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Jesus Christ

SeanRenaud posted on Jul 03, 2007 | views: 2446 | Tags: Jesus, Theology, belief, christianity, religiou, faith of our fathers, zen, delusion
http://www.soulcast.com/shiningstar/
 
The first thing that absolutely must be established about Jesus that we are only faced with two options when it comes to that man.  He was either the son of the Living God, or he was the worst liar in the history of the planet.  If you do not believe Jesus to be the Son of God, then you must accuse him of being the originator of a hoax so large that it has caused millions of deaths and literally shaped human history.
 
I would really like somebody to explain to me in sane terms what third option has somehow been invented here?


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Comments

  • bloc said on Jul 03, 2007....
    Did Jesus tell you personally that he was the son of god? The third option is that the story was exaggerated or changed over the large amount of time since he was alive. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 03, 2007....
    Ok, that the Bible is a lie.  That is a third option that I suppose can be taken into acount but at that point you can't use it as a reference point much either.
  • bloc said on Jul 03, 2007....
    i don't ;)
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 03, 2007....
    Yeah I know.
  • fearing said on Jul 03, 2007....
    Sean - which do you believe?  Just curious.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 03, 2007....
    Either that he was a liar or that the stories of him are GREATLY exaggerated.  The thing was that I've been in several debates with the individual I linked here that somehow tries to take religion, include a God that isn't Jehovah, say that Jesus taught us to ignore the teachings of Jehovah (the God of the Old Testament)
     
    He's terribly confused and confusing.  Yet interesting and hell he hasn't blocked me yet which is always a good sign for people that I'm debating with.
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Jul 03, 2007....
    I just want to point out that during the time of early Christianity, before Constantine legalized it in the Edict of Milan, there were several mystery cults with several sons of gods.  Several martyrs, too.  Christianity was not unique in this manner.  What was indeed peculiar about Christianity was that it took an ancient and secret tradition and made it available/accessible to the general public. 

    It's only when it became acceptable in Roman society that it was able to piggy-back Rome's influence throughout the Mediterranean and shaped Western civilization into what it is today.  One could even say the foundations of such. 

    To dismiss the text that sets the foundation of this faith as "dribble" is frankly, fallacious. 
  • kelly said on Jul 04, 2007....
    "To dismiss the text that sets the foundation of this faith as "dribble" is frankly, fallacious. "

    I completely agree.  The word is "drivel." 
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Jul 04, 2007....
    Sorry, I stand corrected.  
  • silverwhisper said on Jul 04, 2007....
    sean, another example exists, that his followers falsified things after the death of jesus and fabricated the resurrection. what followers of a cause will do in its name is a recurring horror story through history.

    i don't believe that's the case here, though.

    ed
  • RollingC said on Jul 04, 2007....
    Well.... to me being the " worst " liar means that nobody believes me so that's not the correct wording in my opinion.
     I've heard say that Jesus was the best salesman in the history of the human race as what He was selling 2000yrs ago is still being bought today.      :>)

    And I'm one of the buyers.
    Rc
  • boyzmom said on Jul 04, 2007....
    I would say that Jesus was more than the son of the Living God- the father, son and holy ghost are one. So the holy ghost who is part of God and Jesus, touched the writers of the Bible to make it truth. God made Jesus' teachings truthful (by allowing miracles). The Holy spirit lead the followers to spread the news. So if you think it is a hoax or something that followers did to cover up any indications that they were following a false messiah, then you would have to believe that such widespread delusions can only be done with supernatural forces like God and the holy spirit. I mean there is no other explanation for the belief in Jesus that happens throughout generations for thousands of miles from where he originated. Some are lead to believe by the holy spirit and some are not regardless of whether they go to church as a young person or not.
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 04, 2007....

    Did you all think I wouldn’t comment on a religion related topic??? lol

     

    I’m with bloc on this one.

     

    When ever someone says god does not exist there is always someone that says

     

    "God made Jesus' teachings truthful (by allowing miracles). The Holy Spirit led the followers to spread the news. So if you think it is a hoax or something that followers did to cover up any indications that they were following a false messiah, then you would have to believe that such widespread delusions can only be done with supernatural forces like God "

     

    Lets try this out...

     

    "I  [Insert own name here] am personally unable to think of any way in which [Insert phenomenon here] could have possibly happened, therefore god did it."

     

    ...Delusion...

     

    Natural selection people... I’m working on a blog about it.

     

  • ALIENated said on Jul 08, 2007.... 
    
Mark 3:29 
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of
an eternal sin. 

Holy Spirit = Jesus = God

I am afraid Jesus cannot save you from this one. Have a good time in hell. I hear
it is very hot ... for all eternity.
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 08, 2007....
    Alienated,
     
    Im not worried becaue god, hell, the holy spirit drinker etc exist only in the minds of the delusional. Hell is not a reality and so I have no fear of it.
     
    Criticising religion is only blashemey because the church wrote a get out clause to criticism. "If you criticise our delusion you will go to hell" or "If you question our delusion you will go to hell". What a load of tosh.
     
    SG
  • RollingC said on Jul 08, 2007....
    It really doesn't matter as long as your heart is in the right place.  Above all things God is forgiving and if you do the right thing (funny that the bible is full of the right rules) then you won't be eating tosh when your time comes.
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 08, 2007....
    You dont know who god is, you have never met him and you have never spoken to him. You cant prove he exists all you can do is simply cling onto your frail faith and hope that you have bet on the right horse. You cant prove any of what you call religion, you simply regurgitate old meaningless scripture.
  • RollingC said on Jul 08, 2007....
    I beg to differ Stupid... ehh genius...( sorry....couldn't help myself).
    I've had experiences that cannot be explained scientifically or logically.... does that count as knowing...or at least having met... God ?
    (read my first blogs)
    Rc
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 08, 2007....
    No more so than any other acid trip.
  • truthsayer said on Jul 09, 2007....
    Well, well, well.  At last, we meet again.  SeanR, I have a message for you, and although I know it is a hymn, I hope you know what it means.  It is always an act of faith and obedience, when the Lord tells me something for someone.  He said for me to tell you that we need to remember the 'faith of our fathers'.
     
    For me, personally, that means my grandparents...they pretty much raised me.  My parents were damaged by their secrets.  My grandparents were the ones that trained me up.  They tried to train my mother, but she wasn't interested.  They tried to train my older sibs...but they weren't interested.  Oh, my oldest brother looked like he was interested.  But he was one of those that boyzmom mentioned too...one raised in the church, but they missed the soul train.  That's another song, I know ; )
     
    I don't think I would pay too much mind to a guy/gal (SG) that has such a conflict obviously confessed in his nickname ; )  At least not about this topic.  : )
    I don't have anything against shining star either...I just don't interact very long with confusion.  I recognize it for what it is, and move on.
     
    But that's just my deal.  I have to.
     
    Remember the faith of our fathers SeanR.  I hope that doesn't confuse you : )  If it does, feel free to move on : )  No hard feelings, ever.
     
    Blessings,
     
    truthsayer 
     
     
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 10, 2007....

    Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

     


    10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
     
    9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
     
    8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
     
    7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
     
    6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
     
    5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
     
    4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering.  And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


    3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
     
    2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers.  You consider that to be evidence that prayer works.  And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
     
    1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

     

    these people need to wake up.

     

    SG

  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 10, 2007....
    IT's good to hear from you Truth, we may not agree on probably anything.  But I like you a lot and I missed you.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
    This is a good post. Lots of different opinions and some good dialogue, minus the pro-Christian holier-than-thou attitude and atheist cynicism being thrown around. Does anyone honestly think that modern history, our method of recording years, and the largest religion in the world (based on number of adherents) was based on a hoax? Further, the Gospels record the conspiracy set up by the Romans to attribute Jesus' resurrection as a hoax? And that it mentions that to this day, it's still the alibi used to explain how a dead man can live again? You can choose not to believe it if you want. What is funny to me is that God gave us all the free will to reject Him. We focus so much on what we are allowed to do and enjoy, and we have more freedoms in America than many other nations...so what is arguably the greatest and most defining gift that God gave us is what we utilize to reject Him. If nonchristians only knew how silly that makes their position sound. One thing also is that the Bible pretty much has unbelievers nailed. It explains their behavior, mannerisms, speech, how they live life, and all sorts of things. And by their own unbelief, they prove what is said of them in the Bible. Some might say that Christians need to wake up from such delusions, but believing in Jesus, the ultimate embodiment of benevolence, is much more rewarding than trusting in a job, a fat bank account, head knowledge/education, and even other people. Because all of that can fall through in one way or another. Everyone you meet will let you down in some way or another, money can run out, anyone can get laid off from a job, and there's almost always someone smarter than you. I don't believe Jesus was a hoax. There are tons of false religions, not the least of which is the religion of self-importance, and any false religion gets its appeal from taking a grain of truth and twisting it to its will. Islam regards Jesus as an important prophet - but the man Himself said that we can get to God ONLY through Him (Jesus)...not Muhammed, not Allah, or what-have-you. Islam can't put Jesus in a box, and no matter what we try to say to understand/dismiss Him, neither can we. He IS either the savior of the world and thus the most important figure in all of history, or he is a liar, the greatest liar in history. Many liars get the attention they crave, but all lies eventually get exposed. It's been a few thousand years since He walked the Earth, people...how long before we realize that there IS no lie in Jesus to expose?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 10, 2007....
    Yes lots of people think he was a hoax, a liar or a great exaggeration myself included.  The thing is that we can't disprove it anymore than you can disprove the flying spaghetti monster.
  • Bordy said on Jul 10, 2007....
    Oh SeanRenaud, I never thought I'd see you use the Flying Spaghetti Monster line. I know where you come from on this, since I think the last 5 years or so have taught me at least alittle about you...but I just hate that damn line!
  • silverwhisper said on Jul 10, 2007....
    bordy, do you know sean from the same place i do?

    ed
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
    Haha...flying spaghetti monster...

    Is it enough to say the flying spaghetti monster never had 4 Gospels written about him/her/it, nor did it change the course of history? The evidence of Jesus is there...question is, do we look for it enough to actually make an educated decision?

    More to the point, believing in Jesus can bring you community with millions of other believers, a life that is more vibrant, and an eternity in Heaven with Him. Believing in the flying spaghetti monster will get a good laugh. I'll take the former, but the latter makes me hungry for Italian food.
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 10, 2007....
    Flying spaghetti monster is a perfect illustration of how rediculous religion is. Christians, muslims, jews etc all believe that their religion is the one true religion and isnt it funny how all of them in some way discredit the other.
     
    Religious people discount thousands of other religions that have sprung up through history and say they are false. What makes your religion the right one. You have simply chosen to believe it.
     
    I dont care if people dont like what I say. I speak from the heart and thats all I can do.
     
    Religion, faith in a higher being or creator and the arrogant notion that your religion is the right one is a complex and elaborate hoax that will eventualy become clear to you when you die.
     
    SG
  • bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
    @lid
    I think you are making some shaky arguments. The idea that popularity, the number of people that believe, is proof of God is not logical. 

    You can't make an "educated" decision to believe. Faith is totally outside the realm of reason (i.e. education).
  • truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

    I missed you too SeanR.  I had to come looking for you ; )  I got real busy with work; had more pain lately, from my horse/saddle mishap in December; got caught up in private messages; and a took on a summer section of physiology and anatomy, and a science based exercise program...oh yeah, and I finally found a church that I think can handle me ; )  Good to see you too friend.  : )

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

    Hello Bordy.  So, you and Sean are old friends?  Nice to meet you, and welcome, if you are new to soulcast.

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

    Lidstrom82:  You were one of the first people I subscribed to, in Dec. 2006 or Jan. 2007; but, I guessed that you had left for a while and eventually, I unsubscribed.  I really like your style, and your testimony, and I have since resubscribed...at least, I tried to.  I have noticed, that sometimes, every now and then, it doesn't seem to work.  Don't know why.  Anyway, greetings, and welcome back, if you were away.

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

    SG, your test doesn't work for me.  Sorry.  I noticed that you said that you speak from your heart friend...but, your heart sounds so angry.  I am sorry for that.

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....
    Hi bloc:
     
    Actually, we are educated before we believe, and we are educated, in a new and better way, after we believe.  Faith is an awesome force and resource.  Quantum faith is even better ; )
     
    truth
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
    SGenius, I admire your tenacity...not sure if that is the right word, but basically that you doggedly defend your position. That takes serious determination.

    For your part, you make it clear that I am believing in delusional concepts and beliefs and it will become apparent when I die that there is no God or Heaven as a reward for living a life that was faithful to the Bible's teachings and Jesus' life. Is that pretty much the gist?

    What I'm called to do is to pray for those who have a different outlook, to avoid divisive, derogatory talk. I've been critical of your words in the past, and I do believe your points come across with sarcasm and quite a bit of bluntness. Speaking from the heart is a good thing, but sometimes I think restraint and a spoken respect for those you debate with will save a lot of tension. Of course, Christians you've debated with in the past haven't all been restrained either.

    Bloc, I am 100% convinced my arguments aren't shaky, and you can deem them as such. I think that you consistently see flaws in my points, in this post and those previous, and some are errors I failed to see.

    I ask that you both understand one thing: there are those who take great care in learning about religion and what to believe. You are wrong to assume that every decision to believe is uneducated. For instance, I've looked at other religions, and made the choice to become a Christian because of Jesus, not because of religious tradition or lack of other options. And I'm not the only one to research what I believe. Do I have questions that I grapple with? Of course. But I don't blindly take in what is said by anyone claiming the title of Christian.

    Popularity isn't everything, bloc, you are correct. But taking into account how many Christians there have been in our own history, that is a GIGANTIC amount of people said to believe delusional, uneducated things. That's not even including the billions of other adherents to other religions.

    But perhaps one other point must be made: The Bible serves to be given to all people, at all levels of understanding. The great truth of the world shouldn't only be to those who can afford education, but for those less fortunate as well. All human beings need love and respect to thrive, as Jesus taught. It is said that God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Why? Because those who think they know it all, or champion a cause and hold it over others, are actually buying into a wisdom that doesn't always account for loving others.

