SoulCast - Jesus Christ

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Jesus Christ

SeanRenaud posted on Jul 03, 2007 | views: 3266 | Tags: Jesus, Theology, belief, christianity, religiou, faith of our fathers, zen, delusion

http://www.soulcast.com/shiningstar/

The first thing that absolutely must be established about Jesus that we are only faced with two options when it comes to that man. He was either the son of the Living God, or he was the worst liar in the history of the planet. If you do not believe Jesus to be the Son of God, then you must accuse him of being the originator of a hoax so large that it has caused millions of deaths and literally shaped human history.

I would really like somebody to explain to me in sane terms what third option has somehow been invented here?

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Comments

bloc said on Jul 03, 2007....
Did Jesus tell you personally that he was the son of god? The third option is that the story was exaggerated or changed over the large amount of time since he was alive.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 03, 2007....

Ok, that the Bible is a lie. That is a third option that I suppose can be taken into acount but at that point you can't use it as a reference point much either.
bloc said on Jul 03, 2007....
i don't ;)
SeanRenaud said on Jul 03, 2007....

Yeah I know.
fearing said on Jul 03, 2007....
Sean - which do you believe? Just curious.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 03, 2007....

Either that he was a liar or that the stories of him are GREATLY exaggerated. The thing was that I've been in several debates with the individual I linked here that somehow tries to take religion, include a God that isn't Jehovah, say that Jesus taught us to ignore the teachings of Jehovah (the God of the Old Testament)

He's terribly confused and confusing. Yet interesting and hell he hasn't blocked me yet which is always a good sign for people that I'm debating with.
GrapeKoolaid said on Jul 03, 2007....
I just want to point out that during the time of early Christianity, before Constantine legalized it in the Edict of Milan, there were several mystery cults with several sons of gods. Several martyrs, too. Christianity was not unique in this manner. What was indeed peculiar about Christianity was that it took an ancient and secret tradition and made it available/accessible to the general public.

It's only when it became acceptable in Roman society that it was able to piggy-back Rome's influence throughout the Mediterranean and shaped Western civilization into what it is today. One could even say the foundations of such.

To dismiss the text that sets the foundation of this faith as "dribble" is frankly, fallacious.
kelly said on Jul 04, 2007....
"To dismiss the text that sets the foundation of this faith as "dribble" is frankly, fallacious. "

I completely agree. The word is "drivel."
GrapeKoolaid said on Jul 04, 2007....
Sorry, I stand corrected.
silverwhisper said on Jul 04, 2007....
sean, another example exists, that his followers falsified things after the death of jesus and fabricated the resurrection. what followers of a cause will do in its name is a recurring horror story through history.

i don't believe that's the case here, though.

ed
RollingC said on Jul 04, 2007....
Well.... to me being the " worst " liar means that nobody believes me so that's not the correct wording in my opinion.
I've heard say that Jesus was the best salesman in the history of the human race as what He was selling 2000yrs ago is still being bought today. :>)

And I'm one of the buyers.
Rc
boyzmom said on Jul 04, 2007....
I would say that Jesus was more than the son of the Living God- the father, son and holy ghost are one. So the holy ghost who is part of God and Jesus, touched the writers of the Bible to make it truth. God made Jesus' teachings truthful (by allowing miracles). The Holy spirit lead the followers to spread the news. So if you think it is a hoax or something that followers did to cover up any indications that they were following a false messiah, then you would have to believe that such widespread delusions can only be done with supernatural forces like God and the holy spirit. I mean there is no other explanation for the belief in Jesus that happens throughout generations for thousands of miles from where he originated. Some are lead to believe by the holy spirit and some are not regardless of whether they go to church as a young person or not.
StupidGenius said on Jul 04, 2007....

Did you all think I wouldn’t comment on a religion related topic??? lol

I’m with bloc on this one.

When ever someone says god does not exist there is always someone that says

"God made Jesus' teachings truthful (by allowing miracles). The Holy Spirit led the followers to spread the news. So if you think it is a hoax or something that followers did to cover up any indications that they were following a false messiah, then you would have to believe that such widespread delusions can only be done with supernatural forces like God "

Lets try this out...

"I [Insert own name here] am personally unable to think of any way in which [Insert phenomenon here] could have possibly happened, therefore god did it."

...Delusion...

Natural selection people... I’m working on a blog about it.

ALIENated said on Jul 08, 2007....


Mark 3:29 
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of
an eternal sin. 

Holy Spirit = Jesus = God

I am afraid Jesus cannot save you from this one. Have a good time in hell. I hear
it is very hot ... for all eternity.

StupidGenius said on Jul 08, 2007....

Alienated,

Im not worried becaue god, hell, the holy spirit drinker etc exist only in the minds of the delusional. Hell is not a reality and so I have no fear of it.

Criticising religion is only blashemey because the church wrote a get out clause to criticism. "If you criticise our delusion you will go to hell" or "If you question our delusion you will go to hell". What a load of tosh.

SG
RollingC said on Jul 08, 2007....
It really doesn't matter as long as your heart is in the right place. Above all things God is forgiving and if you do the right thing (funny that the bible is full of the right rules) then you won't be eating tosh when your time comes.
StupidGenius said on Jul 08, 2007....
You dont know who god is, you have never met him and you have never spoken to him. You cant prove he exists all you can do is simply cling onto your frail faith and hope that you have bet on the right horse. You cant prove any of what you call religion, you simply regurgitate old meaningless scripture.
RollingC said on Jul 08, 2007....
I beg to differ Stupid... ehh genius...( sorry....couldn't help myself).
I've had experiences that cannot be explained scientifically or logically.... does that count as knowing...or at least having met... God ?
(read my first blogs)
Rc
SeanRenaud said on Jul 08, 2007....

No more so than any other acid trip.
truthsayer said on Jul 09, 2007....

Well, well, well. At last, we meet again. SeanR, I have a message for you, and although I know it is a hymn, I hope you know what it means. It is always an act of faith and obedience, when the Lord tells me something for someone. He said for me to tell you that we need to remember the 'faith of our fathers'.

For me, personally, that means my grandparents...they pretty much raised me. My parents were damaged by their secrets. My grandparents were the ones that trained me up. They tried to train my mother, but she wasn't interested. They tried to train my older sibs...but they weren't interested. Oh, my oldest brother looked like he was interested. But he was one of those that boyzmom mentioned too...one raised in the church, but they missed the soul train. That's another song, I know ; )

I don't think I would pay too much mind to a guy/gal (SG) that has such a conflict obviously confessed in his nickname ; ) At least not about this topic. : )

I don't have anything against shining star either...I just don't interact very long with confusion. I recognize it for what it is, and move on.

But that's just my deal. I have to.

Remember the faith of our fathers SeanR. I hope that doesn't confuse you : ) If it does, feel free to move on : ) No hard feelings, ever.

Blessings,

truthsayer
StupidGenius said on Jul 10, 2007....

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

these people need to wake up.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 10, 2007....
IT's good to hear from you Truth, we may not agree on probably anything. But I like you a lot and I missed you.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
This is a good post. Lots of different opinions and some good dialogue, minus the pro-Christian holier-than-thou attitude and atheist cynicism being thrown around. Does anyone honestly think that modern history, our method of recording years, and the largest religion in the world (based on number of adherents) was based on a hoax? Further, the Gospels record the conspiracy set up by the Romans to attribute Jesus' resurrection as a hoax? And that it mentions that to this day, it's still the alibi used to explain how a dead man can live again? You can choose not to believe it if you want. What is funny to me is that God gave us all the free will to reject Him. We focus so much on what we are allowed to do and enjoy, and we have more freedoms in America than many other nations...so what is arguably the greatest and most defining gift that God gave us is what we utilize to reject Him. If nonchristians only knew how silly that makes their position sound. One thing also is that the Bible pretty much has unbelievers nailed. It explains their behavior, mannerisms, speech, how they live life, and all sorts of things. And by their own unbelief, they prove what is said of them in the Bible. Some might say that Christians need to wake up from such delusions, but believing in Jesus, the ultimate embodiment of benevolence, is much more rewarding than trusting in a job, a fat bank account, head knowledge/education, and even other people. Because all of that can fall through in one way or another. Everyone you meet will let you down in some way or another, money can run out, anyone can get laid off from a job, and there's almost always someone smarter than you. I don't believe Jesus was a hoax. There are tons of false religions, not the least of which is the religion of self-importance, and any false religion gets its appeal from taking a grain of truth and twisting it to its will. Islam regards Jesus as an important prophet - but the man Himself said that we can get to God ONLY through Him (Jesus)...not Muhammed, not Allah, or what-have-you. Islam can't put Jesus in a box, and no matter what we try to say to understand/dismiss Him, neither can we. He IS either the savior of the world and thus the most important figure in all of history, or he is a liar, the greatest liar in history. Many liars get the attention they crave, but all lies eventually get exposed. It's been a few thousand years since He walked the Earth, people...how long before we realize that there IS no lie in Jesus to expose?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 10, 2007....

Yes lots of people think he was a hoax, a liar or a great exaggeration myself included. The thing is that we can't disprove it anymore than you can disprove the flying spaghetti monster.
Bordy said on Jul 10, 2007....
Oh SeanRenaud, I never thought I'd see you use the Flying Spaghetti Monster line. I know where you come from on this, since I think the last 5 years or so have taught me at least alittle about you...but I just hate that damn line!
silverwhisper said on Jul 10, 2007....
bordy, do you know sean from the same place i do?

ed
lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
Haha...flying spaghetti monster...

Is it enough to say the flying spaghetti monster never had 4 Gospels written about him/her/it, nor did it change the course of history? The evidence of Jesus is there...question is, do we look for it enough to actually make an educated decision?

More to the point, believing in Jesus can bring you community with millions of other believers, a life that is more vibrant, and an eternity in Heaven with Him. Believing in the flying spaghetti monster will get a good laugh. I'll take the former, but the latter makes me hungry for Italian food.
StupidGenius said on Jul 10, 2007....

Flying spaghetti monster is a perfect illustration of how rediculous religion is. Christians, muslims, jews etc all believe that their religion is the one true religion and isnt it funny how all of them in some way discredit the other.

Religious people discount thousands of other religions that have sprung up through history and say they are false. What makes your religion the right one. You have simply chosen to believe it.

I dont care if people dont like what I say. I speak from the heart and thats all I can do.

Religion, faith in a higher being or creator and the arrogant notion that your religion is the right one is a complex and elaborate hoax that will eventualy become clear to you when you die.

SG
bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
@lid
I think you are making some shaky arguments. The idea that popularity, the number of people that believe, is proof of God is not logical.

You can't make an "educated" decision to believe. Faith is totally outside the realm of reason (i.e. education).
truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

I missed you too SeanR. I had to come looking for you ; ) I got real busy with work; had more pain lately, from my horse/saddle mishap in December; got caught up in private messages; and a took on a summer section of physiology and anatomy, and a science based exercise program...oh yeah, and I finally found a church that I think can handle me ; ) Good to see you too friend. : )

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

Hello Bordy. So, you and Sean are old friends? Nice to meet you, and welcome, if you are new to soulcast.

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

Lidstrom82: You were one of the first people I subscribed to, in Dec. 2006 or Jan. 2007; but, I guessed that you had left for a while and eventually, I unsubscribed. I really like your style, and your testimony, and I have since resubscribed...at least, I tried to. I have noticed, that sometimes, every now and then, it doesn't seem to work. Don't know why. Anyway, greetings, and welcome back, if you were away.

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

SG, your test doesn't work for me. Sorry. I noticed that you said that you speak from your heart friend...but, your heart sounds so angry. I am sorry for that.

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

Hi bloc:

Actually, we are educated before we believe, and we are educated, in a new and better way, after we believe. Faith is an awesome force and resource. Quantum faith is even better ; )

truth
lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
SGenius, I admire your tenacity...not sure if that is the right word, but basically that you doggedly defend your position. That takes serious determination.

For your part, you make it clear that I am believing in delusional concepts and beliefs and it will become apparent when I die that there is no God or Heaven as a reward for living a life that was faithful to the Bible's teachings and Jesus' life. Is that pretty much the gist?

What I'm called to do is to pray for those who have a different outlook, to avoid divisive, derogatory talk. I've been critical of your words in the past, and I do believe your points come across with sarcasm and quite a bit of bluntness. Speaking from the heart is a good thing, but sometimes I think restraint and a spoken respect for those you debate with will save a lot of tension. Of course, Christians you've debated with in the past haven't all been restrained either.

Bloc, I am 100% convinced my arguments aren't shaky, and you can deem them as such. I think that you consistently see flaws in my points, in this post and those previous, and some are errors I failed to see.

I ask that you both understand one thing: there are those who take great care in learning about religion and what to believe. You are wrong to assume that every decision to believe is uneducated. For instance, I've looked at other religions, and made the choice to become a Christian because of Jesus, not because of religious tradition or lack of other options. And I'm not the only one to research what I believe. Do I have questions that I grapple with? Of course. But I don't blindly take in what is said by anyone claiming the title of Christian.

Popularity isn't everything, bloc, you are correct. But taking into account how many Christians there have been in our own history, that is a GIGANTIC amount of people said to believe delusional, uneducated things. That's not even including the billions of other adherents to other religions.

But perhaps one other point must be made: The Bible serves to be given to all people, at all levels of understanding. The great truth of the world shouldn't only be to those who can afford education, but for those less fortunate as well. All human beings need love and respect to thrive, as Jesus taught. It is said that God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Why? Because those who think they know it all, or champion a cause and hold it over others, are actually buying into a wisdom that doesn't always account for loving others.

Example: a Christian giving food to a homeless man and sharing the acceptance that Jesus has for them, is going to do a great deal more than telling him about the finer points of natural selection and carbon dating. On the flipside, a noted scholar who can explain the inner workings of the human body has little answers for the failing health of their spouse. But trusting that a loving God is waiting for their spouse on the other side offers a peace that logic can't offer. So yes, while my arguments appear shaky, the reverse is true in my eyes.

And for the record, there are many people less forgiving than I am when you imply that they have shaky arguments, made an uneducated decision to believe, that their knowledge of the existence of God is illogical, or that religious belief is delusional. Be true to yourselves by all means...but speak the truth in love, not merely to assail religious beliefs. Acknowledge respect for others, and not just point out cracks in their perceived arguments. I say that to both of you, SGenius and bloc, because while your points are educated, the way they come across can outright suck to someone not included in your worldview.
truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....
SG, I am sorry for all of the Christians that you have met, that may have helped you form those opinions too. Really sorry. Gotta go man. Later folks, truthsayer
bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
"that is a GIGANTIC amount of people said to believe delusional, uneducated things."

How many americans in years past believed it made perfect sense to keep slaves? That's the first thing that comes to mind, but I'm sure I could think of many other examples of massive numbers of people believing something that is wrong.

On the issue of an "educated" decision. I may have used the term "educated" in a confusing way. What I meant is that faith is beyond logic and reason.

"I say that to both of you, SGenius and bloc, because while your points are educated, the way they come across can outright suck to someone not included in your worldview."

That's a two way street.

" If nonchristians only knew how silly that makes their position sound. One thing also is that the Bible pretty much has unbelievers nailed. It explains their behavior, mannerisms, speech, how they live life, and all sorts of things. And by their own unbelief, they prove what is said of them in the Bible."

How do you think that comes across?
truthsayer said on Jul 10, 2007....

C'mon bloc...it comes across like a two way street...like both of you just said, but, from different sides, or directions on the street : )
bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
show me where i made anything close to the insult I quoted from him! The audacity to insult me that boldly then to complain about me is beyond ironic.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
How do I think that comes across? Well, take that up with the author of the Bible :)

Besides, would you have that point to contend if I didn't point out the abrasiveness of your words first? Just letting you know that when it goes the other way, it's not a fun thing. I don't say that to be mean, but there's much you can do to promote discussion rather than nitpick another's points.
bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
scroll up my friend. you said that before i nitpicked any of your points. you may want to take a good look in the mirror before you complain about such a thing again.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 10, 2007....

Slavery does make perfect sense. It might be the most moral thing but it seems to make economic sense. Hell if you think about it our current system of debts, particularly in legal suits is defacto slavery. What is a slave but someone who works for another with nothing in return? Seems to me that OJ Simpson is a slave. (Wether or not he deserves it is no where near the point)

To everybody, I try to remain civil, particularly with Truth, and bloc. I'll call ALIEN or Cam a fucktard in a heartbeat. That said there is still a time when you have to call a spade a spade and stop entertaining the other side's opinion. The world isn't flat, the sun doesn't revolve around the earth, the moon's not made of cheese, insanity isn't caused by demons, we evolved from lesser beings and there is a shit load of things we don't understand like why the fuck the universe hasn't collapsed in on itself yet or why gravity is so weak. We can't move forward to find out these new things if we are still going round on these things that have been proven to such a degree that baring new information there is no good reason to discuss.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 10, 2007....
wow bloc, I'm not going to argue with you till I'm blue in the face. Thing is, you take offense to me calling a nonchristian's position silly (in that they take the gift of free will God gave them, and freely reject Him in response). Well, I've had to hear creation is delusional. But yes, it is a two way street. And I do apologize for the way it came across. What you must understand, however, is that the Bible is very clear in the situation of a nonbeliever. It is not favorable, but neither does it command vengeance on a nonchristian. In the end, I believe a nonchristian is worse off than a Christian. That may sound insulting to you, but if any one of us is wrong about ANYTHING, and it's pointed out to us, it's not going to feel too good. Surely after hearing more than enough nonchristian/agnostic/atheist viewpoints, you can afford to have your position deemed as "silly". It's not even an insult on you or your character, just your opinion. There's a difference. But ultimately, don't take my opinion or word for it. Look at the Bible itself and see what it says. I lived 17 years without God, and so I've seen both sides of the street, and being a Christian is definitely the better side of the road. Can any of us claim to have known both sides personally? For instance bloc, or anyone reading, have you ever been a Christian, or grew up in a Christian home? If so, did an experience with the church hurt you or make you bitter? If that's the case, who hurt you? Chances are it was someone who took the Bible and judged you. But oddly enough, people blame God for things that PEOPLE did to them. Why blame God when it was Joe Schmoe that told you your clothes were too inappropriate for church? Give God a break, people. It would be best to keep from having such short fuses when discussing opinions. As a Christian I've endured lots of ridicule. But I face that because it's not really me people attack, it's that I believe what God says. God is big enough to handle insults...but when I suggest a nonchristian's position is less than ideal, it's a direct insult. But truthfully, read the Bible and see where your life truly lies, because that's where my opinion is coming from. In particular, you're an intelligent person, bloc. If you took issue from my words, I mean it in all seriousness that you take it up with God's Word in the Bible. That's where I got it from, and that's what you are really taking offense to.
bloc said on Jul 10, 2007....
I didn't take offense. I found it funny that you condescend right out of the gate then complain later that someone did it to you. It wasn't offensive, it was boldly ironic and hypocritical.
Bordy said on Jul 11, 2007....
silverwhisper:
I know seanrenaud from our days in the Marine Corps.
Shoot, I thought at least *somebody* would have remembered my name, I was the one who convinced Sean to start posting here in the first place!
bloc said on Jul 11, 2007....
I remembered :)
SeanRenaud said on Jul 11, 2007....

I remembered too!
lidstrom82 said on Jul 11, 2007....
Wow bloc, I find it extremely hard to talk to you.
silverwhisper said on Jul 11, 2007....
sorry, bordy--it's been a long, long time, man!

[hangs head in shame]

ed
Bordy said on Jul 11, 2007....
Damn right. And I may start posting here again, but don't want to have duplicate content with my real blog... then again, thats almost all tech stuff anyway.

Nobody called, nobody stopped by, /sniff.
bloc said on Jul 11, 2007....
hey bordy, I tried to send you a private message, but you have me blocked.
StupidGenius said on Jul 11, 2007....

I do get frustrated with religion and its followers, im only human after all. I speak from the heart. Because of this it is highly likely that people will be offended by my posts. To this end I am going to try to concentrate on my own blogs for a little while. I will try to make my stance on issues more clear. I will also try to explain why I have the views that I do. I hope those offended will read them even if it is just so that they may better understand my possition.

My next to blogs will be titled (Something like)

"Would we be moral without religious guidence?"

and

"The origin of religion"

keep an eye out if interested.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 11, 2007....

Thanks for blog ideas. you forgot to copy write them, mwa haha haha!
silverwhisper said on Jul 11, 2007....
SG: 1) yes, and 2) that should be interesting.

ed
truthsayer said on Jul 11, 2007....

Well bordy, I probably wasn't here when you were first here. I haven't "known" SeanR all that long : ) But I just checked out your other blog site and I plan on showing it to my son. He is the techno-guru of the family now ; ) But may I say, welcome back? And perhaps you can post on both blog sites. Thank you for your service to our country, and your protection of the likes of me, bordy.

bloc, you sounded pretty shocked and offended to me...but, I realize this is just a fancier form of 'print media' : )

lidstrom82, I have been on both sides of the road too. Some of my most confusing and hurtful moments were at the hands, or more accurately, the mouths of professing Christians. I have seen downright scandals too. It might have shaken my faith, and sometimes, for short periods of time, it may have...but ultimately, just like the ridicule we receive from most nonbelievers, riducule and persecution only serve to strengthen my faith. "What the enemy meant for harm..." So, I hear you.

Bloc and Sean and a few others perhaps, know my take on their 'old arguments'. I hope this discussion has helped them to see that there are indeed two sides, two plans, two influences, yes...but, that the Bible is available for all to see, read, and know; if they want to see 'our side'. Few will really take you up on it though...I'm sure you already know that. It cannot ever be fully understood without the Holy Spirit though. The Spirit often will allow them to have some insights though, that help them to have one of those beautiful revelatory moments, intended to tell them...I am here, I understand you, and My arms are wide open.

Frankly, I wondered if it was me, that you thought was a 'holier than thou' Christian : ) since I addressed you in a comment, and you either missed it, or ignored it. I have a choice to make when I read the writings of Christians, and nonChristians alike...believers and unbelievers...and I choose not to be offended. I still say, welcome back lidstrom82, and, I hear you.

SG, I will see if the Spirit leads me to those blogs of yours ; )

Hey bloc, wanna learn, or be educated about faith? ; ) I liked the way you restated your position much better friend. : )

Gotta run...I've got a blog to write!

Love you guys...all of you.

truthsayer
bloc said on Jul 11, 2007....
"bloc, you sounded pretty shocked and offended to me"

I wasn't shocked by his insulting language towards me, that's normal in these debates. I was shocked that he would be so insulting then later complain that I was insulting him. The insult didn't bother me, but the complaint about me did :)
StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

People of religion cant handle criticism of their faith. The bible states...

"You must kill those who worship another god." Exodus 22:20

"Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy" 13:6-10

"Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah." Mark 6:11

I’m not saying that people of faith go around murdering people because they don’t believe in god... wait... come to think of it.... many of them do. Ill quote historical examples of this if necessary.

SG
RollingC said on Jul 17, 2007....
Was that from a King James Version or from another ?
StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

Pre king James.

King James version says "He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

SG
silverwhisper said on Jul 17, 2007....
SG: um...the language usage looks distinctly too contemporary to be pre-KJV. are you sure you don't mean post-KJV?

ed
StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

Yes sorry, I meant post.... funny though I was just reading some translations of 22:20. So many different versions when it comes to the translation... Is it possible that the bible started off talking about a man and his mates having a party of some kind? lol. Look at these...

He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. King James Version 1611, 1769

He who sacrifices to any god, except to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. New King James Version 1982 Thomas Nelson

Anyone who sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed. New Living Translation 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

I could go on... funny isn’t it. Oh and after all that I can’t remember where I found that quote, still message is the same.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
You should know, SGenius, that in many Christian circles, the King James version is probably the most notorious for being a goofy translation. That one will probably give you the most cannon fodder, but anyone quoting it makes them sound like someone from the Tudor dynasty.

You take instances of God's wrath through what Christians have done in history and conclude that such a God is not only fictional, but if He were real, He is aat times barbaric and jealous.

If you get hot and bothered in discussions, just try creating a race of people that don't give you any credit and chase after other gods. That would test anyone's patience.

One thing to understand is that in your points SGenius, human beings have to be responsible for what they do. Anyone who declares war in the name of God is a liar, because Jesus made it clear that anyone who lives by the sword will die by the sword. Before Jesus, God related to us differently. That included establishing Israel as a nation and wiping out the wicked people who inhabited the land God promised to them.

If there was human wickedness and rebellion against God, that is where you will find that God punished them. Like, say, sacrifices to other gods.

You do look at the Bible, and you do quote it, but there's almost always more to the story, SGenius.
bloc said on Jul 17, 2007....
"If there was human wickedness and rebellion against God, that is where you will find that God punished them"
You are hiding behind vagueness. Didn't God kill the first born son of a bunch of people just to prove his manliness? That doesn't sound very Godly to me. Are you suggesting that a bunch of children deserved to die because of their parents religious beliefs? Does that even make sense?
silverwhisper said on Jul 17, 2007....
lidstrom, what translation do you favor for devotional purposes?

ed
lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
silver: I use the New International Version and more often the New Living Translation. I used to be all about the NIV, but I found that the wording could be occasionally confusing. I've read The Message also, but I've found a couple of instances where the verse's meaning was changed while they translated it into everyday, contemporary language. I don't think any translation is perfect, short of learning Greek and Hebrew and reading the original texts.

I hear you bloc, it does sound extreme. What you quoted of me does explain it, though. Are you referring to Egypt in the killing of the firstborn? God was punishing them and their Pharoah for enslaving God's people. That counts as wicked and rebellious in my book.

Again, it sounds extreme to slaughter children. It's a very controversial thing, to say the least (understatement, I know). If an older generation is wiped out, but the younger generations would grow to be just as wicked, if not more so, then it would call for their destruction if they would grow up to try to kill, enslave, or persecute God's people. Only a God with knowledge of the future could know the future wickedness of a generation of children, theoretically.

I won't lie, sometimes we Christians read the Bible and have to give God the benefit of the doubt, so to speak. Did we live in those times? Did we see what kind of wickedness warranted their destruction? No...but that doesn't make it false, or a lie.

Faith is blind in a way, yes...but to a Christian, faith is being certain of what we do not see. That's the whole point - we're rewarded for having faith in an invisible God. Jesus said "blessed are those who do not see and still believe." He said that to one of his disciples after Jesus was resurrected, who had doubted Jesus' return until He saw Jesus in the flesh, in person, and only believed Him because he saw Him. That's not easy for anyone for grasp, but I believe that Jesus was the ultimate force of good that this world has ever, or will ever, know.
silverwhisper said on Jul 17, 2007....
lidstrom: thank you. i had a feeling you were a parallel bible-kinda guy. :>

ed
lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
parallel-bible kinda guy? lol...that's a very humorous term :) You really get more perspective in knowing more translations, because they each hold each other accountable in a way...if a few core translations say the same thing, it's easier to see one that deviated enough from the text to cause confusion. But I haven't seen much in which the meaning has completely changed (except one instance with The Message).

But you could sum up the Bible in five words:

We screw up. Jesus saves.
silverwhisper said on Jul 17, 2007....
lidstrom, you might find this blog entry of mine of some interest. :>

ed
bloc said on Jul 17, 2007....
"We screw up. Jesus saves."

I worry that this philosophy teaches the opposite of personal responsibility.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
bloc, you're referring to "cheap grace", i.e. that people can do whatever they want because the forgiveness of God is a safety blanket. That is something as old as the Bible itself, and indeed the epistles (letters that Paul wrote to various churches, that make up a great deal of the New Testament), dealt with false religions, immorality, twisting the Word of God, and they definitely spoke out against taking advantage of God's grace. "God cannot be mocked." - He knows where our hearts and minds are.

You point out a very old problem, bloc, and because of sin I think it will remain until Jesus returns. No one can say they believe in God, then participate in all manner of sin Saturday night...only to dress up and appear pious the next day.

Keep in mind, because no one is perfect, you could say there's always some degree of hypocrisy. But that's a consequence of free will and our more selfish desires.

So yeah, people could say that Jesus saves, so they can do whatever they want. But they are ignoring what the Bible says on the matter, and so they look foolish for not knowing enough about their faith to know what they do is wrong.

In the end, it's not the fact that Jesus saves that encourages a lack of personal responsibility - it's what humans do in response.
bloc said on Jul 17, 2007....
@lid
well put and I understand it perfectly. I was also referring to things outside of the spiritual realm. I feel that this "cheap grace" is the easy road to take and that it bleeds over to other realms. Maybe if we elect the right president, and let him do whatever he wants (constitution shmonstitution) we will be safe. We should trust him, he's hte president, and he'll keep us safe.

I'm going to go off on a tangent, but I remember a deistic description of original sin as our inherent laziness and greed. Part of that is wanting people to solve our problems for us (or for them to magically go away) because it's a lot easier than being responsible. I know that isn't what is meant by "jesus saves", but it's an easy tool for the lazy rationalizer.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
Yeah, that's a really good insight, bloc. I hadn't thought of that in terms of the president. He should not have cheap grace from us, in a sense...there needs to be accountability, whether it's someone in power, or a Christian in church.

This isn't directed at you, but I've seen people bash the president repeatedly, but exhibited laziness in presenting an alternative. We do want people to solve problems for us, but if someone abuses that power, will we be too lazy to solve the problem ourselves?

I take comfort personally that although many use "jesus saves" as an escape clause for justifying and rationalizing their behavior, again, God cannot be mocked. I know that no one will get away with insulting God, or of secret wrongdoing to others, even if they take those secrets to the grave. Justice will be done, and I don't mean banishing bad people to hell.

I have to be careful of laziness myself, because at the church I work at (I do all the graphics and posters and stuff with another dude), there is a heavy emphasis not on going out like soldiers and converting people, but to love them and to explain where that love comes from. It's easy to be like "Yea, church!" and watch all this love getting spread around without my participation. I can't be lazy like that. It does happen, and I have to be honest with myself and admit that, and ask forgiveness of God. I have to repent of that - to confess, which is not just saying "I'm sorry" but committing to turning around and turning away from the laziness or sin I committed.

The cure to cheap grace is an honest, repentant heart that is earnestly seeking to grow closer to God, not to justify wrongdoing. Bloc, I think that deistic description of original sin is pretty accurate because it doesn't point out just the stuff that people DO wrong..it points at the good things people DON'T do.
StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

Ok let’s look a little closer at Jesus.

Attributes of other saviours in recorded history before Jesus was even spoken of.
1. Born of a virgin on December 25th
2. Stars appeared at their births
3. Turning water into wine
4. Cast out demons
5. Performed Miracles
6. Transfigured before followers
7. Rode a donkey into the city
8. Celebrated communal meal with Bread and wine (which represented saviours flesh and blood)
9. Killed on a cross or a tree
10. Descended into hell
11. Resurrected on third day
12. Ascended into heaven to forever sit beside his father god and become divine judge.
Any of the above sound familiar when looking at the story of Jesus? The early church leaders had problems from the pagans at the beginning because the pagan said that everything that they had said about Jesus had already been written about Dionysus and Hercules so it’s nothing new. The religious church apologists then stated...

"For when they say that Dionysus arose again and ascended to heaven, is it not evident that the devil has imitated the prophecy?" Justin Martyr Church Father.

So the church claimed that although nearly everything written about Jesus was the same or similar when you look at the story of Dionysus and Hercules it was the devil that had predicted the story of Jesus and tried to confuse the people before the story was even written. Are you Serious?

Look up the stories of Osiris, Mithra or Dionysus. They pre empted the story of Jesus and are extremely similar. The church doesn’t often have to explain this because the aforementioned are long buried in the history of religion. There is also the claim that these stories came from the jewish sect which create dthe old testament, if this is the case then the pagen gods had already been named and written about before Jesus had been named and written about.

I would be interested in your views on this.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
Since Jesus is real, that would make Satan real as well, and Satan hates all creation mainly because it was God who created it. And we're the prime targets, being the pinnacle of creation.

Satan would be pretty slick to convince humanity that their Creator is not the only true god. That all the extraordinary things God has done in people, miracles, and in Jesus were not that special, but have also been done in other ways by other people. And if eternity after this life depended upon it, humanity would have an awful lot to lose if they believed in the wrong god.

How can we tell for sure that other religions and mythology didn't glean all this from Christianity? Comic books retcon the origins and traits of long-known superheroes; who says the people of Jesus' time didn't do the same for Osiris, Dionysius, and the like, even though they were already well-known at the time?

Besides, there is prophecy in the Old Testament that points to Jesus' return. It wasn't just Jesus' life that was chronicled in the Bible. There are tons of prophecies about how Jesus would come to Earth, and what would happen, written hundreds of years before He actually arrived. I believe the book of Isaiah has some of the clearest examples.

Those are my initial thoughts - let me look deeper into the topic for the sake of discussion.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 17, 2007....

Well assuming you don't take the Bible as 100% fact then the existance of Jesus doesn't prove Satan, though for the sake of this debate I won't focus on that.

Your second paragraph is right, though it isn't at all rooted in reality. First even the Bible acknowledges on at least two separate and distinct cases that there are either other "real" Gods or that Magic in fact exists. The staffs to snakes in Egypt and the Witch and Endor.

We can tell that other religions didn't copy Christianity because the other religions existed and were documented first. You've pretty much asked how do we know that William Shakespear didn't copy Romeo Must Die with Jet Li when he wrote Romeo and Juliet.

The prophesies speaking of Jesus are rather vague, and many don't believe that the criteria were met. That said I don't know what in the OT points to Jesus' return, rather than his arrival in the first place.

