silverwhisper's tags:
a comment by brokenandused on recent blog entry on CW’s blog page sparked a question about agnosticism, so i figured a little primer on the matter might be useful.

at its heart, agnosticism is one of three philosophical positions regarding the existence of god. the other two positions, theism (the belief that there is a god) and atheism (the belief that there is no god) are pretty straightforward. the stance of the agnostic is that there may or may not be a good, or that there is no way to be certain that god exists.

as always when i write one of these, i began by reviewing the wikipedia entry.

wikipedia quoth:
agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of god or gods; or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge.


this is more or less consistent with the position as i learned it in high school & college. one might view theism, agnosticism and atheism as three positions on a scale regarding the belief of god and/or supernatural forces, where agnosticism is a middle position between the extreme ends of theism and atheism.

in philosophy, the ability to prove through deductive logic is what is paramount. there is, when you come right down to it, no way to prove or disprove logically the existence of god*. if there were, whole centuries of people much smarter than you or me put together have failed to find it.

but so what?

there are truths that simply transcend this limited tool that we call logic. when a child says to his mother “i love you”, we know that’s true. when a friend offers a well-timed and desperately-needed laugh, we know that friendship is a great thing. when i look at my wife in a particular way, she knows that i love her. yet, none of these can really be proven deductively. and there are a whole host of things that we know intuitively, not deductively.

one might reasonably ask, in light of the foregoing, why i am an agnostic if i accept the notion that deductive logic can be trumped, and that’s a reasonable question. i don’t know about you, but my own exposure to theism is almost exclusively in the context of christianity, and the simple truth is that every single christian i know has had a moment when they felt something that could pour a balm bountifully on the wounds upon their souls. that “thing”, for lack of a better term, is something i’ve never known. i’ve looked earnestly for it, but never once have i found it—at least, not in that way.

and this is why i’m an agnostic: i cannot prove or disprove it, and this source has never made itself known to me despite my having sought it earnestly.



so what’s your philosophical stance: theist, agnostic, atheist? does the notion of deduction being trumped make you nod or shake your head in disbelief? or perhaps i’m merely slightly hungover from last night? comment and let me know.

ed

*if you feel i’m mistaken and you have an argument grounded in deductive logic—either way—kindly make the argument. i think i’ve seen all of ‘em but hey, you never know.

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Comments

  • curmudgeon said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I'm basically a theist. I spent some years not believing, not practicing any particular religion, reading about other religions, questioning my own thoughts.
     
    I understand that although I cannot "rationally" prove that God exists, it's something I choose to believe. I agree with you that there's more to our life experience than mere logic and rationality.
     
    And yes, as you state, I have had experiences within the Christian context that resonate within me to the point where I choose to "throw in" with Christians.
  • skald said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Good post. We can not prove that god exists and we can not prove the opposite. It is a very poor man in spirit who only believes in material things and what he sees.

    People who say they don't belive in god, call him in a moment of need.
  • MissMimi said on Apr 24, 2007....
    It's been a number of years since I actively practiced any religion, but I do believe in God, and I do believe in the power of prayer. There have been several times when I have been ill enough that I might have died, and I believe that the strength of the prayers said for me helped turn the corner. I can't prove it, but I absolutely believe it.
  • raft said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I've got an opportunistic attitude to the whole question. I've been brought up RC. Like Curmudgeon, I've spent years not practicing and not really believing.

    With my children, I've gone back. A lot of it is by rote and for the children's sake. I find myself enjoying the time in church, listening to the sermon and taking the time to think on the subject at hand. I often do not agree with the priest, but since I don't take the time to reflect on these subjects often enough. It's not entirely bad.

    Do I believe in God? I can't prove that he doesn't exist, so why not edge my bet? Who knows what happens when one dies?


  • beyondtheveil said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Ed- I fall into that "not knowing with certainty" category.
     
     Many years of an interest in science has taught me there is very little we truly understand about the universe and what goes on around us. This leaves open an infinite range of possibilities.
     
    One thing I do feel certain about is that if there is a God, you and I will not be punished for our search for the truth.
  • muckpar said on Apr 24, 2007....
    SW:  You might find this interesting reading since you are an agnostic.
     
         The Case For A Creator by Lee Strobel
     
             Me I am a theist, a born again Christian.
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I usually self-identify as either agnostic or Christian although neither one really applies. Deism is probably the closest proper description.

    I believe in God almost without a doubt, although only in a vaguely monotheistic way. Other trappings of religion such as a soul or life after death I don't really believe in.


  • Eilan said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Agnostic.
  • fearing said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I am a Christian.  I believe God to exist with every ounce of my being.  
    Ed,  I would not have guessed that you are agnostic.

  • silverwhisper said on Apr 24, 2007....
    curmudgeon: there's little i can say but nod, sir.

    skald: honestly, i don't call on god in times of need. but i definitely agree that an obsession with material things is bad.

    mimi: i find that belief gives people power. :>

    raft: ah, pascal's wager...well do i recognize it. funny, i'd think you'd get your fill of such discussions elsewhere. ?

    beyond: "and i will not be punished for our search of the truth"--so very well said, sir.

    muckpar: i believe i'm familiar with that work. IIRC, it's a meditation on the ontological argument, no?

    TS: have you had the opportunity to consider what your belief means and what demands it might place on you?

    eilan: i don't believe i've ever seen you so terse. :>

    fearing: o, i knew you were a theist. and apparently, it does surprise people when i tell them that, although i'm never clear on why that is.

    ed
  • genalonewolf said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I do not know what to believe in. Faith was pushed on me as a child and I learned to hate to go to church. Do I believe in god? I would have to say no. Do I think there is a chance that something greater than humans is out there? Maybe.
     
