• silverwhisper said on May 01, 2007....

  honestly, i haven't witnessed a legitimate instance of PC creating a problem in my own life in well over a decade.
  
  i think that social conservatives like PCness. it gives them each their own individual, personal bugbear.
  
  ed

• lioneljay said on May 01, 2007....

  See, that's my feeling on this too. I don't think that pc has had anywhere near the negative impact that the social conservatives like to claim. It's as if they cannot be happy unless they have an enemy to denounce.

• MissMimi said on May 01, 2007....

  Well, I have been crippled, disabled, and mobility impaired. Is it a problem? It just makes me laugh.

• lioneljay said on May 01, 2007....

  So, whaddya saying there, gimpy? ;)

• MissMimi said on May 01, 2007....

  Listen here, you old geezer, who you callin' gimpy? :D

• lioneljay said on May 01, 2007....

  Now, don't run over me with those big wheels of yours, kiddo. I'm proud to be a geezer, but mostly 'cause I'm not a wheezer.

• beyondtheveil said on May 01, 2007....

  It hasn't affected my life at all- unless you consider eye rolling.

• BlueHotRage said on May 01, 2007....

  I think the troglodytes who call themselves "conservatives" just don't want to be forced to be polite--which they probably think is what being "politically correct" means, because it has "politic" in it (which they perhaps associate with Big Government).
   
  Here's a little story about concerning the "PC" issue:
   
  A relative of mine was attending college in Houston, TX about 25 years ago--and she actually heard one of her classmates talking about how his boss "jewed [him] out of [his] salary."  Being that my relative was a Jewish New York woman, and unwilling to take that sort of insult lightly, she turned around and told the guy that she was Jewish, that his use of the name as a negative verb was offensive to her, and that she didn't want to hear him say anything like that again.
   
  So the guy mutters, "Sorry 'bout that" and then goes back to talking with his acquaintence--and goes on to say how "white" it was for a friend of his to help jump-start a stranger's car.  Being that my relative was also (at a very young age) involved in the Civil Rights movement, she turned around again and told the guy (louder than last time--which got everyone's attention) that using "white" as a synonym for "good" is rude and racist, and asked him to knock it off.
   
  So, because everybody in the classroom was distracted from their studies and staring at that idiot (and some of the students were black), he gets all embarrassed and shuts up, but he keeps giving my relative an indignant sort of evil-eye--like how dare she tell him what not to say and make people see how rude he was and, as a result, judge him to be an ass.
   
  No, as I see it, that's not really what conservatives call "political correctness"--it's determined by politically correct standards, to be sure, but it's not enforced by any governing institution.  It's actually public socio-behavioral correction.
   
  Example: If some guy says stupid stuff that makes him look like an ass, and those comments are made in public (where not everyone will necessarily agree with what is said), then the guy runs the risk of people judging him to be an ass.  And if they do, then the guy will likely learn NOT to say stuff that will make people think he's an ass.
   
  And so long as he doesn't threaten to kill anyone, the worst people can do is judge him to be an ass--until he takes it back or makes up for it.  And at least asses can be re-educated.
   
  I don't know how much of that makes sense, but I'm to understand that "political correctness" is more socially determined, rather than institutionally.  If anything institutional is "politically correct" in nature, I think it's because people collectively worked to make it so.

• MissMimi said on May 01, 2007....

  LJ, don't look now, but one of the little ad blurbs on this post is a link to Ann Coulter's website. Ew.

• Eilan said on May 01, 2007....

  The Highway Patrol added multicultural/sensitivity training to its academy coursework.  My husband had to pick up this training during inservices.
  
  Also--the Patrol stopped calling referring to incidents in which troopers used mace, tasers, etc as "use of force" incidents and started calling them "response to resistance" incidents.
  
  That's all I got, really.
  

• MissMimi said on May 01, 2007....

  One of my sisters has a Master's in Diversity Education. She is a Certified Diversity Professional. She teaches people how to be politically correct. Well, I think there's a little more to it than that. At least I hope there is.

