The age of chivalry may be dead but I m going out with at least a modicum of manners remaining like it or not. More than enough has been said about the equality of the sexes. But I want to rant a bit about how some traditions have been stifled with the advent of womens rights. Dont get me wrong. Of course women should be paid on a par with men for equal work. Absolutely women should not pay premium prices for the same services a man receives for less. A recent atricle about the cost of having a womans suit cleaned compared to the cost of a mans suit revealed that women pay more. Not fair, I contend, especially considering that plenty of women are earning less than men for doing the same job.
Those arent the things this is about. I m talking about what was once considered mannerly and just proper etiquette. I was taught to hold a door open for a lady. It was proper to walk between the lady and the street traffic. In my day it was expected that a gentleman would give his seat on a bus or train to a lady and even more so if she were pregnant. The same applied to younger people offering seniors thier seat. It was only curteous to assist a lady with packages or a lady who was struggling with a heavy load. One would never watch as a lady changed a tire or standby while whe was having difficulty of any kind. Holding a chair for a lady to be seated at teh table was correct behavior. Offering ones own coat or sweater to a lady on a chilly night was just what was done.
WTF HAPPENED?
When entering a department store the other day I held the door open for a nicely dressed women in her thirties. She flashed me a glare and went 'humph' with a flip of her head. I had reserved a seat in a smoking car on a passenger train awhile ago. Before departure the smoking car was quickly filled. A woman (and I wont call her lady) demanded a seat while making an awful fuss with conductor. I got up and offered her mine even though I d paid a premium for it. She screamed at me: "How the fuck much do I have to pay you for that!?" A while back I saw an elderly lady struggling with some packages. I offered to assist her. She didnt even glance at me. She just behaved as if I were some kind of perv. (Yes I do understand that might have some merit considering the things that happen now days.) I went with a group of friends for supper recently. They had invited a lady friend that I had nt met. When she arrived I stood up as I was introduced to her and I held her chair for her. She looked at me as if I were the last surviving dodo.
Help me here ladies. What is your reaction when a man is 'gentlemanly'? Men do you behave in these manners or do you just avoid what once was considered proper? Tell me what is expected, what is presumptious, what is the norm. Please tell me what happened. Where did manners go?
botoni posted on Aug 03, 2007
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Comments
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Lucytorial said on Aug 03, 2007....
Botoni I'm with you, to be courteous to everyone is an ideal I hold value in.
Most of my male friends are older than me, however there is only one that is courteous. He always offers his seat, he always asks if I would like this or that, he is simply well mannered.
Women are funny creatures, when someone offers me a seat I thank them profusely for it. When I offer my seat up I like to be thanked graciously, doors held open yes please, help me with a heavy load that would be nice.
I think we truly just don't care that much anymore, like the women who asked 'How much she had to pay" She obviously doesn't care about how she imprints on the world as she must be far too important?? *shakes head* men are very similar, a lot of men these days don't offer the most basic of manners towards women or other men.
I say manners schools for everyone, I went to a school of etiquette and I'm proud and glad that I did. Sure I can behave badly in certain company but not out, not around elders and definitely not with pregnant women, older ladies, older gentlemen and people who may require assistance.
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botoni said on Aug 03, 2007....
Lucytorial....thank you for a lovely answer. I did get my just desserts a few days ago. I had boarded our local LRT and a man in his twenties insisted on giving me his seat. I was profusely gratefull. -
rupert7 said on Aug 03, 2007....
The general decline in manners is truly tragic but I think it mirrors the overall decline in moral standards. I know what you are saying. It makes me hesitate to offer a helping hand to a woman for fear of her reaction! I don't use public transport a lot but all too often you see school kids swarm on a bus and take all the seats,leaving the slower moving,perhaps elderly to stand. Rarely do they offer a seat to the old woman or man,or pregnant woman,or the one with 3 little ones. I must say one time a teenage girl stood and offered ME her seat! ME! I was horrified,mortified even!! I politely suggested she offer it to an old lady further back in the bus,which she did. It was nice to see some manners for a change, it really was. -
the_infernal_optimist said on Aug 04, 2007....
