uniquely-ironic's tags:
I had this idiotic discussion last night with my BF.  He told me that he thinks it's unfair for things like DUI felony convictions (his sister) to show up on background checks.  He went on to say that he thinks if a person has served their sentence that all but the worst of the felony convictions should not appear on a person's background check.  His claim is that it is a form of cruel and unusual punishment since it may affect a person's ability to find work and put food on the table.
 
My thought is that when people make these kind of stupid decisions, even if they have finished serving their sentence, they need to live with the consequences.  If we do not warn potential employers and others that the person they are considering has these flaws, we are failing them.  Without these safeguards child molesters could be teachers, wife beaters could be cops, embezzlers could be bankers.
 
Where do we draw the line at protecting an individuals rights versus the general public?
 
As fair notice I do have to say that I know this could be a touchy subject.  I would also say that my opinion is just that, my opinion.


del.icio.us Digg reddit StumbleUpon

Comments

  • silverwhisper said on Jun 04, 2007....
    i am in complete agreement with you, u-i.

    ed
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 04, 2007....
    SW - thanks for agreeing.  For awhile there I was questioning whether or not I'm just too conservative.
  • silverwhisper said on Jun 04, 2007....
    well, you and i both view it as a personal responsibility thing.

    ed
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 04, 2007....
    SW - I also see it as a case of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few.  Believe me, that kind of thinking doesn't always work to my advantage.
  • silverwhisper said on Jun 04, 2007....
    no, it can certainly go against you easily enough, i know. :>

    ed
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 04, 2007....
    I'd rather be inconvenienced and be able to sleep at night.
  • darkpearl said on Jun 04, 2007....
    Not sure where you are from but in Canada, employers can no longer ask if someone has a criminal record. They can get around this by asking if the person is bondable. If you have a record you're not bondable. Also anyone working with children has to agree to a police check and many associations working with children have police officers on their boards. My second husband was in a bar brawl, he won so he was charged with assault causing bodily harm. He had to wait five years before getting his record exsponged but he still had to tell the border guards when we visited the States. (this might have changed because my husband's trouble was years ago, I do know that now you have to pay to have it done). I agree with your husband, it is cruel and unsual punisment, (sex offenders are always on record and cannot be exsponged). But as your hubby points out if exfelons cannot get jobs they resort back to criminal activity.
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 04, 2007....

    dark - while I sympathize with your hubby's situation, I see his case as the few paying for the protection of the many.  I do not want to have an embezzler taking care of my bank account (tho there'd be little temptation) or a child molester watching my kids.  I personally have hired people with felony records when I ran my locksmithing business, but knowing that I should be careful to keep an eye on them was crucial to my success.

  • Eilan said on Jun 04, 2007....
    Making poor decisions is what affects a person's ability to put food on the table.  It's not the system's fault.

    Whatever happened to taking responsibility for one's actions?
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 04, 2007....
    Eilan - which is the basis of my argument.  If you make poor decisions there will be consequences.  If not, why would people stop making that paticular bad decision if there were no consequences.
  • beyondtheveil said on Jun 04, 2007....
    unique- Child molesters, murderers, and certain other felonies aside, this is very complicated and can be grossly unfair. Just to name one example. I know of an actual case of someone I don't know personally.

    A woman had a good job as manager and was well liked by the company and the people she was over. She was also a battered woman. In one incident, she hit her husband in self-defense. He called the police since he was the only one with a visible injury. The police arrested her and in an agreement proposed by a bad lawyer pled guilty to make the case go away, even though there was a history of domestic violence perpetrated by her husband.

    A new company took over and did a background check as most companies do. She was immediately fired. So now she has no job, a child, and no possibility of getting one in her field. Just how many cases are there similar to this across the country?
  • darkpearl said on Jun 04, 2007....
    I am all for taking responsibity. But we all make mistakes and are not punished for them for the rest of our lives. Bankers embezzle all the time. The banks hush it up so their customers don't lose faith in them. And these bankers have never been convicted of a crime.  Child molesters are registered in the States and on record in Canada. Career criminals are not usually out of jail long enough to have their records exsponged. Therefore, it is only people who have a mistake or two that get their records wiped clean. We have all broken a law or two and either just haven't got caught or that particular law wasn't  being enforced at the time. 
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 04, 2007....

    BTV - I've heard stories like that, and believe me it makes me angry.  A first offense is usually reduced or dismissed, but in the case you sited some slime ball attorney was too lazy to defend their client.  THESE ARE NOT THE RULE, BUT USUALLY THE EXCEPTION.  I would be interested to know if this woman has made an attempt to reopen the case due to poor representation.  Also, the definition of self defense is to block or ward off being attacked.  If she was attacked by her husband then there should have been defensive wounds.

    dark - Isn't there a process in place to have records sealed?  If your hubby has stayed out of trouble he would probably be eligible for this.  I am not saying that all criminals get caught, but those who did need to be dealt consequences.  You can't seriously suggest that just because there are people who don't get caught that all offenders be relieved of the consequences, are you?