    As for me personally, I haved lived trying to be the best person I can be for others. I help when I can and I give when I can. I don't shut the door when the Mormons come to the door. I listen to what they have to say. I try not to hate anyone and love where it is needed.
     
    Now Skald said that a man is in very poor spirit when all he believes in is what he sees and material things. Does that make me a poor man in spirits? I would like to think not. I would like to think that my spirit is high and it got that way from living a clean and wholsome life, which I have trieds to do for many years.
     
    These are just my views and in no way am trying to stand in the way of anyones faith or religion.
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 24, 2007....
    have you had the opportunity to consider what your belief means and what demands it might place on you?

    I'm not sure what you mean. I still believe in morality and ethics. I still believe there is much good to be found in many aspects of organized religion. I respect the historicalness of religion and it's place in the formation of human societies.
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 24, 2007....
    gen: i know what you mean.

    TS: sorry, i was writing in haste. what i meant was the sense i had from your comment was that your thoughts on the matter of spirituality might be somewhat nebulous. so i guess what i'm asking is what is your belief re: divinity?

    ed
  • fearing said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Ed, I can't speak for others in regards to why they find it surprising and I hope you didn't take my statement wrong.  No insult was intended.  
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I thought I stated it pretty bluntly up above -- I do believe in a God of some sort but I don't pretend to know the essential nature of God and I don't believe that He interferes in human affairs as many other people tend to believe.

    Heh. It's probably pretty close to "Intelligent Design" but not really. Does that make any more sense?

    It's like the whole universe is a machine and God is the one that designed the machine. Maybe even it has a specific purpose like the Earth did in Douglass Adam's Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Maybe it doesn't.

    At any rate, we're just part of it, not the end-all be-all of creation. Once we started realizing how large the universe is and how insignificant that we really are it seems pretty reasonable to me even without any actual facts to back it up.
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 24, 2007....
    fearing: no offense taken! :> i figured it was an honest question. :>

    TS: well, if two mice ever approach you, i advise you to find the nearest towel, sir. :>

    ed
  • truthsayer said on Apr 24, 2007....

    Just wanted to let you know that I am reading you.  I used up all my time on a very long response, that I felt I could not avoid.  Anyway, I read this and may comment later.  I have a busy work day that I must wrap up.

    Blessings,

    truthsayer

  • CreativeWoman said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I believe with all certainty that there is a God.  I can't really explain why except to say that I feel drawn to.  I had such unshakable faith as a child.  It has ebbed and flowed since then. I always never completely let go of that faith.

    Thanks for the informative post, ed.

    CW
  • lioneljay said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Like eilan, I consider myself an agnostic. I don't feel that I have ever felt the presence of a higher power and I have a very hard time believing in a specific one. My best guess is that a higher power exists but it isn't anything like we have tried to capture in our so-called holy or mystical writings.
  • raft said on Apr 24, 2007....
    SW: I had forgotten about Blaise Pascal. Yes, that's about right.If  you hadn't noticed I haven't been participating in those discussions due to time and commitment restrictions.
  • botoni said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Terrific and reasonable responses to a a challanging post here. I believe in a supreme being although my personal identification of that being could vary greatly from organized religion and certainly from the beliefs of many other people. I tend to believe that we 'understand' God in different ways and that may actually be the perfect plan of God.
  • ShudderBug said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I'm not sure what I believe anymore. If God does exist he sucks at this compassion thing.
  • harriedpsychmajor said on Apr 24, 2007....
    A friend of mine once said: "I don't believe that God exists. If the day comes when I find out he really does exist, I'm gonna tell him that I'm not impressed."

    I'm really indecisive when it comes to topics about religion. I was baptized into the Catholic faith at 18; it was a choice I rendered and I thought it would help me in an ongoing search for self-discipline and community. Then I considered the teachings of Buddha, because I agree with a lot of what is taught in Buddhism, which strikes me as more of a philosophy than a religion. I guess I'm not "officially" a Buddhist because I can't really pigeonhole myself into one religious practice. My thoughts processes aren't that rigid.

    Geez, I can't even fit myself into any one of the theist/agnostic/atheist categories. If I really had to say so, I'd say I'm agnostic.
  • skald said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Silverwhisper. English is not my language and I should maybe have said people who say they don't believe in god call upon him in time of disaster. I know people who do that when they have nightmares. still they think that they are non believevers. 
  • mom said on Apr 24, 2007....

    Without putting a title to what I am, I will tell you what I know.  I know there is a God.  Not because someone told me to believe that but because of my own personal experiences that has testified to me that we have a loving Father in Heaven.  I have had prayers and questions answered in such a way that no other reason exists except that they come from a loving God.  Everyone must find their own way.

    Gen- did you put that Mormon part in there for me?

  • ninjapirate said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Theism for me please.  I find the existence of God in the simply, yet complicated life around us.  The beauty of how biologically our bodies work or how things are just right for life to happen here.  It can all be proven with science, but it is just to amazing to not have something else good out there that helped put this together. The idea of the cold universe is just to sad for me to believe, I forget who came up with that philosophy.     
  • hunter_boyce_chandler said on Apr 24, 2007....

    I hesitated to post here but something told me to go on. 

    When I first came to SoulCast I was pretty sure of my position as an athiest.  I had a strong Religious background and was a Southern Baptist evangelist in my youth  I went to a Baptist University on a ministerial scholership and preached for a number of years.  Something happened in my life that I won't go into here that drove me away from all religion and I spent 20 years or so trying to convince peope that all religions were a lie.