    Example: a Christian giving food to a homeless man and sharing the acceptance that Jesus has for them, is going to do a great deal more than telling him about the finer points of natural selection and carbon dating. On the flipside, a noted scholar who can explain the inner workings of the human body has little answers for the failing health of their spouse. But trusting that a loving God is waiting for their spouse on the other side offers a peace that logic can't offer. So yes, while my arguments appear shaky, the reverse is true in my eyes.

    And for the record, there are many people less forgiving than I am when you imply that they have shaky arguments, made an uneducated decision to believe, that their knowledge of the existence of God is illogical, or that religious belief is delusional. Be true to yourselves by all means...but speak the truth in love, not merely to assail religious beliefs. Acknowledge respect for others, and not just point out cracks in their perceived arguments. I say that to both of you, SGenius and bloc, because while your points are educated, the way they come across can outright suck to someone not included in your worldview.
  • truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....
    SG, I am sorry for all of the Christians that you have met, that may have helped you form those opinions too.  Really sorry.  Gotta go man.  Later folks,  truthsayer
  • bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
    "that is a GIGANTIC amount of people said to believe delusional, uneducated things."

    How many americans in years past believed it made perfect sense to keep slaves? That's the first thing that comes to mind, but I'm sure I could think of many other examples of massive numbers of people believing something that is wrong.

    On the issue of an "educated" decision. I may have used the term "educated" in a confusing way. What I meant is that faith is beyond logic and reason. 

    "I say that to both of you, SGenius and bloc, because while your points are educated, the way they come across can outright suck to someone not included in your worldview."

    That's a two way street.

    " If nonchristians only knew how silly that makes their position sound. One thing also is that the Bible pretty much has unbelievers nailed. It explains their behavior, mannerisms, speech, how they live life, and all sorts of things. And by their own unbelief, they prove what is said of them in the Bible."

    How do you think that comes across?
  • truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....
    C'mon bloc...it comes across like a two way street...like both of you just said, but, from different sides, or directions on the street : )
  • bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
    show me where i made anything close to the insult I quoted from him! The audacity to insult me that boldly then to complain about me is beyond ironic.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
    How do I think that comes across? Well, take that up with the author of the Bible :)

    Besides, would you have that point to contend if I didn't point out the abrasiveness of your words first? Just letting you know that when it goes the other way, it's not a fun thing. I don't say that to be mean, but there's much you can do to promote discussion rather than nitpick another's points.
  • bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
    scroll up my friend. you said that before i nitpicked any of your points. you may want to take a good look in the mirror before you complain about such a thing again.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 10, 2007....
    Slavery does make perfect sense.  It might be the most moral thing but it seems to make economic sense.  Hell if you think about it our current system of debts, particularly in legal suits is defacto slavery.  What is a slave but someone who works for another with nothing in return?  Seems to me that OJ Simpson is a slave.  (Wether or not he deserves it is no where near the point)
     
    To everybody, I try to remain civil, particularly with Truth, and bloc.  I'll call ALIEN or Cam a fucktard in a heartbeat.  That said there is still a time when you have to call a spade a spade and stop entertaining the other side's opinion.  The world isn't flat, the sun doesn't revolve around the earth, the moon's not made of cheese, insanity isn't caused by demons, we evolved from lesser beings and there is a shit load of things we don't understand like why the fuck the universe hasn't collapsed in on itself yet or why gravity is so weak.  We can't move forward to find out these new things if we are still going round on these things that have been proven to such a degree that baring new information there is no good reason to discuss.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
    wow bloc, I'm not going to argue with you till I'm blue in the face. Thing is, you take offense to me calling a nonchristian's position silly (in that they take the gift of free will God gave them, and freely reject Him in response). Well, I've had to hear creation is delusional. But yes, it is a two way street. And I do apologize for the way it came across. What you must understand, however, is that the Bible is very clear in the situation of a nonbeliever. It is not favorable, but neither does it command vengeance on a nonchristian. In the end, I believe a nonchristian is worse off than a Christian. That may sound insulting to you, but if any one of us is wrong about ANYTHING, and it's pointed out to us, it's not going to feel too good. Surely after hearing more than enough nonchristian/agnostic/atheist viewpoints, you can afford to have your position deemed as "silly". It's not even an insult on you or your character, just your opinion. There's a difference. But ultimately, don't take my opinion or word for it. Look at the Bible itself and see what it says. I lived 17 years without God, and so I've seen both sides of the street, and being a Christian is definitely the better side of the road. Can any of us claim to have known both sides personally? For instance bloc, or anyone reading, have you ever been a Christian, or grew up in a Christian home? If so, did an experience with the church hurt you or make you bitter? If that's the case, who hurt you? Chances are it was someone who took the Bible and judged you. But oddly enough, people blame God for things that PEOPLE did to them. Why blame God when it was Joe Schmoe that told you your clothes were too inappropriate for church? Give God a break, people. It would be best to keep from having such short fuses when discussing opinions. As a Christian I've endured lots of ridicule. But I face that because it's not really me people attack, it's that I believe what God says. God is big enough to handle insults...but when I suggest a nonchristian's position is less than ideal, it's a direct insult. But truthfully, read the Bible and see where your life truly lies, because that's where my opinion is coming from. In particular, you're an intelligent person, bloc. If you took issue from my words, I mean it in all seriousness that you take it up with God's Word in the Bible. That's where I got it from, and that's what you are really taking offense to.
  • bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
    I didn't take offense. I found it funny that you condescend right out of the gate then complain later that someone did it to you. It wasn't offensive, it was boldly ironic and hypocritical. 
  • Bordy said on Jul 11, 2007....
    silverwhisper:
    I know seanrenaud from our days in the Marine Corps.
    Shoot, I thought at least *somebody* would have remembered my name, I was the one who convinced Sean to start posting here in the first place!
  • bloc said on Jul 11, 2007....
    I remembered :)
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 11, 2007....
    I remembered too!
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 11, 2007....
    Wow bloc, I find it extremely hard to talk to you.
  • silverwhisper said on Jul 11, 2007....
    sorry, bordy--it's been a long, long time, man!

    [hangs head in shame]

    ed
  • Bordy said on Jul 11, 2007....
    Damn right. And I may start posting here again, but don't want to have duplicate content with my real blog... then again, thats almost all tech stuff anyway.

    Nobody called, nobody stopped by, /sniff.
  • bloc said on Jul 11, 2007....
    hey bordy, I tried to send you a private message, but you have me blocked. 
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 11, 2007....

    I do get frustrated with religion and its followers, im only human after all. I speak from the heart. Because of this it is highly likely that people will be offended by my posts. To this end I am going to try to concentrate on my own blogs for a little while. I will try to make my stance on issues more clear. I will also try to explain why I have the views that I do. I hope those offended will read them even if it is just so that they may better understand my possition.

    My next to blogs will be titled (Something like)

    "Would we be moral without religious guidence?"

    and

    "The origin of religion"

    keep an eye out if interested.

