SoulCast - The Problem With The Bible

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The Problem With The Bible

shiningstar posted on Jun 24, 2007 | views: 886 | Tags: Bible, Jesus, religion, god, Jehovah, wrong, faith

The Bible appears to be filled with contradictions. It is an old saying that anyone can prove anything by the Bible. But any time something does not appear to make sense there is a reason for that. The reason, in this case, is that two stories are interwoven into one. The Old Testament, though horrible to read, is perfectly clear as Jehovah and his Prophets make no bones about what they want and the ends to which they will go to accomplish their goal.They stand at the top in power. All are below them and must worship without question. There is nothing to misunderstand or is contradictory. The New Testament from the Book of Acts to Revelation is also non-contradictory. It is only the 100 or so pages devoted to the life and teachings of Jesus that create the problems. Here the Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John give 4 different versions of one story. That would be comparable to teaching math 4 different ways and would create the same problem. Confusion. I imagine that is exactly what it is meant to do for otherwise the truth would be far easier to discover.In these Books the words of Jesus are purposely mixed with the words of the Old Testament in order to weave Jehovah and Jesus into one and the same god. Jesus is supposed to be representing Jehovah just as the Prophets did. The only problem is that Jesus is not like them. He does not act like them or teach what they taught. That is why the 4 versions are given in the first place. The contradictions keep people so busy debating over no one looks any deeper to find out why it is there in the first place.The Hebrew Nation, which Jesus was born into, lived among and gave his teachings to ona constant basis knew that he was not sent by Jehovah and they saw him, could touch and hear him as we cannot. He was hung from a tree for the religious sin of blasphemy which means speaking against Jehovah that which he was indeed doing. He did not plead innocent to this crime because that was what his mission was. That was what he came to set them free from.

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Comments

StupidGenius said on Jun 27, 2007....

The bible is drivel im afraid sean. If you believe in it then you are delusional. all religion stemed from judeism with the exeption of hinduism and budsim. The old testament is a rip off of the Tenakh.

Mohammed and Paul of Tarsus visited palestine and derived their own version of the truth from a tribal community which in effect was the earliest form of judaism hence old testament whick contains a racist, war mongering, murdering ethnic clenser you call god.

All religious texts are based on chinese whispers. If my freind told you that He had heard from a freind of a freind that I was God and showed you a book he had written about my life derived from all my freinds knowledge of me would you believe that I was god? If not, Why not?
SeanRenaud said on Jun 27, 2007....

LOL ROFL LMAO

1. The Bible is largely based in historical fact, it's not quite drivel.

2. Mohammed and Paul were not contemporaries.

3. Religious texts based on Chinese whispers? Where did you get that crap? Judaism is decended from Zorastrianism which had nothing to do with China at all. Nor did Budhism, Hinduism, or whatever the Greek and Egyptian pantheons are named.

4. I'm an Aethist. I'm just not an idiot.
StupidGenius said on Jun 27, 2007....

ok mate, you need to learn to read,

1. The bible is not based on historical fact, its was written over time by many different people through different periods in history. That in no way makes what it says fact???

2. This is a fact. Paul or Tarsus visited palestine and created the first workings that contributed to bible based on the religiose sect that became judaism. Look It up. Mohammed Did the same. Infact mohammed sat in a cave and when he came out he claimed god had spoken to him and thats how the islamic faith was born.

3. Definition of "Chinese Whispers" - When a story is told from person to person, especially if it is gossip or scandal, it inevitably gets distorted and exaggerated. This process is called Chinese whispers.

Knowing how to use wikipedia dosnt mean you knwo how to read. Im an Athiest and your the idiot lol.
StupidGenius said on Jun 28, 2007....

lol here we go again...

"Paul of Tarsis was one of the founders of Christianity he personally knew Jesus (if such a man truly existed) of course he visited Palestine but that didn't have."

1. Here is a fact -

St. Paul the Apostle (born ca. 10, died ca. 67) (שאול התרסי in Hebrew), the "Apostle to the Gentiles" (Romans 11:13, Galatians 2:8) was, together with St.Peter, the most notable of Early Christian missionaries. Unlike the Twelve Apostles, Paul did not know Jesus in life; he came to faith through a vision of the risen Jesus

"Paul did not know jesus". He didnt even claim to know him personnaly. Thats that point cleared up I hope.

2. "So you are disputing that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt? Or are you disputing the existance of King David or Solomon. Maybe your claiming that Persians never conquered Isreal or that Rome had dominance in the area. Maybe your claiming there never was a Temple in Jerusalem."

In what part of my argument did I claim any of this?? I think you have gone from not reading clearly what I wrote to finding things that I didnt write.

3. "The priests were also the scholars so they had power that reached well beyond Chinese Whispers. If I were uneducated and your friend said that you were god, then nuked a city and said that was because you were pissed I'd believe you were God, and with very little exageration."

Now you have gone from ok'ish argument to completely mad!!

What power are you talking about you maniac. Did they pluck the storys from thin air with there god given powers? I dont think so matey.

It may interest you to know that there is a strong link between uneducated and being religious. I didnt make the figures but I can find the statistics for you.

Lastly there is no proof that god did anything, just because a natural disaster happened does not mean it was god. In those times the people had little understanding of the workings of nature so a natural disaster would have quite rightly seemed like an act of "God".

I wait eagily for your reply.

SG (A.K.A GOD)
StupidGenius said on Jun 28, 2007....
It think theis argument has run its course if the you now only down to one point which is still wrong. Just because they were scolars dosnt mean that what they said was fact. Their beliefs were still formed from a dream/vision etc so therefore not based on reality. You have a very strange way of showing your athiest side. Still, whatever rocks your boat mate. Just try and read up a bit more before quoting or stating things that are easily proved false. 1 - 0 to me I think lol.
SeanRenaud said on Jun 28, 2007....

It means people believed what they said, the same phenomon is seen today with say Global Warming. Also we're 1 for one, you were right that I had Paul mistaken for one of the Apostles, that was my bust.

How is my Aetheism funny? I find your apparent lack of respect/understanding for how these people took control of the world scary, how are we to abolish it if we don't understand it? You are right that there is a direct correlation between inteligence, education and religion. Which makes the current trends of America all the more frightening. We are fairly unique in that we don't live in the stone age but we stil believe in spirits.

You however failed to prove that the Bible doesn't contain a great deal of historical facts and that even if it didn't that it doesn't fit the definition of drivel because there is wisdom to be found in its words.
StupidGenius said on Jun 29, 2007....

In my opinion it is drivel not because of "some" Historical Facts and "some" moral directions but because its overall purpose was to conform the masses to believe in a complete falacy.

If I wrote a book about how crap is realy nice to eat but also added some history into its pages that dosnt mean that what I have written is any good.

You will find that the old testament in particular and also the very earliest texts of the Tenakh contained many moral directions which today we would put people in prison for or in some cases invoke the death penalty.

I re-state my argument. It is drivel because it contains only the most basic of social advice (which in my opinion has evolved without the help of the bible) and its aim was not based on a just cause, instead, it is based on forced segregation.

When I say things like 1-0 and other anoying sarcastic things I am only joking and I truly hope you havnt taken any offence to my remarks. I enjoy a good discussion and this is one of those times when the discussion has been good.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jun 29, 2007....

Ok that is at least a solid point. Though it would be impossible to know we would have evolved the same way without the Bible. It seems highly unlikely. We might have end up better off, without it, maybe worse off. To much of our legal system is directly taken from the Bible for us to ever really know that. It's like saying that the interaction between blacks and whites in the US would be better if there had never been slavery. Well maybe, then again maybe blacks would have been exterminated, maybe they would have been left alone and to this day wouldn't be in this nation. Hard to tell you know.

It's not exactly the same as saying if crap was good to eat. It's more like trying to pass off the ant and the grasshopper as historical fact. It would come complete with worshipping ants and letting them live in your house and going out of your way to destroy all grasshoppers. We know grasshoppers are evil (as they resemble locusts) and have caused countless plagues.

I wasn't offended, merely clearing up the score.
shiningstar said on Jul 04, 2007....

I repeat the Bible does not contradict it's self if you understand that there are two stories purposely woven into one inorder to make Jesus appear to be "One" with Jehovah or his son. Neither being the truth. The four books mentioned do give 4 accounts but that is just the obvious. The deeper truth is that it IS like math being taught four ways because it keeps people busy trying to figure out what is and is not said or done. Only here is the contradictions and they are the only place that make people say that anyone can prove anything by quoting the Bible. Jesus a man of love did not open his mouth and let out the condemnation and vileness that appears as if he spoke it. Thatr is straight out of the mouth of jehovah and the OT.
StupidGenius said on Jul 08, 2007....

The bible clearly contradicts, this is one of many examples...

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; That they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 08, 2007....

Really the only answer is the ignore ShiningStar, he's clearly delusional and when asked to bring up specifics he refuses time and time again. He's either an idiot or a liar and I'm not sure which yet. Hopefully he'll hurry up and publish his edit of the Bible that only includes things he thinks are right.
StupidGenius said on Jul 08, 2007....

LOL Sean.

True but I like to think that when he logs onto Soulcast, he reads our posts and his head starts to spin round and round like the girl in the excorsist because he cant grasp what we are saying to him. Because this thought makes me smile I will continue to post on his blogs.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 08, 2007....

Don't worry, I can't help but feed the troll myself.
shiningstar said on Jul 09, 2007....
You guys are so cute and so wordy. Grow up a bit and maybe you ccan even learn something new. If all you know is what you all ready know then you are not growing. Your beliefs appear to be in a little sandbox. You defend your sandbox like you are at war and refuse to recognise or even comptemplate that what you have been taught to believe may not be correct. You negate any one else's beliefs and make fun of them. Are they so much of a threat to your sandbox that you must call them names and defame people? You would have been right at home when Jesus appeared on the scene. he was called names too and defamed by those just like you because they refused to hear another side of the story. Peace and Love to you both my friends and do come back and display a grander sense of objectivity.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 09, 2007....

No Shining, we aren't defending a sandbox. We are defending fact and reason which is completely divorced from your logic. Time and time again I ask you to provide some kind of Biblical or Historical facts to support your claims and time and time again you fail to do so.

You have such beautiful ideas that it is a shame that it hidden behind so much ignorance. And that is giving you the benefit of the doubt, the alternative is that you are a liar.

Take Jesus, how can you believe in what Jesus said, but not believe that he died for our sins? Don't get me wrong, you're not the first person to believe that the God of the OT isn't the same as the God of the NT, the Gnostics believe that. Several other "Satanic" cults share a similar belief about the identity of God. A few people even think like you do with Revelations. Of course erasing Revelations is a little harder because it involves Jesus.

The whole, poor me everybody is picking on me cus I'm different routine doesn't work on me. I do that crap every single day, the fact that you have a different idea doesn't mean that you are worthy of respect. At some point stupid ideas have to be shouted down so the world can move forward. Listening to you is like defending leeching, or the world being flat. If we let those kinds of ideas flourish we eventually end up right where we are, with a goddamn Musuem to Creationism. That was what happened the last time inteligent people failed to take liars and fools seriously and if it takes 5 minutes out of my day to keep doing my part to keep it from happening again I will.
shiningstar said on Jul 15, 2007....
SN if you would just use that attitude of deriding everything except what you believe you might be able to understand what I am saying. The Bible is full of what I am saying but any time I once did provide references you shot them down and torn them apart too because you only want to believe what you have been taught, taught yourself or believe. And that is perfectly OK with me. Jesus came to free people from religion not to create a new one. He came to set people free from the teachings of Jehovah who made false claims about being the creator of the world and all that is in it. I ask you who would you rather meet on a dark night on the streets? One who has the consciousness of Jehovah or one who has the consciousness of Jesus? By mixing the two together we have created a world where one can never tell exactly which consciousness one is because all embrace both. No, Jesus will not come and save you from what you have created. Better to be like the teacher and be Do'ers of his teachings than to fall down before him and worship which is what Jehovah wanted not Jesus.
StupidGenius said on Jul 15, 2007....

Shining star -

The problem you have is that you are trying to fight Fact with a medly of Fiction. Lets talk about this subject purely on a factual basis.

You go first.

Tell me Fatualy why me and sean should believe in "God"

SG
muckpar said on Jul 15, 2007....

An aetheist cannot comprehend Christian faith. I hope and pray you two aetheists do someday. Have a nice day.
StupidGenius said on Jul 15, 2007....

LOL you are funny

Just the same as I cant understand the high a heroin addict gets when he injects himself. Your religion is the equivelent.

SG
shiningstar said on Jul 16, 2007....

SG; I have never asked you or Sean tobelieve in a god of mine or anyone else's. The essense that creates you bodies, mine and all of creation I call Prime Creator or Divine Intelligence. All knowledge is really personal knowledge and one proves to themselves only what they believe or do not believe. I share my beliefs. That is all. They are based on the answers that I have found. I am not a Christian because I do not believe that Jesus died for anyone's so called sin. I do know that he came to set people free and the only thing that ever kept the Hebrew Nation from being free was their god Jehovah. He was called a burden by his own people who he controlled each and every moment even unto that which they ate,drank and every tiny aspect of their everyday lives.He was not the creator of the world but siad that he was and has been believed for a long time. Mixing the two characters into one allowed the creators of the Bible these many years to implement their plans and bring the world to it's knees in poverty, control and lack of equality.Power over others and control of the people is what we see every day being done to us all.
StupidGenius said on Jul 16, 2007....

