• curmudgeon said on Jul 10, 2007....

  A well reasoned post!
   
  "A Brief History of Time" was also written by a man.
   
  Perhaps that book ought to be afforded the same credibility - or lack thereof -atheists afford the Bible.

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 11, 2007....

  What a great post!
  
  From what I was taught, the message in the Bible leads up to Jesus with prophecy in the Old Testament, explains His life and teachings, and why He chose to die to save the world from sin, and explains what God's people are called to do in the Last Days before Jesus' return.
  
  Some people think the Old Testament law laid forth is silly and outdated, however all those guidelines were necessary to establish civilization in the world. It was God's way to regulating sanitation, legal matters, moral conduct, and the like. It sounds archaic today, but if it is the foundation of our nation's legal system, we'd better be giving it a heck of a look, y'all!
  
  I was also taught that nature IS proof of God. We did NOT put this Earth around us, or create trees, rivers, jungles, plains, oceans. It's kind of foolish to think we're the dominant being of all existence, yet we can only accomplish great things from the Earth that was already here in the first place. I think that if people consider this line of thought long enough, we'd find further proof of God's existence, because it takes an extremely powerful, knowledgeable being to create and Earth that not only allows life, but sustains it. It also produces apples for great pie :)
  

• stopmediabias said on Jul 11, 2007....

  Lidstrom82- Incredible, you summed it up better than I could. 

  Your ending quote..."I think that if people consider this line of thought long enough, we'd find further proof of God's existence, because it takes an extremely powerful, knowledgeable being to create and Earth that not only allows life, but sustains it. It also produces apples for great pie... "

  Excellent,

  V-

• kelly said on Jul 12, 2007....

  "Unless God floats down here on a silver cloud we will never (while alive) know 100% if he exists."
  
  
  That is precisely why we should all just believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and how he guides our every action with his noodly appendage.  After all, you can't disprove his existence.

• stopmediabias said on Jul 12, 2007....

  Come on Kelly out with it, you can say brilliant things but you really sound like you are afraid to actually get into the debate-are you pro or con or just a little of both?
   
  "noodly appendage" ???  I'll bet Freud would have a lot to say about that.

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 12, 2007....

  The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the hokiest "argument" against the existence of God I think I've ever heard. Anyone can snipe a few sarcastic comments, but stopmediabias is right - what's your real, sarcasm-free view on the matter, kelly?

• kelly said on Jul 14, 2007....

  I'm not arguing against god here.  I'm asking you to prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, since that is the argument you are putting forth for the existence of your god.
  
  
  There is no debate.  People who believe in god would like other people to believe there is a debate, but you simply cannot have a debate where burden of proof is thrown out the window.

• stopmediabias said on Jul 14, 2007....

  Like I said: "...a strong amount of circumstantial evidence can sway an audience one way or another."
   
  My goal in this whole post is not to try to throw God in non-believer's faces, it's to show that, just like the theories taught in schools in regards to evolution, big bang, etc...there is credibile evidence of "design."
   
   I can't prove God exists, and can't prove he does not exist just like I can't prove that the monkies on Animal Planet will some day land on the moon or build a skyscraper.  BUT, we can come close enough to proof to make a person stop and think, hmmm, that's interesting.
   
  V-

• StupidGenius said on Jul 14, 2007....

  Just in case you were all wondering.... Im An Aitheist
   
  I do not belive in god, I do not believe in the bible. We would have morality, a sense of right and wrong, Good or bad etc without it. The bible dosnt make me think hmmm thats interesting. It contains little evidence of anything and by the way...
   
  I have Read it thankyou very much.
   
  I also dont believe that religion is a protected subject that people should be carefull of talking about any more than you shouldnt criticise what someones cloths look like or the hairstyle they chose to have. It is a subject like any and is open to criticism just like any other subject. It is not supported by an ounce of fact. I would be happy to discuss the theory of evolution etc with anyone who is interested and or reply to private messages on the subject.
   
  I for one dismiss it in all its forms. It segregates and provides a false sense of security for followers.
   
  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 14, 2007....

  Well guys, you've made your choice and you're happy with it. I think kelly's point is interesting, because burden of proof from my end is that the Bible is already a closed book in that viewpoint. If there is no true argument, it's because God has been removed from the equation, and I hope that's not a foolish thing for the sake of everyone who regards the Bible as a closed book.

• kelly said on Jul 15, 2007....

  My goal in this whole post is not to try to throw God in non-believer's faces, it's to show that, just like the theories taught in schools in regards to evolution, big bang, etc...there is credibile evidence of "design."
  
  
  And this is exactly what I rail against.  Would you please point me in the direction of this credible evidence of design?  ID is not a theory.  It's an opinion.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 15, 2007....

  There is no "evidence" of design. People simply place "God" as the answer to things they do not understand. That unfortunatly is not a valid reason to believe.
   
  SG

• alipatemiller said on Jul 15, 2007....

  I have been putting out a regular series "And This Just In …"

   

  It is satire from the Fijian scene. I just made my latest post:

   

  “And This Just in ... - Jesus and Allah Sue Vayeshnoi”.

   

  Vayeshnoi is a politician who suggested the December 5th military coup in Fiji was 'God-sent'.

   

  Been getting mixed - mainly good - comments for my series. But this latest one touched a nerve in some. I was lambasted by quite many. Things like 'senseless, 'garbage', 'do not take the lord's name in vain' etc.

   

  I was trying to make a point in a comic/satirical way - what satire is supposed to do. My point being if Jesus and Allah and other deities were looking down they too would have been upset for people justifying illegal acts using their names. Four coups in Fiji in 20 years and all justified in God's name.

   

  Many people here do not understand the concept of satire. Some are too maudlin.

   

  Please read and comment - tell me if I crossed the line, if it was blasphemous, if I should be lynched

• StupidGenius said on Jul 15, 2007....

  People tend not to find the criticism or questioning of their faith as "Funny". Unfortunatly religion comes with an "delusion included attachment" that contains brainwashing material. It makes people feel that religion is a protected subject that cant be questioned, well guess what... it can be questioned and should be for the sake of humanity as a whole.
   
  SG 

• stopmediabias said on Jul 15, 2007....

  Alipatemiller-if your going to be stupid you could at least be funny, if you can't, then be crazy some where else.

  Stupidgenius-*yawn* you bore me.  It's my opinion God exists and I've stated a few examples that lead me in that direction.  If you have "proof" that mankind arose up out of single-cells then state it.  The concept of an intelligent being starting the process of this well-oiled machine we call a universe, is not any crazier than evolution if you cut the God is an old man staring down on us sinners stereotype.  I've benefited greatly from my study of science and God, it is not crazy to want to share that with other people.  There are many deeply personal subjects that people get offended over and if they don't wear it on their sleave we should not purposely offend someone.

  Kelly- no, you point me as to the credible evidence of evolution, big bang, etc. or refute the things I've said.  Your pithy comments are funny but don't hold much weight in the actual debate. 

  Atheists!  Where did our soul come from? I'm curious why we as humans feel the need to either build something or whorship something greater than us.  Boredum would kill us if we could not express ourselves (this seperates us from animals.)  Did our soul come from evolution?

  V-

   

   

• stopmediabias said on Jul 16, 2007....

  Your preachin to the choir here but it probably won't convince any of the people above.  The guy makes some good points though.

  V-

• StupidGenius said on Jul 16, 2007....

  The proof you are looking for is in natural selection. If you would like to better understand these subjects then I can help you.
   
  It is not more likely that god exists.
   
  The likely hood that evolution and natural selection are correct are back up back thousands of tests and re-tests. If god exists he is the most complex, inteligent being that ever existed and you are saying that he just appeared one day and created the earth. The probabilitie that a unimaginably complex being just appeared and created the earth is billions of times more improbable than scientific fact relating to Natural selection and evolution. If you are easily offended by the questioning of a faith then dont reply or post in blogs that are called "The existance of God".
   
  You find me boring because you in a delusional state refusing to accept that science = Fact and Religion = Fiction. Give me one clear reason or passage in the bible or anywhere else for that matter that proves the existance of god and you may very well find me sitting in church praying for forgiveness next sunday.
   
  SG 

• stopmediabias said on Jul 16, 2007....

  Natural selection?  Sorry I don't buy it. 

  Here's the thing, if we debate: Global warming, the death penalty, gun control, Iraq, there is a high probability one of us will be proven right or wrong by time, societal trends and statistics.  With the God debate there is never a resolution.  I've spent years arguing every aspect of evolution, God, you name it and there is never a winner, there is never a: "see!  I told you so!" 

  "The likely hood that evolution and natural selection are correct are back up back thousands of tests and re-tests. If god exists he is the most complex, inteligent being that ever existed and you are saying that he just appeared one day and created the earth."

  Yes and there still that teensy weensy problem of the fossil record where there are no links between animals and humans.   God always was.  Break everything in the entire world down then ask yourself what was before that.  Atheists always say we God people point to God when we don't understand something.  True but not true with everyone.  Atheists do the same thing with science, don't understand something, attach a theory to it then call it fact.

  There is nothing you can say that will offend me.  In my experience atheists are boring because the majority I've met dwell on the same subject and reject even the mear possibility of something else. 

  "You find me boring because you in a delusional state refusing to accept that science = Fact and Religion = Fiction. Give me one clear reason or passage in the bible or anywhere else for that matter that proves the existance of god and you may very well find me sitting in church praying for forgiveness next sunday."
   
  This again, why does every Atheist step onto this anti-religious high horse.  Religion is a vehicle thats it.  If you want to have an Atheist religious debate sorry I can't help you.  There are lot of people in the Scientific community who believe in God.  If you say humans evolved from single celled organisms then I can offer an alternative theory that says single celled organisms cannot evolve into a strand of DNA and not be branded a Bible thumper. 
   
  There is not a single verse in the Bible that proves the existence of God.  There are verses, mentioned in above post, that point to the fact that the person who wrote them was inspired by something with an intelligence far greater than ours.  People don't go to church to follow a religion like sheep, they go because it makes them feel good.  Statistically people who believe in God are happier, they believe that there is something far bigger than themselves, and they know they are never alone. 
   
  V-

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 16, 2007....

  I think it's sad that when churchgoing people are happy for it, people assume it's too good to be true, and those poor people are either deceiving themselves or they're living in a fantasy world.
  
  SGenius, playing by the rules you adhere to, you can never prove God's existence. You want to SEE God. But you can't. The Bible explains why, namely that no one can look fully upon Him and live. Yes, God is that complex and powerful, esp. if He created everything.
  
  Also, an ever-present cloud contained the presence of the Lord, and followed His people in the desert. Every day manna from Heaven fed the people, every day the Lord protected their encampment, but visible signs weren't enough for them.
  
  That's why God does not just appear at our beck and call; seeing Him wouldn't remove all belief, and the Bible explains such instances. Moses heard the voice from the burning bush, and was the closest to seeing God that anyone had. Was he a perfect dude after that? No way! He himself never got into the Promised Land due to unfaithfulness on his part.
  
  Same with us. If God showed up once in our lives, we might not question His existence (however, if He showed up once, we could dismiss it as a figment of our imagination), but we'd question His power.
  
  Well why can't He be more accessible. Because He is perfect, and we screw up all the time...perfection can't mix with imperfection well. It's like putting dirt in a bucket of water. The water is no longer pure, and the dirt is no longer dry, usable soil. If the human race is wondering why God is not present, they need to consider that the human race's actions over history could be the reason why. Unbelief has consequences.
  
  Isn't it enough to see nature around us, admit we didn't create something so complex, and attribute that to a higher power? We can only do good or bad things with what we're already given - from our world around us to our own bodies. To assume the best of humanity came from humanity is giving us too much credit. Watch the six o clock news and see that when it's up to us, we make selfish decisions. If we're all descended from single cell organisms that developed over time, it says nothing of our purpose. We can make our own purpose? Perhaps, but just like this world that we didn't create, we can only copy what we've already been given.
  
  Mankind has created gods, but I believe that is a copy and an extension of one true God. If Christianity is true, it is the oldest religion (including the days of the Jews before Christ) by virtue of having the Creation account and the fall of man. As the oldest, original faith, it can be copied by others who seek their own power, or who try to mix and match what they believe.
  
  Making up beliefs did not bode very well for criminal L. Ron Hubbard, or Joseph Smith. It does not offer much hope to an Islamic religion whose holy texts do not debunk the current state of unrest, and it does little more than serve as a good luck charm for the Japanese who had buddhist priests bless their home and have christian-style american weddings, while saying prayers to shinto gods like amaterasu.
  
  SGenius, we can debate till the cows come home. This is all, and has all been, worldly wisdom we've been throwing back and forth, you to make a point, and for me to relate to you. The Bible is very clear that God makes himself known to those who seek Him. In order to know Him, you have to seek Him. That means suspending the disbelief fueled by every atheistic or scientific principle you hold true. Besides, if it's a bunch of hooey, what do you have to lose?
  
  Seeking God does not mean questioning Christians about their beliefs, and it does not mean reading the Bible to find errors in it. It means asking God to make Himself real to you, then waiting. If that's not something you're willing to do, SGenius, then you will never get the proof of God. Simple as that. If you reject that option, then you've made your bed and are laying in it.
  
  You've got nothing to lose if your current position is the truth to you. Try this experiment, if you will: spend 5 minutes talking to God every day about your own life, whatever's on your mind. Then read a chapter of the Bible. Do that for about 3, 4, 5 weeks. Then see what happens. Treat it as a testable hypothesis, but as an open invitation to God...NOT a hypothesis to disprove it. You could try that too, but there has to be openmindedness somewhere.
  
  I offer a friendly challenge for you to do that, and let me know of your findings and results. I think it would answer the question for yourself once and for all. What do you think?
  

• grannypoet said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Why must God be proven when Faith the basis of most beliefs mean... " belief that is not based on proof:" If proof is required it is not faith. Not all religions believe the same thing totally but the basic laws for behaviour , cleanliness and respect can be found in all of them.
  Believe as you will, but please respect, freedom of thought and speech, and people will respect you for your thoughts.... This is the basis on which i TRY to live.
  Both science and faith have a place in this world and can reside together in peace IF we the people allow it,, why must there always be bickering between different beliefs? EASY.... human nature...we will argue and debate til we are no more, the seeking of answers will never stop... so all we can hope for is respect to guide our words and peacefull discussion will follow.
  Peace to all.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

  People who share a faith in a god cant even live together without war etc. Religion breeds segregation. How many Atheists have started a war because they believe there is no god?
   
  SG

• grannypoet said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Religion is controlled by humans, humans make mistakes.

  A faith in a God or Gods, science, or whatever you chose to belive i can respect fully, blindly following a religion because someone told you to,i will also respect this choice as it is your choice to make not mine but, i must admit to having trouble understanding why, Even the bible says question your teachers, look at thier actions and compare to thier words, dont blindly follow.