Having been raised as much by my maternal grandparents as by my parents (or so it seemed to me as a child), I learned the same manners they use with each other and their peers. I'd like to think I would have been courteous anyway, but they had a lot to do with my "Yes, sir" behavior. He still calls her "madam," opens her car door for her, pulls her chair out, etc.
(Is it just me, or is it sad that some people don't even realize now that "ma'am" is a shortened form of "madam," sir's equally polite counterpart?)
While I don't believe that women inherently deserve these niceties because of their gender - manners work both ways! - it is always wonderful to see courtesy in action. When I was at the mall, heavily pregnant and with a toddler in tow, DH stepped away to browse a nearby electronics store. I waddled over to the line at the pretzel shop, and to my amazement, the several people in front of me all shuffled me forward so I didn't have to wait on my feet with little one in my arms. :)
The UPS guy would never let me take a box whilst I was preggo, either - he always insisted on setting it down inside the door for me. No complaints! I wish people were more polite to each other even without an excuse like age or pregnancy.
Perhaps it's the area of the country I'm in, but manners do seem to be a little more in fashion here than elsewhere I've visited. I think we might be more old-fashioned overall though - or maybe it's because I tend to gravitate toward people significantly older than me.
DH and I were commenting the other day that even service like fast food is getting more and more rude. It used to go, "Welcome, may I take your order please?"
That day, we got "Take your order" growled at us - I almost made him drive away. What the hell does it hurt to take time to be polite? We always thank people who serve us, whether it's Burger King or a fancy restaurant. Can't they be polite back?
I have also gotten some strange looks when I hold the door for someone (and I'm a non-threatening-looking woman, at least I think so!). While courtesy shouldn't be taken for granted, it's sad to me that some people are so under-used to it that it shocks them when someone does something polite for them. (Incidentally, I've never had an elderly person give me one of those looks, though I have had a few pats on the shoulder.)
~Infernal
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silverwhisper said on Aug 04, 2007....
IMX, some people simply lack the understanding of how to be gracious, botoni, and it's becoming increasingly an endangered species, if you ask me.
i've never actually encountered someone who would be so graceless as to glare at having a door held for him or her, and i utterly cannot fathom the behavior of that woman on the train.
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hotaka said on Aug 04, 2007....
Botoni, as a foreigner here in a country where the elderly still appreciate manners and the younger generation (30s to 40s) still acknowledge manners and the youth of today can at times still surprise me by showing manners now and again, I take great pleasure in being polite and helpful. The elderly thank me profusely. The middle-aged says thanks about 99% of the time. And the youth seem to realize that there are people in the world other than themselves. A kind act and a smile makes me glad to live here. No one gets angry or offended. Even teenagers will turn and say thanks for an open door. I do what I can to help create a pleasant atmosphere, make a bright spot in people's days and create a good impression about white foreigners, especially those from Canada!
Mind you, even in Canada I don't recall having anyone get upset with me for holding a door open or offering a seat. Once a woman and her husband walking in front of me let the door swing back in my face. When they saw what happened they apologized over and over until they reached their car in the parking lot. I was glad for just the one apology and said it was alright but they seemed to feel really bad for not having noticed I was behind them. Usually the world around me is not so ugly. It's only in traffic that I find people's manners go out the window.
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botoni said on Aug 04, 2007....
Rupert I had the same reaction when offered a seat the other day on public transit. I keep getting these nudges that remind me I m no longer 21!
TIO perhaps some of the reason I notice the lack of manners has to do with having a very British father to whom manners were tremendously important.
Silver....I ve no idea why I encounter people who seem stunned at the use of mannerly behavior. It may be the same magnetic thing that attracts weird people to me.