Shiningstar I would like to better understand your core beliefes and how you came to believe them. I am interested in your journey. I currently answer private messages from people who are religious and want a better understanding of Atheism. I woud like to have a discussion with you so that you may also benefit from a greater understanding of why I believe in evolution and Natural selection.

I think we should all try and understand each other even if we do not believe what each other is saying. I dont believe in what hitler said but it is interesting to people what he thought and what he was thinking when we were at war with him.

I will leave it up to you. My private messages are always answered without the intention of offending.

SG
shiningstar said on Jul 17, 2007....

I too,believe in natural selection and evolution . Where have I said that I do not? However there is more to the story than those words. It is what made these things and are these things that I refer to as Divine Intelligence. My point is and has always been and ever shall be is to reveal the consciousness that the world has been and is following that is destroying our world and taking away our freedom. Jesus came to offer us a new way to live that would allow us to choose to not do these things because in the long run they would turn against us and create just what we are facing today. The choice is and always has been to follow the consciousness of Jehovah and use any power we have and use it to control or hurt others. Jesus came to show us the power within each self to create their own reality and live as he lived and create as he created. He dies for no ones "sin". That is a saying created by the religions so they could provide the redemption and keep the same power of the priests of Jehovah.The words, the verses, the books matters not to be . It is the consciousness that comes from putting two teachings into one that I teach.
StupidGenius said on Jul 17, 2007....

I am confused, you believe in Evolution and natural selction but also in Jesus, they seem very incompatible unless you are discarding the bible apart from the part where Jesus is prevelent.

That is what I ment by better understanding your beliefs.

SG
shiningstar said on Jul 18, 2007....
I totally understand my beliefs, where they come from and why I believe them.I am not discarding anything.Simply put Jesus came to set people free from the religious beliefs that destroy life. He came to prove to them that there was more to them than their bodies and what they could see and touch.Jehovah had taken them into such a restricted life that they might as well not have life for he ruled every detail of it. The old god Jehovah had tricked the people into believing that he was God with the Big G which was not a truth.Only by weaving the Jesus story into the Jehovah story could religion keep the people in the synagogues for they were tired of Jehovah as the last part of the OT states.Jesus was loved by all and if they could only convince the people that he and Jehovah were one they had a chance of keeping the people and more importantly keeping the power and wealth so the plan was implemented and so far has been extremely sucessful.
StupidGenius said on Jul 19, 2007....

Explain why you dont believe in gods that were worshipped before jesus, the bible, old teatament etc were even thought of. To deny their existance is to deny the existance of the god of christianity.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Jul 19, 2007....

He also doesn't believe that Jesus died for our sins, or in revelations. I can't figure out exactly what he does believe.
shiningstar said on Jul 19, 2007....

I did not say that I did or did not believe in any gods before Jesus and I have never said that I do not believe or not believe in the Book of Revelations. I have said that Jesus died for no ones sins that is a creation of religion.If everyone in the world died for one person that would not change that person into a person who loved and forgave all people or make them a greater person. It would not make them to be able to do the greater things than Jesus did. The word sin was coined from an ancient archery term which meant to "miss the mark". Sin under the mark of religion means to live ones life differently than what the church or religion teaches. Unfortunately all disagree as to exactly what the rules are hence 11,000 different variations of religions.(Nothings easy My Friend).Jesus knew that the natural way of life that all live until they get "civilized" is the only way to live. NO book. If the animals had to live by a book they would be in the same shape that people are.To walk away from natural life, that which has proven to work, eventually destroys the people for they set up those aove them that betray them and then the masses take the kingdom back or starve to death and their "civilization" disappears.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 19, 2007....
Wow Renaud, now I finally understand what you were talking about in the "Jesus Christ" thread. Shiningstar, it almost sounds like you're taking Christianity and melding it with some New Age beliefs, i.e. "the power within", and stuff relating to Jehovah and Jesus being woven together intentionally to keep people's attention. Sorry, I don't buy that. It's a mishmash of Godly truth and worldly wisdom that debunks both in your view. It acknowledges Jesus but not His divinity, so you've discounted a great deal of the Bible for yourself, but you also acknowledge Jehovah as a higher power, which is in conflict with evolution and natural selection that is purely explained by science. So, which is it?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 19, 2007....

Like I was saying, you two are not on the same page. Proably not the same book. You are coming from someplace solid (wrong in my view) but solid. Shining is just all over the place.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 20, 2007....
Question though, Renaud. How does the former leader of the choir and the pastor at your old church fit into your belief that the Bible is wrong? Or the support group you used to attend before you moved?

You had people that cared for you genuinely, and you said they didn't do anything to damage your view of Christianity or religion...but despite their kindness, and the source of their kindness, if you believe the Bible is wrong, then that makes their whole lives a lie for believing it. Can you honestly conclude that of people that showed you kindness and knew you personally?
shiningstar said on Jul 20, 2007....
That is exactly what Jesus taught SR to believe in their selves and improve their world instead of waiting for someone else to come and fix it for them.(I could not have said it better myself). Thanks. Mistakes made by people are just another way of saying that they needed that experience in order to understand it and not do it any more. Life is about learning the self. If you have not been it or done it you need the personal experience in order to understand it. Knowledge allows one to comptemplate until something is learned so one does not have to have the experience or continue it.
lidstrom82 said on Jul 20, 2007....
Please don't settle for the imperfection of people without believing there is something or someone to help us overcome it. I think Christianity is the answer to that. Socialists and Green Peace and whoever may have a good cause to go by, but that doesn't mean they have the Truth. Communism is a good idea in theory only, I think, because carrying it out tends to demand a benevolent ruler, and far too often a tyrant has risen up and taken the ideal to an extreme. That twisting of an ideal because of human imperfection is true of Christians and the Crusades, Islam and terrorism, and more examples.

But if there is one truth in the universe, humans are going to get that wrong, too. So how do we know what's going to save our lives from our own imperfection, and what's going to refer to a Hollywood motion picture as prophecy?

I believe Jesus is the answer, and it's right in front of you, Renaud. Think of how depressing life would be if all we had was human imperfection. You probably gained your current worldview from the imperfect teachings of another imperfect human being, or somewhere along the line you counted out the Bible as truth because your imperfection couldn't grasp it somehow. Very often, people don't see the truth of the Bible because they themselves are "damaged goods," and imperfection everywhere makes them believe that nothing ever could be perfect.

But here's the brain twister: if all there is around us is imperfection, how do we know what perfection is in the first place? Example: someone who grows up in complete darkness has no knowledge of sunlight. How can they understand the difference between darkness and light if they never see light of any kind? Unless someone tells them, they don't. And even then, they'd likely have to see it for themselves.

So I challenge you to do the same. The Bible offers you a full explanation of that light. It tells you what perfection is, and how perfection in Jesus can heal us of the consequences of our imperfection. God is the perfection defined that we measure imperfection by. If someone disbelieves that, then they risk living in darkness, as the analogy concludes.

Let me tell you, the light/dark analogy, while not perfect (no analogy is), is incredibly effective. If you live in total dark and walk into light for the first time, it will be uncomfortable. It is blinding, and takes time for your eyes to adjust. But if you stay in the light, you see everything that you missed before in darkness. That's what the Bible is intended to do to a dark world of imperfection - point to a hope in a perfect God. Would it make sense to consider the possibility that anyone who does not know, or does not believe the Bible is true, is stuck in darkness/imperfection? You can't see the light in a dark place. But if you consider the Bible offers insight into what is perfect, and what is light, then you will benefit from it much more than you would assuming it's fiction.
shiningstar said on Jul 20, 2007....
My dear one , why would any God with the Big G make a world of imperfection filled with imperfect beings? Do you see all other life on the planet as imperfect??What about the plants, animals, Mother Nature, the cosmos? Is everything in your world perfect except humans?So those supposedly at the top of the food chain, those made be the caretakers are the most imperfect? Does that sound logical or reasonable to you? If you had the power is that the world you would create? If you were that power would you commit premeditated murder by creating a son that would be killed to satisfy your vengence because people didnt like you and refused to live by your laws because they made their lives such a huge burden? Where is the sense in that ?
shiningstar said on Jul 20, 2007....
My dear one , why would any God with the Big G make a world of imperfection filled with imperfect beings? Do you see all other life on the planet as imperfect??What about the plants, animals, Mother Nature, the cosmos? Is everything in your world perfect except humans?So those supposedly at the top of the food chain, those made be the caretakers are the most imperfect? Does that sound logical or reasonable to you? If you had the power is that the world you would create? If you were that power would you commit premeditated murder by creating a son that would be killed to satisfy your vengence because people didnt like you and refused to live by your laws because they made their lives such a huge burden? Where is the sense in that ?
SeanRenaud said on Jul 20, 2007....

Plants are perfect? Ok I'll let that slide.

Mother nature is an abstract, I might as well tell you the US economy is perfect.

The Cosmos? If your idea of perfect is big rocks randomly running into shit then yeah the Cosmos is perfect.

The vast majority of things are very far from perfect. Humans are far from perfect for a number of biological and anatomical reasons.
SeanRenaud said on Jul 20, 2007....

ROFL. Only review is by the author? Cute, I might pick it up this month though, so honestly how hard was it to get to press? How many hoops did you jump through and who did you go through?
StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

Sean is right, the world and universe is far from perfect, Natural selection is a slow process which is also filled with imperfect evolutionary steps. But everynow and then a step in the evolutionary process takes place which brings about a specific change.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....
Plants are perfect? Hmm...

The Bible attributes the danger of nature in the Fall of Man, where Adam and Eve left the garden of Eden into a hostile world that they wouldn't have had to endure had they obeyed God.

I believe nature and its complexities are proof of God's existence, personally, because although we make it work for us, much of it is beyond our control and understanding. Most of the world is covered in water, and we can only scratch the surface of the ocean depths, and we are most likely far from classifying all species on the Earth. These are things mankind can likely overcome given enough time, but it's complexity and the fact that we ourselves did not create the Earth, is proof to me of a smarter, higher power. It suggests a God that created people that, even though they don't always listen fo Him, are still provided for by Earth's nature, by the plants and trees that offer nutrition and wood for shelter/heat, to the animals that provide meat - and amazement at their abilities.

So in short, I think humanity is to blame for the imperfection that surrounds us. And because we're imperfect, we can't make everything better by our own power. We can't overcome the great evils of mankind with wisdom or by force.
StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

Lidstrome,

Just because something seems amazing and complex dosnt mean that a higher power invented it. In the wars that ravaged the middle ages, do you not think that some of the machines of war must have seemed so amazing and complex that a higher being must have created them. Some of them were. But they were only attributed to gods design by the people that didnt undertsand how they were made. When man first discovered fire, they thought that it was supernatural. They didnt understand the science that was involved in its creation so they atributed it to god and it was even worshipped.

If you dont understand something it dosnt automaticaly mean that god made it or created it.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....
No, you're absolutely right. I'm sure guns seemed godly to Native Americans.

But in this one thing, I'm talking about the entire place upon which we depend upon for all our material needs. I'm not talking about weapons of war, or just elemental forces. I'm talking about the planet we didn't make. Everything we make with our hands came from materials that were already put there.

But notice I'm not saying, "Let's worship the Earth," because it gives us food and water and shelter and the means with which to make a living.

I worship God because He created us and the Earth, but He also understands the human condition with an honesty most aren't willing to accept (you and me included). To know God is to admit your own failures and shortcomings, and many don't get past that point, because we're either puffed up on our own knowledge or ability, or we want to block out the hurts that we carry with us. Or, we're just resentful to God.

Didn't Darwin say that his theories couldn't explain even the complexities of the human eye, let alone the entire organism? (I'd like everyone to check that out to verify that)

There are limits to science, but "Nothing is impossible with God." But asserted nonbelief in God certainly limits one's abilities.
StupidGenius said on Jul 23, 2007....

You worship god because you believe he exists, not because you know he exists. You have faith that he exists. I know Natural selection to be true because it is proven. There is no doubt that is is correct and true. I do not need to put faith in it.

Darwins theories do explain the evolution of the eye through natural selection.

Your beliefs are based on theory and mine on facts.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 23, 2007....
Mine is based on faith, not theory. And just because solid fact does not seem to support faith, doesn't make faith ridiculous. There would be those who would say the opposite, that you are foolhardy for limiting yourself only to what you can prove and see, and that adhering to natural selection will not help you in Heaven.

At some point, you were influenced by others to believe what you do. Christians are influenced by the Bible, and are taught by each other and by pastors. It's the same thing, dawg.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/darwinc.html

It does seem the human eye gave Darwin pause, until he concluded that given enough time, any nerve could become sensitive to light, and grow from there.

I have a question, SGenius. The human body, in its separate parts, is quite useless compared to the sum of them in a whole human body. Did whole organisms grow from a small size, adding components as needed through evolution?