    SG

  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 11, 2007....
    Thanks for blog ideas.  you forgot to copy write them, mwa haha haha!
  • silverwhisper said on Jul 11, 2007....
    SG: 1) yes, and 2) that should be interesting.

    ed
  • truthsayer said on Jul 11, 2007....
    Well bordy, I probably wasn't here when you were first here.  I haven't "known" SeanR all that long : )  But I just checked out your other blog site and I plan on showing it to my son.  He is the techno-guru of the family now ; )  But may I say, welcome back?  And perhaps you can post on both blog sites.  Thank you for your service to our country, and your protection of the likes of me, bordy.
     
    bloc, you sounded pretty shocked and offended to me...but, I realize this is just a fancier form of 'print media' : ) 
     
    lidstrom82, I have been on both sides of the road too.  Some of my most confusing and hurtful moments were at the hands, or more accurately, the mouths of professing Christians.  I have seen downright scandals too.  It might have shaken my faith, and sometimes, for short periods of time, it may have...but ultimately, just like the ridicule we receive from most nonbelievers, riducule and persecution only serve to strengthen my faith.  "What the enemy meant for harm..."  So, I hear you. 
     
    Bloc and Sean and a few others perhaps, know my take on their 'old arguments'.  I hope this discussion has helped them to see that there are indeed two sides, two plans, two influences, yes...but, that the Bible is available for all to see, read, and know; if they want to see 'our side'.  Few will really take you up on it though...I'm sure you already know that.  It cannot ever be fully understood without the Holy Spirit though.  The Spirit often will allow them to have some insights though, that help them to have one of those beautiful revelatory moments, intended to tell them...I am here, I understand you, and My arms are wide open.
     
    Frankly, I wondered if it was me, that you thought was a 'holier than thou' Christian : )  since I addressed you in a comment, and you either missed it, or ignored it.  I have a choice to make when I read the writings of Christians, and nonChristians alike...believers and unbelievers...and I choose not to be offended.    I still say, welcome back lidstrom82, and, I hear you.
     
    SG, I will see if the Spirit leads me to those blogs of yours ; )
     
    Hey bloc, wanna learn, or be educated about faith? ; )  I liked the way you restated your position much better friend.  : )
     
    Gotta run...I've got a blog to write!
     
    Love you guys...all of you.
     
    truthsayer 
     
     
     
  • bloc said on Jul 11, 2007....
    "bloc, you sounded pretty shocked and offended to me"

    I wasn't shocked by his insulting language towards me, that's normal in these debates. I was shocked that he would be so insulting then later complain that I was insulting him. The insult didn't bother me, but the complaint about me did :)
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

    People of religion cant handle criticism of their faith. The bible states...

    "You must kill those who worship another god."  Exodus 22:20

    "Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own.  Deuteronomy" 13:6-10

    "Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah."  Mark 6:11

    I’m not saying that people of faith go around murdering people because they don’t believe in god... wait... come to think of it.... many of them do. Ill quote historical examples of this if necessary.

    SG

  • RollingC said on Jul 17, 2007....
    Was that from a King James Version or from another ?
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....
    Pre king James.
     
    King James version says "He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
     
    SG
  • silverwhisper said on Jul 17, 2007....
    SG: um...the language usage looks distinctly too contemporary to be pre-KJV. are you sure you don't mean post-KJV?

    ed
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

    Yes sorry, I meant post.... funny though I was just reading some translations of 22:20. So many different versions when it comes to the translation... Is it possible that the bible started off talking about a man and his mates having a party of some kind? lol. Look at these...

    He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. King James Version 1611, 1769

    He who sacrifices to any god, except to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. New King James Version 1982 Thomas Nelson

    Anyone who sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed. New Living Translation 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

    I could go on... funny isn’t it. Oh and after all that I can’t remember where I found that quote, still message is the same.

    SG

  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
    You should know, SGenius, that in many Christian circles, the King James version is probably the most notorious for being a goofy translation. That one will probably give you the most cannon fodder, but anyone quoting it makes them sound like someone from the Tudor dynasty.

    You take instances of God's wrath through what Christians have done in history and conclude that such a God is not only fictional, but if He were real, He is aat times barbaric and jealous.

    If you get hot and bothered in discussions, just try creating a race of people that don't give you any credit and chase after other gods. That would test anyone's patience.

    One thing to understand is that in your points SGenius, human beings have to be responsible for what they do. Anyone who declares war in the name of God is a liar, because Jesus made it clear that anyone who lives by the sword will die by the sword. Before Jesus, God related to us differently. That included establishing Israel as a nation and wiping out the wicked people who inhabited the land God promised to them.

    If there was human wickedness and rebellion against God, that is where you will find that God punished them. Like, say, sacrifices to other gods.

    You do look at the Bible, and you do quote it, but there's almost always more to the story, SGenius.
  • bloc said on Jul 17, 2007....
    "If there was human wickedness and rebellion against God, that is where you will find that God punished them"
    You are hiding behind vagueness. Didn't God kill the first born son of a bunch of people just to prove his manliness? That doesn't sound very Godly to me. Are you suggesting that a bunch of children deserved to die because of their parents religious beliefs? Does that even make sense?
  • silverwhisper said on Jul 17, 2007....
    lidstrom, what translation do you favor for devotional purposes?

    ed
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
    silver: I use the New International Version and more often the New Living Translation. I used to be all about the NIV, but I found that the wording could be occasionally confusing. I've read The Message also, but I've found a couple of instances where the verse's meaning was changed while they translated it into everyday, contemporary language. I don't think any translation is perfect, short of learning Greek and Hebrew and reading the original texts.

    I hear you bloc, it does sound extreme. What you quoted of me does explain it, though. Are you referring to Egypt in the killing of the firstborn? God was punishing them and their Pharoah for enslaving God's people. That counts as wicked and rebellious in my book.

    Again, it sounds extreme to slaughter children. It's a very controversial thing, to say the least (understatement, I know). If an older generation is wiped out, but the younger generations would grow to be just as wicked, if not more so, then it would call for their destruction if they would grow up to try to kill, enslave, or persecute God's people. Only a God with knowledge of the future could know the future wickedness of a generation of children, theoretically.

    I won't lie, sometimes we Christians read the Bible and have to give God the benefit of the doubt, so to speak. Did we live in those times? Did we see what kind of wickedness warranted their destruction? No...but that doesn't make it false, or a lie.

    Faith is blind in a way, yes...but to a Christian, faith is being certain of what we do not see. That's the whole point - we're rewarded for having faith in an invisible God. Jesus said "blessed are those who do not see and still believe." He said that to one of his disciples after Jesus was resurrected, who had doubted Jesus' return until He saw Jesus in the flesh, in person, and only believed Him because he saw Him. That's not easy for anyone for grasp, but I believe that Jesus was the ultimate force of good that this world has ever, or will ever, know.
  • silverwhisper said on Jul 17, 2007....
    lidstrom: thank you. i had a feeling you were a parallel bible-kinda guy. :>

    ed
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
    parallel-bible kinda guy? lol...that's a very humorous term :) You really get more perspective in knowing more translations, because they each hold each other accountable in a way...if a few core translations say the same thing, it's easier to see one that deviated enough from the text to cause confusion. But I haven't seen much in which the meaning has completely changed (except one instance with The Message).

