bible is a reflection of the values and judgments of a bygone culture.  It was not written by the creator of the universe.  Therefore it should be taken for exactly what it is.
  • Artemis223 said on Aug 09, 2007....
    What confuses me most, I suppose, is the apparent absence of choice in being homosexual.  When looking at it from my own perspective, because I never consciously decided which sex I would be attracted to, I cannot identify with homosexuality, in and of itself being a sin.  Faulty Perfection clarifies somewhat by distinguishing between sexuality and lifestyle.
     
    I am far too honest to engage in sanctimony - according to Biblical guidelines, I am a fornicator, although that shall change on Sunday once I become Miguel's wife.  This is a separate issue.  I deserve to be judged (and God will do that, no need to join in) because it was my willful decision to engage in sexual relations prior to marriage.  I am fortunate that I am provided the opportunity to rectify the situation by marrying Mickey.  Under traditional fundamentalist guidelines, people who are gay have no such option.  What is the alternative then?  If the natural attraction of a person involves someone of the same sex, should that person remain celibate for their entire life? 
     
    I am not advocating promiscuity or immorality.  I am speaking of sexual intimacy within the confines of a lasting, loving commitment.
     
    Truthsayer, I think you make a good point in regards to sexual sin being particularly damaging.  It can really cause havoc on the emotional, physical, mental and spiritual wellbeing.  I am just not convinced we can call something sin when it does not involve conscious choice.  I guess the biggest hurdle I face is my deep seated belief that for some individuals, homosexuality is a natural tendency and the ability to express one's affections for another person using physical intimacy as a reflection of one's sexuality does not seem sinful to me, in and of itself, as long as there is a dedicated lifelong commitment to remain faithful.
  • shiningstar said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Jesus taught the people to not judge and set an example for all people by living his life without judging anyone.  Now,  use your own brain to ask your self the question of why would he  do that just so he could come back later and do what he refused to do while on earth???? Jehovah is the one who hated gay people.  But he also hated women, sick people,  crippled people,  animals and birds that were not perfect,  other gods the lame ,  the blind and the list goes on.  Jesus did'nt havea problem with anyone even those who tortured and killed him. So I don't think he would have a problem with gay people. Peace
  • lfbno7 said on Aug 09, 2007....
    homosexuality is not a sin, and anyone who believes it is, is just plain incorrect.  you get an x on your paper.  i have some good friends who are gay, and i don't appreciate hearing them insulted.
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Wait wait wait.  This is grand.  There is no heirarchy of sins as far as Christians and Christianity are concerned? 
  • skymir said on Aug 09, 2007....

    shiningstar,

    He taught people not to judge because people should not judge. The question is not if people should judge homosexuals to be sinful. That is easy to answer, a lazy mans debate.

    The question is weather or not G d will judge the homosexuals to be sinful and punish them accordingly. G d dose not have to answer to our morality and is not limited by what we consider to be fair, if he proclaims that something is a sin then you will be punished for it .  

    BTW are you sure that your would accept all of the implications of not judging people.

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 09, 2007....
    What a load of rubbish and funny at the same time.
     
    What gives you the right to judge (that is why I say this is a load of rubbish)
     
    Quoting lines from a contradictory and factless source is funny (thats why I said it was also funny)
     
    People should treat this post as the joke that it clearly is. The fact that this person took the time out of their day to write this is side splitting stuff.
     
    Get a life.
     
    SG
  • tizzygirl said on Aug 09, 2007....
    I don't understand why you posted this?  Was it pressing on your mind so much?  Were you so afraid for any gay person out there that you just had to post this because you felt you should take it upon yourself to "save their soul"?  I mean really, I don't understand, I don't believe it's your job to worry about them...I'm sure they can take care of themselves.  I'm sure they are all aware that some believe they are going to hell for who they are, and hopefully they don't care and they just keep on being themselves!!
  • shiningstar said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Skymir;  the God of all Life does not judge. Jesus did not judge. Only the religions teach judgement.  Jehovah,  the old,  vengeful,  war-god,  he judged.---Thepainful truth;;; It was not dietary restrictions that Jesus went against.  It was his way of showing that he was not following the laws of Jehovah.  Remember,  he was found guilty for the religious sin of blasphemy which means speaking against Jehovah and refusing to follow his laws. He found fault with no one.  Only religions and the people they create judge.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 09, 2007....
    ****And this just in......
     
    This blog is no more than a rant that eminated from a closet homosexual so enraged by his own feelings that he feels the need to spaz out about other like minded people.******
     
    News Cast over
     
    SG
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2007....

    "I mean really, I don't understand, I don't believe it's your job to worry about them."

    It is his job, and our job.  As human beings we have an obligation to look out for each other, not putting others before ourselves but heling them when and how we can.  If you think somebody is hurting themselves the least you can do is tell them.

  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2007....

    Double post.

  • anonymous said on Aug 09, 2007....
    I am sooooo tired of this crap--hey heres an idea-- lets take every possible verse out of context, interpret it for our own prosperity and then, wait heres the kicker, lets pass judgement on those people that it may offend! Yeah- sounds like fun!!!!! Hey , idiot, unless someone just tried to buttrape you with a large innadimate object GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!  And props to anyone who lets this guy know that the only true way to the Lord is your own PERSONAL relationship with his Son!!!!!!!
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Shut up Anon.  Your opinion (semi-valid) as it may be means nothing.
  • bloc said on Aug 09, 2007....
    I'm always curious about biblical interpretation. Like this line

    Deuteronomy 23:17:  There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel

    What significance is the "of israel" qualifier? 
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2007....
    I think that is quite clear, being of the people of Isreal.  Which at the time would have been the Jews, though it could/would logically extend to Christians. 
     
     
  • botoni said on Aug 09, 2007....

    It is with hesitancy that I respond to this post. I will make my statement first. I am both a born again evangelical Christian and an active homosexual. How very well I understand that my stance is considered very much to be heretical. My theological background comes from an evangelical college. One of my observations has been that we were carefully instructed to avoid considering any doctrine that was in counter position to that of the college we attended. I sense that most evangelical schools and churches have the same attitude.
    Ignoring the ban on researching other possibilities lead me to discover authors and theologians who refute the common interpretation of the scriptures quoted by the poster. If the goal is to seek truth then I suggest that examining both sides of a debate with an open mind might provide an altered perspective. I would challenge anyone who sincerely has an interst in this topic to look at the large amount of literature available that strongly disagrees with the interpretations seen here. Seek out some of the authors listed below.
    Dale Martin
    Carl Ridd
    Frederick Gaiser
    Guenther Haas
    John Boswell
    Margaret Davies
    Mark Ellingsen
    Charles Beal
    Francis Bridger
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Wow.  Just wow.  I'm gonna start looking for Jewish Nazi's now. 
  • bloc said on Aug 09, 2007....
    @sean
    Why would it logically extend to christians, and more importantly, why would it extend to non christians?
  • botoni said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Sean.....Your comment is the perfect example of what I was trying to express. Thank you for contributing to my contention.
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2007....
    It would logically extend to Christians because Christians are Jews the Next Generation for a lack of better terms.  They believe all the things that Jews believe and then added new things.  The Christ was a Jew, so on and so forth.  It seems logical that anything that is included in the Bible and refers to Jews or Isreal (unless refering to Isreal as a physical location) or Jews as a bloodline rather than a nationality would extend to Christians.
     
    I wouldn't think that it would extend to no Christians.  It shouldn't, but then the Bible is filled in a number of places on how non-Christians are to be treated.  So I'm not sure this is the time to be pointing out that law x doesn't apply because I'm not part of the club.
     
    Botani: As I'm not sure if that was sarcastic (as I think would be most appropriate for my snide remark) or honest I'm going to fall back on descretio being the better part of valor and thank you.
  • shiningstar said on Aug 09, 2007....
    The quote given applied only to the chosen, particular people.  The Hebrew nation. Obviously it is not seeing the sodomite or whore as a "good" thing. It is a judgement against them given by Jehovah the old war-god.  Jesus did not judge anyone. People,  of course,  have been taught that the two are one hence Jesus taught to not mix the old(Jehovah)  with the new (Jesus).  Having done that our world is in both confusion and war with all religions calling themselves the one right one.Peace
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Sean, you make me laugh (not in a "what an idiot) kind of way. You just speak my language more often than not and tend to get similar responses to me.
     
    SG
  • botoni said on Aug 09, 2007....
    Sean.....I fired back rather suddenly there. I apologize. Your remark actually is very humorous.
  • lfbno7 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Botoni, I have a dear friend who is a lesbian and recently became a Muslim.  I told her that her Muslim friends would want her to be whipped if they knew she was a lesbian, and she keeps that secret from them.  I advised her to check into the Unitarian Universalists, who openly welcome homosexuals.  But that didn't interest her.