    When I first came here I was very sick.  I had a condition that was close to fatal.  I used this venue to vent on an almost rabid hatred for religion and all people fooled by it.  Over time I really began to care about these people that were so misinformed.

    A change took place in me.  I began to soften my former stark position.

    I now realize that for the majority of people a loving Supreme Being does exist.  The very faith and belief they hold makes it certain that it does exist after all.

    I am a student of all things mathmatical and scientific. A good analogy is Schroeders Cat.  The very act of searching for God alters reality to make it possible to find him/her.  When I reaized this I was ashamed for my harsh 20 years of words.

    HBC

     

  • mom said on Apr 24, 2007....
    HBC- That was so nice.  I do feel that love can change a person.  The fact that it can soften someone is also proof that He does exist.  Thanks
  • BrenneeLee said on Apr 24, 2007....
     There are parts of my religion that I still don't understand, but I can say that I believe in God.
  • Chimaera said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Deductive logic is itself predicated on assumptions based on faith.  Empirical science also relies on assumptions rooted ultimately in faith.  Agnosticism isn't if you draw a line between provable and unprovable, it's where you draw that line.  Epistemology is all about what knowledge is and how do we know things.  Deductive proof isn't the be all and end all;  that's kind of Hume's point and Gödel's work clearly and decisively demonstrates the point.

    Me?  I'm agnostic about a whole lot of things.
  • Chimaera said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Holy formatting weirdness glitch...
  • lioneljay said on Apr 24, 2007....
    The only evidence I have of god's existence is when I hear a woman cry out his name again and again and again - for her at those moments he is clearly near. ;)
  • Chimaera said on Apr 24, 2007....
    P.S.: HBC, it's Schrodinger (with an umlaught over the 'o').
  • hunter_boyce_chandler said on Apr 24, 2007....

    Sorry, I have a German spellchecker.

    HBC

  • CreativeWoman said on Apr 24, 2007....
    In my earlier comment, I wrote that I do believe with certainty that there is a God.  I couldn't put my finger on why I was so sure.  After some thinking, I wrote more about it here.

    CW
  • copsunited said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Seems to me that someone has not the slightest idea of what
    agnostic really means. Should do some serious study and
    investigation. go back to early France and see what the meaning
    meant prior to and post the Knights Templar. Oops to deep for
    your shallow mind..sorry...
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Well then why don't you enlighten us poor souls with your wisdom instead of flying in and dropping some pennies from heaven and then leaving again?
  • hunter_boyce_chandler said on Apr 24, 2007....

    Silver...

    I thought you blocked that turd.

    HBC

  • raft said on Apr 24, 2007....
    It does smell all of a sudden, doesn't it?
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Is that what that was? I thought it was me...
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 24, 2007....
    truthsayer: take your time--as you know, i don't delete my blog entries.

    CW: you're quite welcome, and i'm glad to see what it sparked. :>

    LJ: so would it be fair to say that for you, it's a matter of highly-limited vocabularies incapable of communicating something outside of their experience? and

    raft: i hadn't, i've barely been there myself.

    botoni: if i were a theist, i think i'd believe as you do.

    shudderbug: i find that humans are sometimes pretty darned good at the whole compassion thing.

    harried: nah, that's definitely agnostic.

    skald: ah, that's a little different. there's an old saying, "there are no atheists in foxholes", which gets at the same idea.

    mom: i agree that people need to find their own way.

    np: my father-in-law often uses similar metaphors when preaching.

    hunter: i remember you being a very angry atheist at the time and honestly, i'm glad to see the change in you. and no, i don't block him--i figure that the more he comments here, the more he proves me right about everything i've ever said about him. :>

    brenneelee: you know, i think most theists would find themselves saying the same.

    chimaera: ah, i was wondering if you'd make an appearance on this. i was keeping the prospect of your commenting in mind as i wrote this. :> did i suggest that agnosticism was whether you draw that line on the continuum, or was that a metaphor to illuminate your pont?

    JD: note that you can comment on my blog. this is because i have never blocked you. david sings my song.

    TS: kindly don't encourage it.

    ed
  • Dunedin said on Apr 24, 2007....
    ... and apparently, it does surprise people when i tell them [I'm agnostic], although i'm never clear on why that is.

    Ed, I suspected you were non-religious, though not necessarily agnostic. I would have been surprised if you'd said you were Christian.
  • tbs230 said on Apr 24, 2007....

    I believe in God. I believe it with my whole heart and soul. I've been through so much in my life. At first belief was something inherited from my mother. I like the community, the sense of belonging. When my cousin passed away, I was so angry with him. I told myself God wasn’t worth my devotion if he would let an innocent baby die. My mother asked me if I would have rather God let him suffer. A year later my aunt died. I had asked for her suffering to end that night, and it did. I couldn’t get my head around it. That was the quickest answer to a prayer ever. Then I had my accident, and I called for Him by instinct. Who could help me besides Him? The doctors? They had messed up already and my mother wasn’t going to be in the emergency room with me.

     

    In high school, we had retreats once a year. That first time sophomore was intense. I never thought I would cry so much. My moments with God are times that I cherish. Those deep silences where I ramble about the things that are going on in my life are precious to me. The feeling of peace that I get when I sit in church and let the silence speak to me is greater than I ever thought was possible.

     

    God is more than the creator of the universe, the seer of all things, the great punisher and redeemer…He’s my rock. When there was no one else, I called out to him, and he heard me.

