• SeanRenaud said on May 26, 2007....

  If you would just have taken Jesus out of that last line you would have described a perfect utopia.
   
  An aethiest world.  Once you add Jesus and uber love and forgivenss it erases the responsibility you mentioned at the begining for without consequence there can be no responsibility.  Come to think of it its mildly amusing the world didn't come out worse than it did with Christians in charge.

• shiningstar said on May 27, 2007....

  I do so agree SR except for the Jesus part you spoke of.  But if you could just understnd that the real Jesus was the best freedom From Religion Activists ever born and the Bible proves that. But using the perspective of the religious teachers they have managed to make the perspective of the Bible to be read the way that they present it not the way it really reads. When you change your perception and do not see theirs whereas Jesus and Jehovah are the same or even related the true story is revealed. The Old and the New were never meant to be mixed together but since they have been they cause the confusion that they needed to create to cover up the truth.

• SeanRenaud said on May 27, 2007....

  Even completely divorced from the OT Jesus still died for our sins and erased our evil with his blood.  We don't need to be good because its covered.  No amount of twisting will get away from that difference between what we should do and what we NEED to do.

• shiningstar said on May 28, 2007....

  That is so-o-om funny SR.  Have anyone, anyone stand up for the whole planet of people and die for them and see if it changes anything or any one of them.  Have all of the people on the planet die for just one person and see if it will change just that one person.  Life doesn't work that way.  It is a personal,  individual journey. It is no wonder that the world is in such a mess if "no one needs to be good because IT'S covered".  Sounds like a cop-out to me. Just be a better person and seek the knowledge that allows you to do the greater things that Jesus had faith enough in YOU that you could do them. Try and live up to his expectation and his promise of power FOR YOU.

• SeanRenaud said on May 28, 2007....

  Once again your speaking aetheism.  (my chosen religion)  In Christianity there is MAGIC and the rules of logic that you are stating don't apply.

• shiningstar said on May 28, 2007....

  Only in your world,my friend. Only in your world.

• 2foldONE said on May 29, 2007....

  Allow me to not challenge your faith but your reasoning…

         If I/you were Jehovah/God, all knowing, all powerful, then why create a stumbling block for two of my newest creations only to have to send in a pinch hitter in the form of a perishable incarnation of me (God) to correct the wrong.  Then to only have people figure some 2,000 years later that because of that work they would assume that they no longer have to live righteous, like I wanted them to from the beginning because of it!  

         Ask a million believers did Christ die for their sins and all of them would of course say “yes”.  Ask them because Christ died for your sins does that mean that I can now go to heaven and they would again answer “yes”.  But for some odd reason, many if not at least 90% believe that because he died for their sins that they automatically will go to heaven despite their conduct here on earth.

         A perfect God does not even create the opportunity for such confusion.  I mean, just think about that.  “We don't need to be good because its covered.”  I myself am not perfect.  Far from it.  So very far from it.  But I have never believed in such ideology, not that I think myself more worthy or smart or what have you.  Even when I was a practicing Christian, I would strive to be just like Jesus because I loved him. But this simple reasoning has always been a factor: actions create consequence.  Life has taught me that for every action I take, there is an outcome from that action. If I kill someone who’s very loved by his/her family, I have not only caused turmoil and grief but I have irrevocably altered the course of that person’s lineage and the world’s in the long term.  If we are free from the consequence of our actions then why not have had that attitude toward my newbies (Adam and Eve) from the jump?  Why create laws?  Why even inspire my word for others to read!  That type of “logic” is self defeating.  As shinningstar said (allow me to take you out of context here) “Life doesn't work that way.” 

         Who is God to create such conditions of having his creation believe in such contradictory things?  This is a worthy question.  This is the reason why the so called “evils” (only labeled as such by those who consider themselves to be okay) continue in our society.  “The children never develop the propensity to stop falling off the bike” is what I said in a parallel subject.  But, “If you love me” Jesus says “then you will…”, do what…

         Keeping the commandment of God via Jesus is supposed to be the whole point of Christianity!!!  But out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.  Like as I was getting to however, the confusion that has taken place as of late, does not have God’s John Hancock.  It is darkness or ignorance.  Ignorance of the fact that we are in fact the son of God.  Each one of us.  If it be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.  It is here yet again, where the “example” has only confused us because we think the example has done it all. 

         Now tell me what’s more important: to believe in the example or to be the example?  If it’s the later then a perfect God would have to need to manifest Himself in the flesh.  He need only you to enlighten to be such.

• shiningstar said on Jun 02, 2007....