    What about you?  It seems to me that Christians are not on your side.  Apparently you found some who are.  But it does seem a little like the "Jewish Nazi" syndrome.  You are with a group that, for the most part, calls you a sinner.

    Have you ever had any contact with the UU's?  Do you have an emotional connection to Christianity that is far more important to you than joining a group that would accept every part of you wholeheartedly?  There are a lot of Christian UU's who prefer the liberality of their religion to the conservatism of their former religion.

    You remind me of Jackie Robinson.  He said that blacks should join the Republican party, not the Democrats.  He believed that it was the Republicans who needed to have an infusion of black members.  People misunderstood him and thought he was some kind of Uncle Tom for being a Republican, but he was infiltrating the enemy and trying to make them friends.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 10, 2007....
    If you are not hurting anyone then do what you want to do. I have no problem with homosexuals, not my personal life choice but I could catch aids if I slept with a woman.
     
    As a great man once said...
     
    "Take care of yourselves..... Aaaand each other" (a lollipop to the one who post the sayer of this phrase first)
     
    SG
  • shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Would not you have to judge someone in order to call anything a SIN??? Jesus taught to not judge.  And if God,, with the Big G made everything then are not homosexuals part of everything?  This is just another way to pit people against people the way of relgion not the way of the Masters.  Peace.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 10, 2007....
    I would consider a sin to be intentionaly inflicting pain on another human being. Simple as that.
     
    If you are not hurting other people then get on with it, whats he big deal. If you think its disgusting then dont watch it or look for it. I can happily live my live without it bothering me so why cant others.
     
    SG  
  • botoni said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Ifbno7.....Yes I m familiar with the Unitarian stance. Several of my friends find they are comfortable in their affilitation there. At this particular time in my life I do not attach myself to any particular branch of Christianity. That is to say I am a believer but I do not regularly attend a church. I have been affiliated with Metropolitan Community Church in the past, a gay affirming Christian community. In Canada there are United Churches who are gay affirming as well as Anglican. I believe that would translate into Methodist and Episcopalian in the USA. I do have a sense that change will come from within the church rather than from outside pressure. I hold some historic events as evidence that change will happen in time. Christians have done horrendous things in the past in the belief that they were right. The Inquisition, the affirmation of slavery and even denial of divorce. Today we look on those things as appalling. We even have difficulty seing that the Inquisition was fuelled by the belief that it was necessary to save souls. We want to ignore how strongly the church supported slavery and we consider it ludicrous that a divorced individual would be rejected by any church. The same change will happen regarding homosexuality. It is happening now and will continue to happen. Perhaps not in my lifetime but I am certain there will be a time when homosexuality and Christianity will have no issues.
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 10, 2007....

    SG- what the hell does AIDS have to do with any of this-

    Botoni- You are amazing!! Thank you for putting a spin on this idiocy that these people so obviously need to read...

    Seanrenaud- Please dont tell people to shut up- it is not very christian of you now is it?

     

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 10, 2007....

    I was stating that homosexuals cant be described as being the spreaders of aids because it can be contracted from either gender. Alot of religious people who disagree with a homosexual way of life say that they are dirty and spread disease. This is not entirly factual.

    Help you at all??

    SG

  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 10, 2007....

    SG- Jerry Springer-smart man!

    Got it-"Disease spreaders"- I hope that that is not your personal opinion- as it is pretty damn naive! And really for anyone who really calls homosexuals disease spreaders- needs to get out of the 80's and live in the now..

  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Labeledandbrandedddumb:  I'm not Christian, I'm aetheist.  I've been rather polite to the Christians in this post save botoni (who for some reason apologized, but she's just a great person) and whatever you want to label shiningstar who thinks murderers and rapists should be left alone to terrorize society.
     
    And calling homosexuals, gays in particular disease spreaders is not a faulty 80's mentality.  It's a simple fact.  Anal sex (which makes up a greater % of gay male sex than it does with male female relations, and obviously greater than it does with female female as they lack cocks) causes small tears in the skin that allow disease to spread more readily. 
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 10, 2007....
    wow- you called me dumb- good one!! Sorry about the "aetheist thing" And the simple "fact" is that more African American's have AIDS than gays. And being polite - well- pin a rose on your nose- there is absolutely nothing polite in gay bashing no matter what your beliefs on the subject are.. Agree to disagree-- however I will say this- and perhaps you will actually agree- Christians give Christians a bad name!!!!!! this is no exception-Faulty Perfection - you indeed have proven to be faulty! Repent!!!!!!!!
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 10, 2007....
    duplicate
     
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
     
    I like you thus far.  Your name is too easy to make fun of though.  The AIDS epidemic is really bad amongst blacks, that doesn't change how it is transmitted.  I wasn't gay bashing though, not realy they are just more at risk than non gays.
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 10, 2007....
    my name?? Easy to make fun of?? How??
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 10, 2007....
    oh- AIDS- actually most African Americans- coming from or living in Africa dont get it from Anal Sex- they get it from disease ridden bug bites and intolerable living situations... Or just drug using needle whores
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Oh boy, this went wrong in a hurry.

    faulty-perfection made a point about homosexuality that is supported by the verses above. According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. So why are people angry at or insulting faulty perfection here?

    Really, SG, is there no limit to your snarkiness? :) You jump into a blog, make controversial comments, and now you and Renaud get to bandy words with labeledandbranded. There's better, more mature ways to discuss this issue than jokingly suggesting the poster is a closet homosexual. I expected more than that from ya on this one, dude.

    This is a very loaded topic. botoni, I admire your faith, but I am concerned your active support of something the Bible clearly states as a sin might compromise the good you seek to do for God. He loves you no more or less than He would if you were heterosexual, the Bible assures that - but living in sin contradicts our effectiveness as Christians. Take for instance a Christian who gets drunk regularly and makes an ass of himself. How is he making God look good when he's yelling loudly, passing out, and making his friends take care of him? He's being gluttonous with alcohol, and while he may never drink enough to get himself killed, he is doing a world of harm to his body, and his testimony to Jesus Christ. I think your situation might be similiar in living as both a Christian and a homosexual - you may not be condemned for it, but the contradiction may make you less effective in serving the God you love.

    If no one accepts the Bible, or acknowledges it but doesn't consider it truth, then of course they're not going to understand when God says that homosexuality is wrong. Nonchristians run the risk of criticizing God's laws without having a clue what God is saying, or why He said it.
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
    What?  I'd like to see just one study proving that it is even possible for the AIDS virus to survive long enough in an insect to be transmitted to human beings?  In Africa the epidemic is incredible due mostly to ignorance and stubborness both of the teachers going over (Christians would rather they die of AIDS than use condoms and go against God) and the natives aren't exactly flocking to accept western medicine and practices.
     
    I didn't call anybody a homo.  I just saided that labeledandbrandeddumb is really easy to just tag words onto and make fun of.  I probably would have done something similar even if I was agreeing with her.
     
    This has actually been rather tame in many ways, I've yet to attack faulty logic here but don't worry, it's coming sooner or later.
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    LOL Renaud, Christians are IN Africa helping AIDs victims and orphans live, and last I heard, abstinence has a 100% success rate. Not everyone will listen to that, but then again they're responsible for pregnancy or STD's now, aren't they?

    And you weren't the person I was referring to on most of the points in which you defended yourself. You're all good, man. You don't have to attack anybody.
  • bloc said on Aug 10, 2007....
    @lid
    I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but the idea that the Church's teachings against birth control isn't making the aids problem worse is faulty at best.
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Abstinance might be 100% safe.  Thing is that people have sex, tell them no. They have sex.  Tell them they might get a disease.  They have sex.  Tell them they might die.  They have sex.  Studies have shown circumcision to be up to 60% effective in preventing transmission.  Condoms are in the 90's when properly used. 
     
    Helping people live is great, but the attitude about condoms in particular is damaging to the cause.  I don't want to help these people live, I want to help them not contract the virus any more.  Once they've got it. . .honestly these people don't have the resources to properly care for their healthy young.  They have problems with malaria, not to mention random warlord.  Resources used on people who are for all intensive purposes already dead, when there are healthy people who could use those resources is brutal.  It's not like in the US where starvation is something we read about in books.  If we spend a million dollars keeping Terry Schaivo alive we aren't actually taking food away from kids on skid row (the money could still be better spent but it isn't the same situation.
     
    We should be raining condoms from the sky.  Probably DDT also.  Stupid lefty enviromentalists.
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 10, 2007....