• curmudgeon said on May 01, 2007....

  Speaking as a "troglodyte"conservative, political correctness really doesn't bug me because it's necessarily inoffensive.
   
  However, what does bug me is the double standard.
   
  It's politically correct to denigrate whites, white men, conservatives, Christians, Christian conservatives, straight men, and any permutation of the above. It is NOT politically correct to denigrate blacks, hispanics, lesbians, asians, gays, and a whole host of other "oppressed" minorities. It is also politically correct for non-whites such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to utter blatantly racist comments and get away with it while white folks who say similar things are excoriated.
   
  It's not the correctness in itself that bugs me. It's the rank hypocrisy and utterly arbitary way this "correctness" is applied. If it's not ok to denigrate some people, those who say it's not all right to say this or that about others should look at themselves and what they do.
   
  Troglodyte indeed.

• uniquely-ironic said on May 01, 2007....

  I've had to endure PC courses at various employers.  When the CEO of our company bought See's chocolates for Christmas, we had to very use the very PC term "Happy Holidays" on the card that went with it.  I have worked with people who were hired because of their ethnicity and not their ability, which brings the level of everyone's work down.  My male boss will often ask if I'm offended by a joke that could be construed as female bashing, even though it is just that, a joke.  My own job title, Administrative Assistant, is the PC version of secretary, which I much prefer.
   
  PC is more of a democratic tool IMHO.  It is the liberal's way of trying to level the playing field, when the fact of the matter is, life is not a level field.

• KayRoseOrchid said on May 01, 2007....

  I see political correctness in the media and in real life situations where we are talking about current events. I think being politically correct is something that demonstrates one's repect for humanity.
  
  It does seem like whites are expected to be politically correct at all times, while non-whites don't have to be.
  

• bloc said on May 01, 2007....

  The worst part to me is that the "conservatives" are the biggest proponents of PC crap. Did you say Iraq was a mistake, "how dare you. you are hurting our troops". Did you say the President lied, "how dare you, you are helping the terrorists". Did you say that we aren't really trying to spread democracy by repealing habeas corpus, "How dare you, you are a traitor".
  

• bloc said on May 01, 2007....

  @curm
  There are cultural issues that make some things different, i.e. white jokes vs black jokes. It's a hard line to balance, and I don't think it's nearly as bad as you suggest.
  

• mom said on May 01, 2007....

  Ok I am a conservative and I hate PC, it is so stupid and causes more hate and discontent.

• lioneljay said on May 01, 2007....

  BTV, as far as I can tell, you and I have been affected by the so-called pc movement in about the same way.
  
  BHR - I think that the incident you cited gets at the core of the kinds of things that some people have tried to minimize by promoting more neutral language.
  
  Mimi, thanks, I really needed that. :rolleyes:
  
  Eilan, did your husband find that the training the officers experienced made any kind of difference?
  
  Mimi, what sort of learners does your sister work with?
  
  Curm, I really didn't want to get into a discussion of the merits of political correctness but rather the degree in which it affects our everyday lives. I'm not excited about some of the bland and neutral language that I see either, but that's a value judgment that I didn't want to get into here. So the question is still on the table: has political correctness affected you in any way? And based on your first paragraph, I am guessing that the answer is no.
  
  Uniquely, let's not confuse affirmative action with politically correct speech. While the two may have related origins, I see them as quite separate issues. The "Happy Holidays" message is one that I think most of us see regularly. That does represent a neutralizing of ideas done for the express convenience of the sender under the guise of being sympathetic to different beliefs.
  
  KRO, could you elaborate on your point about whites being required to be more politically correct than non-whites, please?
  
  Bloc, I think that once again you have cut to the chase. The whole pc-language issue rests on a belief that what we say can upset others in untold ways. However, I think that when conservatives try to bludgeon liberals for speaking their minds it's more a matter of using a rhetorical trick to preach to the choir.