     

    Do I have proof that he’s real? Yes, in everything I do He is there. When I walk out the door in the morning, He’s the one pushing me. When I cry at night, He holds me safe. For those who have yet to find that comfort I feel sad. I wish I could share this with everyone, this feeling of being home, of being loved and wanted and safe.

     

    Forgive me if this has gotten long, but my faith has done more to heal me than anything else I’ve tried. It’s like listening to a particularly beautiful piece of music, or being under a warm blanket on a cold day. That’s what sitting in a church, listening to God does for me. And that’s about as logical as I can get.

  • tbs230 said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Best quote ever: I like to talk to God and pretend someone's listening.


  • boyzmom said on Apr 24, 2007....
    I am a believer, and sometimes I still believe the good will triumph over evil in the end. When I was young I was told that Santa used to exist but does not anymore, now I tell my kids that there is no Santa but there is a God and he is the one that takes care of us. Why soften the truth of the existence of God or the nonexistence of Santa, I feel I speak the truth and that leaves little room for doubt. I don't really know if this explains my beliefs but I have felt that there is something "that could pour a balm bountifully on the wounds upon their souls."
  • fearing said on Apr 24, 2007....
    The friend I tease you about by saying you remind me of him?  He was an agnostic too.  Just thought I'd throw that out there. 
  • genalonewolf said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Mom are you a Mormon? I honestly didn't know! But to answer the question no I had no clue!
  • mom said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Gen- lol, yes I am.  That is funny, most people say that they don't slam the door in Jehovahs Witness face.  That is so funny.  You are so sweet. :)
  • gingersoul said on Apr 24, 2007....

    SW.........there is aphorism that recites: "The absence of an evidence, is not the evidence of an absence".  I always found it extremely deep and useful.

    The absence of an evidence is not the evidence of an absence... Its what my believing friends keep telling me even though with different words.

    But I then answer to them: "The evidence of a presence is not necessarily the evidence of God's presence"....

    Miracles and interpetations of the Bible spring from the same ancestral need: we have always been scared of the darkness.

    We always needed a flashlights. And here came religion and the thousands ever changing interpretations of the Bible....

    I am agnostic. I used to believe, i grew up in Catholicism and guilty. I stopped believing at 13 years stepping out of a Sunday mass. I never put foot in a church again if not for architectural and historical reason.. I kept studying the origin of religions but with an approach that has been archeological, chronological, historical, epistemiological.

    After all these years the best that i can tell you is: i dont know. I know what God is not though. Its not bigotry, moralism, conformism, interpretations, tele evangelical messiah, churches that cost millions of dollars.

    I dont turn to God in my darkest moments, i dont use the Bible to guide my actions in my daily life.

    Ethic is my religion.

    And i firmly believe that the world would be a lot better place without religions. Religions and oil are the first causes of wars all over the world. I am ecologically agnostic. As Marx said "Religion is the opium of the people"

    I do to others what i would like them to do to me. Its called kindness and common snese. Why do i have to learn it from the Bible?

    About something bigger than life out there.......Nature is a wonder ..the smallest we go inside her mechanism and organism the bigger is her mistery....

    I dont believe in an immanent God. Two years ago a friend of mine brought to a praying group: they were asking God for materialistic things like cars, job, health....Is this God?  

    About a trascendent God? I told you ...i am agnostic...so i have to tell you i dont know.....

    i do know that we who keep asking are more lonely and fragile than the people who believes....they should protect us like an endangered specie.....lol...

  • Unfreedom said on Apr 24, 2007....
    Really hate to put a link up here, but if you read this, it may change a few views around here...
    Any questions or rants, I would please ask to direct to me at this site and not to the parties involved in this link.
    This link is merely to show what can be accomplished with a little faith...
  • D6fer said on Apr 25, 2007....
    I am definately agnostic.....have been most of my life.....shortly after 9/11  my father died....I began questioning gods existence....even claimed to be atheist at one point.....but the evidence of gods existence is too great for me to ignor.....while I now again beleive there is, or may be a god.....I find myself questioning what he really wants of us......Is the bible the book of god? Is it true to translation? or has it been manipulated to serve another purpose? The book of revelation certainly has had some spot on prophecy unfolding before our very eyes.....And when I was young, I read the book of Mathew, followed the direction of Jesus as best I could, and shortly thereafter found my wife of now nearly 22 years.....While that experience has been a great one, the agnost in me still hangs on.....stuck on the fence of religion.
  • kelly said on Apr 25, 2007....
    As you know, I'm an atheist.  But what I'd like to add is that I would really like people to consider that there is no god.  Not because it serves some sort of intellectual argument, but because it means we are truly all alone on this planet.  With each other.  And all we need is each other and a little ingenuity and love.

    Yes, a bit simplistic, but it's late and I'm tired....

  • mom said on Apr 25, 2007....
    kelly- we can still have love even with a God, which I like to think we do have. 
  • louthomas said on Apr 25, 2007....
    Boy, Ed, you DID hit someone's tender spot, didn't you?

    I have my own beliefs, philosophies that lean more toward belief than not (if we ever swap e-mail addresses, I have an interesting thesis I wrote under my "real" name).

    My point at this moment is a note of true levity.  Many moons ago, we hired a young man for a temporary assignment.  Turns out he was a self-proclaimed agnostic.  Not being, at the time, familiar with the word, I asked him to define it for me.  He thought for a moment, then said, "An agnostic is someone who doesn't have the guts to be an atheist."