  Faith and religion are often two very different things, I have faith but i follow no set religion, i lean towards the beliefs that were here long before christianity, but i dont and wont just jump on any band wagon. I have studied many religions and in all i have seen the hand of man using religion to control others.

  Only ONE person dictates how i think and believe and that is ME..... This is MY choice and My life to live.. People may think i am wrong and really i dont care.. I disagree with others and thier choices but i respect thier choices and dont attempt to prove them wrong USUALLY,, but i am human and i also make mistakes... shooting off at the mouth (or keyboard) is a common human fault that most of us do at times...

  Be happy in your choices for yourself and respect others for thier choices also, only by respecting others can we also gain some respect ourselves...

• StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

  If humans follow the bible then the mistake is with the person(s) who wrote it.

  "You must kill those who worship another god."  Exodus 22:20

  "Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own.  Deuteronomy" 13:6-10

  "Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you.  Deuteronomy 13:12-16"

  "Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah."  Mark 6:11

  Religion leads man to make mistakes. The above is in the bible and man interprets these writing the way they are written. Or is anyone here claiming that these bible quotes can be interpreted differently?

  Religion causes war because it instructs man in the way of war.

  SG

• alipatemiller said on Jul 17, 2007....

  victor bryant     
   
  your attempt to portray yourself as one so brilliant and profound; preaching to us all about god, existence and the meaning of life; revealing to us your supposed deep insight into the bible is nothing more than the senseless and hollow ramblings of a supercilious twit.
   
  alipate miller

• grannypoet said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Religion.. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:

  The word itself points to it being made by man,,, religion is man made,, thus the need to judge the word of the man by his or her actions...

  Religion was created to rule, it is in itself political in nature... domination thru fear..

  Faith is a personal belief in something, that helps a person set thier rules, a guide for thier life path.

  The Bible was written by many men over many years, and has been altered, by many men again to suit thier way of thinking.

  There are many good points in the Bible, love your enemies, forgiveness, free will, are all mentioned,,, dont steal, dont kill, have good morals,, sadly these are often overlooked...

  You can get many different messages from this book, while a great book it isnt perfect. Wether it is the words of a God, or the rambling of power crazed men, or a combination of both no one here today can say.

  I am not going to tell people they are wrong to believe as they do.

  Personally i look at the bible as just a great book, a collection of writting from various sources, all tell a story.

  I will keep to my simple faith that there is something or a group of somethings out there greater than man, be they Gods, Aliens, or the power of nature itself, I dont know what they are but i will keep trying to live in harmony with all about me, this is all i can do, one day we will know the answers perhaps til then we only have our faith to guide up, no matter what that faith is.

  Religion rules, dominates, faith guides and sustains us.

  Be happy in your faith. Let others be happy in thiers.

  Peace Out

• StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

  "There are many good points in the Bible, love your enemies, forgiveness, free will, are all mentioned,,, dont steal, dont kill, have good morals,, sadly these are often overlooked..."
   
  Sorry but these points of morality existed before the bible so who ever wrote them into the bible was just reciprocating or observing that which was already taking place.
   
  SG

• grannypoet said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Just because something is repeated from earlier teachings does not take from them the value of whats said.

  When i said they are overlooked it was not aimed at you but at the leaders of relgions who choose to use thier religions as a means to further thier own greedy desires for power and wealth.  

  And these things are not the only things adopted by the new relgion of Christianity, Easter - The Germanic Goddess Ostara or Eostre (Goddess of the Dawn), after whom Easter is named, is the tutelary deity of this holiday. It is she, as herald of the sun, who announces the triumphal return of life to the earth.

  Our Christian friends are often quite surprised at how enthusiastically the Pagans celebrate the 'Christmas' season. Even though they prefer to use the word 'Yule', and thier celebrations may peak a few days BEFORE the 25th, they nonetheless follow many of the traditional customs of the season: decorated trees, carolling, presents, Yule logs, and mistletoe. They might even go so far as putting up a 'Nativity set', though for them the three central characters are likely to be interpreted as Mother Nature,Father Time, and the Baby Sun-God....

  In fact, if truth be known, the holiday of Christmas has always been more Pagan than Christian, with it's associations of Nordic divination, Celtic fertility rites, and Roman Mithraism. That is why both Martin Luther and John Calvin abhorred it, why the Puritans refused to acknowledge it, much less celebrate it (to them, no day of the year could be more holy than the Sabbath), and why it was even made ILLEGAL in Boston! The holiday was already too closely associated with the birth of older Pagan gods and heroes. And many of them (like Oedipus, Theseus, Hercules, Perseus, Jason, Dionysus, Apollo, Mithra, Horus and even Arthur) possessed a narrative of birth, death, and resurrection that was uncomfortably close to that of Jesus. And to make matters worse, many of them pre-dated the Christian Savior.

  AHH more fuel for the fire....  but the repetition of these things still should not lessen ones faith.. we believe as we choose, history will always repeat it seems and new faiths will continue to appear.. and new arguments will arise from somepeople needing to prove or disprove these faiths, and the wheel will just keep turning.

  I am not out to prove my beliefs, or disprove anyone elses, just stating my opinions.

  Peace Out

• stopmediabias said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Alipatemiller-I'm not preaching to anyone, just giving my opinion.  Your opinion seems to be filled with a bunch of fictional senseless drivel that has really no baring on the actual subject, except to try to shock or piss people off.  I may not agree with SG but at least he can back up what he says.

  "revealing to us your supposed deep insight into the bible is nothing more than the senseless and hollow ramblings of a supercilious twit."

  LOL....go back and read my post then read your comment, supercilious twit?

  SG-A lot to go over but one thing I find interesting is people on your side always point out that religion has killed a lot of people, very true.  On the other hand the Communist atheist movements around the world throughout history have killed far more people than religion.  Look at Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, the list is endless. 

  More later...

  V- 

   

• StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

  That is total rubbish. Im not sorry for saying that because you have not done your research and you have just made it totaly obvious.
   
  Nobody has been killed in the name of Atheism. People have been killed in the name of God. People have never been killed in the name of "No God". Hitler, Mao, Mussolini never said, "We are killing people becaue they believe in god" infact most of the pople who you just mentioned were supported in some sections by the religious becauese they shared the same political view. Please research before you make a statement.
   
  SG
   
   

• grannypoet said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Have to agree with SG on this, i cant find any reference to people being killed in the cause of non religious beliefs. Wars, mass murders in thousands have all been done in the name of religion, and often when religion and politics or greed mix, which is sadly only too often. Most athiests i have met have been good people, thier lack of a belief in a God has not stopped them from being helpfull to those in need. I have not had one knock on my door trying to push thier beliefs down my throat, i have not been threatened by them, History has not recorded them to have wiped out hundreds and thousands of people for simply wishing to wordhip as they believe in peace. I may not agree with all they say but they deserve the right to think as they wish as does everyone.
  SG has my respect, even tho i may not agree with all SG has said, after reading many posts by SG I can see that thought and alot of study has gone into the final descision made in reguard to beliefs.
  Keep it up SG, you have made some people think and thought leads to questions, and we can never learn too much.
  Peace Out

• StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Thank you granny.

  I can be abrasive and am often found to be offensive to the head strong and ill educated on matters of this kind.

  For that I offer no apology

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Hey SGenius, the comment about atheism is actually more true than you know. If anybody looks at the book "Jesus Freaks," it's actually a bunch of true stories of Christians getting killed/persecuted for their faith. And who does it to them? In recent years, it's almost always Communists. Whether it be formerly communist Russia, China, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, or what-have-you, Christians are often under fire for sharing a hope in Jesus that contradicts whatever communist regime exists in that situation. One could say all those stories were made up, but that would make them ignorant. Sir, truth is apparent if you seek it. But I think you're too busy being abrasive and unapologetic for saying offensive things to research the truth further. Don't cherrypick the Bible to support your points. Read it as a whole before telling Christians they're wrong. At some point, there is a limit to what someone can say about something they don't believe.

• stopmediabias said on Jul 17, 2007....

  SG-sorry I was in a hurry, let me clarify.  People under the banner of God have killed a lot of people.  You can also say people representing Athesim have also killed a lot of people.  Stalin closed 48,000 churches.  In other words there are wackos on both sides. 

  V-

• StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

  Point taken stopmedia but nowhere near the same extent.
   
  Lidstrom, I have pointed this out before but just to clarify again, I have read the bible. I cherry pick the parts that support my argument and am happy to discuss anyother parts that you think support yours.
   
  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 20, 2007....

  I see what you're saying SG. But cherrypicking is wrong, because you only value what you see wrong with the Bible, and refuse to open yourself to the benefit of Christianity.
  
  Racking up a body count comparison between Christians and nonchristians prolly won't get us anywhere, but the point is clear that religion is not the only reason behind war and murder.
  
  So SG, I know you have read the Bible to some extent, but how often? When? Did you simply find 10 perceived contradictions and errors and make them feathers in your cap and went on your merry way? Because that's not good enough to discount the Christian faith. It would help for you to answer oceanwaves' question about what you have read or learned in your own life that eliminates the possibility of a Creator. We hear your arguments from an intellectual standpoint, but what's at the heart of the matter for you personally?
  

• StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

  Ocean - I have studies the theory of evolution, darwin and science.
   
  Lidstrome - Their is no benefit to religion it is fundamentaly evil because it is a mind control device created to segregate. The fact that god does not exist is explained all through nature. The sheer complexity of nature and the universe proves as much as possible that there is no god.
   
  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....

  Oh, go to a church and watch your perceptions get debunked already! :)

• StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

  lol

  I have been to church and hated it. Boring, full of people that seemed to be in some sort of trance and all istening to a guy who was giving his own interpretation of the bible when there are so many.

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....

  Yeah, but you could say that of anyone who shares knowledge about anything, SGenius. Did you think up all of your beliefs in natural selection, evolution, and atheism on your own? Probably not...at some point, you have to take someone's word for it - that they tested facts in a lab and were honest about the results. Or that their findings are all there is to existence. At some point, you had to accept something that was told you.
  
  So there are many interpretations of many things. Don't fault a church for that, because that's how it goes for ANYTHING we form opinions on or base our beliefs around.
  
  That, and maybe the church you went to just wasn't very good :) I wish I could meet you in person and show you my church. Not perfect, but continually seeking God and loving other people in practical ways. Like having a mobile medical unit that sets up in local parks and offers the poor free medical care. Or supporting ministries and churches in Cambodia and Thailand that spread the Gospel, rescue children from forced slavery or prostitution, and establish places of worship or schools. Or helping the divorced sort through their feelings and forgive their ex-spouse. Heck, even donating hair to organizations that make prosthetic wigs for children with illnesses/treatments that cause hair loss. SGenius, there's a part of Christianity that I wish you could see, because you know all too well the negative and the bad that sinful, imperfect people have done in God's name, but if you saw the loveliness of when people "get it right," it is life-changing.
  

• StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

  There are charitable organisations that do all the things that you just said. They do not opperate under the religious banner. Therefore religion is not nessesary to help people. People can help people without religion. I applaud your selflessness in that regard.
   
  I think christianity owes alot to the world as it is and has done alot of damage to it.
   
  SG
   

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....

  I understand that Christianity, in the whole of the people who have adhered to it, are largely responsible for many evils.
  
  Just like white Americans should be more sensitive and loving, and actually apologize to Native Americans, African americans, and even Asian Americans who descended from Japanese camps during World War 2, Christians have to take responsibility at some point for the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, withholding God's Word from the common people, the Salem witch trials, and the like.
  
  But I would contend that HUMAN imperfection caused those ills, and that Christianity was merely the vessel they chose, just as many murders or crimes are justified by some ideal.
  
  And I also contend that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, NOT the religion of Christianity or other faiths, will fix the evil and darkness of this world, where many abort children to avoid bringing them into such a cruel place. Religion justifies all sorts of craziness, but SGenius, Jesus did not budge on many of the evils that humans - even lairs who claim to follow Him - commit.
  

• StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

  You say jesus did this and jesus did that? do you know this to be fact? no. Why do you make assertions about him when there is no proof that he even existed, at least Darwin did exist and he wrote his own theroies which later were tested many hundreds even thousands of times over and found to be correct. Natural selection hasd been tested thousands of times and can be witnessed if you take the time to visit a museum. Jesus didnt write about himself, if he was so amazing dont you think he would have written at least one word about his thoughts and feelings?
   
  You say personal relationship, a relationship is a two way thing. You must speak to him and he must speak to you. You and me both know that he has not directly uttered a single word to you about your life you simply believe that he has in effect you imagined it.
   
  SG

• stopmediabias said on Jul 23, 2007....

  This is an impossible argument to have because the vast majority of people in the country believe in some form of God.  You can never prove the negative and positive affects of a belief in God versus a no belief in God because their are not enough atheists confined to one area over a long period of time.  One could say the degradation of morality leads to troubles in society and honest religion promotes morality therefore the more religion the less degradation.  The actual society is very relevant also.  Take a hundred born and raised atheists put them in a confined area with no laws versus a hundered born and raised God believers and put them in a confined area with no laws, who would prosper more?  I would also agree that honest religion has done far more good than bad. 

  V-

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....

  If honest religion = Jesus, then I totally agree with ya. You bring up some good points, stopmediabias. A healthy debate can only happen if the two sides are on the same page, same playing field, etc. But two radically different worldviews (atheism and Christianity) aren't even in the same book. The reason I explain at length is solely for SGenius' benefit.
  
  SGenius, if anyone has difficulty hearing God's voice, it's because they can't, or won't, stop to seek it. Be careful in how you question someone's faith, because you are, in fact, calling me a liar.
  
  For the sake of answering your question, I'll overlook that veiled accusation, though. Forgiveness, right? :)
  
  I have always been great at writing, no matter the topic. But using that gift has always been a problem for me. I spent 24 years of my life thinking I either had nothing to write about, or that I did NOT have the ability to sit down and write a book.
  
  So I fasted and prayed for a week, the first time I've ever fasted. I did it so that I would put myself in need in order to depend upon God more. I would simply pray instead of eat for breakfast and lunch, and eat at dinner. But in my prayers, I was more focused, because I did it more often. I read God's Word more. And during that week, I asked God to help me with my career, my calling, my purpose.
  
  And clear as day, He told me: video games. I took that to mean being a video game designer, because I could be creative.
  
  So I worked on getting started, which meant starting as a temp game tester, working horrible hours. I did that for a week, and realized that the job's demands wouldn't permit me to maintain a loving relationship with my wife. So after a few months of online classes and job searching, I let go of that.
  
  God's so-called voice failed, right? Well, no. During my time designing games, I found an idea that stuck. That not only warranted a good game, but a movie. Or a TV show. Or comic book. Or, finally, a novel.
  
  I spent over a year researching after that, and last New Year's asked God to give me what I never could muster myself - the discipline to write and finish a book. Five months later, it was completed.
  
  I was not prepared, or willing, to write a book at the time God said "video games." But if that got me on a path to my true purpose, then He knew what He was doing.
  