    Lid- I am insulting Faulty-P here because I feel that he did this on purpose to get a rise out of a place where people come to be comfortable with their religious beliefs- whatever they may be and their sexuality. I feel that this was an attack on freedom on this sight and he knew better- If Sean would stop his egotistical behavior for one minute he might realize that we actually do agree here that FP was wrong inposting this and should be spending his days reading about Persecution and HYPOCRACY,  instead of worrying about what goes on in peoples bedrooms. The Lords work does not consist of hate or confusion...

     

    Sean- my name is directed at those people who in highschool got off on making fun of others for stupid things- such as a name- point proven..

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Hey bloc!

    Not every church is taking a faulty stance on birth control. I know as well as anyone that people are going to have sex regardless, but it's such a taboo topic in the church because of the false belief that everyone is doing what they should. It's a tricky thing, because if sex was intended to be only within marriage, then teaching birth control with condoms, contraceptives, etc., is like admitting defeat to the church. What it ultimately comes down to is  that the human body is capable of enough self-control to abstain from sex. Not that it's easy, but it's hard to catch any STD when you're keeping it in your pants.

    The good thing about Christians going out in the mission field (aka the world) aren't resting on their laurels, but are actively trying to not only give medicine and teach abstinence, but to educate those in Africa about the consequences of sex and why abstaining from it is in their best interest. Giving them good and teaching them to properly cultivate crops is also happening. Even secular institutions are raising money for aid. Condoms may help too, it's just that if what I learned in sex ed was true, the HIV strain is smaller than the pores/holes in the latex of a condom.

    Renaud - should we stop giving aid altogether if the people in Africa are a lost cause? I don't think that's what you're seriously saying, I'm just asking to clarify. LoL on the raining condoms/DDT from the sky. We can't assure that every resource and dollar is well spent on care, but only with what we have in front of us. Some will fight to keep a woman past recovery alive, while others are doing what most of us aren't willing to - travel to a foreign country and teach impoverished people ravaged by disease how to live day to day, and to love them in the process.
  • botoni said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Lidstorm thank you for a very diplomatic answer. Our point of difference is that I believe there is nothing in the bible that teaches against homosexuals. That is why I noted the authors and theologians that I did. Each of them refute what has been used to teach anti-homosexual doctrine. I m suggesting that an open minded approach would be to seek out some of the teachings that vary from the traditional and see for ones self if there is some truth to be had.
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
    ::Shruggle::  What can I say, certain simple things bring me pleasure.  I don't need to know the air speed of European Swallow.  A fart joke will do just fine a lot of the time.
     
     
    Can't seem to find percentages to back up what "highly" means as far as effectiveness.
     
    The condoms was a joke, the DDT wasn't.  DDT is THE most effective pestacide in the world and could be the single biggest step towards eliminating Malaria and other mosquito transmitted diseases.  Since it was hypothesised (and seemingly discredited) that it thinned the egg shells of birds or prey (Eagles specifically) it was banned.  I might support enviromentalists in a lot of things I draw the line when we are saying that the lives of hawks and doves>human life.  Which is the only way you can justify not using it.
     
    If they are a complete lost cause then maybe we should cut them off entirely.  I don't feel that they are all lost though.  I feel that our funds are being mis spent and that we know they are being misspent.  It's never going to be perfect that much is obvious.  Countries where warlords are eating up all the food should be cut off, we can't help those people.  Once again people who have terminal illnessess should not be kept alive while healthy children starve.  Explain to me the point of prolonging the life of a terminally ill individual who cannot (or should not) breed when it means not giving enough food to children who have as of yet untapped potential. 
     
    When you start looking at it globally, we can afford to pour money into Africa.  Most of the West doesn't know anything about starvation, or extreme poverty.  Those things don't "really" happen in the US or Europe.  If the situation were different and 20% of Americans were starving or severly malnourished I would change my tune.
     
    Short answer.  The dying should never, under any circumstances take precedence over the living.  Particularly the young.
  • shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....
    The thing is,  for me at least,  is that funding is withheld from any agency that would provide any alternative to total abstinence including condoms. CNN has reported on this any many other sources.  The countries where birth control is prohibited or not available are the countrie where women are the most supressed. These countries are under heavy religious control and of course that means women have no rights except to serve the men. The more children the people have the poorer they are and the less their chances are of ever having any power or ending their poverty.Where religion rules poverty is deep and the religious leaders live in splendor while the masses starve in the streets.Starvation kills many of the children that a condom or birth control measures would have prevented.
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Damnit Shinning stop making sense!  Who am I gonna call stupid if you keep making sense making inteligent points!?
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Thanks for your feedback, botoni. What I must ask though is this: what about the Bible's words that faulty-perfection quoted in this post? Based on them, it's pretty clear.

    The worry I have is that ANYONE can justify or twist what the Bible says. Some people have good insights on God's Word, but sometimes a good person with the wrong idea can lead people astray. "Teachings that vary from the traditional" promote thought, yes, but if you live your life for Christ, and He was the Word of God made man, how is it not a contradiction to be homosexual and worship a God that speaks against it? That is not an attack, but rather a pointed question to consider: some scholars will say things about the Bible that, well, aren't biblical. And that's when Christians get in trouble - when they don't hold to the Bible that's supposed to be their authority on how to live life.

    Consider, botoni, that God's Word doesn't speak out against homosexuality to condemn you personally. If you believe God is loving, then the commandments He gives are to protect ourselves, and each other. He naturally shaped man and woman to be sexually compatible with each other, and although some people are anti-gay in a hateful manner, they are pointing to what should naturally be. I believe God does not promote homosexuality because He knew mankind would pick up on the natural act of sex, and ridicule anything that deviated from the norm. That is just my thought, though. Think about it though: if God knew some people would be jerks about the way He naturally created us, to the point where those jerks would condemn homosexuals, then He may have decided that homosexuality was too controversial for humans to participate in.

    Another aspect is that what God created in mankind was a miracle in itself, and for us to use our bodies contrary to what He intended might be a sin by itself. Like water...I've used this analogy before...water is something we use every day, but using water to drown someone is a sin. Likewise, what the Romans verse above states, it is not part of God's natural plan to use human bodies to excite or pleasure those of the same gender. We're taking something good and doing something harmful with it.

    Aside from the argument that anal sex in homosexual men cause microtears in the rectum, and STD's, there are few medical risks to homosexual union. You don't get pregnant, and for women, sex can be physically less invasive than it is with a man. But just because there are few physical consequences doesn't mean there are no consequences at all.

    Another example: A man can become addicted to porn without hurting anybody else, and unless his addiction physically exhausts or harms him, there are no physical dangers to his addiction. But if sharing intimacy with images in a magazine or computer screen take precedence over real human interaction, then the man's increasingly antisocial behavior has hurt him.

    So like the porn-addicted guy, although there aren't life-threatening dangers to homosexual union, aspects of it can cause stress, tension, unwanted persecution, and long-lasting consequences that God never intended. In that case, it is NOT unloving for God to have homosexuality counted as a sin in His Word; He is protecting us from the hardship of doing an unnatural thing, and protecting us from the hate and persecution of those who don't reflect God's love - even if they call themselves Christian.

    I write all that to you, botoni, to say that the Bible DOES speak out against homosexuality, but the reasons it does so is because God seeks to protect us from harm inflicted from others, and also because He naturally created us to be aroused by the opposite sex. I think homosexuality can be caused by one's environment, but I also think it can be a natural vise that we discover early in life, like anger issues, anxiety, impulsive behavior, thrillseeking, etc. Does God set people free from those things? Absolutely. There is a danger in assuming homosexuality is a natural thing, and that danger is risking a chasm between us and God, made purely out of our own disobedience.
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Thanks for the info on DDT, Renaud. I did not know that. But I don't think anyone can champion life in general if they leave countries of people to die just because they are subjected to a warlord's rule. That sounds like an isolationist view in a way. You know, let Hitler invade Poland; forget the millions of Jews that will die, because they're a lost cause under the rule of a man eager to fight.

    Jesus commanded His disciples to essentially give a damn about the people you suggest we give up on, Renaud. You're essentially saying, try to cure the people with a chance to survive, who can enjoy health. That's like survival of the fittest, and it makes sense in the animal kingdom. But humanity is called to be more than that. If people are dying in Africa, help them live a higher quality of life, and try to save the lives of the diseased. At the very least, offer love and comfort to ease their passing. You're right - most of the West doesn't know what it means to starve to death - but privileged nations, or those not ruled by warlords, are not the only ones worthy of receiving care and attention.
  • bloc said on Aug 10, 2007....
    "What it ultimately comes down to is that the human body is capable of enough self-control to abstain from sex."