    And this was before Truth In Advertising. .... !
  • Chimaera said on Apr 25, 2007....
    ed:  I was more or less in a blind rage when I wrote the above, so hopefully you'll forgive my lack of clarity.  The general pragmatic sense of agnosticism is as an argument or position on the existence of God or gods, while I see the arguments in support of that postion easily lending themselves to a much broader scope of things than just the notion of divinity.  People oftne privilige divinity with a different standard of proof than they do other things.

    Oh, and TS... I'm reasonably sure the monkey thinks he's making a clever reference to the gnosticism.  Don't worrry, it's not relevant to this discussion.
  • freespirit4u said on Apr 25, 2007....

    When it comes right down to 'crunch time', I'm a theist; I can't prove the existence or non-existence of a diety, but I choose to believe that there is such. Logically, an argument can be made either way, but for me, I choose to believe based upon nothing more that faith and hope, logical or not.

    J

  • tbs230 said on Apr 25, 2007....
    kelly: For a while I did think there wasn't a God. I questioned everything because I wanted the reason behind it all. I wanted concrete evidence that there was something more out there, and since no one could give it to me, then there obviously could not be a God.


    But then I walked into a church and sat there, just waiting...for what I don't know. But what I did get was a sense of comfort, of not being alone. I like to believe that God is here, but I am just as open to someone who believes that all that's out there and around us is air. That's your choice. But why are those who choose to hope for more looked upon as being irrational?


    I believe in evolution, I believe that the big bang occurred and we come from apes...just because I'm Christian, doesn't make me crave reason any less. I just happen to believe that time is relevant, and my belief in God encompasses everything. Why is it so hard to believe that 7 days for Him is a millennium? How much more irrational is that than the fact that the stars we look at at night have already died? How much more irrational is that than the fact that we are experiencing 1997 whether because of Global Warming?
  • copsunited said on Apr 25, 2007....
    Agnostic..vs..gnostic. I am appaled that no one seems to know
    the difference. Daymn..stupid is a stupid does.
     
    tbs..I am disappointed you have not contacted me..why is that?
     
    tell me..Please
  • pessimisticvaunt said on Apr 25, 2007....
    Very  interesting an informative. I know that I don't adhere to theism or Atheism so I guess I am in the last boat. It is hard for me to believe in a supreme being after what I have witnessed  man's cruelity   to other man
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 25, 2007....
    mohamed: not everyone perceives things the same way. :>

    tbs: that was absolutely beautiful to read. and never apologize for the length of a comment--if you're actually saying something, take all the time you want. :> i recognize that quotation but can't place it.

    boyzmom: i think that explains quite well, to be honest. :>

    fearing: you don't say? how peculiar.

    GS: the only things in your considered comment with which i draw exception is people in the prayer group asking for jobs, which after all are a means for them to be productive and hence be able presumably to help others. but otherwise, i am in agreement with what god is not.

    unfreedom: welcome to my blog and thank you for that link--it looks like a group that does good work.

    d6: as you might guess, i have a certain understanding for those stuck on the fence. :>

    kelly: i rather like that exercise, to be honest. :>

    lou: the funny thing is, i wasn't even trying. the target's just that big. :> anyway: i'd be interested in that exchange some day, lou, and i've been known to describe agnosticism that way, myself. :>

    chimaera: ah...i was wondering why paragraph 1 of the wikipedia entry is written that way--it's only in the past 5 years or so that i've heard agnostic used in a context apart from matters of theology.

    freespirit: i think that's reasonable.

    JD: careful, you're about to make a mess again, little puppy.

    pessimisticvaunt: welcome to my blog and thank you for visiting! the human capacity for cruelty is often shocking, but i try not to let that erase what i consider an ineffable truth, that human kindness can be shocking, too.

    ed
  • bloc said on Apr 25, 2007....
    @tbs
    "I'm Christian, doesn't make me crave reason any less. I just happen to believe that time is relevant, and my belief in God encompasses everything. Why is it so hard to believe that 7 days for Him is a millennium?"

    The only way you can maintain this is if you take the whole bible as metaphor. I assure you that most don't. Are there any parts of the bible you take literally?

    The truth is that most religious belief is irrational. I'm not saying that as a negative. Having faith in x,y,z means that you believe x,y,z regardless of any rational reasoning. It simply is what it is.

    "I like to believe that God is here, but I am just as open to someone who believes that all that's out there and around us is air."

    The air believers would be irrational as well ;) There is no air in space. :)
  • Frlncwrtr said on Apr 25, 2007....

    Ed: My stance is theist.

    I cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. However, my belief is sort of based on the idea you’ve shown in the examples that you cited - when a child says to his mother "i love you", we know that’s true, etc.

    If you tell me something, I believe you because you have not given me reason to disbelieve you. Similarly is my belief in God.

    freelance

  • mom said on Apr 25, 2007....
    I used to read this title right but ever since a certain person came on and commented I always see it as "antagonism". 
  • Frlncwrtr said on Apr 25, 2007....

    Lol, Mom!  It seems to have affected me the same way.

  • mom said on Apr 25, 2007....
    lol that is such a shame
     
  • Frlncwrtr said on Apr 25, 2007....

    Certainly is! :)

  • Alyss said on Apr 26, 2007....
    I would describe myself as an agnostic.
  • truthsayer said on Apr 26, 2007....

    Hi ed:

    Here are a few things I read, that show me, in very general terms, some things that you have experienced, and seem feel like you have some closure on, but I sense some conflict in your conclusions:


    1.)  there are truths that simply transcend this limited tool that we call logic.