  SGenius, you can afford me the ability to know when I hear a voice and when I make-believe a voice for myself. The only fault in all of it is that I don't consult God enough.
  
  You could ask why God didn't just directly zap me into a chair and write a book. Well, we have free will, remember? Until He intervened, I would have chosen to hem and haw about writing a book. But now, I'm months away from getting it published.
  
  If I told myself God spoke to me, or did anything else by my own power, the book would not have been written, just like it hadn't been written for 20-some years before. But praying to God put me on a path much like Mr. Miyagi did to Daniel-san ("paint fences? Wax the car? What the hell? Oh wait, I can block karate attacks like a badass. Thanks old man!"), but God directly did something for me, and that is proof for me, SGenius. I know that's not enough to convince you, because it has to happen in your own life. And that's the reason why I persist. I seek to bless you and others hearing our discussions by presenting that Jesus is the single greatest thing going for us when all else goes away. He offers help to the poor and rich alike, and does not discriminate against us based upon how much we know about stuff. He is love, simply, and He loves me. That is enough.
  
  
  

• kelly said on Jul 26, 2007....

  "I have read about what has been called the woodpecker proof.  If the woodpecker had evolved instead of being created all at once it would have died from a stroke the first time it pecked wood because it's brain would not have had the proper protection. I don't know of anyone that does not believe natual selection as improvement of the species, but not as an explanation of evolution."
  
  
  Wow, that's quite a proof.  My hat is off to the grade schooler who thought of it.
  
  
  The problem with arguments like that is they completely fail to grasp the sheer amount of time involved in a species evolving.  The woodpecker did not just evolve one month from a chipmunk into a flying, wood hammering creature.  It happens in small increments over time too long for the mind to really grasp.
  
  
  By the way, natural selection IS an explanation of evolution.  They're pretty much inseperable.

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 26, 2007....

  Sarcasm won't drive your point home very well, kelly.

• stopmediabias said on Jul 28, 2007....

  Sorry Oceans, if you want to link to your propaganda sites do it on your own blog.

  Kelly-How long will it take for monkeys to get out of the jungle and build houses with ovens where they can make bananna bread?  Since (according to evolutionists) this has all ready happened where is the proof of the actual jump between monkey and human?

  ________

  Why is it today, we can find leading scientists who can put forth theories about Design and Random evolution yet the mear mention of offering both sides to our kids and people flip out.  It is possible to propose a theory of design without bringing religion in. 

  V-  

   

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 30, 2007....

  You mean, it's possible to acknowledge intelligent design without religion? That does open up a can of worms that could be really productive.
  
  If a child is told that either evolution or intelligent design is our best theory of how we came to be, they might naturally wonder why they're here. Religion does explain why in many cases...I think the Creation account in Genesis is the best explanation personally, but I am seeking to reconcile it with known scientific methods of dating matter. I don't want to make excuses for the Bible, but neither do I want to accept radioactive dating as the rock-solid proof of the Earth's age, either - that method could be rendered obsolete in light of new evidence. So, while the Bible has stayed the same for centuries, I'm not going dismiss it all because of the popular science of our day, which will likely be improved upon in subsequent generations.
  
  At the school I did Master's work in, it is a Christian institution, but they teach evolution as a theory. They present both sides.
  

• stopmediabias said on Aug 01, 2007....

  Oceans "sigh" everyone knows absolute peace is a complete illusion.  If you want to end with Peace, love, eat shit, your mother wears combat boots, I don't care, but if you want to enlist people for a cause I think is dangerous and just plain ridiculous then I'd prefer you do it on your own side.  That's not tyranny and it is not unreasonable. 

  V- 

• kelly said on Aug 02, 2007....

  "Since (according to evolutionists) this has all ready happened where is the proof of the actual jump between monkey and human?"
  
  
  Evolutionary science doesn't claim we descended from monkeys.  It's apes, actually.  The fossil record is rich and the research on natural selection and genetics is clear.
  
  
  There aren't even two sides to this argument.  There is evolution based on testable theory and there is religious belief.  Can you guess which one doesn't belong in a science classroom?  Or are you suggesting that evolution gets equal time in churches and synagogues?

• kelly said on Aug 02, 2007....

  "Sarcasm won't drive your point home very well, kelly."
  
  
  Well, facts aren't going to do it.  :-)

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 02, 2007....

  Sorry kelly, but condescension won't drive it home either :) Just because you are unwilling and incapable of having faith in God, doesn't make Creationism a moot point. But neither do I look down on you for your views.

• BlueHotRage said on Aug 09, 2007....

  "Don't cherrypick the Bible to support your points."
   
  Everybody cherrypicks the bible to support their points!
   
  If they didn't, Fred Phelps wouldn't use the story of Sodom and Gomorrah to denounce gay people, because he'd realize it's actually about incest.

• StupidGenius said on Aug 09, 2007....

  Kelly is right,
   
  Realy evolution vs creationism is not even a serious debate. Athiests dont even recognise that there is even the slightest reasoning or fact for believing in God or creationism. Therefore I should not even bother to explain to the religious why their god is the most improbable unfactual unrealistic fabrication known to man.
   
  I argue my points in the hope that logic will win over blind faith. I know deep down that it never will but I cant help but try, the same as the religious cant help but condem or attempt to convince that it is better to believe than not believe.
   
  This argument/Discussion will continue long after im gone, I fear at some point there will be another world war and at the roots of that war will be Christianity vs Islam.
   
  (Funny how these two only came into exsitance thanks to the pagens and the jewish lol)
   
  SG

• grannypoet said on Aug 09, 2007....

  Just have to ask,, what the hell did pagans have to do with creating Christian or Islam??  

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 09, 2007....

  I know what you're saying, blue, but there is a difference between seeking the Bible for guidance on an issue, and taking one verse out of context for a personal agenda. Not all quoting of the Bible is cherrypicking to support your own position. The Bible is God's Word...it's God's position. Fred Phelps might not be going about it the right way, but yes, God does count homosexuality as a sin. That's a whole other can of worms, however.
  
  Bottom line is, if you quote the Bible to bless another person, or to correct them, then it's not cherrypicking - it's proper use. If it's merely to appear "right" and win a debate, or to impress others, or to puff yourself up, it's definitely cherrypicking. The Bible says "Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those that humble themselves will be exalted." That includes quoting the Bible...if you do it to exalt yourself, God will show you in one way or another that it was wrong.
  

• StupidGenius said on Aug 09, 2007....

  Granny,
   
  The pagens were more or less the basis for the jewish religion, and the jewish religion is more or less responsible for christianity and islam. Religion evolved over 1000's of years.
   
  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....

  What if you're wrong, SG? What if God's followers were Jews until the arrival of Jesus, when Christianity arose?
  
  What I tend to think is that people can tell the difference between the spiritual world and its influences, and mere mythology. Not many live their lives for the glory of Zeus, the Easter Bunny, or the flying spaghetti monster. We can tell it's myth (although the Bible hints that ancient heroes, maybe even the foundation of mythology, were derived from fallen angels who took human form). But there have been millions of followers of God over millennia, and the Bible is the best-selling book of all time - not Aesop's fables, not Homer's Odyssey, etc.
  
  This isn't to bust your chops, but to make the point  that if you're wrong, there's a whole wealth of abundant life we can enjoy by following a real God, not one that was created by man.
  

• stopmediabias said on Aug 11, 2007....

  It is now time for all of us bow to absolute Genius of SG.  As matter of fact reading SG's dialogue has completely convinced me that God does not exist so ya know what, fuck it!  I'm just gonna vote for the next one the runs on the Atheist ticket.  As matter of fact, I'm just vote across the board Atheist, Senators, Congress, School Board members, because technically those God-people are nuts and I don't want any of them running the country anymore.  And while I'm at it I'm going to switch my doctor, dentist, mechanic, gas man, garbage man, barber, my kids teachers, everyone to Atheist since those God-people have fallen for the greatest hoax of all time and must all be raging morons.

  SG-there are thousands if not millions of people who have spend their lifetimes studying science and have advance degrees to prove it and these people believe in the existence of God.  When you make these broad unsubstantiated statements you just write off all these opinions when you should probably go and read some of these opinions beforehand.

  Every single day more holes are punched in Evolution, which makes it less credible than the day before.  Scientists make theories on Evolution and at the same time can have theories on Intelligent design without any mentioning Religion.  You Atheists are more obsessed with Religion than we are.  Everytime someone even implies the notion of God Atheists start foaming at the mouth crying religion.  And most Atheists have become so out touch with reality in regards to Evolution that Evolution has become their "religion."  I think it is time for everyone on all sides to grow up.  There are no absolutes in this debate.    

   

• StupidGenius said on Aug 11, 2007....

  Lidstrome
   
  There is no difference between mythology and Religion, They are both unproven and unfactual. They are both in effect stories. The best collection of stories is the most obvious choice for recieving the most readers. Dosnt make it true. You cant prove the existance of god, the sphagetti monster or the easter bunny the same as you cant prove the existance of god. God is simply a story you choose to believe.
   
  Stopmedia...
   
  Their are infact very few eminent scientists that believe in god, most are either agnostic or atheist. When you truly understand the process of natural selection and the process of evolution it is by far the more reliable. I am interested in what holes have been punched in evolution? None that I know of. Maybe you should educate yourself more on the subject and make sure you argue your point from a semi-sustanable stance.
   
  SG

• stopmediabias said on Aug 11, 2007....

  SG-The Book: Cosmos, Bios, Theos, check it out, it has a large number of eminent scientists that believe in God.  The book was written specifically to ask them about God and evolution etc..  Many of them disagree that evolution is a reliable answer.

• StupidGenius said on Aug 12, 2007....

  For as many scientists that you can come up with that think god is a resonable explanation for the complexity of the universe I can quote 5 times (if not more) that think creationism is rubbish.
   
  Im not saying that religious people are morons, im saying that they are misguided and rely on incorrect and unfactual reasonings that have structured their believe system through the ages. The story of jesus who is normaly a christians last hope when believing in creationism is just a story that was written and created thousands of years before hand when the egyptians wrote about Horus. Look it up. Or watch this.
   

  On a secondary note, Hawkins quote has been mistanslated by religious people wanting to get him on their side. He was and is clearly and Atheist.

  SG

  
   

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 14, 2007....

  Hey SG, I just watched the video, it seems pretty interesting.
  
  I had a chance to go to the Institute for Creation Research this past weekend near San Diego, and it was pretty enlightening. It puts forth flaws in evolution as well as theories backed up by Scripture. My mind was leaking out the ears from all the information presented, but when all is said and done, I liked very much what I saw. I've never considered myself a young earth creationist, but after seeing the full explanation of it, I'm more inclined to agree with it.
  
  So about that video - not as offensive as you can be :) So I dunno why Youtube would have controversy with it. Keep in mind that there are Christians who just don't know enough about the Bible yet to refute that stuff on their own terms. Plus, you have the mean-spirited rant at the beginning directed at Catholics, and what do you expect? Don't mistake the fact that it takes a lot of patience to be a Christian and listen to some of your sweeping generalizations (all religion is a delusion, Christianity is on the same level as mythology, etc.) and abrasive attitudes and yet still have a civilized discussion. I would assert that you would benefit from an attitude adjustment.
  
  Back to the video, it's got a lot of knowledge explaining astronomy and astrology, i.e. Sirius, the star in the East, as well as the signs of the Zodiac and the regulation of time passing through the sun, moon, etc.
  
  I believe that all of those things provided to help mankind on a consistent basis of time was a complex set of laws created by God in the first seven days of creation. For those things to happen, even after billions of years if you go by carbon dating, by chance arranging of matter, is such a small chance that there must be evidence of a Creator.
  
  Why? Simply, Earth is the only planet that has ever, or probably will ever, sustain life. It is in such a small range of distance from the Sun, just right to sustain human life. It's distance from the sun is so precise that we can enjoy 24 hour days, rather than the much longer days and nights of Mars, with alternately scorching and freezing temperatures. The evidence is overwhelming that Earth was deliberately created, as is, to support life.
  
  I believe God created the sun and moon and stars, and that everything that was explained in terms of astrology in the video was designed by God to assist man. He forbade that such designs be worshiped by man, which they did, and still do, unfortunately (how many people take horoscopes seriously?).
  
  The most poignant point that the video made, to me, was the similar characteristics of a few dozen gods that shared similarities with Jesus Christ. Since the arrival of Jesus, more lives have been affected by Christ than any of the other gods mentioned. Only Horus is as recognizable to the average person. These gods of mythology could have been embellished tales of real people of the ancient world, but if they are largely myth, who is to keep their myths from being changed over time?
  
  What makes me skeptical is that it is entirely possible for dozens of centuries-old lesser gods to have Christlike attributes to add credibility. For every Britney Spears, there's a Christina Aguilera, Mandy Moore, Jessica Simpson, and so on.
  
  What is further is that there are many Old Testament prophecies that foretold not only Jesus' coming, but how He would arrive. These range from specific to allusion, from the book of Genesis, to Psalm, to Isaiah, and others. I can look them up if you'd like, when I have more time. Jesus fulfilled a bunch of prophesies spoken about Him that are documented in the Bible. Even without all the other pretender gods that share traits with Christ, there is an abundance of evidence that Jesus is exactly who He said He was, because others came before Him and confirmed it.
  
  Babylon is spoken of negatively in the Bible, and perhaps for good reason. It could be that all lessers gods were given names and reputation in that ancient city. If the Romans could attempt a conspiracy to make it look like Jesus didn't really rise from the dead, it could be that some would be just as dishonest about increasing the importance of the god they worshiped.
  
  The Bible's accuracy itself is disputed. However, when one compares the Hebrew Bible of the Dead Sea Scrolls (compiled between 200BC - 70AD), to the Masoretic text (from which our modern bible translations are derived from today), the Masoretic text, centuries older, matches up almost exactly with the Dead Sea Scrolls, apart from word variations and minor translation mistakes.
  
  You speak of conspiracies, SGenius. They are nothing new to the educated Christian. If Roman guards tried to cover up the Resurrection, I can believe that Noah's Ark, for example, can be somewhat visible on Mount Ararat, but that could be covered up because it lies within the borders of Iran, and it has not been open to foreigners easily in recent years, if at all. There are many who have claimed to see it, and if it is true, it refutes Islam (heavily adhered to in Iran) and just about every religion except Judaism and Christianity.  What if its remains are in plain sight, but its territory is tightly controlled for military reasons?
  
  I will not assume that every lesser god mentioned in the video got all their similarities to Christ from Jesus's life, but it would certainly add credibility to their worshipers, while watering down the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Talk about a conspiracy!
  
  Mythology and lesser religions have nothing to fear, in a sense, because they are supposed to be fantastical, but they also do not require real sacrifice of its adherents. In other words, many religions are popular because they tell their worshipers what they want to hear, without asking anything back.
  