   If God is all there is ,  an Omni -Presence the this Divine Intelligence is it's creations.  It is NOT some old man in flowing white hair stareing down at people looking for the good-bad in them or even guiding them.  One cannot have it both ways.  Either God is Omni-Present or it is not.  The only problem is that most have been taught to believe that Jehovah is the creator and the God of all which is not true.  Just because he taught the people this does not make it true.Please do a search for the book "Handbook For The New Paradigm". It is free when you go to the site.  Groups meet all over the world in three's to share this information which is most needed in order for us to understand what is happening in our world today and what is being imposed on us by a regime that supports and created the suppression of all people globally.  There are many   sites to be discovered that give you better insights into other information about who the gods are and why Jehovah has claimed to be the parent of all people.

• 2foldONE said on Jun 07, 2007....

  Oh and for the record, “If it’s the later then a perfect God would have to need to manifest Himself in the flesh” ,should be that our Creator would have no need to manifest in the flesh.

• shiningstar said on Jun 09, 2007....

  God Is The Divine Intelligence that is the host of all flesh all mass. Why would he need to manifest in the flesh?  How else could anyone truly know anyone than to become them?  Otherwise we are are just looking in from the outside whereas no one really knows anyone else but self.  And,  for some,  even that is seemingly impossible.

• shiningstar said on Jul 06, 2007....

  The religious way is often to suppress children and to administer discipline that involves striking a child.  The saying is often borrowed from the OT that says to "spare the rod and spoil the child".  That appears to give them the right to bully a child for only a bully makes a smaller person miserable or takes advantage of the fact that they cannot defend theirselves or run away from their tormentor.  Children and teenagers who run away from home run away from the miserableness that is imposed on them. They are taught to respect parents and peers but none respect them. This is what happens when people live from a book instead of living in a way that respect all people regardless of their size and a way that works so everyone is happy.

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 06, 2007....

  Once again show me the verse with the spare the rod quote.  You make up stuff and it takes away from any credibility you might have.  Overall you have a decent message, I mean the fact that you still believe this religion crap is annoying but you know what if all crazy people were like you I wouldn't mind them because you're largely coming up with the right answers for the wrong reasons.
   
  I do believe strongly that if you spare the rod you spoil the child and I see it all around me everyday.  You can almost spot right out a child who's parents diciplined him vs those who don't.   Those who don't are disrespectful little brats.  Every so often you see a child who was raised by parents who wouldn't strike them and came out ok but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

• shiningstar said on Jul 16, 2007....

  There is an art to raising children SR. If one loves a child one would never strike it or hurt it in any way.  But the Biblical message has always been to do so.  But reason tells us that if we cross pain with love we will have confusion. Because if love is mixed with feelings of pain then we get sexual perversion which is probably why there is so much of that going on on the planet. Raising a child by example is what works.  All of Nature teaches their young by showing them how to be.  But of course religion goes against Mother Nature and always has done so.No one feels like they are being loved while being hit,  verbally abused or emotionally abused.  This crossfiring has worked for our detriment for religious advancement because we have been taught to accept the god of the OT who hurts people because he loves them and that teaching is deeply embedded in the consciousness of the world and it's people.  It is that consciousness that I endeaver to re-educate self and others about which is what Jesus came to prevent as many others Masters have tried to do.Religion is patient and waits until all are dead who remembered the Masters and then takes their words and works and reweaves them into their spin so it matches what they are teaching the people in order to control them and the wealth.

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 16, 2007....

  Ok, I see what your point is.  It is an interesting point but I don't strictly agree with it.  Some lessons need to be immediatly ingrained into a child's mind.  I would rather spank a child that is about to touch and open flame than the alternative, let him.  You've been leading by example the entire time, you've obviously never touched a flame.  There are multiple other dangerous things that you can't let a child make his own mistakes.  Curiosity kills cats, it shouldn't be allowed to kill children.
   
  If we look at the children who have never been struck they are almost without exception spoiled.  I garuntee you that Paris Hilton was never struck or talked down to, and look how great she turned out. 
   
  Now by example many of the famous murderers and rapists have been beaten and spoken down to.  There is a right way and a wrong way and it's not violence free, violence is part of how humans learn, and so is good examples.
   
  Violence should always bee a last resort for human interaction, sadly it isn't.  It should however remain a resort.

• shiningstar said on Aug 03, 2007....