• MissMimi said on May 01, 2007....

  They are seminars geared toward the business community and university staff and faculty.

• Eilan said on May 01, 2007....

  Not really, LJ.  Most of them saw it as another hoop to jump through.  Like sexual harassment training.

• CreativeWoman said on May 01, 2007....

  I don't have a lot to add to the discussion except to say that I think political correctness goes too far sometimes.  I once saw a collection of fairy tales that had been rewritten to make them politically correct.  I thought that was a little much.
  
  CW
  

• lioneljay said on May 01, 2007....

  Mimi, thanks for the additional info.
  
  Eilan, I'm not at all surprised. I think of myself as a fairly open person and yet I found harassment training to be a complete waste of time.
  
  CW, you reminded me of one place where I've seen pc language that bothered me: in hymnals. The latest edition of the Methodist Hymnal includes several hymns that have been modified with gender-neutral language. Sorry, but that just spoils the poetry for me.

• CreativeWoman said on May 01, 2007....

  lionel,
  That's exactly how I feel.  I like some traditions to remain.
  
  CW
  

• rightwingwizard said on May 02, 2007....

  I was disinclined to reply to this post as it was clear from the beginning the your intent was to heap insult upon a group of people with whom you tend to disagree.  You made it quite clear through subsequent comments that you were in no way interested in a discussion of politcal correctness as a 'form'   In keeping with your original intent I will refrain from discussing the substance of the matter.  Therefore I have nothing more to say.  You wouldn't understand!
   
  rww
   
   

• silverwhisper said on May 02, 2007....

  rww, would it be fair to say that you're largely in agreement with curmudgeon's comments?
  
  ed

• rightwingwizard said on May 02, 2007....

  silver:  That would be a fair assessment.
   
  rww

• silverwhisper said on May 02, 2007....

  thank you.
  
  ed

• rightwingwizard said on May 02, 2007....

  Actually there are times when I find 'political correctness' offensive.
   
  One example is 'Native American'   My family has been  on this continent for at least eighteen generations.  At what point do we stop being considered interlopers and start being considered native to this land?
   
  rww

• KayRoseOrchid said on May 02, 2007....

  LJ~ The best way I suppose I can explain what I was thinking : a white person cannot use the "n" word, whereas black people can. Or Imus saying what he said and then Sharpton and Jackson chiming in when they have said things just as bad. Maybe I misunderstood the whole PC issue *shrugs*

• lioneljay said on May 02, 2007....

  RWW, I'm sorry that my meaning was not clear from the original post. I wanted the discussion to be about the reality of the impact of political correctness - whatever that impact has been - and not about perceptions. That's why I asked for specific examples of pc language that has had an impact on people's live. I'm not here to "heap insult upon a group of people with whom [I] tend to disagree" but rather to discuss the origins of the perception that pc language is damaging our society. As I stated elsewhere here, I'm not particularly fond of some of the pc language that I've encountered. Please don't judge me without reading me carefully.
  
  Now, you mentioned the term "Native American" and then asked when your people would stop being considered interlopers. I can appreciate your reaction to the idea that you're interlopers but it seems to me that the very term "Native Americans" was coined in order to break down the perception of you're being interlopers. I'd be interested in hearing how you feel that this term continues the misconception of being interlopers.

• lioneljay said on May 02, 2007....

  KRO, I get your meaning now. Thanks.

• KayRoseOrchid said on May 02, 2007....

  LJ~ I am glad it made sense! 

• rightwingwizard said on May 02, 2007....

  lionel:  The term was coined for the express purpose of re-enforcing the notion that my ancestors were, therefore my generation are interlopers.
   
  rww
   

• lioneljay said on May 02, 2007....

  RWW, now I'm entirely confused. It looks to me like the term is meant to convey that your people were the original Americans, with the clear implication that the Europeans were the interlopers. What do you know about this term that isn't clear to others?