    So, as a philosophical stance in which you seem to have limited yourself to deductive logic only, or at least, primarily...how do you account for these trancendant truths, that you know to be true?

    2.) and there are a whole host of things that we know intuitively, not deductively.

    Same question; then how do you account for this intuitive knowledge?  What is it's source?  I mean, since you seem to need to believe only in things that you can prove.  (I was going to include a definition of "prove" here, but I have much to do today...test, experiment with, and to conclusively prove, repeatable results, etc.)

    3.) i’ve looked earnestly for it, but never once have i found it—at least, not in that way.

    Have you been broken yet?  Have you faced something that was terrible, truly heart breaking or gut wrenching?  Have you travailed over something, anything?  Or will you be one of the few that don't need to come to that empty place, you can trust your eyes, your ears, your sense of things; will you be a hard hearted and stiff necked one?  Or sensitive, tender and soft hearted? 

    When you say, 'at least not in that way', you show that you have formed an opinion about 'that way', from your observation and your experience of another's experience, or from your perception of another's description of their experience of God.  What do you mean by "IN THAT WAY"?

    Last question here:  Have you ever experienced an epiphany?


    4.) and this is why i’m an agnostic: i cannot prove or disprove it,

    My only possible suggestion  here is this...have you ever considered experimenting?  I don't know if God would honor this request, if you made it.  But if He felt, in His infinite wisdom, that you were sincere and would give an honest report, He may allow you to satisfy your intellectual curiosity in this way. 

    As chimaera said, there is much that we cannot prove or disprove...the existence of God is already proven for me, but you require your own "data", I assume you require this for more things than the existence of God, right?  What else are you agnostic about, as chimaera suggests, besides the existence of God?

    BTW, that book that muckpar suggested to you is not whatever you thought it was.  At least your description doesn't fit the book by Lee Strobel that I know.  He was a total skeptic and quite intellectual as a reporter, and he, like so many others, set out to disprove the truth of Jesus Christ.  He was very well respected as a journalist and author.  He was quite surprised, shocked even, to find out how much historical evidense there was, not just for the existence of the man, Jesus of Nazareth, but he found tons of secular historians reporting the supernatural phenomena surrounding His life, death, and resurrection.  He eventually could not ignore the preponderance of evidense and came to a totally different conclusion than his original premise had suggested.  I think you would like it.  He is very humble and funny, yet sharp as a tack.  Good reading.  A must read if you are a faithful agnostic, and not just apathetic or indifferent. 

    5.) and this source has never made itself known to me despite my having sought it earnestly.

    I do not believe that this is true my friend.  You have experienced "it" several times, and you have blogged about it before.  You just cannot "define it", but "it" has made Itself known to you before.  You have filed it away in your mind as interesting, beautiful, and yet, you question these significant experiences...hoping to understand them better, one fine day. 

    What if God sent you many messages, dreams, intuition, premonitions, "coincidences", chance/destiny meetings...and the failure was not on His part for not making Himself known to you, but your own part, for refusing to acknowledge Him, at any of those interactions?

    Have you ever had a prophetic word spoken over you?  Of this, I am just curious...albeit respectfully.

    Food for thought friend.

    As far as my own beliefs, or my 'philosophical stance', by definition, theism is a pale description, but it is a starting point for this discussion I suppose:

    Belief in One God viewed as Creator (Yahweh/Yeshua/Jehovah/Jesus only) and Ruler of the universe and known by (the) Revelation (of Jesus Christ). 

    You cannot find the Truth by entertaining falsehood, no matter how entertaining it is ; )

    Your buddy,

    truthsayer

     

  • tbs230 said on Apr 26, 2007....
    bloc: I do crave reason and logic...which is why for a while I questioned everything and trusted nothing I read in the Bible. I used to ask myself if it was even worth going through Jesus to get to God.

    I take the ascension of Jesus literally, I take anything with witnesses literally. I do feel that alot is metaphor because those things we simply don't know about. Creating the world in 7 days, even the Bible has different accounts for that...what can be attested by many I take at face value...Genesis and Revelation, I feel, relay heavily on metaphor to describe and explain what we cannot comprehend.

    Jesus did a great job at dispelling much of the metaphor in the Law from the Old Testament. The Bible to me is written history and visions of the future, as well as a place to find comfort and strength.

    I hope this answered your question. If not, tell me where I went wrong and I'll try to correct it...

    Ed: I saw this on House while I typed my comment...I'm sure they stole it from somewhere, but that's where I got it from.
  • bloc said on Apr 26, 2007....
    "What if God sent you many messages, dreams, intuition, premonitions, "coincidences", chance/destiny meetings...and the failure was not on His part for not making Himself known to you, but your own part, for refusing to acknowledge Him, at any of those interactions?"

    This types of statements always make me chuckle.

    Today I really wanted a green tea from starbucks and they cost two dollars. I dug through my bag and found exactly $2 in change (not counting pennies). I guess god showed me that he exists ;)

    Seriously, why would God play games like you are alleging. God could prove it's own existence without a doubt. I know I know, it's because I just don't get it.

    <hr>

    This is a fascinating topic

    "1.)  there are truths that simply transcend this limited tool that we call logic.

    So, as a philosophical stance in which you seem to have limited yourself to deductive logic only, or at least, primarily...how do you account for these trancendant truths, that you know to be true?"