  However, Christianity has enemies because Jesus debunked every other religion or way to Heaven except for Him. That would incite a lot of resentment for anyone believing anything different (yourself included, SG). People don't scratch unless there's an itch, and even though they don't admit it, it seems atheists and nonbelievers stand the most to lose in God's eyes, so it adds resentment and bitterness to their arguments - something I've seen personified in you, SG.
  
  All those other gods could have been created by man, or inspired by fallen angels who came to Earth with much greater knowledge than mankind of that time, much sooner than Jesus  appeared on the Earth.  But the prophecy concerning Jesus that is throughout the Old Testament, and the "imitator" quality seemingly adopted by lesser gods, lead me to suspect that those attributes (born of a virgin, crucified, birthdate December 25th, etc.) were either fabricated after the coming of Christ (why else would they be significant? Yes, the video mentions astronomical basis for the star in the east, yet there is no other significance to those similarities, other than the fact that everything about Jesus' life was prophesied and fulfilled).
  
  It's true that crucifixion was nothing new to the world by the time Christ came along - the Romans apparently got it from the Carthaginians, and it is mentioned as occurring in ancient times. But if only one archaelogical discovery of a crucified victim has been found (check out crucifixion in wikipedia), we cannot verify when it was actually invented. Further, in Roman times it was an exceptionally cruel way to die, meant for grievous criminals. Jesus willingly submitted Himself to a torturous death to save mankind; lesser gods who were apparently crucified before Jesus' time, if any actually existed, would have no such significance to claim as the reason they were dead.
  
  Jesus told His disciples that He would die, lay buried for 3 days, and then rise on the third day. It happened. He appeared to them many times afterwards, was witnessed by a crowd of 500, and ascended to Heaven in front of the disciples. There was significance to everything Jesus did, a significance followers of other religions would want to add to their own gods, no doubt. Keep in mind that Jesus was born of a virgin on December 25th for his own reasons, which are explained in the Bible; this renders similarities to previous gods mute, because there were specific reasons for all of it.
  
  Above all, there's junk about Horus that doesn't have anything to do with Christianity at all (some homosexual business about him and Set that decided which one would rule Egypt). Simply, the Bible has remained virtually unchanged for centuries, while there is clear effort to resolve conflicts of Horus' story (again, see Wikipedia under Horus).
  
  I could go on, but there's stuff to do tonight and so I will retire with those initial thoughts. My faith remains unchanged. I wouldn't put it past ancient Babylon to claim gods above that of the God of the Bible, nor would I doubt that parts of Jesus' story were adopted by other religions to add significance to it. What makes Jesus and Christianity worthy of being copied AND hated by tons of people? Simply that there is a Savior of immense power in the Bible that would sound good for any religion. But the truth itself is greater than any imitation. That's why I continue to follow the Bible.
  
  

• StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

  Based on your theory, Horus is like Britney and jesus is more like jessica simpson. Horus came before jesus, as did mythra... Interesting how you consider them lesser gods. Cant see any valid reason for you saying that other than the fact that you cant accept that the story of jesus is just a regurgitated version of other idols. Christianity is no different from any other mythology. The bible has remained unchanged because it was spread by the sword much the same as islam was. It was forced on people therefore developing more followers by discounting other stories such as horus. Some people remember the story of horus and it will continue to bite christians on the ass until the myth of christianity is dissmissed as simply that.
   
  Of course the myth of jesus attempts to debunk the other myths. If it didnt then it would have no followers. History has shown that christianity is a myth, evolution has shown that christianity is a myth. The universe is not proof of design, the universe if anything is proof of no creator because the being that created it would have to be more complex than all it created. And things that complex dont just pop into existance.
   
  Creationism in any form, young earth etc does not not punch any holes in evolution. It simply tries to attack it while still clinging to the bible in a futile attempt to uphold its new threories.
   
  I commend your attempt at research but it has fallen way short because you dont read or understand enough about evolution or natural selection you only think you do.
   
  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....

  Did I say I claimed to know the inner workings of evolution? Anyone catch that?
  
  You are lost, SG. Not condemned to hell, not spited by an angry God, just lost. Disillusioned of the very thing that can set you free from the suspicious, conspiratorial beliefs you hold of our government, free of the hostility of faith in anything, and free of the abrasiveness you shove in Christians' faces every day here. If your strongest beliefs and words are to discourage the faith of others, the message you carry debunks false religions but blinds you to the actual truth of Jesus Christ. No other power I've seen outside of Jesus has transformed lives of people with no material worth into an individual with a purpose. If you only attack and refuse to consider any points, you'll only win empty battles.
  
  Are you so sure of what happened over 3,000 years ago, when the Horus myth originated? So sure that the central character of the world's largest religion was plagiarized from dozens of other gods? You speak definitively of things you have no proof of, and blast Christians for the same thing. I appreciate the compliment on research, lol...it's about the only thing you've conceded.
  
  I am definitely more inclined that the Britney of religion, Jesus, was plagiarized by other gods that have had little of the impact that Christ has. Remember, other gods may have been worshiped before Jesus, but Jesus existed before mankind ever dreamed up worshiping the sun or the signs of the zodiac.
  

• StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

  "but Jesus existed before mankind ever dreamed up worshiping the sun or the signs of the zodiac."
   
  Come on... the get out clause for all christians is "My god created your god..." dont you see the irony of your argument. You attempt to research but realy you may as well not bother because even if your proven wrong you will still claim that what ever the proof is "God created [ insert fact ] so that means god exists no matter what you say"
   
  Have blind faith and believe what you feel is right but accept that you have no proof and dont argue a case for jesus agaist fact when your agument contains none.
   
  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....

  Um, but if God created everything in known existence, that would kind of discount any other gods, wouldn't it? That wouldn't be a childish argument; that'd be truth. And, lol, you'd benefit from taking a venomless look at it because if that argument is true, your entire worldview is screwed, man.
  

• StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

  But your basis for believing in a "God" is only based on a book written by a person who stole part of it from the jews. If you are going to have a religion I would suggest being jewish, paegan or following the original sun worshippers of around 3000bc (maybe earlier).

  You cant use the excuse but god created everything because you have no factual basis for believing in a god of any kind. If I tell you a watch is 24 caret gold, wouldnt you want some kind of proof before you pay $1000 dollars for it? Or do you simply have faith that im telling you the truth?

   If you dont check for proof then I have a lovely watch you may like to buy.... I accept credit cards.

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....

  lol, good point, SG. But I'm still not buying the watch.
  
  In a sense, I am Jewish - I follow the same God, but when God sent Jesus to Earth, the Jews missed the boat on who was their actual Messiah. No doubt that's why the Jewish priests of Jesus' day were outraged at His claims. What was written of Jesus Christ is virtually unchanged since 70AD. Check the Dead Sea Scrolls to verify that, bro.
  
  I do seek proof, and I got it: I ask God for help, and He answers in ways I couldn't think up. From the night I wanted to commit suicide, to my relationship with my wife, God has shown up. In that effect, I know the watch is a Rolex, so to speak.
  

• StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

  God hasnt answered any of your prayers, if he has then he is not doing a good job because (this may sound harsh) there are more important people in the world ie children with aids and cancer. Surely they should be helped or saved by god rather than someone who is suicidal?
   
  Unchanged dosnt make something proven, factual or constitute proof. It is just a continuation of a story simple as that.
   
  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....

  Wrong, SG. God cares about and values all human life, even those that society has given up on. The Bible says that if God tends to the need a common sparrow, how much more will He love and attend to human life - the crown jewel of Creation? God hears all needs from all people at all times - the only thing that limits God's ability is when people assume He isn't there, or can't help with their needs.
  
  You also overstep your bounds by assuming prayers aren't answered. I mean, I know that you assert that God doesn't exist, therefore no one is hearing such prayers. I don't really mind you telling me I'm wrong, it's just that my life is markedly different with God than it was without.
  

• StupidGenius said on Aug 16, 2007....

  So god hears the cries of the newborn babies that ache and suffer with the pain of aids and cancer eating away at their tiny bodies and he does nothing, instead he comes to a person who is suicidal and help him back on his feet. Does that seem right to you.

  Or are you saying that if the babies could somehow announce that they believe in him that he would float down and take away their pain.?

  Prayer does not work, it is folly to believe that it does.

  SG

   

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....

  It's even bigger folly to believe it doesn't work.
  
  Aside from putting words in my mouth, it's no wonder you don't believe in the idea of a God - the Creator of the Universe can indeed tend to all people at all times. I don't believe that babies are separated from God if they can't profess personal faith or aren't baptized. I believe God comforts and relieves all pain, even babies who die of disease. I also believe He knew of us and had plans for us before we were even born. The Bible says as much, and for God to know my deepest needs, He'd have to foresee my existence.
  
  The bitterness and the venom are all I see from you sometimes, SG. And it only hurts yourself, and possibly others through your words.
  

• stopmediabias said on Aug 18, 2007....

  "Im not saying that religious people are morons, im saying that they are misguided and rely on incorrect and unfactual reasonings that have structured their believe system through the ages. The story of jesus who is normaly a christians last hope when believing in creationism is just a story that was written and created thousands of years before hand when the egyptians wrote about Horus. Look it up. Or watch this."
   
  <sg's quote from above>
  You've implied relentlessly that religious people are far greater than morons.  And here we go with the religious crap again.  A person can believe that as a whole the entire universe, down to solar systems, down to planets, to humans, to cells, screams design contrary to the Atheist belief of order from chaos, and if we believe and call this design God, this has nothing to do with religion and certainly isn't "misguided and rely on incorrect and unfactual reasonings that have structured their believe system through the ages."
  It's cetainly no more wacky than than what we teach our kids in schools. 
   
  Lidstrom-You make some incredible points, for someone who believes in God, but to try to talk religion to an Atheist is like trying to talk a dog out of butt-sniffing.  This debate can get frustrating because there is no tie-breaker, which is why I think we all should be closer to the middle instead of far off on opposite ends.
   
  V-  
    

• StupidGenius said on Aug 18, 2007....

  Lidstrom,
   
  God commforts and relieves pain? tell that to the little children that are starving and will have a deep pain in their stomachs until they die from that lack of food. Does he comfort the cancer ridden who are slowly being eaten by the disease. Does he comfort those children who have inherited aids from their mothers and fathers yet have dont nothing to deserve it. The answer is no, if he created us then he is responsible for his actions and non actions. If he exists then it is a fact that he allows children to suffer. No fact or shred of evidence exists that even slightly points to his existance any more than the tooth fairy.
   
  I actualy am not bothered if people are offended or hurt from my comments, truth hurts because it goes against your core beliefs. I do try not to be offensive but i find religion offensive because it teaches you not to think for yourself, it teaches that morality would not exist without it and it teaches segregation of society. I find it offensive so I attack it as I am entitled to. If you do not like it then delete my comments or ban me from your posts. You have that option.
   
  My comments are intended to wake you up, to make you question your faith and to question the world around you, unfortunatly many of you are just happy to read from a book every time you have a problem instead of dealing with it yourself.
   
  Stopmediabias...
   
  If you find my comments offensive then you may delete them as you see fit. I aim to wake people up. What normaly happens is that people take offense to my comments and they go and research my point in order to prove me wrong, That in itself is part of the battle won because as soon as they start to research I am pleased because they are learning. Atheists are a growing poulation, we will not simply go along with scripture guiding our governments and scripture being taught in our schools. We want people to wake up and simply accept that they will discover the truth when they die and not any sooner than that. The bible is not the word of god it is the word of man and as men we are not perfect so could not write the word of "God" without manipulating it for our own ends. That is what has happened. It was soon discovered that religion can mean strength and maintain survival... People are gradualy understanding that and so the Atheists numbers grow, independant thought and self reliance is on the up. Church attendances are on the decline.
   
  SG

• stopmediabias said on Aug 18, 2007....

  Wow, I thought there was just religious kooks out there, I guess they are on all sides.  You are so blindlingly misguided that it is laughable.  Your comments are not offensive just ragingly closed-minded.  You talk about the Bible, which I don't understand because you have not read it or looked at it in a objective light.  Atheists represent a tiny sliver of population and even if Church attendances are down that doesn't mean less people believe in God.  Atheists are proven wrong everyday, every time another part of the theory of evolution falls apart we move a step closer to what the real truth is. 

  I think you look to much into just one side this debate, it is a lot more common for people who are Atheists to except the possibility of God versus the other way. Sometimes science isn't the answer and we have to do the best we can with the evidence we have. 

  V-

   

• StupidGenius said on Aug 19, 2007....

  Firstly, I was brought up in a semi religiouse family ( a belief in god was accepted as the norm) Therfore I have read the bible and know what it contains. That means I have read the bible from a religious point of view and a non religious point of view.

  Evolution has not had any holes shot through it, name some of them? My mind is open just not to the possibilitie of god or a higher being. This is because there are facts involved here.

  The real truth is infront of you, if you can explain to me why the evolutionary theory and natural selection are wrong then Im happy to listen. Atheists are no longer a slither of the polulation, there are alot more of us than you think. Atheists do not accept the posible existance of god, that is agnostic.

  SG

• StupidGenius said on Aug 24, 2007....

  There is a widespread misconception that good theories grow up to be facts and that the really good ones finally become laws. But these three categories of scientific description are neither directly related nor mutually exclusive. It often occurs that a single natural phenomenon can be described in terms of a theory, a fact, and a law -- all at the same time!

  By Dr. David N. Menton, Ph.D

   

  SG

• stopmediabias said on Aug 24, 2007....

  Oceanwaves said: (this is without the propaganda links)

  This is reply to comment of SG on 7-23-07  the theory of evolution, Darwin and science.

  As I have stated in the past I remember Darwin being an agnostic and I know education teaches evolution, but I think this is done more to not teach religion than to actually teach a belief in evolution;  I don't know of any sciencentific evidence proving evolution because if there was some proof it would no longer be referred to as the theory of evolution, but the law of evolution-If I am wrong please provide some actual source title with an author.
   
  I know when we say God has always existed this is questioned, but I am talking to you now.  What do you believe has always existed and why? Which of the theories do you adhere to and why?
   
  Lidstrome - Their is no benefit to religion it is fundamentally evil because it is a mind control device created to segregate. The fact that god does not exist is explained all through nature. The sheer complexity of nature and the universe proves as much as possible that there is no god.
   
  I must admit I have never heard of religion as being fundamentally evil or created to segregate; are you just referring to religion in general or just Christianity?  I really can't disagree that it is a form of mind control, but I have never heard of any religion being created to segregate I thought their intent was to bring people together.  I will admit however that religion has when misused caused conflicts but this was more the fault of man rather than religion don't you think?
   
  So let me see if I understand the second part of this statement.  The fact that nature and the universe is complex proves to you that something less complex is in charge of that complexity?  I have never heard that before and it makes no sense to me sorry; however I have to ask you based on that statement;  if you found a watch laying on the beach would you actually wonder how long it took the sand to come together to make that watch?  I always thought that was just a joke and no one would actually believe that.  I always heard that logic or complexity required something with even more logic or complexity to create that complexity.
   