Nor can I find much Biblical reference to Satan being filled with hatred. Hell as I point out in a much earlier blog http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/17932/The-Devil-isn%27t-evil it is rather difficult to make Satan out to be the bad guy.
StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

Good point sean.

I will look forward to hearing your thoughts lidstrom.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
Great thoughts to discuss, Renaud.

I think it's very debatable which religion exactly came first, and what religion borrowed from whom. But that will take more research on my part. Same with the Old Testament prophecy. It is there, I'll find specific examples at some point.

About the staff to snakes and the Witch of Endor: Pharoah's magicians did copy some of the signs that God did through Moses (particularly the staff). There are spiritual powers other than God, but if they're not from Him, we shouldn't be messing with it.

Also, Saul screwed up badly by consulting the Witch of Endor rather than trusting in God, and that was largely responsible for his downfall. it was clear he was in the wrong for doing so.

Witchcraft and magic are identified as wicked things in the Bible, and drives people away from God. I think the main reason why is because it offers controllable power for ourselves, rather than letting god work supernaturally through people to heal and bless others.

In the Bible, it is extremely clear that Satan is evil. Apparently he was the highest ranking angel, but upon learning that God intended humanity to be the crown jewel of creation, Satan (then called Lucifer - or bringer of light) became arrogant and jealous of us, got a good portion of angels to challenge God, and a spiritual battle occurred, resulting in Satan being banished from Heaven with his fallen angels. Talk about humiliation. Satan certainly has a motive for screwing with the human race.

I think fallen angels, or demons, tempt us with less than noble thoughts. They can possess human beings (it is somewhat possible a select few mental illnesses can be attributed to demon possession, but how do we know for sure?), appear as deceased loved ones to deceive the aggrieved, and basically anything else that would encourage love for God and of others. That would include posing as gods themselves, to be worshipped.

In fact, Scripture details "sons of God" that became enamored with human women, and took human form to enjoy them. They are fallen angels known as Nephilim, and they existed before and after the Flood. The Bible says that they were the famous heroes of old..possibly hinting that they could have inspired most known mythology of the ancient world.

The devil tempts, lies, and deceives, and one such tactic is making himself out to be "not so bad." He comes disguised as "an angel of light," but in reality "your enemy, the devil, prowls like a roaring lion, seeking whom he will devour." Devour as in, destroying men's souls with immorality, depravity, or even skepticism of God. The possibility that a powerful, unseen enemy wants to eff up our lives should scare the crap out of people. Besides, you don't have to consciously admit Satan's existence to go along with him; if you deny God's existence, Satan's done most of his job.

But that's the reason for Jesus; so that our enemies will not overcome us. That's why Jesus is vital, why His resurrection means so much.
StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

Jesus's existance or validity a an entity of any kind is at best questionable. The same goes for satan and the spiritual battle you speak of.

The time line goes something like this...

Tribel sects

Tribal sect/jewish progression with old testament

Many other "Sons" of a "god or gods" (name already provided in this blog.)

Then jesus appears coincidently with the same attributes and story of previouse "Son(s)" of god.

To me it is all un-reliable.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 17, 2007....

Ah so you trust the books that the Church denied as cannon. Not that I have a problem with that, I am just trying to establish the fact that the chapter with angels mating with humans and that stuff isn't in the "real" Bible, it's like the Gospel of Judas (which makes for interesting if sad reading.)
lidstrom82 said on Jul 17, 2007....
That timeline is hotly disputed, SG. I don't think it's impossible, but it's not nearly the "true story" that your wording makes it seem.

I trust the books the church denied as canon? I got that bit about the Nephilim from Genesis, dudeness. I know the Catholic church accepts some texts that Protestant churches don't, and I don't immediately rule them out as evil. At the same time, the Council of Nicaea apparently didn't think them vital to biblical canon, but I have to doublecheck that.

The accepted biblical canon contains some pretty controversial stuff, so it's not like they played it safe. For instance, the Song of Solomon in the Old Testament is some of the most erotic literature you're likely to find, and indeed many churches have tried to exclude it. Many Christians that are read passages of it often get shocked that it's from the Bible. But it shows a good biblical picture of marriage that is actually far from puritanical modesty/rigidity. In short, one can conclude that sex was designed by God for husband and wife, and is at its best in a marriage because it is intimacy plus commitment, and that commitment brings safety and comfort to an act that often leaves us vulnerable to another human being, being naked physically and bare emotionally, too.

That's a fun little tangent on God's true view of sex, but hey, there's more to the book than meets the eye.
StupidGenius said on Jul 18, 2007....

The old testament evolved from other more primitive forms of religion. Other gods were worshipped before the old testament was written. Do you deny those pre-old testament gods existed or are you of the opinion they are false gods.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

The Song of Solomon is not THAT erotic. Seriously, it might have been racy one hundred years ago. Stay up and watch something on HBO past ten o'clock. I'm sick and tired of that bs.

That said I'll re-check it I don't remember the Nephlim in Genesis any more than I remember Lillith in the cannon Bible. Just because something was excluded by the council (to me) doesn't mean that it null and void, it doesn't even mean that you are picking and choosing, I was merely trying to establish if you are using those texts or not because it does change the parameters of a discussion.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
I'm definitely of the opinion that they are false gods. By that I don't mean false as in "imaginary", but either fallen angels in human form (Nephilim), or demons in the spiritual world that grant power or knowledge to humans in an effort to undermine God and cut that person off from Him.

I agree that other gods were worshipped before the OT was written (it is generally accepted amongst a number of biblical scholars that Moses wrote the Pentateuch; before he wrote those books, those events had to have transpired already, and Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy contain God's laws for establishing his civilization, and consequences for disobeying Him - and usually those consequences came from disobedience, usually from worshipping other gods. The Golden Calf comes to mind, as do the magicians of Pharoah's court. They were not God's chosen people, but they still disobeyed God.

I do disagree that the Old Testament was evolved from primitive forms of religion, because within it contains specific instructions from God NOT to mix with other religions. If it came from a group of divinely inspired writers, it is what it is. When God's people in the Old Testament started mixing and matching who they worshipped, and adopted primitive religions in any way, God punished them. So no, I don't buy that it is a compilation of the best of other religions.

Again, a sly enemy doesn't necessarily attack you head-on, but seeks to undermine, discredit, and destroy you from within. I believe Satan does that with a human soul. But remember, while that is hard to see or observe, Christians pose the greatest threat, and they come under the most scrutiny from Satan. Therefore, nonchristians aren't going to suffer very much; some of them are already deceived.

Tangent alert: the great irony with that in our current day is that radical Islam is doing the same thing with America. They do not fight us on a field of battle, but blow themselves up anonymously in populated areas of their own land, to kill those of other religions. Terrorist cells exist in the United States in nearly every major city, and they study us, find our weak points, and attempt to take our land because it is their right to dominate as followers of Allah. Again, attacking from within. This is a more insidious type of invasion than any Japanese or Nazi scheme from wars past. They are going about this much the way Satan does; they both undermine from the inside out, and they hardly appear to be a threat until it's too late. Thing is, most of the reason Islam is doing this is because they see US as the Great Satan.

Is Islam in itself evil? No...but I believe it's a false religion that has been at odds with Christianity and Judaism since the days of Isaac and Ishmael. Check out Genesis and what happened to Abraham and his wife Sarah; they grew impatient with waiting for Sarah to get pregnant, so Abraham slept with his wife's maidservant and gave birth to Ishmael. He was predicted to be at odds with himself, and his brothers. I think that since Abraham didn't trust God to bless them with a child by Sarah, Ishmael was not a blessing. It was only when Isaac was born that Abraham saw that God is faithful. It could be true that the entire Arab nation was borne from Ishmael, and it perfectly explains the millennia-old hatred and strife in the Middle East; a religion-fueled blood feud older than the Bible itself. But the Bible also says that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all children of Abraham, and thus they have a common bond. Hopefully that bond will take root and quell some of the violence in the Middle East. I know this is going to be controversial, but I'm afraid that Muhammed was not a true prophet, or a divine being. The main reason is because the Koran holds Jesus in high esteem, but He was not resurrected, and He was not the Son of God. Instead, Jesus is a great prophet of Allah.

However, the Jesus said specifically that "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." In other words, Islam can't pigeonhole Jesus in a box. He wasn't just a prophet that fit into the story of Muhammed and Allah; He's the savior of mankind. So for that reason, I don't trust the Koran will instruct life-giving, harmonious lessons to its readers, especially in terms of Christianity and Judaism.

At church this past weekend, we had 3 ex-terrorists that became Christian, and they spoke about what their life was life as terrorists. They told us about how they grew up in Islam, and were taught that Allah favors the warrior. They were taught that to die as a martyr for Allah would bring Allah the greatest glory. So they got recruited into terrorist organizations - one of the speakers was only 7 years old when he participated in a bombing in Israel - and eventually, through different circumstances, they were told about Jesus and they realized that their life of militant Islam did not provide grace and peace. They no longer wanted to live by the sword, so to speak.

I only heard one of the three speakers because I had to leave to print more church bulletins (we had fifteen hundred people come on a Saturday night to hear these dudes speak, it was huge and awesome), but the one I heard in person was the guy who became a terrorist at age 7. He recruited his neighbor of the same age to go and fight for Allah by killing Jews. He never thought twice about killing someone that was not of his lifestyle and worldview. But he heard a preacher talking to a man on the street, and he challenged him to explain what the preacher meant about Jesus, and when threatening the man with death, the preacher simply explained that Jesus offers hope for your life. To a man who had killed many and had a lot of blood on his hands, hope was something revolutionary when you woke up thinking about killing others - and thus ending their own hope.

He contacted the preacher again that night (again threatening his life and that of another if the preacher didn't tell him more about Jesus), and when he met the preacher, the preacher laid it out clearly what Jesus said. The Terrorist confessed to God that night and threw his pistol away...the same pistol he killed with.

Once his family and mosque found out, they excommunicated him. Now, with Islamic law, excommunication means you have 3 days to confess your error and return to Islam - or else you're put to death. He fled to Canada, and now he speaks to Muslims living in Canada about the danger of Islam, and its shortcomings. He offers the alternative of Jesus to them. In response, he has been stabbed, his car and his home have been firebombed, and his lifestyle of sharing Jesus has incited so much violence from Muslims that the government had tried to take his family away for their safety.

Why does someone just pull a 180 like that? They grew up to love Allah by hating and seeking to kill infidels such as Jews or Americans. Yet when Jesus is plainly shared to them, they stop an entire lifetime of other teaching to embrace the Truth. Not only embrace it, but flee your homeland because of persecution, and spread the same message to the those of the same Islamic faith. On top of that, the guy isn't speaking to the homeless or elderly - he's talking to people that, according to their religion, should be dead. And they've tried to kill him.

What makes a person do that? Remember, he is no longer a Muslim extremist who will kill others in the name of "Allah." He is going around, simply speaking. Why should he die for speaking to people? It's what he's saying. And he's willing to risk his life for it. He lived the type of religion that is poison, and in finding a relationship with Jesus, he is trying to convince his fellow people of that same poison, and offering them the Truth.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
Hey Renaud, put the guns down man. Just because HBO desensitizes people doesn't mean the Song of Solomon is vanilla by today's standards. Besides, it's mostly metaphor for explicit stuff. It's shocking for a holy book, but it doesn't have the desensitized explicit nudity or rampant sexual presence of our media. Your comments speak as a whole for what we consider acceptable today, and today's standards are sad. We are desensitized to things that should be explicit. In essence, it is easy to criticize Song of Solomon when our society's media mind is in the gutter.

Genesis 6:1-8. Nephilim, bro.

I understand the nature of including noncanonical books into the discussion, but Nephilim are in Genesis, so we're still in canon.

Renaud, I think I'm seeing hostility in you. What's the deal, man?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

       So no, I don't buy that it is a compilation of the best of other religions.

       Despite a mountain of facts that very little of the Bible hadn’t been recorded elsewhere first.

       I’ve done, particularly for me a surprisingly good job of keeping my claws sheathed. Religion, the whole of it pisses me off and the more I hear people rationalize and make excuses for how this is misinterpreted, or that is taken out of context. No matter how many examples I dig up through the Bible of this that or the other people usually with no evidence (read anything by Shiningstar) of why they believe what they believe.


HBO isn’t the beginning of hardcore. The Song of Solomon is rather vanilla by today’s standards. It is shocking because of the surrounding material, and even then only in a sorta we get our fair share of violence but really very little sex. Our societies media is in the gutter? Once again only from a puritan point of view. There is no solid reason to think that anything with our media is making us worse rather than better. You can talk all you want about STD’s and teen pregnancy but then you have to answer why Europe, Canada, Japan and Mexico where they’re Saturday morning cartoons and Seasame Street would get censored before being put on HBO or Mtv don’t have these problems. They are also (save Mexico) all secular nations. The short answer is we know what causes teen pregnancy is pushing misinformation like abstinence only. Also I stand corrected on the Nephilim. Odd how I’d forgotten that part.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
I don't say this out of anger, Renaud, but I do think you fail to see just what effect the media has on us in general. If it continually depicts things that aren't beneficial for humans in general, people are going to think differently, if not emulate what they see. The very sexual messages that make the Song of Solomon seem vanilla are exactly the kind of messages that the media sends. Avoiding media's effect, or assuming it doesn't have a negative effect, is not a wise decision, especially when our children do so much to follow that they see in music videos, movies, cartoons. Not all of it is bad, but media messages can be powerful. And not all of it is good.

And no one can underestimate a contraceptive with a 100% success rate - abstinence.

What is it about religion that pisses you off, Renaud? If a perfect God creates the entire world, and mankind is imperfect by nature, don't you think we're going to misunderstand or misinterpret what that God says in the Bible? Is it really impossible to think that if God is real, then some of us are going to get it wrong?

I pray for patience for you in terms of religion, because Christians with a real relationship with Jesus have a personal proof that no one else does. If you want proof, seek God for yourself. But keeping your claws sheathed is a good idea, because the majority of America does believe in a God, even if it's not necessarily the Christian one, or whether they "got it right."

The best proof for anyone is to go where God is worshiped, and where He is working. If no one is willing to do that, then you'll never have your proof, generally speaking. And if you're not willing to do that, then how can anyone conclude religion is garbage?

Christians must have a reason for the hope they have in Jesus; the Bible tells us to. And if anyone believes in anything, they must also have a reason for it. That is true blind faith. But faith in Jesus is not blind if He works in the lives of those that believe in Him. To them, that is proof enough.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

Like I said if people were really emulating the media why is America more violent and with more STD's and more teen pregnancies than our neighbors who's media makes ours tame?

You can't underestimate abstinance, what you can prove though is that it goes against human nature. People who have only been taught abstinance are unaware of how to protect themselves when they step outside of that realm and thus they make more mistakes than those who were taught abstinance as well as other forms for birth control.

Actually no, I think that a perfect God would be able to communicate to imperfect people. Harvard professors do it each and every day. That said it's possible that some people might make some mistakes but not so many mistakes that if you ask any two people the answer is slightly different. Not so much that people can't even decide if Christians are supposed to lay down and die as matyrs when threatened or pick up the sword and defend themselves. Anything written that vaguely (and the Bible isn't vague but I'll be damned if Christians are capable of some radical leaps of rationalization) shouldn't be used as a life guide.

The majority of people once believed the world was flat and the Sun revolved around us. So uh, majority rule doesn't count for much.

I've been (and was raised) in the Chuch, I've been there and seen the sheep and once believed.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
What changed that made you leave the church?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

I grew up. Too many questions, to few answers. To many contradictions.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
I've seen that happen. Is it that the church you went to didn't have the answers, didn't represent Jesus very well? That definitely happens too. Were there just lazy, crappy Christians attending/leading it?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

I don't know, I don't think so. Up and until she died I had a very good relationship with the the leader of the Choir, even called her my Aunt. I wore the necklace she gave me up until I lost it in Iraq. I was pretty cool with the Pastor for years too.

I'm certain there are better ways to represent any given religion than the way I was shown it so but I cant say anything particularly negative about any of them.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
That's great that you have fond memories of the people there, the previous leader of the choir and knowing the Pastor for awhile. And it doesn't sound like they gave you a terrible view of Christianity. Would you ever go back to that church?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

I moved. If not I'd probably still attend Bible Study, they did a thing called Wenesday Night out, big pot luck every week. Eventually got cut down to once a month but I'd probably attend if it were nearby.
StupidGenius said on Jul 18, 2007....

Sean when you give up drugs it is possible to relapse :)

Religion is contradictory, full of excuses, segregatory, fiction and a terrible guide for people seeking to learn how to be moral. It continues becauese it claims to have all the answers and because it is imbred by families.

I have a son due to be born in november and I will make sure that what ever happenes he has the clear choice to believe in what he wants. Bible camps are a terrible terrible tragedy in my eyes.

Why do people look at children and say, "Oh thats a jewish kid" or "oh that kids Christian" A kid isnt anything until it has grown up and decided for itself what it wants to be. Religion catches kids when they are young and then they grow up with blind faith and no understanding of reality or factual evidence when it comes to religion.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
That's a sweeping generalization, SG, in that not all churches baptize and keep a kid emotionally and spiritually strangled. Most of my friends who belong to a denomination-that-must-not-be-named have more than a little cynicism for the very beliefs they hold dear. It's a weird thing.

My church dedicated babies but leaves baptism to be a clear choice for the child. Ideally, a parent will instruct the child about God and other alternatives, and they make the decision themselves.

But I do heartily disagree about the malevolent, or downright sneaky practices of religion that you speak of, SG. You hit the nail on the head with some, but completely missed with others.

Renaud, there is no life in considering going back to church as a relapse. I understand where SG is coming from, but the fact is that there are churches that do none of the things SG refers to. I would encourage you to get reconnected at a church somewhere, not just because of "God reasons", but because of connecting and having friendships and relationships that encourage you in good things, and hold you accountable to avoid bad things. A small group bible study is the kind of group that supports and corrects us, the type of people that will pray for your needs no matter how big or small, and can step in and provide your needs, whether you get sick and go to the hospital and they get you cards or flowers or bring you meals, or if you're short on cash for paying the bills and they all pitch in to help you out. That last example happened with me and my wife when we most needed it. Stuff like that is tangible and real and something you don't ever forget. It would also help to get to know people who are considered "religious" but don't spew the worst parts of dogma at you.

If you have a chance, find an area church and see what they have. Not every church has it right, but there are many benefits to it. You can choose.

Hey SG...if you're referring to bible camps as in "Jesus Camp", I shudder at that kind of stuff. It is less of God and more of an ultraconversative movement to aggressively recruit children to take over the White House, political arena, and every other kind of society. It's like a more peaceful version of Islam.

What works is loving relationships, and sharing Jesus' love that way. If you love a person and they ask you why you do, then you can truthfully tell them that just as Jesus loved you, Jesus loves them as well. That way it's not an ultimatum, or a pressure-filled situation. It's an honest answer to an honest question. Every other tactic or strategy for spreading faith really comes across as manipulative or forceful. But having good relationships with others is the best thing you can do, and it's improved when Jesus is the reason you love them, because you are loving with God's love, and that is much needed when you are trying to love someone and they're throwing it back in your face. Your patience will run out at some point. Asking God to fill you with love is a power that is greater than imprisonment, torture, and murder, because even if you have everything taken away, and you sit alone in a stinking jail cell, you know you have a reward in Heaven, and that this life is brief compared to eternity with God. That sounds silly until we find ourselves alone in some way or another.

Renaud, there's great good in connecting with people who have such love.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 18, 2007....

That's a sweeping generalization, SG, in that not all churches baptize and keep a kid emotionally and spiritually strangled.

While it might be possible to find such a thing, churches that encourage you to question your beliefs or explore other religions are few and far between. I don’t have to force feed you pro American Propaganda everyday to keep you from moving to England.
.
I understand the “relapse” thing and I don’t really think there is much chance of it. If I didn’t relapse in the military it’s not bloody likely. That said I do miss the support group thing, but I don’t like people that much so I’ll deal. You do make a solid point though. I’ve checked out a few of the local churches (granted it was years ago with my parents) all of them were gross time sinks.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 18, 2007....
Wow bro, I also struggle with just being around people for the sake of interacting. I do well enough, but I don't go out of my way to have awesome interactions. But being that I'm in a church every day, I see pros and cons to it. Part of me definitely wishes to be more connected, while part of me wants my own space.

I would encourage you to take a step right now, and not go by years-ago experiences, in the interest of giving yourself a support group. Give it another chance, Renaud. I understand the "connecting with people" part can be weird, but that kind of support is invaluable.
shiningstar said on Jul 18, 2007....
Just one small comment here. One post quoted Jesus as saying "I am the way, the truth and the Light". Any one ever tried to give their I AM away????>Try and make a sentence that applies to someone else using only I AM. The point is that Jesus came to free people from religion and show them the power that is within them selves. The I Am is singular to and for every entity and is to be applied as such. Personal Self. Which was always what Jesus taught the people.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 19, 2007....
shining: "It's the way, the truth and the life." Just an FYI :) But He is also the Light of the World, so the concept still applies.

I remember, I THINK it was Scottie Pippen or Charles Barkley or even both, that were in commercials with the catchphrase, "I jam, therefore I am." Yeah, I thought that was dumb even before I became a Christian and realized "I am" was in reference to God.

You're right about Jesus' purpose. People need to accept the Bible as a whole. It may have minor errors in terms of dates, but it IS perfect in what it accomplishes: informing and sustaining a knowledge and faith in God and of Jesus.

It's easy to make fun of someone who isn't there, and people take all sorts of liberties in discrediting God. But believe me, He hears you. It would be better to explore the possibility of God than to spend so much effort having blind faith that He doesn't exist.
StupidGenius said on Jul 19, 2007....

Relious people would do well not to keep refering to jesus. It is clear that jesus was inserted into the bible as a leading man becuase christianity needed one to rally the people around the christian faith.

Lidstrom, still no comment on the similarity between Dyonisis? Maybe you did comment or research it and i missed your comment.

The fact is if you believe in god then why dont you believe in the god as descibed in the earliest of religions, surely they are the gods that should be believed because they are the earliest ones in recorded history. Do you believe in the god of chritianity because it is more believable or becaue it is written about more etc? I would be interested to know why you deny earlier gods and what your reasoin for doing this is?

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 19, 2007....

Trust me lidstrom, you and Shiningstar are not on the same page, not even close.
shiningstar said on Jul 19, 2007....

I like the page that I am on sir. And I do wish that you could stretch your mind enough to be on it too but that is your choice . Instead of even attempting to learn something new you defend what you accept as fact. Facts change. The fact is the normal tmp is 98.6 but the fact is yours may be higher or lower at any given time.Both facts are equally true. I know what I teach is new but do you want to forever stay in the old???
shiningstar said on Jul 19, 2007....

I like the page that I am on sir. And I do wish that you could stretch your mind enough to be on it too but that is your choice . Instead of even attempting to learn something new you defend what you accept as fact. Facts change. The fact is the normal tmp is 98.6 but the fact is yours may be higher or lower at any given time.Both facts are equally true. I know what I teach is new but do you want to forever stay in the old???
lidstrom82 said on Jul 19, 2007....
Good questions, SGenius.

I did look into Dionysius a bit, read his Wikipedia deal. What I found was that there was a section on Dionysius regarding parallels to Christianity, and it mentioned most of the same points you shared. However, it also said the citation from that was needed.

Even more interesting, at the bottom of the page, the citation (18) was from a translation of the Bible! My guess is that they included it in the commentary and evidently had reason to believe that noting it didn't affect the Bible's credibility. At least they didn't get spooked by the similarities and try to cover it up.

Another thought to present is that it is entirely possible that Jesus performed miracles reminiscent of earlier mythological gods in order to show that His power was easily comparable to any other gods worshipped or known at the time. That would demonstrate His ability to access Father God's power (being God in the flesh) to show authority, while He also used that power to heal more people than the Bible could hold (it literally says this).

Taking the Bible at face value, the God of Creation is the only true god simply because He came first. Everything else that is worshipped is either a human being with supernatural power, or a spiritual being that is not God, either of which were created by God and therefore arrived later than He did. The Bible refers to fallen angels as "heroes and famous warriors of ancient times" in Genesis chapter 6. What if mythology actually had its roots in actual beings? Say, spiritual beings that took human form to take human wives as their own? A spiritual being would know everything "behind the scenes" that we don't see in the physical world, so their knowledge would be greater than that of a common man. That knowledge, perhaps, would be enough for them to be worshipped as gods without really being all-powerful or worthy of worship.

Just a comment here...a fabricated story is nothing to revolutionize religion, change the course of history, and base our methods of counting for days and years around. A fictional story has its limits in how it influences real life. God's imprint is everywhere, from our forefathers' intentions (though not all Christians, some were, and some were Deists nonetheless) to the money we carry in our pockets, to our judicial system, to the Pledge of Allegiance, to the root of our very names in many cases. To put in perspective, dozens of today's most popular names (John, James, Michael, Mary, Joshua, Samuel, etc.) have biblical origins. Dionysius (current form Dennis) has one, interestingly.

I don't think that lies or knock-offs of the truth change people for the better. I also don't think they stand the test of time. Mythological heroes (that might have been fallen angels, described in Genesis 6) are not at the center of major world religions for this reason, and while major religions do contain some truth, and their deities based upon actual beings, I don't believe them to have the influence or benevolence that Jesus Christ has.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 19, 2007....
How so, Renaud? What do you personally believe, shiningstar? Your comments seem to support Christianity, but I'd like to hear it from you first.

And hey Renaud, about the encouragement to join a support group or get connected at church, the offer's always on the table on my end to encourage that. That's also God's invitation to connect with others, something that's very important even though you and I don't necessarily warm up quickly to relationships in our separate lives.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 19, 2007....

Lidstrom and Shining answer the following questions honestly.

1. Is the God who created Adam and Eve, flooded the world and who fathered Jesus Christ the same entity?

2. Did Jesus Christ die to wash away our sins?

3. Was Jesus telling us to reject religion and look within ourselves for power?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 19, 2007....

Lidstrom and Shining answer the following questions honestly.

1. Is the God who created Adam and Eve, flooded the world and who fathered Jesus Christ the same entity?

2. Did Jesus Christ die to wash away our sins?

3. Was Jesus telling us to reject religion and look within ourselves for power?
shiningstar said on Jul 19, 2007....

Jesus came to show the people that life cannot be lived by any book, its rules or its laws. What works for one does not work for all. He came to free people from the un-natural lives that they were leading in following the old god jehovah. Jehovah sent them into war to take from others what they had worked for. He set them against all other people who wouldd not worship him. Religion is the way of spiritual death and it is no accident that most churches have cemetaries beside them. Life is supposed to be free and flowing from one wonderful experience into another. Religion seeks to stop the flow with judgement, condemnation and punishment. One who is truly free will do the greater things that Jesus said that all could do for if religion has its way that is the only way that you will be able to survive. That is how great the control is today.
StupidGenius said on Jul 19, 2007....

My point in its most simplistic form is this,

God as an ultimate being (you say) existed before everything. He/she created the earth and by definition must be of a complexity so unimaginable that he/she could not be comprehended in any terms by mere humans. If such a being exists then how did he come to exist in the form of complexity? The bible does not even come close to explaining how god came into existance it dosnt even touch on it and surely this is an important part of understanding and reasoning for him/her being able to create all that exists.

We are simply supposed to exept that he exists and that is that. We are simply supposed to put a complete and unwavering "Blind Faith" in the fact that he just popped into existance. The bible is at best unreliable. Anyone who has any sense can see that the bible does not knit together well and is a clear indication that the religion as a whole is unreliable, add to that fact its origin from the jewish religion, does it not mean that in the truest sense of religion most christians should be jewish because the faith that christianity relies on also relies on the fact that christianity is different to the jewish faith when infact it is simply just a different interpretation.

I dont think that anyone who believes in god can discount gods that predate judeism or christianity because to me that is quite a fundamentaly arrogant assertion. In effect, who are you to assert that your religion is the correct one based on the fact that there were many that existed before your own.

Religion as a whole is unreliable, unprovable and contradictory. It is not possible to prove gods existance but when something good happens you claim god did it. When something good happens to you, you claim god did it, when something bad happens you say god is testing us. Sorry but you could worship anything in the world and derive those same results becasue your faith tells you to simply relate the unknown event to god whatever happens.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 19, 2007....
Not to discount the time you took to explain that , SGenius, but I have heard that all before, and I believe I've answered nearly all of those points in various posts.

How much do you know of the Bible? How often do you read it?

As for your questions, Renaud, remember the Bible can answer them better than I can. A question I have for you is, are you asking to get our perspective, or are you asking to bait us into perceived contradictions? I ask because I have seen you hostile toward some conversations about this very topic.

Regardless, here goes. Be ready to read awhile, loaded questions get loaded answers!

1. Is the God who created Adam and Eve, flooded the world and who fathered Jesus Christ the same entity?

Yes, God is the same God. He Created Adam and Eve, and everything else, to love and enjoy Creation.

Unfortunately Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge, and although the serpent deceived them, it was ultimately their fault for doing what God told them not to do. They were taken from the Garden of Eden, Eve's pains in childbirth increased, and Adam was forced to scratch a living from the Earth as punishment. It must be noted God didn't immediately kill them off like a city gone wrong in a SimCity save file.

However, humanity got so wicked that it made God sorry that He created them. But Noah was bold and asked of God to save at least some. God did listen; or else we wouldn't be here. God set up rules of living, or worship, or relationships, in order to establish a civilization that was actually civilized. But Adam and Eve's original sin left the human race open to experience a harsh world and the effects of selfishness that God never intended for them. After the Flood, God promised He would not duplicate it again, a promise signified by rainbows which appear after the rain. (This is actually explained in the Bible). That could be proof to some of God's existence.

However, there are prophecies of what would happen. Jesus is referred to in the Old Testament, though not directly by name. Instead, prophecies were fulfilled by His life. If anyone wants to look for the Old Testament/New Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, Google it up and see for yourself.

As God's people disobeyed and were handed over to other empires, enslaved or abused, God still remained patient, and appointed a coming time when Jesus would come to Earth to establish a new covenant (agreement) with humanity.

All that's not a well-rehearsed story. It's a paraphrase/summary of the Bible.

2. Did Jesus Christ die to wash away our sins?

Jesus came so that we could have life, and life to the full. Not to just live a life by working, having some kids, doing whatever we want, and die. He knew that some things we do in life actually hurt us and those around us (extreme selfishness, drug/alcohol addictions, sexual promiscuity and immorality), and He lived a life as the perfect alternative to follow.

He knew He would one day be crucified; He told His disciples as much. But He knew that by being a man, walking among us, living as a human, and dying as a human, would allow Him to confront Satan and conquer death, and conquer sin. That takes some serious guts to know you will die brutally, and yet continue on. Jesus was still a man, though, and the Garden of Gethsemane the night He was arrested showed that He had great anxiety. This is a comfort for those who face persecution, death, and fear: their savior experienced them all just as they do, and so we don't have a distant God who can't relate to us. Jesus took the finite Earth and its people, and reconnected them with an infinite God.

See, the wages of sinning, even once, is death. Of course, that's impossible to do for us. But Jesus died to set us free from that penalty, and also remove the need for burnt offerings and other such rituals. Instead, under the new covenant, Jesus is what we trust in to follow God, not circumcision or eating habits or the like. Heaven existed before Jesus came to Earth, so it's not like Old Testament Jews were out of luck.

Jesus spurred on a fellowship of believers that has grown, been persecuted by empires and governments, and has continued to spread. There are brave men and women who share the same message Jesus did in places where they could be attacked, put in prison, tortured, and killed. But the reason why can do such things is because 1) they love their persecutors just as Jesus prayed for and loved His while dying on the cross, and 2) their reward in Heaven is peace and joy that Jesus opened the door to. Jesus' life allows not just the Jew to be saved while the rest of the world are wicked, but to point out that we are all wicked, yet we are all open to receiving salvation for belief in Christ.

3. Was Jesus telling us to reject religion and look within ourselves for power?

Jesus rejected the Jewish rituals and customs that the Pharisees upheld. They were supposed to be the priests and teachers that taught the people about God, but they had become stuffed with power, and rigid in the ways that God would work. Even today, you've got the Catholic church claiming that other churches suffer from the wound of not having a lineage of popes descended from the original disciples. The Bible is clear that God does not show favoritism. The Pharisees were whack like that, and Jesus continually rebuked them for trying to trap Him.

Think about it: you have supposedly the smartest guys in terms of God and Old Testament law, yet they twisted it so much that the Son of God was staring them in the face, and they could not see it. The Jews expected the Messiah for a long time, and expected Him to be a conquering hero to free them from Roman rule - and often, oppression. But Jesus came not as a political or military hero. He spoke in terms of healing the lowly. He hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors because they were considered the lowest of society - but due to Jesus, they are just as loved as a Christian who has gone on 100 mission trips. The Pharisees did not understand that, and sought to kill Him.

The reason I tell you all of this is because Jesus rejected the religion that the Pharisees championed, the old way of thinking, and their own selfishness and blindness to what God was actually doing.

One thing Jesus really preached about was the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom is one in which God rules over all people in Heaven, and Jesus told parables that related how faith would get us there.

The Bible relates it as this: we are saved by grace, through faith. In other words, by the grace of God, we can still sin and be saved because of our faith in Christ. Following Christ is consciously living a life that mirrors His; it's not just a "get out of hell free" card.

But how do imperfect people live like Jesus? By God's power. And that is what Christians call upon for strength and endurance in persecution, for wisdom in learning the Bible and sharing it with others, for love that Jesus had to us to give to others, and for discernment to identify what is right and wrong for our lives.

