• TinSoldier said on May 02, 2007....

  I don't know, since I've never lived in a time of the draft.
  
  When I was in the Marines, one of our senior NCOs had come in originally via the draft during Viet Nam. He decided to stay for thirty some-odd years.
  
  While I've known some shitbags in the military (and what veteran hasn't) I've actually met and known more high-quality, intelligent, hard-working people in the military than I have in civilian work.
  
  Maybe it was the services I was in -- both in the Marines and in the National Guard most people had a can-do attitude. Despite lacking resources, a way would be found to get the job done. Especially in the National Guard where individuals brought a wealth of real-world experiences with them that didn't necessarily have anything to do with their military occupational specialty.
  
  I don't know if that helps or not.
  

• curmudgeon said on May 02, 2007....

  Are draftees made of tougher stuff? I don't know. During the height of the Vietnam War we lost an average of 5000 people per year. Right now we're averaging less than a thousand a year occupying a nation of 24 million. While every war fatality is tragic, we must be doing some things better now with all volunteers than Vietnam, a war in which many did not want to be.
   
  But as far as "tough stuff" goes, I'd really have to hand it to WWII's Naval Combat Demolition Unit (NCDU) swimmers. The precursors to UDT and SEAL Teams, these guys performed hydrographic surveys under fire in little more than grease paint, fatigues and swim fins. They also cleared obstacles in the shallows and on the beaches prior to major sea landings.
   
  Working while cold, wet, under fire and strapped with explosive Hagensen packs on your back. You want to talk tough. Man, that's about as tough as it gets.

• silverwhisper said on May 03, 2007....

  i can't imagine how that's so, dunedin. honestly, i would think that it's the other way around.
  
  hopefully, some more vets will weigh in.
  
  ed

• Dunedin said on May 03, 2007....

  TS: Yes, that helps. Thanks for your perspective.
  
  Such reasoning as that spoke by my relative crossed my mind when I was younger. It was a small part of why I never joined the military. Other reasons were much more dissuasive, such as the 9:1 male/female ratio.
  
  
   
  Curm: Toughness is an angle I hadn't thought about. Interesting.
  
  What's meant in this post by high-quality people is somewhat illustrated in TS's comment—the kinds of people who enrich your life; you're better off for having known them. They have big goals beyond military life and the mental competence to achieve those goals.
  
  A draft military may or may not be as tough as a volunteer military. It's kind of beside the point when you're in the military only to increase the skills you will use in the real world.
  
  
  
  Ed: The reasoning is that a draft military brings in more people from all walks of life—middle class, maybe even upper class—many of whom don't want to be in the military and whose aspirations are entirely civilian and perhaps already successful—which brings a broader perspective and more choices of companions.
  
  

• SeanRenaud said on May 03, 2007....

  First off comparing this war to Nam is stupid.  Al Queda is no where near the level of combat ready that te Vietcong were and there is no NVA running around to help.  While roadside bombs and various other traps are possible its not like walking through the jungle where traps (not to mention the occasional tiger) so on and so forth. In short there are a lot of not us reasons why we aren't dying as fast as the older vets.
   
  We might never know (I hope we never know) for sure if a volunteer army is as capable as a draft because the only sure way to know would be to put it to the test and get into a similar war.
   
  My opinion as a Veteran Marine is that draftees lower morale because they don't want to be there.  They won't try to excel as hard because they don't want to be there, they will have less pride because they didn't choose this life.  You might get a few more really gifted people who otherwise would have gone to college but are they going to give you their all?  Not to mention you'll get a whole lot more bottom feeders.
   
  Another thing to consider (and I've never seen stats from back in the day) is that the military (Marines in particular) have a rather high suicide rate.  Today, when everybody who is there chose it.  I can't and don't want to imagine how much higher it would be (or what A VT style massacre would be like on a Military base) if that many more unwilling people were put through the rigamarole.

• silverwhisper said on May 03, 2007....

  sean, people comparing iraq to vietnam are referring to the political, not tactical, similarities.
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on May 03, 2007....

  Are draftees made of tougher stuff? I don't know. During the height of the Vietnam War we lost an average of 5000 people per year. Right now we're averaging less than a thousand a year occupying a nation of 24 million. While every war fatality is tragic, we must be doing some things better now with all volunteers than Vietnam, a war in which many did not want to be.
   
   
  That's from Curmudgen a few posts before me.

• curmudgeon said on May 03, 2007....

  Sean - early on in the Iraq and Afghanistan occupations there were several attempts by whomever is fighting with us to overrun our bases. They all failed - not only due to lack of combat readiness on the part of our opponents but also due to our increased abilities at calling in air support. and repelling attacks.
   