  Oh by the way I am the blogger that said I would check out those verses for you (Exodus 22:20; Deut 13:6-10; Deut 13:12-16 and Mark 6:11)  The internet friend I have used in the past never got back with me.  I actually came up with a reply, but even I was not satisfied with it, and after reading your blog I knew it would not explain anything so I decided to just let you know I tried.  Sorry, but I'm not God and neither are you I suppose there are just some things we will not understand in this age, maybe in the next.  I don't know your political beliefs, but I always end with an offer to sign two petitions so here are your opportunity:  

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 24, 2007....

  Hey again SG,
  Let me start by saying that not even the Bible claims that those with God will live a painfree life. Sin affects us all, even the most pious. The thing with Christianity is that it requires love of God, and love of others. That's it's "agenda," and part of loving others is to be the hands and feet of God, so to speak, to seek out and offer comfort to the people living and dying in agony that you spoke of.
  I understand your passion to share what you find to be truth, my friend. Can't it come less bombastic? I'm not asking you coddle the religious, but in your words just respect them. Some of the frustration you face is not because Christians know you're right and just don't want to admit it - it's because they're called to respect you no matter what, but your belief system doesn't call for that same respect. I admit that, in the past, many of your points were null and void because they seemed to be out of pure spite, and honestly, most people can handle being disagreed with, but most won't listen well if they feel they're disrespected. So SG, I think your positions are hurt at times by the venom they come with, and would reach people better if you showed respect for what they believe and why they believe it - even if it isn't as ironclad (in your opinion) as atheism.

• stopmediabias said on Aug 24, 2007....

  SG- The problem with Evolution is scientists are no closer to proving evolution then we Intelligent Design (IG) people are to proving the existence of God.  If evolution is the reason we got here then where is fossil record of it.   In my opinion the possibility of an intelligent being designing everything that has come to be today is just as far-fetched as believing my cat evolved from a pile of single-celled goo. 

  Oceans-  What do you believe has always existed and why? Which of the theories do you adhere to and why?

  Without stepping in front of Lidstrom, I believe in the concept of an Intelligence that is far beyond what we could imagine as far as being able to create and calculate.  I believe an Intelligent being created the earth billions of years ago and that this is evident by how everything  works just like a well-oiled machine.  From the DNA in our bodies to the solar system, everything screams of design.  I also believe that this Intelligent being communicates with us in scripture. 
   
  I think religious people say: "He always was" as a sign of respect.  If you actually think about the question: What was before God?  There is no answer, so it's easy and it sounds great to say "he always was."
   
  V- 

• BlueHotRage said on Aug 24, 2007....

  lidstrom82 wrote: "The Bible is God's Word...it's God's position. Fred Phelps might not be going about it the right way, but yes, God does count homosexuality as a sin. That's a whole other can of worms, however."

  The bible also says gossip is a sin.  And I don't see any religious groups calling for the dissolution of the National Enquirer.
  
  lidstrom82 also wrote: "The Bible says "Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those that humble themselves will be exalted." That includes quoting the Bible...if you do it to exalt yourself, God will show you in one way or another that it was wrong."

  If that's the case, I can only hope that Fred Phelps is in for a serious humbling in the future...  Quoting the bible to speak ill of the unjustly murdered is just plain venomous and wrong.

• StupidGenius said on Aug 25, 2007....

  Evolution is proven, it is accepted by the vast majority or high level cridible scientists. Natural selection is also proven. Religion blinds people to the facts as those facts take away the safety blanket that the religious cling to. Accepting there is no god means that what they have believed in for a lifetime or more is pointless.

  We all need to remeber one thing, Religion claims there is a god, therefor you the religious need to prove he exists.

  It is not the responsibility of science to disprove God. If religion makes such a claim then it should back that claim with facts and evidence, If it is not able to then it cant even be classed as a theory because it dosnt have a shred of evidence in its favour.

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 27, 2007....

  Hey blue, those are good points. Gossip is one of those seemingly 'harmless' sins that aren't as drastic as murder or adultery, but it can suck the life out of a person about whom many rumors and lies are spread about. Simply, many Christians just avoid tabloids as a result.
  
  I also know from the Bible that people like Phelps WILL be humbled for using the Word of God for authority to claim whack stuff.
  
  SG, I know how ironclad evolution and natural selection are to you, but the truth is that for Christians, there is tangible, personal proof for God in their own lives - something that's beyond attributing unexplained phenomena to a fictional, good source. I say this to explain a very important point: you cannot explain God by the rules of evolution, natural selection, or observable science. Science HAS pointed to evidence supporting Creation, from the Flood to lineage of kings before and after the time of Christ, to explaining the human condition better than any other source in existence. All that is there for someone who openly seeks it. But proving it or disproving it like a scientific hypothesis is not the avenue by which God can be measured.
  
  In a way, Christians must "prove" to someone face to face that Jesus Christ is real and the savior of all, but it is not always through a list of geological, archaeological, or historical facts. The Gospel of Jesus speaks for itself. But if pushed for scientific explanations or on any other front, the Bible calls Christians to be ready to give a reason for the belief and hope they have in Jesus Christ. Many times that is not testable experiments in a lab; it is a personal  testimony of how God showed up to people in their lives, met their needs, and healed their wounds so they can live whole again. That includes people that have been miraculously healed beyond any explanation medical science can give. So again, testing God by scientific means will leave most people wanting, because relationships are what changes lives, not just proven facts. That's why a relationship with Jesus Christ will appeal more to a hurting person than the best explanation of evolutionary theory.
  
  
  

• StupidGenius said on Aug 27, 2007....

  Lidstrom,

  Yet again you claim that god influenced you, god influences others, god helps people etc. You only attribute things to god because you believe in him and you belive in him without any factual proof. Its a simple as that. It is only not simple to you because the brainwashing involved in religion is so imense that people realy do base their lives on a book written thousands of years ago but men who simply re-worked it from other religions and the tried to stamp ot the other religions by the sword.

  I would bet my house that anything you told me about your life and how god helped you I can explain to you in plain terms. God, supernatural beings etc are simply a figment of an imagination which has been shaped and moulded by the oldest mind control device known to man.

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 27, 2007....

  Because I've lived more of my life as a nonchristian than as a believer, I can justify everything you're saying as common sense.
  I think - and I say this without malice - for that some reason, you readily believe the worst about all religion. That makes you mostly correct - except for Jesus Christ. Did you know that the Bible actually argues that apart from God, everyone is actually in bondage to sin and to selfish desires? It's saying the exact opposite of what you claim - that those who live for God are safe, and those who believe other truths are actually the ones being controlled by unhealthy things. To being a voluntary servant for Christ is better than being an involuntary servant for anything else. All it takes is to ask Jesus to be real in your life; it is not nearly the mystery it appears to be.

• madstorm said on Jul 20, 2008....

  Jesus H Christ!! ... you guys can't half type!! ... the question is... if you are secure in your religious faith why do you feel the need to defend or debate it? and conversely... if you are secure in your atheistic faith (and is it another form of faith) why do you feel the need to defend or debate it?

  Confidence is silent.

• kelly said on Jul 20, 2008....

  No, atheism is not another form of faith.  Atheism is the absence of faith.  The religious apologists like to try this little rhetorical trick, making the absence of faith into just another illogical belief.  It is not, however.  Insisting that atheism is a "belief" is a sure-fire way to impeach your own credibility.

• madstorm said on Jul 20, 2008....

  I don't need any credibility... it's in the dictionary...

  Dictionary Definition of the word 'Faith'...

  1. Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth.

  Dictionary Definition of the word 'Belief '

  1. Mental acceptance of a claim as truth.

  Dictionary Definition of the word 'Atheism'

  1. Absence of belief in the existence of God or gods.
  2. The belief that a God does not exist.

  Are you arguing with the dictionary?

  Atheism is faith or belief that there is not a God & religion is faith or belief that there is a God...

  Neither can be proved...

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 20, 2008....

  Yo madstorm, I thought about what you said about having silent confidence and resisting the urge to defend or explain belief.
  Speaking just for Christianity, I'd say that in the Bible, Christians are instructed to always be ready to give the reasons for the faith we have in Christ. I take that in two ways: one, that we can share it constructively when asked, and two, so that we don't blindly follow what we believe and forget why we believe it in the first place.
  In terms of debating, I find that there's never a shortage of strong voices that denounce religion. Their opinion is theirs, and I'm glad they've thought it through and come to a conclusion on the matter, having reasons why they chose atheism or whatnot. However, I'm aware of people who are searching and looking for direction when it comes to spirituality...if all they hear are educated opinions against religion, then Christians haven't really done their job to speak out. The idea is that if faith in Christ brings us to the prime of our lives, why would anyone just sit on it and never try to bring that to others?
  One other thought is that if God does exist, then He's invisible - therefore proving His existence by scientific means or our 5 senses won't work. So if He can't be definitively proven to exist in those ways, we can't really decide one way or another. Because of that, it might take an atheist just as much faith/belief that God does NOT exist as it does for someone who DOES believe in God.
  Perhaps it's easier to convince ourselves that God does not exist than it does to consider that He's real.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 20, 2008....

  Which are you?

  1.

  If you believe that God has personally affected your life then you believe that he gets involved in humanity and its struggle for survival. The that means he is un-caring, that he isn’t bothered by children and new born babies dying everyday from aids and cancer and it also means that you are arrogant beyond reason as you feel that he has decided that you were in some way more important than those children or babies.

  2.

  If you believe that God does not get involved and that he simply sits back and watches then that means that he has created the world to be imperfect and couldn’t care less about whether we live or die and has no interest in our suffering from diseases that he also created, in other words he is a mass murderer. It also means that a personal relationship with god is impossible and that he in fact never sent a son to earth to die for our sins. Either way you look at it he is no good and doesn’t deserve the worship of an ant let alone a free thinking logical human being.

  Simple as that!

  SG

• madstorm said on Jul 20, 2008....

  Hello lidstrom82 my old friend... I should point out that personally I'm neither atheist nor theist. When freed from conditioned thinking the brain becomes very logical & picks out contradiction... if you'll forgive me I'll copy a comment I made elsewhere here... no point repeating myself...

  Dictionary definition of the word 'contradiction'...

  1. A statement that contradicts itself.
  
  2. In logic, a proposition that is false for all values of its variables.

  The Contradictions of the Bible

  1. Jesus' death was no sacrifice at all. In Genesis God created man from dust and breathed life into him... therefore God could have recreated Jesus after death anytime & as many times as he liked. Therefore the so-called sacrifice of Jesus was no sacrifice at all.

  2. Adam & Eve could not have sinned. Adam & Eve had no knowledge of Good & Evil before they ate the apple... therefore how can they sin if they don't know what sin is?

  3. God's Love? The standard answer to 2. is "they disobeyed God"... to punish all Humans for thousands of years just for the disobedience of Adam & Eve is not the action of a loving God.

  4. Adam & Eve committed Incest. If Adam & Eve were the first and only Humans as stated in the Bible then all human beings are the result of incest because there can be no grandchildren of Adam & Eve without brother & sister, father & daughter or mother & son having sex & producing children.

  5. Hell is hardly mentioned. Of the 14,000 different words in the Bible the word 'Hell' is mentioned only 54 times, the original Greek uses the word 'gehenna' which is derived from 'Ge Hinnom, meaning "Valley of Hinnom" a valley outside the south wall of ancient Jerusalem where the Jews burnt their rubbish... all the doctrine of fire, damnation & ever-lasting torment comes from Dante Alighieri's 'Divine Comedy' & other fictional works of human imagination

  Whatever 'God' is, it was surely there in the beginning... which means even if scientific dating is incorrect (which it probably is) then this 'God' was around way, way before the bible & humans were unaware of it. What happened to their souls? ... the concept of 'Limbo' was scrapped a while ago.

  If Christianity is so life changing, why is so divided? ... surely you would all be united? ... I think it's fair to say there are more Christian denominations than any other religion...

  I could go on but I won't... no need too... I don't believe in anything.

  Life is an ever moving, living breathing entity of immense beauty... that is sufficient for me. Belief, faith, be it in politics or religion stagnates the brain & it subsequently becomes illogical. Belief, faith is illogical.

   

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Hey SG! It's been awhile...like we both took a hiatus from Soulcast or something. How's the lil' tyke?
  Madstorm, heh, all those points are valid...not to mention absolutely loaded questions.
  Before I address either of your points, ask yourself this: do you even slightly consider that your position is wrong, or at least isn't the only viable option? In other words, are you both so thoroughly convinced of your positions that anything I say will be hot air and a waste of our collective time? You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know, as Jerry Garcia once said.
  Let me know what you think and we can have some dialogue. But I'm certainly not in the business of explaining things if anything I say becomes more ammo for someone else. This is a discussion, not a verbal war. If this won't lead us on a blamethrowing rabbit trail, I'm game for another conversation about God.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Madstorm - Your saying that you are not Atheist but all your views put that name tag squarely on your lapel for all to see. Being Atheist means that you are free thinking. It requires no "Faith" as it is simply based on logic and common sense.

  Lid- Hi matey, my boy is good and healthy thank "God" lol. Hope your doing well.

  We have all been round this block before. Any discussion to be viable must be based on fact or it’s like discussing who would win in a fight out of superman and Spiderman. If it is based on fact then there is no argument for a "Gods" existence as only blind faith leads you to the feeling that he exists. If you believe in fact and logic then there is no room for god in our world today.

   SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Haha, "matey"...sometimes I wish I lived in England...
  SG, I think that the invisible nature of the Christian God would make him unprovable by scientific means. At the root of all our discussions and rants, this renders one unable to test the other. We're both on the checkerboard of life, but I've got chess pieces and you've got checkers. Discussions are inherently worthless if we're trying to test God with scientific means.
  In other words, SG, can we have a civil discussion about God - something that transcends science - that you can be a part of, without an impassioned speech from you about how God can't be real because of "fact and logic"?

• madstorm said on Jul 21, 2008....

  No Lidstrom82... I have never considered "that (my) position is wrong" because I do not have a position... I do not know what God is... because I can never 'know' God. 

  Dictionary definition of the word 'Knowledge'

  1.Relevant information that one is able to recall from memory.
  2.The product of assumption.

  To know something is to recall it from memory, which means if it is in my memory then I must have known it before. In other words I recognise it...

  Dictionary definition of the word 'recognise'

  1. An awareness that something observed has been observed before.

  It is a simple logical fact that when you first meet a person you do not recognise them... you do not 'know' them... so... if someone has a new experience, a religious conversion for example, they cannot recognise it as God. It is impossible. When you first meet a human you recognise them as human but God is not within the realm of your experience... so you can never recognise it.