    This may be true at the micro level, but not at the macro level ;)
  • botoni said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Lidstrom....I am very familiar with your presentation and well spoken as it is I disagree with it. Today we use a bible that has been translated from languages that we dont clearly understand. I am not scholarly enough to pretend that I do understand. My contention is that there can be translations of the bible and/or of some passages that are less than accurate. Yes I do know the arguement that the holy spirit guided translations. I do have to throw some weight into the thought that the King James version was popularized by a king who wanted divorce to be acceptable. He even formed a new church so that he wouldnt have to be limited by the doctrines of Rome. I suspect that there just might be some room to see other sides. The arguement that theologians who disagree with mainsteam traditional thinking are heretical doesnt hold much weight for me either.
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Haha...macro level :)

    I'm telling you, as crazy as it sounds, a person can choose to not have sex, and actually stick to it. What's the opinion of everyone here? Is it within your paradigm, or totally unheard of, to have enough self-control to abstain from sex?

  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
    You mis-interpreted my point on warlords.  This isn't about letting Hitler invade Poland.  This is about not giving national aid to Nazi Germany even if there are starving Jews.  What good does it do to give Hitler money, he's not going to feed the Jews he's going to build tanks.   It doesn't help them and infact it might be hurting them by funding their oppressors.  (If the warlords were opressing the commoners I'd have less problem funding them)
     
    Honestly humanity gets by on survival of the fittest the farther we get from that the worse things will get.  I don't believe human kind is called period or is in any way capable of being more than what is natural in some cases.  That said you are still missing my point.  If we can save the diseased then we should.  Look at Africa or many south Asian or South American nations.  Each person needs say 5.00 worth of food to survive (This number is being chosen at random) and 10.00 to live comfortably.  In these nations we have 6.00 for every two people.  We can either A.  Give 6 dollars to the child so he will grow up and maybe contribute.  or we can B split it down the middle and give the child 3.00 per day and let him slowly starve to death while giving the other 3.00 to somebody who is already dead. 
     
    You can make up option C.  Create more money.  but that isn't the way things are now.  Sorry as somebody who doesn't believe in an overwhelming plan to the world I have to allocate my limited resources in the way that I think will help most in the long run.  
     
    I personally cannot justify keeping the diseased alive if it means the farmer goes hungry.  He then dies and nobody gets fed.  OR the child and we don't even know what he might have grown to do. 
  • shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....
    How are you doing with that 82?
  • bloc said on Aug 10, 2007....
    @lid
    the problem is that I see no reason to abstain from sex, even if I weren't married. I'm sure that any randomly choose person can abstain if given enough motivation, but I don't believe that it's possible for most people to abstain. Yeah, it's an enigma, but true :)

    Then again, I remember what my hormones were like at 18 and I'm not sure I could have abstained back then? Did you?
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    In other words botoni, you take the Bible with a grain of salt because of possibly faulty translations that it has been passed down from? Don't you think an all-powerful God would preserve a message through man, taking into account minor imperfections that come along with imperfect people translating thousands upon thousands of words?

    My concern is that you're going outside what the Bible says, and discounting what it says on this one issue, but what other parts of it can you discount? Or is it just this one part about homosexuality? It's a slippery slope, my friend. For instance, I hate hearing about the Great Commission because it makes me feel like I need to spend all my time overseas, actually sharing faith with someone who's never heard of Christ. I know on some level, I need to do that, and while I don't like hearing it, and would prefer to live in a country that largely has no idea of what poverty really looks like, I accept what God's Word says because it challenges me beyond the limits I put on myself, or God.

    Ask yourself if homosexuality is a given that you've decided to accept, and thus you've limited the Bible to fit it, when in actuality God could increase much more in your life by living out all of His Word. It is fair to say that many fellow Christians would look at you as a walking contradiction solely because of what the Bible says, and what the Bible says might need to carry more weight with you than it currently does. Sure that sucks to hear, but Jesus challenged us to be humble and accept instruction, and the Bible offers that. We risk doing worse than mistranslating it when we point to the Word and say "Oh, that doesn't really mean that."
  • botoni said on Aug 10, 2007....
    I understand your thought and your contentions Lindstrom. Equally I understand and appreciate your concern. Perhaps I believe as strongly that there are possibilities that men and mechanisms of churches have chosen to lock themselves into a view that may not be totally accurate. I do believe that an Omnipotent God can protect us from errant learnings. I also believe that same God could have protected us from such things as we have done in His name if we had chosen to hear Him rather than the teachings of leaders who carried their own agenda. I go back to again to the Inquisition and slavery. They were believed by the masses to be the will of God at that time. I dont think God or His intent changed. I think people changed. I also think those changes were good. I wouldnt want to live with slavery today. I believe there are strong parallels. Who are we really supposed to accept instruction from? Or has God given us the intelligence to see choices and to practice our beliefs according to the light we have?
  • bloc said on Aug 10, 2007....
    "Don't you think an all-powerful God would preserve a message through man, taking into account minor imperfections that come along with imperfect people translating thousands upon thousands of words?"

    This is the primary reason I'm not a christian. I do think an all powerful god would do that, but then I read the Bible and ...
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
    To come clean on the matter, although I fooled around around the time I became a Christian, I didn't actually have sex with anyone until I married my wife. That was a period of 7 years without sex or "personal happy time."

    I remember reading a post once that asked about first sexual experiences. And do you know what? Most people regretted their first sexual experience. Some said it was awkwardly done out of obligation, it was forced on them, it hurt, it wasn't what t hey expected it to be, and whatnot.

    I goofed up by having a bad first relationship, and though no sex happened, it wasn't far off. That was at age 18 when hormones were the worst, bloc. But I asked God for forgiveness and committed to being physically pure. I didn't have sex until the wedding night with my wife 7 years later, and I have absolutely no regrets about that. It's something I'll only share with my wife, and I saved myself a LOT of regret and heartache by not having sex sooner. So yeah shining, it worked out for me pretty well :)

    I am sorry for misinterpreting some of your points, Renaud. To be fair, some of those points aren't entirely clear, and survival of the fittest is NOT the best the human race has to offer to members of its own kind who are dying. The further we get away from it, well...it would be better or worse depending on where we went from there. Value life, man...yeah it blows when we try to give money and aid to the poor, and drug runners or warlords somehow intercept that and use it for their own ends...but the minute we stop trying to care for the dying, even if they seem unreachable, is the minute we had the chance to do great good, and instead chose to do nothing.
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
    No masturbation for 7 years?  ;-)  Great job lidstrom.
     
    I think a lot of people (women) have negative sex the first time, I highly doubt that would change though if they were married or that they would feel any less (probably more) obligated on their wedding night than on prom night.  I also doubt that a man whose never had sex is going to give a woman any more pleasure or handle her "properly" than any other man who's never had sex.
     
    Also my point is that you are being naive.  Instead of saving one person that we can save and doing nothing for the other you would have us go halfway for both and twice as many people die.
     
    No trust me survival of the fittest is a good thing even for humans.  Say what you want about Christians said this or said that but who do you think was reproducing in a society where women were largely bought and men were (somewhat) encouraged to have only a single wife.  Give you a hint, it wasn't the hobos.
  • bloc said on Aug 10, 2007....
    Just to reiterate what sean said, the first time is going to be awkward and all that regardless of when it occurs. It's going to hurt for the women regardless unless ... .

    Btw, asking for forgiveness doesn't prevent std's ;) I know you didn't do it, but how many people couldn't resist that urge? 
  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 11, 2007....

    THE LOVE OF GOD

    1 John 4:8: Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    1 John 4:7-11: Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    God is the Creator of all things, and by His very nature, He is love. God says love is unconditional and sacrificial, and it's not based on feelings; therefore, love is not an "intense affection… based on familial or personal ties". To understand what true love is and to be able to truly love others, we must know God, and we can do this through a close personal relationship with Him. We can have that close relationship with God by putting our faith in Jesus Christ, who was God's sacrifice of love for us.

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 11, 2007....

    Faulty perfection this is just an example of faulty logic.

    SG

  • skymir said on Aug 11, 2007....

    faulty_perfection,

     

    Congratulations on a very successful post, I think it went well overall. It is regrettable that a few bigots could not separate what you were trying to say from their own stereotypes. But I do think that you have achieved something worth the energy. Have an open mind and do not fall in to the same pit that some of your detractors accuse you form the depths of.