• rightwingwizard said on May 02, 2007....

  lionel:  Before  I address your most recent question allow me to correct something you said in your first response to my comments.  You claim that you had no intent to heap insult onto a group if individuals with whom you tend to disagree.  Do you recall the following statements?
  I wonder if it hasn't become something of a cliché to cry "pc" whenever a conservative is unhappy with life.
  yet if the conservatives hold it to be such a powerfully damaging force in our society, perhaps I'm just blind.
  However, I think that when conservatives try to bludgeon liberals for speaking their minds it's more a matter of using a rhetorical trick to preach to the choir.
  I don't think that pc has had anywhere near the negative impact that the social conservatives like to claim. It's as if they cannot be happy unless they have an enemy to denounce.
  I only ask that you be intelectually honest.   Were these statements meant as compliments to those with whom  you tend to disagree?    Not likely!  It is clear that your motivation was to take a whack at conservatives in general.  And since you stated that you didn't want to discuss political correctness as such, merely how the use of same has directly affected the lives of individuals there was little room for inteligent discourse.  Have I lost or been denied a job because of political corectness. No.  Have I been denied access to any facilities genreally open to the public because of the use of political correctness?  No.  But these are not the ways  one is truely affected by the neutralization of the language are they?
  But you don't want to discuss that.  No, you just want to use political correctness as a weapon with which to bludgeon those with whom you tend to disagree.
   
  Now as to my heratage.  Actually when I said at least 18 generations I might have been a bit conservative in my estimate.  But allow me to clarify for you who I am.  My ancestors arrived on this continent in 1607, that is 400 years ago.  How long does a people have to live in a place before they can be considered native to that place?  I submit that if one is white, anglo-saxon and protestant there will be no time when we can be considered native to the land in which we have lived, raised our families and built a society.  I further submit that the term white interloper is used exclusively with reference to white angol-saxon protestants.  My family has been here for 400 years, I think it is time that we be considered native to this land.
  I anticipate that in your sensitivity to the feelings of others you will agree.
   
  rww

• cotteralladams2 said on May 02, 2007....

  Being of a more classical liberal than leftist bent, I have never appreciated it in the classroom.  In the next few months, I will register for an archaeology course.  I might start anthropology in May.  I hope it goes well.  Years ago, I had to endure the political correctness of my teacher in Social Work.  He was a former activist.  Now I realize there is a lot of racism and sexism out there, but it is better to talk about it than to ignore it.  With these people you can never win:  I could claim that I am against nuclear proliferation but favour nuclear energy as a clean source for the environment and I am some eco-Nazi, while people drive their SUVs around.  Now they have discovered ethanol-based fuel, up to eighty-five percent, and it's cheaper.  It will be 'bad for the farmers because corporations will move in'.

  If I suggest that one of the reasons kids are messed up today is because they don't have their fathers, I am 'against women', ignoring that single mothers often complain that the fathers of their kids do not marry them, pay child support or see the kids.  Hmmm....also the lectures of how it was good for homeless people to wander around on the streets, addicted to drugs, engaging in conflicts, stealing and most of them had addictions, mental illnesses and disabilities.  Most were desperately poor.  If I suggest taking them off the streets and putting them into institutions, detox centers and group homes, I get in trouble. If I make a case for more funding towards Social Services and suggest that they get help with financial issues and probation instead of jail, then I get cheers, but it's the same response in a different way.  I don't blame them and have made this case for years.  The same people who criticize me tell me I'm right later.  I don't get it.  I pro-choice, in favour of same-sex marriage, supportive of ecological preservation, deeply pacifist.  But make a case for capitalist market reform--e.g. no more sales taxes, private health care, free trade, etc.  and you are something out of Jerry Falwell's cult of evangelical Christians.

   If I suggest that if you choose to have sex with someone and don't bother to use a condom, that is not the fault of the law or society because you put yourself at risk, I am being unfair.  I get tired of their hypocrisy.  A lot of points in one. 