   

• madstorm said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Hi StupidGenius... I am neither atheist nor theist... the theory of evolution may well explain that Life has adapted to it's environment... in fact, it would be pretty stupid if Life wasn't adapted to it's environment. Evolution however does not explain the origin of matter. If a human wants to create something they use the material already available, God however started with nothing, so logically it used itself to create matter. Which means God & Life are not separate. Life is God & God is Life.

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Ah madstorm...but what a dictionary won't tell you is that by your assumption that you can never "know" God, you have effectively removed the possibility of knowing Him. You just based a decision on a self-fulfilling prophecy!
  By that one assumption, the Bible and a relationship with God is a closed issue to you. Maybe that's why your position does not include an understanding of Him.
  Further, the Bible explains that we (humanity) is created in God's own image...as well, Jesus' death on the cross bridged the gap between a sinning human race and a perfect God, just so you CAN know God.
  Honestly madstorm, to quote from the dictionary, verbatim, in order to disprove the idea of knowing God, is really a weak position. I don't say that to belittle you, I'm just saying there are much more points and questions and issues that get closer to the heart of the real matter - whether one can "know" God - than bandying technicalities about word definitions.
  The entire point I'm trying to make is that the measuring sticks we often use to relate to God are completely inadequate.

• madstorm said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Perhaps Lidstrom82... you should read my username description... my position is very clear...

  And perhaps... you should read my blog 'The Meaning of Life' where my position is even more clear...

  Only a suggestion.... save you getting typers elbow...

• madstorm said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Dictionary definitions aside Lidstrom82... the logic of it remains. For example... you do not know me... if I walk down the street & you meet me for the first time you do not know me... the only thing you know is that I am human. So if you meet God you have no basis of recognition unless you have met a God before... it's very simple... logical... & a fact...

• madstorm said on Jul 21, 2008....

  It's ironic Lidstrom82... because a faith or belief is in fact a fixed position where someone affectively says 'it is so' ... and that is a position where quote "you have effectively removed the possibility of knowing" or understanding anything else...

• StupidGenius said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Lid - You cant have a discussion about god and the basis of the discussion is that he exists? we cant discuss god because I dont accept for a moment that he exists. You cant say god transcends science when you cant even prove that he exists outside of your mind in any form.

  Madstorm - Evolution explains the progression of species including humans into what they are today. Evolution does not in anyway propose a reason for how the earth was formed. The earth was formed from the contents of a black hole, most people believe that a black hole simply sucks everything in, this is not true. The "Big Bang" theory is only called big bang becasue creationist gave it that name to show their contempt for the theory even being spoken of.

  Evolution = progression of species

  Big Bang = Creation of earth

  God is not even possible, god would have to be an imensley complex being to be able to create earth, the universe and everything. That means that something even more complex created god or you are of the opinion that something that complex just suddenly appeared one day. Dont think so lol

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Wow man, I read that blog and your position is much clearer to me...I don't agree with it, but I respect your pondering and thought and search for truth. With that said, let me address some of the points you made in the previous post. These answers operate from the standpoint that the Bible is true and accurate, that God exists, and that Jesus Christ is the savior of mankind....you know, small givens like that :)
  "The Contradictions of the Bible"
  (To tell you the truth, I'm not sure how much stock I'd put into claims of Contradictions...there's too many "experts" that simply don't do their homework on the Bible)
  1. Jesus' death was no sacrifice at all. In Genesis God created man from dust and breathed life into him... therefore God could have recreated Jesus after death anytime & as many times as he liked. Therefore the so-called sacrifice of Jesus was no sacrifice at all.
  (The Covenant God established with His people in the Old Testament offered a solution to the problem of sin - offerings given to God. Essentially, sin is so dire a consequence that for a human to commit it means death. So rather than have mankind instantly die a physical death from sin, God saw fit for animals to be brought as a sacrifice. God created both man and animals, and can use them as He deems necessary; accepting the sacrifice of an animal in place of a human being. Some offenses did bring the penalty of death in Old Testament times, but we're talking about how sin was handled.
  Jesus was not created. He existed before the history of the Earth, as God did. He was born as a man to live a sinless life, to pave a way for humanity to be saved. Jesus became sin on the cross, to die in the place of humanity's transgressions. I don't expect nonchristians to follow all of this fully - this overview is mainly to point to the Bible.
  Finite beings such as humans on Earth cannot transcend to a place and commune with infinite beings...but infinite beings can take finite form and interact with humanity, and that's what God did. Jesus formed a NEW covenant, that instead of praying to God and relating to Him with sacrifices and customs, Jesus' death rewrote the way we relate to God.
  So madstorm, Jesus sacrificed his life to give humanity a better relationship with God. No human alone could have done what Jesus did, and it sounds silly to discredit Jesus for doing something NONE of us ever could. )
  2. Adam & Eve could not have sinned. Adam & Eve had no knowledge of Good & Evil before they ate the apple... therefore how can they sin if they don't know what sin is?
  (Adam and Eve did not know of the term "sin" and all of the terminology we're familiar with, madstorm, but they received a command from God not to eat from the tree of good and evil. Though the serpent deceived them, they still willingly disobeyed God. You don't have to know the consequences in order to disobey someone...you often disobey without worrying about the repercussions. Therefore, they were responsible for what they did; they ate the fruit and realized all sorts of things they weren't meant to, and it changed humanity forever. The sheer amount of ramifications of what they did were unknown, but they STILL disobeyed God, which is generally a bad idea.)
  3. God's Love? The standard answer to 2. is "they disobeyed God"... to punish all Humans for thousands of years just for the disobedience of Adam & Eve is not the action of a loving God.
  (So would God or any parent refuse to punish their children, because apparently if you punish someone you aren't a "loving" God. Hogwash. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to punish, to discipline, to correct a child. I see children who rule over their parents because their parents do not understand the importance of discipline.
  Remember, madstorm, that sin was the consequence of disobeying God. It was an infinite, perfect being, and his perfect children deliberately ignoring His instruction. It's hard for us to understand this because life is much different now than it was for Adam and Eve, but the curse of sin is something every human being must make amends for.
  Lastly, this is exactly why Jesus sacrificed himself: so that sin would not be the ruling, brutal force that dictates our lives. We mess up bad on our own without having to blame God, or Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve messed up badly, and it's hard to fault God for what the punishment was, since He's God, after all...and besides, through Jesus, God gave us the perfect way out of our own mistakes.)
  4. Adam & Eve committed Incest. If Adam & Eve were the first and only Humans as stated in the Bible then all human beings are the result of incest because there can be no grandchildren of Adam & Eve without brother & sister, father & daughter or mother & son having sex & producing children.
  (Seriously think about this for a second...how would you have preferred that the human race began? If God created Eve and formed her from Adam's rib, does that count as incest? Would you have preferred God make her from the dust of the Earth, as God did with Adam? If he made them from two separate piles of dirt, would that be enough to clear the "incest" charge you level at them? Or is it still incest because they both came from the Earth? haha...
  Adam and Eve were husband and wife, formed from one flesh (literally)..if you'll notice, this term - "one flesh" - is mentioned at most weddings with a hint of religion included. Adam and Eve had all the bits and pieces necessary - should God have done stuff differently to fit into our current definition of incest?
  But perhaps most poignantly, madstorm, is this: if the entire human race came from the same two people, aren't we all committing incest in some form or another?
  The Bible does not mention specifically who adam and eve's children married. I do believe for the purposes of procreating and populating the Earth, you had to take two people and start somewhere, but because of the bonding of husband and wife, of one flesh, I do not believe adam and eve slept with their kids. I believe their kids, the first generation, married each other, but past a certain generation where were more options to choose from as far as who to marry.
  Besides, if Adam's "job" was to be the first of all people, I think his children growing up and procreating would be part of their function, to start the human race. Add to this the fact that Adam lived nine hundred and thirty years - I think there'd be enough descendants to go around for the marrying. Bottom line is this: to create the human race, I'm sure some form of "incest" as you define it happened. But if it was to create us all for the purpose of sharing creation with God Himself, how silly do we look to question God's actions when, without those actions, we wouldn't be alive to debate about it in the first place?
  5. Hell is hardly mentioned. Of the 14,000 different words in the Bible the word 'Hell' is mentioned only 54 times, the original Greek uses the word 'gehenna' which is derived from 'Ge Hinnom, meaning "Valley of Hinnom" a valley outside the south wall of ancient Jerusalem where the Jews burnt their rubbish... all the doctrine of fire, damnation & ever-lasting torment comes from Dante Alighieri's 'Divine Comedy' & other fictional works of human imagination.
  I admire your research into the origins of hell, madstorm. In the Bible, some words are used a lot, some not. But how many times should they have said hell to satisfy you? 53 times? a hundred? Once in every chapter of every book of the Bible? How exactly is this a contradiction of the Bible not to use the word hell enough times to convince you?
  Some conceptions of hell have been expanded upon in fiction, just like we picture the devil wearing red with horns and a pitchfork. Check out these verses: Matthew 5:22, 18:8-9, & Mark 9:43-49. Hell is described in terms of fire and torment. The Bible is actually clear that Hell is a condition and consequence of rejecting Jesus Christ - don't attribute that to fiction.)
  Whatever 'God' is, it was surely there in the beginning... which means even if scientific dating is incorrect (which it probably is) then this 'God' was around way, way before the bible & humans were unaware of it. What happened to their souls? ... the concept of 'Limbo' was scrapped a while ago.
  (According to the Bible, God CREATED humanity, and it started with Adam and Eve. Since them, God has been communicating with humanity, his creation...so since humanity hasn't existed without God, they've been aware of Him in some capacity if you take the Bible as truth. If not, it's a much more murky issue.)
  If Christianity is so life changing, why is so divided? ... surely you would all be united? ... I think it's fair to say there are more Christian denominations than any other religion...
  (Again, the effects of human sin affect even the religious. A community of people who follow Jesus Christ are most able to recognize and resist stuff like that. Unfortunately, not every Christian church is an accurate picture of God. It's akin to political parties or diehard sports fans - there are enough differences to incite much division and derision.
  I've seen two different denominations interpret the same Bible verse in two completely different ways, over an issue that was life and death as far as how important it was to someone's salvation. That is silliness.
  Also consider that if the Bible is true, we must take seriously what it says about the devil, who if he is truly hateful of God, he would seek to destroy the jewel in the crown of God's creation - humanity, and any connection they have with God. It's like Ivan Drago killing Apollo Creed in Rocky 4 - you go after what means the most to the other guy in order to bring him down. But on a serious note, division amongst Christians can very much come from the devil's influence.)
  I could go on but I won't... no need too... I don't believe in anything.
  Life is an ever moving, living breathing entity of immense beauty... that is sufficient for me. Belief, faith, be it in politics or religion stagnates the brain & it subsequently becomes illogical. Belief, faith is illogical.
  (Depending on who you talk to, life without God is just as stagnating as the worst aspects of false religion. Besides, the point of faith isn't to be logical, it's to believe in something unseen that would be to your benefit. Some believe in luck, some believe in love, some believe in God, some believe in science, which isn't really belief at all when I think about it.)
  Madstorm, I've seen your stance and while I don't agree with it, again...I respect the journey you're on, for sure.

• madstorm said on Jul 21, 2008....

  SG... as they say in the British Houses of Parliament... "I refer the Honourable gentleman to my previous answer"... Madstorm said "If a human wants to create something they use the material already available, God however started with nothing, so logically it used itself to create matter. Which means God & Life are not separate. Life is God & God is Life"

  Therefore... "earth, the universe and everything" is what humans have called 'God'...

  "You are the World & the World is You" - Jiddu Krishnamurti.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Sorry you cant make a statement like "God started with nothing so logically it used itsself to create matter"

  That makes no sense and is a total presumption.

  God does not exist, if he does I would like to give a kick in his "matter" because he is a mass murdering, hypocrytical, un-caring crap creator. Anyone who sits back and lets people get killed in natural disasters, and painfull slow deseases he created is not worth any worship at all.

  Fact vs Fiction, only one winner in any reasonable debate

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 21, 2008....

  lol...I forgot the absolute bluntness of your position, SG...you must be fun at parties:
  "Shawshank Redemption" is the best movie ever made. Your choice, "Breakfast at Tiffany's", is inferior. It's fact vs. fiction!" :)
  madstorm, speaking strictly for yourself, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy to say that you can never know God...if you believe that, you effectively made it so, because it takes two people to have relationship with each other.
  I would say that there IS a familiarity that all human beings have, a "God-shaped hole" as it were, that is fulfilled with healthy spirituality. It is possible to fill said hole with other things, because we have free will to do what we want. If we didn't have free will, the God-shaped hole would be, instead, a mandatory, involuntary act to serve God - holy robots!
  Well SG, I think you got a good grasp on the whole thing - you refuse to have a discussion about God because you don't believe He exists. I won't call that closeminded because you've thought it out and made a decision, and I think if I could convince you it would've happened already, heh, but if any god is omnipotent, perhaps they didn't need to be created in the first place.
  I had an interesting thought: mankind is the dominant lifeform on the planet, but we are not the strongest, smallest, largest, or fastest. We're certainly the smartest (but that's debatable - people in Michigan don't move south for the winter like birds do, although considering michigan winters, it's the smartest thing to do), but one thing is certain: the earth, and everything in it, was not created by us.
  Further, the earth contains and exerts forces that greatly shape our lives. Thunderstorms knock out our power. Hurricanes devastate coastal regions. Tornadoes sweep through our neighborhoods. Snowfall overcomes the fastest and most fuel-efficient cars from time to time. In effect, nature has the capacity to trump our own influence as a human race.
  It makes me wonder, if nature is complex and unpredictable enough to overcome us, was it in turn created by something or someone?
  If it was gradually developed and evolved, who or what created the building blocks of evolution, for example? If we operate under the assumption that everything we know must have been created somehow, we have to ask that of the universe, and our planet Earth.
  Everything we "create" with our knowledge and our skill is really fashioned from materials we didn't put here. We can manipulate objects, minerals, elements, compounds...we can configure them in such a way as to give us flight, speed, health, convenience, etc....we can even destroy matter through means of nuclear weapons...but we cannot create matter.
  Whether that matter came from God or complex, lengthy events in the distant past, the fact that we did not put ourselves here, or make the planet we live on, points to someone or something else at work. And to the average person who lives in, say, Florida, it seems more appealing to pray to a God for relief from a coming hurricane, than it does to worship nature and all within it, including natural disasters.

• kelly said on Jul 21, 2008....

  "Atheism is faith or belief that there is not a God & religion is faith or belief that there is a God...

  Neither can be proved..."
  

  I'm not sure this is worth the effort, but to reiterate, atheism is not a faith or belief that god does not exist.  Atheism is the absence of a belief in god.  If I have to disprove the existence of god YOU have to disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monsters, who controls our every action.
  
  
  I don't believe there is no god.  I can, however, reasonably state that indeed there is no god until I am shown proper evidence to the contrary.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Lid once again you state in a round about way that because there are things you dont understand then it must have been made/created by something more inteligent than us. A stoneage man if alive today would think us all gods when we sit in our homes, clap our hands and lights come on. We know how it works but they dont so they see it happen and think we are gods because it is far beyond their understanding of what is possible.