    But you could sum up the Bible in five words:

    We screw up. Jesus saves.
  • silverwhisper said on Jul 17, 2007....
    lidstrom, you might find this blog entry of mine of some interest. :>

    ed
  • bloc said on Jul 17, 2007....
    "We screw up. Jesus saves."

    I worry that this philosophy teaches the opposite of personal responsibility.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
    bloc, you're referring to "cheap grace", i.e. that people can do whatever they want because the forgiveness of God is a safety blanket. That is something as old as the Bible itself, and indeed the epistles (letters that Paul wrote to various churches, that make up a great deal of the New Testament), dealt with false religions, immorality, twisting the Word of God, and they definitely spoke out against taking advantage of God's grace. "God cannot be mocked." - He knows where our hearts and minds are.

    You point out a very old problem, bloc, and because of sin I think it will remain until Jesus returns. No one can say they believe in God, then participate in all manner of sin Saturday night...only to dress up and appear pious the next day.

    Keep in mind, because no one is perfect, you could say there's always some degree of hypocrisy. But that's a consequence of free will and our more selfish desires.

    So yeah, people could say that Jesus saves, so they can do whatever they want. But they are ignoring what the Bible says on the matter, and so they look foolish for not knowing enough about their faith to know what they do is wrong.

    In the end, it's not the fact that Jesus saves that encourages a lack of personal responsibility - it's what humans do in response. 
  • bloc said on Jul 17, 2007....
    @lid
    well put and I understand it perfectly. I was also referring to things outside of the spiritual realm. I feel that this "cheap grace" is the easy road to take and that it bleeds over to other realms. Maybe if we elect the right president, and let him do whatever he wants (constitution shmonstitution) we will be safe. We should trust him, he's hte president, and he'll keep us safe. 

    I'm going to go off on a tangent, but I remember a deistic description of original sin as our inherent laziness and greed. Part of that is wanting people to solve our problems for us (or for them to magically go away) because it's a lot easier than being responsible. I know that isn't what is meant by "jesus saves", but it's an easy tool for the lazy rationalizer. 
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
    Yeah, that's a really good insight, bloc. I hadn't thought of that in terms of the president. He should not have cheap grace from us, in a sense...there needs to be accountability, whether it's someone in power, or a Christian in church.

    This isn't directed at you, but I've seen people bash the president repeatedly, but exhibited laziness in presenting an alternative. We do want people to solve problems for us, but if someone abuses that power, will we be too lazy to solve the problem ourselves?

    I take comfort personally that although many use "jesus saves" as an escape clause for justifying and rationalizing their behavior, again, God cannot be mocked. I know that no one will get away with insulting God, or of secret wrongdoing to others, even if they take those secrets to the grave. Justice will be done, and I don't mean banishing bad people to hell.

    I have to be careful of laziness myself, because at the church I work at (I do all the graphics and posters and stuff with another dude), there is a heavy emphasis not on going out like soldiers and converting people, but to love them and to explain where that love comes from. It's easy to be like "Yea, church!" and watch all this love getting spread around without my participation. I can't be lazy like that. It does happen, and I have to be honest with myself and admit that, and ask forgiveness of God. I have to repent of that - to confess, which is not just saying "I'm sorry" but committing to turning around and turning away from the laziness or sin I committed.

    The cure to cheap grace is an honest, repentant heart that is earnestly seeking to grow closer to God, not to justify wrongdoing. Bloc, I think that deistic description of original sin is pretty accurate because it doesn't point out just the stuff that people DO wrong..it points at the good things people DON'T do.
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

    Ok let’s look a little closer at Jesus.

    Attributes of other saviours in recorded history before Jesus was even spoken of.

    1. Born of a virgin on December 25th
    2. Stars appeared at their births
    3. Turning water into wine
    4. Cast out demons
    5. Performed Miracles
    6. Transfigured before followers
    7. Rode a donkey into the city
    8. Celebrated communal meal with Bread and wine (which represented saviours flesh and blood)
    9. Killed on a cross or a tree
    10. Descended into hell
    11. Resurrected on third day
    12. Ascended into heaven to forever sit beside his father god and become divine judge.

     

    Any of the above sound familiar when looking at the story of Jesus? The early church leaders had problems from the pagans at the beginning because the pagan said that everything that they had said about Jesus had already been written about Dionysus and Hercules so it’s nothing new. The religious church apologists then stated...

    "For when they say that Dionysus arose again and ascended to heaven, is it not evident that the devil has imitated the prophecy?" Justin Martyr Church Father.

    So the church claimed that although nearly everything written about Jesus was the same or similar when you look at the story of Dionysus and Hercules it was the devil that had predicted the story of Jesus and tried to confuse the people before the story was even written. Are you Serious?

    Look up the stories of Osiris, Mithra or Dionysus. They pre empted the story of Jesus and are extremely similar. The church doesn’t often have to explain this because the aforementioned are long buried in the history of religion. There is also the claim that these stories came from the jewish sect which create dthe old testament, if this is the case then the pagen gods had already been named and written about before Jesus had been named and written about.

    I would be interested in your views on this.

    SG

  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
    Since Jesus is real, that would make Satan real as well, and Satan hates all creation mainly because it was God who created it. And we're the prime targets, being the pinnacle of creation.

    Satan would be pretty slick to convince humanity that their Creator is not the only true god. That all the extraordinary things God has done in people, miracles, and in Jesus were not that special, but have also been done in other ways by other people. And if eternity after this life depended upon it, humanity would have an awful lot to lose if they believed in the wrong god.

    How can we tell for sure that other religions and mythology didn't glean all this from Christianity? Comic books retcon the origins and traits of long-known superheroes; who says the people of Jesus' time didn't do the same for Osiris, Dionysius, and the like, even though they were already well-known at the time?

    Besides, there is prophecy in the Old Testament that points to Jesus' return. It wasn't just Jesus' life that was chronicled in the Bible. There are tons of prophecies about how Jesus would come to Earth, and what would happen, written hundreds of years before He actually arrived. I believe the book of Isaiah has some of the clearest examples.

    Those are my initial thoughts - let me look deeper into the topic for the sake of discussion.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 17, 2007....
    Well assuming you don't take the Bible as 100% fact then the existance of Jesus doesn't prove Satan, though for the sake of this debate I won't focus on that.
     
    Your second paragraph is right, though it isn't at all rooted in reality.  First even the Bible acknowledges on at least two separate and distinct cases that there are either other "real" Gods or that Magic in fact exists.  The staffs to snakes in Egypt and the Witch and Endor.
     
    We can tell that other religions didn't copy Christianity because the other religions existed and were documented first.  You've pretty much asked how do we know that William Shakespear didn't copy Romeo Must Die with Jet Li when he wrote Romeo and Juliet. 
     
    The prophesies speaking of Jesus are rather vague, and many don't believe that the criteria were met.  That said I don't know what in the OT points to Jesus' return, rather than his arrival in the first place.
     
    Nor can I find much Biblical reference to Satan being filled with hatred.  Hell as I point out in a much earlier blog http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/17932/The-Devil-isn%27t-evil it is rather difficult to make Satan out to be the bad guy.
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....
    Good point sean.
     