  When I go to class, I want to learn about the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Revolution, WWII, social changes since the sixties, the history of the Holy Land, and East African society.  We have to study Peking Man and the ancient pyramids and bones from the Great Rift Valley, but I don't want to hear about how Masai and Somali culture are superior to our own, because they are not Western and all Western influences are bad, the cause of all misery, and their cultures, pure and untainted, are superior.  Well, look at how communism, Islamic governments, martial law, Robert Mugabe and anarchy in Somalia have turned out.

• bloc said on May 02, 2007....

  @rww
  Unfortunately our laziness gets the better of us at times. It's hard to always distinguish those that sling vitriol (on both sides) from those that want to have an honest discussion. I know that I, in my laziness, us the term conservative at times when I'm only referring to the vitriol slingers. I think lionel did this above.
  

• lioneljay said on May 02, 2007....

  RWW, as far as I can tell, you've quoted my statements fully and accurately. However, I did not mean to be insulting in any of them. The term "politically correct" is often used as a form of invective by folks of the conservative persuasion and it appears, at least to me, that it's often used as a sort of shorthand by conservatives to demean liberals. If these perceptions are not accurate, then please correct me. I meant to neither insult nor compliment but rather to state the case as I see it. If I have exaggerated or otherwise distorted the truth about the way that conservative people use the term "political correctness" I would be interested in hearing from you how I was wrong.
  
  Now, my reason for discussing only the instances where pc language has affected us was an attempt to get at the guts of the issue: whether or not pc language is having the kind of damaging impact on our society that is often claimed for it.
  
  Clearly, I misunderstood your original comment about your reaction to the term "Native American." As others on this blog site appear to be of Native American heritage, I took your statement to mean exactly the opposite of your intent. My apologies.
  
  So let's use "native american" as a case in point. Clearly it was dreamed up to assuage some guilt over the way that the U.S. government has treated those who were here when the Europeans arrived in the 17th century. And apparently it has not worked as well as some might have hoped. While my family is relatively new to the U.S. (all my grandparents came from Canada as adults), I grew up not far from Boston and so knew scores of people whose families had emigrated here well before the revolution. Even dated a young woman whose forebears landed at Plymouth and signed the Declaration of Independence. So I have some sense of the degree to which such people feel that their families have a proud history.
  
  I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this term, "Native American." I don't think that it has accomplished its purpose, at least to the extent that I can divine what that purpose was. And I can empathize easily with those who feel that, like you RWW, that it denigrates the families who worked hard to get this country founded.
  
  The thing is, language is very powerful. And its use definitely cuts both ways. If I were a judge asked to decide on whether or not "Native American" should be used in the U.S., I think that I'd want to see a replacement. However, I don't have a clue what that replacement ought to be. We need words to categorize people in order to speak about them efficiently - that's what language does: it makes thought and communication efficient.
  
  Anyone: if you think this through, where does it take you? What kind of replacement would you suggest for "Native American" if you agree that it is not a useful part of the language? Or do you think that I'm wrong to say that this term is not as effective and useful as it should be?

• lioneljay said on May 02, 2007....

  Cotteralladams2, thanks for your contribution. I hear your gripe, I really do. What sort of college or university do you attend? Is your experience with pc thought limited to history and social science classes or do you encounter it in other areas as well?

• AlisonMarie19 said on May 02, 2007....

  Gonna say this short and sweet.

      It's tree-huggin' hippie crap.

  To quote a movie, or the Simpsons, or something.

                  =(^-^)=   ali m.

  PS This was meant as a light-hearted response to a serious question. Do not get up in arms at me about it. I meant no offense. I just think that people have gone a little too far with some of this PC-ness.

• lioneljay said on May 02, 2007....

  Ali, I take your comment in the spirit that you intended. Since you're a good bit younger than I, can you recall encountering any heavy-duty pc thought and language in recent years?

• rightwingwizard said on May 02, 2007....