  I repeat, what seems impossible to us now will be explained through science and learning and does not require an assumption that a god created it. To assume it must have been created by a higher being of some kind is lazy.

  The earliest forms of religion are the same, They thought the sun was a god because it brought them light, helped grow the plants that produced food and kept them warm. We know now that it is the star at the centre of our universe.

  You dont need a god to give you guidence or a reason for being we already know why humanity exists. god is no longer a requirement to work that question out.

  SG

• madstorm said on Jul 22, 2008....

   And I respect you lidstrom82 my friend... you are thoughtful & intelligent in your comments... it's ironic really... because SG is more intransigent than any religious zealot.

  "Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to punish, to discipline, to correct a child." ... Love has nothing to do with punishment. My God... please tell me your not an advocate of 'spare the rod, spoil the child' (Proverbs 23:13 -14)

  I picked up a hitchhiker in Spain once... his name was Jesus... he was stoned on marijuana... but I digress somewhat...

  Is it not true that you were born without any knowledge? ... therefore all that you know has come from other people? ... that is a fact, after all... you don't know a tree is a tree unless someone creates a word, gives a tree it's a name & tells you... the same priciple applies to religion... it is what you have been told & any subsequent feeling comes from assumptions not fact.

  To say disobedience is a sin is a very dangerous thing... free will is free will... nobody has the right to dictate someones life... we are human beings... it is our right 'to be' ... which is to be who we are without interference. The trouble is we are not allowed 'to be' because we are told to conform to ideology that does not tolerate freedom.

  I'll tell you what's a sin... the 25,000 children we leave to die of starvation, malnutrition & disease every day... they are a direct result of human greed & selfishness. The Earth is not owned by anyone. I see the cause of human problems, I see the effect & alter my life accordingly... I live by that and nothing else... I don't have a 'For sale' sign around my neck... so I don't work & I have no money... work & money are used to exploit people, I don't own anything (not even the computer I'm using)... and yet I eat enough, sleep well & travel frequently... there is a whole other dimension to life where there is no fear of tomorrow, next week, next year... fear of survival has been exploited to force people to work, the result is the "God-shaped hole" you speak about... no religion can fill it... to fill it you must question accepted values & concepts... it takes time but underneath all the false values that society teaches us is the core value of Life itself. This core value answers all the questions the mind has about life & existence... and the result is peace.

  The Origin of Creation lies in the hearts & minds of all humans... it is our task to find it. No teacher can take you there. You must find it yourself.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 22, 2008....

  FACT

  Religion has no meaningfull place is a logical free thinking society, It has no place in schools and it has no value as a guide to living a good life. We lived without religion and we have lived with religion, it has no worthwhile effect on humanity infact I would argue that it has a negative effect and so my feeling is that we would be better off without it.

  Dosnt matter to me what label you put on me mad, I am comfortable with my beliefs because I have the freedom to change them when ever I feel, religion restricts this freedom.

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 22, 2008....

  Good thoughts madstorm. In some of your words I see a hint of relative morality, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I'm seeing...
  
  If love has nothing to do with punishment, how then do you correct a child? What consequences should they experience to learn that they made a mistake? This could be anything from painting swear words on their bedroom walls to throwing a massive party at the house while you're away on vacation. Do you let them do that without repercussions?
  
  I would argue that free will is not hampered by a universal morality. AKA, you can do something "wrong" with your free will and can still be punished. If we consider that morality is specific to each person, without an absolute, how then do we fit the legal system into that schema?
  
  As for knowledge, God claims in the Bible that He knew us before we were born, knew our names before our parents gave them to us, how many hairs are on our head, how many tears we'll ever cry...these are intended indicators that God knows us full well before we have any knowledge of our own.
  
  And as for religion  stifling individual freedom, if you're referring to Scientology, Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, and the like, then yes, there are traditions, customs, and restrictions that don't seem to make sense in today's world, and some circles of those and of ALL religions do indeed stifle freedom.
  
  What I've found is that I can sanely tell the difference between what one Christian pastor says is "good" and what another says is "dangerous." Guys, you're talking to a dude who's already walked away from one denomination BECAUSE of implications that my interpretation of God's Word was stopping just short of damnation! But instead of looking at it as reason why all religion is corrupt, by my personal faith I stay the course. See, I have individual freedom as a Christian, but there are core behaviors, like attending church, serving others, praying, worshiping, that define me as such. If I choose not to do them, I'm not exactly much of a Christian anymore, but YES...in this religion I have  that freedom. A freedom apostates from Islam do not have.
  
  As for the problems you listed as a sin, madstorm...you're right, they are a direct result of greed and selfishness. What I've found is that Christian people have a purpose and a goal to reach them...much more than the average nonreligious person. From my experience, some religions have better built-in reasons to heal the world. Here in America, much of the population is busy keeping up with the Joneses, getting the newest gadgets, upgrading a car, a house, a spouse...there are too many distractions in the world, period. I think religions have a better shot at looking past those distractions. Then again, I think some religions are absolute crap :) In truth, I share most of your sentiment about religion, SG...it's just that I find one religion to be true.
  
  I just simply think that Jesus Christ offers freedom, and whatever "bondage" it takes to follow His lead, it is better to be yoked/paired with the Gospel than it is to be bonded to our own distractions, greed, and selfishness. I believe we serve some kind of master, or knowledge in this life - usually it's either a deity, a school of thought, or ourselves. Can certain people be so sure that no god can exist if that god is invisible? Again, I can't see your brain, SG...but I assume it exists.
  
  As much as I love being stealthily accused of attributing every unanswered question of existence as evidence for God, I will simply hold to what I said before: we didn't put ourselves here, nor did we create the Earth to live on. We can only manipulate matter and materials we were already given, by nature or deity...and it's NOT far-fetched to think that something as complex as a planet could have been created. It's outside our realm of understanding, but that doesn't make it untrue.
  
  In fact, I do indeed hope there is a greater power, one greater than our knowledge, because our knowledge has never fully protected us from forces of nature. And I indeed hope there is a power greater than nature as well, something not so dangerous and unpredictable.
  
  But I look at human greed and selfishness and when I'm honest with myself, I also have to consider that I want a higher power that holds me accountable and convicts me to take positive action when I find myself sitting on the fence.
  
  Without experiencing God with five senses, or not being able to test Him in a lab, I can only look at the Bible, and line that up with my own life and with the people and world around me to see if it makes any sense. And it does, more than SG gives it credit for (actually, you give it zero credit, but that doesn't offend me).
  
  I believe that one truth must exist, whatever it is. One thing that reaches all people, not just the educated and well-to-do. But also the poor, the downtrodden. I see genuine faith as Jesus Christ as the answer, not so much the whole Christian church, much of which is about the corruption and stifled freedom that many frequently cite. Christianity is a tough thing to follow, but it is your choice to make, not a loss of freedom. I don't believe I've lost anything by being a Christian that I would regret or miss at the end of my life.
  
  SG, you are pretty young...we're around the same age..and yet you have a burning fire inside you to denounce religion. I don't need to ask if you find that worthwhile, I know that already. When you find yourself on your deathbed and reflect in your life, years from now (hopefully), will it be a worthwhile life's work, to denounce belief? Don't answer in a post, it's a rhetorical question, just think about it.
  
  Lastly - I dunno exactly where religion should be in schools, society, etc. All I know is that if people take the same conclusions and present it the same way you do, SG, we will have a much-grown open hostility toward religion, and not everyone will be as intellectual about it as you, bro.
  

• StupidGenius said on Jul 22, 2008....

  Lid - I dont have a burning fire inside me to denounce religion I just challege people when they make statements as if they were fact. When someone says, thank god, he saved my little boy from that tsunami (even tho everyone else died) then I feel the need to challenge that. When someone says "God created us all" I feel the need to chellenge it. This site is for discussion, it just so happens that the majority of the time I spend here is spent chellenging religious statements. Its not my life work lol if it was then I would be Getting paid thousands to do the lecture curcuit in america etc.

  On my death bed I will mostly be feeling sad bedause of all the loved ones ill leave behind, but, I will also be exited to see whether I was right or wrong.

  Death is either the start of an adventure of the end of one.

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 22, 2008....

  "Religion has no meaningfull place is a logical free thinking society, It has no place in schools and it has no value as a guide to living a good life. We lived without religion and we have lived with religion, it has no worthwhile effect on humanity infact I would argue that it has a negative effect and so my feeling is that we would be better off without it."
  
  You stated that as fact, SG. You say you don't have a "burning fire inside" you to denounce religion, but it's the centerpiece of just about everything I've heard you say :) It almost comes across as a mixed message, dude. Maybe a burning fire isn't quite the right fit, but when you say you spend the majority of the time challenging religious statements, you clearly have some kind of affinity for denouncing religion.
  
  I agree about the lecture circuit, haha...we already have christopher hitchens and sam harris, among others.
  
  Apart from the evangelism and quilt-spewing and threats of hellfire, I wonder what your view will be on your deathbed. Will it be fear of the unknown? The aforementioned sadness of leaving loved ones behind? Stuff like that. Now let me put on the God hat. My guess is He would honor the noble and good decisions you made to help others, to love your lady and kid(s), things like that.
  
  I'm not trying to build a false bridge when I say that I share much of your disdain for organized religion, SG. While it's good to build  rapport with others of another faith, sometimes you hear what people did in th name of religion and it makes me/you pissed. What the hell are christians doing bombing abortion clinics? Why is Islamic law so quick to put to death any of those who leave their religion? Why does Jenna Elfman go nuts at a Scientologist-skeptic on the street and accuse him of being a baby-raper? Why is the Pope revered so much, his appearance so influential, when Catholicism lines its pockets and watches its youth parishioners get molested? How can one denomination look at something so different than another denomination, claiming to know whether someone is saved or not depending on their belief on one issue? Any issue?
  
  Whew...I feel better getting all that out.
  
  I do agree and believe in the idea that death brings a few adventure. If this life is all there is to existence, as a human being I'd be kind of bummed if that life was robbed by tragedy, by chronic illness, by abuse, imprisonment, persecution, and the like. If one or all of them plagued me, to the point where I felt my life was somehow wasted, I would want something better.
  
  
  

• StupidGenius said on Jul 22, 2008....

  We have discussions on religion, I give you my point of view. It no stronger than my views on social equality, prison system or famin in africa its simply the discussion we have the most. My stance is that religion should be challenged wherever it claims to be truth. It is not a special subject that should be treated any differently than if me and you were discussing any of the other fore mentioned topics.

  People find it offensive when you quetion their faith but people of faith need to know that just because you say it is true dosnt mean it is, that is why when I make a statement I am ready to back it up wth evidence and fact and if im not ready then I stay quiet.

  On my death bed I will not be scared, It is my time and that is it. I will be worried that my son has a good life and that my wife has one also but on my death bed their is nothing I can do to change what I have done, What I have done in my life is what I am, what I have done shaped my life and made me who I am. If you have suffered and had a bad time in life then you have every right to feel like you got a rough deal but remember their are always those less fortunate and that compared to an ant who lives for a day and then gets stepped on you had actually had a life and a chance to experiance all around you.

  The pope is a normal guy, he should be treated as such. The catholic faith (and all others) reminds me of Animal Farm that famouse book. In religion all are equal as all humanity supposedly was created by god, yet humanuty dictates that some are more equal than others.

  Dont rely on god to lead your life for you, dont rely on him when you dont know what to do because the manual he supposedly got people to write is frankly outdated and no better than a stephen king horror story.

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 22, 2008....

  lol...back up the train, SG. I don't particularly disagree with any of your last post or anything, except the last sentence of course. You grossly underestimate the influence of the Bible. Do you say that kind of stuff for shock value? See the thing is, you say intellectual things and then make offhand comments that are disrespectful. I know you well enough to know you're not intentional about stuff like that, but I know enough to tell when you say something disrespectful.
  Saying there's no God isn't disrespectful, sharing your opinion isn't either...but comparing the Bible to a Stephen King horror story is. Adjust your debating strategy man...I'm extending an olive branch and you're readying your bazooka round :)

• kelly said on Jul 22, 2008....

  "we already have christopher hitchens and sam harris, among others. "
  
  
  It's not enough.  :-)  I think it's possible that with more like them we could be on the verge of a new age of enlightenment.  A birth of intellectualism, reason  and scientific curiosity.  It would be fabulous.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2008....

  Lid, If I criticised your belief that your favourite sports team was going to win a very important cup etc and said that your team was rubbish and gave you good factual reason to back that statement up then im quite sure you wouldn’t be that offended, you would simply give your reason for thinking the opposite.

  This is the problem, I see religion as no different to any other discussion we could have about anything. Frankly if people are going to treat it as something that shouldn’t be criticised then those people will have a big problem in the world today because more and more people are challenging religion and the bible

  The horror of the Old Testament I think is allot scarier that any Steven king book for one simple reason, some people actually believe it is true.

  I don’t make off hand comments, I think about what I write. I don’t write things for shock value either. Everything I say clearly illustrates my point of view.

  SG

• madstorm said on Jul 23, 2008....

  Hey Guys... I just got text software to do a word count of this discussion... there are...

  51 A4 pages...

  23,648 words

  652 paragraphs

  2,317 lines

  I was wondering if anyone is any clearer after all that? ...

  Life, the Universe is one undivided entity but the mind & senses create an illusion of self, the 'I' or 'me' & from that we observe Life as separate from 'me'. Reality is to become aware that what the self observes is not separate from what it observes. It is the difference between subjective & objective awareness. Life, the Universe consists of matter... and matter is Atoms consisting of protons, neutrons & electrons. There is no hydrogen proton, a proton is a proton & can form any form of matter. Therefore there is no 'I' or anything personal in matter. The human body is matter & matter does not die, it merely rearranges it's atomic structure to form other matter. So the carbon in me will become the carbon of a tree, the calcium will become the shell of a crab... there is no such thing as death because all matter is alive.

  'God' as interpreted by religion does not exist. Religion originates in our awareness that we are dependent on nature for our survival & our fear of death.

  One thing is for sure... to destroy nature, the very thing we need for survival is stupid...

• StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2008....

  Im clear, have been all the way, intesting count tho lol

  SG

   

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2008....

  Yeah SG, I know what you mean about the sports analogy. Where it falters (as all analogies do) is that religion is a life choice...while some regard their sports fanaticism as "religion" anyways, the simple fact is that when you attack someone's beliefs upon which they see the world, we can't be surprised if they react negatively.
  
  One thing that I have come to learn is that you would rather risk offending the religious than compromise your point of view. This is something I risk doing on a different level, but I also emphasize building bridges. Your view does not.
  