     

  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 12, 2007....
    Thank you, Skymir. The detractors are more than welcome to wallow in whatever pit they choose to. They seem quite happy to try to force those who disagree to accept that the homosexual lifestyle is perfectly natural. I wish them the best of luck in their attempt to continue to convince themselves and others that it is.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 12, 2007....
    I think you may be a closet case. Many Preists and preachers have been in the past. Quite alot of history of homosexuality in the church, maybe you will come out one day and add to that staticstic.
     
    SG
  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 12, 2007....
    SG ... thing is - I'm not catholic. there's no desire to hop around molesting little children hoping it's considered normal. Nice try on lumping me in with perverts and weirdos.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 12, 2007....
    So catholics are the child molestors etc...? Gay people dont hurt you yet you choose to tell them god will not accept them. If god exists then Im sure you are not him and im also sure that if he does exist then you are not the one to go to in order to find out what he thinks about things.
     
    You are criticisng people using words from a book which is totaly unreliable has been edited many times and is only an account of what man thinks and not god.
     
    Ever heard this saying... "Dont throw stones if you live in a glass house" Your stance on this matter is definatly made of glass and you should not criticise others when people who follow your religion have been responsible for much worse than any homosexual has been responsible for throughout history.
     
    SG
  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 12, 2007....

    SG ... I have yet to hear, see or read of anything other than CATHOLIC priests harming children. If clergy from other denominations have done this, then please feel free to post .. with references.

    On another note. I never said that the PEOPLE were horrible. I said it was the LIFE STYLE CHOICES that were. I'm friends with several gays that are wonderful, giving people ... it is their choice to deviate from normal relationships that is the problem. Please learn to separate one from the other.

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 13, 2007....
    You also dont have the right to decide what is normal and what is not. You can have an opinion on it but you dont have the right to dictate to others what is normal and what isnt. Im not saying that you are dictating to others I just hope that you dont.
     
    Come on, im not going to list all the cases of child abuse involving christians... I would take up more space than soul cast has room on its servers for. People all faiths commit crimes the religion is not important. The moral high ground you take in this instance has fallen away under your feet. Anyone from any faith can commit a crime, christians have commited many so they are far from blameless.
     
    SG
  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 13, 2007....
    I'm sorry if posting my beliefs offends you. You still have the right to stop reading my posts if it bothers you that much. I'm sure there are others here on SC that will be better able to cater to what you want to hear.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 13, 2007....

    I never said I was offended. Quote me if i did.

    SG

  • anonymous said on Aug 13, 2007....
    SG .... why are you letting this get to you?? This person has the same right to post THEIR beliefs as you have to post yours. Be the bigger man and just let it go. If they want to be an ignorant asstard, let 'em. It aint hurtin you any.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 13, 2007....

    He has the right to say what he wants, but people need to be questioned when they have these beliefs and talking to people that have these beliefs make me feel more normal and alot less of an asstard lol.

    SG - out

  • one_wired_kitty said on Aug 13, 2007....

    True. Question away ... but I really don't see what good is going to come about by pressing this issue further with the original poster. They have yet - as far as I can see - to come up with an intelligent response. If i were you - which I'm not - I wouldn't bother with this post any further since there seems to be a lack of intelligible conversation on the part of faulty_perfection. 

    btw - I made the anonymous comment ... LOL. Wanted to dome sumfin different.
  • ThePainfulTruthBFTW said on Aug 13, 2007....

    SG…This is funny! Do you remember writing this "Science is an evolutionary process in itself because it simply dosnt believe something until it is proven unlike religion. Its like two kids in a classroom, one uses the same text book for 5 years (The bible) and the other uses a text book that is updated (edited/changed) every 6 months (Science)." Then you write above "You are criticisng people using words from a book which is totaly unreliable has been edited many times and is only an account of what man thinks and not god." I’m sorry but just going off of that where is the difference? I think I would rather trust in something that did not flip flop every six months to use your example.

    TPT

  • bloc said on Aug 13, 2007....
    @tpt "I’m sorry but just going off of that where is the difference?"

    Do you really not see the difference? Btw, science doesn't flip flop every 6 months. Our understanding of gravity has been pretty consistent for a while just to give one example. I'm also certain that you use many things developed by science (planes) and that you go to a doctor and not a priest when you are seriously injured or ill.
  • AlisonMarie19 said on Aug 13, 2007....

    Hold on there Faulty.....

    "SG ... thing is - I'm not catholic. there's no desire to hop around molesting little children hoping it's considered normal. Nice try on lumping me in with perverts and weirdos." and "I have yet to hear, see or read of anything other than CATHOLIC priests harming children. If clergy from other denominations have done this, then please feel free to post .. with references."

    So you're saying that Catholics are weirdos and perverts? How very Christ-like of you to judge other people. And there are PLENTY of people who harm kids. Not just Catholic priests. And just because *you* haven't heard about it, doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.

                    ali

  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 13, 2007....

    I'm not referring to outside religion. I'm well aware there are perverts in secular society. I'm still talking in regards to religion. You have yet to name off any major protestant denomination with nearly as many pervs and pedos as catholicism ... which leads me to believe there aren't any.

  • truthsayer said on Aug 13, 2007....

    My little friend StupidG. You really are a venomous kind of guy.  You started this with faulty perfection.   Is your problem that you don't like what you used to be, or what you are now?  

    Now, for my purposes in this discussion, you said:

    "You also dont have the right to decide what is normal and what is not. You can have an opinion on it but you dont have the right to dictate to others what is normal and what isnt. Im not saying that you are dictating to others I just hope that you dont."

    Welllll....let's take a look at science, shall we?  What is normal in the animal world?  Is it "normal" for elephants to have homosexual intercourse?  Or is it "normal" for a male elephant to mount a female elephant.  Not discounting the very small percentage of animals that do deviate...and they are much more than one or two standard deviations above or beyond the mean.  The same is true for humans little think buddy.  By the way, that statistic tends to increase when a population is endangered...and I understand from my PhD psych friend that they have evidense of populations that are facing extinction having even higher stats.

    Kinda makes you think.  Doesn't it?

    As far as the text book thing goes guys.  Knowledge of that kind changes all of the time, facts change..."The Truth" doesn't.  Look up the definition of a "fact" and then juxtapose that with Absolute Truth...whether you believe in Absolute Truth or not, that is irrelevant.  That is what Christians...or should I say true believers, understand, that you simply do not.  You believe in facts which are transient at best, and quite possibly misunderstood, incomplete or incorrect at worst. 

    One last thing.  This conversation deteriorated, not because faulty perfection is another hypocritical Christian (I don't know him/her well enough to make that judgement, nor is it my concern here)...as you would like to believe...but because several of you made nasty, judgemental and sleezy remarks about faulty's sexual orientation and his/her character.  You are naughty little boys, and you should have been punished by your parents.  Wait, maybe it was just stupidg and one other person.  You blew any credibility you had, or might have had, with me...with that action. 

    Faulty, you cannot let these guys bait you like that.  All priests are not molesters.  You really started off better...I know, these guys are slick.  But in order to do what Jesus said to do, you have to learn to be shrewd as a serpent and harmless as a dove.  Your scriptures are correct.  They are self explanatory.  But, I don't think most homosexuals "feel" like they can control it.  

    I had one friend that really wanted to control it.  He wanted to get married and have children.  But he said it was sooo hard.  He gave me a lot of insights into the homosexual lifestyle.  It was pretty scary.  But he ended up choosing celebacy.  

    I have one other friend that wasn't even what I would call a homosexual...he was bisexual, but that's not what I mean.  He actually fell madly in love with a woman.  He was still in love with her.  But they couldn't be together.  Anyway, he was still hooked on the lifestyle.  He got off on it.  He was addicted to it, for lack of a better term. 

    Most people, if they felt safe enough to admit it to us, would like to have what we have...in varying degrees of what they perceive that "we have".  We are all different.  But they feel unworthy.  Too dirty.  Too many things they think do and say that they feel like they cannot stop.  Things that they know the Bible is clear about.  But they feel lost in it.  That's if they feel safe enough to admit it, remember that.  At least, that's my experience.  They don't respond to the "fear" thing very well.  They need something different.

    I didn't mean to hijack your blog faulty_perfection. 

    Love you all,

    truthsayer     

     

  • truthsayer said on Aug 13, 2007....

    faulty, there was a nasty one in the Tulsa, OK area.  That doesn't mean that the person was a true believer though...there are predators everywhere...they have infiltrated every walk of life.  They did background checks on the guy.  He didn't have a record...but, apparently he had a past...he hadn't been caught, but he was most likely a child that was abused himself.  Abuse is the gift that keeps on giving.  Unresolved issues and murderous filthy thoughts can plague even those that profess to be Christians.  I am a true believer, but the church is full of unconfessed sin and all sorts of porn addictions and perversions because paganism, hedonism and secularism have influenced the church too.  You are perhaps naive (I don't know how old you are...and it doesn't matter), and that is probably to your credit.  Keep sharing your faith, just don't let these guys shake you up to where you get nervouse or off balance. 