    I will look forward to hearing your thoughts lidstrom.
     
    SG
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
    Great thoughts to discuss, Renaud.

    I think it's very debatable which religion exactly came first,  and what religion borrowed from whom. But that will take more research on my part. Same with the Old Testament prophecy. It is there, I'll find specific examples at some point.

    About the staff to snakes and the Witch of Endor: Pharoah's magicians did copy some of the signs that God did through Moses (particularly the staff). There are spiritual powers other than God, but if they're not from Him, we shouldn't be messing with it.

    Also, Saul screwed up badly by consulting the Witch of Endor rather than trusting in God, and that was largely responsible for his downfall. it was clear he was in the wrong for doing so.

    Witchcraft and magic are identified as wicked things in the Bible, and drives people away from God. I think the main reason why is because it offers controllable power for ourselves, rather than letting god work supernaturally through people to heal and bless others.

    In the Bible, it is extremely clear that Satan is evil. Apparently he was the highest ranking angel, but upon learning that God intended humanity to be the crown jewel of creation, Satan (then called Lucifer - or bringer of light) became arrogant and jealous of us, got a good portion of angels to challenge God, and a spiritual battle occurred, resulting in Satan being banished from Heaven with his fallen angels. Talk about humiliation. Satan certainly has a motive for screwing with the human race.

    I think fallen angels, or demons, tempt us with less than noble thoughts. They can possess human beings (it is somewhat possible a select few mental illnesses can be attributed to demon possession, but how do we know for sure?), appear as deceased loved ones to deceive the aggrieved, and basically anything else that would encourage love for God and of others. That would include posing as gods themselves, to be worshipped.

    In fact, Scripture details "sons of God" that became enamored with human women, and took human form to enjoy them. They are fallen angels known as Nephilim, and they existed before and after the Flood. The Bible says that they were the famous heroes of old..possibly hinting that they could have inspired most known mythology of the ancient world.

    The devil tempts, lies, and deceives, and one such tactic is making himself out to be "not so bad." He comes disguised as "an angel of light," but in reality "your enemy, the devil, prowls like a roaring lion, seeking whom he will devour." Devour as in, destroying men's souls with immorality, depravity, or even skepticism of God. The possibility that a powerful, unseen enemy wants to eff up our lives should scare the crap out of people. Besides, you don't have to consciously admit Satan's existence to go along with him; if you deny God's existence, Satan's done most of his job.

    But that's the reason for Jesus; so that our enemies will not overcome us. That's why Jesus is vital, why His resurrection means so much.
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

    Jesus's existance or validity a an entity of any kind is at best questionable. The same goes for satan and the spiritual battle you speak of.

    The time line goes something like this...

    Tribel sects

    Tribal sect/jewish progression with old testament

    Many other "Sons" of a "god or gods" (name already provided in this blog.)

    Then jesus appears coincidently with the same attributes and story of previouse "Son(s)" of god.

    To me it is all un-reliable.

    SG

  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 17, 2007....
    Ah so you trust the books that the Church denied as cannon. Not that I have a problem with that, I am just trying to establish the fact that the chapter with angels mating with humans and that stuff isn't in the "real" Bible, it's like the Gospel of Judas (which makes for interesting if sad reading.)
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
    That timeline is hotly disputed, SG. I don't think it's impossible, but it's not nearly the "true story" that your wording makes it seem.

    I trust the books the church denied as canon? I got that bit about the Nephilim from Genesis, dudeness. I know the Catholic church accepts some texts that Protestant churches don't, and I don't immediately rule them out as evil. At the same time, the Council of Nicaea apparently didn't think them vital to biblical canon, but I have to doublecheck that.

    The accepted biblical canon contains some pretty controversial stuff, so it's not like they played it safe. For instance, the Song of Solomon in the Old Testament is some of the most erotic literature you're likely to find, and indeed many churches have tried to exclude it. Many Christians that are read passages of it often get shocked that it's from the Bible. But it shows a good biblical picture of marriage that is actually far from puritanical modesty/rigidity. In short, one can conclude that sex was designed by God for husband and wife, and is at its best in a marriage because it is intimacy plus commitment, and that commitment brings safety and comfort to an act that often leaves us vulnerable to another human being, being naked physically and bare emotionally, too.

    That's a fun little tangent on God's true view of sex, but hey, there's more to the book than meets the eye.
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 18, 2007....
    The old testament evolved from other more primitive forms of religion. Other gods were worshipped before the old testament was written. Do you deny those pre-old testament gods existed or are you of the opinion they are false gods.
     
    SG
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....
    The Song of Solomon is not THAT erotic.  Seriously, it might have been racy one hundred years ago.  Stay up and watch something on HBO past ten o'clock.  I'm sick and tired of that bs.
     
    That said I'll re-check it I don't remember the Nephlim in Genesis any more than I remember Lillith in the cannon Bible.  Just because something was excluded by the council (to me) doesn't mean that it null and void, it doesn't even mean that you are picking and choosing, I was merely trying to establish if you are using those texts or not because it does change the parameters of a discussion. 
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
    I'm definitely of the opinion that they are false gods. By that I don't mean false as in "imaginary", but either fallen angels in human form (Nephilim), or demons in the spiritual world that grant power or knowledge to humans in an effort to undermine God and cut that person off from Him.

    I agree that other gods were worshipped before the OT was written (it is generally accepted amongst a number of biblical scholars that Moses wrote the Pentateuch; before he wrote those books, those events had to have transpired already, and Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy contain God's laws for establishing his civilization, and consequences for disobeying Him - and usually those consequences came from disobedience, usually from worshipping other gods. The Golden Calf comes to mind, as do the magicians of Pharoah's court. They were not God's chosen people, but they still disobeyed God.

    I do disagree that the Old Testament was evolved from primitive forms of religion, because within it contains specific instructions from God NOT to mix with other religions. If it came from a group of divinely inspired writers, it is what it is. When God's people in the Old Testament started mixing and matching who they worshipped, and adopted primitive religions in any way, God punished them. So no, I don't buy that it is a compilation of the best of other religions.

    Again, a sly enemy doesn't necessarily attack you head-on, but seeks to undermine, discredit, and destroy you from within. I believe Satan does that with a human soul. But remember, while that is hard to see or observe, Christians pose the greatest threat, and they come under the most scrutiny from Satan. Therefore, nonchristians aren't going to suffer very much; some of them are already deceived.

    Tangent alert: the great irony with that in our current day is that radical Islam is doing the same thing with America. They do not fight us on a field of battle, but blow themselves up anonymously in populated areas of their own land, to kill those of other religions. Terrorist cells exist in the United States in nearly every major city, and they study us, find our weak points, and attempt to take our land because it is their right to dominate as followers of Allah. Again, attacking from within. This is a more insidious type of invasion than any Japanese or Nazi scheme from wars past. They are going about this much the way Satan does; they both undermine from the inside out, and they hardly appear to be a threat until it's too late. Thing is, most of the reason Islam is doing this is because they see US as the Great Satan.