There is no inner power within a person other than that which God blesses us with. We have a personality, a soul if you will, that makes us unique to each other, but we have no inner power other than the abilities God already gave us. However, when Jesus was resurrected, He told the disciples that the Holy Spirit would come upon them after He ascended into Heaven, to guide them and teach them.

Now, the Bible never mentions a Holy Trinity, but God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all separately identified, but are spoken of as equal to each other. The Holy Spirit, in rudimentary terms, is our conscience, our very own Jiminy Cricket, as it were :) But it's much more than a well-dressed insect. The Holy Spirit does dwell in all believers, and the Bible says that without the Spirit, it is harder to understand the things of God, if not impossible.

How does one get the Holy Spirit? Confess Jesus as savior and pray to God about mistakes in your life. To turn away from them, and also to apologize to Him for speaking against Him. God is loving, indeed: he won't turn you into a grease spot for admitting faults. But for most it's too hard to admit them, or to believe that they have the forgiveness Jesus provided.

For people with the Holy Spirit, you can understand God better than you could without faith, and God blesses those with the gifts of the Spirit. These can be kindness, gentleness, truth, discernment, and others. People can speak in tongues, speak prophecy, heal with God's power, and other things.

Are people without the Spirit left out? No way...God works in the lives of people who are not aware or submitted to Him. If anything, God seeks us when we're not Christians, too...whether it's the person at work who encourages you just when you need it, or the dude on your blog that puts Jesus in every sentence :)

Speaking of Jesus, Christianity is referred to as a religion in the secular world, and often in Christianity itself, but it is really a relationship with Jesus. When Jesus ascended to Heaven, His disciples received the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts (as in, Acts of the Apostles) - and from there established the Christian church. A physical place to meet does not equal general religion as it's referred to by society as a whole. Nearly all of these disciples died, and all were persecuted. So why would they go through that much trouble to believe in anything that would get you killed? Only if it's the truth. There is a difference between dying for the truth and killing others (and yourself) for a lie (in one you have Christian martyrs, in another you have militant Islam martyrs).

So yes, Jesus renounced what humanity made of religion in His day, and Christians are wary of other faiths that distort Jesus, or deny Him altogether. What is religion in Christian eyes then? This: "Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing the let the world corrupt you." - James 1:26

But for faith to be possible, in James 1:22. "Don't just listen to God's word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves." That goes for Christians who might be lazy, but it also goes for anyone who looks to the Bible with a "prove it" mentality. Think of it this way: if you don't listen to the Bible, how do you expect to know better, even when God's words are shared with you? In this case, anyone questioning or seeking God can learn how to seek Him in the Bible. Asking others to prove it to you will be foolhardy.

In the end, the Holy Spirit guides those who will trust in God, and God's power is greater and more good than any other spiritual power out there. If religion means simply reading or hearing God and doing nothing, that's what Jesus rebuked. If it is loving others in need, then that pleases God.

Again, the Bible explains all these things better than I do. But one more thought: if the definition of religion being thrown around in this discussion is a man-made idea, then it won't help us understand God that much. Religious practices did nothing to help the Pharisees understand Jesus, and they got it all wrong - they had Jesus arrested and killed, only to discover their errors a few days later. "Religious" people incited a crowd against Jesus' disciples, also in the Bible, and that helped them just as little. So yeah, religion ain't a hill of beans if it isn't about the right thing.

I hope these thoughts are helpful in answering those questions.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 19, 2007....

I last read the Bible in 03. So it's been a while since I've completed it. While for comprehension purposes it must be read in order in its entirety, that tomb was never meant to consumed chronologically.

That said, go read Shiningstar's response, go read a couple of his posts. My questions were quite simply to clearly illustrate that not only are you and Shiningstar not on the same page, it's unlikely you're even reading the same books.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 19, 2007....
The last comment about it not being consumed chronologically...not sure I follow what you're referring to. Are you saying the order it's in wasn't originally intended by someone?

As for Shiningstar, I'll look into it.

Also Renaud, take a look at Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or any of the 4. It's really the most vital place to start for anyone looking at the Bible. It will help give you perspective on discussions, but mostly reading the Bible offers intangible blessing to me day to day: I really believe just by reading the words, God blesses me with people and circumstances and peace in a totally unconnected way. I would wish that for you and every single person, too. Peace.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 19, 2007....

The Bible is an extremely difficult read from cover to cover. Because of its odd combination of laws and stories much of it is nearly unreadable, there are pages dedicated to lineages.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 19, 2007....
Yeah I hear you. It takes patience, but the deeper you go, the better it fits together. For example, the book of Matthew starts out as the genealogy of Jesus from Abraham. That seems kinda boring, but it validates Jesus in terms of relating His presence to the Old Testament people that are His ancestors. Tracing back through the generations of the Old Testament and tying Him to Abraham is very significant when you consider that Abraham is a central origin figure in Judaism and Islam also.

And all the laws and customs laid down in the Pentateuch can be almost tortuous to read through, but it does explain how people used to relate to God before Jesus. Those rules God laid down to Moses and the Israelites may seem odd to us, but he was establishing a civilization, so concepts such as quarantine and strict rules of cleanliness we don't have to worry about due to advancements in hygiene...that stuff is hard to understand now, but again, it is good to see how we related to God before Jesus. It is also good to see Old Testament prophecy that foretold Jesus' coming, and it's also good to see the faith of those in the Old Testament, in overcoming overwhelming odds (David and Gideon), being delivered from execution (Daniel and the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace), prophesying to the people to repent and avoid God's wrath (Jeremiah, Isaiah), and other admirable acts of faith.

But starting at the beginning can be hard. Not impossible, but difficult. The Gospels explain how we relate to God NOW, so that's a good place to start, Renaud. Give it a try!
SeanRenaud said on Jul 19, 2007....

I have done that a few times. The New Testament is much more coherent as a whole, though the letters from Paul get a little dry but over all it's understandable reading, if not particularly thrilling.

I understand some of the differences in the laws. I don't usually bring them up unless they are very important to the debate in one way or another.
StupidGenius said on Jul 20, 2007....

I think the bible is a faily good read for a fictional book, The problems come when people preach it as being real or an actual account of history. It is not.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 20, 2007....
That's the problem, like The Perfect Storm or Schindler's List it is psuedohistory.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 20, 2007....
To the contrary, I think if you read it purely from a perspective of wanting to be entertained, you've missed the whole point. Why? Because the book is instructing its reader on how to live. If you discount that, then you're reading it as a spectator to whom the Bible doesn't apply. No wonder it can be dry reading! Fictional stories are at their best when the characters and events strike a chord with the reader. It's a good indicator why people dress up as Star Wars characters at conventions, movie premieres, even their own wedding. Or why millions of readers are in a frenzy over Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows being released tomorrow. Jesus told fictional parables that served as metaphors for faith, Heaven, God's love, and salvation, so that people could relate to things that they'd have trouble understanding otherwise. SG and Renaud: if you discount the Bible as merely fiction, it might as well be a closed book solely based on how you look at it. And SG, stating that the Bible is "not this" or "not that" as if it's fact neither helps your position, nor makes you a student of the Bible. You only know enough of the Bible to criticize it, and that's a far cry from everything it actually has to offer.
shiningstar said on Jul 20, 2007....
SR: If someone takes your words and changes them to serve their purpose does that make you the liar? If something does not make sense why is it some one elses job to make sense of something for you, personal self?Just because a different perspective was placed on the words and teachings of Jesus than what he intended does him no harm. he asked the people to comptemplate his words and if they had of done so they would know the truth. Instead they let the religious "experts" do the comptemplating and they put their spin on it.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 20, 2007....

No it doesn't make me a liar if somebody twisted my words. Thing is Shining that who twisted the words? You say time and time again that the authors of the Bible did it by weaving two stories together and other things. The Bible is also the only recorded proof of Jesus, so if the authors twisted it then it all becomes worthless because we have no way of knowing what was originally his and what was originally theres. You can't quote the bible when it makes sense to your world view and ignore the rest.

You want to throw out the old Testament? Fine. But to say that Jesus Christ didn't die to wash away our sins is to call the man a liar, a liar who frauded billions of people. You ignore that he said that not one of us is good enough to get into Heaven, that if we don't go through him we are all doomed because it doesn't fit your world view. You ask me to open my eyes. It is good to keep an open mind, but not so open that the wind blows through. That is what you've done.

You are so open minded that logic, facts, reason, for the most part even faith are lost on you. You know that the Scripture doesn't support your views. Honestly you must be a prophet because you're speaking insanity that nobody but you believes, I suggest you write a book. I wouldn't mind if Christainity magically turned into a bunch of people who believed in inner power and wanted to improve themselves and the world.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 20, 2007....
Shining: You're right, pretty often religious "experts" contemplate and put a spin on it, and spread that to the masses. If they are not accountable to God, they run the risk of teaching false things to people who might not filter it and think for themselves.

But remember, that's what Jesus uncovered in the Pharisees. They preached stuff that really didn't matter, and they twisted God's law into stuff that didn't help the people. Jesus set the record straight. And because of Him, we have access to God's power. There is no inner power within. Interestingly, many assume they don't have the strength to do certain things, but they honestly haven't tried. Thing is, Jesus heals hurts of people, and encourages them to do more than they could have otherwise. It takes faith to do something we're afraid to do, something we don't think we have the strength for. But Jesus gives us strength, and reminds us that the way God created us gives us ability as well.
shiningstar said on Jul 20, 2007....
Jesus did not say he came to die for peoples sins. I did not say or imply that I want to do away with the OT. The scripture does support my views. And I do have a book out. It is called Jesus or Jehovah and is available at Amazon.com. It has 181 Bible references. But one does not need a book to realize that one who says that they love all people and live a life based on that love and lives and teaches forgiveness is not the same as a self stated war-god. It is insane to continue to believe this story any longer.The OT is a record of Jehovah and how he claimed to create the world and all in it.It is also the record of how he tricked a people into leaving Egypt and going into a desert where he brutalized them until all were dead that could even remember another way of living. It is a record of Moses as he betrayed the people and turned against them and cast his lot with Jehovah. I did not change the words I only changed the accepted and taught version of the story.The new perception brings forth a new story that reads the words exactly as written so that an experience that is bad is understood as bad instead of the spin being put on it as wonderful. Abusors always blame their victims and in this story all have believed that the people were ever so bad but the reality is that they were being abused and their abusor was not someone good who loved them.
StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

The christians should have done what the muslims did, they burnt all scriptures and writings that didnt fit with the idea of their religion. If the christians had done the same their would be no debate on the contradictory nature of the bible.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 23, 2007....

In all fairness SG that was a fairly standard practice, burn scriptures, kill scholars. Destroy a culture entirely. Sadly such a thing is pretty much impossible today because if the information survives on one computer it can be back on the net and in millions of hands within days if not hours.
shiningstar said on Jul 23, 2007....

It is not the words; the information that impedes progress or learning. It is the mindset of the people who havebeen systematically programmed for thousands of years to believe in their unworthiness, their guilt and their lack of ability to do anything for themselves. It is the "one right way" of thinking and being that creates the Jehovah people who were called "pecular" that invaded all of the consciousness of all people. It is the ability to do the dirty work of the priests and religions without using their own innate logic and reason to find a better way to live and not murder and make war. It is the consciousness of always using ones power over another to disrespect them in any way and to hurt them for money , love , profit or just because you have the ability to do so. That is what must be ended before we can have a new world of love and peace that works for everyone every where. Joy to You.
StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....
Shining, I realise that you do not believe in the bible and I realise that you do not believe in religion. If that is so then why do you believe in god? from what do you draw your faith or reasoning for his existance? SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....
That's a fun thought Sgenius, about the Christians doing what the Muslims did. Just on that level, destroying the competition's holy texts might be helpful, if incredibly controversial :) But it's part of a package deal as far as Muslims go. Some of them preach peace, but the Koran also supports the terrorists who consider it an honor to die a warrior's death for Allah. They brutally murder hostages, and treat defectors from Islam even worse. Besides, wasn't burning books a trademark of the Nazi's?
StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

As you well know lidstrome, the nazis came after the birth of islam so i dont think they borrowed the idea. :)

Christianity also sanctions extreamist christians if they too wanted to blow people up. Christianity has alot of blood on its hands also.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....
It sure does...we can't judge a religion by its body count, because the common denominator are imperfect people who make bad choices.

And yeah, I wouldn't presume to know who originated the book-burning idea, maybe even Catholics who protested translation and distribution to the Bible to the common population, who knows. I didn't mean to suggest the Nazi's originated the idea, Muslims could have gotten the idea from someone else, for all we know. Burning books is better than burning people, though that's been done by both Christianity and Islam, pagan Roman Emperors and others.

Consider this, SGenius: we do have aggressive Christians out there. StrangeOne referred to a Christian theocracy happening soon. I don't agree with raising up children a la Jesus Camp, or making Christianity a political movement. I DO agree with the founding fathers' adherence to biblical values when establishing this country, and I believe the further away we get from that, the worse off we'll be. True, many of them were Deists and not true Christians in a sense, but they had a better ideal and framework due to trust in God. We enjoy that freedom today.

But Islam is spreading much more malevolently than Christianity is, SGenius. At the very least, from a point of view more aligned with yours, Christianity could be the lesser of two evils.

Islam could overtake our country in upcoming generations. It might not make much difference for the nonreligious if another religion becomes dominant, but what if that happens by aggressiveness and force? We're content to sit back and watch the Middle East continually tear itself apart, but what about the terrorist cells that plot attacks daily? I know you are skeptical of their role in 9/11, but what about 7/7 in London, the USS Cole bombing, the attempt at Heathrow, and the like? They hate us just for being American, let alone Christians or having Israeli or Jewish descent. This is more than just the Crusades centered around retaking holy land. This is about wiping the Western world off the face of the earth. And Muhammed's writings do condone that.

However, Jesus doesn't. The Bible holds accountable those that would be extremist Christians, even if some Christian leaders don't.
StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

We do have aggressive warmongering christians... MR Bush is one of them.

Jesus writings? Jesus didnt write anything, he was written about. He didnt write his own gospel he (If he existed which is highly unlikely) relied on other people to write it for him. Lazy or what! lol.

Just because islam is the more violent of religions at the moment dosnt give christianity the moral high ground. They spread their word by the sword also, islam just uses more up to date methods becasause they happen to be persuing their violent needs in this day and age.

If you want to get a good person to do a bad thing then you need religion because it directly sanctions it.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....
Islam the more violent religion at the moment? How about throughout its entire existence?

Say what you will about Jesus, but His influence in our modern history is undeniable. You apparently don't trust His disciples to record anything of His life accurately, yet you entrust many of your views to a select few who originated concepts of natural selection and evolution, and those who have elaborated/corrected them over time. Why can't you accept knowledge about Christianity growing just as science has?

You missed the mark completely in terms of assuming I was saying Christians can take the moral high ground. You took an effort I made to relate to you and blasted it. I hope you're more fun at parties :)
StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

I am great fun at partys, I do this realy good trick with my wrists where they click realy realy loudly, many find it disgusting but all find it funny lol.

Science is a constant journey of discovery, I have made this analagy before. it is like taking two school kids, both have text books. One kids text book is like the bible, the others is like science. The kid with the text book/bible always studies the same theories and they never change. The other kids text book/science is an constantly updated and reworked set of teachings. The second kid benefits more because he is constantly learning about life whereas the other kid will be stuck with the same teaching and guidence for all time.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....
That trick sounds crazy, I hope it's not hastening the onset of rheumatism or carpal tunnel. But hey, Houdini dislocated his shoulders to pull of magic tricks, so it's worth it.

Let me explain a bit about the Bible, SGenius. To a certain extent, it must stay unchanging, because people need to be reminded that God doesn't change the rules on them day after day. For God to be accessible to humans, Jesus died. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, as the verse goes. That's significant to someone who needs a constant in their lives when everything else goes to pot. They need (and have) a loving savior that won't be temperamental and angry one day, and kind the next.

On the other hand, people will grow in knowledge of the Bible the more they read, because the words are powerful. But not only that, praying to God in addition reveals things that unbelievers do not know. These are all matters of a spiritual nature, so that might deem it not nearly as worthy to learn about than, say, science.

I can understand that, but what I have to go by is that I owe my life to God, because if it were up to me I'd have taken my own life years ago. I have great blessing and incredible circumstances that have surrounded me.

The catch is, nobody can experience that unless they open themselves up to the Bible, and inquire of God what the words mean, and seek knowledge about God, of Heaven, about their own lives. It takes a bigger effort to learn of God than it does to learn from a textbook, because of faith - you can't have a science lab to test knowledge of God.

And think of it this way: if teaching is coming from the supreme being of the universe, what's the problem with having the same book to go by for all time? Science books a century or two ago are now rendered obsolete in many ways, but the Bible has remained virtually unchanged apart from translating and human error. For its purpose of teaching mankind about God over millennia, it is powerful because it is unchanging. For the purpose is serves, it is better that it doesn't change. But I might add that no one can learn all of it in a lifetime. People can memorize it, but living it out is a lifelong pursuit.

Knowing about this world in scientific terms is incredibly important, SGenius. Christianity isn't chucking one's brain out the window - but it is asking that God comes first. It asks that worldly wisdom is not ALL we learn about.

One more example: worldly wisdom dictates that certain kinds of music are now popular. It explains what bands must wear, that hot girls should be in music videos, and that certain things they do will make them more money.

Yet I look at the Billboard charts and see songs about sleeping with women, blowing money on drugs, vulgar language, and even deep depression. The wisdom of the world says this is what's popular and successful. Radio stations everywhere play this stuff. But if I do what that says, I'm gonna end up a drugged out has-been with a ton of STDs, holes in my arm from shooting up, a desintegrated nasal cavity from snorting cocaine, 1-3 failed marriages, a head full of bad memories, and much less money than I'd like.

No, there comes a time when hard times hit, and we want - need - more than what the world says is successful and fun. And people who are too smart for that stuff and intellectually disprove that God exists are probably too smart for God anyways. That worldly wisdom is enough for most people, and there are nonreligious organizations that do help without attachment to God. But if God reigns supreme over everything, they'd arguably be more effective WITH God.
truthsayer said on Jul 23, 2007....

Hi Lidstrom82, StupidGenius and of course...a big howdy to our host, SeanRenaud. : )

I made it through some of the valley places, I've been down to the river to pray, and I am headed back up the mountain again ; ) to learn more about His Ways.

I just wanted to interject here for a moment, that it would be a good idea Lidstrom, if you read the link and all the comments that SeanR posted as his original inspiration :?) for this blog topic. If you note one of the scriptures that SG just "happened" to put up in a comment on that blog link, is from Isaiah 14.

He/she specifically quotes Isaiah 14:21...only one verse, which is always suspect...much easier to manipulate you know. No offense SG. I am bringing this up for you really, just to show the hand of God, in all things...to all who are willing to see, even this conversation that you are presently having with Lidstrom82.

You must read and understand the entire chapter, to have even the most rudimentary understanding of the true meaning of that one-line quote you chose to post SG.  It is God talking about the wicked king of Babylon, Lucifer, the fallen angel, the former 'light bearer' and as you know, we don't all have the same father/Father, by the choices we make in life.

If you can give me the benefit of the doubt, for just a minute, I think you will both (Lidstrom82, and StupidGenius) see the irony. I am quoting from the NLT, for readability, and also, because of the words which you will surely recognize.

Here is the link to the NLT, Chapter 14 of Isaiah at the Bible Gateway, online:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014&version=51

Anyone that sincerely wants to understand the one line quoted by SG, should take the time to read the entire chapter, and understand that God certainly does plan to, and will, overthrow satan/lucifer's kingdom here in this world. He will also kill all of his sons and daughters, all of his children, so that no one can set themselves upon his prideful and hateful little throne again.

Here is the specific quote that I am referring to:

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
      O shining star, son of the morning!
   You have been thrown down to the earth,
      you who destroyed the nations of the world.
13 For you said to yourself,
      ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars.

See shiningstar, only God is exalted...not you, not me...not Lidstrom or SG or SeanR. The word I AM in Hebrew means that He is the only self sufficient and self existent One. The First and Final Cause. Not you, not me, not Lidstrom or SG or SeanR...Only He is.

shiningstar, what religion are you anyway? I am afraid that for your claim to have written a book (which is supposedly available on Amazon.com, with 181 Bible references) to be true, you would have known from writing that book, that Bible references are done by chapter and verse, and not by page number as you previously argued with SeanR and I, on another blog entry. I think it was SeanR that corrected you in that, wasn't it?

But Lidstrom, SeanR was most sincere when he said that you and shiningstar are no where near on the same page. I just stopped here to back him up on that.

God speed Lidstrom82.

SG, I pray that you find the way to being a true believer...one who does not waiver, and is not easily moved. I pray for deep roots this time. As you know, I am a student of quantum physics and my faith, my intelligence and my study of science and the Word of God are in no way hindered. In fact, they are more unified than ever. I pray that for you too man.

Nice discussion folks.

Carry on...

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Jul 23, 2007....

One other point before I go. I am trained in General Systems Theory. The Bible is an open system. Text books are closed systems.

: )
StupidGenius said on Jul 24, 2007....

The bible is an open system because it is so vaig and misleading that you can take any meaning you want from it and then justify it by saying "Well god said it in the bible"

I am dissapointed in you Truth, you study science but still believe that an almighty being of uncomparable complexity just popped into existance and created everything around us. That is just silly.

Do not waste your time praying for me, prayer dosnt work. It never has and it never will. People believe in prayer becasue of the yes, no and wait effect. See seans post on this subject. I could pray to my t.v and quite easily link anything good that happens in my life to that prayer.

the vast majority of scientists are Atheist, funny how they are accused of being faulty in their logic and "Oh they must have been hurt as children" but as soon as you are ill or want to better understand the weather then wow they realy are clever.

Lidstrom, Im sorry that you were at such a low point that you nearly took your own life but that does not mean that god saved you. You believe he did but your desperation and need to be saved induced your feeling of god saving you.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 24, 2007....

Long time no see Truth, I missed ya buddy. Thanks for the support by the way.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 24, 2007....
(sarcasm) I'm so glad you know me well enough to explain to me how things REALLY happened the night I tried to commit suicide, SG :)

Seriously though, you don't need to be hurt to believe the wrong thing, but that's usually how it happens. Maybe Columbine wouldn't have happened if the shooters had happier childhoods. You've even got badasses like Darth Vader and Lord Voldemort who were forged from tragedy and lack of love.

Or, you have people who were taught wrong from an early age.

You must understand SG, that the things of God are very simple to people who seek Him, and one could say that it makes you look foolish to miss them. I don't believe you're a fool, and I don't wish to insult your intelligence, but eliminating the concept of faith, be default, blinds you to what it offers you.

The "yes, no, wait" effect on prayer is frustrating for any Christian at one time or another. Is it much different than our own parents telling us to wait until a certain age to learn how to drive? Or wait until Christmas morning before opening your presents? Or keeping us from eating an extra bowl of ice cream, so we don't throw it up later?

God, our Father, truly is a Father in that sense. We often hate Him for saying no, or being silent, but that doesn't make Him an immature bully. It means we don't know what's good for ourselves, and He does. A loving parent does the same thing. Why's that so hard to understand?

I appreciate the concern you shared about the lowest point of my life, SG. I've hit a few more low points since then, too. I must stress to you that I was emotionally bankrupt, and I had no inner desire to muster up hope for myself, to induce anything. The only thing that helped was to cry out to God, and attempt to live one day at a time.

I'll continue to believe prayer works because it has worked before. Just because the answer to a prayer is "no" doesn't make prayer useless. Anything you've ever lacked, SG, can be restored to you here and in Heaven by a God that loves you.
truthsayer said on Jul 24, 2007....

This discussion is all I have time for today. But I know this is where I need to spend my five minutes on soulcast.

You're welcome for the back-up SeanR. You notice there weren't any more comments (at least not yet) after the "shining star" quote from the Bible. You will find, I am sure, as I have, that Lidstrom82 is a bit of a kindred spirit with me. He hasn't been back here long, and I am asking, as a friend, for you to treat him as you do me. You don't have to agree with him on anything either ; ) Just be respectful, like you are to me. We can be grown ups here : ) At least until the food fights begin ; )

Now, to StupidGenius, I have a "few words" ; ) Didn't you say that you are a former church member or believer? In other words, that you felt that you had been deceived at some age? Like at Bible Camp?

Wasn't it on that very stimulating post of polarheart's in which you said that you are a former Christian? Well, I must admit, your philosophy, or your observations tend to look like they are all over the place. No offense, but are you a 33rd Degree Mason or something? They believe as you believe. They have made The Mason's their religion. They believe in Hermes, satan, and all of the myths that seem to be equal in your eyes. I would not expect you to see things any differently though my friend, because you have no discernment.

All things are equal in your estimation. All are myths and fables. Funny. That's just what the Masons and Shriners say.  Your TV comment would have been really funny, if it were not for so many people believing in man made things, and being self made men...I think your comment had more truth in it than you know. You have read about the way humans tend to hold beliefs in idols, and even pray to them? Do you think that you own intellectual pride is not an idol? One that you trust completely and believe in...or that you believe and put your trust in the minds and judgment of other men? You do. You clearly do.

I had one other observation. Do you remember, or are you old enough to remember Victoria Jackson? She is one of the comedians from Saturday Night Live. She has been a Christian her whole life, and a very funny lady to boot.

She wrote a song about athiests that she plays on her ukulele, while she sings. It was hilarious (to the believer, no doubt ; ) Anyway, I heard it again the other night....and I thought of you : )

I recommend that any believers look it up. Maybe somebody should post it on utube ; ) But it has to do with what a big part of you life is centered around talking about Someone that you profess NOT to believe in. Maybe that isn't very good grammar, but it is true non the less. The repeating line at the end of each stanza is, "and she talks about it all the time!"

That made me think. I don't believe in Santa Claus. I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. Now, maybe I did when I was a kid, but I only talk about Santa a couple of times during a week or two of the whole year. I only mention the Easter Bunny...maybe, one day a year. We don't teach those myths to our children, but we do teach them that they are myths, and some children believe in them, and that they need to respect their friends beliefs, and don't discuss them.

Now, in case you are already chomping at the bit to devour my argument and regurgitate it in a way that makes sense only to you... : )  (I'm still smilin', hope you are too ; ) I have never believed in fairies, leprochauns, or a host of other 'nature spirits' and I can honestly say that I never ever talk about them, and I certainly do not challenge others when they choose to believe in them. Unless, of course, God sends me to witness to them, or give them a word of knowledge, or a prophecy (Ohhhh, I know you are just straining at the gate on that one my friend ; )

So, if you used to believe in God, but don't anymore...why talk about Him so much? And, if you have never believed in Him, then why talk about Him at all? Why care if others believe in Him?  Can you tell me why? Other than you are afraid of me, of Christians, of our beliefs that affect you, as an American, or as a citizen of earth.

I think Shakespeare said it best: "Me thinks thou dost protest too much!"

I am still praying for you. I have all the proof I need that prayer works. It works to expose things too...not just to 'get what you want'. These are things that are lost on you though, and I wouldn't want to upset you any further either.

Suffice to say that your secular evangelistic tendancies do not go unnoticed.  Everytime you taunt someone with your "drug relapse" or your obvious "lack-of-intellect" comments...you speak volumes about yourself, and the kinds of people that you can manipulate with those comments.

You cannot shake the faith of one who has fought the fight and now, after all their hard questioning and hard answers, they OWN their faith...those ones, your cynicism and manipulations cannot touch my friend.

Love to you all, from my Homeland,

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Jul 24, 2007....

SeanR: Interesting that you have had so many views and comments. Kinda controversial isn't it? Lots of dialogue from both "sides". I daresay you'd be hard pressed to find another topic so compelling. Especially the time everyone is willing to invest in it. There isn't another topic that can hold our attention like this one is there?

Great blog. You have a captive audience. Keep asking questions. It seems like a hot time to ask. Quite interesting, really.

; )

Your fellow think-buddy,

truthsayer
lidstrom82 said on Jul 24, 2007....
That, my friends, is how you speak the truth in love.
shiningstar said on Jul 24, 2007....

To answer the three questions. If the god in question is Jehovah the answer to the first question is no. The same Divine Intelligence that I call Prime Creator created all life, all of the gods and everything else. Second Question. Did Jesus come to wash away sin? Would sin be defined as breaking the laws? If so there is no person who broke more laws than Jehovah. Hitler and Saddam pale in comparison. Who died for his sin and washed them away? Jesus was murdered for committing the religious sin of blasphemy. Speaking against Jehovah. Who would die for his sin? The answer is no.It is change that Jesus came here for not to be part of his own premeditated murder committed by his own father and his priests and people?Third question YES. Each person has the power and it is the power of feeling that creates ones reality. I realize this will be torn apart too but that is alright. One drop of clear water in a dirty bucket of water will with time create a bucket of clear water.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 25, 2007....

You answered your own question there Truth. We talk about it because it does effect us. I've displayed on several occasions that there are many many decisions that religious people make that are largely divorced from logic. It's not just limited to evolution, it permeates through science through both assumptions of a diety that prevent discovery and through combating new forms of research. It comes in not vaccinating because it might cause promiscuity. It causes people to blow up buildings.

You bring up Santa and the Easter Bunny. They only effect the world you know twice a year. Now imagine a religion built around the two of them where the Easter Bunny would provide food for you year round if you believed and Santa would bring you all of the material possessions you need as long as you were good all year round. Now lets rationalize this into a working system. If these people actually followed their beliefs as described they would die out rather quickly (as would Christians without rationalisation) so they decide that Wal-Mart was inspired by Santa and the Easter Bunny, suddenly they are capable of survival.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 25, 2007....
shining/renaud: I think you both need to explain those last posts better, because they aren't entirely clear.
StupidGenius said on Jul 25, 2007....

As Sean said, Religion does affect us. Its segregating, holier than thou attitude can be seen in many governments and organisations throughout the world and is forever trying to impede the progression of science because the more we prove to be true the less stable your blind faith becomes.

We talk about it because it does affect us. Not that I need to justify that point because I can talk about anything I like just as you can truth.

You teach your kids that Santa and other such stories are not true but because you have a book to supposedly back up your blind unnatural basis for believing in a super being that popped into existence. The book however is flawed because as you except it is open to the interpretation of man. Men make mistakes and in the case of the bible they made mistakes to numerous to name in this tiny space I have to write in.

Your faith is a fairytale i'm afraid. It is a story, developed, mistranslated and exaggerated over many years (is that since time began, 6,000 years ago?) purely to aid the survival of a group of people that actually drew their faith with poetic license from the Jews.

Just for the record, I never went to a bible camp, never claimed to be a Christian and would not even consider the idea unless god floated down on a fluffy cloud while sitting next to Santa and the Easter bunny and said "hey Mike... believe in me now??"

I protest too much? I don’t think I protest half as much as I should, your religion infects our systems of politics, provides a divine reason for killing and should be forgotten and dismissed simply as fantasy.

Tooth fairy, Santa, Easter Bunny and Jesus... all fairytales, all stories, all unnatural, all unproven. Simple as that.

It really makes me laugh how you decide which gods, idols and stories are true and which are false when in fact they all have the same amount of factual bearing and evidence as Jesus. You have chosen a faith and now try to defend it, which I can understand but your position is untenable and undeniably littered with falsehoods.

Save your prayer for someone who shares your blind faith that they will work. Or how about praying for me to make loads of money this year and make my efforts to support my soon to be born child.

You think people like me have been hurt, changed, suffered from mental illness etc. The problem is that blind faith is says more about your mentality than it does about mine. Ill pray to my computer screen that your realise your life changing error.

You are funny though.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 25, 2007....
What he said, just with claws in.
StupidGenius said on Jul 25, 2007....

I am trying to retract my claes before I begin typing, It is hard but can be done with the utmost restraint.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 25, 2007....
I know, I'm straining too. Besides as I always say there comes a point where you have to call a spade a spade and stop being polite. The rest of the civilized world has gotten past this long ago. We are the last 1st world nation to grow up, and it's starting to catch up with us.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 25, 2007....
The restraint is appreciated, believe me. What's painfully obvious to you is something I don't agree with, and what's painfully obvious to me is something you guys have also ruled out. So we're on equal ends of restraint here.

I fear that you both have lumped in all the negative of all religions and have deemed it all bad. Have you guys ever heard the expression, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater?"

It means that back in the 15th century or so, they had annual baths, and the man of the house would take a bath first, followed by the wife and the children - all bathing in the same bathwater. Since annual baths were probably not enough, you can imagine that the further back in line you were, the dirtier the same water got. The baby was last, and so the expression goes that when you dump out all the filthy, bathed-in water, don't dump the baby out with it. It all goes to say that in the midst of filth, don't also pitch out the goodness included.

Would it be a stretch for you guys to consider that maybe one religion is actually worth following? If not for yourselves than others? The reason I counter what you both say is that I see Christians loving others every single day, and your view of "religion is bad" simply doesn't account for that. But it is there. If you don't listen to that, it's your own loss, because in a way you've already judged all Christians to be deficient in some way. It's hard to love your fellow man when you perceive them as deficient.

Oddly enough, the Bible also talks about that. It's really the same thing, guys. Jesus didn't come for the healthy, but came for the sick. That includes the spiritually sick too. What happens if you don't acknowledge the spirit, the soul, that makes you unique? If you're convinced it doesn't exist, you can't notice if that spirit is damaged or starved somehow. If we all need Jesus to be forgiven and to live blameless in God's eyes, how can anyone agree with that if they deny the spirit in them?