    Take care faulty_perfection.  Do you mind if I keep looking in on you from time to time?

    Your new friend,

    truthsayer 

  • desertsienna2 said on Aug 13, 2007....

    1 Thessalonians 1 (King James Version)

    1 Thessalonians 1

     1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

     2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

     3Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

     4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

     5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

     6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

     7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

     8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

     9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

     10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

    1 Thessalonians 2

     1For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

     2But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

     3For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

     4But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

     5For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

     6Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

     7But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

     8So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.

     9For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

     10Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

     11As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,

     12That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

     13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

     14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

     15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

     16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

     17But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.

     18Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

     19For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

     20For ye are our glory and joy.

     

     

  • husbandhater said on Aug 14, 2007....

    God also said love thy neighbor and brother inspite of their faults. He said thy without sin cast the 1st stone. Since we ALL SIN and NO SIN IS SMALLER OR BIGGER THAN ANOTHER IT IS ALL EQUAL YOU REPENT FOR PASSING JUDGEMENT ON YOUR FELLOW PERSON's LIFESTYLE!

     

    Homosexualality is going to be around till he(GOD) ends this place, you don't have to agree or except the lifestyle but you  should respect any individual and their rights to live life as THEY see fit! After all it is not you but they who will be responsible for their choices in life as we are for our own. Lazorus asked God to warn his family so that they didn't go to HELL like he did and he said they have to arrive to the conclusion on their own he could not tamper with their FREE WILL!
  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 14, 2007....
    Truthsayer .... you're welcome to post anytime. *hug*
  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 14, 2007....

    It just seems weird to me that if someone who professes to be a Christian goes around blatantly sinning without any sort of remorse, it is automatically assumed that the entire religion itself is a sham and we're all just a bunch of overzealous freaks instead of holding the individuals responsible for what they do. Charles Manson can say "Yeah, I'm a Christian" while murdering without remose ... that does NOT make him any more of a christian than an unrepentant pedophile, theif, adulterer/adultress, homosexual ... whatever.

    Like I've said before - if you don't like what I post, you're more than welcome to find another blog that will cater to what you want to read. I'm sure there are plenty here to pick from.

  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 14, 2007....

    Well nobody likes what you post faulty.  Non-Christians understand clearly that you are out of your mind. 

    Christians don't like you pointing out that they should be leading better lives.

    The real question is if husbandhater truly believes ". Since we ALL SIN and NO SIN IS SMALLER OR BIGGER THAN ANOTHER IT IS ALL EQUAL YOU REPENT FOR PASSING JUDGEMENT ON YOUR FELLOW PERSON's LIFESTYLE! "

    Cus if so I wonder how she justifies judging murderers.  I mean shouldn't we let Charles Manson out?  The United States Justice system is based on the concept that people need to judge others.  More so than that, you don't need to be able to claim that you've never masturbated or taken an extra cookie after dinner to be able to call a murder a murder or a rapist a rapist.

  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 14, 2007....

    Well nobody likes what you post faulty.  Non-Christians understand clearly that you are out of your mind. 

    Christians don't like you pointing out that they should be leading better lives.

    The real question is if husbandhater truly believes ". Since we ALL SIN and NO SIN IS SMALLER OR BIGGER THAN ANOTHER IT IS ALL EQUAL YOU REPENT FOR PASSING JUDGEMENT ON YOUR FELLOW PERSON's LIFESTYLE! "

    Cus if so I wonder how she justifies judging murderers.  I mean shouldn't we let Charles Manson out?  The United States Justice system is based on the concept that people need to judge others.  More so than that, you don't need to be able to claim that you've never masturbated or taken an extra cookie after dinner to be able to call a murder a murder or a rapist a rapist.

  • anonymous said on Aug 14, 2007....

    So this is your idea of Christian love, huh? Nice try, fundie.

    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

    Texas pastor arrested for dragging girl at camp

    SAN ANTONIO (Reuters) - A Texas pastor and a colleague have been charged with tying a 15-year-old girl to a van and dragging her along the ground after she refused to continue an exercise run at a Christian "boot camp," police said on Sunday.

    Charles Flowers, senior pastor at the Faith Outreach Center, an evangelical church in the San Antonio suburb of Schertz, was arrested on Friday along with the camp counselor, Stephanie Bassitt, the Nueces County Sheriff's department said in a statement.

    The alleged incident took place in June and was reported to police by the mother of the girl, who was hospitalized for unspecified injuries.

    According to a copy of the arrest affidavit obtained by Reuters, the girl was participating in a running exercise at the military style "Love Demonstrated Ministries" camp near Corpus Christi when she tired and refused to continue.

    It says Bassitt pinned the girl down while Flowers tied a rope around her, tied the other end to the bumper of a van, and dragged her on her stomach "several times."

    The camp's Web site, where Flowers refers to himself as the "commandant," says it "strives to prepare young men and women to positively impact their world with the principles of Christ as their foundation" and is "designed to build character and instill discipline, integrity, unity, and morality back into their lives."

    The camp, which is operated in both Bexar and Nueces Counties, is aimed at teens with drug, alcohol, and other problems. Some teens are referred to the camp by courts.

    Neither Flowers nor the church responded to requests for comment.

    Organisers of an evangelical summer camp for children featured in the documentary "Jesus Camp" said late last year they were closing the camp because of negative reaction sparked by the film and vandalism at the camp site in North Dakota.

    At that camp, children spoke in tongues and were urged to become Christian warriors and campaign against abortion.

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 14, 2007....
    I leave for a few days and what the...?! The Jesus Camp is an extreme example of Christianity that is nowhere near the whole. They take solid teachings and force them upon impressionable children in unloving ways. SGenius takes his atheism to an extreme in the same way, and now we have a Christian/atheist snipefest on our hands. Most of what Faulty perfection said was quoted directly from the Bible. His/her standards are very high because the Bible calls for it. I'm 100% cool with striving for excellence. And as I explained with my past with sexuality, I was blessed for striving for a higher standard. If you have such a problem with Christian principles, SGenius, search for truth yourself. It's more productive than incendiary comments you make again and again. Trying harder and saying venomous things more often won't help. Put your energy to debunk Christianity, because nothing you've said has ruined or destroyed the faith of anyone here; in effect, the harder you push, the more Christians will push back with the Word of God. Anyone can say what they will about the Bible, but it is a constant standard that corrects and trains Christians because God intended it to be so. What other measuring stick does the rest of humanity have? You can always find extremes to any belief, but that does not discount the humble faith of millions that take God's Word seriously. They cannot be faulted if the Bible explains how believers and unbelievers alike are worse off in some way (i.e. homosexuality). The matter is settled with many Christians. If the Bible's words piss them off, discover why it says what it does, instead of inciting and basically hating on the people who follow it seriously.
  • ThePainfulTruthBFTW said on Aug 14, 2007....

    block…stay out of it. Your driving up when SG and I have already pulled off. I was using his words and his analogy. I never once said or implied that I live in the Stone Age or shunned technology, though I do think that a simple rock tied to a stick is pretty cool. Oh, and fire is a great substitute for television.

    Faulty Perfection…You keep it up man. Don’t listen to those that say, “Nobody likes what you post faulty. Non-Christians understand clearly that you are out of your mind.” Or “Christians don't like you pointing out that they should be leading better lives.” Remember that we are to hold each other accountable.

    TPT

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 14, 2007....

    Painfull, go to this blog and watch the video. I would be realy interested in your views on this. (Its not my blog by the way lol)   http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/77015/The-Existence-of-God

    SG

  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 14, 2007....
    TPT ... thank you for your unwavering support. I dont' know what has happened in their past to make them so bitter towards christians and religion in general. All I can do is pray that their wounds get healed.
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 14, 2007....

    FP-who are you to assume that just because we dont believe the way you do and can think to question all the missing pages of the Good Book- that we are wounded??

    SG and SR- I think I am starting to like you guys- and I dont even care that one of you are Aethiest- I think you mayu be smarter than the Know it all Christian giving Christians a bad name-

    FP- LOVE ONE ANOTHER!!! Worry about how you love you own life- and if you feel someone needs prayer - do it silently- this is not ministry- this is a fun little argument where you think your right, for shame , how naive of you !!

  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 14, 2007....
    Sarcasm doesn't go over well.  So I'm not 100% on if I was just flattered or insulted at random.  As I am wont to do I assume the best in people and say thank you Brand.
     