The link above does explain that Darwin acknowledged how his theory did tend to take away some of the splendor of nature, as it did not account for the wonder felt when beholding them. He also referred to himself as the "Devil's Chaplain", probably humorously, but if God is true, then few have done more damage to His existence and our purpose than Charles Darwin.

Where do we see evolutionary leaps, or gradual change in living organisms? It seems all the action has happened before our time, or is developing so slowly that it won't be detectable for thousands more years. That takes just a bit of struggling with the imagination, and sounds reminiscent of a religion in which all the action took place before our time, such as the events of the Bible.

It's entirely possible to say that God allowed adaptive qualities to living beings to survive changes in the Earth's condition, or their own habitat. Our eyes can adjust to light and darkness given enough time, but on a larger scale, species could adapt as needed. I tend to think the qualities of evolution fit into God's plan, rather than superceding it.

You can dismiss faith if you want; your paradigm doesn't allow for placing such importance on unseen things. Hey, that's cool. You know what you believe, and why. I just think you will have a broader perspective if you didn't assume religion was a malevolent force on the world, because while I largely agree with you on that, I believe Jesus is the one person worth worshipping and believing in.
StupidGenius said on Jul 24, 2007....

What you have just said leads me to believe that you have a lazy mind when it comes to understanding facts.

The human body in all its seperate parts is irrelevent because the human body as a whole evolved. An arm and a leg didnt meet up on the beach on day and decide to get together. They are part of the slow steady often frought evolutionary process.

Placing god as the answer to everything on earth is a lazy assumption. I would suggest you research his theroy more fully and also that of natural selection. Im not concerened about heaven because it is a non existant place to me and thefore causes me know more mental harship than deciding which burger to buy in McDonalds.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 24, 2007....
I think you're missing out, and somewhere, you know it :)
StupidGenius said on Jul 24, 2007....

lol, care to elaborate

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 24, 2007....
Sure...I don't think anybody in your life up 'till now has given you a sense of what faith in God can really offer. Maybe you've known it but no one encouraged it as they could have. Or maybe somebody hurt you and discouraged faith. Or maybe you've been taught to support natural selection all along. But whatever the case is, I think that the current view you see religion through is not best for you or for those religious folk you speak to.

I really feel that science explains the what and the how, but religion attempts to explain the why. I think only Christianity has the true "why" out of all other religions because of Jesus and what He taught, and how He lived His life. No other religious practice, dogma, deity, or tradition has had a bigger impact. So after looking at other religions, I've made a choice, and it wasn't lazy.

Or maybe it's not lazy, and it could be just that easy that God created everything.

Now, this is what NOBODY knows: if God supposedly created everything, where did He come from? That's a very good question, but remember that God is beyond human understanding, and if He created something like time for us to base our lives around, the Creator Himself may not need such limitations upon Himself.

For instance, a clockmaker can assemble a beautiful clock, but He doesn't need that particular clock to know what time it is. On a bigger level, God can create us with specific abilities and limits to protect us and keep us working functionally, but as our Creator He is not bound to the same limits. It could be that God has always existed, and while that's hard to believe for us who know we definitely are born and die, there's much more we don't understand, that can be accounted for by a Creating, loving God.

What it comes down to is this, SG: I don't believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ is poisonous or delusional to those that hear it. It sounds too good to be true because we're surrounded by imperfection and a world that's often cruel. But maybe that's WHY we need a perfect savior. We need to hope in something beyond our friends, our spouses, our jobs, all things that end, let us down, or outright fail sometimes. SG, we're about the same age, and there's not much we need that we can't provide for ourselves, being young and all. But there will come a time we need a hope that will make things right when we fail, that comforts us when we're about to die, that loves us even when we didn't believe. I hated my life before God rescued me. And now, I have compassion for those I didn't care for. It's a wonderful gift I'd wish everyone to have. And that's why I've been so adamant about sharing it with you, SG.
StupidGenius said on Jul 25, 2007....

I dont think you can claim christianity to be the truest of faiths because of jesus. We could argue the irregularites of the bible with regards to Jesus all day. I think you should consider whether you actualy believe in jesus because it is the most accesable and imbred of faiths in America which I assume is where you live?

I have have faith in myself. I will be comforted before I die that I have contributed to the evolution of life on earth by being a father. I will be content that I have helped to create another life (My wife being the other contributor). I do not fear death because death in innevitable, I do not need a supernatural support system to aid my recovery from depression, I have faith in myself and I belive in my ability to overcome anything.

I am not therefore missing out because my life is filled to the brim with everything I have need. I will have bad times and have had bad times but I am still here.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Jul 25, 2007....
Sure you're still here, and that's great dude. Having faith in yourself is good because you're not lowballing your abilities, and there's sense in everything you say. I just don't think it will hold up as well as you would if you had faith in God instead.

I've looked at other faiths, which is all I can do short of traveling the world and speaking to region-specific religions. Christianity is my choice, just as atheism is yours. We COULD argue significance of both our points, but they're just as valid as each other. Why? Because you put just as much faith in yourself and different things as I do in God. There's a need for answers in life and while some explain it with religion, some explain it with science, and some avoid explaining anything.

I mean, who's to say scientific findings two centuries from now will outdate everything you guys adhere to from science? You might claim people are only religious according to where they live, and what the religion of their region is, but aren't we just as limited to the scientific findings of our lifetime?

I also have trouble thinking that the latest scientific findings will bring about radical change in someone's life who desperately needs it. Christians are providing medical care around the world to primitive tribes or villages, and physically meeting material needs for those people make the spread of God's love real to those villagers. Telling them about evolution and natural selection are concepts not every third world country inhabitant can understand, but if God is the reason someone comes and helps them farm their land effectively, and offers medicine and how to have proper hygiene, then God is a tangible force through the people that serve Him.

These things are happening all over the world right now, but I keep hearing how poisonous religion is. Yes, it is true that nonreligious organizations do the same thing, but does that make the religious organizations null and void? No!

Crusading against religion is a futile effort, guys. Believe what you want, I'm sure it's an educated decision. But you run the risk of your beliefs causing the same condescension toward the religious as some of them have done to others.
shiningstar said on Aug 03, 2007....
SG: In my reality, my world, when one says that they have belief in their own selves,(which is a statement of high consciousness) they are on track.It is that power, that belief in Self that Jesus came to teach about and affirm for each and every person. No person can be whole until they believe in Self. Jesus took it a little further by saying that all people are gods and that they have the same ability as he does to create a reality of greater things for self. It is the teachings of Jehovah that has taught guilt, the consciousness of good-bad, right-wrong and self demeanment. His teachings take the power away from the Self and force others to do his will, his way not their own. After thousands of yrs of this people believe that they are "choosing" to believe in him and his ways. It is programming when anyone does not live their way but chooses to live anothers way, anothers will. They might as well never have lived at all for they never lived as they wanted to, did as they wanted to.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 03, 2007....
With all due respect, shining, there's little biblical support to anything you say about Jesus in regards to the power of Self.
shiningstar said on Aug 04, 2007....

Perhaps you find that so because you are so indoctrinated into believing that Jesus and Jehovah have all of the power because they are "special". When one stops believing that and reconciles ones self to the fact that all are one. The only difference is knowledge.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 06, 2007....
To be clear, I've made it a point NOT to be indoctrinated. My first Christian experience was in a church that had a dark side, that is, a closemindedness about how they were right, and any other Christian denomination was wrong...so wrong, in fact, that their salvation was in question. How ridiculous!

To me, the most important thing is to follow Jesus Christ, because that standard makes me more loving toward others. It also promises a reward in Heaven, and gives me a wonderful purpose in living life now. Most people in this life try to achieve those things with intellectual knowledge, success, wealth, and fame. And it never works. None of those things are bad in nature; you can be a Christian and have all those things. But if you have one or all of them in place of knowing God, that's when we start to shoot ourselves in the foot.

I've made an effort to understand your position, shining, and as much as I can grasp it, I don't agree with it. If you don't consider God or Jesus Christ "special" in any way, then you run the risk of missing the point of the entire known human knowledge of either of them. If God created us, and Jesus brought us salvation by giving up His life for us, then that makes them special in my book :)

I've heard of the saying "all are one." It was in the 1986 animated "Transformers" movie. Joking aside though, if there is spiritual or divine in everyone and everything, then we elevate everything from ourselves to a tree to a rock to the level of godliness, and that results in some pretty silly behavior. I'd say we're better off worshiping one loving, known God, than try to pursue a power of self. Why? Because ultimately we all have less-than-good desires or our hearts, and no power, spiritual or earthly, can remake a sinful heart except for God.
shiningstar said on Aug 07, 2007....
You are the believer that Jesus brought"salvation" not me. Jesus brought a teaching of how to be free of religion, blind following;Just what has always brought war and separation of people. He broke the laws of Jehovah because he knew that laws do not work.We have laws, religious and otherwise, stacked upon each other today, see how well they are working to take EVERYONES freedpm away? They are based on the Jehovah consciousness of power over others. Jesus taught that it is "as ye believe" and that the power is within you just as it is within the tiny mustard seed.Jesus would not have had to die if people would have turned away from the Jehovah teachings and embraced what he was teaching them. He was called a devil and cast out of the synagogue almost thrown over a cliff for his efforts to lead them out of ignorance. When they tried to make him King he told them that they only wanted him to be King so he could do things for them. In other words they did not want to do what he did and be able to do the miracles if they had to change their beliefs and their lives.If you want to show love and respect to Jesus live by his teachings and be all that you can be without looking for someone else to save you from what you have created.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 07, 2007....
Ha ha ha....I do live by His teachings. So what is the issue?

Jesus spoke very highly of God the Father, something one would pick up on in reading the Bible. He spoke as the Son of God, with all the authority and power that comes with it. If it is a question of His divinity, then yes, I follow that.

But God provided us the Bible so we don't go about lawlessly and hurt ourselves further. He gives us laws to protect ourselves from our own mistakes, and to protect ourselves from each other.

I believe you have learned and read a great deal, and you have been seeking truth, but I feel you have come to the wrong conclusions about the person of God and of Jesus Christ. Additionally, the power we have within is the Holy Spirit, which is a person of God, not a power we ourselves have.
StupidGenius said on Aug 08, 2007....

The fact is that people will believe what ever they want, faith in something invisible when evident in a single human being is considered maddness and they are treated for it. Faith in something invisible when evident in a large group of people is considered religion.

The one important situation that needs to change and soon is the relationship between religion and politics. Religion has no place in politics and should not be used to justify political decisions at any time.

SG
shiningstar said on Aug 08, 2007....

SG of course you are correct about separating religion from politics but my friend that has never happened and never will. Beliefs make up a person and religion is the core, the foundation on which most people stand upon and live their lives by. How do you separate one from their beliefs? You do not. Even the non believers mostly have the same consciousness of the believers. As long as people use what ever power that they have to stand over others, hurt them or harm them in any way, to disrespect them and demean them they walk in the consciousness of religion.When this turns around, as it soon will, our world will change and politics and religion as experienced today will no longer exist. People will take their communities back and become self sufficient and have local leaders who consider all and exchange ideas and places for the good of all.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 08, 2007....
SGenius, I have been opposed to using Jesus as a platform for conservative republicans, for example, for the same reason you do. There is simply too much at stake when a leader says, "God told me to do it," or, "We're going to take back this government for God!" Please.

Quick lesson: Judaism does not recognize the New Testament, or Jesus as Savior of the world. Why? Because they expect the Messiah to be a military and political power that will give them freedom. Thing is, Jesus DID NOT USE POLITICS. He reached people on a personal level, and offered a faith that would inspire others to live for God even when the political powers threatened them with torture and execution.

The point is, Jesus did not need to be a political power. He gave the world a Savior in Himself that transcended politics. And Judaism will continue to live with customs and traditions but little hope for the Messiah that already came but they rejected.

Just as Jesus didn't seek to overthrow or take over in the political arena of the Roman Empire, neither should Christians (or Muslims, or any other) try to become the majority in a political sense.

As far as religion, it is better to adhere to a holy text that holds you accountable and instructs and corrects, rather than make our own religion. If everyone believes in a different truth for themselves, it's much harder to relate and have community. Dang, I found that switching denominations was so controversial with the church I left, that it made me glad to be in a place that won't discriminate. But honestly, if I'm being whack, the Bible will point that out. Or my wife will. Or other people close to me. God works in all those things. But if you create your own reality, it might work for you, but you might end up beyond learning what really matters, and you may not know where you're going wrong until it's too late. I say all of that in regards to you, shining, because while I applaud your thoughts on unity, following the Bible would be better than your current beliefs on God and Jesus Christ.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 08, 2007....
Oh yeah SG, welcome back dude!
SeanRenaud said on Aug 08, 2007....

Hate to admit it. Shining is making sense. Religion defines who a person is in such a way that it effects many of their decisions. (Lid please don't take this personally, I don't mean you in particular and I'm about to make one of those sweeping generalizations) Bush is in office because of Christianity. Without the religious conservative base he wouldn't have gotten re-elected (it's unlikely he would have been elected in the first place but certain not re-elected).