    Is Islam in itself evil? No...but I believe it's a false religion that has been at odds with Christianity and Judaism since the days of Isaac and Ishmael. Check out Genesis and what happened to Abraham and his wife Sarah; they grew impatient with waiting for Sarah to get pregnant, so Abraham slept with his wife's maidservant and gave birth to Ishmael. He was predicted to be at odds with himself, and his brothers. I think that since Abraham didn't trust God to bless them with a child by Sarah, Ishmael was not a blessing. It was only when Isaac was born that Abraham saw that God is faithful. It could be true that the entire Arab nation was borne from Ishmael, and it perfectly explains the millennia-old hatred and strife in the Middle East; a religion-fueled blood feud older than the Bible itself. But the Bible also says that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all children of Abraham, and thus they have a common bond. Hopefully that bond will take root and quell some of the violence in the Middle East. I know this is going to be controversial, but I'm afraid that Muhammed was not a true prophet, or a divine being. The main reason is because the Koran holds Jesus in high esteem, but He was not resurrected, and He was not the Son of God. Instead, Jesus is a great prophet of Allah.

    However, the Jesus said specifically that "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." In other words, Islam can't pigeonhole Jesus in a box. He wasn't just a prophet that fit into the story of Muhammed and Allah; He's the savior of mankind. So for that reason, I don't trust the Koran will instruct life-giving, harmonious lessons to its readers, especially in terms of Christianity and Judaism.

    At church this past weekend, we had 3 ex-terrorists that became Christian, and they spoke about what their life was life as terrorists. They told us about how they grew up in Islam, and were taught that Allah favors the warrior. They were taught that to die as a martyr for Allah would bring Allah the greatest glory. So they got recruited into terrorist organizations - one of the speakers was only 7 years old when he participated in a bombing in Israel - and eventually, through different circumstances, they were told about Jesus and they realized that their life of militant Islam did not provide grace and peace. They no longer wanted to live by the sword, so to speak.

    I only heard one of the three speakers because I had to leave to print more church bulletins (we had fifteen hundred people come on a Saturday night to hear these dudes speak, it was huge and awesome), but the one I heard in person was the guy who became a terrorist at age 7. He recruited his neighbor of the same age to go and fight for Allah by killing Jews. He never thought twice about killing someone that was not of his lifestyle and worldview. But he heard a preacher talking to a man on the street, and he challenged him to explain what the preacher meant about Jesus, and when threatening the man with death, the preacher simply explained that Jesus offers hope for your life. To a man who had killed many and had a lot of blood on his hands, hope was something revolutionary when you woke up thinking about killing others - and thus ending their own hope.

    He contacted the preacher again that night (again threatening his life and that of another if the preacher didn't tell him more about Jesus), and when he met the preacher, the preacher laid it out clearly what Jesus said. The Terrorist confessed to God that night and threw his pistol away...the same pistol he killed with.

    Once his family and mosque found out, they excommunicated him. Now, with Islamic law, excommunication means you have 3 days to confess your error and return to Islam - or else you're put to death. He fled to Canada, and now he speaks to Muslims living in Canada about the danger of Islam, and its shortcomings. He offers the alternative of Jesus to them. In response, he has been stabbed, his car and his home have been firebombed, and his lifestyle of sharing Jesus has incited so much violence from Muslims that the government had tried to take his family away for their safety.

    Why does someone just pull a 180 like that? They grew up to love Allah by hating and seeking to kill infidels such as Jews or Americans. Yet when Jesus is plainly shared to them, they stop an entire lifetime of other teaching to embrace the Truth. Not only embrace it, but flee your homeland because of persecution, and spread the same message to the those of the same Islamic faith. On top of that, the guy isn't speaking to the homeless or elderly - he's talking to people that, according to their religion, should be dead. And they've tried to kill him.

    What makes a person do that? Remember, he is no longer a Muslim extremist who will kill others in the name of "Allah." He is going around, simply speaking. Why should he die for speaking to people? It's what he's saying. And he's willing to risk his life for it. He lived the type of religion that is poison, and in finding a relationship with Jesus, he is trying to convince his fellow people of that same poison, and offering them the Truth.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
    Hey Renaud, put the guns down man. Just because HBO desensitizes people doesn't mean the Song of Solomon is vanilla by today's standards. Besides, it's mostly metaphor for explicit stuff. It's shocking for a holy book, but it doesn't have the desensitized explicit nudity or rampant sexual presence of our media. Your comments speak as a whole for what we consider acceptable today, and today's standards are sad. We are desensitized to things that should be explicit. In essence, it is easy to criticize Song of Solomon when our society's media mind is in the gutter.

    Genesis 6:1-8. Nephilim, bro.

    I understand the nature of including noncanonical books into the discussion, but Nephilim are in Genesis, so we're still in canon.

    Renaud, I think I'm seeing hostility in you. What's the deal, man?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

    *       So no, I don't buy that it is a compilation of the best of other religions.

    *       Despite a mountain of facts that very little of the Bible hadn’t been recorded elsewhere first.
    *       I’ve done, particularly for me a surprisingly good job of keeping my claws sheathed.  Religion, the whole of it pisses me off and the more I hear people rationalize and make excuses for how this is misinterpreted, or that is taken out of context.  No matter how many examples I dig up through the Bible of this that or the other people usually with no evidence (read anything by Shiningstar) of why they believe what they believe. 
    *        
    HBO isn’t the beginning of hardcore.  The Song of Solomon is rather vanilla by today’s standards.  It is shocking because of the surrounding material, and even then only in a sorta we get our fair share of violence but really very little sex.  Our societies media is in the gutter?  Once again only from a puritan point of view.  There is no solid reason to think that anything with our media is making us worse rather than better.  You can talk all you want about STD’s and teen pregnancy but then you have to answer why Europe, Canada, Japan and Mexico where they’re Saturday morning cartoons and Seasame Street would get censored before being put on HBO or Mtv don’t have these problems.  They are also (save Mexico) all secular nations.  The short answer is we know what causes teen pregnancy is pushing misinformation like abstinence only.  Also I stand corrected on the Nephilim.  Odd how I’d forgotten that part.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
    I don't say this out of anger, Renaud, but I do think you fail to see just what effect the media has on us in general. If it continually depicts things that aren't beneficial for humans in general, people are going to think differently, if not emulate what they see. The very sexual messages that make the Song of Solomon seem vanilla are exactly the kind of messages that the media sends. Avoiding media's effect, or assuming it doesn't have a negative effect, is not a wise decision, especially when our children do so much to follow that they see in music videos, movies, cartoons. Not all of it is bad, but media messages can be powerful. And not all of it is good.

    And no one can underestimate a contraceptive with a 100% success rate - abstinence.

    What is it about religion that pisses you off, Renaud? If a perfect God creates the entire world, and mankind is imperfect by nature, don't you think we're going to misunderstand or misinterpret what that God says in the Bible? Is it really impossible to think that if God is real, then some of us are going to get it wrong?

    I pray for patience for you in terms of religion, because Christians with a real relationship with Jesus have a personal proof that no one else does. If you want proof, seek God for yourself. But keeping your claws sheathed is a good idea, because the majority of America does believe in a God, even if it's not necessarily the Christian one, or whether they "got it right."