Hotaka.....dont even get me started on traffic! LOL....manners in traffic? Unheard of! A question for you. When you return to 'our home and native land' are there changes evident to you in the what is now acceptable behavior? -
boyzmom said on Aug 04, 2007....
My sons are learning manners and it is really sweet but I see their peers are not learning the same. The only time I don't like someone holding the door for me is when my kids run off before me and the person lets the kids in or out without me! I wish they would have let the door close and slow the kids down! I took the bus some when the boys were really little and several times when there were not enough seats, I was offered a seat. It really does make a difference in my day when someone is so kind. I say don't give up on using good manners just because some people are snooty about it. -
destinydiva said on Aug 04, 2007....
botoni I think your a true gentleman.... and true gentlemen are rare species sadly!!
The only man who always insisted on walking between the traffic and myself was my grandad.
I'm always impressed by a true gentlemen.... but I know a lot of woman are intimidated by it.... boys just aren't brought up around that anymore....I think its a shame.... I hope my son grows up to be a gentlemen....
Destiny xx
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skald said on Aug 04, 2007....
I do appreciate manners and I dislike it when people are rude. I am sorry to say that manners seem to have declined.
But one thing I think the men here would not let a woman change her tires. There are always men to help in that situation.
Go on and keep it up being polite. I will try the same too.
I can't understand the women you mentioned. I think they are arrogant. -
queenparanoia said on Aug 04, 2007....
tito boti. ohmygod what the hell is wrong with those women??? honestly if you do this things for me titoboti i will give you my sweetest smile. i appreciate it much if a man held a door for me. i guess te word that this women need to learn is "appreciative" -
evil_twin said on Aug 04, 2007....
Wow, you've sure come across some rude people! My parents raised me to respect women and I always open doors and pull out chairs, etc. And I've never had anyone object to my chivalry. When I hold open doors for people, I usually get a thank you and a smile. And given the crazy, rude town where I live, I guess it's surprising!
It is sad that a lot of people are not being taught manners like that. My kids will be taught that though someday! I'll make sure of it!
-evil_twin LA
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kruuyai said on Aug 04, 2007....
I agree with a lot of what infernal said. I have, on occasion, however, become annoyed at niceties that seemed out of place to me. For example, someone stopping to hold a door open for me when I'm at least 10 or 20 paces behind them, and wanting to be cocooned in my own little world, because it makes me feel like i have to hurry to oblige them, when I really don't need the door opened for me anyway, and I'd rather just keep going at my own pace... or when the guy opening the door has his hands full and it would make more sense for me to open the door for him, but he insists on doing it just because of the gender difference. I just like things to make sense, and if someone offers me help when I need it, I appreciate it, and I like to be able to offer help when I see that someone else needs it.. regardless of gender or age.
That being said, it seems to me that men in America, at least, have overreacted to the women's movement (maybe because of experiences like you described, botoni)... to the point that they don't even offer us the courtesies that we women offer each other. My biggest pet peeve is being dropped off after a date and having the guy just drive off without waiting to make sure I get in the house okay. My female friends would never do that. They always waited to make sure I got in, without being attacked, or just to make sure I had my key. And I always did the same for them. Also, these days, I find that, in America, if my car breaks down, I'm much more likely to get help from a woman than a man... I guess there are some other reasons for that than just lack of manners... the US is a violent society, and there's not a lot of trust for strange men.... what a complicated world!
But I have to say that, in general, I find European (and Asian, and Mexican) men to be much more chivalrous than American men. Case in point... I went out to the beer garden with a bunch of my classmates from the school in Prague a few weeks ago. Most of them were Americans, but one of the guys was English. I left earlier than most, but it was after the regular trams stopped running, and I didn't know anything about the night tram schedule. And, I got lost in the park that the beer garden was in, and had to come back to the group. It was the English guy who offered to walk me to the tram stop (and who, on subsequent outings, accompanied all the women who left early). The American guys just sat there with their beers and wished me luck (including Jolly, and this was back while our flirtation was still fresh).