  • darkpearl said on Jun 04, 2007....

    records being sealed is the same as getting them exsponged (I might not be spelling that right).  The consequences are the sentence handed down by the court. period.  What is basically being said here, is that if you break the law, you have to pay for the rest of your life.  If you have one too many one night, should you have a hangover for the rest of your life?  Over drinking is a poor decision.

    No I am not suggesting that anyone be relieved of consequences but how long does one pay them? You seem to be suggesting life sentences for anyone who has broken the law and has been caught.

  • rupert7 said on Jun 04, 2007....
    uniquely-ironic, I agree with you 100%. I am a bit vague on the law in this area,here in Western Australia,but i do know that a lot of employers ask job applicants for a police clearance.That involves a police check which takes a bout a week and costs the applicant $30.After a week you either get a clearance or you don't. With the clearance you might get the job,without it you get sent on your way! Of course,if you were actually wanted you would be pretty stupid to ask for a clearance! LOL At the end of the day this acts as some sort of protection for all. So a potential criminal might do we to think again,it could impact on their life for a lot longer than they think!
  • mastroscara said on Jun 05, 2007....

    I must respectfully disagree with your post.  I agree 100% with darkpearl.  If someone has to have a conviction on their record for the rest of their life and they are such a danger to society, then why aren't they still locked up?

     

    There are many many many instances where something that is designed to protect "the greater good" ends up harming so many individuals that the greater good is harmed as well.


    I think the example of sex offenders is an important one here.  Not all sex offenders kidnap eight year olds and rape them.  What one state classifies as a "sex-offense" can be behavior between consenting adults.  But get caught and you have a permanent stain on your record for the rest of your life.

    Prior to the Supreme Court ruling in favor of Lawerence in Lawrence v. Texas the pair of gay men at the center of the case had been "caught" in their OWN HOME behind closed doors having sex with each other.  Sodomy, at the time, was illegal in Texas and the pair was hauled off to jail.  The reason the case came to be in the first place is because, once released, the "offenders" in this case were required to register as sex-offenders.

    No matter what one's thoughts are on the morality of homosexuality, last time I checked the US was SUPPOSED to be a free country.  Having to register as a sex-offender because you had sex with another consenting adult, no matter the gender, is ludicrous.  The man in question had a hard time getting a job and, worse, once his neighbors found out he was on the sex offender registry for the area, they perpetuated harrassment and threats against him.

    Dark pearl is correct--this is the equivelant of a life sentence for consenting adult sex.

    Similarly, a sex offense can be as trivial as an 18 year old being convicted of having sex with a 17 year old.  An arbitrary line is drawn and the "offender" is punished for the rest of their life.

    Another example--a big one!  I am a Financial Aid administrator.  In Arizona (where I used to live), if you were caught, as a minor, with alcohol, you would easily get convicted for Minor In Possession, or MIP.  Most people took the conviction and went to diversion (a treatment program) and moved on with their lives.  Or so they thought.  Until the next year rolled around and they had to answer question 31 on their Free Application for Federal Student aid, "Have you been convicted of the possession or sale of illegal drugs..."  If you answer yes--and because Arizona lumped MIPs together, there was no distinction between drunken partying and selling crack--the correct answer was yes, you faced a complete disqualification for federal financial aid funds.


    How are we supposed to expect people to make better things out of their lives if they can't get money to go to school because they got drunk one night before they turned 21? 

    With all due respect, to say that you are "too conservative" is laughable.  No true conservative I know really wants to give the government enough power to track our every move for our whole lives, nor do they think that the government should regulate what people do in their own bedrooms.

    How many people do you know that have had a drink prior to age 21?  Are they terrible people who shouldn't be allowed to get a job?

    My brother turned 18 many years ago.  He recieved a letter from the Juvenille Court system asking if he wanted his record sealed.  In a panic, he called my mother, frightened that his record would keep him from getting a job.

    My mother's response?  "Ted, you were 12.  You were convicted of bullfrogging out of season.  Don't seal that record.  Let any potential employer not hire you because you were a 12 year old boy catching bullfrogs in the river.  If you seal it they will wonder if you are a rapist or a murderer, rather than a normal kid."

    I use this example to point out that, often, the letter of the law (and in this case, the judge's hands were tied and he had to convict, because my brother was catching bullfrogs and it wasn't the season for that) does not create good outcomes.