ALIENated isn't unique in the fact that he would never vote democrat because of their social standing. Gay marriage, abortion, evolutionism>anything else a person does or doesn't stand for. And honestly there are so many things more important to running a country that those things should be tie breakers at not deal makers.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 08, 2007....
Thanks for the clarification, Renaud. Personally I did worse than vote for Bush out of religious or political reasons - I didn't vote at all. Of course, that's a long story in itself..let's just say I've registered to vote at least twice and never got my voter's card.

Anyhoo, I think that religious conviction shows strength in a leader, but with Bush it is taken to a stubborn, closeminded extreme. He isn't afraid to take a stand on something, and while I think that is one of the strengths that got him reelected, he doesn't quite know when to quit, or when to seek counsel and change strategy. That has led to horrible consequences such as America's image suffering, and terrorism being fanned by mishandling of the situation in the Middle East.

But Bush's personal religious faith is not what has caused a gigantic mess. It is what he has done with it. It is what ultra conservative, right wing Christians have done by trying to take over the government. But that is not the natural byproduct of faith in Jesus Christ. Ulimately such people are responsible for trying to make religion a political agenda - especially when the center of their faith, Jesus Christ, taught that faith actually transcends politics. Why make a mountain out of a molehill?

Religion should never take away a person's personality or judgment. While it may seem a contradiction, I consider my faith from a relationship with Jesus Christ, not observing holidays or attending church religiously or doing superspiritual things or following strict customs. I talk to God and ask for things I can't receive on my own power. Sometimes I underestimate what He's given me, and other times I've done my own thing and messed things up beyond my repair. I have faith in God because He has restored the things I have destroyed, including my own life and the relationship with my wife before we were married.

I haven't seen Bush do this, but it's very easy to be religious and do things, and then claim your supreme deity made you do it, or they told you to. That person has fallen for a lie. People justify everything from breaking up with a bf/gf to mass murder by saying, "God told me to do this." That is shirking your own responsibility.

So what's the difference between listening to God and doing good, or taking your faith to a political or personal extreme? Follow the Bible. Know what is true and what is a lie. That way you know the difference between a president initiating war and "crediting" God for it, and a president whose faith leads him to accept and love all others, even those who don't share his/her views. And lastly, it is possible to do that and still submit yourself to God. In fact, true compassion is harder without Him.
shiningstar said on Aug 08, 2007....
I believe that Bush would even get re-elected and I will try and explain this statement by tying it in with the Jehovah teaching of the "pecular"people that he created in the desert.That is a consciousness that is still with us. Religion teaches people to follow. It is all right to think of course but only if you think what they teach you to think. But when someone goes against the church or someone speaking against it or questioning the people rally around them to protect them regardless of who is making sense or not. Just like with Jesus. He never hurt anyone and healed both Jew and Gentile.He had no enemies and was loved by all except the religious leaders. Yet when they gave the call to bring him down the people rallied behind them and called for Jesus( a man they loved) to be crucified.So just like Bush, if he could run again or if someone like him runs, they would be elected because the people will react in fear of going against those relligious people who back him. They will never think what is good for America. They will go the way of their religion regardless if it makes sense or not. Peace
SeanRenaud said on Aug 08, 2007....

If you're right Gulliani will be President. If I'm right Hillary will.
shiningstar said on Aug 09, 2007....
As much as I would love to see a woman as the president I would not like to have it be Hillary. As many political years as she has had to do the will of the people and clean up the place she has not done so.I like Barrack but just like Ross Perot they will take him out or make him be ineffective.The same promises are made by every politician every day, every year, every where but who keeps them once they get in office? The good old boy system blocks anyone out who would really change the system. The money, the power is too good to give it up. About Hillary and our government read "The Trans-Formation of America". Find out what America really does and really is.Kathy O'Brian, the author, has travelled the world exposing a story that happened to she and her daughter and what really is happening in the white house. She has documented her story and has been refused to present it to a court "for reasons of national security". The court's words not hers. It is worse than anything I have ever read or heard about and it saddened my heart to think how far our government has gone into the ditch. Peace.
StupidGenius said on Aug 09, 2007....

The next president has already been decided, if you think your vote means anything then you are wrong. The next president will have been discussed and decided upon at the bilderburg meeting. No...no...no dont laugh, its a fact that all presidents were invited and attended the bildeburg meetings years before being elected to office. Check it out for yourself.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
You seem to be big on conspiracy theories, SG. You mentioned the 9/11 theory and now this one about presidential elections - are there others you're currently looking into?
SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....

So who is president SG?
lidstrom82 said on Aug 10, 2007....
Whoever figures out the system of election should be president, 'cause they beat the system and stuck it to The Man. So, I think that would be SG.
shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....
I totally agree SG. You are right on target. I do so wish that others would learn these things before the bars close totally on all of us.Peace
shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....
I totally agree SG. You are right on target. I do so wish that others would learn these things before the bars close totally on all of us.Peace
SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....

If these bars exist shining they not only closed on us 225 years ago but they freed us from a worse system where instead our leaders being chosen they were born.
StupidGenius said on Aug 11, 2007....

Do you realy think that the kings of industry who stand to lose trillions of dollars if the wrong man is elected would actualy let the people decide who rules the country? The president/priminister's are chosen. They are chosen once they have been bought and their future guranteed. They are bought with the vast wealth of the industrial architects and the elections are clearly rigged.

Please dont get me wrong and think that I am bothered if people dissagree with me when I make these statements. The evidence is their if you look close enough.

There is a very big difference between conspiracy theory and conspiracy fact. Why do you think that bush hasnt been impeached even though it is clear to anyone that he made mistakes that cost the lives of alot of people during 9/11.

Back to my original point though. Imagine for a second the ammounts of money that would be lossed if a president stopped private security companies performing duties in warzones (remember that the bush family actualy owned share in many of these companies before iraq was invaded), Imagine how much money would be lossed if a president made industries that pollute realy pay for there mistakes instead of covering it up. You dont need to believe it, just consider it.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 11, 2007....

I have considered it. Thing is that there have been large companies since the founding of this nation (East India Trading Company anybody?) and couple that with the fact that the Americans wanted to make George Washington King, why not just land the kill strike then and be done with it? I suppose you could argue that because Kingship goes down the line that it is actually more dangerous.

The famous industry kings of the 1920s, why would an amendment be passed in after that point limiting the number of times a president can be elected? If they have the ability to chose the president every four years why not leave the best man for the job there until a better plan came up?

If all of the rich people were teamed up why not just support one half of the system (one party) and let the rest wither and die? While I don't think that the rich have my best interests in line I believe that with most people it just happens naturally. I make more money I pay you more cus I've got more. This obviously isn't the fact with everybody but I believe it to be true more often than not. If they had their perfect world and took over they would be a lot richer than they are.

When did this start? If 50 years ago the richest men in the world united to choose who leads every nation don't you think the world would be a more peaceful place by now?

Your theory holds up to about a second graders ability to rationalize, after that it falls apart right quick.
StupidGenius said on Aug 11, 2007....

Sean, dont be so closed minded. I think it is more acurate to say that your view on this subject is the same a second graders knowlege of the world, limited at best.

Every year since 1954, a small network of rich and powerful people have held a discussion meeting about the state of the trans-Atlantic alliance and the problems facing Europe and the US. Hillary Clinton was present at the last meeting in 2006. Both Bill Clinton and Tony Blair attended before becoming President and Prime Minister. My personal pick for the next president... Hillary.

You need to remember that the people that run this group are most scared of are the likes of you and me. If the majority of people feel that they are being mislead or chain ganged into behaving in a certain way the revolution and a government being overthrown is very much on the cards. It is very important that secrecy be upheld and that any changes that happen, happen very slowly so as not to ignite suspicion.

Having one president for many many years is suspicious, having presidents that act in a very similar way with slight but key differences is not suspicious. You cant have a king because the people would not accept that, instead you have a line of people acting the same way. They are slowly eroding your rights.

Did you know for example that oil prices are discussed at these meeting as despite huge profits being achieved, it was discussed/decided that these prices should go up. Guess what.... They did. Profit levels need to remain unsuspicious as well, they cant just go out and make as much money as possible for that reason.

As i said, you dont need to believe me, I dont care if you dont. Research it in more detail sean.

SG
shiningstar said on Aug 11, 2007....
SG; for what it's worth I agree with you. SN; Please clarify your posts on "bars closing". I think my screen is losing what you said on the right side of it. Thanks.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 11, 2007....

Why would we reject it? There are plenty of people (myself included) who think that it is stupid that we can't keep the same president for as long as he can keep winning elections. I actually think that it is bad for us that every few years we are forced to get rid of somebody who might be good.

I've looked it up and it sounds like the same kind of crap that brings you the 9/11 demolition and the Jews staged the Holocaust so they could regain control of Jerusalem.

That said life in America isn't all that bad, certainly better than say the former USSR. If I found out today that the last 50 years of US history has been guided by a shadow government I'd just shrug and be happy I live in a country where we aren't starving, were we aren't suffering from disease, where one warlord after another isn't taking over. I do believe that the USA is the greatest country in the world and I honestly don't care how we got here cus maybe it couldn't be done any other way.
StupidGenius said on Aug 12, 2007....

I think you have dismissed 9/11 without realy looking at the evidence, after all sean me and you both argue our religious stance from a factual and probable angle. The evidence clearly points towards the truth not being allowed to out.

Did you realise that iron from the twin towers was sent directly to china for recycling without even being analysed, as a great country dont you think that you are quite capable of recycling your own iron and dont you think that such a massive "disaster" should have had every possible reason analysed. The architects and structural engineers that built the towers even stated on record that there was no way they should have colapsed the way they did from the impact that was recieved. Can you explain the pentagon crash, would a jumbo jet realy fit into the area your government said it did? there was no wreckage either. Firemen on the towers site clearly heard explosives being detonated and the buildings being brought down in a controlled manner.

You would be happy with the last 50 years? TYour happy that oil prices have been raised even though each year the oil companies make huge profits. You do have starvation and homelessness even though you are one of the richest countries in the world. Need I go into your government alowing people to die after Katrina?

There is no hard evidence linking Osama bin laden to 9/11 (statement made by CIA) but two wars have been waged in afganistan and Iraq on that basis.

When you have a president who cant be got rid of its called a dictatorship, name one dictatorship that actualy worked?

I could go on. The facts are clear but only to those who understand how they are linked.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 13, 2007....

1. Prove that the iron was sent to China without analysis.

2. There are plenty of engineers that that have gone on record saying that the towers would crash the way they did. There was wreckage in the photos as well, if you don't just choose cherry picked photos there is plenty of reckage.

3. Oil prices are lower than they should be. Fact is that gas prices have gone up VERY slowly in comparison to anything else. Look at electronics, movie tickets. If you want to argue that those are luxeries then look at food. Remember when a loaf of bread was a nickel? (I don't but I've seen the figures) By all rights gas should be more expensive. Besides the entire structure of capitalism is based on the sellers making money.

4. Most of the starving people we have are crazies who won't go to soup kitchens. I can't feel sorry for wackos. Katrina was a disaster, what nation hasn't screwed the pooch? Hell maybe if we weren't so damned worried about tsunami victims half across the globe we might be able to hand our own.

5. I'll grant you that there is a minimal amount of evidence against Osama. He only tried it before, is a well known terrorist and claimed credit for the attacks. (Course you're probably gonna bring up how that was the "fake" Osama who claimed cred but whatever.)

6. If we don't live in a democracy then two things are true. A. A democracy didn't work, it was easily enough bought out by rich men and became something else. B. We have a dictatorship that has been running, expanding and continuing to be a country that people to immigrate to (illegally if they have to) that has worked. So maybe dictatorships aren't doomed if inteligent people run them.

Though to be honest I just think that the Shadow Government is just a bunch of bullshit. People aren't trustworthy enough. The military, an organization known for brotherhood and sticking together couldn't even manage to hide that they were abusing the enemy. You really expect me to believe that for 50+ years the fate of the "free" world has been decided by a dozen people at a public meeting and nobody has figured it out?

Are the shuttle launches fake too? What about the holocaust?
StupidGenius said on Aug 13, 2007....

1. Iron was sent for recycling without analysis.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Jan/25776.htm

Most of the scrap will be recycled into ingots, but part of the relics will be mold-ed into WTC souvenirs, the paper said.
Baosteel officials reached by Shanghai Daily, however, denied they will make keepsakes out of the debris, but declined to give more details of their plans, saying only that the scrap will be melted down and reprocessed into new steel products.

The iron has not been analysed because the governent refused to treat the twin towers wreckage as a crime scene even though it was clearly a crime and not an accident.

2. Show me one picture of the pentagon with boing 747 wreckage.

3. Slow and steady rises in prices occure. You dont need telling that the oil companies make billions of profit every year. Of course they are supposed to make profit but being the most profitable of most industries means that price rises are not nessasary when we are talking about the ammount of profit involved.

"ExxonMobil's earnings announcement that profits rose 75 percent from last year followed a BP announcement of $6.5 billion in profits, up 34 percent and ConocoPhillips reporting its income grew to $3.8 billion, up 89 percent."