I'm probably one of the most independent women you're likely to come across, but I do appreciate a bit of courtesy and consideration,.... not because of my gender, but because I'm a human being.
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frontanack said on Aug 04, 2007....
(big sigh) . . . I am really beginning to wonder about the city I live in. I have not seen courtesy like any of this in a long long time. (shakes head). .. I cannot even stand to go into the Walmart:: it is so filled with sour faced and angry people. The last time there ( I used to always just go on in, with smile on face.. sort of like free hugs.. for everyone. . .) but the last time there: ? It was so bad. . . it just felt weird:so much so that I decided to stay away from there. And. . . most places are not a whole lot better anyway. . . I think the women's movement was supposed to be about respect: and chivalry is a way of showing respect. . so, who ever decided that that was illegitimate did not do the women's cause any favors. -
mirrorimage said on Aug 04, 2007....
I would like for someone to open a door for me, pull out a chair for me or any of the other things you mentioned! It just rarely happens.... -
hotaka said on Aug 04, 2007....
Hey, bot. It's hard to say if there are changes evident. I just realize I am in a different society and culture. Weird people seem weirder exactly because it is home. Weird people in another land is just interesting. I must say though, my personal experience in most countries I have visited has been that most people are kind, friendly and polite. Chinese are known for their rudeness to strangers and in China you'd get that feeling. The funny thing is that once the other person acknowledges your presence and that you are indeed human and not a lamp post or potted plant Chinese people can be quite friendly and kind. -
MissMimi said on Aug 04, 2007....
Those women who gave you attitude... How hard is it to smile and say thank you? Jeez. I am always appreciative when someone offers to help me. Even if I'm capable of doing it myself, I still smile and say thank you for asking. They gave me the gift of kindness; the least I can do is return the gift of a smile and a thank you.Don't get discouraged, Botty. There are lots of us out there who love it when people are courteous. -
botoni said on Aug 04, 2007....
boyzmom......there are times when 'manners' are just insane....eg making someone rush to get the door....lol....I m sure you boys will do well in the manner dept.
Destiny....thanks....I hope he does too.
Skald....I guess there are arrogant people. Maybe I just attract them.
Kruu....I m much in agreement with you. I have to admit that there is an element of ingrained chauvinism involved in some things and that there can be borderline differences. Its like this.....if I m reaching a door I will either hold it open for the person (m or f) behind me or I will be sure it stays open for them if they are within a step or two. I think there are occasions when the feminine/masculine roles are appropriate. Perhaps in a pub I would be less inclined to seat a woman than I would be at a banquet. I think we re on the same wave length. I d agee with you that American/Canadian people in general are less courteous with each other.
Frontenack....You managed to say what I was being inept about. There seems to have been an errosion to the intent of the womens movement.
Mirror.....come dine with me!
Hotaka....I frequent an asian supermarket (largely Chinese clientel). I have found, in the check out line, if I express interst in a product the person adjacent to me is purchasing and ask about its use or mention that I like it I will often suddenly have a new best friend. I ve even been invited to come for meals so I can be shown how the particular item is prepared. I think it has to do with expressing genuine interest...or maybe that I seem to be a harmless old man...........hehehe
MissMimi.....a smile and a thank you blesses my whole day. From you, a smile and a thank you makes my whole week! -
anonymous said on Aug 30, 2007....
I have to agree with these articles. Manners, or a man who has them, is a girl's best friend. I was in Paris recently and saw a man elbow a pregnant lady aside just so he could get her seat on the metro. I have confidence in human nature that the majority of people in the world would not be so rude and incensitive. There is an add I really like, even though I can't remember what it is selling. It's the one where the lady stops a man from crossing the road in front of a car. Someone has seen this and it moves him to offer help to another person and these random acts of kindness are repeated by observers one at a time, over and over. Surely this can happen in real life. When we care about others, we are compelled to treat them with respect and courtesy, isn't that the basis of good manners? I have enjoyed another blogg about manners: Lord Manners.com. Check it out.
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