    Don't think I won't still call you labeledandbrandeddumb though.  I'm really only polite when I'm you know, in the mood.  :-P
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 14, 2007....
    just wait- I am still thinking of a name for you!!;)- And I wasn't being sarcastic- I have re-read these things with my husband ( a southern baptist preachers son)( thats right faulty p ) and feel that you have some valid points- no matter who you bat for!
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

    Did someone just accept our points as valid??? Catch me when I faint guys!

    SG

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....
    Yeah dude! Even the blind horse finds water :) I say that of myself often, too.
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 15, 2007....
    Now I feel this odd urge to re-read everything I said and figure out what the fuck i said that could possibly have had validity.
  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 15, 2007....
    Alright Lid- I am complimenting you guys- quit calling me names!!!!!damnit...(blind horse)
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....
    Oh no labeled, that blind horse comment was adding to the joke SGenius made. You're good to go!
  • ThePainfulTruthBFTW said on Aug 15, 2007....
    SG…Sorry but can’t watch the video. Well I can watch it but I have no sound. It is just one more thing that is wrong with this piece of crap.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

    Try this one if you are having any trouble with the other video posting.


    SG

     

  • labeledandBranded said on Aug 15, 2007....

    got it lid

     

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 16, 2007....

    I just noticed a comment from truthsayer lol

    He realy talks some rubbish, "Is it normal for an elephant to mount another male elephant?"

    No it dosnt happen all the time but it does happen, define normal please Truth.

    My argument stands and im not concerned if I blew any credibility with you because your argument hold no credibility. Nor does this post, it is simply a rant about how "God" dosnt like gays. Thats like saying that someone who lives in another town who you have never met dosnt like coffee... How the hell would you know. The bible is not a reliable source of proof of gods feelings because that would mean that god told people what he thought on all subjects and from my understanding, if you actualy ever met god then you would die.

    SG

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
    I know what you mean about the Bible not being reliable - but you don't mind using another sacred text - the Book of the Dead - to attempt to prove that Jesus was plagiarized from Horus. You'll whore out one sacred text to refute another? In other words, what makes the Book of the Dead reliable enough to refute another? Believe me man, Horus had many incarnations that were worshiped, not just the one that was Christlike. If you want religion that was added to and changed over time, look no further than the stuff you use to disprove Christianity.
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
    Also, too many have assumed that this post means "God hates gays," or "gays are screwed." Actually, gays aren't any worse off than anyone who lies, cheats, steals, lusts, etc. That would be all of us, in other words. Whether it's homosexuality or some other sin, the point is we all fall short and need a Savior to live life free from our own mistakes and regrets. We can only keep up an act, or wear a mask of "I'm ok" for so long. 
  • truthsayer said on Aug 16, 2007....

    Hi Lidstrom:

    Thank you for restating and clarifying what I said too.  StupidG just is stuck on his own interpretation of things, I guess.  I love what you said about The Book Of The Dead.

    It amazes me.  But I appreciated your discussion here.  I have been reading along, but not commenting lately.  Just busy and doing a lot of studying and thinking.

    Just wanted to chime in and say thanks to you, faulty, etc. 

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Aug 16, 2007....

    Dear Artemis223,

    I am sorry I never commented to your comment to me.  I didn't answer right away because I wanted to think about how to best answer you.  First of all, let me say that I was totally impressed/blown away by your candor in admitting that you are a fornicator.  I had such a hard time with so many of my own sins, and admitting that they were sins...because at the time, I was lying to myself about them being sins : )  It is soooooo easy to lie to ourselves. 

    In fact, because of my own strong delusions, it took me years and years of being a Shakespeare lover to understand the depth of his one line in one play, that nearly everyone recognizes and quotes, but has not yet fully understood: 

    To thine own self be true, for then thou canst not then be false to any man.

    For years I believed that this was my excuse to "do my own thing."  I thought that if I did my own thing, I was actually being "true".  But after all my years of living and studying, and examining myself and others (sorry...but it is an innate thing I have ; ) I now understand it in all of it's complexity.

    If I refuse to lie to myself, about anything, ever...I cannot then lie to others...because I will have rejected lying, altogether.  Too many people are accepting their own lies, and lies that they have been told, and so, they get comfortable, or used to lies in the world at large...thus enters "relativism" into our morality, and everywhere in life.  Gray areas.  Nothing is right or wrong anymore.

    Anyway lady, you are far ahead and above, by being able and willing to admit to sin.  Most simply refuse.

    So, my comment to your comment is that from my experience, they "feel like" they cannot control it...but they can.  Just like a glutton "feels like" they have to eat.  Like a drunk "feels like" they have to drink themselves to death.  But, the truth is, we can control much more than we want to think.  Lidstrom (another brave soul) has admitted that he was celibate by choice.  I have spent long periods of time celibate, by choice. 

    I have a healthy sexuality, as I am sure Lidstrom does (I was not always as pure as Lidstrom was either, I too was a fornicator) But we believed, or came to believe that we could control ourselves, partially, because of our faith and also, with the help of God.  We knew it was possible because the Bible says it is.  If one does not know the Bible, or accept its Wisdom, then one can continue writing their own book of rules; or live like so many do today, in the church of whatever.

    I have intimate knowledge of people with these lifestyles.  I know many that could live celibate, but they do not believe it is wrong, so they continue on their own way in their own understanding, rather than in God's Way and in His Understanding.

    I know others that are just plain sex addicts...and homosexuality is just one of the aspects of their sex addiction that they have to contend with.  Still, and this is most heart rending, or it should be to all Christians, many, as I said earlier, simply do not feel worthy.  So, on these matters, I still say that I have the utmost compassion. 

    There are many who were molested as a child and told by the predator that they asked for it, and subconsciously, they believed it and accepted it.  Or they were shamed into believing the lies of the enemy when later, they were told that they were probably "that way" anyway...and they just need to "accept it'.  At least that has been my experience. 

    Then, with one person that I know and love...all the years of counseling were thrown out the window as they gradually rewrote their past...and took those lies of the enemy into their own heart...and finally, believed that the molestation never even happened.  So, another pedophile got another convert.  This is what I hate.

    I watched it happen.  I still have poems written by that person, as they struggled with their demons....and finally, made the decision.  I have thought about posting it here.  But I decided not to.  If people won't believe this because of their own experiences with homosexuality, either in themselves, or in friends...then, taking that precious poem, written by a young person about to accept defeat and give in to the ultimate temptation...which they describe as a death...then, why would I parade it here for others to mock, as they do so freely on soulcast?

    So lady....thanks for your thoughtful response to a subject that we must all be careful with.  Bless you as you enter into your marriage.  May it always be the sacred union God intended it to be, and may you prosper on your journey to understand The Sacred, together.

    In Mercy and Truth,

    truthsayer   

     

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
    Beautifully written, truth. You bring class and understanding to every topic you post a comment on.

    When we stop believing that on some level, our lives can get better, or we can be healed, the Bible is a closed book, no matter your background or ethnicity. God is a God of hope, and if we stop hoping, belief in God becomes all but impossible. Further, if we blame ourselves for losing hope, we thus feel unworthy of God's help, even though He concerns Himself with the needs of every animal and creature - is He cares to lesser creatures, He will work for the good of humanity so much more. The people who don't see it are the ones who have believed lies, are stuck in shame, or too stuck on themselves to realize that God sets us free from every pitfall.

    Just like me and deliberate self-control concerning sexuality, God blesses us and strengthens us to overcome the things we feel slave to, or the things we just feel are a given ("well, people are going to have sex no matter what, might as well go along with it, even if it's two dudes"). Consistent morality from God is a loving gift to mankind, and it works much better than creating a belief system for ourselves.
  • truthsayer said on Aug 16, 2007....
    Thank you Lidstrom, and thanks for the prayers of late.  I really appreciate it.  I was going to say that you don't know how much I appreciate you...but maybe you do.  It is hard dealing with angry mockers all the time.  I much prefer an honest doubter to an angry mocker any day ; )  But things can take their toll on me.  I counted the cost long ago though...and I count it all good.  : )  Your friend, truth
  • anonymous said on Aug 16, 2007....
    StupidG, check out the word "Peniel" in one of your Bible reference search engines.  See what you find in regard to "seeing God" and living.
     
    As to what "normal" is...unless you want to stick with science as an agreed upon meaurement system:  statistics, percentages, mean, median, etc; and if you reject the Bible too...then I am not sure what you want to use for an agreed upon definition of "normal".  I merely used your own words and your own argument to try to communicate effectively with you. 
     