  We haven't been facing military regulars in Iraq because we wasted Saddam's Army in a matter of weeks. Had we not done that, we'd be facing a two-pronged force.
   
  And apart from the capture of Jessica Lynch and her cohorts, how many American soldiers have been captured? Is this really only due to a lack of competence on the part of Al Qaeda? I doubt it.
   
  I think we have indeed learned many lessons from our experience in Vietnam. People in our military study lessons learned from every conflict we get into, and I think we're losing fewer people today because of it.
   
  Why is it lame to learn from history?

• SeanRenaud said on May 03, 2007....

  Its not lame, it just didn't really happen. There are so many different factors here that its not even funny.  We didn't really crush Saddam's army, they rolled over, there is a drastic difference between us slaughtering them, and them not fighting back.
   
  Not many soldiers have been captured, but seriously its a little difficult to sneak up on somebody in the fucking desert.  Its like comparing a game of hide and seek in a crowed ware house to fucking football field.

• Boonsketti said on May 04, 2007....

  When I played airsoft back home I ran into a bunch of Marines. They whipped my ass, they were really good at infantry stuff. They were also sort of disconcertingly pissed. As we passed by another truck on a narrow road, which cleared us unnecessarily by only a couple of inches, the driver of the truck, a Marine, said, "It's a good thing he didn't graze my truck, or I would've stepped out and fucking STABBED THAT MOTHERFUCKER. Fucking with the WRONG PERSON, fucking CUNT." Not chill. I think he's in Baghdad as we speak.
  

• Dunedin said on May 04, 2007....

  SR said:
  First off comparing this war to Nam is stupid.  Al Queda is no where near the level of combat ready that te Vietcong were and there is no NVA running around to help.  While roadside bombs and various other traps are possible its not like walking through the jungle where traps (not to mention the occasional tiger) so on and so forth. In short there are a lot of not us reasons why we aren't dying as fast as the older vets.
  
  I thought this, except for the tiger part, when Curm made his first comment. Though I tend to use less abrasive language.
  
  
  SR said:
  My opinion as a Veteran Marine is that draftees lower morale because they don't want to be there.  They won't try to excel as hard because they don't want to be there, they will have less pride because they didn't choose this life.  You might get a few more really gifted people who otherwise would have gone to college but are they going to give you their all?  Not to mention you'll get a whole lot more bottom feeders.
  
  That sounds reasonable. From the POV of the military as a whole, volunteer troops provide a more stable backbone.
  
  But from the POV of the penniless egghead who joined the military so it will pay for his college or who just wants to learn valuable skills for free or see the world, he would most likely benefit from the added diversity and non-military minds that come with a draft military.
  
  
  Boon said:
  They were also sort of disconcertingly pissed. As we passed by another truck on a narrow road, which cleared us unnecessarily by only a couple of inches, the driver of the truck, a Marine, said, "It's a good thing he didn't graze my truck, or I would've stepped out and fucking STABBED THAT MOTHERFUCKER. Fucking with the WRONG PERSON, fucking CUNT."
  
  Which perfectly illustrates the point about the egghead. Who has time to be around people like this? They are good for warring and not much else.
  
  

• SeanRenaud said on May 04, 2007....

  For the record I wouldn't be entirely against a draft if the definition were extended to mean government service.  Which could include everything from military, post office, to teaching in public schools or anything else that our tax dollars go towards.

• TheBeastHeMetCa said on Jun 15, 2007....

   The Marines was better when it had clear male and female class separation and when the Marines had beltstrap discipline in the brig as a way to shape up men they impressed into mandated service, such as used to be punk toughs from civil court ordered into prison or military services. When the Marines was a tool, like the other services , for developing men and good men out of corrupt loosers, I advocate a male benevolence and give em hell drill instructor leadership real and true american national change. Get our tough punks in reform.

• anonymous said on Jul 31, 2009....

  This is a bit of research on the topic. click the link below. http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm

• curmudgeon said on Aug 05, 2009....

  Seems to me that having a bunch of folks in the military - talented as they might be - who really don't want to be there would make the military services less effective overall, not more. Besides, we'd have to waste time chasing after larger numbers of deserters and watching for those who would commit mayhem in the ranks. How many anti-war parents and high schools and colleges now opposed to hosting J/ROTC programs would protest loud and long to keep their kids from entering? Is a draft system really worth all that aggravation?
   
  An all-volunteer military may have its shortcomings, but a draft system would probably hurt the nation more than help it.

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 05, 2009....

  For the record public schools should be mandated to allow J/ROTC.  They should get no say whatsoever in it.

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