SGenius, there's a place near me called the Institute for Creation Research, and it explains what ideas of Christianity and science are compatible and which ones aren't. I'm going to look into it and some of their resources. Usually I can spot some stretch of the Bible's teachings when I see it, so we'll see how that goes.

Not all religion is bad, guys. I think your points will come across better with that in mind. Because by labelling it all bad, you're lumping together all people with vastly different beliefs from each other. I think you're onto something, though. I think you're judging religion by its worst parts, its weakest link. Again, you throw out any truth that comes with it.

What I think you're both onto is the imperfection of human beings. Religious or not, we have the capacity to screw the pooch with all sorts of things in our lives. I don't think religion is in itself a horribly flawed idea, but rather it's a vehicle, much like government, philosophy, or immorality, that people use to further ideas - and not all of them are good. If you want to point to infection or poison of the world, it's not just religion, guys.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 25, 2007....

Don’t think for a second that I don’t know that you are holding it back, or that we(or atleast me) don’t appreciate it. Hell the only reason I’m still here is that we haven’t entered the dreaded loop yet where it becomes, please read my post above. When we hit that point I’ll politely wander off and start a new similar more specific blog to try and limit the conversation.

I can site good muslims loving people and doing the right thing, same with wiccans, jews and scientologists.

I am quite aware of other non-religious problems, I’m very critical of anybody who refuses to judge others and make decisions based on those judgements. Wether it’s people saying if your fat you should be ok with that because your beautiful inside (and costing others tax dollars as you suffer from various diseases) or that playing video games makes mass murderers.

I know that when I say something about Jesus the world stands up and takes notice I actually bitch about a lot of things. I’m not quite a one trick pony.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 25, 2007....
You're good, Renaud - I'm not trying to be all like "YOU BETTER APPRECIATE THAT I DON'T OPEN A CAN ON YOU!"

Thanks for clarifying that you can see the good in religion, but I do agree that most of it does not benefit the human race, certainly it hasn't in the past.

I'm not sure what you were saying about refusing to judge others, being critical of people who do that, something or other. Jesus was all about pointing directly to a person's deficiency and getting to the heart of the matter of what they were doing. He saved the woman caught in adultery from a stoning, and in one fell swoop offered grace to her (saving her from the crowd and from death), forgiveness, and a command: "go forth and sin no more." So for those who inconvenience others or break rules, Jesus offers forgiveness in the same way, but also commands that they turn away from it.

About not being a one trick pony..do you mean to say you bitch about a lot of things, not just religion?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 25, 2007....

You make me smile.

Jesus does make judgements, if you don't believe you rot in hell. :-)

All joking aside society is based on judging others both positively and negatively. We must reward good behavior and punish (appropriately) bad behavior. We see Jesus spare an adulterer from death, obviously he was well a head of the times on what is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't recall him defending murderers. Even if he had I would ask you what kind of world do you think we would live in if instead of judging say Jeffery Dahmer and taking appropriate actions?
lidstrom82 said on Jul 25, 2007....
lol...well, you know...

Jesus is supposed to be the ONLY judge of whether we go to Heaven or Hell. That happens when we die, but we don't know if a piano will fall on our heads 10 minutes from now, so it's better to believe sooner rather than later. Life ain't always predictable.

But yes, we have to discern right and wrong somehow. The Ten Commandments outline that pretty well. I wonder if "Thou shalt not kill" is different from putting someone to death. You ever wonder about that, Renaud? Like if they made a distinction somewhere that committing murder is bad, but putting someone to death as punishment for crimes is just. The Old Testament talks about both.

Interestingly, Jeffrey Dahmer was interviewed by Focus on the Family shortly before his execution, and he became a Christian while in prison. He expressed remorse and also how he started on the path to depravity: he found porn mags in a dumpster in his hometown, and loneliness and elements of his childhood all mixed in to create a desire for sexual pleasure through death and the macabre.

If Jesus can forgive the extreme of Jeffrey Dahmer (and he IS forgiven, if his faith in Jesus is genuine, which I believe it was), then it means basically no one is outside the love of God.

It's not too weird to think that Jesus put His foot down, so to speak. If we disobey our parents we get grounded, right? If we disobey Jesus our whole lives, we risk Hell. It's on a much grander scale, true, but it's the same rules we grew up with, why claim it's such a crazy idea now, people?
truthsayer said on Jul 25, 2007....

So, you two are afraid of me, huh? ; ) Well, you should be : ) That is you should be if you are afraid of my influence. I do have a fair amount of influence...but nothing that isn't allowed, or ordained to be so.

As to my blind faith: I told you, I just don't fit your profile guys. I do not have 'blind faith' and that is what scares both of you. I personally do not like it when Christians, or Jews (less common, btw) cow-tow to nonBelievers on this silly euphamism.

Now, I do often walk by faith, and not by worldly sight...but I have a sight, a second sight that you two...no matter how many books you read (except for one), no matter what you tell yourselves, or what you tell each other...I have an information system that you cannot access. I think, if one of you is honest, you have experienced some of that. Or do you believe in magic? Genies (sp) which is where we get the word "genius" from, by the way : ) Or that blasted flying green spaghetti monster again? I doubt that. Geesh, some of this stuff gets rote.

People think they are different from the unbelievers in the Bible. Yet they still gather the ear and nose rings of their kinsmen and melt them down into something that suits their own whims and desires. : )

Hopefully you Sean, will have enough integrity to admit that I do not fit your typical "profile" for your perception of most Christians. I don't expect SG to admit it, because he can't see above the path he has been walking for so long, that the sides of the ditch are taller than he/she is. I only interact with those that I see a glimmer in their eye...at least, on spiritual matters.

But from where I sit, the secular group think here is thick. If you cannot think outside of the box in this discussion, then after this, I think I am done. My time is too valuable to me...unless one of you can say something new. Some are worth waiting for, remember?...and some, have clear indicators of being too entrenched in their ways...and only say the same things over and over. Wanna talk about the crusades again? Or maybe Saladin? Or anything else that has been used as personal excuses throughout the history...at least since the "AD" years.

I thought you had more going on than that Sean. I really did. We have had this discussion before...usually around kelly. Now, it is the same discussion but with StupidGenius. Maybe you each talk down to each other too, and consider that normal...i.e. the drug comments, and inferior intellect comments. Whatever.

I am only here because I love each of you. You are here for other reasons, I suspect. Of course I answered my own question SeanR. I already knew the answer. Do you know why I knew the answer? Because I really listen to you, and I listen to your heart.

Still, I have a few commments.

We talk about it because it does effect us. I've displayed on several occasions that there are many many decisions that religious people make that are largely divorced from logic. It's not just limited to evolution, it permeates through science through both assumptions of a diety that prevent discovery and through combating new forms of research.

Interdependence: We all affect each other. As a matter of fact, if you could measure all things, all organizations and all people that have ever existed, you would be able to see, that which you cannot see now. That all things, organizations, people and even all ideas...affect all of us: Past, present and future.

Your second sentence is wrong, overall, but would seem correct to you, from your perspective. Everyone, Christian or nonChristian, make their own decisions on myriad topics from such low thought processes, that it should scare you far more than Christianity does.

Your third sentence is just misinformed and/or disinformed. So, I cannot fault you there, really. It just proves my point though.

Now imagine a religion built around the two of them where the Easter Bunny would provide food for you year round if you believed and Santa would bring you all of the material possessions you need as long as you were good all year round.

Neither of these examples, based upon your assumptions and/or biases, would be Biblical. But I cannot expect you to know that either. Next?

StupidGenius:

Its segregating, holier than thou attitude can be seen in many governments and organisations throughout the world and is forever trying to impede the progression of science because the more we prove to be true the less stable your blind faith becomes.

Segregating? Are you serious? You mean because churches seem to be filled with either one race/color or another? I think that is more human than you think. You can thank Christians for fighting here and in England, to end slavery. My two best friends were of a different race in college. One of their mother's hated me, the other one loved me. America has this problem...not as bad as Europe, mind you...but this is a human problem. Churches are working (not that you would know that) to end this. We know, better than you, that God loved all colors and races that He created. Moses' wife was black. His sister Miriam was prejudiced towards her. She was punished by God until she repented. Darwinism was one of the core issues of Hitler's manifesto. So be careful in your generalizations.

Holier than thou? You don't even believe in holiness...so I hardly think this should bother you kiddo. The rest of your statement has been addressed in my response to SeanR. That is ridiculous man. Sorry. I suppose that sounds holier than thou...to thou ; )

We talk about it because it does affect us. Not that I need to justify that point because I can talk about anything I like just as you can truth.

Yes you can, yes you can.

Lastly, to SeanR again:

Jesus does make judgements, if you don't believe you rot in hell. :-)

Sort of SeanR. I'll be gone, as will others...but everyone will get another chance to see what the world will be like without true believers. Everyone is given every single opportunity to choose, after they have been presented the Gospel in a way that they understand. I could go into that more, but I'll save it for a blog of my own, I think ; ) They won't all rot though.

All joking aside society is based on judging others both positively and negatively. We must reward good behavior and punish (appropriately) bad behavior. We see Jesus spare an adulterer from death, obviously he was well a head of the times on what is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't recall him defending murderers.

But he did. You need to read more about Saul/Paul. Moses was a murderer too. So was David....and I don't mean in battle either. I mean he had a man murdered so that he could marry his wife. Jesus saves everyone that repents. David was always repentent. God still punished him in other ways. David brought all sorts of problems on his entire family from his sin...he still had consequences to his actions.

But you are right...we are expected to make a right judgment...if we are called to judge. We cannot just stick our heads in the sand when things are wrong. I could make a list for you. We would probably agree on the list, but not which side of the issue was "right".

Take care guys (Lidstrom82, too : ). You earned my half hour online tonight : )

I gotta go now...I'll see ya later.

Keep your minds and your systems open, lest you die ; )

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Jul 25, 2007....

SeanR, considering how long it takes the comments to load here...I really think you should go for the record number of views and comments here ; )

truth
SeanRenaud said on Jul 26, 2007....

It seems rather obvious throughout the Bible (the old Testament at least) understand that murder, is different from putting to death or on the field of battle.

I have a real problem with the concept that Dahmer after all he did was forgiven because of his belief in Jesus. While at the same time Ghandi after all he did was punished because he didn’t believe. Yeah I understand the idea of a parent punishing poor behavior but honestly large portions of Christianity are based not around punishing those who aren’t good as much as punishing those who don’t acknowledge/submit to Jesus.

Actually I don’t believe in Magic until somebody shows me something. That said the Bible acknowledges magic, and it is bad.

I’ve never denied that you are different from the average Christian. It’s kinda frustrating because you’re obviously too intelligent and to educated to buy into this crap but at the same time you are able to defend some of your views rather well. There is little point in talking the Crusades. The Muslims started it, I don’t get upset because somebody refused to back down. I might bring up the Inquisition though. :-P

Aside from one insane (and mildly entertaining) author I was pretty sure that the general consensus was that the Rapture came at the end rather than the beginning.

You and I might not agree which side is right, but that’s the glory of democracy. At least the majority should be happy with the decision that is made. J

Yeah I might be heading there, this one has now passed all other blogs in terms of how many comments it’s gotten.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 26, 2007....
"It’s kinda frustrating because you’re obviously too intelligent and to educated to buy into this crap but at the same time you are able to defend some of your views rather well."

Well, lol, despite Christian beliefs being referred to as being at the same level as dung, this discussion goes on as normal.

I wonder if this simplifies the issue: Christians have hope that, in the eyes of nonbelievers, makes them look like they've got their head in the clouds.

But no one can live without hope. That is a fact. If we had no expectation that our day was going to be worthwhile, we wouldn't get out of bed. Most marriages end when we stop believing our spouse has love or support to offer us. People suffer from depression when they start to think there's not much to live for or look forward to. Unfortunately, one proof of needing hope are the suicides we hear about every so often.

So that's what Christ offers me - hope beyond what I can see or do for myself. It allows me to reach beyond my comfort zone and bless others. And in return, I am blessed - not merely with a warm fuzzy feeling of "do-gooding" and "derring do", but a peace inside of me that helps.

My father ascribes to none of that, and I've seen him suffer more than he should, because he is not aware of Christ's hope. He hasn't put two and two together and realize that in my depression and suicidal thoughts back in high school, that Jesus was the only reason I didn't grow up to be like his brother, a lonely man who was so isolated he told no one that he was dying of stomach cancer, and he died in my parents' home. He rarely came out of the room he was staying in, so they didn't immediately know what had happened until it was too late. My life right before God intervened was eerily similar to that. The less hope you have, the more your world tends to shrink. Some deal with it with sarcasm and cynicism, making humor out of their pain and bitterness (that's why counselors and therapists are taught not to laugh along when a patient/client derides themselves or others for a laugh. You don't encourage that behavior because it's not the best way to deal with hurt). Some gloss over the pain with education, putting on a mask, or living in denial.

In the end, you'll never know how much you need Jesus Christ until He's the only thing you have left.
truthsayer said on Jul 27, 2007....

How about chunking this again? If you are still interested? I'll post two comments, sequentially, to see if you are still interested in commenting Sean.

It seems rather obvious throughout the Bible (the old Testament at least) understand that murder, is different from putting to death or on the field of battle.

Yes, and Jesus tells us that we need to be accountable for our thoughts as well. Ever met someone that is polite enough on the ‘outside’ but when they are alone with you, they say all sorts of horrible things about people? You know the kind, hypocrites? Of which Christians and Jews are not the only ones capable of being hypocritical. But, we are equally accountable as nonbelievers…each Christian, the Bible says, must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. This character building is serious business. Willful sin is a strict ‘no-no’ for all Christians. Jesus really drove home the importance of being accountable, when He said that if we hate someone, we have committed murder in our hearts. Why we are supposed to love everyone, even our enemies. After all, we might be neighbors in heaven one day, since we ourselves, are not the ultimate judge of each other’s hearts ; )

truth
truthsayer said on Jul 27, 2007....

Second comment:

I have a real problem with the concept that Dahmer after all he did was forgiven because of his belief in Jesus.

I have a problem with this too…but, if he is truly repentant, and I did hear a guy that counseled Dahmer, say that he believed he was repentant. I haven’t met the guy though, so, I can remain skeptical and trust Jesus’ judgment on the matter. I am thoroughly convinced though, that the guy known as Son of Sam, what was his name? David Horowitz. I am convinced that he is sincere in his conversion. He refused parole consideration. He said it would be wrong for him to ever be released. He continues in his prison ministry, and will die happily in jail. I don’t know much about the ‘conversion’ details of Dahmer however. : ^/

truth
truthsayer said on Jul 27, 2007....

My third comment to yours had to do with Ghandi, and it was reallllly long (surprise, surprise, surprise ; )

It was sort of a personal story, and may be better shared in a blog. What do you think?

Well...I didn't want you to think that I forgot you. I won't be on much this weekend. We're moving more stuff out of the office building into storage.

Lidstrom82, it is hard to communicate miraculous things, or healings that we have witnessed or experienced when one needs so desparately to experience these things for themselves, isn't it? I saw a tent meeting near here. I have never been to one.

I often think that is a better place, in God's mind, for people to see the miraculous...I mean, He said that signs, wonders and miracles would follow all of them who believed...but, it was so that OTHERS could believe. I think the church often forgets that. Except for missionaries, they know. I have heard that is an awesome experience to speak and share with people all over the world that aren't too proud to be hungry, that aren't too jaded to hear the Gospel.

We aren't supposed to be in churches to stay isolated and uninvolved...we are supposed to do what Jesus did and go where He would go. I have been trying to get churches to go outside of the four walls, so to speak, for a long time.

Time is short, and we still have much to do. 2/3's of the world is without adequate food, can't worship, can't profess their faith or gather together, are under tyrannical governments and under persecution...who do people think will go? Who has enough money to send? Who? We do.

But then, I am probably preaching to the choir, aren't I? ; )

Later, but not too much later,

truth
truthsayer said on Jul 27, 2007....

Sean, my post about Ghandi might surprise you, btw.

truth
bloc said on Jul 27, 2007....
@lid
I see no reason that hope can't exist without christ. In fact, you pretty much make this argument yourself.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 27, 2007....

I swear Truth you are like the great sleeping dragon of the religious world. I really need to figure out who it is that keeps waking you up and tell him to stop :-P.

Yeah I know those kinds of people, though to be honest I’ve never been quite sure what to make of them. I mean honestly there are things we just don’t need to say to each other. There is no need and it makes life (and sometimes communication) more difficult than it has a need to be. Bottling it up for ever doesn’t seem to work for everybody I know I tend to get to the point rather quickly where I’ll tell somebody they are an idiot and I’m through being polite. I have several blogs dedicated to the fact that I was thoroughly annoyed.

I don’t care if Dahmer was sincere. I don’t care if Son of Sam is either. I’m not sure that loving myself would mean that I didn’t think I ever deserved to be freed, but hey maybe he stayed in to keep ministering in jail so I won’t criticize that so much as say it might be something worth looking at.

All the missionaries I’ve met have been pretty damn good people granted I have limited access to them maybe a dozen or so that I’ve met but all excellent individuals.
kelly said on Jul 27, 2007....
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not green. You should know better than to disrespect another's religion.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 30, 2007....
I hear what you're saying, bloc...we have reasons to hope in things apart from any religion. It's just that when everything else is gone, Jesus is the best hope we have. What's even more, He's the best hope compared to anything else we'd hope in. He's not merely a last resort when the chips are down, but if someone loses hope in all else, Jesus is there. That's what forgiveness is for. I lost hope in everything else, me the youngest child in a middle class family who had friends and pretty much anything else I would ask for. But I was dying inside. That's when I realized a need for Jesus. I don't think much of America will recognize that need when we can afford things more than 90% of the world can only dream of. If given enough distractions, it's very easy to ignore God. So yes, bloc, people can hope in pretty much anything - that's the point I made. But I also made the point that Jesus is an unchanging, forgiving, constant source of hope that outlasts any other kind of hope.
truthsayer said on Jul 30, 2007....

Hi kelly. Sorry man. I didn't mean to disrespect your god, or your religion ; )

Yes Sean, he did stay to minister. He also said that he honored the families of the people he murdered, by accepting his punishment, as he deserved all of it.

Missionaries, even from mainstream churches are often different from the churches that send them. They tend to see supernatural things all the time, and are usually hushed, or silenced by their respective denominations. I love to hear them. They are different, and I respect that.

Truly, we should all have hearts for missions and be missionaries...those who are true believers. In fact, if one doesn't have a burden for the lost, one cannot call themselves a true believer. You can probably use that as your own Litmus Test for true believers. If you have read any of my recent blogs, you will see that I am discussing just these things...but from a different orientation.

truthsayer yawns..."I think I'll take another little nap" ; )
truthsayer said on Jul 30, 2007....

I couldn't sleep : )

I am not going to comment on the Ghandi thing as I said, because it's just too long.

My answer to the rapture is short, however ; )

There are pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation and post-tribulation positions on the rapture. And, there are those that do not believe in it, or simply have no opinion on it because it isn't specifically and plainly mentioned, by name, in the scriptures.

Like Pat Robertson of the 700 Club. He doesn't discuss it, and has been known to say that he doesn't believe in it because it isn't plainly spoken in the New Testament.

I believe in it, although I do not try to define what it is, exactly; or where we will end up. It is a complicated and indepth word study I did.

Anyway, I'm off of here for the night.

G'night, again.

truth
SeanRenaud said on Jul 30, 2007....
Correct me if I'm wrong. The rapture is mentioned in the texts it's just that the traditional belief was that it occured near the end of Revelations rather than near begining like in Left Behind (I only read the first four books but it is a pretty good series, if I could find a few Christians and a few Atheists I've been working on outlining and eventually writing an alternate version.
Chelle2KC said on Aug 02, 2007....

The Word of God is meant to liberate. If you find yourself truly seeking God - Our Father who art in Heaven - just find a quiet spot and begin to call on the name of Jesus. He will know your heart and true intentions and He will answer your call. Any questions you have concerning God and His work, God will answer. Just try it and see.

For those of us who are believers, we already know (I John 4:1-6) not to believe every spirit, but to test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (I John 4:1-6).

Jesus cares about us and our salvation. He wants us to be with Him and He has proven that with His bloodshed, death and resurrection. (John 19 & 20)

The choice is ours to make. (2Peter 3:8 & 9) But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 02, 2007....
I really appreciate the time you take to quote actual verses, Chelle. Well done!

What everyone, Christian or nonchristian, must know is that any delay they perceive in God's plan is for the sake of mercy. God does desire everyone on Earth to enjoy eternity in paradise, and that means Christians must strive to reach all nations, and to make disciples.

Simply put, if all your friends are throwing the party of the century, you're going to want to make sure everyone you know will be coming to it. You just know it's going to be a great time. You'll probably want to convince everyone it's a can't-miss event. But not everyone is willing/able to go.

That's quite a bit of what Heaven is like. Christians desire everyone to know the paradise that awaits them, but many reject Christ because they can't believe something so good can possibly be true. But in light of how dark this world can be, don't we NEED something that wonderful to strive toward? Heaven celebrates everyone who enters, whether they lived a full life for God, or accepted Jesus as their savior seconds before death. For that reason, there is hope for even the hardest heart.

Renaud, your original premise remains the core issue: either Jesus was who He said He was, or He was a liar. By the testimony of His life, I cannot conclude He was a liar, because His life had no sin, no blemish, no blame to assign to. It would take an endless amount of love to willingly die for those that beat, flogged, whipped, spit on, impaled, harassed, jeered, kicked, slapped, and mocked you. Never once did He lash out. He knew what had to be done, that He was brought to Earth for the singular purpose of suffering a horrific death in order to save us from torment and spiritual death ourselves. He took our place. And now, if we believe in Him as our savior, we won't have our lives end at physical death, nor will we have to concern ourselves with the threat of Hell. Jesus does that, but He also gives us a model of a life to lead, where we will be blessed to the full.

To think, we could be set for eternity just by following the life of one man. And we usually reject that in favor of pursuing pleasure, wealth, scientific knowledge, and every other kind of thing that we'll all lose anyway when we die! If life exists past our lives here on Earth, what are we doing to prepare for that? Jesus says there IS life past what we have on Earth, and He explains clearly how we get there. He also tells us it's an unending life in Heaven that's much better than anything we experience on Earth. So in light of that, it's kind of crazy not to follow what Jesus says, you know?
Chelle2KC said on Aug 02, 2007....

I only quote scripture because I remember Jesus telling Satan, when he was being tempted (Matthew 4:1-11) "...."It is written:...." I figure if it worked then, it has to work now. :-)

I find it interesting to see what other people are saying about my Lord and Savior. When I see something I do not understand, I know I need to further my studies. I am confident that the Lord will be Glorified no matter what. You guys are allowing me a chance to be sharpened.

Wishing you all Peace and Love.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 03, 2007....
Actually a large part of my original premise was Shiningstar is an idiot. Oddly enough I pulled my claws back to much and the point was largely lost on the not Truthsayer crowd.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 03, 2007....
Ah, now it becomes clear :) I don't agree with shining on nearly every point they make, but basing a premise on someone's idiocy is not exactly being civil, Renaud :) I applaud the search for truth, though! Though I did not know until now that this post was originally borne from exposing the whack-ness you say in shining's view, by the Christian estimation you're about in the same boat as he/she is: one of you has out-there views on Christ, while the other doesn't see Jesus as someone to live life around. And in both cases, neither of those count as faith. That's just food for thought, bro. I would then wager to say that a spirited discussion about who Jesus was and is, rather than shooting down somebody, is ultimately the better premise.
shiningstar said on Aug 03, 2007....

Until you can accept the fact that you are the gods as Jesus so stated and that you create your own reality, you will NEVER understand what I post. One must evolve to a point that they can take full responsibility for their own life and stop blaming a god or the Big God or anyone else. Jesus was not a follower. He refused to follow Jehovah and his laws.He was murdered for the religious sin of blasphemy which means NOT following Jehovah.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 03, 2007....

At some point you absolutely have to stop respecting other people's views if any progress is going to be made. At some point have to stop being poilte and saying well maybe this or maybe that. I'm not a Christian, I believe that Christian beliefs are silly and damaging not only to the individual but also to the society they participate in.

Thing is Shining here represents a whole new level of dangerous. Radical wrong beliefs that honestly strike so close to right on so many things that the things he's lying about you won't notice. It's too bad we have to throw out the baby too, but toxic bathwater must be eliminated.
RollingC said on Aug 04, 2007....
Yes throw out the toxic bath water but definitely keep the baby... ☺
shiningstar said on Aug 05, 2007....

As I have said before SR there is no difference between you and the religiousity that you purpose to be against. Just like them you have the "one right way" and you do just as they do and defame everyone who does not believe as you believe. You have no spirit of learning. Just the spirit of name calling and lack of respect for any one else's truth. Peace to You My Friend
SeanRenaud said on Aug 05, 2007....

Of course, they are dealing, they believe with facts. I am dealing with facts (to the best of my knowledge) you are dealing with fiction. There is ONE book that is accepted as having the facts on Jesus, the Bible. (Though there are other less respected texts in existance. Both things that aren't in the cannon and other accounts) When ever you are pressed to show evidence for your belief from the Bible, or from any text you can't, what little you can bring up is easily proven to be wrong via the Bible.

So shiningstar I'm asking you to keep an open mind and not conform to the fallacy of beliefs in grained in us since birth. When you want to communicate with us just hover your fingers over the keyboard and concentrate really hard, we'll get the message. After all you can move mountains, surely you can communicate with us?

Or fly to me, I'll be at the Ontario Mills mall most of today, and it's just accepted that we can't fly, hell we barely understand how gravity works so you should be able to explain how e=mc2 was actually a slight miscalculation and if you cluck while jumping up and down on one foot you would be able to fly.
truthsayer said on Aug 05, 2007....

I have been offline for about four days. I have a lot of catching up to do. I have to do it in chunks today, tonight and tomorrow. I just need to add a quick note here.

Hi guys.

As to shiningstar, he worships a false god (either satan or himself), and he doesn't know Jesus, or His Father at all.

SeanR used to know Jesus and His Father, but something has happened to disappoint or anger him. Someone persuaded him to rebel, doubt and then declare his anti-faith, to put it in a picturesque way....regardless of the order it occurred.

But, to Lidstrom's point about SeanR and shiningstar being in the same boat, I just can't quite agree totally Lidstrom. Ultimately, things could end up that way though.

It is my understanding, and of course, I know everyone in here will be most happy to correct me if I am wrong, or even if I misunderstand ; ) So, let me say it: Isn't backslidden what SeanR would be considered by most Christians?

I know you call yourself an athiest Sean, but I guess I am speaking more to Lidstrom on this one point.

Where as shiningstar, is totally off the mark all the way around?

Now, I ask because as I think about all of this, it occurs to me that by Christian and Biblical standards, this may help to clarify our respective conditions.

To believe in the god of this world, or to believe in "this world" without a God, is really the same thing...and may still be what Lidstrom means here. satan is the god of this world...this fallen world. Yet, the world, the true world, the restored and renewed world which will be renewed and restored at Jesus Christ's return, is God's and everything in it. But then, that may only confuse some of you, and that is not my intent.

This is why I so often refer to quantum physics for people that don't believe in either the Creator, Father-God, or Jesus, His Son. It is the only way I have found to help them understand, at least somewhat, how satan can be the temporary god (little g) of this present world, and still, the Creator created it, originally, for man to be the good steward of, and for him to have dominion over, as the good steward.

Perhaps parralel universes and other dimensions are the only common ground interests we can find, to help explain what we are each saying to the other.

Are any of you understanding what I am trying to say? Because it isn't easy, and it is vitally important that I communicate this as clearly as I possibly can.

I'll wait to see if there is any feedback before I continue on.

Thanks for your patience and your persistence.

truthsayer
fearing said on Aug 05, 2007....
Truth, My buddy! Good to see you back around. I was getting worried. I need to start at the top of this one and catch up myself.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 05, 2007....

I'm suddenly tempted to believe that we are living in the end times. Even guys like me who don't believe in signs know something must be very wrong with the basic mechanics of the universe when a strong Christian not only agrees with me, but comes to my defense.

To be fair I don't think Shining worships Satan as I'm highly skeptical as to the existance of such a being. Though I suppose scientology being in the top ten religions of the world proves a thing doesn't really need to exist for it to be worshiped.

I'm a strong supporter of personal strength (which when taken to some of the mystical extremes I've heard has some VERY interesting situations that arrise from it.

What you are saying is plenty clear by the way. At least I'm understanding (while still not agreeing with your basic premise)
truthsayer said on Aug 06, 2007....

Sean, I have posted a rather long and important response to you in my own blog. I would like to post it here for others that may not take the time to read it otherwise. Of course, this is your blog, and you may delete it due to length or for any other reason : )

Here is the link:

http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/81963/The-Truth-About-satan

And here it is, in its entirety:

The Truth About “satan”

Note:

This is for Sean Renaud (and any friends) who simply aren’t sure if satan exists or not. This blog is in response to my self proclaimed atheist friend, Sean. I am posting it here, so that I am meeting the copyright requirements of soulcast: In this world system, I own this copyright under the name of Truthsayer, August 6th, 2007, (and God owns me, in the Name of His Son, Jesus my Redeemer).

To fully understand this discussion, I suggest that you go to Sean’s blog about Jesus Christ, which sparked this discussion. Here is the link to that post: http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/75598/Jesus-Christ

Now, finally, here is “The Truth About ‘satan’”

Of course satan exists Sean. Do you have any idea of the personal cost to me, for witnessing to you, or anyone, as I do? I do it out of love. A deep abiding love for the lost, on behalf of the Creator, on behalf of the One that was Sent to save those that God has, or will allow to believe a powerful delusion. When I am able, through my testimony and through the power of the Blood of the Lamb, to snatch one from satan, especially one that he believes he has 'all neatly boxed and wrapped up with a firey bow on top' (my description); he gets really, really angry.

Would you like me to list the attacks I have come under since signing up on soulcast, and being a witness for Jesus Christ? For Our Father God? For the Holy Spirit, who thank God, bears witness with me? Do you think this is easy? Like a hobby for me or something?

We ARE in the end times. You are intrigued by the mystical? I suppose you mean guys that can lay on a bed of nails and not bleed? As a test of 'personal' strength? I wish you were intrigued by the True Mystical. Are you?

Would you like to fly? Would you welcome visions? Visitations? Or could you handle it? It would be like nothing you have ever experienced. The cost is great for such experiences. You will be refined in the fire. You will be tested. Are you man enough for that? Ironically, by worldly standards; it isn't your machisimo that God is interested in. Your personal strength, that both you and shiny have spoken of are nothing, absolutely nothing, compared to the Power that designed/created and fired up this universe. Nothing.

And that is what scares you. It scares all men. Women have an inner connection to creation and cycles and what it means to carry a life inside of them, that WILL be born...that they have no control over how it happens, when it happens or how well it goes...but it WILL happen. If they fight it, they will increase their pain unecessarily. They can even die...and in the old days, they often did. They died most often of shock.

So we come back, full circle, to the fear of God being the beginning of all wisdom. Biblical fear is awe...the feeling you get, if you have ever had it, when you realize Who He Really Is...and that He IS All Powerful and All Knowing. All your delusions are shattered, thank God, and you know, that you know that you know...but, you also realize that this GREAT BIG HUGE TOTAL POWER HOUSE OF THE UNIVERSE, has not only had MERCY on YOU, little old you...but that He LOVES YOU WITH ALL OF HIS MIGHT....POWER...AND THAT'S THE TRUTH.

All else is foolishness. Little "g's". By the way, anyone that puts their 'own truth' as shiny puts it, before all else, is an idolator. That's what The Good Book says. The Only Good Book. The book that has been most printed, most distributed and most read: The Holy Bible.

So yeah guys. We are in the end times. I never know how long I will be here. In this geographical location, on soulcast, or on the planet. Sound dramatic? It is. This is the universe in all of 'his' glory Sean. We have created...no, let's call a spade a spade: We humans have systematic destroyed and degraded what was once a perfect system, and lo and behold; Who do we blame for it? God. God didn't bring all these disasters upon us, we did. Humans have been following after satan and his plan for a very long time now...under the guise of "personal power, personal strength", etc.

Oh yeah Sean, he exists, you and shiny and a host of others...and myself, and others on this end of the spectrum; are perfect examples of his handiwork. But he hates you. He hates me. He hates everyone. He hates God most of all...and he let's him know it every second of every day.

Those silky smooth enticing words about "your" personal power...in the intellectual world (idolatry too), in the crazy world (scientology, unitarian, bahai, etc.), and in the occult/new age ("you" are god, spirit guides, witchcraft and all rebellion is the same spirit...the same spirit you aren't convinced exists)...yep, those silky smooth enticing words are the exact same words he tempted Eve with. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It seems to work so well. Until The Truth comes around telling you about God's Mercy...and awakening you to His Perfect Love, His Perfect Plan...then things can get a little dicey. Just a little stone like me can make infinite ripples in the universal pond.

WAKE UP

You wanna know what he looks like? In which form would you like your description to be? His supernatural form? Or the one he walks the streets in? Do you think I could ever be the kind of person that sits on the sidelines and takes it easy? I can't. I am not made that way. But man, oh man, was life easier before it all became clear to me. I am such a threat to his perceived domain, that I have become a target for satan. I know when I am a threat and when I am not. I also know what he has sent to deter me...and, as you might have noticed, I have almost given in to that...several times in the past few months.

This present world isn't what you think it is Sean. But don't just take my word for it; go ask your Dad. But this time, really listen. You are fighting the wrong fight man.

In Perfect Love

In MERCY AND TRUTH

Your friend,

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Aug 06, 2007....