  Basically I percieve political correctness as bunk.  Any term used to replace a pejorative has the potential to over time become a pejorative.  Any word or combination of words can and will be spoken by some with the same degree of venom and vitriol as the word or  phrase replaced by same.  If I were to say that you were intelectually challanged would you not understand that I was calling your intelligence into question?  Were I to call you vertically challanged would you not understand that I was calling you a shrimp?  If I called you hygienically challanged I am confident you would undertand that I was calling you a filthy pig.  Since the meaning is clear and under most circumstances the intent is equally clear I fail to comprehend the difference. 
   
  If I use a pejorative I don't think I am being politically incorrect,  I think I am being rude, unpleasant, mean, vile, disgusting, cruel, unthinking, heartless or what ever other adjective that may apply.   Political correctness is an afront to my intelligence.  There is no need to numb the language, there is a need to instilldecency.  That can not be accomplished by camouflaging the intent of the expression with the use in innocous sounding words.  Were I to say African American with clinched teeth and glaring eyes would it be less pejorative than had I used the 'n' word?  I think not, because the intent would be clear, in that case I would be using an otherwise innocuous sounding term as an invective.  Until we correct the underlying emotions that cause us to use 'politically incorrect'  language, no amount of neutralizing of the language itself will make a whit difference.
   
  Just one man's oppinion.
   
  rww

• lioneljay said on May 02, 2007....

  RWW, you made your point very clearly. I cannot disagree with you - at least not from the speaker's point of view. But what about the impact of certain pejorative terms on those for whom they are meant to be an insult?

• rightwingwizard said on May 02, 2007....

  lionel:  Were I to let loose with a string of invectives, expletives and vitriol calling you everything but a human being and not just today, but every time I encountered you what would your reaction be?   I mean in this particular venue, not in person.  We can start there.

• AlisonMarie19 said on May 03, 2007....

  PC-ness is everywhere we go. I can't think of specific examples, but it's still early. Let me think on it for a while, and I'll let you know. :)
                  =(^-^)=   ali m.

• lioneljay said on May 03, 2007....

  AliM, I look forward to whatever you add to the discussion.
  
  RWW, I think we're in agreement. When invectives are used with the intent to harm, and done so with regularity, they damage other people. I firmly believe that this is why certain terms have become anathema and have been replaced by terms that have come to be known as politically correct. Certainly this is the case with such things as the "n word" and other similar terms assigned to ethnic groups.
  
  And I think that this gets close to why it bothers me when some people decry the use of pc speech - sometimes it feels as if they wish they could continue to use racist terminology with impunity. It's as if they feel they have a right to belittle other people and feel disenfranchised of their god-given right to racism.

• botoni said on May 03, 2007....

  An incident for me:
  I preached a sermon based on Onisimus who was a slave. There were women in the congration who had spazz attacks because I preached IN CONTEXT about the lessons involved with th story. Their contention was that mention of slavery was not acceptable in their presence because women were/are perceived negatively as slaves. Therefor they were offended. Lost me! I dont get the relevancy, nor do I understand that a biblical story whether percieved as accurate or as a tale needs to be altered to meet p/c standards.....Likewise hymns that have gender p/c considerations. I was once critiqued for including 'Stand up Stand up for Jesus' in song service because it would offend those who were not able to stand! OMG...folks take a breath and think!

• rightwingwizard said on May 03, 2007....