  If one lives an example for children and  treats them as respectfully as their peers and parents want to be treated then children will always reflect the envirement that they are raised in.To spank a child in order to prevent them from doing any thing only enforces the crossing love with punishment and pain which is the teachings of Jehovah.  This crossfiring is the reason behind child abuse, sexual predators and child molestors.Hitting for any reason, especially by one who is supposed to love the child, crossfires and becomes abuse.  Think about it. Imagine someone standing over a child and how much bigger they are than the child. Imagine how little that child must feel as the parent towers over them and threatens to strike them. Under other circumstances a bigger person picking on a smaller  one is called a bully.  Then obviously it can be no difference in the parent/child relationship. Love never hurts and when you crossover into pain/love you are in Jehovah's world.  www.optioninstitute.com teaches a way to raise children without the old way of discipline.Peace

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 03, 2007....

  You're child is reaching onto the oven, an iron.  You tell him no.  He doesn't understand or he ignores you.  You of course have been leading by example his entire life, you don't want to get burned.  You find him doing it again, again you tell him no.  One day your not paying attention, just for a second, your child reaches up onto the stove and spills hot grease on himself, or he touches the iron.
   
  No letting your children make their own mistakes is abusive.  I'm sorry but your wrong, atleast this is one of the few times when you're not an idiot or a liar, you're just wrong.

• shiningstar said on Aug 07, 2007....

  Is that what you  do best SN?  Name calling? Everyone else is wrong? Does that bring joy into your life?  Does it validate your views?  Your beliefs? What a beautiful waste of your precious energy. Peace

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 07, 2007....

  Funny how the ONE time I'm not name calling you accuse me of it.  Yeah everyone else is wrong.  No it doesn't bring me joy, it makes the world a better place.  What validates my views is seeing the results of people doing it the wrong way.  It might be a waste of energy, but I don't accept the world for what it is, I work on improving it.

• shiningstar said on Aug 08, 2007....

  Kinda Ironic SN that this time you did regress on your usual name calling.It is wonderful that you believe that more disrespect for others ways,  beliefs and doings will make the world a better,  improved place. I guess I see it differently in that what we need is to respect everyone and just leave them alone without judgement. If we heal the core,  the beliefs that create the problems then there would be no problems. You have much insight to offer and I do appreciate your posts.Just endeavor to understand my far different ways of expressing for one day what was unknown to you and unbelievable might be common place.Peace

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 08, 2007....

  Okay Shining I'm going to try to handle this a different way so that maybe you can grasp the importance of not respecting other people and why you need to judge them. 
   
  The following situations are hypothetical:
   
  There is a man who sits in front of my office selling drugs to people.  I can either use your method and not judge this man and let him go on about his bussiness.  He's going to get people addicted.  Those people are likely to turn to crime to support their habits.  They might die of overdose.  But since I respect everyone, don't use the law to lord over people I view as less than myself (or wrong) I let him continue and the world keeps slipping towards hell.  (which is my basic problem with Christianity's let he who is without sin dogma, fortunately most christians rationalize this away.)
   
  I will of course go out and ask him politely to leave and if that works, then I won't hound him to the ends of the earth.  He's not my problem anymore (which is still not a good solution, but whatever I don't do everything the best way) If it doesn't I call the police who arrest him.  His potential customers don't get hooked, don't commit crimes and don't OD.  I have made the world a better place because I judged somebody.
   
  Another example.  I see a guy who is volunteering his time to work with troubled youths. you know reading stories to them, playing sports with them, teaching them what they know.  I can do nothing (and maybe he's one of the few people really do completely selfless acts.  Maybe just the happiness he causes that child is enough.) and maybe he doesn't do it again. 
   
  Or I can judge him as a good man and shake his hand, tell him people appreciate what he's doing.  Maybe take him out to lunch if I have the time.
   
  In a world where nobody judges the evil men will triumph.  Not only because the good won't stand up for each other but also because there will be less good people because nobody is going to be telling them that they are good and right. 
   
  Bad men triumph when good men do nothing Shiningstar.  In your world there are no good men, there are neutral men who let whatever devils remain rule.  Because you don't want to judge.
   
  What's worse is that you don't really believe in a good super god protecting you.  If you did then I could understand you're desire to let him judge people.  If you die because you didn't defend yourself who cares, you did the right thing you go to heaven.  But you believe you are a God, so tell me Shining.  Where will you go when you lay down and die for the devil who wants your wallet?  Have you decorated your own personal heaven created from your god flame?  Have you moved any mountains or do you not believe your own stories?

• shiningstar said on Aug 09, 2007....