4. Most of the starving people are crazies?

"The 2002 survey of 25 cities by the US Conference of Mayors recorded a 19% increase in the requests for emergency food has risen by 19% in 2002. 100% of the cities reported these increases. Requests for food by families increased by 17% while requests for food by the elderly increased by 19%.
48% of people requesting food were families with children. 38% were currently employed at the time of the request."

5. The fact is that there is minimal evidence. How do you go to two wars based on minimal evidence?

6. You have a dictator who takes orders from a larger group. I dont believe all cponspiracy theories but I do buy into one backed up by facts.

The meeting I discussed is not public, it happens behined closed doors and involves the worlds most influential people. Many government secrets have been kept, some out some remain sectret. They are capable of killing peple who speak out and they have done it before. It normaly dosnt matter if it looks like he dies because of what he said, they are powerfull enough to cover it up.

I dont know enough about the holocaust or the shuttle launches. Just I believe in one theory dosnt make me automaticaly believe in another.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 13, 2007....

1. No it wasn't, even according to your source it was studied.

New York authorities' decision to ship the twin towers' scrap to recyclers has raised the anger of victims' families and some engineers who believe the massive girders should be further examined to help determine how the towers collapsed.
But New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg insisted there are better ways to study the tragedy of September 11. . .If you want to take a look at the construction methods and the design, that's in this day and age what computers do," said Bloomberg, a former engineering major. "Just looking at a piece of metal generally doesn't tell you anything."
So unless you can find somebody with equal or higher credentials than his then I see no inteligent reason not to take his word for it. I suppose he could be in on it, but really how many people are in on this again?
2.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6

3. Capitalism.   You charge as much as people are willing to pay for your service/good. Look at Jessica Alba or Micheal Vick. The only arguements that can be made against Big Oil is that can be made is that they might be fixing the prices amongst themselves (ie. Chevron and Exxon) have agreed to never under any circumstances let gas prices fall below X (say 2.50 a gallon) which eliminates competition and allows for greater profits for all. It is highly suspect that Post and General Mills did a similar thing with cereals but nobody can really prove it as it's a difficult thing to prove.

4. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm Unemployment is down to 4.6%. I have to question the decisions of anybody who has a job and no food. Those people aren't starving, there on welfare. Starving people you know, die. In order for that to happen in the US you have to REFUSE welfare and REFUSE food stamps. I didn't say there weren't hungry folks, I said if you are starving its most likely your own damned fault.

5. How much evidence do you require? I mean if the combined inteligence and admission of guilt of Osama and Al Qaeda aren't enough to go to war what is? We KNOW Saddam had weapons of Mass destruction, we just can't figure out what he did with them. We know because we sold them to him in the 80's to fight the Commies. WE equipped him. If he had nothing to hide why not let the Inspectors into whatever they wanted whenever they wanted? http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0712FF3B5C0C718CDDA90994DA404482&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fB%2fBlix%2c%20Hans

Don't get me wrong, we went into Iraq for the wrong reasons. The reason should have been quite simple. Saddam=Badman. We stop bad people because we are good people. End of disccussion.   Since it wasn't we entered this stupid moral quagmire, not to mention we shouldn't have touched Saddam until we had Osama. He was playing ball (kinda) and that should have been enough just like it's enough that Fidel plays balls.

6. No it doesn't. But if you are gullible to believe one it increases the chances that you believe another. PEople who believe 9/11 was faked are more likely to believe that the Holocause was faked. (These tend to be anti-semites who believe that the Elder Zions have been the ones shaping all of history for the last 500 or so years.)   People believe in the Shadow Government that has plans to kill all but 1 million people. That the Illuminati is the real power behind all world leaders. So on and so forth.

Just because the government said something doesn't make it true, but there is too much evidence supporting the accepted theory of 9/11 to ignore. Now if you want to claim that Bush and Osama had some kind of agreement to deal then while I still think you're off base, you're atleast adhering to the facts that have been presented.
StupidGenius said on Aug 14, 2007....

1. They should have been further examined. They were not. Why?

2. That picture shows no wreckage, there should have been fusalarge, wings, tail, engines etc... some of it would have exploded but a whole plane dosnt just dissapear. They say the whole was the result of the landing gear... so where is the rest of the plane then.

3. Fine, charge what you want, no problem. The only reason they are not challenged is because they fund the presidency. Not because people dont protest. Bildeburg is a meeting of the shadow governement. It dictates policy and change and not for the better, you only have to look around you. You pay way to much in taxes, you pay way to much for health care, you pay way over the odds for food, water, gas, electric, oil. The rich get richer my friend. Is that ok by you?

4 It makes sense that the government wants you to work, then they can tax you, make you pay for health care and other essentials. Have you ever tried to live on a minimum wage, I have. Paying your gas, electric, council taxt, rent, food etc is not cheap and the cost of living rises every year. Dont claim that people just cant be bothered to accept help, help is not that easy to get even in america... A certain hurricane proved that fact.

5. Quote from Hans Blix "Mr. President, we now have an inspection apparatus that permits us to send multiple inspections teams every day all over Iraq by road or by air. Let me end by simply noting that that capability, which has been built up in a short time and which is now operating, is at the disposal of the Security Council."

Dont you think that with this capability they would know if biological weapons were present in Iraq, the government had no proof of WMD, they had no proof that Al-Quida were opperating in Iraq therfore no basis for war. If they wanted rid of sadam then they should have done it during the Golf War.

6. You are blind, you believe everything your government tells you when they have commited crimes which are well know throughout the world. They have lied in the past on many thousands of occasions yet you chose to believe them. I feel sorry for you. Believing in facts is normaly what you stand by.

If you accept that the government lies, then you can accept that people that speak on behalf of the government lie because they are employed by the government. That adds a lot of doubt to your claimed "Facts" supporting the official story.

SG
StupidGenius said on Aug 14, 2007....

What reason do all the specialists who claimed a conspiracy have for doing so?

It dosnt further their career, if the facts laid down by the official story were actualy good and strong then the specialists claiming otherwise would simply damage their careers while the ones working for the governemtn simply pick up another pay cheque. The government employed/contracted ones have nothing to lose the theorists do.

1min long, bush says he saw the first plane go into the towers, the first plane hitting was not televised, he also makes a very very disrespectfull remark about a bad pilot. You realy believe he wasnt behined this?

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 14, 2007....

1. Who are you to say they should have been further examined? That's really what this comes down to is who the fuck are you? A plane hit a building (or that is the belief) looking at the metal wouldn't tell you much about you know the high jacker. Someone who majored in engineering thought they had done enough.   This is the same as if people were still asking for autopsies on the 9/11 victims. I mean maybe they died of abestos or heart attacks.

2. Uh yeah it does show bits of plane. How much plane should be on the lawn anyway? The plane went INTO the building, it didn't land on the lawn and fire missles.

3. People really don't complain, we aren't boycotting. Hell we don't even carpool for crying out loud. We're bitching to hear ourselves bitch and I'll believe otherwise when I see people actually start to change their driving habits to avoid high gas prices. I won't shop at Wal-Mart because I think their evil.

How do you know we pay too much in taxes? How much money does it take to run a country this size? Have you looked at the budget, balanced it yourself? By what logic do you say our taxes are too high? It would seem that they are too low as we watch social service after social service shut down because of overburden. Not just in the US but in the UK. Now I accept that both of these countries are in on the supposed conspiracy.

Lets say that they are in on the conspiracy, the whole of Europe and the US and maybe Canada.   The problem then becomes what do you compare our system to? Mexico? China? Japan? Saudi Arabia? By what comparison is our taxes to high? You need facts to back up this belief.

Yes it's fine that the rich get richer, should we try to keep it from getting out of control? Yeah. But really it comes down to are you going to punish the people who feed you for feeding you?

4. A hurricane. You're belief that our welfare system is inept is based on a natural disaster? Seriously shut the fuck up.

I didn't say that living at minimum wage was easy (the fuck is a council tax?) I said it was possible. You live in a rat trap, you eat cup o noodles and occasionally spoil yourself with fresh fruit. You don't have a tv but you don't starve. The fact of the matter is that if you can't get work that isn't minimum wage you have no bussiness living on your own and need to find yourself a room mate.

5. Who said biological weapons? WMD's are weapons that can kill large numbers of people. A scud (which Saddam not only had, HE FIRED THEM, AT ME during the war) is a WMD. Now the war was started under the presumption he had something worse. Maybe he destroyed it, maybe he got it out of the country. Hell maybe he was a fucking idiot and instead of letting us have open investigations and looking stupid cus we didn't find anything he instead kept bluffing until we bitch slapped him.

They should have done it during the Gulf War. Thing was that somebody back then had the foresight (or atleast the suspicion) that Saddam was the glue that held Iraq back from utter chaos.

Al-Qaeda and Saddam were pretty well documented enemies. Saddam being rather secular didn't jive well with fundamentalists. A lack of Al-Qaeda wouldn't have anything to do with the morality of the war.

6. No actually I don't.   I knwo our government has lied, some of it was for our own good (look at Barak Obama, if you tell US citizens the truth they won't vote for you. THEY WANT TO BE LIED TO.) Some of it was for no good reason, some of them are just for their own petty and stupid reasons. The thing is that you don't believe anything your government tells you.

It's like for you the government said we landed on the moon. Must have been in Hollywood. 9/11 was done by terrorists. Must have been the government. J.F.K. was assassinated, must have been because he wouldn't play well with the Shadow Government. The Pope said something negative about Islam, must have been a plot to get the last remaining free peoples into an open war. Hitler killed Jews. Must have been a government plot to reinstate Isreal and kick start the end of the world.

Once again I challenge you to name a country, that isn't under this "evil" shadow government that has a standard of living that rivals the western world? If you can't then maybe the Shadow Government is the best thing to happen to us cus nothing else works.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 14, 2007....

That Bush is, you know. An idiot. Three months later, stressful couple of days, he makes a mistake on when he saw some video? Granted this would be damning, if everything else were wrong but it isn't.

The part that makes this most obvious though is that the Shadow Government has managed (in your version, some believe it traces all the way back to the Romans or before) to exist largely unnoticed and un documented for the last 60 years. Then they make glaring and stupid mistakes? If they got to choose the President why would they put somebody so mentally deficient in such a vital position during the the BIGGEST cover up in history?

Why would you be able to find out about the bildberg meeting and where it's going to be held? Idiot drug dealers are better at covering their trails and having good bussiness fronts than that?

Is Bush a mad genious who is mentally capable of holding together all of the peices required for this conspiracy AND also an idiot who manages to stumble in every way possible? Oh wait he's pretending to be stupid so nobody will realize he's actually Lex Luthor.

The scary part is that people are starting to agree with you and we are gonna find ourselves in a goddamn civil war in a few years.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 14, 2007....

That Bush is, you know. An idiot. Three months later, stressful couple of days, he makes a mistake on when he saw some video? Granted this would be damning, if everything else were wrong but it isn't.

The part that makes this most obvious though is that the Shadow Government has managed (in your version, some believe it traces all the way back to the Romans or before) to exist largely unnoticed and un documented for the last 60 years. Then they make glaring and stupid mistakes? If they got to choose the President why would they put somebody so mentally deficient in such a vital position during the the BIGGEST cover up in history?

Why would you be able to find out about the bildberg meeting and where it's going to be held? Idiot drug dealers are better at covering their trails and having good bussiness fronts than that?

Is Bush a mad genious who is mentally capable of holding together all of the peices required for this conspiracy AND also an idiot who manages to stumble in every way possible? Oh wait he's pretending to be stupid so nobody will realize he's actually Lex Luthor.

The scary part is that people are starting to agree with you and we are gonna find ourselves in a goddamn civil war in a few years.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 14, 2007....
Whoa guys, you can agree on matters concerning religion but now the abrasiveness of both views are turned against each other concerning conspiracies? By your own words, SG and Renaud, you explain to the letter what the Bible says about what people fall prey to without God. Even apart from all that, you guys can afford to keep the claws in.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 14, 2007....

I keep claws in when dealing with you lidstrom because you are by the large an intelligent person on most subjects. I do the same for bloc or Silver. Stupid is great when he agrees with me, but like ALIEN or Cops I feel little need to keep my claws sheathed when dealing with him.

Certain ideas need to be put down violently. Speaking to somebody who believes that there is a street called Seasame Street and a de-tusked wolly mammoth, a seven foot tall talking bird, a monster who eats large quantities baked goods should not be spoken to as if their opinions and thoughts are valid.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....
Dude, you just ruined my childhood. :)

My point is to keep the claws in at all times out of respect for another person, even if they don't deserve it. That does NOT mean tolerating and agreeing with everything they say (where are some whacked out beliefs), but presenting them with a better alternative in a loving manner.

I admit it's not easy. For instance, most of what shining says doesn't come from the Bible or any other document for that matter, and for all intents and purposes, shining could be making all this up on the fly. Some of Christianity may seem far fetched, true, but at least it's consistent in a virtually unchanged Bible over centuries. There's a starting point you can check with and keep beliefs grounded within a healthy range of teaching, and protects us from bad behavior or spiritual matters that aren't from God.

Some of the stuff I read here absolutely drives me up a wall, but while I can speak the truth in love, I can still firmly point out the flaws in all sorts of belief systems without degrading their status as a human being. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, Renaud...but it's tempting to put the hammer down on people sometimes.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 15, 2007....