     

  • boyzmom said on Jun 05, 2007....
    I think employers have to take it on a case by case basis, isn't that why they ask for an explanation on the application prior to the background check? State laws vary so much from one to another that I would think that each state should have their own rules regarding sealing records. I hate that my ex's DUII's didn't show on his record when he went to get another driver's license because he continued to drive under the influence and could have killed somebody, we are talking about 8 or more times in his life! He should have to prove to be a responsible adult before getting those records sealed again.
  • darkpearl said on Jun 05, 2007....
    mastro thankyou for saying so clearly what I was trying to say.
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 05, 2007....

    dark and mastro - I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this matter.  I stand by my opinions and you are welcome to disagree.  Yes, I've done stupid things, but because there are clear consequences I exersized my good judgement and avoided making a big mistake.  If a person will allow a strike against them to defeat a life goal than so be it.  There are opportunities to rise above these past mistakes if a person truly wants to and if they don't they need to live with their decision.

    boyz - Yes, often an employer has the opportunity to exersize discretion and the applicant can also plead their case.  The only hopeless situation is the one where people choose not to work to overcome a setback.

  • darkpearl said on Jun 05, 2007....
    uniquely
    There are no opportunities for people who have been branded for life. I am happy you have never been in this situation but (no offense) I am always amazed at the arrogance of those who haven't "been there", in any situation.  
    To err is human
    To forgive divine
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 05, 2007....
    Before you imply that I'm arrogant you should know that within my own family are people who have "been there" and paid a price for their poor decision.  As much as I love them, I think it was (and more importantly they think it was) not an unsurmountable obstacle to overcome.  All have led and are leading productive happy lives.  They are forgiven and able to resume a decent life.
     
    I find your own defeatist attitude more appauling than any persons crime. 
  • darkpearl said on Jun 05, 2007....
    Now I am confused, wasn't the original post suggesting that these people shouldn't be forgiven. That their past criminal activity should follow them and if this stops them from putting food on the table, oh well they shouldn't have made such poor decisions in the first place? Now all is forgiven? Wasn't that what Mast and I were trying to point out in the first place? the act is arrogant, since I don't know you, how can I say anything about you? Conversely, how could you know that my husband is now dead and if I had a defeatist attitude, I would have accepted one of the three times that I wasn't suppose to live and have died myself. Oh by the way, I very happy for your relatives who made it, many don't
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jun 05, 2007....
    dark - I'm sorry you don't see the difference between forgiving and forgetting and forgiving and not forgetting.  I never meant to say that it would go unforgiven, only unforgotten.  If you need some sort of win on this issue, by all means, take it.
     
    I'm sorry your husband is dead.  I'm glad you are alive.
  • oceanwaves1 said on Nov 04, 2007....
    This is only hypothetical-right, because my career was in law enforcement and I am not aware that a felony can be removed from your record.  What I think is stupid is that these past felony convictions can't be used to show a tendency to commit a certain type of crime. I am not saying that is all the evidence needed but it is part of the evidence. I am also against the three conviction rule where if you are convicted three times you are put away, but I think you are referring to a more minor situation here so I think the fact that a felony conviction can't be removed should answer that.  Has the law changed because I have been retired for over 10 years?

    DON'T FORGET-YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH THE MOST CURRENT DEAD AND WOUNDED YOUR TAX DOLLARS ARE SUPPORTING AT  http://antiwar.com 

    and my personal closing to do the right thing:  two petitions to help us help ourselves; http://www.democrats.com/peoplesemailnetwork/88?ad=d5, and http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/ufpj/petition.jsp?pe

    tition_KEY=447  I must also offer you and opportunity to watch a compelling case for impeachment http://web.mac.com/rocky.anderson/americanvalues/impeachment.html  PEACE-DL

Comment on "Unfair or Fair Warning?"


(Separate tags using commas, for example: New York, dating, vegetarian)

Police checks and other background checks play an important role in creating and sustaining a safe and productive work place. Employers can benefit in three ways when they establish a policy of pre employment background checks....
Police and traffic checks are no longer an option for business owners in Australia. On 1 July 2009 police in Western Australia were given a range of powers to impound vehicles. Business owners need to understand the new laws and perform regular traff...
Police checks are inexpensive and effective in preventing fraud, theft and other criminal activity in your workplace. It is important to understand the risks involved in hiring staff or granting access to your site or company information. Learn how p...
Employing a job applicant who holds fake qualifications can be a nightmare scenario for employers. We uncover the reasons that applicants might fake their qualifications, the most common deceptions and what you can do to ensure this doesn’t happen to...
Hiring a new staff member who holds fake qualifications can be a troublesome scenario for employers. The dishonest applicant can place your company at risk and you could be exposed to legal action, financial loss or worse. Understanding why applicant...