P.S. On scientology...why do you think it is one of the top 10 religions Sean? You are a smart guy, why do you think it is so darn popular? Because they teach that you/they, are all gods...and they believe that one day they will be just like the Big G, and that they each deserve their own universe to rule over. Sound crazy? Take a look around you. It is. It is a crazy world, and we are both in it. I am just not 'of it'.

Love,

truth
SeanRenaud said on Aug 06, 2007....

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

My bust it's top 25, course to be fair Christians cheat a little bit by being all lumped together. I think it's popular because there are some people out there who are clearly out of their minds.

As for the base question I've yet to meet a challenge that I can't accept. I know you do what you do out of love, or something similar. I take great effort to be patieint with you and keep the claws in, which as you can see from some of your "collegues" (for lack of a better term) I'm not a nice person when I don't feel like it.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 06, 2007....
L. Ron Hubbard was once quoted in Reader's Digest that if you ever want to be rich, just create a religion.

He created a religion out of science fiction (of which he was an author of), and a theory of psychology - psychotherapy is looked down upon by scientologists because if they looked into it, they'd see their own religion based upon it!

Also, it is endorphin therapy - Scientologists are essentially addicted to their own natural chemicals which trigger pleasurable, happy feelings. Research it for yourself, anybody who dares. People who expose lies often face horrible retribution. If you publicly speak out against Scientology, get ready to be bullied, have your house under watch, or be tied up in litigation until you're bled for every cent you have.

Clearly, not every "god" is worth worshiping, and not every religion brings peace to the human race. You could blame religions, but that is foolish, because it is people who commit evil. I'm tired of hearing the whole of Christianity get blasted by the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, and so on. I have committed not to take part in anything like that, and have apologized on behalf of those who committed such things, but if you judge God based on people, of course He's going to look bad, because people often ARE bad! The same is true for any other religion.

Christianity is popular because it's the truth, in my opinion - but if it really IS the truth, take a closer look guys. Other religions are popular mainly because they promise good things without asking much of its adherents. Scientology has its own mythology of sorts that caters to bettering of self, but it also brings someone out of touch with reality.

Consider also Tom Cruise' infamous behavior on Oprah - it very much coincides with the behavior of someone doped up on their own endorphins, so to speak. Religions that have mandatory tithing are somewhat suspect. Christianity encourages tithing out of faith, not out of obligation. I hear the Mormon church has very strict tithing guidelines that I don't agree with, and Scientology needs donations because it's more business than anything else. all that goes to say, yikes!
SeanRenaud said on Aug 06, 2007....

I almost never bring up the Crusades, the Inquisition or the Witch Trials (save to point out that Europe and America have had a HUGE impact on the world at large. They were VERY likely back during the more formative years of recent world affairs Christians mass murdered non believers. To include the American Indian and to forcibly indoctrine the African American. Which actually is a better point than I'd realized until I wrote it out and read it just now.) That said those things are in the past and shouldn't be used as reasons to look down on Christianity.

I tend to focus on the here and now. When I criticize Christians I tend to lean towards their stances on sex education, expecially as of late gay marriage (and gays in general), vaccinations against STD's (HPV comes to mind), stem cell research (which many scientist think might cure many serious ailments), and abortion.

For the most part I don't even bring in the crazy evangelicals who distrust anybody who might bring peace to the middle east because he's the Anti-Christ.

Also I would bash Mormons and Scientologists more if they had more followers and if everybody else and there mother was already on that bandwagon. It's kinda like bashing Olympians (or whatever a Zeus worshiper would be called today) they've got it rough enough and will never form a significant dangerous voting block so they really aren't worth the energy to beat up.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 06, 2007....
Good thoughts Renaud, and I applaud you for having a good perspective on past matters. I brought them up earlier not to accuse you of doing such things, but to express my frustration in past discussions with all sorts of people, online or not.

There are some whacked-out sects of every religion, to be sure. My take is, I'm a servant of God, and I can never do enough to help my fellow man. Part of that is to expose lies and to point to the truth of Jesus Christ. I don't worry about false religions becoming larger in numbers, but all false religions are appealing because they have some degree of truth. Scientology points to the flaws of mankind and offers an effective, if radical, way to deal with it. But it is covered in deceptions and lies. Hubbard fled the country while his wife served time in jail for Operation Whitewash, where Scientology tried to do surveillance on the US Government to monitor and filter out any negative or incriminating evidence on Scientology.

We're not talking about a Jesus Christ, the foundation of Christianity, a sinless man who was condemned on false accusations. We're talking about a man who plagiarized psychological theory, was a convicted criminal, and openly created a set of beliefs for profit. Not to mention, Hubbard also dabbled in satanism and even screwed over those he lived with before going on to found Scientology. We're talking about a guy who lied about his military prestige (of which there was little), puffed up any source of importance he could, and made up a bunch of religious history that man now accept as fact. Germany was right to refuse filming of the Operation Valkyrie-inspired movie with Tom Cruise, because he is a prominent figure of a cult, albiet a lucrative one.
truthsayer said on Aug 06, 2007....

But I don't feel bashed by you Sean. I hope that doesn't disappoint you, or your readers ; ) I feel like anyone that is actually and earnestly searching for the truth and to be a better person, has the right motivations. God knows that. He is the only One that knows our hearts. I would rather talk to someone that is earnestly questioning and seeking the truth, believer or unbeliever, than talk to someone that is judgmental and has no love...or one who does things for the attention it gets them...or the appearance of 'holiness' without the real deal.

My views on the topics you mentioned come from love too. I wish I could tell you more, but I am limited by some things, and can't really give all the examples I would like to. Not in this forum.

Let me say this though. Having been raised in the United Methodist Church gave me a unique insight into a few things. They have lost their fire. They no longer have the truth, but only have the appearance of having it. Like you mentioned about all Christians being lumped together; we are all called by His Name, yet as you read in Revelations, there are some that have accepted the false teachings and false doctrines of the Nicolaitans, and others that have been affected by the spirit of Jezebel. They redesigned God to their own liking: picking and choosing the parts of the Bible that they liked and understood...that fit in with their own biases...but not necessarily TRUE. They haven't lost it totally, yet. The conferences keep battling it out, thank God.

My family of origin was destroyed before it started by abortion. Adoption is an option. Abortion causes all sorts of damage that you obviously don't know about. During pregancy horomones are released that protect a woman from many different forms of cancer for her entire life. Lesbians have a higher ratio of these forms of cancer because they often never have children. An interrupted pregancy makes a woman more susceptible to breast cancer and many other cancers as well. They do not have to explain all of these things when a woman seeks an abortion. They don't tell them about the difficulties they may face in conceiving either. But don't worry Sean, it is only a woman being lied to and lead down this insane path of destruction. I mean that not to you personally...but all men in general. An abortion isn't as big of a deal to a man. After all, it is housed in the woman's body and will continue to be a problem, for the life of the woman...not that sperm donor. Don't get me started on this atrocity, ok? A woman is not very highly regarded in this society anymore. My mother in law professes to be a Christian...Four Square Church trained for ministry...now that's not a slam against them, but her own character...she said she prayed, and God told her it was okay for her to take her daughter to get an abortion. Go figure.

My own mother had an abortion and prayed and asked God to forgive her, years and years later. She sat there one day, and said smugly, Dr. C told me that I don't have to worry about being forgiven...he said the God forgave me a long time ago. That is true. But, I asked her, if God had to "forgive her", why did she go walk with my insane abusive brother as a Pro Choice "escort" at the local abortion clinic at his whim? Did she have to ask God's forgiveness for walking other children of God into get their babies killed? Granted I didn't use those words, but that is the gist of it Sean. It makes no sense. No sense at all. I have told you about my failure to adopt my nieces baby, but see her through the adoption...only to have her mother come get her from my house right after that and find a doctor to perform a late-term abortion on her...when she was between five and six months along. How do you feel about that? No big deal that they allowed that baby to be born feet first, then keep it from coming all the way out of the birth canal only so they could stick a knife into the baby's little brain and pith it's brains like it was a frog in biology class? You wanna talk to me about cruelty? About injustice?

My family is full of it. I have a ton of experience. I doubt that you want me to go on. I could though. Maybe I will someday. Right now, I am disgusted again. I need a breather. Remind me to tell you about my daughter some day...but not today.

Later man,

truth

P.S. I had to post this in my blog first, in draft...so that I can own my own stuff. Sorry it took me so long. Take care. truth
SeanRenaud said on Aug 06, 2007....

@Lid: Like I said I don't need to defeat Scientology, you and Truth and hell even Shiningstar will take care of that on your own. What's more is nobody will come to its defense. Makes it a minimal threat you know?

@Truth: That was kind of my point, even when you are frustrating me I make an effort not to bash you. I'm sure I've bashed Lid but I try not to, you guys are good guys (maybe a tad confused :-P) but good guys. Now examine (if you like there is little point) my interactions with lbfno7, shiningstar or CamDaMan. I'm not afraid to call somebody a fucking idiot. Be flattered.

They redesigned God to their own liking: picking and choosing the parts of the Bible that they liked and understood...that fit in with their own biases...but not necessarily TRUE.

This right here is a VERY important thought process. Particularly since in MOST cases the Bible says what it means. The vast majority of it is literal not figurative and when it is figurative it's usually quite clear on that.

As for your abortion facts lets be fair here. Abortion is a horrible thing. It shouldn't be done and no woman should ever feel that is her best choice. The fact is that children don't get adopted, they grow up in the system. Parents who can't afford them keep them and start lives of crime. I'd be willing to bet that the correlation between legal abortion and decreased crime is similar to the correlation of having children and not getting cancer. A strong enough corrleation that it is hard to be inteligent and ignore them but quite possibly just that a correlation and not a causation. Besides legal or not it still happens, it's a matter of safety for the woman also.

I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion. When you can find me a person who woke up went to her SO and said, hey baby I've been thinking, I want to have an abortion so lets have sex! Then I'll believe in the myth of the pro-abortion person (I'm not accusing you of this, I'm saying many on your side are for that. And if you want to call yourself pro-life rather than anti-abortion because you don't support abortion clinic bombers I'll spot you that.

Partial births are particularly disgusting. The only reason to defend them is because banning them is the first step back into the dark ages where women did it in the shower with a hanger. What's more is that the only reason to attack them is because "your" side believes they can chip it away, why else focus so much attention on a process that makes up .17% of all abortions?

To me it's the same reason why I feel compeled to defend Jack McClellan and why I wrote and entire essay defending a man who said we should forsake the military and many other horrible things about our armed forces.

Unfortunately for me my morality (such that is) doesn't allow me to pick my sides based on who you are, it's a matter of what you are doing. I take people issue by issue (whenever possible, obviously I get one vote so I pick the guy who's side I'm able to take most often) but I'll still defend those who are normally against me when they are speaking sense.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 06, 2007....

@Lid: Like I said I don't need to defeat Scientology, you and Truth and hell even Shiningstar will take care of that on your own. What's more is nobody will come to its defense. Makes it a minimal threat you know?

@Truth: That was kind of my point, even when you are frustrating me I make an effort not to bash you. I'm sure I've bashed Lid but I try not to, you guys are good guys (maybe a tad confused :-P) but good guys. Now examine (if you like there is little point) my interactions with lbfno7, shiningstar or CamDaMan. I'm not afraid to call somebody a fucking idiot. Be flattered.

They redesigned God to their own liking: picking and choosing the parts of the Bible that they liked and understood...that fit in with their own biases...but not necessarily TRUE.

This right here is a VERY important thought process. Particularly since in MOST cases the Bible says what it means. The vast majority of it is literal not figurative and when it is figurative it's usually quite clear on that.

As for your abortion facts lets be fair here. Abortion is a horrible thing. It shouldn't be done and no woman should ever feel that is her best choice. The fact is that children don't get adopted, they grow up in the system. Parents who can't afford them keep them and start lives of crime. I'd be willing to bet that the correlation between legal abortion and decreased crime is similar to the correlation of having children and not getting cancer. A strong enough corrleation that it is hard to be inteligent and ignore them but quite possibly just that a correlation and not a causation. Besides legal or not it still happens, it's a matter of safety for the woman also.

I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion. When you can find me a person who woke up went to her SO and said, hey baby I've been thinking, I want to have an abortion so lets have sex! Then I'll believe in the myth of the pro-abortion person (I'm not accusing you of this, I'm saying many on your side are for that. And if you want to call yourself pro-life rather than anti-abortion because you don't support abortion clinic bombers I'll spot you that.

Partial births are particularly disgusting. The only reason to defend them is because banning them is the first step back into the dark ages where women did it in the shower with a hanger. What's more is that the only reason to attack them is because "your" side believes they can chip it away, why else focus so much attention on a process that makes up .17% of all abortions?

To me it's the same reason why I feel compeled to defend Jack McClellan and why I wrote and entire essay defending a man who said we should forsake the military and many other horrible things about our armed forces.

Unfortunately for me my morality (such that is) doesn't allow me to pick my sides based on who you are, it's a matter of what you are doing. I take people issue by issue (whenever possible, obviously I get one vote so I pick the guy who's side I'm able to take most often) but I'll still defend those who are normally against me when they are speaking sense.
StupidGenius said on Aug 08, 2007....

"nods in agreement with sean"
shiningstar said on Aug 08, 2007....

What a world we could create TODAY if every church, every religion cleaned up their own neighborhood. In my town there are probably over 50 churches. What if they each taught that any person has the god-fire within them and create their own reality based on their personal life choices. What if they taught parents and peers to respect their children, validate their ways of expressing and live a life of peace and joy for them to emulate. What if the people were taught to love and respect every person just because they too are alive because of that god-fire within them. What if all problems were solved and people were assisted in having the tools that help them heal. What if all people were taught to not judge a situation or a person but to discover why it exists at all and seek ways to end it. What if every church focused on just the few blocks around them and cleaned it up so there were no drugs, no thiefs, no poverty, no separation and no discrimination. That , to me, is the place for the religions. Not is some far away piece of real estate that they sell people in order to make them feel good about themselves and their place in another world. First let's heal this world.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 08, 2007....
That's a good goal, shining. I think it's clear though, that we've got a vastly diverse set of beliefs amongst even 4-8 of us here in this thread.
shiningstar said on Aug 08, 2007....

One can change the world my friend. Community is the only thing that works. It does not have to be based on any mans religion. It is the people coming together in order to survive and create a world that workd for everyone equally. Peace
boyzmom said on Aug 09, 2007....
I agree that community works but religion is what gets in the way. A person sees that the church is sponsoring a community event and won't go because it is church related and the church can't get past their desire to spread the word and have to make people set through a sermon or something so they feel their good deeds are about God. Kindness is what is needed.
StupidGenius said on Aug 09, 2007....

Unfortunatly religions will never come together because they all believe that they are the truth. They do not accept any other religions as anything but an obsticle to their world dominance.

Religious places of worship are like shops that are in competition with each other for business, they rely on funds generated by followers to survive, thats why most religions encourage their members to go out and recruit people the join them.

Rediculous in my opinion.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Aug 09, 2007....
Hey SG!

I gotta say that a lot of religions are run like a business, and it's not always voluntary.

What do you guys think of a Christian church that does not take an offering, and doesn't demand or ask its congregation for money?
shiningstar said on Aug 09, 2007....

I agree with you SG. Peace
StupidGenius said on Aug 09, 2007....

Lidstrom

If a chuch dosnt take any offerings and dosnt ask for any money then they are obtaining their funds from another source. Money makes the world go round the world go round blah blah blah blah.

Shining, thanks.

SG
shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....

When accused in this post of worshipping "Satan" I can only laugh. There is no Satan. It is just another of the many creations of religion. Jesus was so accused because he too tried to teach people away from Jehovah so the war lords would not devestate our world as they have and are doing because we didn't listen.Peace
lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
Accused of worshipping Satan? Well, I doubt that very much shining. But according to everything said about Satan in the Bible, you're doing him more favors with your beliefs than you are for Jesus Christ. Since your view is in direct conflict with what the Bible says, what is your basis for believing what you do?
shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....
82 my view is not in contradiction to the Bible.I know that Satan is a creation of religion just as your beliefs about Jesus are.My beliefs are based on the knowledge and definition of love which Jesus represents and Jehovah does not. As I have stated before if the story of Santa was mixed with the story of Scrooge all would see the differences but since the perception is changed by religion no one appears to see the stories of Jesus and Jehovah as two different ones.No matter what horribleness Jehovah did religious believers call it "good".He kills. He is good. He turns woman into stone. He is good. He calls for nation to be slaughtered. He is good. He condemns women. He is good. He stops communication between people. He is good. He asks a man to murder his son in cold blood. He is good.He intimidates and threatens people. He is good. Jesus comes along and religion sells the people the idea that either Jesus is the son of Jehovah are he is Jehovah himself(One with him). Jesus said the fruit will not fall far from the tree. This means that the offspring will be like it's parent. He knew religion would try and tie him to Jehovah. He was loved and Jehovah was hated. They needed a "good" person who had the same power to bring the flock back to Jehovah for they were ever so tired of him.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....
Wait. Why would Jesus assume he would be connected to Jehovah in a nation that was under Roman rule?
lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
Now I know why you believe you view isn't contradicting the Bible...

Every biblical reference you just made was taken out of context:

God destroyed the wicked people of Sodom and Gomorrah for despicable acts of rebellion and fornication. Do we do any less giving someone the death penalty for rape and murder, perhaps?

Lot's wife became a pillar of salt because she disobeyed God. He told them not to look back at the destruction, but she disobeyed. See the trend? Man disobeys, God punishes.

God called for the nations inhabiting the Promised Land to be slaughtered because He knew they were going to lead the Israelites away from God with their false gods and immorality. They gave no heed to the true God, and they were punished. Just look at what happened when Israel let some of those wicked people live among them - they corrupted the Israelites and turned them to other gods.

God condemning women? Which one? If she disobeyed God, shouldn't she be punished? What about Abraham's wife, Sarah? God promised her and Abraham a son even though she was barren and in her 90's. After waiting awhile, she got impatient and told Abraham to sleep with her maid Hagar, and Hagar bore a son named Ishmael. But because of their impatience, Ishmael was born as a wild man, being at odds with his brother, himself, and everyone. God was also merciful though, because He blessed the nation that came from Ishmael, which is suspected to be the entire Arab nation - blessed with great wealth (oil, anyone?), but at constant unrest and strife. God didn't strike down Sarah, did He?

The son of Abraham that God would make into a mighty nation was Isaac. God tested Abraham's faith by asking Him to slay his son, Isaac, even though God already said that a nation would come forth from his descendants. Lo and behold, God STOPPED Abraham from killing Isaac, because Abraham trusted that God would be faithful no matter what. So Isaac lived. I am not twisting words, shining. It's right there in the Bible.

God stops communication between people. Are you referring to the Tower of Babel? Nimrod, the great hunter, was said to be the ruler of Babylon, and constructed the tower of Babel out of arrogance toward God. God wasn't trying to rain on their parade; He was stopping them from rebelling against Him. He confused their speech and scattered them across the Earth. In other words, God won't limit what we do to love others and to serve Him, but He will frustrate our efforts to become gods ourselves, or at least be arrogant against Him.

No doubt that God is intimidating; just looking at Him would kill a normal man, that's why Moses spoke to a burning bush. And threatening, well, if you mean He told His people of the consequences of sinning, then yes, they needed a wakeup call to repent of their sins, or face consequences. Are loving parents any different when they punished us as children? We hated them at times too, but at some point we grow and see they punished us to teach us right and wrong, and to keep us from harm. They did it out of love. And so does God.

Jesus made no mistake about who He was: the Son of God. God Himself said, "This is my Son, whom I love...with Him I am well pleased." In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus said, "Not as I will, but as you will." He knew it was God's will that Jesus be killed on the cross to set us free from sin, and even though He had to willingly do so, He knew God's plan was the best thing He could do. Jesus loved God and allowed Himself to die because He knew it would set mankind right with God again. And for God to allow His Son to die like that is a loving thing, indeed.

Jesus did not want religion built around Him, true. He threw out the moneychangers from God's temple. He did not want falsely pious priests or commoners making a business or religion out of Him. Does that make the Christian church wrong to tithe? NO...God said to tithe 10% as a sacrificial offering to Him, and that we would be blessed many times over for this. I can testify that tithing has brought blessing upon me and my wife. Remember: God doesn't need our money to work, but as people, we need to use money as means to bless others. It is a blessing for us, not a handicap of God.

If people were tired of God/Jehovah, it was from their own complaining spirit which is also well-spoken of in the Old Testament, shining.

Simply put, with a basic understanding of the Bible explained above, your views do not line up. If I pick and choose my own personal religion, especially a power of self, I can put myself beyond the reach or listening of sensible correction or teaching from others. If I create my own reality, no one else can tell me I'm wrong. And that is a dangerous way to live. I will adhere to the Bible because it holds me accountable, and because it teaches me about Jesus Christ in the right way, not just telling me what I want to hear.
shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....
If one plants wheat one will get wheat. If one plants Jehovahism one gets Jehovahism. Just how wonderful was it to live in the days of Jehovah with his many laws and wicked ways.??? He brought a world of laws, strict laws and laws for every tiny piece os the peoples lives.He brought wars upon wars.He set people against each other. He condemned, judged, intimidated and ruled with an iron hand. See how this resembles our present day world??If we had planted Jesusism we would have loving, compassionate people who refuse to judge or condemn and we would be living in peace. The fruit will not fall far from the tree> It is easy to see which tree was planted and has grown. Which consciousness would you rather meet in the streets on a dark night? The consciousness of a loving Jesus or the bully Jehovah? Joy To All.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
"He who has ears, let him hear." Jesus said as much. Will you hear what Jesus said, shining? Or if you're intent upon reiterating your point, can you tell me what your beliefs are anchored on?
shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....
Of all of those ever so WONDERFUL things that you quote from your Bible saying that Jehovah did, which one fits your definition of love??. According to the dictionary one of the three words that define love are upholding the one you love, cherishing them and adoring them. Is that what he was doing to the people? Is that the way you treat your loved ones? King of the Castle??I can do anything to you because I am bigger, older, have the money/power in the house?The old, male way of domination has taken a hard hit because no one wants to wash their castle any more or lay down and be walked upon. These are all the "loving" examples set by Jehovah that bespeaks the definition of bully.
StupidGenius said on Aug 11, 2007....

Another quote from a charector in a book lid? There is no debate on religion, it is a non discussion. One of us argues fact the other argues fiction, its like me arguing with someone who believes everything that happened in the Lord of The rings realy happened.

When you say god did this and god did that, you are relying on a book and the book is both inconsistant and contradictory. You wont hear a scientist read from a text book and state one thing which is then stated differently on the next page.

SG
muckpar said on Aug 11, 2007....

A potter creates a pot and decides to destroy it because he chooses to, is the potter then immoral?

truthsayer & lidstrom82 I admire both of you for being defenders of the faith in a sea of unbelief.
StupidGenius said on Aug 11, 2007....

A potter? Cant even begin to explain how rediculous that is.

SG
StupidGenius said on Aug 11, 2007....

Sean This video helps people who rely on the story of jesus to understand that what christians belive is just a version of a story told for much longer than christianity has even existed. This is 9mins long and very interesting. Explains the similarity between the story of jesus and many other charectors before him.

Lidstrom, i would be interested to hear your take on this seeing as you are a strong believer in Jesus.

SG
shiningstar said on Aug 11, 2007....
Ho-Hum SS
StupidGenius said on Aug 12, 2007....

18 hours and no further comment. Maybe they are converted... and maybe pigs will fly one day lol.

SG
truthsayerlord said on Aug 13, 2007....
very facinating vid
i found this page because some guy has almost the same pseudonyme as me
ho hum
but i think i know something that might interest you, although it is not in the context of jesus christ, but hell, a couple of comments before this one people are talking about potters, so:

Driven to despair by his fruitless attempts to understand the Universe, the sage Devadasa finally announced in exasperation :

ALL STATEMENTS THAT CONTAIN THE WORD GOD ARE FALSE

instantly, his least-favorite disciple Somasiri replied: "the sentence I am now speaking contains the word God. I fail to see, Oh Noble Master, how that simple statement can be false."
Devadasa considered the matter for several Poyas. Then he answered, this time with apparent satisfaction :

ONLY STATEMENTS THAT DO NOT CONTAIN THE WORD GOD CAN BE TRUE

After a pause barely sufficient for a starving mongoose to swallow a millet seed, Somasiri replied : "if this statement applies to itself, Oh Venerable One, it cannot be true, because it contains the word God. But if it is not true-"
At this point, Devadasa broke his begging-bowl upon Somasiri's head, and should therefore be honoured as the true founder of Zen.
bloc said on Aug 13, 2007....
your zen riddle seems to imply that people shouldn't think deeply. Is that the essence of zen?
truthsayerlord said on Aug 13, 2007....
perhaps, but it is also an example of the fact that an atheist can waste his time trying to disprove the existence of god, as long as people want to believe it there will always be an argument, but hopefully one day everyone shall come to their senses
truthsayer said on Aug 13, 2007....

Hi Sean, bloc and others:

I wondered how long it would take for someone to start using my nick. Well, hi there truthsayerlord. You sound like someone with truthsayer-envy ; )

Be assured bloc. It isn't me : )

It might be a disgruntled athiest, or maybe it's a "coincidence".

Talk to y'all later.

truthsayer
SeanRenaud said on Aug 13, 2007....
Which one is the clone?!
truthsayer said on Aug 13, 2007....

Lol Sean:

I wouldn't say "clone", unless you think this guy is participating a nature versus nurture study! Of course, I have a new nature and a new Nurterer : ) Oh this can be fun I see ; )

This happened years ago too. You may start seeing them all over the place now.

My nickname was hijacked before in 1995 and 1996. I shouldn't have written about that here, and given someone "copy catter" ideas. : ( They even want my ideas Sean! Arggggh! Just kidding : )

Oh well...imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ; )

I never saw the nickname on the internet before me. I did a lot of research on it before I used it too. I used to be kind of, well, obsessive ; ) I know, you can't imagine me taking anything too seriously, can you : ) haha.. They even named a video game character after "me". I thought that was interesting. At least the character was supposed to be "wise" : )

I think you'll be able to tell us (me and this little self appointed "lord" person ; )apart pretty easily already...you're a smart guy after all...and you can help out the ones that may not quite get the difference ; )

Later man.

truthsayer
truthsayer said on Aug 13, 2007....

I'm signing off for now buddy. C'ya later. truth
SeanRenaud said on Aug 13, 2007....
Good to have you around.
truthsayer said on Aug 13, 2007....

It is good to have you around too Sean. Yeah, I am still here after all : ) I saw the post by muckpar, and I decided to comment and do my other stuff online at the same time ; ) I posted on it...but I seem to have heard an Echo-echo-cho-o!
truthsayerlord said on Aug 14, 2007....
i've had the nickname truthsayer for about a year now, but i've only recently started using it on the internet, but i found a couple of other truthsayers (unless it's the same guy all the time lol) so i changed it to truthsayerlord,
a question to truthsayer, why is that your nickname?
lidstrom82 said on Aug 14, 2007....

Yo SG...went on anniversary/vacation with the wife, that's why no response came. Truth be told, I learned some stuff and am now looking into young earth creationism. That flies in the face of "proven" radioactive dating, I know, but that was explained to. I'll make sure it makes sense held up to the Bible before going along...that way it's not blind faith, right?
I'll watch the video sometime soon. It should be interesting :)
StupidGenius said on Aug 14, 2007....

No denial of anything in the video then?

"as long as people want to believe it there will always be an argument"

There is no argument, only points of view. A discussion would need to sides that make sense. Only one side acutaly makes sense here. I know which.

SG
truthsayerlord said on Aug 14, 2007....
in answer to stupid genius,
religious fundamentalists whose believe that their purpose in life is to blow sinful people up in the name of god might consider the opposing points of view as an argument,
discussion are nice but both sides of the "debate" are vague, even when taking the occam's razor point of view, it still states that the existence of a superior being may exist even though it is highly improbable
bloc said on Aug 14, 2007....
@sg
what are the two sides, atheists and non atheists?
lidstrom82 said on Aug 14, 2007....
Hey SG, saw the video, response in The Existence of God post.
StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

Bloc Reality/Fact vs mythology
SeanRenaud said on Aug 15, 2007....

I like that answer SG.
StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

cheers sean
SeanRenaud said on Aug 15, 2007....
I like you, there aren't too many people on here that I can call stupid in one blog then turn around five minutes later find a new blog and cheer and be cheered by them.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....
There's much more truth to what you consider "mythology", my friends. Glad to know you guys (SG and Renaud) can slug it out in some issues and find common ground in others, though!
shiningstar said on Aug 15, 2007....
SR; Jesus naturally would know of the present condition of the hebrew people. He knew that they worshipped Jehovah. Those who have the genie(the way of making money) be it Elvis,, JFK or Jehovah they are not going to turn it loose but will try and tie anything new to them in order not to lose what they have. It took a very long time to create the Jehovah people(pecular) and that mindset of following orders without questions. Military is based on this same teaching as is the Stockholm Syndrome. It is that way because it works.But Jesus brought love and that was so unlike Jehovah. But he was used to bring people back into religion even though that was not his purpose.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....

Sure Jesus didn't want religion as we know it, but He did instruct His disciples to share the Gospel of the Jesus' resurrection from the dead, and His forgiveness of sins. That was deliberate, and so was Jesus blasting the religions of His day. That He was blended in as something to make God look better is really a slap in the face of what Jesus came to teach, shining. It's hard to take your words about Jesus as face value when you discount everything that made Him unique in the first place. It's like a child on Christmas who puts their new bike aside to play with the box it came in instead.
shiningstar said on Aug 15, 2007....
You give away both the bike and the box for you believe what they teach instead of looking for the simplist of answers on your own. Jesus asked you to THINK. What do you think the parables are about? Did Jehovah EVER ask anyone to think????You give the same old tired answers that are religious quotes that anyone can give.Try looking for a DIFFERENT reasoning using logic and reason. Begin with the fact that Jesus was always saying to the disciples "do you still not understand". After three years of training your CEO and he STILL didn't know what you were talking about would you make him your CEO??????
StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

Still claiming jesus to be real? call him Horus, thats a more realistic title.

Christianity is not the first religion, it has no greater claim over any other in its truthfullness. I would have greater respect for religious people if they actualy believed in a religion that had started as the original and first religion, you would have a better argumen. Believing in one which has hasnt been around that long considering all the others does not add any merit to its place in hstory. infact it makes it less likely to be true because it is a second hand regurgitation of many other religions that came before it.

SG
shiningstar said on Aug 15, 2007....
SG; To me whether either is real or not is not the question. It is the beliefs that come from these teachings and this mindset that I speak about. It is the fact that we are to use logic and reason to answer questions not to blindly follow the leaders of anything. Peace
StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

Reason and logic simply tell you to be nice to people when they are nice to you. Be nice to people and they will be nice to you etc. Reason and logic in no way shape or form even suggest that you believe in a god or supernatural/mythical being who creates and controls everything.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....
Reason and logic also don't tell you to love your enemies. Anybody can be nice to someone who is nice to them. But being nice and loving even to those that hate you, or reject you, opens to door to transform their hurt into understanding. Love transforms lives, not reason and logic.
StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

so reason and logic cant explain love then?

I beg to differ.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 15, 2007....

No reason and love don't allow for Jews to love Nazis. Which is you know suicide. The kind of love that Christians speak of can only bring death to those who practice it in it's purest form. When you turn the other cheek and love your enemy he will kill you all the same. If you say are going to receive 72 virgins or a mansion on a street lined with gold then that is fine, for the rest of us we don't love our enemies. Reason and logic have given us farming and medicine. Perfect love gives us dead martyrs (at best) who add nothing to the world past that point by virtue of being dead. There are very few cases where being dead is better than being alive.

Also Shining, parables if anything make you think less than the way Jehovah handled things. One throws you into the world and while he gives you some rules the rest of the time he lets you guess. Like a fucking monkey in a cage he electrocutes you for the wrong answer and gives you a banana for the right ones. Jesus broke it down Barney style. The fact that a strange concoctioin of indoctrination and common sense prevented their minds from wrapping around the concept of lay down and die doesn't make his message more complicated or more thought provoking.

I mean seriously how complicated is the Good Samaritan to understand?
StupidGenius said on Aug 16, 2007....

Its complicated if you rely on the contradictorial story/mythology of the bible. I will from this point on, refer to all religion as mythology.

It is a true reflection of its structure and place in society.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
Don't get me wrong, SG - reason and logic have their place. You'd be surprised how much reason and logic go into apologetics - common sense that explains the existence of a Creator.

But reason and logic don't account for having unconditional love for people who hate and persecute you. Most of us aren't in a position to demonstrate that love, because we're so politically correct, or because we just don't try to love people that much, or we're not stepping out the love the people who need it most. We can live comfortably around those who love us, but what happens to those that aren't immediately lovable?

I'm glad you've reached a higher understanding for yourself of what religion means to you. Personally, I think you're only hurting yourself with those views. SG, what I am trying to say is that opening yourself up to the possibility of Jesus Christ being the ONLY worthwhile piece of religion/mythology out there will only benefit you, your future wife, your son on the way. Why? Because you can pray to God, with your gf, if there's a complication in the pregnancy. You can look to the Bible to learn how to be a better husband and a father, when being both is challenging you beyond your ability to understand.

