Antimatter's tags:
On a whim, I decided to pick up a book on raising children without religion: Parenting Beyond Belief, edited by Dale McGowan. It looks like an interesting read. Here are a few quotes from the margins:

“If you teach a generation of children that they are sinful creatures by nature, that left on their own they are morally corrupt, deserving of eternal torment in Hell, that they are not to be trusted to think their own (selfish, evil) thoughts, all of this can become — has become — a self-fulfilling prophecy.” - Dan Barker

“We must give ourselves a good hard mental swat every time we feel inclined to mock, sneer, or roll our eyes at those whose beliefs differ from our own. You’ll know you’ve failed at this the first time you see your kids mocking or sneering at religious belief.” - Dale McGowan, Ph.D.

“Many people believe that death is probably the final end of all personal experience. … It is precisely the fact that our lives are limited that makes them precious. How we choose to use our time is all the more important when we know that we won’t have the opportunity to do everything.” - Rev. Dr. Kendyl Gibbons


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Comments

  • minniemouse said on Apr 29, 2007....
    Interesting....have you finished the book yet?  Is it pro-religion or anti-religion?  Just curious....I was raised catholic, yet I have chosen not to raise my kids in organized religion.  Would be interested to hear more about your read!  :-)
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 29, 2007....
    i've never understood why the religious seem to think that they possess a monopoly on ethical or moral behavior.

    ed
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 29, 2007....
    correction: that should have said "why some of the religious". i've encountered plenty of religious folk who aren't that myopic.

    ed
  • beyondtheveil said on Apr 29, 2007....
    antimatter- We never bought a book on parenting. The only thing we obtained was information on caring for an infant with the firstborn. The fact there is a book out like you bought infers books on parenting consentrate on the religious experience. Is this true?
  • tbs230 said on May 01, 2007....
    Well I'm religious. But I don't think you have to be religious to teach your kids right from wrong. Or tolerance for that matter. Minnie brings up a good question. Is it pro- or anti-religion?
  • anonymous said on May 03, 2007....
    It's neither.  The book is a resource for nonreligious parents who wish to raise their children without religious indoctrination, giving them the freedom to think for themselves on the big questions.  So it's nonreligious, but not anti-religious.
  • thenack said on May 24, 2007....
    Antimatter, do they explain in great philosophical evolutionary ways why morality should exist without a God?  Whos morality, Hitler? Wh would you say he was wrong, because he chose to participate in evolution?
     
    the fist quote is utter nonsense, ever since prayer was taken out of public schools in America, the statistics have shown that if you remove God and replace Him with evolution, kids will end up getting pregnant, doing drugs and shooting "weaker" kids, as could be expected from kids who believe they are pond-scum-to-monkeys-with pants-on. The exact opposite is true as can be seen from history.
     
    God created us in His immage and He wants us to live a life worthy of Him and His calling, how on earth can that be wrong. Perhaps you should find proper church doctrine from the bible, many churches are flawed and any person who mocks or sneers at another religion is missing the point of Christianity. However seeing as to how many of the people on soulcast and in this post has sneered, called me names and mocked me for my belief, I feel justified to point out the irrationality of evolution and atheism, even though I believe many of them are sincere and honest good people.
     
     
  • anonymous said on May 24, 2007....
    And why would atheists adopt the morals of Hitler, who was Catholic?  If you wish to use extremist examples, use Stalin, who actually was an atheist.
     
    Better yet, throw them both out.  Most religious people are nothing like Hitler, and most nonreligious people are nothing like Stalin, so invoking them does not serve the search for genuine understanding.
     
    The vast majority of nonreligious folks and the vast majority of religious folks live according to good moral principles.  They do so by reasoning between the moral examples presented to them.
     
    For example:  Religious people must choose among biblical precepts that are good (honor Mom and Dad, don't kill, love your neighbor) and those that are bad (hate Mom and Dad, kill disobedient children, and enslave your neighbor [Lk 14:26, Deut 21:18-21, Lev 25:44 respectively]).   Fortunately they have very little difficulty deciding which of the holy orders to disobey.
     
    How do they decide?  Same way atheists do.  They think.
     
    Moral development is a completely comprehensible process.  Let's stop stoning each other and realize that the religious and nonreligious alike are trying , however imperfectly, to build a better world.
  • Antimatter said on May 24, 2007....

    I recently saw an interview of Richard Dawkins in which he argued quite successfully that religious people do not base their “morals” on their religious texts. Instead, they base their ethics on the exact same source as atheists — a constantly shifting consensus of ethical behavior. They then use that standard as a filter to find support in their own religious text, ignoring the portions that disagree.

    For example, slavery, racism, and sexism are widely condemned in the United States and much of Western society. Christianity has adapted to find Biblical support for those positions while ignoring or explaining away the portions that appear to advocate slavery, racism, or sexism. For the same reason, Jewish and Christian practitioners do not follow the Old Testament laws that mandate a death penalty for trivial offenses.

    Unfortunately, I haven’t had much time to read much of Parenting Beyond Belief yet. There are a couple books ahead of it on my reading list.

  • bloc said on May 24, 2007....
    Dawkins is spot on.
  • thenack said on May 25, 2007....

    Dawkins is an idiot, I have seen video tapes of him , the high priest of evolution, not being able to answer even the simplest questions. But sometimes he is honest at least, Dawkins was one of the first to admit that atheism and therefore with it evolution, is a religion. You can look it up yourself, he said it.