    I tend to be in the same camp as ed. That are some things that logic can not explain. Elegance is a good example of such a thing. However, the frailty of human logic is not a proof of a Christian God. It's proof of the frailty of human logic.
  • boyzmom said on Apr 26, 2007....
    I suggest that the "games" God seems to playing are actually tests, trying to find out if our faith is strong and if we are open to further teachings about him. Not because he wants to know but because no evangelist can get through to a closed- minded person and humans can't read minds or hearts like God can.
  • bloc said on Apr 26, 2007....
    That's the stuff I don't get :)
  • tbs230 said on Apr 26, 2007....
    There are those that believe that the only way to get to heaven is to act as though you care, to give and make sure people know you give...that's not true faith. You have to be open to the subtle to be open to God. If He made himself apparent to everyone, then everyone would expect God to fix everything, do everything...

    It's hard to explain to someone who doesn't believe in God because the only examples I have are ones I learned growing up Catholic. I guess the best person to explain it to you is someone who once held the same philosophy as you do.
  • bloc said on Apr 26, 2007....
    or maybe there isn't anyone to fix anything except ourselves?
  • tbs230 said on Apr 26, 2007....
    maybe...but that's so morbid and dull...I rather have a reason for all the suffering I've gone through. I rather believe that at the end of this life, something and someone is waiting, just for me. I need purpose, because without it, I might just go crazy.

    logic and reason is great for explaining why I hurt...but it sure doesn't comfort me.
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 26, 2007....
    freelance: it's good to see you commenting all over the place again, man! and that was eloquent and profound in its simplicity.

    mom: hm...perhaps that'll be the next installment..."on the nature of antagonism"... :>

    alyss: i know your time online these days is limited. good to see you again!

    truthsayer: in brief: 1) i reconcile it simply--"there is more in this life than is dreamt in your philosophy, horatio"; 2) if i say to you that i know a sheet of printer paper measures 8.5" x 11" yet lack a ruler that will permit me to measure it precisely at that instance, i still know its dimensions; 3) truthsayer, i don't believe there's a person who alive who hasn't been broken at some point or experienced an epiphany at some point and frankly i fail to see the relevance in either case--if you could be a little less opaque about where these questions are headed, you might get answers that are more meaningful; 4) evidently, i misremembered the book in question. as to other things about which i'm agnostic, i think they are ultimately dependent one way or the other on the question of the existence of god; 5) i have no control over what you do or do not believe. i can tell you only what i know--or, in this case, do not. :> btw: i agree re: difficulty of finding truth whilte entertaining falsehood. that's why i don't do it.

    tbs: i'm sorry, i'm a little confused--to what are you referring that you saw on house?

    bloc: well said, esp that bit about coincidences and how we interpret them. it's our predisposition to how we process data that very simply explains why logic can be trumped, and is more or less what chimaera was saying. i really love that analogy re: elegance, btw.

    boyzmom: see, i think that for the theist, almost everything in the world could be so interpreted, though. for example: you know the expression "every cloud has a silver lining"? when tragedy strikes--and really, take your pick--people invariably find some kind of positive they can draw from what has passed. when people are killed, we can be grateful that it wasn't more, or that perhaps evidence found there can stop the perpetrator(s) from future such acts. i hate traffic, yet there are times when i've been glad for it because there's a cop poking around so my inability to drive illegally fast, a function of the traffic, is saving me from being pulled over and issued a traffic ticket.

    ed
  • tbs230 said on Apr 26, 2007....
    oh, the quote...someone on the television show House said that to another character while I was writing my response. Well, actually, I watched the episode then wrote my response...and I thought it was perfect for what I was discussing so I wrote it down.

    yeah...that sounds right...
  • brokenandused said on Apr 26, 2007....
    SW: first and foremost, thank you for noting me, that's awesome! 2nd, thank you for the post, it has been very helpful to me, and 3rd, too bad this wasn't a money marketing blog, i would have asked for my share lol : )
     
    It did not surprise me you were agnostic because you never really give a final decision or answer (like me) , not saying that ppl of other religions are opininated, as they definetly aren't but it's just something i can't quite describe!
  • bloc said on Apr 26, 2007....
    @tbs
    "logic and reason is great for explaining why I hurt...but it sure doesn't comfort me."

    Try not to view this as a christian god vs atheism debate. I've already said that there are many things beyond reason. There is a middle ground between a christian god that will judge me and a meaningless dog eat dog world.
  • truthsayer said on Apr 27, 2007....

    Bloc, so, God and I made you 'chuckle'? 

    You have no idea what causes anything, keeps anything in balance, prevents this highly volatile system to keep from exploding (new physics, if you want another chuckle), and really the only explanation either of you, any of you can offer for why you had exactly $2 in your purse for your coffee, or why our bodies immediately begin a very complex healing process the "nano-second" after our wounding is this:  IT JUST HAPPENS?

    Wow, it appears that you both have far more faith than I can muster.  But I am happy to be here on the planet for your amusement, if that is all you can get from me.  : )

    You said, "I know I know, it's because I just don't get it."  No, it is because you flatly refuse to "get it".  Like boyzmom so clearly stated:

    I suggest that the "games" God seems to playing are actually tests, trying to find out if our faith is strong and if we are open to further teachings about him. Not because he wants to know but because no evangelist can get through to a closed- minded person and humans can't read minds or hearts like God can.

    I hope you don't mind my using your comment here boyzmom.  But this, is the crux of our differences, as believers vs skeptics; they do not see their own hardness.  They are completely unable to see that their minds are closed.  It is much more plausible to them, that everything "just happens", and they are much more willing to admit that although they do not know the mechanisms, or what powers all life, and that is as far as they will go mentally, or spiritually.  You and TBS are right, I think it is better to let former skeptics deal with them.  Because it is impossible to 'explain God' to someone that isn't even looking for Him.