  The man who sells drugs will only sell to those who desire them.  You cannot take the desire away from the buyer or the desire to sell from the seller. What Jesus taught was consciousness.  It is the consciousness that has to change in people and no one can do that for another.  All you are required to do is be impecable for your own self,  your own life.Perhaps this person has lived a million lifetimes and this one has chosen to learn a particular thing.  Each of them play a vital role in producing growth in consciousness in this lifetime.  Since you can only see them sitting there with limited vision how could you have the knowledge to judge any of them as "wrong".?  Jesus knew that and even seeing with greater vision he refused to judge or be the kind of "do-gooder"  that you think should be.

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2007....

  Whatever idiot.  There is just no getting through to you that the reason things got this bad is because people failed to judge, not because they judged to much.

• shiningstar said on Aug 10, 2007....

  Just how could they have judged more SR?

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 10, 2007....

  1.  We could have judged that racists were dangerous and shot down their beliefs early and often.
   
  2.  We could have judged that intelectuals were of equal value as athletes.  Had we done that more children would be interested in reading and our sciences would be more advanced.  Which would lower the amount of people suffering from hunger or dying of starvation.
   
  3.  We could have judged that people who think that all their sins were erased were wrong and that each man must be held accountable for his own actions.
   
  4.  We could have judged that there was nothing gay about being a Boy Scout and learning the skills that make better citizens.
   
  Now lets see what happens if we don't judge others. 
   
  Drugs running rampant?  Yup. 
   
  Rapists running rampant, after all if people like me fail to use the law to lord my opinion of right and wrong over them they won't stop.
   
  Murderers free to murder?  Check.
   
  No matter how you twist it Shiningstar the less judgements we make the worse the world will be. 
   
  Go look in the mirror, realize what you are.  You're a human being and you matter.  You're judgements shape the world, don't just judge the bad of the world (which might have been what Jesus was getting at.  Though it is unlikely) don't just tell the people who doing bad not to do what they are doing but tell the people who are doing good that they are doing good.  Encourage the good people around you.
   
   

• shiningstar said on Aug 11, 2007....

  You know I do admire and deeply respect your comments and beliefs here Sn and believe it or not I agree with most of your statements.  But it is not the judging of these things that would have changed anything.  It is the beliefs that created them and continues to do so.  The beliefs come from the people.They come from the social consciousness that make up the beliefs of families,  homes,  communities,  nations,  cultures and the world. The beliefs come from the fabric of religion and government teachings.  It is the core reasons for the issues that we face this I attempt to get down to and present so that people can comptemplate them and begin to understand why we think as we do and why we act as we do..If this had of been done before racism and the other maladies that you list surely we would not have participated and created such horrible things. And yes I do celebrate the wonderful things that people do everyday.  The ones that do not sell drugs,  rape or murder,ect. I "shine" everyday and encouage all others to shine too in great joy and happiness that we are allowed LIFE.

• shiningstar said on Sep 09, 2007....

  Such is the Kingdom of heaven,  Jesus said about children.  He did not say that they needed to be taught guilt, obedience, respect or denial in order to be children that meets his specs. Children are perfect in each and every way when they are born.  It is the parents and peers who mess them up with their beliefs and their misguided actions and words of love that create such pain in the lives of their offspring.  No child sitting on a park bench homeless and sick is so ignorant that they do not know why they prefer that life to going "home".  Religion has taught a onesided principal of respect and deny the children of the world respect while giving it to the parents and peers that are making their lives miserable. In a natural world children are respected. They learn from parents and peers how to be independent and respectful of all life.  Until the missionaries come to them there is no shame in being naked and no sexual molestors.  They have no jails because they have no crimes that they cannot solve in their own communitities. Natural life works and always has.  The unnatural life of trying to live life from a book has never worked and never will.  Children must be honored and respected by parents that live this way and so set an example for them.

• shiningstar said on Oct 04, 2007....

  There is a school featured in the first issue of the new magazine Superconsciousness that shows pictures of children practicing the age old disciplines that all of the Masters practiced.  Also Barry Neil Kaptman of Option Institute has for many years healed children,  including his own son, by using only the principals of unconditional love.  His son's story is shown in the movie "Sonrise". Many private schools are coming forward that allow children toexplore their own minds with out judgement and super little people are being see.  As we let go of the old ways of discipline,  torture and abuse of children a new world is already waiting for us.  We will never end child abuse until we stop creating it because we breed it in the homes.  Every generation produces more sexual predators and we do not have enough jails to hold them all and if we did we are growing a bigger crop every year.  So we must end the old ways and begin respecting all children.Peace

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