     

    Anonymous, I agree that religious people will also adapt to acceptable ethical standards, thats fine. I am saying there should be a baseline, and there is no way that baseline came from thin air, as evolution proposes. God gave it, we mess it up. The point I am making with Hitler is that he followed what evolution preached, I very happy that most evolutionists don't, but he did. I a Christian does something wrong, he does it because he is NOT adhering to Christian teaching, which is the other way around. People can not decide what is moral by thinking alone, because A. we are not only thoughts, and B, this is relative and won't work, because we are all different, and with different goals. So thinking alone is not enough. Hitler thought, he had a goal that drove those thoughts, evolution gave him that freedom. (as a side note, catholic is pretty much not Christian in my opinion. Christian is someone who believes the scriptures, not change them. and no I am not condemning all catholics, but the catholic church.)

     

    Anti, Salver, racism and sexism are condemned by the bible, why do you condemn them, on what basis. Slavery for instance was opposed in England by a Creationist, William Wilberforce, because he didn't think for himself, but throught t what the bible teaches.

     

    If Christains base their ethics on what people think is cool, they are on dangerous territory, What people think is a very stupid way of deciding what is morally acceptable, really, look at history.

     

    Whats so bad with moral extremism anyway,

     

    whats wrng with only sleeping with my wife, and not lusting after porn or other men or women? Won't you want such a husband?

     

    Whats wrong with not gettign stoned or drunk and swearing and shouting and breaking?

     

    whats wrong with not stealing? do you like to get stolen from?

     

    Whats wrong with not killing unborn babies, or children, or strangers for money? It could have happened to you

     

    Whats wrong with being a straight manly man of God, or a feminine women? Why are these things being opposed?

     

    Whats wrong with believing that God loves you and knows whats best, having the faith to trust Him to know better, instead of struggeling through life always worrying?

     

    Whats wrong with searching for truth, instead of what fits with what you want NOW?

     

    Whats wrong with multiracial relationships and freandships, the bible teaches it? Who were men to oppose it?

     

    I could go on all day, what are your morals, will they be the same tommorow and what if you were wrong today? Who is going to take the blame, or the bad results.

     

    And finally, statistcs show a extremely strong correlation between moral decay and taking God out of churches and replacing Him with evolution. If you don't believe me , look up some dates and numbers yourself, be truthfull and objective, if you like free thinking and science so much, go and do some of it for yourself.

  • silverwhisper said on May 25, 2007....
    nack, if you're gonna make the extraordinary and IMV highly dubious claim that taking god out of churches (i assume you meant schools?) and moral decay, link the evidence yourself. it's your argument: you can do your own homework. :>

    ed
  • shiningstar said on May 28, 2007....
    Thenack;  funny thing ,  most of us have never considered doing any of those things.  Teach a child to NOT steal or kill because you think he has just got to definately be born with that on his mind(or her).  Children should be adored and loved not taught that they are low down,  somethings called sinners.  How degrading for anyone to call a Divine Intelligence's son or daughter that they are such a thing as a worthless sinner. How would we like it if others called our children that? I,  for one,  salute anyone, anywhere that would seek to end that practice.  www.optioninstitute.com has excellent books on raising children AND parents.
  • kelly said on May 28, 2007....
    "Whats so bad with moral extremism anyway,"

    What's so bad about that is it leads to intolerance, hate and terrorism.

    And who is arguing for taking god out of the churches?  That's exactly where it belongs.  Do you make this stuff up?
  • kelly said on May 28, 2007....
    Oh, by the way, of all the things Richard Dawkins is, idiot is not among them.
  • shiningstar said on May 29, 2007....
    The old is hard to give up ,as Jesus proved.  No one likes their beliefs given to them by their culture,  parents and societies to be challenged.  But it is easy to see that somethings not working for us and if beliefs change the world we sure need some new ones.
  • lfbno7 said on Jun 09, 2007....
    I brought up my kids without religion, obviously, since I don't believe in bullshit myself.  It didn't do any good.  When your kids get to be teenagers they don't give a shit what their parents believe anyway.
  • shiningstar said on Jun 09, 2007....
    I believe the trick is to allow children to just be who they are without judgement.  It is the "without judgement" that gets us down religious upbringing or not. Since we all want to be who we are without judgement would it not be great to allow others the same thing?  As parents we often "expect"  our children to be one way ot the other.  Seldom do they meet this altered thinking way of looking at them. Sometimes this creates a space between parents and children where the children no longer will talk to the parents.  They know that the parents will always see them as "wrong".  If we could just let that go it would work better to build a relationship.  It is better to be loved than to be  "right".  Love and Blessings.
  • Antimatter said on Jun 09, 2007....
    I will not talk to my parents about religion for exactly that reason, shiningstar. It’s a shame too. Should I ever have children, I want them to feel they can talk to me about anything, including their choice to follow a religion. The book is more about secular parenting than atheistic parenting — teaching children to evaluate beliefs critically rather than “by [blind] faith.”
  • shiningstar said on Jun 10, 2007....
    Antimatter. Welcome to the homes of the world where parents cannot figure out why they are the last to know anything about their own children. We have reaped the rewards of the false teachings that lead us, as parents , to use our power to suppress and mold our children and teach them to respect parents and peers but never living a life of respect towards and for them. We have been taught that it is all right to use our "bigness" in size to tower over the little ones and "make" them do as we say to do. We teach them to be the "bully" when they have any advantage over another in their world. And we also reap many circumstances whereas children walk away with child molesters and are easy prey for those who represent them selves as people "of the cloth" but are not. For the children have been taught to "obey" their parents and peers, anyone bigger or older than themselves and have no barriers built up to do otherwise than to follow and obey.If you want your children to talk to you treat them like equals and respect wahat they have to say, how they are being and do not talk down to them. Treat everyone like the President and be the President yourself with love and respect for all life.

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