Not all people are worthy of respect. When you show respect for people who don't deserve it you give them power. Ideas and beliefs can be very dangerous not only to the individual but to those around them. Look at scientology, or the people starving under Communist rule, or religious persecution or religion vs various medical advances or racism.

It's like guilt by association except instead of you becoming dirty by associating with filth, the filth gains credibility by association with you.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 15, 2007....
Hmm yeah, I feel ya, dawg.

Again, I think you're talking of tolerance for everything, even stuff that doesn't have any value or truth to it. I don't agree with that, either.

What I'm saying is that you can still respect a person, but absolutely hate the crappy stuff they believe. I have more reason to denounce crappy beliefs than you do, in a way, because the Bible says honestly what is wishy washy and what is a good foundation for living life. I don't want persuasive people saying theologically stupid things (that's a technical term) and have people think it makes sense. Hitler was persuasive, but did that make him right? No way!

Thanks for pointing out that giving someone too much respect is like giving them the leash attached to your collar. That's why it's so important to defend truth. But in the midst of defending the truth, we can be civil to those who oppose it. SGenius' views may not easily warrant respect, but as a person we're called to love and respect them as we would ourselves.
StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

Bush is purly the front man, People are slowly wising up to him. even his most staunch supporters cant deny what an idiont he realy is. The shadow government only need people that can simply act as puppets and bush is quite capable of doing that and not much else. He is the man they chose to start the wars, he is the man because he is linked to how his father was and as such looks to many like the right man to lead a country into war (or he was thought at the beggining to be the right man.)

The government is proven to make mistakes but the realy important stuff only gets de-classified after years. People dont bother to read the de-classified documents, if they did they would say "So thats why that happened!!!".

I dont care if you respect my views or not, I speak from a basis of research and fact. You tow the official line, being led up the garden path by your government. You are happy to point out faults in the bible and innacuracies but not so happy when the faults are pointed out with your government.

Open your eyes Sean.

SG
SeanRenaud said on Aug 15, 2007....

SGenius' views may not easily warrant respect, but as a person we're called to love and respect them as we would ourselves.

SG is on his own in a few ways that make him unique, there is nobody else he makes look bad. I don't respect his ideas, and most of them I slapped down with facts and logic. Thing is I'm being rough with him cus I enjoy it, when he's on myside which oddly enough seems to be more often than not I support him just as vigorously.

Now Shiningstar on the other hand is a problem. More so for you and all other Christians who should be banging down his door saying that's not what the teachings say. Look at his readership, it's steadily growing and as a Christian you should with how ideas spread and how dangerous it can be when a religion gets hijacked by people twisting the word to their favor. How many of those problems could have been (and probably have been) avoided because good men spoke out early. I'm not really certain you can respect and love an individual (in a meaningful way) without giving credence to their beliefs which is my point. Though the basic concept of Christian love (IMHO) is counteractive to real love. How exactly are you supposed to love (in the traditional sense) your family, your parents, your children, your wife when you are just loving everybody? I suppose you can rationalize that the Bible said love your enemy as you love yourself with an already accepted proviso that you love your family more than you love yourself. Though I strongly doubt that. When I hear (I'll see if I can dig it up it was recent) that spending to much time with your daughter is bad because it takes away from your time with God I get frightened of what they are capable of. I don't have a child of my own, but assuming it wasn't cutting into my ability to care for my child I can scarcely imagine what too much time with my child is.
StupidGenius said on Aug 15, 2007....

Sean, my face dosnt have the mark of your logic on it so I can only assume that you dreamed that happening. I support many of your views but maybe when you gradualy start to notice government change that you dont understand you will look into it. Im just trying to give you a nudge in the right direction. Re-evaluate your "facts". If a civil war even looks close to being imminent then the patriot act will spring into full effect. It is already being used wrongly against normal americans. The government is ready for an up-rising.

SG
shiningstar said on Aug 21, 2007....
SR; Perhaps you should entertain the idea of opening a dictionary and reading the definition of love. And I am not a "he". I am a 67 yr old decidedly "she" with two great grand children. I believe that to solve the problems we find troubling us in our world today we have to find the roots of what caused it. My teaching is that Jesus came to free us and his lesson of love is part of it. I realize that you do not understand but exactly how many moments have you given to trying to understand? This is not about right-wrong, good-bad. It is about solving the problems facing America and our world. It is knowledge that we need my friend. Every day we need to unlearn what relgion and government has so fervently endeavored to teach us. Which is how to rely on them and be un-free.Peace
SeanRenaud said on Aug 21, 2007....

The thing is SG it isn't. Ready for a civil war. Look at nearly ever civil war or revolution in history. Despite horrific conditions of taxation without representation, slavery, breaking away from the union whatever you want to attest the Civil War to, mass starvation and what not there were still vast majorities of people who didn't want the war. Most historians estimate nearly 1/3 of Americans didn't participate on either side of the Revolutionary war. Many in the US just went west to avoid the Civil War all together. Russia and Germany failed to break into civil wars and Russia had some odd 50 years of starvation before collapsing.

Things would need to get ALOT worse before the average man would be willing to break out into a civil war. And that's if George Bush came out tommorow and said admitted to everything you've just said and then added on that the World Wars were a hoax staged soley to jump start technology to the point of getting us into outerspace for intergalatic colonization.

The average man cares about taking care of his family. Food on the table, shelter, relative comfort. All of these things Americans and Europeans have by the truck load. Even if everything you claim is true we are decades (if things continue at this pace, which they likely wont once Bush is gone) from a revolution.

@Shining: I'm well aware that you are actually female, in the English language the pronoun he can be used in the genderless. Because of our patriarchal history all things are male until specifically designated otherwise. Your name is rather genderless and he has one less charachter than she, hense I refer to you as a he. I did look up your book.

We do need to seek knowledge, the thing is that it won't come from Jesus. You are trying to turn their tool against them and it cannot be done. Not any more than you could explain how Frodo came to free us of the old Gods by destroying the One Ring. It simply doesn't work that way. The truth is in us, everything EVERYTHING Jesus said must be left behind with the rest of this religous nonsense if we ever want to get better.

You are right about one thing there though, we need to find the roots of the problems if we wish to solve them.

Maybe you shouldn't be so anti-government though, ours isn't so bad on paper. It's really the execution of the plan that is flawed.

said 2 minutes ago....
SR; Perhaps you should entertain the idea of opening a dictionary and reading the definition of love. And I am not a "he". I am a 67 yr old decidedly "she" with two great grand children. I believe that to solve the problems we find troubling us in our world today we have to find the roots of what caused it. My teaching is that Jesus came to free us and his lesson of love is part of it. I realize that you do not understand but exactly how many moments have you given to trying to understand? This is not about right-wrong, good-bad. It is about solving the problems facing America and our world. It is knowledge that we need my friend. Every day we need to unlearn what relgion and government has so fervently endeavored to teach us. Which is how to rely on them and be un-free.Peace

lidstrom82 said on Aug 21, 2007....
On that note, I'm bowing out of this directionless post. SG, you and Renaud are tight, though half the time you don't talk like it.

Renaud, loving as Christ did is NOT counteractive. You love God mainly by loving others. So you can spend all the time with your daughter as you want - your life lived for God is also led by example. 5 minutes, half an hour of quiet time praying to God is not going to ruin your child - neglect will. Jesus is truth - all else IS religious nonsense.

I think where I differ with you the most, shining, is the role of Jehovah/God in all this. From what you said, God created Jehovah. However, to Jews and Christians Jehovah IS God. How do you come to a different conclusion?

You bring up a good point, Renaud, about the increasing audience of someone teaching all sorts of things. It's not fun that Scientology is a household word just because of Tom Cruise. As Christians, we share the Gospel to bring hope, not to assimilate people into the collective (though some try that approach, too). The Bible will say that you must forgive a person as often as there's need of it. It also says to love one another as Christ loves us - to the point of giving up your life for another - a soldier can relate very well to that. It absolutely sucks that many teachers out there teach the wrong thing, and teach it in a destructive way. But in the end, each person is responsible for what they believe. So even if all sorts of people read shining and think Jehovah is a bully, when really it's God they blame, then to all those people, the bible is a closed book. But though I can do my part, I'm not responsible for what they choose to believe. They are.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. A simple idea, taken completely wrong by flawed, imperfect human brains. Respecting your Creator puts everything in perspective; you don't fear much when God is your strength, even death. Hang on to philosophies, evolution, or other teachings of man that change every few centuries or so, but I'm sticking to the unchanging Word of God.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 22, 2007....
a soldier can relate very well to that.

What? If you can find me a soldier who forgives his enemy and lays down his life for those shooting at him I'll be damned impressed.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 22, 2007....
What I meant Renaud, was a soldier giving up their lives for the freedom of their countrymen.

Christians have laid down their lives for their enemies throughout history, bro. On the battlefield? I simply don't know. In torture and persecution? Yeah...the best example is Jesus.
SeanRenaud said on Aug 22, 2007....

But giving up your life for your country and countrymen as a patriot (as most soldiers are) is giving up you're life for something/someone you love. It is entirely different from giving up life for your enemie. It is easy to love those who love you.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 22, 2007....
You're completely right...it's impossible to give up your lives for your enemies unless you do love them. And it is possible. Jesus loved the men who nailed Him to the Cross - He knew He was dying to open up salvation for them, as they spit in His face, stuck a crown of thorns in His head, and mocked Him, among other things. So in order to love enemies, there also has to be a purpose.

It's not unheard of for Christians throughout history, in other countries (Vietnam, Cambodia, Soviet Russia, China, etc.), being arrested and tortured for their faith, and eventually leading some of their captors to Christ. It was a hard lesson for some, but they realized that they loved and took pity on hateful people who tried to maim, brainwash, and break them - they knew that their captors had little other sources of respect and compassion given to them - why else would they delight in inflicting pain on others? With that understanding came the reason why they could love their enemies - because their enemies lacked compassion and desperately needed it for their own lives.

To love one's enemies goes against normal human nature. That's why I believe Christianity is the truth - the power of God is available to anyone who seeks it, and that power gives us strength to love someone more than we ever thought we could. That's what I love about being a follower of Christ - it is not power of brute force or oppression - it's a power of filling gaps in a person's soul, restoring the human heart, lifting people that are down and out, transforming people who take pleasure in angering and hurting others...taking the worst of us, and making it new, loving, and peaceful.
shiningstar said on Aug 22, 2007....
82 Believe me, I do understand what you say and what you believe as once I was very much in harmony with you. I do not try to offend anyone with my beliefs or my posts. I simply state my beliefs. If they were easy to understand the world would not have waited 2,000 years for it's revelation. I ask only that people ask for truth regardless of where it comes from and a mind that is open enough to receive it.---SR-- Your education, whatever it is, gets in the way of any learning for you. You intellectualize truth to death.It is said and it is taught that the Lemurians destroyed the world because of their great intellect. They had no compassion and could not understand anyone else's point of view except their own. They valued no one unless they too had a great intellect and used it. But feeling was left out and feeling is what this world is all about. Try and feel your way to a greater truth my friend and perhaps you can enlarge your world. Peace.
lidstrom82 said on Aug 22, 2007....
May I ask what happened to change your views from the time when our beliefs were very much in harmony?
StupidGenius said on Aug 23, 2007....
http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/84558/CREATIONISM-VS-EVOLUTION
lidstrom82 said on Aug 23, 2007....
lol, nice plug for your blog, SG :)
shiningstar said on Aug 28, 2007....
The orginal post has been sidetracked. I would like to return to it. It poses the question of the problems with the Bible. I think that the same question might be asked of the Koran or any other religious book. Some use the words and teachings to help each other and some use them to kill each other. Everyone has a different perception. I wonder if this is what Jesus meant when he said that we are to have a sure foundation that will not wash away like sand. After all if the foundation was concrete in a steady belief it could not be used as a two edged sword.Peace
lidstrom82 said on Aug 28, 2007....
I think I understand your view, shining - some parts of the Bible aren't as clear as we'd like them to be sometimes, it appears to contradict itself sometimes, and at other times its words can seem to justify brutality in many forms.