    The best proof for anyone is to go where God is worshiped, and where He is working. If no one is willing to do that, then you'll never have your proof, generally speaking. And if you're not willing to do that, then how can anyone conclude religion is garbage?

    Christians must have a reason for the hope they have in Jesus; the Bible tells us to. And if anyone believes in anything, they must also have a reason for it. That is true blind faith. But faith in Jesus is not blind if He works in the lives of those that believe in Him. To them, that is proof enough.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....
    Like I said if people were really emulating the media why is America more violent and with more STD's and more teen pregnancies than our neighbors who's media makes ours tame?
     
    You can't underestimate abstinance, what you can prove though is that it goes against human nature.  People who have only been taught abstinance are unaware of how to protect themselves when they step outside of that realm and thus they make more mistakes than those who were taught abstinance as well as other forms for birth control.
     
    Actually no, I think that a perfect God would be able to communicate to imperfect people.  Harvard professors do it each and every day.  That said it's possible that some people might make some mistakes but not so many mistakes that if you ask any two people the answer is slightly different.  Not so much that people can't even decide if Christians are supposed to lay down and die as matyrs when threatened or pick up the sword and defend themselves.  Anything written that vaguely (and the Bible isn't vague but I'll be damned if Christians are capable of some radical leaps of rationalization) shouldn't be used as a life guide.
     
    The majority of people once believed the world was flat and the Sun revolved around us.  So uh, majority rule doesn't count for much. 
     
    I've been (and was raised) in the Chuch, I've been there and seen the sheep and once believed.
     
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
    What changed that made you leave the church?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....
    I grew up.  Too many questions, to few answers.  To many contradictions.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
    I've seen that happen. Is it that the church you went to didn't have the answers, didn't represent Jesus very well? That definitely happens too. Were there just lazy, crappy Christians attending/leading it? 
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....
    I don't know, I don't think so.  Up and until she died I had a very good relationship with the the leader of the Choir, even called her my Aunt.  I wore the necklace she gave me up until I lost it in Iraq.  I was pretty cool with the Pastor for years too. 
     
    I'm certain there are better ways to represent any given religion than the way I was shown it so but I cant say anything particularly negative about any of them.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
    That's great that you have fond memories of the people there, the previous leader of the choir and knowing the Pastor for awhile. And it doesn't sound like they gave you a terrible view of Christianity. Would you ever go back to that church?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....
    I moved.   If not I'd probably still attend Bible Study, they did a thing called Wenesday Night out, big pot luck every week.  Eventually got cut down to once a month but I'd probably attend if it were nearby.
     
     
  • StupidGenius said on Jul 18, 2007....

    Sean when you give up drugs it is possible to relapse :)

    Religion is contradictory, full of excuses, segregatory, fiction and a terrible guide for people seeking to learn how to be moral. It continues becauese it claims to have all the answers and because it is imbred by families.

    I have a son due to be born in november and I will make sure that what ever happenes he has the clear choice to believe in what he wants. Bible camps are a terrible terrible tragedy in my eyes.

    Why do people look at children and say, "Oh thats a jewish kid" or "oh that kids Christian" A kid isnt anything until it has grown up and decided for itself what it wants to be. Religion catches kids when they are young and then they grow up with blind faith and no understanding of reality or factual evidence when it comes to religion.

    SG

  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
    That's a sweeping generalization, SG, in that not all churches baptize and keep a kid emotionally and spiritually strangled. Most of my friends who belong to a denomination-that-must-not-be-named have more than a little cynicism for the very beliefs they hold dear. It's a weird thing.

    My church dedicated babies but leaves baptism to be a clear choice for the child. Ideally, a parent will instruct the child about God and other alternatives, and they make the decision themselves.

    But I do heartily disagree about the malevolent, or downright sneaky practices of religion that you speak of, SG. You hit the nail on the head with some, but completely missed with others.

    Renaud, there is no life in considering going back to church as a relapse. I understand where SG is coming from, but the fact is that there are churches that do none of the things SG refers to. I would encourage you to get reconnected at a church somewhere, not just because of "God reasons", but because of connecting and having friendships and relationships that encourage you in good things, and hold you accountable to avoid bad things. A small group bible study is the kind of group that supports and corrects us, the type of people that will pray for your needs no matter how big or small, and can step in and provide your needs, whether you get sick and go to the hospital and they get you cards or flowers or bring you meals, or if you're short on cash for paying the bills and they all pitch in to help you out. That last example happened with me and my wife when we most needed it. Stuff like that is tangible and real and something you don't ever forget. It would also help to get to know people who are considered "religious" but don't spew the worst parts of dogma at you.

    If you have a chance, find an area church and see what they have. Not every church has it right, but there are many benefits to it. You can choose.

    Hey SG...if you're referring to bible camps as in "Jesus Camp", I shudder at that kind of stuff. It is less of God and more of an ultraconversative movement to aggressively recruit children to take over the White House, political arena, and every other kind of society. It's like a more peaceful version of Islam.

    What works is loving relationships, and sharing Jesus' love that way. If you love a person and they ask you why you do, then you can truthfully tell them that just as Jesus loved you, Jesus loves them as well. That way it's not an ultimatum, or a pressure-filled situation. It's an honest answer to an honest question. Every other tactic or strategy for spreading faith really comes across as manipulative or forceful. But having good relationships with others is the best thing you can do, and it's improved when Jesus is the reason you love them, because you are loving with God's love, and that is much needed when you are trying to love someone and they're throwing it back in your face. Your patience will run out at some point. Asking God to fill you with love is a power that is greater than imprisonment, torture, and murder, because even if you have everything taken away, and you sit alone in a stinking jail cell, you know you have a reward in Heaven, and that this life is brief compared to eternity with God. That sounds silly until we find ourselves alone in some way or another.

    Renaud, there's great good in connecting with people who have such love.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

    That's a sweeping generalization, SG, in that not all churches baptize and keep a kid emotionally and spiritually strangled.


    While it might be possible to find such a thing, churches that encourage you to question your beliefs or explore other religions are few and far between.  I don’t have to force feed you pro American Propaganda everyday to keep you from moving to England.

    .
    I understand the “relapse” thing and I don’t really think there is much chance of it.  If I didn’t relapse in the military it’s not bloody likely.   That said I do miss the support group thing, but I don’t like people that much so I’ll deal.  You do make a solid point though.  I’ve checked out a few of the local churches (granted it was years ago with my parents) all of them were gross time sinks.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
    Wow bro, I also struggle with just being around people for the sake of interacting. I do well enough, but I don't go out of my way to have awesome interactions. But being that I'm in a church every day, I see pros and cons to it. Part of me definitely wishes to be more connected, while part of me wants my own space.

    I would encourage you to take a step right now, and not go by years-ago experiences, in the interest of giving yourself a support group. Give it another chance, Renaud. I understand the "connecting with people" part can be weird, but that kind of support is invaluable.
  • shiningstar said on Jul 18, 2007....
    Just one small comment here.  One post quoted Jesus as saying "I am the way,  the truth and the Light".  Any one ever tried to give their I AM away????>Try and make a sentence that applies to someone else us