  Lionel:  I have enjoyed our discussion and I sense that we are not far apart.  There is one sticking point where I think we may never agree.  That is that I truely believe that PC is a sham, farce, hoax, fraud or whatever other synonym there-of you can bring to mind.  It corrects nothing.   It is not the word (in most cases) that offends, it is the intent of the word.   I have a friend who happens to be blind.  He is one of the most fantastic musicians I have had the pleasure of knowing and hearing.  He was also my music theory professor.   One evening he was asked to perform for a banquet and the college president introduced him to the audience after dinner.  The pres was insanely PC.  During his intro he mentioned that my friend was vision impaired.  My friend was quite gracious and played the piano to the delight of all present.  Later I was sitting with him and chatting.  He was incensed about the vision impaired thing.  He said, " I am not vision impaired, I am not visually challanged, I am fucking blind.  Get the fuck over it, I have!"   You see, PC can be as offensive as any other use of language.    Everyone who knew the professor, and knew the president understood that his ivory towereness was ashamed that he had a blind professor on campus.  His use of PC was intended to mask his distain.  Not the word, the intent.
  When all this PC crap started out several years ago I ask one of my black friends what term he would prefer.  I wasn't using the 'n" word anyway, but I was curious.  He said, "Why don't you just call me a man?"  I took his advice, it wasn't difficult because whenever I looked at him that's what I saw.  A man.  He also said "I already know that I'm black, it is not necessary for anyone to remind me."   He hated the term 'african american,  He told me, "When I think of African American I think of an American born in Africa,  my family has been here for generations.  I am an American.  You don't run around calling yourself an Anglo American do you?"  
   
  We don't need PC, we need decency.    One masks a problem, the other solves it.  You decide which.
   
  rww
   
   

• bloc said on May 03, 2007....

  @rww
  I think there is an important aspect of language that you forget. In certain circumstances (corportations, the military, etc) there need to be standards for what is acceptable. People certainly take PC too far, and it's easy to pick out absurdities, but large institutions needs some standards.
  
  Is it too PC to say that male soldiers shouldn't have bunch of porn plastered all over the walls of the motor pool?
  

• rightwingwizard said on May 03, 2007....

  bloc:  No,  that to which you refer is the setting of a moral/ethical standard.  It has nothing to do with PC.  However such an edict would be unnecessry were decency more emphasised.
   
  rww
   

• bloc said on May 03, 2007....

  you emphasize decency by having standards :)
  
  The only way this isn't the same as PC is if you define PC as standards taken to an absurd extreme. If that's the case then there is no point in talking about PC because it is absurd by definition.
  

• rightwingwizard said on May 03, 2007....

  bloc:  We are splitting hairs here, don't ya think?
   
  But let me give you my understanding of PC.   PC is when I want to say something that is socialy unacceptable so I pick some 'kinder gentler' terminology in order to mask my intent.  If you know me, you will see through my mask and be as offended as had I spoken the word(s) I had origionally intended .
   
  So, if I want to call you a jerk, I may as well use the word 'jerk' and get it over with.  Not always a good plan, especially with particularly offensive language.  But my point is, just don't use offensive language. At least try not to, we all slip from time to time.
   
  rww

• rightwingwizard said on May 03, 2007....

  bloc:  Basically what I am saying is that we don't need to neutralize our language in order to mask our intent if we don't have the intent to offend.  That is decency, not PC.  PC is artificial.  Decency is real.
   
  rww

• lioneljay said on May 04, 2007....

  RWW, if I read your next-to-the-last comment accurately, it seems that in your mind everyone who uses PC language does so to mask some ignoble intent. So, to narrow the discussion down to the use of "African American" as an example: it seems that you're saying that everyone who uses the PC term would rather be saying the "n word" but chooses the PC term instead.
  
  I am taking this from the following: "PC is when I want to say something that is socialy unacceptable so I pick some 'kinder gentler' terminology in order to mask my intent. If you know me, you will see through my mask and be as offended as had I spoken the word(s) I had origionally intended ."
  
  Do you really mean that? If so, then we are far from being close on this topic. My understanding is that PC speech, while sometimes overdone, is an attempt to show tolerance and acceptance of other people and to minimize the hurtful impact of previously used group names.
  
  Now in your next comment you clarified somewhat to say that "we don't need to neutralize our language in order to mask our intent if we don't have the intent to offend. That is decency..."
  