As someone who has experienced hypocrisy and judgmentality in the Christian church, I would urge you to not take those same things you experienced in your life and possibly seek to discredit the Bible. That may not be your actual goal, but a post entitled "The Problem With The Bible" goes a long way toward it, don't you think? People who fed you judgmental junk in your life do not make ALL religion bad, though I believe Christianity is the only true faith. And the Word of God, and God Himself, aren't to blame for the people who gave you a bad example of what faith really is.
shiningstar said on Aug 30, 2007....
No one gave me a "bad" experience 82. I pursue things that makesense using logic and reason. All of my life I wanted to know why Jesus , a man who came to teach and live love and forgiveness, was used to create hate and war. I found my answers and share them on my posts. What I discovered is not what you believe and I respect all others views. But what I discovered belongs to me. I discovered it. I earned it. I worked for it. I can not give it away as it is with your truth. Peace
lidstrom82 said on Aug 30, 2007....
If you truly respect all others views, "the problem with the bible" is probably not a good place to start. From previous posts and comments you've made, there is ample reason to suggest something soured you to Christianity - that something bad, or the absence of good, led you to strike out on your own and find a different truth. I say that because there's bitterness in your words concerning growing up in the Bible Belt, and while your truth works for you right now, there is little that will bring peace to others without showing them a solid standard to live by. If we create our own inner truth, what's to keep us from hurting others if our truth is, well, wrong?
shiningstar said on Sep 01, 2007....
That is your truth which I suppose you impose on everyone that does not believe as you do. But since I believe that Jesus did not believe as you do either and he allows you to continue as does Divine Intelligence who am I to say differently? All life is based on personal experience and beliefs. If you have sex you cannot run next door and ask the neighbor"how did that feel? It is what you felt that makes it real and what makes it important. There is nothing in life that is not personal. My I AM cannot be given away or shared. There is only room for one I AM and like other things not mentioned here it is said that every one has one of them. I am applies only to the one saying it for it cannot be said for another. Your experience is yours and mine belongs to me. Peace.
lidstrom82 said on Sep 04, 2007....
According to the Bible, your truth will fail, shiningstar, because it's not really truth at all. If what you believe puts you above learning anything from me or someone else, then arguably it's you who has had religion imposed upon you.
shiningstar said on Sep 04, 2007....
According to your Bible and your god Jehovah none has ever pleased him nor will they ever do so. Including you, my friend. You do not know the one you worship. You only read one book with all of the many available. That is no difference from those who read the Koran and only read their one book. There is no difference between any of you. But life, my friend, is not lived from a book. No book holds all of the experiences that 6 billion people live and face each day. No book holds their answers for life is personal, close-up and real on a moment by moment basis. Jehovah limited life to just his words when it is yours that are important.If any of the animals decided to create a god over them and worship it they would be in the same shape that this world is in because it does not, will not work.Peace
lidstrom82 said on Sep 04, 2007....
I stand by what I originally said, because you give me no reason to believe otherwise than this: you've chosen a path that rules out the Bible, and it's left you open to all sorts of spiritual beliefs that simply aren't the truth. If you believe Jehovah is the God of the Bible and is a malevolent force, there's nothing I can do to change that. The Bible's a closed book to you and you, being an intelligent person on a search for truth, have made your decision. I respect your search for spirituality, but I do not agree with it, and I persist so that you would take the Bible at face value. It doesn't matter if it's "just one book" if it gives us everything needed to bless others, to be saved, and especially, if it's the Word of God.
shiningstar said on Sep 04, 2007....
But, my friend it has given us neither of those things. It has given us war after war after war. It has taken our children every generation to sacrafice to this god of war. It creates separation of people everywhere it has ever been taken and destroys all elements of any natural form of life. It is not, nor has it ever "blessed" others. It condems all just as you do. It's "word" changes and tricks the people. It is not a sure foundation to stand upon for it, indeed, shifts like the grains of sand under every rock until the rock is no more. I do not live so you can agree with me. I agree with me and that is all I need or anyone else. Let us return to freedom not the oppression of any man's religion. Peace.
shiningstar said on Sep 09, 2007....
Unfortunately, as long as the people see and think that what their chosen god does is "good" regardless of what it is they do, the world will get no relief from war, pain or suffering. Science discovers a principle and uses that principle to create from. The principle never changes but always produces the same results. That is what makes it a science.The principle of that which is defined and seen as "good" produces good regardless of who uses it or where it is used. It is a science and it does not vary. When we cross good with bad by calling the bad good we create confusion and that is what is done with religion. When we can call a spade a spade and recognize that a Creator God loves it's creations and woould never and has never defiled them, punished them or murdered them then we can begin to grow and separate the truth from fiction and build on a new foundation of true love and knowledge.Peace
lidstrom82 said on Sep 10, 2007....
I see your point, shining, but what if mankind has done enough evil to warrant being punished by God? Sure God looks like the bad guy if He allows destruction of human beings, but that is the wrong way to look at it for two reasons: 1), are we looking at what those people did to warrant destruction that God allowed? And 2), don't our parents look just as bad to us when they punished us as children? God disciplines the whole earth more justly than the average parent would. Who are we to decide He crossed the line?

The Bible explains this very clearly. God is the potter, and we are the clay. If He fashions us into a pot to hold flowers, but we want to water the grass outside, it's kind of silly for us to claim we know better than the potter as to what we should be doing.

The confusion is actually borne from assuming God is malevolent, or a bully. We get nowhere with that belief. You'll find that God never destroyed human lives unless their actions deserved that punishment. Any parents out there reading this knows - if you don't teach your children right or wrong, anything goes. if they do not learn to take responsibility for their actions, they will have trouble submitting to authority from you, their parent...and at school, or with the law, and so on. Confusion can come when we don't have a clear picture of right and wrong to guide us.

That's exactly why God gave us the Bible, to line up our life experiences with it and know what is right and wrong. When we get away from that, we have no reason to love our enemies, we have little incentive to get outside our comfort zone to feed the homeless, we try to be good people without knowing what "good" means - how many good things must we do before we're considered good people? No one knows for sure, we just like to think we're good people at heart. With God, you know exactly where you stand. And that clarity is good instruction for our lives. More importantly, God is a father to those who have no father, or no parents to guide them. Being a loving creator and father to mankind is the truth - seeking power anywhere else is the fiction.
shiningstar said on Sep 11, 2007....

I understand your beliefs, my friend, as most religious people would agree with you because that is what they have been taught. I will put this in a different perspective and see where you are with it. Let us say that you are a parent with children. What do you want for them? Would you not do everything that you could to take care of them and make them happy? Would you teach them that they must do as you say and never deviate from it because you will kill them if they do?Would you take away all of their choices and write a book for them that only tells them of YOUR choices and how they must follow your choices and yours only or they are breaking one of your laws for which they can be killed for so doing? Do you not know that each child must explore life on their own and each will find something different? And each will be correct for their own selves? For what works for one may kill another because life is personal and individual. Confining people is equal to being a prisoner. It does not matter how one beame a prisoner. It only matters that that is where they are at now. Peace
lidstrom82 said on Sep 11, 2007....
You would certainly discipline a child for wrongdoing, and at times God does seem harsh. However, you must consider what the offenders did. It is well spoken of in the Bible what they did - worshiped other gods or themselves, were arrogant toward God, reveled in sin, and led others to do those things too. Consider that they were old enough to decide for themselves who to serve and worship.

Remember that parents can only go so far to punish a responsible child before the law comes into play. God is not only our Father, but He is also judge of us all. He has that right if He created us, which is miraculous in itself (that is, we can't do create life from scratch). God will punish those who warrant punishment. Those who obey Him don't have to fear restrictions or imprisonment or a negative judgment. Shining, I've seen people blast all the "rules" of God because it's "restrictive" and "no fun" and "being a slave to it," but I've also seen them be a slave to anger, lust, cursing, lying, gossip, mean-spiritedness, cynicism, and emptiness, among other things. It really depends on whether someone wants to be a servant to God and to others (as Jesus said in the verses I quoted to you earlier in another post), or be a servant of yourself and what sounds good to you. Both sound good in different ways, and I've lived both, but living for God has been far more rewarding for me. Remember, the Bible contains all the authority of God - it also denounces all the religious, pious people who have done evil with it. Does that make sense? If someone denounces me for believing something different than their Christian church, and it's for reasons that the Bible doesn't support, I can dismiss their claims because God has exposed their lies.

I think in the end, I've seen lots of negative effects of religion, much as you might have, but what steadies me is a faith in a constant, unchanging God, and His longstanding Bible. It anchors what I believe and holds me accountable - not every religion can say that - they can make up whatever they want and justify it without having to answer to anyone. That can easily lead to rebellion.

I don't have to fear God's punishment because I obey Him, and it's the same as everyone else. You never have to worry about punishment if you do the right thing. I think that's the controversy underneath the surface for many people - they don't want to believe in God because if they do, it means their lifestyle needs some major work in some areas. Again, all that spite and confusion is remedied by simply doing what you're supposed to, and I believe that is to worship God and love all people as He commanded, and as Jesus also explained.
shiningstar said on Sep 14, 2007....
Every parent that I know wants a better life for their child than their parents were able to give to them. They wanted their children to be self sufficient , able to take care of themselves without having to depend on the parents for their care. Jehovah created the opposite. he created un-natural life where he was above everyone and all must live by his word, his rule and never learn for themselves and live for themselves. A concept that does not work for humanity nor will it work anywhere in nature.
StupidGenius said on Sep 16, 2007....

People are gulible. People are taken in by people that are convincing when they speak. That is why people even to this day speak as if jesus, jehova etc were actualy real people. Existance without proof = non existance.

SG
shiningstar said on Sep 16, 2007....
Well , of course, I believe that they did and do exist. That is my personal belief that I share but push on no one. I began with the Bible, being raised a Christian, and was taught to love a man called Jesus. I coould never see a connection between Jesus and Jehovah(the old war-god from the Old Testament) that could make them one and the same. I persued knowledge as to why this was being taught by religious experts. My teachers say that they existed and I believe them. But,tome,since the world is controlled by religion I wanted to understand why no one wanted knowledge or wanted to do the things that were necessary to end the pollution of the planet and the wars, among many other things. It does not matter who believes what to me.It matters not who lived or not. It only matters why people do what they do to destroy themelves and their planet and why they do not stop it. I found my answers to this but there are many others who have found different answers that work for them and I honor their answers too.Peace
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

Your belief is based on blind faith. Blind faith is blind because you have no evidence to support your belief. ergo you faith is misplaced as their is nothing to support it. You need to look after yourself and stop trying to please or keep happy something that dosnt exist.

YOU control your own destiny, your life is what you make of it.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
Everything you just said makes sense, SG. It really does. It's worldly wisdom.
Worldly wisdom didn't keep me from depression and mental illness, and I know I'm not alone in experiencing troubles that science can't help with, especially matters of emotion and the soul. I know you don't ascribe to human beings having a "soul", and that's fine. But what I am simply saying is that there is a wisdom greater than what we know, and it's all in the Bible, which has remained unchanged for centuries.
It's not rigid or closeminded - it's an anchor. It debunks every mysterious, untrue, or whimsical religious belief out there. One who reads the Bible thoroughly finds it's not a murky text - the real question is whether a person believes it or not. SG, many don't believe in the Bible simply because they find it too hard to go by, not realizing that God honors our decisions to serve Him. We can't serve God alone, and we're not meant to. He gives us Jesus Christ as a life to live by and follow, and gives us His presence in us to know what is of God and what isn't. Someone who has never experienced it will never understand if they only hold to worldly wisdom. You are content with it, but my final point is that you can't knock wisdom that you don't understand.
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

You could have dealt with your hardships in any manner of ways. I have known hardship and despair but I dealt with it a different way. You relied upon a non existant being to help you and I stood up and took responsibility and realised that he hardship was of my own making and something which i needed to deal with in a responsible manner.

A popular claim of Christians is that its only through lack of understanding that some people don’t believe in god or the bible. It is actually the reverse. It is through a lack of understanding that you do not see the flaws of your faith. Of course the bible explains that all other religions are wrong, it wouldn’t have survived this long if it accepted it was totally wrong. Your understanding is of a single faith and a single belief. You need to open you mind, just a little more.

Oh and by the way, your ramblings on Jesus and god have don’t even register as arguments in my mind. To me if you don’t have a solid basis for point of view then you have no point of view. I am immune to preaching.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
I understand why you'd say all of that. I really do. God means nothing to you. You are immune to preaching. Check and check. You've made your bed and you're more than willing to sleep in it.
However, I don't believe you have the authority to say that Christianity is useless to other people. You don't know enough about it to say one way or another, because if you did, you'd prolly be a Christian right now! :)
I respect that you recognized mistakes you've made and dealt with them responsibly. But the fact of the matter is, not everyone is as strong as you are. And some problems in life are too big for us to fix ourselves. That's why we have Jesus. The strong in this life can carry their own load, but when you consider Jesus means to take our burdens from us, our own strength starts to look like huffing a sofa up the stairs, on your back, when you could have taken the elevator.
God says that worldly wisdom sees Him and His Word as foolish. That is nothing new to me, and to you. But if there is a weak person who comes along in Soulcast, and needs hope and love outside of themselves, they find nothing in your claims that God is false. For your part, you represent your view well. Just know I am just as adamant in pointing out a wisdom you've rejected.
StupidGenius said on Sep 17, 2007....

And that is exactly where you are sucked in by religion.

You felt at the time that your problem was bigger than you could handle so when you were told that jesus would take your burden and help you with your problems and in return all you needed to do was have faith thats where you fell into the trap.

I turn to freinds, family, support organisations etc. You dont need to deal with your porblems alone, their is always someone real to deal with and they acutaly have experiance of helping people with a particular problem unlike a priest, a whatever thousand year old book etc.