    Statistically speaking (as used in science and mathematics), I believe "normal" would be interpreted as being no more than one or two standard deviations above or beyond the mean.  Homosexuality would not be considered statistically "normal".  But it still exists in the animal kingdom, and in humans...although to call it "normal" for the group would be inaccurate I think.  It is a relatively small percentage of any population.
     
    But I am speaking in terms of some frame of reference other than my own.  You know?  In your own frame of reference, well...that is your own private rule book and we cannot logically discuss that, can we?
     
    Thanks SG.
     
    truth  
  • truthsayer said on Aug 16, 2007....
    I have no idea how that got posted as "anonymous".  I have never ever posted anonymously.  Oh well.  It was me, Truthsayer.  It must be time for me to blast outta here.  Much to do before I sleep.
     
    truth
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 16, 2007....

    lol truth,

    Whats not normal to you is normal to others, if my discussions on religion have taught me anything it is that fact.

    Simply put, as a believer, you have no right to judge or call them disgusting as long as they dont directly effect you and they dont.

    SG

     

  • truthsayer said on Aug 16, 2007....
    You may feel that "they" are disgusting SG, but I don't.  Those are your words buddy, not mine.  And I am pretty sure that you said you were a former believer on polarheart's blog...right?  Then you should know that judging is reserved for ourselves first.  How are you doing with that concept friend?  My compassion for "them" comes from knowing how much I had to be forgiven of.  I also have to do a "moral inventory" moment by moment...because that's what my God expects.
     
    Maybe telling yourself that there is nothing wrong with anything makes you feel like you don't have to make any judgements in life...but like SeanRenaud says, that's just a cop out.  That my friend, IS the church of whatever.  Or the Pastafarian church perhaps? ; )
     
    Have we determined if you can handle a Christian being snarky or not yet? : )  
     
    Later man, 
     
    truth 
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
    I'm not even going to qualify that by debunking it.
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
    ...because truthsayer will say it better than I could :)
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 16, 2007....

    Grow up you to, this is a blog about gays, if is passing judgement and im saying that you have no right to judge, you can have an opinion but thats as far as it goes. Dont tell people they will be shunned by god etc because you would need to know gods mind in order to make that statement.

    Read my post clearly as you would the mythology of your bible, I never used the word disgusting to describe my feeling towards that lifestyle.

    You make me annoyed truth because you are trying to say that they are doing something that requires gods forgivness. You have never met god and do not know his mind so dont be so arrogant as to assume that you do.

    If what homosexuals do makes them happy and they do not harm anyone by doing it then i do not have a problem with it. It is up to them. Its not my lyfstyle choice but it is theirs and you and any other preacher of faith cant tell them that god is not happy about it.

    SG

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
    All venom aside, the Bible is available to us BECAUSE we'd know the heart of God, SG. That's what it's there for. And it does count homosexuality as a sin. People can do what they want, but what they do isn't always what God intends for them. They have to deal with that someday.
    And to be fair here, the Bible has been around longer than any textbook, novel, or literary work you have used to solidify your own beliefs. That is NOT to say your knowledge is crap...it's just to say it holds more importance than you think it does. You can argue us blue in the face, but if you knew God once, you can always go back. If you didn't, there's a wealth of joy and love you can let into your life that is not flighty, wishy washy, or free of reason. God loves us deliberately, just as we love you deliberately, SG. It's not a fun thing to have a discussion with you each day and find my beliefs trashed by the person you're talking to. Overall though, I do enjoy our interactions in some ways. But if I don't persist, you might not hear of a better alternative to living life otherwise. And that's not very loving of me to do. So I continue, man.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 17, 2007....

    The bible isnt the word of god, sorry to have to break this to you my freind.

    The bible is the word of man. Plain and simple.

    I trash your belief because you write about it. If you dont want to hear my feelings on it then dont write in a blog that allows reply. I enjoy our conversations but I have already told you that the bible has been around for so long because its teachings and core was spread by the sword. If however you consider all the different versions of it and then consider all the diferent variations of the faith then its not that reliable otherwise everyong would be of one denomination.

    SG

  • truthsayer said on Aug 17, 2007....

    Hey Lidstrom, what do you think?  Faulty?  And everyone that posted thoughtfully and not spitefully...I think SGenie has pretty much worn this "conversation" out!  It is his way or the High Way.  I choose the High Way ; ) 

    Thanks Faulty_Perfection.  I read skymir's comment above.  It's a good way to leave things, if you ask me.

    Carry on people...I am outta here : )

    Truth 

     

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 18, 2007....

    Typical

    You say I trash your beleifs and I simply agree with you because you feel that way even when I make a resonable comment. People normaly dont like their feelings challenged but when it comes to religion people seem to feel that it is somehow a protected subject and people of faith should not be questioned.

    Well you should be challenged, you should be asked to explain when you make statements and you should accept the fact that not everyone belives the same as you do. 

  • truthsayer said on Aug 19, 2007....

    No kidding StupidG?  Here I thought you and me were really connecting...really feeling the love, as Sean calls it ; )

    Don't worry about it fella.  Believe me when I say that you challenge the faith of every single Christian you encounter.  We got that.  : )  So, you are an evangelist then? 

    Take care, no hard feelings!  None here.  lol. 

    Later friends,

    Truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Aug 19, 2007....

    Hey Faulty_Perfection: 

    Feel free to wrap it up for us, like Muckpar did in his/her blog.  It is your blog. : )

    Truth

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
    I'd say SG is definitely an evangelist of atheism. I just think he's preaching the wrong gospel. And that ain't an insult if it's the truth.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 20, 2007....

    Agrred to an extent, I dont like religion pushed on to me so I push back. The harder you push the harder I push back. The difference is your argument has no factual basis so I win everytime.

    SG

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
    We can't show you the ocean if you stay in the sandbox, my friend. Creation actually explains the world's origins better than evolution does. Someone who lives for Christ stands on a firmer foundation than one who is prideful about the theories of Charles Darwin and co.
  • StupidGenius said on Aug 20, 2007....

    lol ill open the door for you lidstrom all you need to do is walk out of your padded cell and join the real world my freind.

    Creationism only explains everything to people who are too lazy minded to work it out for them selves. Creation is simply a lazy answer to everything.

    It explains it better for you because you are closed minded are afraid to research anything that might make you realise that you religion is purely mythology.

    SG

  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 20, 2007....

    Creation actually explains the world's origins better than evolution does.

    How can something that explains nothing explain something better?  I saw an episode of Pokemon where they explained that Acheos the original Pokemon created Space and Time and created two lesser pokemon, Dialga and Palkia to watch over them.  Evolution doesn't explain where space or time came from so pokemon>evolution.

     

  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
    You gotta read your Bible more, Renaud. I realize I opened a can of worms with that comment, but believing in a biblical flood that separated the continents and resulted in a short ice age immediately afterward accounts for:

    -Pangaea, and today's current continents
    -Sedimentary rock filled with fossilized remains that covers much of today's continents
    -The precipitation of the Flood coming from fountains in deep water
    -An Ice Age that froze much of North America and northern Europe/Asia, providing land bridges for the people and animals scattered at the Tower of Babel
    -Floating masses of trees and debris that allowed animals to relocate after the Flood, even to remote islands, i.e. Australia
    -It  explains  exactly how the Earth and heavens were created, including the sun, moon, stars, and planets.
    -It tells us how we appeared, why we're here, where we came from, and how to live

    In effect, Creation explains more than even Pokemon, though I always loved Jigglypuff.
  • faulty_perfection said on Aug 20, 2007....
    I think it's time to put this debate to an end now. Can we agree to disagree?
  • SeanRenaud said on Aug 21, 2007....

    Only if you stick to just one pokemon movie, if you use all 10 movies, or hell Lord of the rings.  I could tear that down but we've gotten far enough off subject that I'm willing to call this one at Faulty's request.

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 21, 2007....
    yup shut this thing down dude
  • ThePainfulTruthBFTW said on Aug 21, 2007....

    Yea I agree with stupid. Give him a chance to run after lid’s last comment. He will just dodge it like he did the debate on his fraudulent fossil record anyway.

    TPT

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 21, 2007....

    oooooh He didnt just go there did he????

    Jerry... Jerry... Jerrry

    Ok lets have a full and frank debate about all issues relating to Evolution Vs Creationism. I will set up the blog or you can i dont mind and lets have a real debate on anything you want.

    Take the gloves of sean we are going to war pal.

    SG

  • StupidGenius said on Aug 21, 2007....

    Ok painfull truth

    http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/84558/CREATIONISM-VS-EVOLUTION

    lets discuss any part of this you wish, I never dodge issues. No post will be deleted. I have started the post of with a statement, lets see if you wish to discuss this like men or you want to avoid it like normal.

    SG

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