  Okay, but let me ask you this. If I need to describe a large group of people in a speech, say a graduation address at a high school, how would you suggest that I speak plainly about young men and women who are descendants of black people from Africa? If I wanted to speak about people as a group who are only able to get around on their own in wheelchairs, what word would you have me use? Bear in mind that I have only the best intentions in my speech but in order to make my point forecefully and persuasively, I need to be able to name these groups with a single word or phrase. Tell me how you would have me accomplish my goals.

• rightwingwizard said on May 04, 2007....

  lionel:  We wouldn't need to "show' tolerance were truely tolerant.  So let's work on tolerance, not the 'showing' thereof.
   
  rww

• lioneljay said on May 04, 2007....

  RWW, that's just nonsense. You seem to be saying that people never act in accordance with their true beliefs and maybe that's the problem between our interpretations. Maybe you see PC language as indicative of phony behavior only and that it is never a sincere attempt to demonstrate good faith. I see it the other way around.

• rightwingwizard said on May 04, 2007....

  lionel:  You would use what ever terminology you deemed appropriate.  It still comes down to intent however.  If you choose unoffensive language because you understand that to do otherewise would result in recrimination, that's PC.  If you choose unoffensive language because that is who your are, that's the way you speak, that's decency.  The end result may very well be the same, at least on the surface, but the intent is very much a different matter.
   
  rww

• lioneljay said on May 04, 2007....

  So if I have good intentions but still insist on calling a blind person visually impaired, what do you make of me?

• rightwingwizard said on May 04, 2007....

  lionel:  I think you are someone who speaks as he speaks.  Unless I know you I cannot think otherwise.  If you use that terninology because it is a part of who you are then you are a decent person.  It is when one uses such terminology to mask his feelings that he is a bigot.  He is using PC to hide his bigotry.
   
  rww 

• lioneljay said on May 04, 2007....

  RWW, thanks for the compliment. However, I still don't see how what you say here squares with what you said earlier about PC being merely a mask for when people would otherwise prefer to say something that is socially unacceptable.

• rightwingwizard said on May 04, 2007....

  lionel:  While I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation it is clear that we will never agree on the semantics.  I will give it just one more go.
   
  If you tend to speak and act with decency you have no need to think about what terms you use.  The appropriate terminology will come to you naturally.  That is not PC as being politically correct is of necessity a conscious choice.   If I percieve you as a decent person it doesn't much matter what you call me, even if you call me late for dinner.  If I percieve you as a bigot it doesn't much matter what you call me, I will be suspicious of your intent.
   
  There are certain words that should fall from common use, we agree on that I believe.  Some of them have by and large done so.  It is when you choose to use euphemisms for everything that you become overbearing, therefore offensive.
   
  As to those who would use offensive language, I would prefer the bigot be allowed to declare himself as such.  In that way I can easily identify him.
   
  rww
   
   

• lioneljay said on May 04, 2007....

  RWW, maybe it is mostly semantics that has made our differences seem greater than they are. I don't care for the excesses of pc speech any more than you do, but I think I distrust the motives of these people less than you do.
  
  That said, I remember being a graduate education student in the mid 1970s when the origins of the pc movement were beginning to gel. It turned my stomach to hear some of the rationalizations and the illogic that resulted in the pc movement. It came straight out of the let-the-children-study-whatever-moves-them school of "thought" and frankly I've always been a helluva lot more practical than that.
  
  I think that our common ground is in the dislike of the use of euphemisms for nearly everything of substance that can be said about people. We do seem to be too much in fear of insulting people and in acting this out we take much of the color and strength from our language. As you put it, when pc language invades every corner of one's speech, then it has gone too far.

• bloc said on May 04, 2007....

  @rww
  we are splitting hairs. I agree with what you're saying about being tolerant vs a masking of bad behavior. What I'm saying is that I"ve worked in a lot of large organizations and I've done management. You can't always change people for the better, and some people don't realize that their thoughts are offensive. Because of this we sometimes need standards that often masking rather than improve peoples issues.
  
  PC is certainly taken way to far by many people, but we have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
  

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