It's true you can love and appreciate loved ones without God. But I believe that striving to love as Christ loved us can mean the difference between having joy in your life, and having regret. Jesus is supposed to be our rock, our solid foundation for the storms of life. That's why He died on the cross. That's why you don't have to be a homeless person, or a child dying of AIDs, before God hears you. Marriage and other relationships actually gain meaning and perspective when one lives their life for Jesus Christ. Call it mythology if you must, SG, but that's the tip of the iceberg of the true importance of the Gospel.
StupidGenius said on Aug 16, 2007....

lol, that is some funny stuff Lidstrom... always thought you had a sense of humour somewhere. On the other hand if you are in the slightest bit serious then I am concerned.

If you use the bible to explain why your marriage is going wrong or to help you make it better then im afraid you will only suceed in making it better if your wife is just as adament that the mythology will help.

My life would not be better with jesus. Not sure your aware of this but people do live normal lives without mythology as a guide book, some people actualy think for themselves instead and that seems to work fine.

Oh and I see your still not worshipping Horus, maybe its about time you did.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
Out of frank honesty, the Bible has been right about everything I've asked of it, while you've been largely wrong, and a bully about it at that.
You can only outrun God for so long, bro. What I'm saying is that you can give up the bitterness and the campaign to rid the world of religion. Most of it IS whack. The God of the Bible is not.
StupidGenius said on Aug 16, 2007....

Ive been wrong? where, when and how? without the bible you would live a normal life just like many others who dont use it. Youy simply believe that you need it so relate all your ups and downs to it. You are entitled to hold onto your blind faith but one day you will realise that people can lead happy normal lives without the mythology of god.

The god of the bible? the god of the old testament which realy is what you should believe because it constitutes the beginning and foundation of your religion is full of hate, war, jelousey, murder etc.

I dont need to run from god, He dosnt exist to me in any shape or form, my mind is logical and I dont need a story to help me to survive.

No comment on the death of babies then?

SG
lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
Without the Bible, I'd be dead, or holed up in a room by myself. My life before Christ was dominated by thoughts of both suicide and isolation. Living the "normal life" doesn't work for some as well as others, I'm afraid.
Just because a normal life by your definition didn't work for me, doesn't mean won't for others. I understand that. Then again, covering your ears and yelling "la la la" while God is standing there the entire time isn't going to make Him go away. In a nutshell, that is where you've been wrong this entire time, SG. But I'm laughing in your face for it. I'm urging you to consider that the love of Christ is intended for all people. Yes, even babies. I commented on that in another post earlier today.
Renaud, loving your enemies does sound pretty counterproductive, but then again, hating someone who is persecuting you is also counterproductive. Let me explain: if someone is persecuting you, they are essentially looking down on you for something you stand for. Many times, they are doing that because they themselves don't understand your own life, your own experience, and why you believe what you do. Further, their persecution might be fueled by hatred and intolerance, borne from a bitter heart. If that is true, then they are desperately in need of a kind of love that will be stronger than their hate.
A Jewish lady came to speak at my church a few weeks back. She explained that she was raised to distrust Christians largely because of the Nazi's, and she did not make the distinction between the two as a child because the Nazi's had "in God we trust" inscribed on their belts. Obviously, the Nazi's stood for things God does not, mass genocide amongst them (God has wiped out entire peoples, but then again, He's God - the Nazi's just had world domination and the extermination of the Jews on their mind).
My point in bringing this up is that she was taught to fear and hate western culture, Christianity, or anything that was different from Jewish faith and customs. And hating their enemies has done nothing for Jews since then, except breed fear and suspicion. In their persecution, they did not love their enemies, and it's done no good for them to do so. Without acknowledging Jesus as their Savior, Jews have no reason or incentive to grow past the ingrained fear, distrust, and suspicion.
The same can be said for all who do not acknowledge Jesus as Savior. The incentive for loving enemies is that even though they persecute you, they are doing so because you ascribe to the Son of God, who told us that "in this world you will face many troubles. But take heart! I have overcome the world." And should a Christian die for persecution, they will spend eternity in Heaven - no, not with virgins, like the Muslims - but in the presence of God. And that is the great reward for faith in this life, including loving even your enemies.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
Oh wow, I just looked back on the post and I majorly goofed. I'm sorry SG... the "But I'm laughing in your face for it" was actually supposed to be "But I'm NOT laughing in your face for it." Not a good sentence to leave a word out of - it sounds harsh otherwise. Sorry for the confusion, dude.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 16, 2007....

I suppose that depends on your definition of enemy. I usually define enemy as somebody who is trying to physically harm me. If enemy were extended (as it logically could) to those who disagree with me I'd have to relabel many if not all of my Soulcast associates. I might not love many of you, but I don't sit around plotting your downfall nor fearing if you've called out a hit on me.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 16, 2007....
Haha...I don't think anyone's got a contract out for ya.
Enemies don't always physically abuse us...it can very well be verbal, emotional, legal abuse. Enemies can take all sorts of forms, even those that pretend to be close to us but really do us harm in some way - even if they're not a good influence.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 17, 2007....

Still my point is that I'm of no use to anybody dead, so really not big on loving the enemies. I believe in taking appropriate actions. Sometimes that can mean keeping the claws in and sometimes that can mean making sure that people understand that you're not the one to fuck with.
truthsayer said on Aug 17, 2007....

May I address this 'loving the enemies' thing Sean? Do you mind Lidstrom (you have shared a definition of persecution that I am saving and attributing to you...if you don't mind)?

I love the responses in here. Most of them are really thoughtful, and I, for one, think that the best conversations and exchanges are wrought from self control and self discipline. But then, I am still a communication consultant...no matter what else I do in life.

I am also composing a blog in response to some of these discussions. But I have a heartfelt question for the athiests, other-god-theists, and the agnostics:

Is it mainly the "judging" of certain behaviors as sin, that you all have the "biggest beef" with the Old and New Testament, and in your practical, natural, daily lives?

Thanks,

truthsayer
SeanRenaud said on Aug 17, 2007....

Is it mainly the "judging" of certain behaviors as sin, that you all have the "biggest beef" with the Old and New Testament, and in your practical, natural, daily lives?

Not really, though I do in general have a problem with the terminology that most people use when they say the word judge. They usually take it to mean that I am condemning your actions for being bad, evil, sinful etc etc. When I say judge, I mean precisely that. I judge your actions. If I think your actions are good I do my best to reward you in whatever way I feel is appropriate. Tipping a waiter for good service is a judgement I have placed upon them, a positive one. Not calling a person an idiot, or allowing them to be snarky is a judgement again a positive one. My calling you a friend, an ally are judgements on your personality and mean that I am willing and even eager to associate myself with you.

My judgements aren't solely (and neither is anybody elses) limited to the idea that I see those who are "inferior" to me and tell them that they are bad people. I do think that I am better than a lot of people though, and those whom I judge to be better than myself I seek to emulate. I do think I'm a better person than Jack McClellan, Adolf Hitler, or O.J. Simpson. I don't care if Jeffery Dahmer repented, I've yet to kill anybody and violate and ingest parts of their corpse. I want no part of a system where a single action that can make that man my equal.

So like I said, that is a damned big problem for me.

I think as a whole religion closes your mind to science, you feel you already have the answers and thus you don't search. I'm strong believer that the Christian Scientist is a lie, like the Christian Gay or the Jewish Nazi they have allowed something vital from one side of their belief or the other to be entirely ignored. We could go with the galaxy revolving around the planet, or disease and mental illnesses being caused by demons. We can step into the modern era and talk about sex education and various forms of birth control.

There are parts of the Bible that have been confirmed (though occasionally like the plagues of Egypt some severe straws were grasped to make it believable) a lot of it has been thoroughly proven wrong though like the Flood. Sure you can find scientists who believe in the Flood, you can also find scientists who back Scientology, up until the late 80's you could find scientists who "believed" there was no link between smoking and lung cancer.
truthsayer said on Aug 17, 2007....

But see Sean, I think you are an exception to most of the soulcasters that argue with me. They call it debate, but that isn't really what it is. I think it is a discussion, but sometimes I don't think there is two-sided listening going on. That is something that I think you and I do with each other. Whether we agree or not, I do think that we each take the time to actually read and think about what the other one is saying...at least, usually we do.

I know you know (; ) that I care about you...at least in some sense. But I also know that you have to ask your own questions, do your own research and make your own decisions (I thought I just heard you say: "d--n straight!" : ) What bothers me is this discounting of personal experience. I mean we would have no science without personal experience...at least not until mankind is replaced by computers ; ) We would have no literature without personal experience. We wouldn't have anything to share or record for other human beings at all, without personal experience! No point reading anything anymore I guess...it's all based on someone's experience on some level, right?

I know I digress, but you started me thinking again...it's all your fault : ) Anyway, as far as my question goes...I have no problem with anything that you just said. I expect differing opinions and perspectives from all human beings...I expect differing opinions and perspectives between myself and other Christians. Can you tell me why "others", I mean 'usually hostile' non-Christians want, or would prefer for me to believe as they believe? I don't even expect anyone that comes to the knowledge and love of Jesus and our Creator (my beliefs, of course) to do it in the same way!

We are each individuals, and yet, we share certain human needs, wants and desires. I just don't get it man. Why do "they", and I know that you are often one  of the ones (or you used to be at least) that make such sweeping statements about Christians...and I know that there are plenty of Christians that make the same sweeping statements about non-believers...Why is that? I am a Christian, and you are not (at this time). So, as a Christian, I am asking you to explain things to me. Help me understand this, please.

Have I ever TOLD YOU how you feel, think or that where you are in life just isn't 'good enough' for me? I usually ask you, then listen. I may respond, and I may even say that there is more information available on the subject that you may or may not be aware of...but I still expect you to read it (or not), think about it (or not) and make your own decision.

I mean, ask me how I have come to the conclusions I have come to...but don't TELL me what I think, feel or know. I have seen SG do that. He is doing what you all accuse 'ALIEN' of doing...but to me, on my own blogs. I have seen the same things from Travelr lately too; but to other Christians: 'Oh, we didn't mean that you were stupid when I said that you believed in Peter Pan or the flying spaghetti monster! Why on earth would you say that?' C'mon Sean, what's your judgement on that statement?  : ) It's pretty self evident.

I wasn't born yesterday.  So, I have seen this kind of thing for a long time. I grew up in a family of athiests and agnostics (and was myself an agnostic at one time)...and I had one set of the best grandparents you could ever ask for. I saw what was working, and what wasn't. I went on my own intellectual quest and I did my own research, into all sorts of things. Things I won't discuss in here. No need to. I know what I know, and it works for me and mine; and I respect that your experiences are your own...that you know what you know; and it works for you and yours. Some of these discussions have just gotten kinda silly, imho.

Anyway, that's why I asked about "sin". Cuz if it's just a matter of people not liking the feeling that comes from the inside, when they hear that they are a "sinner", or that they "sin"...that is just what the Bible calls feeling "conviction". But if they don't believe in "sin", then why do they have that feeling that usually makes them so mad? I could try right now, but I can't "give you" a feeling. Why would something that they don't even believe in, bother them so much. I'd just look at someone that was talking about something I didn't believe in, and say, 'whatever', smile, and get on about my own business. If y'all want to believe in something, or nothing...so be it.

Right?

Well, I am sure you'll have a hay day with this one. But I reserve the right to be human, for now ; ) And I want to understand you and your friends.

As always,

truth
StupidGenius said on Aug 17, 2007....

Lidstrom and truth... have you researched Horus yet? I have quoted the similarities, any explanation for this. Fallen angel just dosnt cut it im afraid. Jesus is clearly a copy of the same story... oh and heres another one for you... Mythra.

Mythology my freinds... pure and simple. Dosnt this bother you in the slightest?

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 17, 2007....

I am most likely an exception, as are you. If I ever told you that you weren't extraordinary I was probably really annoyed that you'd made a point that I couldn't counter.

I like you to. :-) I don't mean to discount personal expereince, though your basic premise is flawed. I don't think anybody in science discounts personal experience. That is usually what science is about is a personal opinion backed by personal experience (experimentation/observation). The place where it ventures off is when peer review is ignored. If it can't be recreated how do I know you didn't just make something up, and if I can't confirm or deny the accuracy of your statements how can I safely make decisions based up said statements?

Can you tell me why "others", I mean 'usually hostile' non-Christians want, or would prefer for me to believe as they believe?

If this question were asked by anybody not named Truthsayer I wouldn't grace it with response. Since I think you genuinely want to know I'll go ahead an answer it to the best of my ability and try my damnest not to get to wordy.

The vast majority of people, atheist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Democrat, Republican, Liberal want others to think as they do. They believe, as well they should that they are right. Just like they believe their "culture" is superior to other cultures. If they didn't then they should be striving (as we all should in various ways) to better themselves. If there is an example of how to better yourself why wouldn't you emulate that? When it comes to a belief in religion people who are religious want others to believe as they do because of a desire to help that person improve their lives through a relationship with a diety. Or be saved when they pass from this earth. Those who don't want you to think as they do because they want you to stop making decisions that effect them based on something that isn't true. I'd like some help improving this world.

This applies to any subject, but most specifically to things that effect the community as a whole. I could care less what you do in the privacy of your own home (so long as it's effects stay there) To use an abstract lets say that you held a religious belief that diseases were punishments from a diety, and that instead of penicillin you believed in the power of sacrifice, say burning rice krispies. You start a campaign to eliminate hospitals and instead hire rice krispie burning shamans.

It comes from the same roots as when I say a given culture, say black culture is corrupt. I don't mean soul food and jazz. I mean the reverence given to gangster culture, I mean Kwanzaa which serves a single purpose, to separate African Americans from the rest of America. Which is the opposite what we should be doing. We should be thinking of US as American's first and integrating. It's a melting pot not a pizza. Sorry for that rant, sepratists piss me off.

I see the point about the sin, thing is that we are such a Christian nation that sin has a meaning that extends beyond religious conotations. It means you did something wrong. Calling someone a sinner is like calling them a criminal.

Also I see your point about the lightly veiled insults. It's rather dishonest, I try not to backpeddle, if I think you said something silly I'll tell you. Just because I'm pulling punches, keeping the claws in et cetera doesn't mean the claws aren't still there or that I'm going to apologize for nicking you on occasion.

I do make sweeping generalizations. If I'm not talking about you do one of two things, ignore it or do what I've constantly called on Muslims to do. Start sufficiently separating yourself from those I am talking about that I can make sweeping generalizations about them not you. I don't have time to specify the fact that there are no less than five accepted kinds of Creationists including Theistic Evololution which doesn't seem to deviate any from Evolution. (it assumes that God started life rather than the Theory of Spontaneous Generation, which I might add Stanley Miller's work shows to be highly probable, but the origin of life, the Big Bang and Evolution despite many Christian's attempts to merge them are infact separate and distinct theories.)

To once again quote my comic (I like comics for making points) I should have to be so specific in my language that I eliminate every other possibility before I speak a single word.
StupidGenius said on Aug 17, 2007....

Spot on sean

SG
truthsayer said on Aug 19, 2007....

StupidG, I have answered you so many times on the same thing that I feel like the coca-cola guy, max head room ; ) I gotta draw the line somewhere dude.

Truth : )
truthsayer said on Aug 19, 2007....

Thanks for the response Sean, I'll get back to you. I got a computer virus from someone on soulcast or one other web site. My computer is threatening to blow.

I am on someone else' s computer now, and they are expecting it back. Hang with me, as you said a lot and I want to respond properly.

Later,

Truth
lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
Gosh SG, you're so adamant about getting a response. You can afford me to take the weekend off, can't ya? :)

This is what I found on a general overview of Horus from http://touregypt.net/godsofegypt/horus.htm. I have concluded that Horus was worshipped in many forms, some of which listed below. What I wish to communicate to you, SG, is that there is no one definitive history of a god that is worshipped for different reasons. There are very little parallels to Christ.

What's more, if you count all religion as mythology, why use "nonsense" (Egyptian mythology) to debunk more "nonsense" (Christianity)? Your evidence is based on something you don't personally value. In the meantime, I'm going to stick to an unchanging God and a loving savior.

Behold, Horus!

Other Names: Heru, Hor, Harendotes/Har-nedj-itef (Horus the Avenger), Har-Pa-Neb-Taui (Horus Lord of the Two Lands)

Patron of: the living Pharaoh, rulers, law, war, young men, light, the sun, many others depending on the particular variant.

Appearance: His most common form is that of falcon-headed man, but he is also shown as a falcon, a lion with the head of a falcon, or a sphinx. He is also shown as a falcon resting on the neck of the pharaoh, spreading his wings to either side of the pharaoh's head and whispering guidance in his ear.

Description: It is nearly impossible to distinguish a "true" Horus from all his many forms. In fact, Horus is mostly a general term for a great number of falcon gods, some of which were worshipped all over Egypt, others simply had local cults. Yet in all of his forms he is regarded as the prince of the gods and the specific patron of the living ruler.

The worship of Horus was brought from the outside by neighboring tribes who invaded and then settled into Egypt. He was their god of war, but was quickly absorbed into the state religion, first as a son of Ra, then changing to become the son of Osiris. He was the protector and guide to the pharaoh and later pharaohs were believed to be his avatar on earth. Horus was also the patron of young men and the ideal of the dutiful son who grows up to become a just man.

The most popular story of Horus is the one in which he grows to manhood to avenge the death of his father Osiris by battling against his cruel uncle Set. In many writings, he is said to continue to battle Set daily to ensure the safety of the world.

Worship: Worshipped widely throughout all of Egypt, even his variant forms were widespread.

Variants:

Harmakhet
God of the dawn and of the morning sun, he is also worshipped as a keeper of secret wisdom. Harmakhet's form is that of a sphinx or a sphinx with the head of a ram, often depicted as a companion to Khephri. It is thought that the Great Sphinx, staring at the eastern horizon, represents him.

Har-Pa-Khered/Harpokrates
Rarely found depicted without his mother Isis. He is shown as a nursing infant with the royal sidelock or sometimes even with a crown, thus demonstrating his right to kingship from the moment of his birth. His worship became very popular in the New Kingdom, spreading even into the Greek and Roman civilizations.

Har-Sa-Iset/Harsiesis
This is the form of Horus that is most familiar, the son of Osiris and Isis. He was conceived magically after the death of Osiris, and Isis hid him away on an island to protect him from Set. In this form he is worshipped as an infant and is beseeched to gain his mother's protection for the worshipper.

Horus Behudety/Horus of Edfu
God of the noontime sun. This particular variant was first worshipped in the western Delta and spread south, a cult center being established at Edfu. He is represented by a winged sun or as a lion with the head of a hawk. Horus Behudety fights constantly against Set and an army of darkness to ensure that the sun rises each day.

Horus the Elder (Haroeris)
An early form of Horus, when his cult was still new in Egypt. A god of light, his left eye was the sun and his right eye the moon. He was the brother of Osiris and Set, and the husband of Hathor.

Ra-Harakhte
A combined god of Horus and Ra, he was the god of the sun and took it on its daily path across the sky. He is represented as a falcon or a falcon-headed man wearing the solar disk and the double crown. Sometimes he is pictured wearing the atef crown and the uraeus.
StupidGenius said on Aug 20, 2007....

So is that a no you dont see the similarity then lol.

Mythra is another example of a similarity between stories.

Lets look at it this way. If a fire broke out in a building and a news reporter wanted to get as accurate a picture of events as possible would he believe the story of the guy standing near the building when the fire started or would he believe the story of a guy who heard about what had happened but wasnt there. The answer is clear. You simply choose to believe the story of Jesus because you find it fits with your lifstyle better but that dosnt make it a true reflection of what actualy happened.

As you have stated above there are many versions relating to the mythology of Horus and one of those variations is that he has the same life story as Jesus accept his was written before Jesus was even drempt up. I find it amazing that you wont even consider for a moment that Jesus is just a copy of another story, the fact that the similarity even exists surley throws some doubt on what you believe to be true.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
Well, think of it this way: we know Horus was worshiped long before Christ, but we don't exactly know when the christlike form of him was created, do we? That's an honest question - can we verify that?

As well, aside from the reference of "king of kings, lord of lords" in the book of the dead, I didn't see the exact parallels between Horus and Christ. Keep in mind, SG, when you challenge something, I find it adequately explained in the Bible, without having to twist its words. At best, parallels between Horus and Christ could be coincedental, they could be untrue rumors that indirectly attack the credibility of Christ (which is not a stretch, coming from you, bro :), Horus could have gained christlike qualities after Jesus' life, or - and here's an interesting thought - Horus' christlike form could have been somewhat constructed by the Jewish prophecies of the Messiah. Old Testament prophecy was around before Jesus, so who's to say Horus didn't mix and match?

Those are all alternative thoughts to consider.

And hey, if the truth fits my lifestyle, why WOULDN'T I accept it?

Besides, if you want to use Horus to debunk Jesus, that means on some level you have to put some stock in what other people said about Horus. That puts you in no better position to explain the fire than I do, honestly.

Jesus is worshiped as Savior of the world, who takes away sins, makes hardened hearts new, healed hurts, and loves the broken and the beaten down. The idea of a Messiah, or savior, was not new even before Jesus, but He was the true savior. You'd sooner think that Horus is battling his uncle Set every day to keep the world safe, than Jesus actually loving us all? No? Then why believe that Jesus is plagiarized from another god?

You said once that if you annoy people enough to make them look at what they're believing, then the battle is won. If you're using one god to refute another, that makes you a hypocrite, because although you don't believe in any religion (mythology as you call it), you apparently believe enough about Horus to assume Jesus copied stuff. And that IS annoying.

However, your challenges have strengthened my faith. I have a better understanding of God. I don't have it all together, no one does - but I seek knowledge just as you do. It reminds me of Return of the Jedi - the Emperor tempting Luke with the dark side - you're like "there's no hope, the only truth is the power of the empire", and I'm like "you're whack, and my friends are about to kick your ass." I don't think God is going to come by and kick your ass, but whenever you experience God, it will be a serious wakeup call.

Call it all myth if you want, that's your loss, bro. But Jesus is the GREATEST myth, borrowing your terminology. It is the greatest story ever told, mainly called such because it's true. Horus was worshiped before Jesus, but belief that the universe revolved around the Earth predated what we now know - that doesn't make it true, just because it's an older belief. Horus ain't the feather in your cap, SG - millions worship Jesus today in all nations, while Horus has passed into history as a distinctly Egyptian deity.
StupidGenius said on Aug 20, 2007....

Stories from the life of Horus had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). If any copying occurred by the writers of the Egyptian or Christian religions, it was the followers of Jesus who incorporated into his biography the myths and legends of Horus, not vice-versa.

"Author and theologian Tom Harpur studied the works of three authors who have written about ancient Egyptian religion: Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834), Gerald Massey (1828-1907) and Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963). Harpur incorporated some of their findings into his book "Pagan Christ." He argued that all of the essential ideas of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. "[Author Gerald] Massey discovered nearly two hundred instances of immediate correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus. Horus indeed was the archetypal Pagan Christ."

Just so you know that Horus was written about before Jesus existed, the story of Horus was not changed after the story of Jesus was thought up.

Horus is simply an example I chose to use to debunk your theory that Jesus was the true savoir etc. That doesn’t mean I believe the story of Horus, I’m simply stating that Jesus was a copy. I don’t believe that Horus was real anymore than Jesus was, its simply another example of mythology.

I’m am using one mythological god to refute the claim that Jesus is original, his story isn’t.

I liked your star wars simile, strange as it was.

Try reading some actual scientifically proven facts, just allow yourself to have an open mind on evolution, as I did when I was young and was taught about Jesus and the bible. Try reading about Darwin’s Theories, try reading about evolution but this time read a true scientific account and by the way, the beauty of science is that its theories are ever updated and change depending on new evidence and improvements in technology. The bible does not change or update its beliefs or historical accuracies because if it did then the bible would have been thrown out long ago.

The older gods (as I have stated many times before) were "got rid of" because they lay doubt on the Christians faith. The Christians spread their word by the sword; therefore the stories of the gods before theirs were erased as much as possible, but not completely.

Have an open mind, I did. Maybe that is what you fear the most because having an open mind may lead you to become an atheist as it has for many others.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
Thanks for clearing up some of the stuff around Horus. He's not the savior of the world, though.
Yes, Star Wars. I don't think of you a shriveled up old dude in a black cloak, though.
I think there are two flaws in what you said: evolution is not the true origin of the universe, and Christianity, despite the Crusades, was not primarily spread by the sword. That's not how it is now, that's not how it was with the disciples. Peter cut off a Roman soldier's ear in defense of Jesus, but not only did Jesus rebuke him by saying, "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword" (which convicts Christians in the Crusades and whatnot as well), but Jesus also healed the man sent to arrest Him. That demonstrates true love; doing good for those who would seek to harm you.
Honestly, I don't think any Christian education you received adequately explained basic questions, such as "How could the Flood really happen?" or, "Where did Cain's wife come from?" or "does radiometric dating disprove the Bible?" There are reasonable scientific answers to all those questions that are consistent with the Bible, but like you often point out, people don't take the time to know WHY they believe what they do. People can follow a real, all-creating God, and still be totally off base with their actions and laziness about knowing what they believe (i.e., spreading the faith by the sword).
In order for me to take faith seriously, I'm going to ask the foremost scientific minds of those that share my faith, naturally. I understand that putting the Bible first will eliminate ideas from my consideration, especially evolution. I know that I can't reconcile evolution with the Bible - there's no possible way they both can be catered to without losing the founding characteristics of both. It has to be one way or the other. And I believe the truth of the universe was made known since Adam and Eve - not discovered by a man (Darwin) in the 1800s whose only degree was (oddly) in theology, and created what many consider to be an inherently racist theory (that different human races are identified by being at higher or lower evolutionary stages depending upon skin color, bone structure, and the like).
Am I happy that Horus apparently had savior-like qualities? Not exactly, that's true. But I do know that human beings ignorant of, or hostile toward God will make up lies, worship other "gods", or seek to become godlike themselves. I do fear that ungodly knowledge will make sense and drive a wedge in my faith, that's for sure. I mean, I think everyone (even you) fears, to some extent, that everything they base their lives on is wrong. That's why the Bible is so controversial to people - they'd rather ignore it than consider that they're living their lives for temporary, pleasurable things that don't count much in God's eyes. But instead of living in fear, I seek knowledge.
All it takes is learning the wrong thing, or getting hurt by religious folk, for an extremely educated person to become venomous toward the Gospel. In that sense, education means nothing, and it hurts the person who champions today's theories over an everlasting God.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 20, 2007....

I've largely stepped back and let SG handle this but I'm forced to tag in here breify.

Lid, how can you say that him finding a earlier myth that has similiarities shows him believing in that myth? What you've said here is roughly the same as saying that in order for me to say that Romeo Must Die is not a documentry I must believe that William Shakespear was who we accept him as being, rather than a nobleman posing as some historians have suspected.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 20, 2007....

I've largely stepped back and let SG handle this but I'm forced to tag in here breify.

Lid, how can you say that him finding a earlier myth that has similiarities shows him believing in that myth? What you've said here is roughly the same as saying that in order for me to say that Romeo Must Die is not a documentry I must believe that William Shakespear was who we accept him as being, rather than a nobleman posing as some historians have suspected.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
What I mean, Renaud, is simply this: to SG, religion is worthless to him. He's already dismissed it as mythology. So how can it hold any weight to use mythology to debunk mythology, in his eyes? Renaud, your point isn't totally clear - can you clarify?
SG, here's a link that debunks your own "mythology":
"Comment: Was Christ's life based on pagan myths?
By W. Ward Gasque
WHEN I first met Tom Harpur just over 30 years ago, he was teaching New Testament studies at Toronto's Wycliffe College. Shortly thereafter, he left the ivory tower to become, in due course, Canada's best-known religious journalist. Since then, he has written 17 books, and several thousand articles and columns; he has also achieved high visibility as a radio and television commentator.
To say that his religious views have changed over the years would be a gross understatement. In 1970, he was an evangelically committed Anglican priest, preparing students to faithfully preach and teach the doctrines of Christianity as understood by the classic creeds of the church. Today, his understanding of God, the world, and salvation seems to be that of a theosophist or a neo-gnostic -- though he continues to consider himself a Christian.
The Pagan Christ (Thomas Allen, 2004) is Harpur's story of his discovery of the writings of Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963), Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834) and Gerald Massey (1828-1907) -- who argued that all of the essential ideas of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. Their thesis was that, toward the end of the third Christian century, the leaders of the church began to misinterpret the Bible.
Prior to this time, Kuhn and company maintained, no one had ever understood the Bible to be literally true, and the narrative material of the Hebrew and Greek Bible had been interpreted as symbol or myth; first among these myths was the concept of the incarnation -- i.e. that God resided within every "fully realized spiritual human being." According to this theory, the leaders of what became Christian orthodoxy made a tragic mistake by identifying this religious experience with a historical event: namely, the birth, life and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth.
According to Harpur, there is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth ever lived. Drawing especially on the writings of Kuhn, he claims that virtually all of the details of the life and teachings of Jesus have their counterpart in Egyptian religious ideas; he also maintains that there are strong parallels between Christ's life and Greek, Hindu and Buddhist myths.
Harper does not quote any contemporary Egyptologist or recognized academic authority on world religions, nor does he appeal to any of the standard reference books, such as the magisterial three volume Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2001) or any primary sources. Rather, he is entirely dependent on the work of Kuhn, who he describes as "the most erudite, most eloquent, and most convincing . . . of any modern writer on religion I have encountered in a lifetime dedicated to such matters."
Who is Alvin Boyd Kuhn? He, along with Higgins and Massey, is given the title 'Egyptologist,' and is regarded by Harpur as "one of the single greatest geniuses of the twentieth century . . . [towering] above all others of recent memory in intellect and his understanding of the world's religious." Kuhn, he writes, "has more to offer the Church than all the scholars of the Jesus Seminar together. More than John Spong . . . C.S. Lewis . . . Joseph Campbell or Matthew Fox. I remain stunned at the silence with which his writings have been greeted by scholars."
As it turns out, Kuhn was a high school language teacher who earned a PhD from Columbia University by writing a dissertation on Theosophy. A prodigious author and lecturer, he had difficulty finding a publisher for his works; most of them were self-published. His only link with an institution of higher learning was a short stint as the secretary to the president of a small college.
I sent an email to 20 of the world's leading Egyptologists, outlining the following claims put forth by Kuhn (and hence Harpur):
* That the name of Jesus was derived from the Egyptian "Iusa," which means "the coming divine Son who heals or saves".
* That the god Horus is "an Egyptian Christos, or Christ.... He and his mother, Isis, were the forerunners of the Christian Madonna and Child, and together they constituted a leading image in Egyptian religion for millennia prior to the Gospels."
* That Horus also "had a virgin birth, and that in one of his roles, he was 'a fisher of men with twelve followers.'"
* That "the letters KRST appear on Egyptian mummy coffins many centuries BCE, and . . . this word, when the vowels are filled in, is really Karast or Krist, signifying Christ."
* That the doctrine of the incarnation "is in fact the oldest, most universal mythos known to religion. It was current in the Osirian religion in Egypt at least four thousand years BCE."
Only one of the 10 experts who responded to my questions had ever heard of Kuhn, Higgins or Massey! Professor Kenneth A. Kitchen of the University of Liverpool pointed out that not one of these men is mentioned in M. L. Bierbrier's Who Was Who in Egyptology (1995), nor are any of their works listed in Ida B. Pratt's very extensive bibliography on Ancient Egypt (1925/1942). Since he died in 1834, Kitchen noted, "nothing by Higgins could be of any value whatsoever, because decipherment of the Egyptian hieroglyphs was still being finalized, very few texts were translated, and certainly not the vast mass of first-hand religious data."
Another distinguished Egyptologist wrote: "Egyptology has the unenviable distinction of being one of those disciplines that almost anyone can lay claim to, and the unfortunate distinction of being probably the one most beleaguered by false prophets." He goes on to refer to Kuhn's "fringe nonsense."
The responding scholars were unanimous in dismissing the suggested etymologies for Jesus and Christ. Professor Peter F. Dorman, of the University of Chicago, commented: "It is often tempting to suggest simplistic etymologies between Egyptian and Greek (or other languages), but similar sequences of consonants and/or vowels are insufficient to demonstrate any convincing connection."
Ron Leprohan, of the University of Toronto, pointed out that, while "sa" means "son" in ancient Egyptian and "iu" means 'to come," Kuhn/Harpur have the syntax all wrong. In any event, the name 'Iusa' simply does not exist in Egyptian. The name 'Jesus' is a Greek derivation of a Semitic name ("Jeshu'a") borne by many people in the first century.
While the image of the baby Horus with Isis has influenced the Christian iconography of Madonna and Child, this is where the similarity stops. The image of Mary and Jesus is not one of the earliest Christian images, and, at any rate, there is no evidence for the idea that Horus was virgin born. And the New Testament Mary was certainly not a goddess (like Isis).
There is no evidence for the idea that Horus was 'a fisher of men' -- or that his followers, the King's officials, were ever 12 in number. KRST is the word for "burial" ("coffin" is written "KRSW"), but there is no evidence whatsoever to link this with the Greek title "Christos" or the Hebrew "Mashiah".
There is no mention of Osiris in Egyptian texts until about 2350 BC; so Harpur's reference to the origins of Osirian religion is off by more than a millennium and a half. Elsewhere, Harpur refers to "Jesus in Egyptian lore as early as 18,000 BCE"; and he quotes Kuhn as claiming that "the Jesus who stands as the founder of Christianity was at least 10,000 years of age." In fact, the earliest extant writing that we have dates from about 3200 BCE.
Kuhn/Harper's redefinition of "incarnation," and their attempt to root this in Egyptian religion, is regarded as bogus by all the Egyptologists I consulted. According to one: "Only the pharaoh was believed to have a divine aspect, the divine power of kingship, incarnated in the human being currently serving as the king. No other Egyptians ever believed they possessed even 'a little bit of the divine'."
Virtually none of the alleged evidence for the views put forward in The Pagan Christ is documented by reference to original sources. The notes refer mainly to Kuhn, Higgins, Massey or some other long-out-of-date work. Very occasionally, there is a reference to a more contemporary work of scholarship, but this often has little or nothing to do with the point made.
Very few of the books listed in the bibliography are recent. Works that are a century or more old are listed by the date of the most recent edition. The notes abound with errors and omissions. If you look for supporting evidence for a particular point made by the author, it is not there. Many quotations are taken out of context and interpreted in a very different sense from what their author originally meant (especially the early church fathers).
Harpur's book is chock full of questionable claims, such as:
* That prior to the fourth century "it was believed that the coming of the Messiah, or Christ, was taking place in the life of every person at all times."
* That "Christianity began as a cult with almost wholly Pagan origins and motivations in the first century."
* That nearly all of the most creative leaders of the earliest church were pronounced heretics and reviled by "those who had swept in and grabbed control of [church] policies."
* That "the mystical/allegorical method of interpreting the sacred Scripture . . . was replaced by a wholly literal/historical approach" (presumably, in the fourth century).
* That "apart from the four Gospels . . . and the Epistles, there is no hard, historical evidence for Jesus' existence coming out of the first century at all."
* That Albert Schweitzer "concluded that there was no traditional Jesus of Nazareth as a historical person."
* That "Paul's Jesus lacks any human quality for the very reason that, in Paul's understanding, he was not a human person at all."
According to Harpur, Christian scholars have a vested interest in maintaining the myth that there was an actual Jesus who lived in history. First, he insists, there was "the greatest cover-up of all time" at the beginning of the fourth century; and thousands of Christian scholars are now participants in this on-going cover-up.
This perspective misses the fact that, for several generations, there have been professors of religious and biblical studies who are Jewish, Unitarian, members of every Christian denomination -- and many of no professed religious persuasion. And there are no religious tests for chairs in Egyptology. Presumably, the Jewish, Unitarian, secular and many very liberal Christians who happen to be recognized scholars have no axes to grind regarding whether or not Jesus actually lived, or whether most of the ideas found in the Bible stem from Egyptian or other Near Eastern religion.
If one were able to identify all of the non-Christian members of the major learned societies dealing with antiquity, it would be unlikely that you could find more than a handful who believe that Jesus of Nazareth did not walk the dusty roads of Palestine in the first three decades of the Common Era. Evidence for Jesus as a historical personage is incontrovertible.
Rather than appeal to primary scholarship, Tom Harpur has based The Pagan Christ on the work of self-appointed 'scholars' who seek to excavate the literary and archaeological resources of the ancient world the same way an avid crossword puzzle enthusiast mines dictionaries and lists of words.
W. Ward Gasque is a co-founder of Regent College in Vancouver, and a historian of early Christianity. "
StupidGenius said on Aug 20, 2007....