I would pick a real person with real experiance with a real ammount of knowledge over a priest spouting the words of an outdated book about a non existand person. Thats just my view on whats sensible when trying to help yourself.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2007....
One has to wonder if a trap including a loving God is really a trap at all, though. SG, you are assuming God doesn't exist because you haven't seen Him and He isn't testable in a lab. But some things aren't explained by science. Do you at least concede that science has its limits?
Christianity has a support network just the same as what you described, SG. It's referred to as fellowship. God provided the people we look to, whether we believe in Him or Jesus Jones (who had some awesome radio hits in the '90's).
I'll be frank, SG. I see what you believe and why you believe it, and I see how you express that. It's very disrespectful to Christians or anyone religious, for that matter. You've softened on some things, and hardened on others, and when you add it all up, I worry that you come across as a jerk. You seem to talk without listening (you probably do listen, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here), at the very least it seems you uphold your beliefs at the expense of others. I think at this point I've ceased to be offended (most of the time, that is :) ).
I think this'll be my last post on our conversations today over multiple posts. I find myself saying the same things in different contexts, as I'm sure you have, too. I think we can do better meeting the other where we're at, and talk about this stuff instead of hijacking others' posts (heck, even our own!). What do you think?
shiningstar said on Sep 17, 2007....
SG I completely believe that each make their own choices and create their own destiny. I am only showing that we are all tainted by the beliefs of our parents, peers, religions and societies beliefs. For me, to understand Jesus and Jehovah, was what I needed to understand why the days that are here and those to come are doing so. If we do not like our creations we have to change our beliefs.Religions create beliefs and governments that profit from them. Peace
StupidGenius said on Sep 18, 2007....

Why do people get offended when I question their religion? The answer is simple. You are unable to defend your religion is a sensible fasion therfor you get annoyed with that problem and simply try to spin the argument into a theological debate.

Science is progressionary, it is only limited by our technology and understanding of everything around us, the more amazing we expose the universe to be the more you cling to the belief that god created it all. Why cant you accept that the world is an amazing place and that dosnt mean that something even more amazing had to have created it. Science progresses as our knowledge evolves, your blind faith stays exactly the same as your belief system does not allow for the search for truth because it is drummed into you that the only truth is god.

If I criticised your favourite T.V show you wouldnt be offended so why get offended when I challenge your faith.

SG
lidstrom82 said on Sep 18, 2007....
Do you really not know how others can get offended by your words? It's because in terms of religion, it's obvious you don't respect what others think. You try very hard to discredit the position of all religion, and that risks alienating you from a good deal of the world's population. Christ calls us to love all people without condition. Following that is better than your past arguments of, "religion is a delusion", "Christ is copied from Horus", and so on. While it's true that God is more than able to handle criticism, you're playing with fire when it comes to showing a lack of respect for another person's beliefs.
Does that mean you should accept everything everyone believes? No way! Even Jesus, the quintessential testimony to loving others completely, warned against false teachers and lies and half-truths. You can love a person and respect them without tolerating something you know is a lie. I've researched my own faith and found no lie in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Keep in mind, SG, a committed Christian will have an "evolving knowledge", if you will, of their faith. That is, they will grow, be real about their doubts to God, and learn more about Him as their life progresses. Reading the Bible and praying to God is the path we take to understanding Him better.
Just as the best of today's science is your anchor, so is the Bible for Christians. I keep referring to Christians because I won't speak for other religions, not being a believer in them. Anyhow, the Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed that from the century before the new millennium through the Masoretic texts around the 11th century, the Word of God has changed very little, and any differences they found were a matter of a handful of insignificant word differences in a given chapter. The Dead Sea Scrolls essentially linked biblical times with the Masoretic text, which is what today's translations are derived from. The Scrolls were hidden away to preserve them when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem around 70 A.D.
So if the text has remained virtually unchanged for millennia, there's still the question of whether the events of the Bible actually happened. I believe they did. I see confirmation everywhere:
-I see that Abraham's sons, Isaac and Ishmael, have grown to become the fathers of the Jewish nation and the Arab nation, respectively. Ishmael was foretold by God to be at war with others and himself constantly. You're right, SG, they ARE linked - the Abrahamic religions are linked by Isaac and Ishmael. The derivation of religion you see has occurred mainly because the Jews did not recognize Jesus as savior. Remember the 1 Corinthians passage I quoted to you? The Gospel is nonsense to Gentiles and it offends Jews. That is why...Jews don't want to consider that perhaps they missed the Messiah that they're still waiting for. In fact, some still follow Jewish custom even though they've given up hope for the Messiah to come, never considering that Jesus was that savior.
-I see the complexities of nature, in harmony with one another. Then I see power lines, smokestacks, landfills, litter, and countless evidence for our misuse and disrespect of that nature. At the very least, a highway looks a bit out of place in a beautiful forest valley. Is that the best existence has to offer?
-I see people every day who are hurting. Some claim that you don't have to be a Christian to help others, but I see seldom few of them actually DO. Why? Because there's not much reason to. We're keeping up with the Joneses, worried about our own finances, and constantly thinking about ourselves. Without something to call you to a higher purpose (say, feeding the poor), we hardly do it. Looking at divorce statistics, married people can barely know how to care for each other nowadays - what makes us think there's enough of us caring for strangers?
I could go on...but at the very least, there is the common denominator of sin. That is, none of us are perfect, and when you multiply that times 6 billion people, viola - there's the ugliness we see in the world. I believe Jesus Christ is the savior that is here for all people over all nations, and He is practical healing for everyone because He knows our hearts and minds, and knows where our weaknesses and needs are, often better than we do. He lived a life caring for the sorrows of others, and so He's gone through the same anguish we do. He did it for us, no matter how horrible we've been. Unbelief is the only thing that keeps us from embracing God.
And if an unseen God is too big of a leap, look at the Bible. It is there to explain the nature of God. Anyone who refuses to do that is like a person who never goes to an airport and insists that man cannot fly. But while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. No one is exempt from sin and ugly imperfection, but no one is exempt from salvation through Christ, either.
lidstrom82 said on Sep 18, 2007....
Do you really not know how others can get offended by your words? It's because in terms of religion, it's obvious you don't respect what others think. You try very hard to discredit the position of all religion, and that risks alienating you from a good deal of the world's population. Christ calls us to love all people without condition. Following that is better than your past arguments of, "religion is a delusion", "Christ is copied from Horus", and so on. While it's true that God is more than able to handle criticism, you're playing with fire when it comes to showing a lack of respect for another person's beliefs.

Does that mean you should accept everything everyone believes? No way! Even Jesus, the quintessential testimony to loving others completely, warned against false teachers and lies and half-truths. You can love a person and respect them without tolerating something you know is a lie. I've researched my own faith and found no lie in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Keep in mind, SG, a committed Christian will have an "evolving knowledge", if you will, of their faith. That is, they will grow, be real about their doubts to God, and learn more about Him as their life progresses. Reading the Bible and praying to God is the path we take to understanding Him better.

Just as the best of today's science is your anchor, so is the Bible for Christians. I keep referring to Christians because I won't speak for other religions, not being a believer in them. Anyhow, the Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed that from the century before the new millennium through the Masoretic texts around the 11th century, the Word of God has changed very little, and any differences they found were a matter of a handful of insignificant word differences in a given chapter. The Dead Sea Scrolls essentially linked biblical times with the Masoretic text, which is what today's translations are derived from. The Scrolls were hidden away to preserve them when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem around 70 A.D.

So if the text has remained virtually unchanged for millennia, there's still the question of whether the events of the Bible actually happened. I believe they did. I see confirmation everywhere:

-I see that Abraham's sons, Isaac and Ishmael, have grown to become the fathers of the Jewish nation and the Arab nation, respectively. Ishmael was foretold by God to be at war with others and himself constantly. You're right, SG, they ARE linked - the Abrahamic religions are linked by Isaac and Ishmael. The derivation of religion you see has occurred mainly because the Jews did not recognize Jesus as savior. Remember the 1 Corinthians passage I quoted to you? The Gospel is nonsense to Gentiles and it offends Jews. That is why...Jews don't want to consider that perhaps they missed the Messiah that they're still waiting for. In fact, some still follow Jewish custom even though they've given up hope for the Messiah to come, never considering that Jesus was that savior.
lidstrom82 said on Sep 18, 2007....
continued from above:

-I see the complexities of nature, in harmony with one another. Then I see power lines, smokestacks, landfills, litter, and countless evidence for our misuse and disrespect of that nature. At the very least, a highway looks a bit out of place in a beautiful forest valley. Is that the best existence has to offer?

-I see people every day who are hurting. Some claim that you don't have to be a Christian to help others, but I see seldom few of them actually DO. Why? Because there's not much reason to. We're keeping up with the Joneses, worried about our own finances, and constantly thinking about ourselves. Without something to call you to a higher purpose (say, feeding the poor), we hardly do it. Looking at divorce statistics, married people can barely know how to care for each other nowadays - what makes us think there's enough of us caring for strangers?

I could go on...but at the very least, there is the common denominator of sin. That is, none of us are perfect, and when you multiply that times 6 billion people, viola - there's the ugliness we see in the world. I believe Jesus Christ is the savior that is here for all people over all nations, and He is practical healing for everyone because He knows our hearts and minds, and knows where our weaknesses and needs are, often better than we do. He lived a life caring for the sorrows of others, and so He's gone through the same anguish we do. He did it for us, no matter how horrible we've been. Unbelief is the only thing that keeps us from embracing God.

And if an unseen God is too big of a leap, look at the Bible. It is there to explain the nature of God. Anyone who refuses to do that is like a person who never goes to an airport and insists that man cannot fly. But while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. No one is exempt from sin and ugly imperfection, but no one is exempt from salvation through Christ, either.
shiningstar said on Sep 18, 2007....
Jesus spent a lot of time telling the people to not be offended by what he was trying to teach them. Any time any one tries to take the people beyond what they learned at their Mother's knee they often get offended because it is new. Sometimes they get offended because they feel they they have the "one right way" and there is no other way but theirs. Of course that is called close minded because it lets in nothingelse but what they already believe. It is kinda like a playpen. One gathers up all of their toys(beliefs) and dares anyone to take one from them. No one can give them a new toy because they have declared that they already have all of the toys in the world.Peace.
shiningstar said on Oct 16, 2007....
What do people see when they look at the world and try to justify religion with its ever so pure views and the ongoing wars, injustices and poverty that it creates? Why do people continue doing something that destroys people that they do not even know and destroys the planet, our home, that we all live on. It is not like we can move out and go somewhere else. War kills the envirement, plants, animals and soil. It takes all of these things for people to live. The soil, all over the world, has, at one time or the other been soaked in the blood of people being killed and fighting over religion.Only the people of the world can end this by refusing to create war in their personal lives or the world that they live in.Peace
shiningstar said on Dec 11, 2007....
The "Problem With The Bible" was the orginal post that for me, was based on what people believe. It has nothing to do ,for me, with the facts as to if Jesus existed or any other Master. It is based totally on the search for the Bible saying two differnt things(and more) about one subject. If we were taught math that way there would be no math. Things that do not add up, do not make sense and cause confusion hid the answers to it all. A person of the simplist mind knows what love FEELS like, a blind person knows, a deaf person knows. When we believe that a man like Jesus said and did horrible things in the name of love we have to understand that that is a divided house of which all of the Masters works teach us about. THEY were not of a divided house. They lived lives of love that did not subject anyone to hate, ridicule or scorn for they loved the life-force, the god within that created it all.Peace
shiningstar said on Jul 24, 2008....
When people finally grasp the fact that Jesus in one entity and Jehovah is another and one lives and teaches love and the other teaches hate they will create an understanding of the Bible. Most people believe what they have been taught by their peers and the religions that all were raised up in. Any one can grab a sentence here and there and quote the words in the Bible. But they create confusion because in one place one thing is said and in another it's opposite is said.But the confusion ends when one goes a little deeper and discovers it makes sense when one understands that it is really two statements by two different people and religion has created weaving them together in one.Think anout this. There are only 2000 words or less written in the New Testament attributed to Jesus. Most people speak that many words in one day. How many religions does it takes and how many religious leaders and schools to understand 2000 words? It is so simple once someone gives it consideration.
shiningstar said 7 days ago....
I just watched a movie called " I am Moses" featured in a Law of Attraction class. Once again Jehovah is crossed with the All Lnowing Intelligence that creates all Life and all in life. In such a suttle way one is lead to believe that Jehovah, the judgemental, self proclaimed war god is the one who Moses and Jesus both followed and prayed too. I am always amazed that people do not see the difference between one who teaches "an eye for an eye" and the one who teaches "love ye one another". To me this brought forth a lifetime of questioning for it makes no sense that the two are one.

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What do you believe in??

MsBradford07 posted 4 days ago | views: 56 | Tags: believe, angels, religion

Being on this site and meet people of various ethnic background and different beliefs.... read entire post 9 comments

Are we condemned because Adam ate the Apple?

WriterCarlDobbs posted 5 days ago | views: 50 | Tags: righteousness, Dobbs, religion, Adam and eve, sin, Brian

Simply, the answer is NO! It doesn't jibe with the rudimentary doctrines of Jesus or even our own sense of morality. Who can condemn a newborn baby for sin? Who can say Adam condemned us all by sinning? It's a crazy concept!... read entire post 4 comments

THE ELEPHANT IN MY ROOM

preacher314 posted 4 days ago | views: 22 | Tags: religion, thank you

WHAT'S IN MY HEART... read entire post 1 comments

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The Problem With The Bible

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