  The issue is not challenging religion, it's challenging religion with RESPECT. What does that mean? Simple...people are more apt to listen when you sense they genuinely respect their point of view, even if you disagree. You, SG, are a bull in a china shop, and I think that hurts what you say - in the end, your point makes sense, but it's brought about in such stubborn and uncompromising terms that it doesn't paint a desirable picture for atheism at all. If I were on the fence about religion, I'd see little to sway me toward atheism from your demeanor.
  
  One person sees spirituality as hogwash since it's not based in fact. Another sees spirituality as unattainable through booklearning and scientific proof.
  
  Personally, I believe that religiosity will exist through the ending of the world, whenever that will be. If not deities, then people. I don't think there needs to be an official church, mosque, or monastery in order to worship people like the Pope, L. Ron Hubbard, or Mick Jagger. Worship is whenever people have a focused object of adoration and praise. It's not having to be in a building, or having the object be an unseen god. For that reason, people will always worship something they love that has power and good things/incentive for them to believe.
  
  The question is, is there anything in that whole train of thought that's actually worth worshiping? And that's the difference between us, SG...I find one person actually worth the worship, and that's Jesus Christ. Not the church, not the theological debates, not the years of guilt, threats of hellfire, sexual repression, not the Crusades, ultraconservatism, a theocracy, or other false ideas or stains upon the Church. I'm reserving worship for only Christ, and although you do not respect those reasons, you could do a better job of respecting ME despite the fact that our religious views are dissimilar.
  

• StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2008....

  I don’t respect religion, its controlling, divides, judgemental, hypocritical and full of people that are just in it for the money it generates as a business.  

  You can’t separate Jesus and the church because Jesus is a product of the church, he is a product of the religion you follow which in turn was responsible for spreading the fable of Jesus. If it were not for the church you wouldn’t know anything about Jesus. Gradually people are coming to realise the weakness of the church and what it really is and that is the argument I hear the most now "I don’t believe in the church or the bible but I do believe in Jesus".

  You are cherry picking what you want out of your religion and discarding that which is clearly wrong.  

  It’s your life and you are free to live it as you chose... or are you?  

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2008....

  My point here is, whether I was cherrypicking or not, I think you'd have me pegged for something that's inaccurate. That's the flaw in your view, man...there's no room for dialogue with religion. Of course you'll think I'm hoodwinked by millennia-old machinations of the organized church.
  Did you know that most churchgoers don't even tithe?
  Besides SG, I can separate myself from the worst of the Christian church, just as I can separate you from Britons who want England to be dominated by Islam. I don't pass guilt by association on you. Can you return the favor? Or would you have me bear the brunt of your bombastic claims as if I were singularly responsible for all the evils the church has committed?
  Remember, Jesus separated Himself from the Pharisees and the chief priests of His day because they had gotten it wrong concerning God. Don't you see? Your accusations falter because you don't know enough about that which you lambast.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 24, 2008....

  Lid I never said you were responsible for anything bad the church had done. The only thing you are guilty of in my eyes is perpertuating a myth everytime you speak about god or jesus as if you know them to exist for a fact.

  Lets try something new

  I am God

  Now prove im not

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 24, 2008....

  You never said it...but the implication rests on you because of the manner with which you speak. You use a jackhammer when a shovel would do.
  As for me perpetuating a myth...you are pretty outspoken about your disbelief in a God you can't see or test. The way you go about it is like a tiger mauling a mouse...you see no consequences, so you go at it hard. All I can say to that is that if you're wrong about God, you will know the consequences. Not even Hell, but missing out on opportunities to learn and grow as a person.
  Hmm...as for you being God, that's a good question. What defines a god in the first place? Omnipotence? Omniscience? Omnipresence? The ability to create matter and forms from nothing?
  On a more personal level, how does a god relate to human beings? Does he/she/it appear to us? Speak to us? Live in us? All of the above?
  And is a god a "good", loving god? Or are they vengeful, malevolent, and uncaring toward any plight humans have?
  That's just an overview :)
  Well SG, I don't see you meeting much of those criteria. On the other hand, there are religions that teach that we can be our own gods, either literally or indirectly.
  So to give a tongue in cheek answer to your statement, I figure if you were God you would have either blessed me for stepping up to bat for you so often, or you would have struck me with lightning for arguing with you so much over this blog :)

• StupidGenius said on Jul 24, 2008....

  lets continue this experiment, its getting interesting...

  "I am god lidstrom, I dont need to strike you down with lightning, I am testing you to see the real you. I have no need to create anything in this world as I have done it all already. what you see is what I created. I am more powerfull than you can imagine and if you dont believe then when you die I will send you to a very very horrible place deep underground where you will be tortured for eternity. You must make a choice lidstrom, chose to follow me or follow your own path. My path leads to an amazing place where your every wish will be taken care of and you will be surrounded by lost loved ones and filled with love. If you take yourown path it leads to certain pain and suffering! There are people who have written about me, they have all come up with different stories but the message is the same, believe in me or face your doom. I want an answer right now lidstrom"

  Well, what your answer... am I god or not?

• kelly said on Jul 26, 2008....

  Actually, I just converted.  I do believe that SG is god.  ;-)

• StupidGenius said on Jul 26, 2008....

  LOL Kelly!

  I can prove I am god about as much as anyone else can prove I am not. That is why we have so many cults with retards saying they are god and getting people to kill themselves.

  Still waiting for lid to prove im not

   

• somethingunUSual said on Jul 26, 2008....

  Even if "god" appeared and said he was "God" and performed miracles, it still would not prove that it is God. It could be an alien trying to fuck with us. Also, in a universe where evolution works, why couldn't God be part of it. Maybe god is on the way, evolving, and isn't quite here yet?

• kelly said on Jul 27, 2008....

  "Maybe god is on the way, evolving, and isn't quite here yet?"
  
  
  Er, OK.  So I guess then in that case we could definitively say that god did not create the universe.  By the way, I'm pretty sure SG is evolving as I type this and that he is indeed the god you might be expecting.  So far, nobody has proven that he isn't, so my money is on SG being god.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 27, 2008....

  Kelly,

  You will be blessed for your faith. Those who doubt will suffer. You will have to wait until you die im afraid kelly because In my wisdom I decided not to help anyone while they are alive, even if they happen to be a 1 year old baby suffering from aids. Still it is funny how some people still claim that I saved them even tho I let the other 500,000 die. Anyway, ive got more watching to do. Its hard work monitoring all this suffering. See you in heaven kelly...

  100 virgins sound ok?

  God

• kelly said on Jul 27, 2008....

  "100 virgins sound ok?"
  
  
  Now we're talkin'.  That other god only offers 72!  :-)
  
  
  Excellent points in there, by the way.

• somethingunUSual said on Jul 28, 2008....

  Suffering for my doubts....wow, this God is really a mental case. Sadistic to say the least. Have you noticed how mentally messed up the God of the Old Testament is? He's like some fucked up tyrant who needs parenting lessons and anger management classes, not to mention getting a grip on the whole megalomania "worship me" complex. Why can't he just come down and play?
   
  Let's face it. God is a gigantic puzzle and we are tiny pieces of it. The puzzle is presently lying on the floor in a big mess. We're gradually assembling it.
   
   

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 28, 2008....

  Alrighty, somehow my work comp wasn't havin' any of the Soulcast, but now I'm back in the game!
  
  I think in my last response, what got lost was the notion that you're not god, SG, because you possess none of the qualities a known god would have. I've heard every one of the "excellent points" kelly alluded to in your posts, especially concerning the tyrannic and sadistic nature of God, esp. the Old Testament. Let me say that your fun experiment in playing God says nothing of the accounts of humanity's disobedience bringing about the punishment that you deem tyrannical...as well as the account of Jesus Christ sent to save mankind from absolute stupidity, amongst other things.
  
  But hey, I know your position, no use beating that dead horse. :)
  
  Here's a genuine question that's just a yes or no for you, SG (and for anyone else out there)...were you at any point religious? And no, I won't take your answer and run with it like a misinformed maniac.

• kelly said on Jul 28, 2008....

  "Here's a genuine question that's just a yes or no for you, SG (and for anyone else out there)...were you at any point religious?"
  
  
  What could that possibly matter?

• StupidGenius said on Jul 29, 2008....

  "what got lost was the notion that you're not god, SG, because you possess none of the qualities a known god would have."

  Everything that is written in the bible about what god or jesus did was me, I am god come to earth. I dont think you can tell me that im not god as you had no idea what I would look like, sound like or act like. I repeat, you cant tell me im not god as you have no proof im not.

  Prove im not god

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 29, 2008....

  Really now...you're hinging all further discussion on proof that you're not God? Come on! :) I know where this goes...just because you don't listen doesn't prove you right, my friend.
  
  Short answer: none of us is God.
  
  How do we know? Well, it's a matter of human ability. In today's world, there are physical and supernatural "rules" by which humanity lives by. The way a human being is created, formed, nurtured, and matured makes a difference on that human's potential, but there are limits to what we can do. We cannot fly on our own power, we cannot see or be everywhere at once, we cannot create matter from out of nowhere...we can only attempt such things using materials that are already here.
  
  So in the vast pantheon of religions and gods, abrahamic or mythological, you can't be God, SG. You can't even be A god, because as a human you are limited to what your own body and this planet can allow you to do. And this puts us all on a level playing field.
  
  Truthfully, the Bible also explains the nature of God, and that is not you. You could say the Bible is biased toward God, but then again we could say a driver's manual is biased toward obeying the speed limit and we still dislike and disobey it from time to time.
  
  That's the rest I'll say on the matter.
  
  As for my question...sometimes understanding one another better is actually more constructive than endless debate. That's why I asked the question, kelly.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 29, 2008....

  Lid

  You don’t know I cant fly, you don’t know I cant perform miracle, you don’t know I cant change water to wine and you certainly cant say that gods nature is a certain way because the way he is described in the old testament is very different from the new.

  In Summary you can’t say in all certainty that im not god, you can’t know for sure. At least admit that there is no way to actually prove I am not god without testing me on my mystical abilities.

  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 29, 2008....

  Ok "God", fly on over here and turn water into wine. There's vineyards nearby if you need any help :) If you can make it by noon pacific time, that'd be great. I'll be expecting you, and if you don't show up, oh well :)
  
  By the way, of course God interacts with us different from Old to New Testaments...He established a new covenant with humanity through Jesus' actions. So whereas God might show up and deem you or me unfit to live and have us put to death, per the Old Testament, because of Jesus we have judgment reserved when we die. So basically, if all this Christian stuff is true, you're wasting your days browbeating the religious and banking on the idea that God isn't there. And hey, if you're right, I'm wasting my time bettering mankind by serving others and leaving them to make their own choice about God.
  
  Anyhoo, when you're done with your experiment, how about my question?

• StupidGenius said on Jul 29, 2008....

  Oh so you challenge me to prove I am god, well do you challenge who you believe to be god? when you were reading the bible did you get down on your knees and ask him to turn your house into a mansion? did you ask him to put a million dollars into your bank account? I bet you didnt, yet you have no more proof that he is god than I. You are taught not ask for proof from god so therefore you cant ask the same of me, you must simply have faith that I am god as you do already in the god of the bible.
   
  I rest my case!
   
  SG

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 29, 2008....

  Haha...and yet the question remains unanswered.
  I've seen people healed of various ailments, either as they were prayed for or afterward. I've seen cancer in remission. I've seen people given no chance to heal walk upright. I've witnessed down and out people who have had their lives restored beyond what they were able to do themselves. Further, there are those I trust that have more stories of seeing blindness removed, hearing restored, and deformed limbs made whole.
  So the question here isn't what my proof is, it's whether you would ever acknowledge it.
  But honestly, yes, SG, I doubt. It's a healthy part of faith that lots of religious people are too afraid to admit to. To them, faith means never having doubts. Well, the people God used for great things in the Bible were never exactly spotless. Gideon had trouble believing God would help him overthrow his enemies. Moses stuttered his words and doubted he could free the Israelites from Pharoah. Even Jesus struggled with the knowledge of his own death. So there are many examples in the Bible of people struggling with faith and needing confirmation.
  There are things that I wish to see, but if God knows what's best for me, I'd rather He stay silent than give me what I want at the wrong time. For example, if I want to be rich and famous...God can grant that, but He won't make it happen instantly if I'm not ready to be responsible with my fame and fortune. If I squander it all in excess, I only join the legions of rich, unhappy people. Howard Hughes? Kurt Cobain? Elvis Presley? Heh...Citizen Kane? There's more than them, obviously.
  Understand the nature of your request, SG...you want a mansion to spring out of a home? Of course it would help me out, but the real issue is, would God even do that? He's not a genie, SG. Asking to win the lottery or have money suddenly appear in your bank account is a prayer request that describes a complex theological term: stupid.
  So no, I'm not going to ask or "test" you the way I would God. And I know you're incapable of meeting me for lunch at noon here in SoCal. So your case is worthless. You just wasted your time, dude.
  And, I think I'm going to bow out of this post, an exit that emulates others before it: a mocking, bullheaded atheist does nothing to dispel their own stereotype, and no one is the better for the discussion they bring. I won't waste my time trying to teach someone what they don't want to know.
  And that's not talking smack, SG. There's real benefit in at least considering that God is better than who you make Him out to be. Take care of that family of yours, and be thankful there's not many earthquakes in britain...we just had a 5.7 quake a little while ago, and we're making sure everyone's safe. I wouldn't mind spending the day in London after all that :)

• StupidGenius said on Jul 29, 2008....

  Ha ha

  So basically, lid cant prove im not god, he can however tell me yarn after yarn about people being healed etc but there is one thing missing from that equation of healing... God himself. God was not present, god did not appear and heal people and for every person he can find that claims to have been healed by god I can find two that have been healed by normal everyday doctors or specialists or professionals using alternative medicine.

  God does not appear, he does not hug you when you need comfort, he does not offer you a shoulder to cry on, he does not fix your broken leg, he does not save your drowning child from a tsunami. He simply doesn’t exist or he does exist and does nothing to help those he created.

  Seeing as there is no factual, scientific, logical or evidential proof for gods existence I simply state the obvious. He does not exist. Move on, live your life think freely, you do not need a god, all you need is yourself and those you love. You dictate your fate, you manifest your own destiny you are in control and it really is that simple.

  SG

• kelly said on Jul 30, 2008....

  "Short answer: none of us is God."
  
  
  No, according to your reasoning you are bound to prove that SG is not god.  Here's another thing for you to think about.  SG really IS god and he's testing you right now.  You think he's just another human being but he is really god.  Testing you.  If it's up to non-superstitious people (according to you) to prove that god does not exist it is equally up to you to prove that SG is not god.
  
  
  In the meantime I'm lighting a few candles and praying to SG to make my boss give me a raise.  You know, just in case.

• StupidGenius said on Jul 31, 2008....

  Kelly, you have worshipped especialy hard so I will use my power just to help you, there were some kids dying in hospital I was going to help but I cant be bothered with all that so your bonus will arrive just as if it were a coincidence....er...its not a coincidence, I made it happen.

  SG (GOD)

   

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