And your point is?

Horus is clearly the founding basis for the story of Jesus, Mythra is clearly another indication that the story of jesus is a copy I could name about another 22 names and will do so if you wish. They all were written about before Jesus and they all have the same story. Religion in its most simple form is a means to gather and control groups of people. Its aim is also to strengthen that group agaist persecutors and also physical attack. A person who has no fear of death because he has been told that fighting for his god will bring him reqard when he dies will fight to the death and have no fear of dying. Egyptologists opinions is clear you just chose not to accept it. Thats fine. But if you choose not to accept it then your stance is considerably weakend because you discount a part of the argument because you cant explain it with any strength of opinion.

You are simply arguing that Jesus was the first. Well guess what, he wasnt. Even if you discount horus, mythra etc then Jesus was still not the earliest form of religion. Sun worship was. Lidstrom, you raise points and they get shot down one by one. Im not trying to change your opinion and I understand that attacking someones core belief can in some instances increase stubborness. But you need to recognise that your clinging to a faith that has more holes in it than a hut containing bin laden that is surrounded by gun toting alied forces.

You can continue to make 99.9% faith based arguments but the facts speak for themselves. If you are happy in your Blissfull ingnorance then thats fine, just say that that is the case.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 20, 2007....

I don’t know how much clearer I can make it. Not believing in mythology be it Christian, Greek or Egyptian doesn’t mean we don’t believe it was written or accept the dates for the stories that historians have come to. Once again to use the movie analogy I don’t have to believe that Romeo and Juliet took place to know that it’s story predates Romeo Must Die.

I don't really buy into the Horus/Jesus connection as set in stone. I think that the idea of deities mating with mortals was far from original, both Perseus and Hercules are such beings (which as a trivia point would make Herc more than half god since Perseus was his Grandfather (or great-grandfather). I'm sure that if you dig around enough you could find many other comparisons to other gods in the Jesus story. Bottom line as you point out is, who cares. The thing that makes Buffy the Vampire Slayer a work of fiction isn't the similarities with Anne Rice's Vampire Lestate, World of Darkness's Masquerade or even the original modern vampire Bram Stoker's Dracula. It's because Buffy was made up and proving she had influences doesn't make her fake. By contrast knowing that some girl grew up wanting to be like Buffy Summers doesn't make her fake.

There is terribly little non-biblical evidence for Jesus, but that doesn't really mean anything. Even according to the Bible Jesus wasn't that big a deal to the Romans from whom the majority of our records of that time come from. He didn't lead a rebellion, didn't kill anybody, didn't oppose taxes or anything else to really get himself on the radar so to speak. The point is that the lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
My point is, there's sufficient reason to conclude any connection between Horus and Jesus is, well, not true :) You say what Egyptologists say is clear - yet Egyptologists in what I quoted said that three guys got the syntax wrong and basically published hooey.
I never said Jesus was the first savior god. I am saying that Jesus is the ONLY god that actually WAS a savior. You can't say Horus inspired Jesus if the evidence is false.
I can understand that though you don't believe in any religion, you use mythology to debunk mythology (in this case, mythology meaning religion). Just know it doesn't hold any water. Neither do religions that ensure murdering others will please your god. By right I have no fear of death when other people hate and persecute me, whether they are fueled by politics or their own religion.
It is sad that I can't communicate to you things that you process. Insulting my intelligence doesn't drive your point home, either. When I debunk things you say, SG, you revisit something else and claim I said something I didn't. You have two ears and one mouth - use them in relation to the ratio between the two.
It rightly angers me that three guys would take Egyptian mythology and spread (knowingly or unknowingly) lies about the foundation of Christianity. Stuff like that DOES erode the faith of those who don't know better.
I would pray that your crusade against all religion would cease one day. That you would open yourself up to the loving God you once learned about, because you will be blessed for doing so. I would hope that you would have open dialogue with Christians, rather than taking advantage of their patience by arguing your points like a bull in a china shop. You tell your message very strongly, SG, and I admire that. But again I will say, every challenge you bring up strengthens my faith, because your claims are based upon inaccurate radiometric dating techniques, faulty theories from a man who jokingly referred to himself as the devil's little chaplain, and the false claims of a trio of men who thought Jesus came from Horus.
Most of all, I treat you with love and respect, and am critical in times where you are out of line and don't afford me the same respect. Sometimes I may come across as harsh. I apologize for that. Your hostility toward God cannot be veiled by intellectual upholding of natural selection. Sooner or later, even if it's at death, you will see God and have to account for why you didn't listen when Jesus was shared with you. I'd rather see you stop falling for intellectual pride and believe in the God you once studied. You argue to annoy, I urge you out of love for your well-being.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 20, 2007....

I largely agreed with you, that's why I haven't really participated in this leg nor backed SG on it. I was saying your original reason for discrediting it was silly to say the least.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
Thank you for clarifying, Renaud. I think the discrepancy is that Horus was worshiped as mythology, but Jesus is worshiped as truth. Comparing one to the other is ludicrous in itself, but for the sake of discussion I continue.
You brought up a really good point about Jesus. He wasn't a hell-raiser, so the Roman empire didn't think much of Him. However, he is the center of the world's largest world religion - Christianity - while the Roman Empire bit the dust.
I believe that in order to be that big of a deal, one must have done extraordinary things that others actually witnessed. We measure years by Christ's birth. God created the 7 day week that we still adhere to (Russian and French revolutions once tried to change this, but failed). There is evidence of the Genesis Flood all over the Earth (sedimentary rock that was washed over and hardened covers many of the continents). Many western names (like Michael, john, etc.) reference God directly. Yet we still wonder if it all happened.
If someone believes it did, they have access to a God that can do anything for them, through them. If someone denies it, that's their right because God gave us free will, but they are worse off for ignoring the God that created them in the first place.
Thanks for making clear your point, Renaud. I think it was the original wording that threw me off. It still seems odd that one fairy tale/story can refute another if both aren't true. But I find that Jesus is true. In effect, the gospel is the greatest myth of all time, BECAUSE it's actually true. It doesn't matter if other gods were worshiped as saviors before Jesus, because He actually IS the savior of the world.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 20, 2007....
Well that's cool, Renaud, but the original idea wasn't as silly as you think. In your shoes, comparing Horus to Jesus is like someone saying that "because Gepetto's birthdate is the same as your father's, that means your father plagiarized Pinocchio." Sounds silly in a different way, to me, because using something untrue to credit or discredit something true is a futile thing.
StupidGenius said on Aug 20, 2007....

You say it is true like you know it to be fact lidstrom, you dont know it to be true you simply believe it to be true there is a difference.

My whole point about horus (which I fear has been miscontrued) is that your basis for believing jesus is a true story has many problems. The theroy that Jesus existed at all is based on little fact if any.

I simply used a story (which I dont believe to be atrue story) to show that your belief has a cloud of doubt over it that should at least mean that you consider the possibility that is is wrong.

If I believe that no god exists and I constantly get people telling me it is true and they can show me evidence that it is true then I am likely to change my mind on the subject because I am a big boy and can admit when Im wrong. I am only asking you to consider that you are wrong and then go and research it for yourself.

Surely a subject so close to your heart should be priority number one and you should make sure that the foundation you build your existance on is a sound one. Not checking on its accuracy is ignorant.

SG
truthsayer said on Aug 20, 2007....

Since you have been streaking my posts StupidG, did you even take the time to read what Lidstrom so sweetly and professionally posted for you? He is a gem, isn't he?

I really appreciate your taking the time to post that Lidstrom. I haven't been on here much because of some physical challenges, then when I am, I have to wonder if it is all worth it.

I got mad and went on my first rant on soulcast. You may not want to be "seen" with me anymore ; )

Gotta go fellas, but I am asking you to post on the blog I put up a few minutes ago. Please share your thoughts with me. It seems like things have gotten so weird for me in here lately. I just don't know anymore.

Blessings,

Truthsayer
SeanRenaud said on Aug 20, 2007....

Some how I can't see you getting enough of that self-righteous rage to go on a rant but I'll check it out. :-P
truthsayer said on Aug 20, 2007....

Oh, you're probably right Sean. I edited the heck out of it. I probably killed it for my snarky friends and still, made it too specific for my Christian friends. Whatever. The pain was lessened after I wrote it though. That is almost scary. I think I had better give that some thought. Few people have ever seen me really angry, but those who have, say that it is really scary. Who knows, maybe I hold it in too much, and only hurt myself by doing so. Neither way is particularly Christ-like.

Thanks for looking anyway. I didn't post back on any of my blogs or anything. I may nuke them and get busy with what I am supposed to be writing...to get published.

Later,

Truth
RollingC said on Aug 21, 2007....
Hey Truth....don't nuke any of your posts will ya please? And everyone is allowed...even a Christian.... to get mad and rant. Look at what our Lord did on the temple with the money tenders. Even He got mad and put a whooping on their behinds to get them out of there.
Certain people thrive on arguments and starting conflicts here as that's what starts the numerous comments that they thrive on and they measure their popularity by what large numbers of comments that they got. Little do they realize that the only way they get that is by starting a post that starts an argument. Is that really the way to get popular?
I certainly come here for personal pleasure and although it would be nice to have everyone read my humble posts I don't come here just for that and I don't worry if no one reads them as I've found real decent people here that have tons of writing talent (more than I for sure) and I'm actually too busy reading and enjoying their writing.
So keep doing what you been doing ok?
♥
RC
SeanRenaud said on Aug 21, 2007....
I think that was translated in normalish by saying that ranting is healthy. I could have told you that.
StupidGenius said on Aug 21, 2007....

Is someone getting fed up of being questioned about his beliefs? Dont realy understand why. If you post it then expect replies or comments to that post. If you state something as if you know it to be true then expect to be challenged. Simple as that.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 21, 2007....
I'm not gonna say this 18 times on every post that you mean and Truth are on, but seriously SG, keeping the claws in on occasion has its merits.
StupidGenius said on Aug 21, 2007....

I dont agree sean, religion should be challenged whenever people claim it to be true, facutal of have any type of moral high ground because that is simply ignorance at its most damaging. Religion has seeped into every part of our society and it slowly rips the guts out of our existance, creating war and segregation. (granted it is not solely responsible but is a large contributory factor)

I will not show the subject anymore respect than I would someones choice of car, place to live. It is not a protected subject and it has been treated as such for far to long.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Sep 03, 2007....
people claim it to be true, facutal of have any type of moral high ground because that is simply ignorance at its most damaging. Religion has seeped into every part of our society and it slowly rips the guts out of our existance, creating war and segregation. (granted it is not solely responsible but is a large contributory factor)
I will not show the subject anymore respect than I would someones choice of car, place to live. It is not a protected subject and it has been treated as such for far to long.

SG

I apologize if you thought that my points was that religion should be a protected subject. It isn't, not on my blogs I spend a fair amount of time ripping into religious people, even my good friend Truth here.

I agree with you that religion has infected our society and what's worse is that we finally have examples in Europe to show that societies can progress towards secularism and that the more religious your country is the worse off it is. Any debate to the contrary is simply argumentive rhetoric. It's like saying that cigarettes don't cause cancer. It simply isn't supported by the facts any longer.

I'm not sure your examples are particularly good though. I would more compare religion to political party or beliefs which should likewise be challenged. If I can't convince you to vote the way that I am you might be that 1 more vote that puts Bush into office and with the last two elections being so terribly close it shows the importance of debate and convincing people because it's not always a landslide where you can stay home and your will still be done.

thenack said on Sep 04, 2007....

I haven't read the whole thing, but I agree with your initial statement. Do you have any idea what the consequences of this stament are to you?

At least I'm white, so I have evolved much further than you.....
thenack said on Sep 04, 2007....

Oh for people who don't know, this argument, along with a similar one on the Bible being the Word of God, was initially proposed by C.S. Lewis, the author of the cronicles of Narnia. I believe that it is very difficult to find a problem with the logic of Lewis.

There is a very good book that sum-up, analise and compare thephilosophies and livews of CS Lewis ad Sigmund Frued. From the book it is clear that Frued was hipocrital and confused, Lewis was the same, untill he submittted to the ultimate truth. Then he became so logicall it hurts. Read the post and the book if you dare put your faith at risk

http://www.boundless.org/2001/departments/pages/a0000588.html
StupidGenius said on Sep 16, 2007....

What the hell are you going on about nack?

I like your similie sean, religions are very similar to political parties ecept that as yet they do not control policy, they most definatly influence it but as yet dont control. They will, very soon.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Sep 16, 2007....

If you don't think the Christian Right has a lot of control over policy then you're day dreaming. Now this doesn't mean much good or bad its simply a fact that most opponents of stem cell research, cloning, and sexual education (in various ways) are Christian. It's quite possible that cloning is something we really shouldn't do but really 1 out of three isn't great odds. They are the ones who are against abortion, against gay marriage and recently built a museum to creationism. Tell me again how they lack political control?

Hell you damn near can't be elected in this country if you're not Christian. Even psuedochristians (Catholics) have a difficult time getting past our level of religious beliefs.
thenack said on Sep 17, 2007....

Stupid, I was talking about the original point Seean made, which was first published by CS Lewis.
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
I don't agree with Christianity being made a political agenda in America, but leaders who recognize God's authority will lead this country better than those who don't.
Even many of the Founding Fathers upheld this when establishing our nation. Ronald Reagan once said that this nation is in trouble when we stop realizing the importance of God.
Without God, what do we draw our attention to? Where do we derive morality? We usually get drawn to the lowest common denominator when it comes to fame and fortune - we have celebrity scandals everywhere in mainstream media, not even just in tabloids. We give the time of day to things that are shockingly raunchy and lewd, or scandalous - and negative. Why else does it seem that we can't get rid of stories about Paris, Britney, or Lindsay?
And what about morality? Apart from an established source, our morality is relative depending upon who you talk to. If you murder someone and get life in prison, while you see another go free for the same offense, it wouldn't sit that well with you. But if the judge that let them walk was operating by a different morality and ended up acquitting the guilty, then relative morality screwed you over. That's one rudimentary example of how it is better to have a universal morality.
Why won't it ever seem to fix problems? Because the human race, as a whole, isn't that noble or virtuous. God's law gives us a standard to live by, but our flaws as a human race make us fall short. That's why Jesus came to this Earth to set us free from our own faults, our own lack of morals, our own arrogance for "knowing it all", and give us a way out for the harm we do to others. We show up, we screw up, and Jesus fixes what's broken. There's nothing more practical than fixing a good thing that's broken.
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

"I don't agree with Christianity being made a political agenda in America, but leaders who recognize God's authority will lead this country better than those who don't."

Get real Lidstrom, I try very hard to be nice but then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like God this and that!

Where do you get your facts from? the answer is no where. You have no sensible reason for making a statement like that and the most damaging thing about your opinion is that it is actualy shared with other people. You have no right to claim that people who believe in god live better lives, work harder, are nicer people. Infact because the majority of the world believes in a religion of some sort and the world is in a pretty crap state, it would be very easy for me to state the obviouse and claim that religion is in fact the root of all evil.

In the majority, people who believe in god feel that they have some kind of moral high ground when in fact the high ground they hold is just as non existant as the god they build their lives around.

In future when you make a statement like that give evidence to support such a claim. You dont have any evidence so your point is less than worthless.

SG
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

By the way, if we are going to go into "Gods Law" then maybe I should start quoting parts of the bible that show your god to be a murderous, jelouse, homophobic, racist hell bent on genocide?

SG
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
"I don't agree with Christianity being made a political agenda in America, but leaders who recognize God's authority will lead this country better than those who don't."

Bush ruined any chance I had at believing this.
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

Bush is retard... the end.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
Wow ok, maybe I should have realized you couldn't take being poked fun at. I genuinely apologize for that, dude.
I gave you evidence on why Godly wisdom seems foolish to people who only value wisdom they learn from other people. The evidence came from the Bible. You can't say I have no evidence; I do, you just don't value it.
And because you don't value it, that's evidence that you've learned enough to decide the Bible isn't for you. I think you've thought it through on some level and I respect that.
I gotta say though man, if you see God as murderous, jealous, homophobic racist, then I do question how well you do understand the Bible. You don't see people getting struck down by thunder when using God or Jesus' name in vain, do you? Flat out, you're wrong about most of your claims. I said most, because God IS a jealous God. He wants our attention, and as our Creator He has that right. I think when we're parents we'll understand better what it's like if our children seem to value everything BUT us. It's the same with us and God, our Father.
God didn't create us to be homosexual. That doesn't make Him homophobic; it makes us sinful.
God has put to death many people, but what you miss is that those people knew the consequences of worshiping false idols and denying God, and they did it anyway. They were punished because they committed a crime. You're quick to decry political figures who somehow escape justice, yet overlook wicked people in the Bible who caused even greater offenses. I assure you, God did not needlessly destroy lives. He is not bent on genocide; even the Flood was a product of our wickedness, but don't miss the fact that Noah and his family survived; if God did not spare them for their righteousness, you wouldn't be here to claim God doesn't exist in the first place.

And further, if God sent His Son, Jesus, into the world for the salvation of all people, how does that make Him racist? If our own unbelief is the only thing separating us from knowing God, how is that God's fault?
You're smarter than this, SG, to make such claims about something you obviously don't live by. Again, I respect your decision, but that doesn't give you free reign to spit venom at something you understand little.
SeanRenaud said on Sep 17, 2007....
Honestly it's never been proven. Atheists simply don't get into office because Christianity is so strong in this nation, not the oval office at any rate. It is damned hard to be other than Christian and get elected and this extends even to Catholics who to non Christians non Catholics might as well be Christians.
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
Bush kind of reminds me of the kid in high school who got popular for one day and then tripped on his shoes in the hallway the next day after. Everyone's eager to make him out to be a dork, and look down on anyone who seeks to help him.
Do I believe Bush misguided this war? Yes, I do. Do I believe he went to war foolishly? No - but many people who supported him then, hate him now. That makes all such people hypocrites - support a war with your president, but shove all the blame on him when it goes down.
I think it's dangerous to "blame" Christianity for putting and keeping Bush in power. What do we want more, a standup guy who makes some bad decisions, or a mild-mannered dude who won't make decisions at all? We elected him as a nation, and we should actually practice some loyalty and work with him rather than call for his head. Politics piss people off but little get done.
Besides, if you dismiss Christianity based on someone else, that doesn't let you off the hook. You're responsible for your own life and what you believe. If you look God in the face and blame George Bush for why you were turned off to following Christ, it won't hold any water. It's like falling off your bike and blaming Schwinn.
What all that goes to say is this: we demonstrate the willful disrespect for others (in this case, Bush) that fuels the things that make this world less than beautiful.
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
@lid
you're arguing against something other than what I said. Bush isn't a stand up guy that made some bad decisions. I can show you countless instances of deceit on his part, but let's look at one issue which I think highlights the Christian angle well.

Bush ordered the use of torture and he refused to talk about it. Is that a stand up guy? You said that will lead beater than a non christian, I ask you if Bush holds up to that claim!

Seriously though, most of your points are aimed at a strawman so I won't reply to them.
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
@lid
another question for you. Are you familiar with Just War Doctrine? It is based on Christian philosophy and outlines when war is justifiable. Are Bushes actions in line with this Christian doctrine?
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

Bush also claims that god told him to go to war? does that support my point that god is warmongering?? lol im not sure.

Bloc has clearly done his research and has an understanding of relaity. When you control a country, infact the most powerfull country in the world then going to war on a lie is not just a little mistake. the war was wrong, we are all paying for our governments incesant need to control the world and get involved in other peoples business.

We are now suffering the "blow back"

Lidstrom do I need to quote the parts of the bible that illustrate my point? The whole basis of your argument boils down to blind faith. Blind faith is a very shaky foundation on which to build a point of view. I would suggest research and evidence as a more stable foundation.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
Yes SG, quote the verses you speak of.
bloc: we seem to know an awful lot about a man we haven't met. I'm sure there's enough reason to hate the guy based on his track record. I'm not defending him as a fellow Christian, or just because he's president. I will refrain further from speaking of politics because 1) it doesn't matter that much to me, and 2) it makes ordinary people prideful, arrogant, and spiteful far too often. If I seem to be talking to a strawman, you're largely right - it's not always about what you say.
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
I'm just point out that it's dangerous to assume someone is going to be a good leader because they say their a Christian. Isn't that part of what the idea of the antichrist is supposed to teach?
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

This is an example, why would god be vengfull and have a burning fury if he was so advanced and able to create humanity in the first place. He could just simply remove our ability to not believe in him and then we would all think alike. This is just one example of the kind of rubbish that exists in the bible.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
It's not rubbish just because you refuse to understand it :) I didn't like advanced algebra in school, but I was still responsible for a bad grade in it.

"The Lord is slow to get angry."

"The Lord is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge."

^ Did you miss these somehow?

"He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies." - opposing God is a dumb idea.

"His power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished." - so anyone who's ever done you or others wrong, even George Bush, will have to answer to God. That's a comforting thought because no one will escape true justice, even if they have great power or avoid jailtime.

SG, please listen well to the content description of the book of Nahum as explained in the New Living Translation, the same translation you quoted Nahum from:

"Be warned - God will indeed repay those who have inflicted terrible suffering on others. This was the message Nahum spoke against Ninevah, the capital of Assyria. In 722 B.C. the Assyrians had destroyed Samaria, the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, and exiled its inhabitants to distance lands throughout the empire. The were ruthlessly violent to their enemies and showed no mercy to them. They were guilty of arrogance, cruelty, idolatry, murder, lies, treachery, superstition, and oppression. For this wickedness, the book of Nahum rails against the people of Ninevah and pronounces God's judgment upon them."

Clearly, the punishment fit the crime. It's as simple as that.

One thing atheists or critics or Christianity must never do is to blame God for all the wrongdoing, when all the "evidence" of the wrongdoing was actually punishment for what MANKIND did. It's easy to point the finger at God because it lets us off the hook. "Blame the all-powerful guy! Oh yeah, and let's disprove Him too." It's just not that easy. The Bible says that whoever spares the rod, hates their son. It means that anyone who does not discipline their children is not instructing them well, and is setting themselves up for those children to fail. Remember, God's wrath is terrible to behold, but not many atheists will point to God's miraculous acts, just as powerful, to PRESERVE mankind. Leading the Israelites out of Egypt and through the parted Red Sea. Keeping Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from execution by lions or flames, respectively. Keeping David alive from a murderous Saul. Sparing Noah's life from global destruction of a wicked world. Blessing Job with abundant loved ones and wealth, and doubling it after Job proved faithful, letting Adam and Eve live even after introducing sin into the whole world, letting Cain live even after Cain murdered his brother, Abel, blessing Abraham as the father of all nations today through his children, despite his old age...sending prophet after prophet to speak to the people, warning them of what would happen if they disobeyed...and then, sending Jesus into the world to make all things new. This is the tip of the iceberg of how God loves and works in imperfect people to bless the world. It is not rubbish - it's only rubbish to people who don't get it. All it takes is to read the Bible, and you will get it.
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

Ok so god is good yet he murders, he is goot yet he kills his enemies. He is good but he is jelouse and fill with wrath. That is a contradiction in terms.

At the end of the day if he is so powerfull then stop people from murdering one another and stop all the other religions.

Instead he gives us free will, we choose to worship another god, he says we should be killed. We choose to murder, he says we should die. Our kids dont respect us, he says they should be killed. What kind of almighty powerfull god has to resort to killing the things he created when they act upon their free will. A free will that he gave us??

You need to read the text not me, you are finding answers that are not their. Look more deeply and reason the statements made in its pages.

SG
truthsayer said on Sep 17, 2007....

Hi guys. I can't stay long. I just wanted to "wave" and say "hey". God is strong and mighty so save and to correct. Why would we be so reticent to be corrected by One who is perfect; unless we think ourselves to be perfect like Him, or worse...better than Him?

Take care,

Truth
SeanRenaud said on Sep 17, 2007....

Wow, still going.

That said I guess I have to play mediator for a minute here.

@bloc: Please link to the just war since I'm unfamilar with that term.

@SG: A lot of what your doing here is waving your arms and screaming. Yes God is good when he kills his enemies despite killing being bad. Killing=bad, killing nazi's=good. It's not really a complicated concept at all and its certainly a silly spot to focus your argument against.

@Lid: The punishment fits the crime and to that end you quote the OT. I'm only gracing this with a response to be polite. I think I'll sum it up with the ad hominim Hitler & Dahmer=Good, Ghandi=Bad. I can back that statement (theoritically since nobody here can confirm or deny what any of those men said on their death beds) with scripture if you like but I don't feel I need to bother explaining who goes to heaven and who goes to hell to you.

@Truth: Seriously you never have time for us any more. I say this in jest but did somebody fucking die or something? You never show up to grace us with your presence, you just make sure we know you didn't die or anything like that.

Also you could wonder if we aren't like him, not perfect but honestly there is little evidence Biblical or otherwise that he is perfect. Would that be so horrible?
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
Just War Doctrine
truthsayer said on Sep 17, 2007....

Hi Sean. No, nobody died. Although I have been quite ill for over a week now.

I am sorry Sean. I don't mean to cause any worry or fall asleep on my watch. I have just had a lot of things going on that are hard to talk about or explain.

I'm sure you remember that I wasn't sure if I should stay on soulcast, or if I just needed a break. Then there were so many wonderful comments and notes...so, I decided to stay and do better.

Then a whole mess of computer problems provided the leave of absence I probably needed. I started writing again...on my lap top...not on the internet. It is a loooong story friend. And one that the details, most likely, only matter to me.

I was completely off the internet for the better part of two weeks. I am attempting to resurface now...but I doubt that I will be able to catch up on much. I'll just have to jump in here and there for a while. I am still not out of the woods yet healthwise either. I am feeling better though.

Thanks for asking friend.

I do have a question for you, if you will indulge me. Can you imagine "Perfection"? Even if it is just your own personal attempt at imagining perfection, you know? I ask because we use the word all the time, yet hardly think of what it really means, or could mean to us. I often meditate upon things that I don't understand, but want to. I don't meditate like they do in eastern meditation...my meditations are for penetration, understanding.

I was wondering if you have ever tried it. It sounds strange, but try it sometime. There is evidence Sean, but that isn't really the most fascinating thing about our existance...do you think?

Our minds are so beautifully complex. We really know so little...and there is so much to seek out. Do an Einstein Sean. Imagine Perfection. Meditate on it...let your mind fly with it. Mull it over. It is quite a fruitful way to spend an hour; or ten minutes if you can't sit still for that long ; ) You'll learn a lot. Then, look into the things that you see in your mind's eye. Tell me what you find. I mean, what if Perfection does exist, and we just forget to seek?

Your friend,

Truthsayer : )
truthsayer said on Sep 17, 2007....

Hi bloc and Lidstrom et. al.

: )
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
hi truthsayer :)

Can perfection exist without the negatives? Can goodness exist without the foil of badness?
truthsayer said on Sep 17, 2007....

Hi bloc.

I was just re-reading Genesis 3 yesterday. I was reading about Adam and Eve's sin, and how easily they (we) are manipulated by the serpent.

I love re-reading the Bible because although I these things, I can always find some new revelation when I read it again and again. It is so rich.

Anyway, in the Garden of Eden, as you know, there were two trees "in the midst" of the garden. There is the Tree of Life (Jesus Christ) and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I'll bet you can guess who the second tree represents, since he introduced Adam and Eve to the "doubt" of God.

So, at least at that time, there were both. But we were supposed to eat from One and not the other. Your question is a big question friend...as I am sure you know ; )

Why don't you tell me what you think.

Do you think that there can be perfection and imperfection? Or must all things be perfect at all times? Would evil have to be removed from us, in order for us to stay away from it? Or would we learn more by learning self control and self discipline?

Nice to visit with you again bloc.

Truth : )
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
I don't have any answers to these questions, only more questions :)
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
Hey bloc, sorry if anything I said sounded harsh earlier. I agree about what you said, that just because a leader claims to be Christian, doesn't make them the best leader for president, or even your local boy scout troop.
Truth, it's wonderful to see you here :) If you need Christian counsel on what's been going on, you know how to reach me. If it's hard to talk about, don't feel pressure to explain yourself or anything like that - but avoid isolating yourself, too, in the midst of trials.
Bloc - I think sin in the world, in every human being, separates us from perfection. It even distorts what we think is perfect. We just can't fully grasp what, if any, perfection exists. But the majority of the world IS religious. That might mean that there is spiritual truth out there, something that heals our soul better than modern medicine or psychological theory. I think God is at the root of that search for truth.
If God created us all, He, as the creator and author, has the authority to create, remake, or destroy what He has made, just like a potter breaks a cracked pot and remakes it into something better. We all believe different things, but I insist that it's harmful to assume that perfection doesn't exist, or that nothing exists outside of what we see. We'll never know how God took care of us in our lives until we reach the end, and He gives us an account of our lives. He decides whether what we built and lived by in life stands up to the test of fire, or if our life's work will be worthless and destroyed. God, being perfect, can't be reached by our efforts (i.e., we've never found Heaven), but God Himself can come to us - and He did. He was Jesus Christ. His life and what He taught is all in the Bible so it isn't a mystery. Many people don't believe in the Bible's words because, well, it's hard to live out. And yes, it is. Would the average person want to suffer and die, possibly, for believing in an unseen savior? But while we can't go back in time and see if Jesus really existed, we can see evidence and proof in the Bible. It is our ultimate link to perfection. Yes, an old book. But an old book that's remained virtually unchanged. Even secular scholars over history have recognized the Bible's value to our morality and spiritual capacity as a human race. It is arguably the most important document in human history to the known world, but to the believer there's no question; it is what it claims to be, and God is who He says He is. :)
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
"That might mean that there is spiritual truth out there, something that heals our soul better than modern medicine or psychological theory. I think God is at the root of that search for truth."

It might also mean that our brains are simply wired to long for such a thing. Or God may be very different than the anthropomorphic God of Christianity ;) I lean towards the latter.
SeanRenaud said on Sep 17, 2007....

I'm exaggerating a little Truth, I'm sorry you've been ill. I remember you saying you needed a break. I thought after Soulcast damn near uniformly bowed down to worship you like a false idol you decided to stick around. I mean it would suck if we all went to hell cus we were worshiping Truthsayer instead of the Truth :-P

Anyway I'll give a proper response later I'm about to drive home and don't have time atm.

Also thank you for the response bloc.
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
Yo bloc! I definitely think our brains are wired to long for truth. It is because God made us that way! I have to say, your comment about anthropomorphism is just bizarre. We're made in God's image as a gift, and besides, you've never seen God, and neither have I, so who are we to doubt the God of Christianity, much less his appearance? Do you want God to be a multitentacled mass, because you like sea creatures? :)
bloc said on Sep 17, 2007....
" Yo bloc! I definitely think our brains are wired to long for truth. It is because God made us that way!"

That's a dangerous argument, our brains long for many things you wouldn't consider wholesome or truth ;)

"you've never seen God, and neither have I, so who are we to doubt the God of Christianity, much less his appearance?"

This can be said of any religion.

"Do you want God to be a multitentacled mass, because you like sea creatures? :)"

Maybe God isn't what we think of as a "thing", be it humanlike or octupi ;)
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
You're really perceptive, bloc. You're right - our minds and hearts come up with some very UNwholesome things. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that every human being has a God-shaped hole that can only be filled by Him. In essence, we're all made to worship God. It's our sinfulness that comes up with unwholesome things, and lies, that grow within and come forth from our lips and in our actions.
As for God's appearance, my point was, we really can't, even in jest, speak anything critical of God's appearance - or any other deity, for that matter. I know I'm made in God's image because the Bible explains it. I know there's some funky looking angels with eyes and wings all over the place, but as a human, I am part of the pinnacle of Creation, modeled after God. No tentacles there!
What I must stress is that the Bible makes the presence of God clear - it doesn't describe Him head to toe, but we know that Jesus walked this Earth. It wasn't so much what He looked like, but all about what He did. What do you think about those thoughts, bro?
StupidGenius said on Sep 18, 2007....

"you've never seen God, and neither have I, so who are we to doubt the God of Christianity, much less his appearance?"

My point exactly Lid, if I wrote a book about a tin of beans and included in that book how amazing the tin was and then told you that it will guide, heal and save all the people that believe in it would you think it was real if I then told you that the tin of beans was invisible and that no one had ever seen it.

You know you havnt seen god, you know you dont even know what he looks like etc but you still cling to the belief that he exists in some form, As I have said before, If I made the above statement to a group of people they would think im crazy but if over time people came to believe me then I would be a part of a group that thought that people who didnt believe in the beans were crazy.

If you apply logic to religion then Religion is simply a logical impossibility. Thats why religious people should not try to debate religion from a logical perspective.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 18, 2007....
A tin of beans doesn't have the impact Jesus has on the world. And it is possible to debate Christianity from a logical perspective - it just seems harder to the other side of the debate if they're biased against it.
bloc said on Sep 18, 2007....
@lid
My thoughts: My brain won't let me believe in an anthropomorphic God.
truthsayerlord said on Sep 18, 2007....
People were generally more naive when the "idea" of god became popular.
if you went back in time you could probably convince them to worship a can of beans.
truthsayerlord said on Sep 18, 2007....
are they heinz backed beans?
lidstrom82 said on Sep 18, 2007....
That's a really honest, interesting thought, bloc. Most of us are aware of the creation account in Genesis where it says we were made in God's image. But the Bible also goes to great lengths to say that we cannot fathom the thoughts, power, or appearance of God. No mortal can look on Him and live - that's why Moses spoke to a burning bush, the Israelites saw a cloud follow them constantly, shading them from the sun in the wilderness and protecting them at night. To have God show up would blow our minds, and we'd fall dead. Notice God doesn't do that, even to people He hates the most. Show up unexpectedly and yell, "Boo! Oh hey, you're dead. Too bad."
So while I can grasp that we were made in God's image, I also know his physical presence is too great for anyone on Earth to behold. Believers in Heaven won't have sin, so they can look upon God and commune with Him. Here on earth, sin is rampant - and that makes it hard for a perfect, sinless being to appear on earth without having everyone who see them fall dead.
Except if that being was born of a human mother, as a man. That is what Jesus Christ did. His power was obvious and evident to all around Him, but as a man we could look upon Him without fear of His presence making us blow our circuits.
truthsayerlord said on Sep 18, 2007....
i thought god could do anything, why doesn't he just do something about u blowing our minds? Or do you believe god has limits to his power?
bloc said on Sep 18, 2007....
@lid
do you ever ponder over the size of the universe. It would seem odd for me to think that God create this giant universe, where the earth is a mere speck, and left it all empty of life except that little spec.
bloc said on Sep 18, 2007....
@lid
Check this out when you get time.
lidstrom82 said on Sep 18, 2007....
Hey, I just caught a typo in my last post! The sentence, "Notice God doesn't do that, even to people He hates the most." I meant to say "even the people that hate Him the most." That's a very important difference. My bad if there was confusion. God has chosen to destroy wicked lives before, but He doesn't randomly appear to scare someone to death (literally), and I'd imagine since He created all of us, it hurts Him to punish even one life, even if that person hates God massively.

Hey bloc, thanks for the link. I just finished watching it. It was very insightful, and I've seen the video and the pic of the pale blue dot in church services, actually. The one thing I didn't agree with is when the narrator was talking about there being little chance of outside help reaching our planet; that we're alone. I think that's an assumption and inference, but a common one. We're not alone, and by that I don't mean aliens, I mean God.

God could very well be bigger than any words could contain, even - undescribable. The Bible is God's Word to us, and it explains that of everything in all created existence, we are the masterpieces of God's work. Human beings. To someone who doesn't understand who God is and why He loves us so much, it can sound arrogant for someone to say, "God loves me personally, and has a plan for my life," when in fact we're one life of billions on one planet of many, in the middle of tons of stars and galaxies and the voluminousness of space. But it's not arrogant if God Himself tells us that we are the apple of His eye.

Why would an all-powerful, all-creating God care so much about tiny specks on a pale blue dot that walk around, start wars, lie, cheat, steal, or even just act crummy sometimes? Because we are in His image - that's a clue to our importance. Mankind can do amazing things, but we have to remember why we're here in the first place - to love God. We're not puppets with strings - we have free will. But we also have sin and crappiness, and we need God to bail us out in big ways from time to time, and in little ways every single day. It's not weak to admit your own shortcomings when the creator of the universe is working in your heart, mind, and soul to spread His love to other people.

truthsayerlord, I think you're fun. To answer your question, God can more than handle showing up to us, it's that we can't. When we needed God to show up, He has, but in ways that we can witness (i.e. the cloud, the burning bush, as a man in Jesus Christ). It's not His limits, it's ours. I equate it to trying to fit a tank (God) and a mazda (us) in a one car garage (earth). The tank can handle it, but the mazda will fare far poorly. Outside of Jesus, God can't be contained. If God has a limit, it's that He can't sin. God is love, and he is perfect. We are not. Putting the fullness of both together has "nitro" and "glycerin" written all over it, because we're imperfect. That's why Jesus Christ came to us as a man, lived out God's will perfectly, and with the power of God defeated death on the Cross. He died in our place, to open a can of whupass on satan and give us a clear path to a God we cannot see (and cannot survive if we did). For those who acknowledge and respect Him, God uses His power to better this world. He works in a meek young man to stop his car and give food to a homeless guy. He moves people to give money to a person in need to funding to go to Russia and share Jesus' love with a nation still scarred by the oppression of th Soviet regime. He gives courage to those who reach remote villages in Asia, despite government corruption or prohibition of practicing open religion. God's Word itself says such people are rewarded for their faithfulness - God's power is open to us when we open up to Him, and that power that created all we see gives us love, a purpose, and authority over anyone or anything that would persecute us wrongly.

It's actually a pretty good deal :)
truthsayer said on Sep 18, 2007....

Okay Sean, LOL! I did have every intention of "staying". I was kind of blown away, but in a good way. I really had no idea that most of those people even read me, because many read me without subscribing to me. As long as there are true truth seekers though (and I mean TRUTH, not the truthsayer ; ) there will be Nicodemuses. All I care about is being true to my Lord and true to the Word.

And I'll look forward to your response whenever you have the time. If nothing else, all this illness (almost two weeks, actually) and the computer networking things and internet provider stuff has made me even more patient ; )

I almost didn't come back though, after all of that. So, thanks for noticing me again : )

Just one humble Truthsayer.

: )
truthsayer said on Sep 18, 2007....

Hey bloc : )

I know your comments were addressed to Lidstrom, and I don't want to butt in on a great discussion. But I was wondering, if you don't mind...I hope you will indulge me yet again.

anthropomorphism:

n. the attributing of human shape or characteristics to a god, animal, or inanimate thing.

That term applies to other things as well. And most appropriately. I am not certain that you can use this as an argument with Christians however. What I mean to say is that we might be the only ones that are not attributing a human shape or characteristics to God...most often in fact, we find that this anthropomorphic principle is the reason many refuse to believe. They remember what other Christians have done to them, or that they have witnessed other Christians doing to someone else....or like you said about Bush: Then, they attribute that person's personality and perceived character to God.

As Bible-believing-Christians, we certainly don't attribute human shape or characteristics to animals (not that there may not be some errant professing Christians that have animistic tendancies ; ), and we are strictly forbidden to attribute human shape or characteristics to inanimate objects. Apart from some died in the wool idolators masquerading as Christians in the pews : )

What we are supposed to do, in fact, our entire goal should be to be transformed into HIS character and likeness...not transform Him, into our image. But that brings us back to the Bible, doesn't it? And the only way you, my friend, or anyone can refute what I have been taught by God, is to attempt to invalidate me or my Bible. So, don't worry bloc, we don't really have to discuss this at length.

I just took the time to read all that you said and all that Lidstrom said, and it was pertinent to something I had been wanting to say for a long time. And you are the one I wanted to ask.

I have no anger or even angst about it. I am just glad to see that you are still being so thoughtful. It is something I have missed from soulcast. I get so tired of politics and the worldly systems we are forced to live in.

Later man...and it is good to be back!

Truthsayer
truthsayer said on Sep 18, 2007....

Hey Lidstrom : )

Nice debate, discussion, argument, etc. I think I mentioned my hermit tendancies more than once. It is a weakness of mine. If I had been able to get online consistently, I might have pm'd you about it. I still would like to discuss part of it with you, if you don't mind. I will send you a message soon. I hadn't thought to burden you with it, or even ask for your Christian guidance...but now that you have offered, I think I will.

Thank you for offering. I tend to keep things to myself and that isn't noble...it is limiting behavior actually. A form of vanity. Sorry. I welcome your input, "one to another".

Blessings friend,

Truthsayer : )
thenack said on Sep 19, 2007....

SG, buting in with a late tackle, you said you wold raise your child to make his own choises. Churchcamps according to you should be avoided because they indoctrinate people. I chalenge you to also free him from the religion of evolution. I have proven time and time again on this site that evolution (goo to you) is a religion as its basic premises are ASSUMED, so its based on belief. So if you protect him from evolutionary bias aslo, that would only be fair.

Or you can try to argue with me that evolution is a science (without just stating it, do some actual thinking for a change)
bloc said on Sep 19, 2007....
what part of evolution is assumed? How is it different from the assumptions of geometry? Doesn't everything start with some basic assumptions?
lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2007....
I think thenack is more qualified to explain that one, bloc, but my initial thoughts are that for some things, there's an exception to every rule (this was taught to me in mathematics in school). For other things, particularly matters of existence, dating, and creation, faulty assumptions can lead to faulty evidence.
I'm still wrapping my head around this one, but I have heard from Creationist scientists that when one assumes that lifeforms were gradually formed (as opposed to Adam and Eve being fully formed by God), it can radically throw off our calculations of the origin of the Earth.
Think of it this way: when we see a complex lifeform, say, a human being, we look at its complexity and wonder how each part was formed. If we operate under the assumption that it takes millions of years for each component to develop, based on evidence we see from fossils and other things, then we're led to believe the Earth had to be around long enough for all that to happen. In other words, the assumption is that the more complex something is, the longer it had to be around to develop. Keep in mind, this would tend to rule out most calculated periods of time attributed to the Bible, based on geneologies of people in the Scriptures.
But if an all-powerful God created us thousands of years ago, fully formed and in His image, then we can be just as complex but much younger. Further, if God allowed His creation to adapt to changing climate/environmental conditions, then we can often mistake that for evolutionary progress.
It goes much deeper than that, but people more scientifically minded than I have concluded for themselves that evolution raises more questions than creation does. As I'm still learning about it all, I haven't had all my questions answered, but part of God's grace is that we don't all have to be wizards of science to love and serve Him with blessings in return.
bloc said on Sep 19, 2007....
"have concluded for themselves that evolution raises more questions than creation does."

Only because creationism refuses to ask them.

"Further, if God allowed His creation to adapt to changing climate/environmental conditions, then we can often mistake that for evolutionary progress."

How would that be a mistake? Changing to adapt is evolution.

Do you and thenack believe that the Earth is only 6000 years old, or whatever age can be inferred from the bible?
lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2007....
I understand what you meant by claiming creationism doesn't ask as many questions, but bloc, any Christian worth the salt of the earth that they are would want to know where they came from and how they fit into God's creation, given what we know about the earth.
For many reasons, creation and evolution aren't compatible. Therefore, if God allows adaptability of species, it is not a "goo to you via the zoo", aka molecules-to-man evolution, because we are descended from Adam and Eve, who were created fully formed, not evolved over the course of many years.
If we take changing to adapt as evolution, then that part of evolution is true. However, many evolutionists I speak to, also prefer molecules-to-man evolution over Creation, and I don't agree with that as the true origin of human life, or any life for that matter.
One respected biblical scholar once tracked geneologies, particular the one of Jesus in the book of Matthew, back to Old Testament times up to Abraham. That effectively ties the beginning of the first millennium A.D. all the way back to the book of Genesis. Taking into account the lifespan of each figure in that geneology, the scholar surmised that Creation, including the earth and everything in it, has been around for around 6,000 years. I would not take that as absolute truth, but I believe it to be a more accurate estimate than carbon dating when it comes to the age of the Earth.
That is a stretch for many, because that's upholding the Word of God above the latest, most popular science of today. But science does have its limits, and there's a wealth of knowledge we haven't discovered yet. In terms of how long we've been around - even if it's only been 6-10 thousand years, the theory of evolution is relatively new. And depending upon who you ask, there are several critical assumptions about evolution and radiometric dating that have to be made in order to believe their methods are accurate. There exists the chance that if the assumptions are false, all calculated data from those assumptions are also off, like using an 87 degree angle to form a perfect square - it's impossible unless you begin with a 90 degree angle.
But remember, looking at God from a strictly scientific point of view won't give us much evidence. Our soul, our core being, needs to have a higher power to direct us through the less noble and more damaging habits of mankind. That takes seeking God, and in that, the Bible is the undisputed authority on how one relates to God.
Antimatter said on Sep 19, 2007....

“The Bible is the undisputed authority on how one relates to God.”
Undisputed? Really?
lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2007....
Disputed perhaps if one thinks of God as Allah, or Brahma, etc., but yes, as far as knowing God, the Bible has more to say on His character and person than any other document.
StupidGenius said on Sep 19, 2007....

Thenack -

Evolution is not a religion, you are not required to believe in it, scientists dont say you will go to a burning pit if you dont believe it. We dont say you will benefit from believing in it and we dont ask that you worship it like an idol. Instead you need only read the evidence and decide for yourself. Their is one very big difference between religion and evolution. Evolution relies on fact and religion relies on blind faith. Your argument is flawed because it is you that has done no research, if you had you wouldnt even compare the two. And you would actualy be able to state the problems with evolution.... which you cant.

Lid -

Im dissapointed with your comment on the authority of the bible. You have let yourself down again. That statement is too narrow minded for words and is simply a regurgitation of half witted preaching. Your bible originated from the jewish texts. the writers simply had to offer something different to readers or it would not have survived.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2007....
I think you should stick to your knowledge of evolution rather than your knowledge of the Bible, SG. :)
thenack said on Sep 20, 2007....

bloc, who are the ones not asking the questions. In a world were you are bombarded with apparently "smart" people always going on about million of years and evolution, it is Creationists who started asking the questions, and producing the facts. Perhaps you haven't asked any questions about evolution, or have realy given it some thought...?

SG, your answer is exactly what I expected, arrogant and agggresive, you did not read my post properly, as I stated that the basic premise on which evolution is based, requires blind faith. I have studied this topic in depth, both sides of the coin, as I was oncew a Christian who tried to also believe in evolution, because hey, the smart guys did. After much dedicated study I came started to realise what a giant big lie evolution is, and what a waste of good people.

If you want to know some of the facts, read my posts on them

If you want to deby Richar Dawkins, the main mac of evolution, you can, but he has admitted at several occasions that evolution is the religion of atheists. Go do some research yourself.

quotes from evolutionists

radiometric dating (you have to believe in millions of years, otherwise evolution is a joke)

The basic ASSUMPTION evolition is based on is that

1. the earth is millions upon gazilions of years old

2. many small changes can eventually produce big changes. This has never been observed and can not be observed. Not even the fossil record show the type of genetic progres required for reptiles to grow wings, and develope flight centers in their brains, at the same time, and learn to fly. In fact, science has shown that this is, with testable experiments, impossible. Evolutionists actually claim that the first eye developed when a blob creature had a "patch of sensitive skin which helped him to determine night and day, and this trait helped him survive so over billions of years his ancestors developed eyes" I mean come On. Its ridiculous. Just sit and think abot it for one moment

3. genetic information can not go uphill, two parent with blue eyes can not produce children with dark brown eyes without the help of the postman. evolution whould require this type of genetic change. But it does not exist

SG, why don't you try tell me how you disagree with 1-3 in a proper debate, not just a macho bravado of a post.
philipharris said on Dec 15, 2007....
Jesus was just like you and me-the only difference is that he was awakened to the truth of our being and tried to get us to understand that truth. Religion screwed up his message but if you dig deep-you will find that he said he was no better or worse than you or I-we are all one and that we all have the potential to be as gods.
lidstrom82 said on Dec 15, 2007....
philip...you might want to tweak your opinion a bit...you sound exactly like shiningstar.
philipharris said on Dec 15, 2007....
Then she is right , too! You might want to see what I wrote on truthsayers blog in response to this one-don't want to be repetitive.
SeanRenaud said on Dec 15, 2007....
See the loonies are spreading.
philipharris said on Dec 15, 2007....
The only loony I see around here is truthsayer-let's have a new crusade!!!!!! hey, anyone for a dip in Fire Lake?
truthsayer said on Dec 15, 2007....

HI GUYS! Hey, did you hear anyone say that shiningstar is a woman...I mean, besides "PhillipHarris"? shiningstar claims to be a published author as well.

Can't stay long folks...just wanted to give y'all a wave of my newest tinfoil hat and wish y'all a Merry CHRISTmas : )

Love, love, love...

Truthsayer
Antimatter said on Dec 16, 2007....

“and wish y'all a Merry CHRISTmas : )”

Happy holidays to you too! ;)
philipharris said on Dec 16, 2007....

Sorry about the gender thing-I know a shiningstar and she is a she!

I do not claim to be author, I am an author-I have posted this on the other discussion but for those here you can go to http://dickens111.tripod.com/theliteraryworksofphilipharris

All of my books on Amazon.com-four out and 2 more coming in January

WAKING GOD

JESUS TAUGHT IT, TOO: THE EARLY ROOTS OF THE LAW OF ATTRACTION

A MAINE CHRISTMAS CAROL

RAPING LOUISIANA: A DIARY OF DECEIT

IN JANUARY, MESSGES: AN ERA OF TRANSFORMATIO, Books I and II

A sincere Merry Christmas to you all!
truthsayer said on Dec 16, 2007....

How's that new baby Antimatter? Didn't you just become a new daddy?

My goodness philipharris, you are prolific. Who is your publisher? I think shiningstar self publishes, doesn't she? Merry Christmas to you too : ) I am going to read your comment on my blog this morning while I eat my brunch. I do hope you were kind and thoughtful. Honest and direct as well. I count it all good.

Sean!!! No Christmas present for me? I have one for you. You will find, in your stocking, on Christmas morning...a wonderful new understanding, a revelation. Are you ready? I am planning on getting one new blog on in the next few days...if I can. There is so much going on; so many good things happening. How are you?

Your friend,

Truth
philipharris said on Dec 16, 2007....

My publishers are Avatar Publication, Cambridge Books and Star Publish-but do not pass this around because I do not want to be accused of trying to publicize my writing-just kidding "fearing."

Fiat Lux
fearing said on Dec 16, 2007....
Ha ha ha!
StupidGenius said on Dec 17, 2007....

sean your posts attract loonies, mine seem to repel them like the fictional vampire is repelled by the cross stolen from pagen symbolitary. lol

its a funny old world isnt it.

Happy christmas all.

SG

"The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it."
lidstrom82 said on Dec 18, 2007....
Oh man, talk about a controversial quote!
Jesus never invented the cross, bro. What matters is what happened upon it - Jesus paying the penalty to save us all from permanent separation from God. What the church or people do to elevate or condemn the symbol of the cross over history is a manmade decision that doesn't necessarily count for much.
What does count is that Jesus died a criminal's death although he did nothing wrong. He did so willingly so that mankind and God would not have a severed relationship due to man's wickedness. Despite this, most of the people who witnessed it truly didn't get it. Two millennia later, most of us STILL don't get it. What we do with the Gospel of Jesus, the cross, or the Word of God can often miss the entire point. So please come up with something better that's worthy of the controversy :)
StupidGenius said on Dec 18, 2007....

I was not courting controversy my friend merely pointing out a fact.

If you want controversial how about we discuss Horus and how his story eliminates the possibility that the story of Jesus was true to any extent. Lid and Truth you two have still not given an ounce of a good answer on this topic and clearly struggle with its implications.

The story of Jesus is a copy. Christianity is also a copy. A copy of the Jewish faith with a little poetic license used to make it seem as though its different.

Oh dear. One day you will all learn and how silly will you feel when the big day comes and god doesn’t appear and present you with some magical place to live just because you sung songs about him. lol

SG
lidstrom82 said on Dec 18, 2007....
As I recall, you presented the point, I took the time to consider it, found out it was bogus, and I told you. Again I say, please come up with something new!
Besides man, I don't expect to get to Heaven by singing songs or going to church. "Don't go to church - BE the church." It's not enough to "look" Godly. You might peg some Christians with being showy, but it's a small victory; it's akin to catching some music fans with illegally downloaded music - it's a bad thing, but it's a given. Old news. Of course, I still want to tell such Christians that they're missing the point.
SG, I've heard all sorts of accusations and claims about the falsities of Christianity, and some have made me do the research, while others I can only laugh at. You do have some genuinely tough questions every believer should ask themselves about God; on the other hand, it seems other points come from a wayward stereotype of Christian/religious people.
What it comes down to is you're trying to make all people inclined to rule out religion in their lives. I agree with you on that except that I hold Christianity to be the only true one. I believe there's some truth to many religions, otherwise they wouldn't be appealing. But despite how crappy the human race can be, the Bible has stood the test of time. And even with Christianity, SG, like I said...peeps have to BE the church, not just go to it. You're always going to find hypocrites in the congregation, but you have never come up with an argument that led me to conclude that life without God would be better.
I think we're of the same mind in many ways, but your aversion to God would have us out to be enemies at times. Consider I've never condemned you to hell for your atheism. For the record, Christianity has its roots in Judaism, which is obvious, but controversy on the role of Jesus has left both religions going separate ways. Judaism still awaits its Messiah, and Christianity has embraced the Christ. Just an FYI.
All that goes to say there is more to the story than your assumptions, and recycling the same arguments gets tiresome, bro. At some point, one has to stop expecting to find a fatal scandal in anything that appears virtuous. If they continue expecting the worst, that makes them a cynic. By all means, be critical of your beliefs, people...but denouncing the beliefs of others without understanding them is ignorance.
StupidGenius said on Dec 18, 2007....

Ignorance - "the lack of knowledge or education"

I have both education and knowledge. On this subject I cannot be accused of ignorance. If you refuse to research, learn and/or understand your own faith then that would be classed as ignorance. When I make a statement I back it up with a source if requested. You simply state " I took the time to consider it, found out it was bogus, and I told you. Again I say, please come up with something new!"

Horus is only one of many, but I stick with Horus because you find it so hard to disprove. You find it hard to disprove because it is clearly written in Egyptian hieroglyphics and has been translated by Egyptologists. If it is bogus then point me to the source so that I may better understand your point.

The thing is lid. I don’t need to convince anyone of anything. You are the one who claims god exists and if you make a claim then you must back it up. If a stranger comes up to you and says "I just saw a ghost jumping up and down on your car naked apart from a sombrero yelling YYYeeeeehhhaaaawwww" Then im sure you would not believe him unless you saw it for yourself. If that same stranger asked you to "Just believe him" then im quite certain your answer would be "err... I don’t think so!!"

He is an oldie worldy saying for you...

"Thou should Back'est up'est what thou say'est"

SG
zjkdad said on Jan 29, 2008....

To answer some questions raised here:

Why would 10 of the 11 disciples die a martyrs death for a known lie? Many people would die for cause they "believed" to be true, but I don't know anyone who would be tortured and die for a story they made up. Another thing, the Jewish Authorites could have produced his body if it were there to disprove their claim.

Don't believe for one second that this group of "cowards" (remember they all denied Jesus and scattered during his trial and crucifixion. They were hiding in the upper room when Jesus appeard to them) could steal his body from 16 of Rome's finest soldiers. Another thing, if a Roman soldier fell asleep during his watch, all the soldiers on watch with him would be killed. I do not think 11 coward's could "sneak" past 16 sleeping Roman soldiers, roll a 2000 lb. rock away from a tomb and steal his body just to start a hoax. It takes more faith to believe this than it does the truth.

The only explanation for these cowards becoming emboldened in their faith is that they saw the risen Christ. Would anyone on this board be tortured for a known lie? Could we find 10 people to be tortured for that same lie? I do not think so. Not to mention the apostle Paul who killed Christians in the name of God. What would turn him around to become the greatest missionary of all time and die himself a martyr's death. Jesus Christ appeared to him. The old testament has over 600 prophesies about the messiah-who he would be, where he would come from, and how he would die. Only Jesus fulfilled all of these.

A non-believer owes it to yourself to investigate the claims of Jesus. Most of the greatest books written about Jesus started out as claims to disprove His claims to be God in the Flesh. After honestly looking at the facts, they became believers themselves.

Why is it so hard to believe that a God of love, justice, mercy, and holiness would take on flesh and die on a cross to pay the penalty for man's sin? All he asks of us is to believe in what Jesus did for us on the cross. Once we genuinely trust in what Jesus did for us, his spirit indwells us and changes us. We become different people because God's spirit lives in us. This is the greatest story ever told. People, this is why the story about Jesus in call "The Good News" When God saved me it changed my life completely. There is not enough room on this board for those who have been saved to share what God has done for them.

If you are an unbeliever, ask God to show you the truth and read the book of John in the New Testament. Remember it was written by someone who spent three years with Jesus. He was an eye witness to His miracles and the death and resurrection of Jesus. Keep an open heart and mind.
SeanRenaud said on Jan 29, 2008....

Problem here is that you are using a book that may be fictional to make it true. Very little of this is documented anywhere but the Bible. Which doesn't make it any less true but still.

I mean I could just as well ask why so many gave their lives so Frodo could take the one ring to the Mt. Doom. I hardly think that Gandalf would have given his life fighting a Balrog for a lie.
lidstrom82 said on Jan 29, 2008....
Right on. Those are great points to make. :)

I'd imagine not every living Christian will be called upon to suffer and die because of their faith in Jesus Christ, but if ever in that position, that martyr would do well to remember the disciples - and how they grew from cowardice to stick to the truth, even if it meant death. And death loses its uncertainty when you know what lies upon the other side - you don't - *poof* - cease to exist, you find yourself prepared for eternity because of what God led you through in this life.

Now I know this sounds positively insane to anyone who didn't grow up in a religious background (that includes myself, by the way), but the only way you find out if it's true or not is to ask God. If anyone wants proof of anything, you go to the source of that thing's existence. If an atheist demands proof but is unwilling to ask God Himself, they not only conclude He isn't there, but have cut off the means to SEE any proof. We call that a self-fulfilling prophecy, or self-handicapping in psychological terms.

In that sense, why accuse others of blind faith when you're guilty of self-imposed ignorance? That isn't just a question for you, SG. IN the United States, atheism is a significant minority of the population - not because of religious brainwashing, not because people are dumb as sheep and are led that way, and not because it's just what our parents did. I'm sure those occur in some capacity, but the real reason is that all people are built with a need for power greater than themselves. Why else do psychics get their business, for example? Or horoscopes? Or magick?

Or how about conspiracy theories? In that sense, you don't ascribe to a higher power - you swear by "hidden knowledge" that you possess over the majority of the population. It appears to give one control where really they spread grand rumors. In the case of 9/11 "hoaxes", it's no more than water cooler gossip on a catastrophic level.

I've seen people use knowledge and education to lord it over others, and I've seen people try to wield power over others to manipulate, control, and to gain. And that is what inspires me a great deal about Jesus Christ - His very life polarizes all of humanity, but He leaves the choice to us. He tells us the benefits of saying yes to Him, and the consequences of saying no. Being a Christian is much harder than living for yourself, but faced between paradise and weeping & gnashing of teeth, the choice is obvious. Atheists or skeptics of Christianity may want God to plop down in front of them and apologetically explain how He scientifically exists, and that's, well, stupid. Why? Because if you sit alone inside your home, lock all your doors, and expect specific people to visit, it's not likely anyone will come in. Why would the God that created you, that sent His Son to die and be resurrected to save you from Hell, all of a sudden bust down your door and state his case? In other words, why would the God that gave us everything, have to do even more to overcome years of biased stubbornness within the man who chose to know too little?

Maybe such people expect Jesus to show up out of nowhere, like he did with the apostle Paul. Honestly? God did exactly what was needed for this one guy, Paul, to pay attention. Most of the time, though, all it takes is for a person to pray or to read the bible with an open mind, and sometimes it means *gasp!* listening to Christians without scoffing at their every word. Without an inkling of openness to believe in God, you won't know the proof even when it stares you in the face. The blinders cover your vision and your ears are stopped by the secular education of the world, and your own pride in what you claim to know.

Blessed is he who has not seen and yet does believe.
lidstrom82 said on Jan 29, 2008....
Wow Renaud, that's kinda true. Think of it this way: if the Bible were 100% proven to be true, there'd STILL be skeptics.

However, there is sufficient reason to believe that if the Bible were merely a work of fiction, like said gray wizard and his fellowship, a great chunk of humanity wouldn't follow it as fervently as they do. Costume parties and movie premieres notwithstanding, you'd be hard-pressed to find devoted followers of "Tolkienism." :)

Although, not everyone can tell fiction from religion, i.e. Scientology.

But with all that said, you can't liken the Bible's credibility to Tolkien. Besides, Tolkien was a Catholic, so your case doesn't hold weight if the author of the book you're using as an example, was a follow of Jesus himself.

Besides Renaud, you're forgetting prayer. Miracles. Nature itself. All things that point to the existence of God aside from the Bible. If someone is skeptical of the Bible, they might be more open to hearing the Gospel through a person they respect, through christian heavy metal music (yes, it does exist, and no, it's not hypocritical), through study of the complexities of even one living organism, through miraculous circumstances in their lives. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

So for all those reasons, Sean, I'd have to say there isn't a problem at all with believing the Bible is true - or at least more true than fantasy literature.
SeanRenaud said on Jan 29, 2008....

While I'd be willing to debate the historical accuracy of the Bible. I do believe that it is part true part fiction. Like many of the American Legends. Do I believe there was an Anne Oakly? Absolutely. Do I believe she could hit squirell between the eyes from gallping horseback? MAybe, just maybe she got lucky once.

My point was that you can't use the Bible, to verify the Bible. It simply doesn't work that way. Not any more than the events of Return of the King verify the events of The Hobbit. Or anymore than you saying I swear on my Momma's Grave! Verifies your story about catching a catfish "THIS BIG". At the moment I wasn't attacking the Bible, rather I was attacking that line of logic.
lidstrom82 said on Jan 29, 2008....
That's fair dude, besides any other comments on this posts are padding your stats, so to speak :) I have no idea what point you were making, other than your own logic was wonky for reasons already explained.
Here's the trump card with the Bible - if God says His Word is true, and confirms it in a person through prayer, then the Bible doesn't have to verify itself. It's cool that you find it part true, and that works fine for a nonchristian, but it's a slippery slope for anyone who is. Why? Because it's too easy to mold the Bible to what you want it to say that way. For instance, a gay Christian can simply dismiss any verses speaking about homosexuality as being a sin, and verify their position with sources other than the Bible. If God indeed sees unrepentant homosexuality as a sin, that gay Christian isn't condemned to hell (who are we to keep score on that?), but it can sure compromise their beliefs.
I hold that the Bible is a closed book to Christian or nonchristian alike unless we are open to the possibility that it IS God's Word, and that it all contains truth.
SeanRenaud said on Jan 29, 2008....

Right, and there lies the true crux of many of my debates with Christians. I mean usually I'm ultimately told that accepting Christ means that you will sin less but you can't ask them to be perfect because they are still human. Hense it's ok to be gay despite what is written because they aren't perfect. Or obviously that one rich guy put money before God and that's why the whole line about the camel and the pin, but it's ok for them not to give generously to donations, but they are inherently different from that guy. So on and so forth.

As for believing that it is in part fact, well that's pretty solidly proven. The Jews were at some point enslaved in Egypt. There was a Temple. Isreal was conquered by Rome. When you start talking the miracles. There WAS NO worldwide flood. Period. It simply didn't happen. I don't believe there was an Adam and Eve, I don't believe Jesus fed 30 people with 3 loaves of bread and 2 Fish (or whatever the final count was).

As for God answering prayers and the such (I really think it's just a combination of positive thoughts and getting lucky) but to be fair I'd be willing to count God as separate source as far as verifying things. function openWin(pageName) { window.open(pageName,"SoulcastPostMailer","height=520,width=730,toolbars=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes"); }
SeanRenaud said on Jan 29, 2008....

Right, and there lies the true crux of many of my debates with Christians. I mean usually I'm ultimately told that accepting Christ means that you wi

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