    On this one thing, we can agree bloc:  It's proof of the frailty of human logic.

    Amen brother/sister.

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Apr 27, 2007....
    Hmmm, too bad ed.  Well, once again, you set me straight.  What on earth would I do without you?  Sorry to have bothered you.  It won't happen again.  Truthsayer
  • bloc said on Apr 27, 2007....
    @truthsayer
    "Bloc, so, God and I made you 'chuckle'?"

    No, you made me chuckle ;)
  • truthsayer said on Apr 27, 2007....

    BTW lioneljay, that example of a woman crying out was beautiful.

  • truthsayer said on Apr 27, 2007....
    Je suis sa fronde.
  • copsunited said on Apr 27, 2007....
    The Gnostic's were the heart and soul of Christianity. They had some
    real problems when the powers that be decided that the Gnostic's were
    antichrist..ergo..the shit hit the fan..
     
    I have not read a thing on here ..really..once i see "ed" the
    weasel all commons sense is out..he is such a fucking moron..
    I have never ever met a  more contemptible person in all my life.
    I'd love to stuff his ass with helium and see just how far we could
    elevate him into the stratosphere.
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 27, 2007....
    tbs: ah, OK. now i get it!

    b&u: you're quite welcome!

    truthsayer: you're sounding vaguely passive/aggressive.

    ed
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 27, 2007....
    ah, JD...don't ever change. :>

    [pats JD on the head, gives him a chew toy and points him outdoors]

    ed
  • bloc said on Apr 27, 2007....
    je suis l'eau
  • truthsayer said on Apr 27, 2007....

    ed:

    Nope.  Just tired of the same old stuff from both of us, sorry if I sounded short. 

    I feel stupid when I believe that you are earnestly seeking that "“thing”, for lack of a better term," although you admit:  "it is something i’ve never known. i’ve looked earnestly for it, but never once have i found it".  Silly me.  I thought that since I have what you said you were searching for, I assumed that you were still searching.  I won't assume that again.  I am sure you will ask me directly, if you have any real questions for me.  Until then, I think I will see if I can find mom, who may not actually be out of her mind, but merely taking a well deserved mental vacation! 

    Anyway, this is what I think as I reread your position piece.  I think that you like where you are.  You sound quite settled into your position.  I think, for you, it sort of defines, 'who you are', and I wouldn't want to disturb your perception of yourself.  Part of your make up, as you see it, is to be 'in the middle'...so that you can ask questions of both sides, even empathisize with both 'sides', and if that is the case, you should probably just stay there.  It is, in a way, who you are, and perhaps, who most people expect you to be; at least here in soulcast. One's identity is a very sensitive thing.  I know now why you have mentioned feeling 'overly sensitive', and why my words were like thorns to you.  I hope that you will forgive me.

    So anyway, carry on, and have a super weekend. 

    I know I will ! 

    I am wrapping up early and headed for the garden.

    truthsayer 

  • silverwhisper said on Apr 27, 2007....
    that's rather insightful, truthsayer. i've been a bit irritated with work today so i've been inclined to read you negatively--i apologize for shortchanging you so.

    i think that all of us are on some level searching for authentic relationships, and the christians i know--the ones who take their faith seriously--seem to have found the most authentic one in their faith. i admire that, and i know from our previous exchanges that's true of you as well.

    thank you; i plan to have a pretty good weekend myself. enjoy your time in the garden!

    ed
  • truthsayer said on Apr 27, 2007....
    Il est la pierre.
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 27, 2007....
    who are you calling a rock, truthsayer?

    ed
  • truthsayer said on Apr 27, 2007....

    You wouldn't believe me if I told you ed!  But it isn't you, or anyone in here.  Did I write it wrong?  Doesn't it mean, "He is the stone, or rock?"

    I cannot really explain it.  It was for bloc. Truly, if I tell you anymore, I don't think you will believe me.

    I didn't even know what the first phrase meant.

    I had to look it up myself.

    Then I had to look up bloc's phrase.

    Then, I tried to write the last one correctly...but I didn't mean to call someone a rock.  Only, "He is the stone, or rock."

    Tell me quickly if I accidentally said to someone, 'you are a rock, or stone.'

  • silverwhisper said on Apr 27, 2007....
    no, you used the correct pronoun--it just seemed a tad peculiar. the little i learned of french allows me to understand that one. :>

    anyway: enjoy your weekend, truthsayer!

    ed
  • truthsayer said on Apr 27, 2007....
    Peculiar treasures sometimes say, or, sometimes peculiar treasures require peculiar things ; )
  • Frlncwrtr said on Apr 27, 2007....

    Thanks Ed! I'll be commenting more now, but still not nearly as much as I used to. 

    Also, thanks for the compliments!  Usually, simplistic is not the route I take :) 

  • polarheart said on Apr 29, 2007....

    Ed, when this blog was going on I was unable to read or comment, but have done so now.   I may interrogate you on my blog about some religious issues in the near future. . .LOL!

    I am a believer in the Ancient of Days, Almighty Elohim and Yahuweh is His Name.

  • thearmchairbitch said on Apr 29, 2007....
    I am a theist. My theist beliefs were reinfoced when I studied biology in school, particularly, about the the human body, the organs, their functions, and how they all worked in sync with one another to perpetuate the individual's life and species. Not just the human body, but the host of other living things including plants, insects, marine life, etc, how they sustained their existence and propagated their kind. To me, they were all too awesome a coincidence for nature to have evolved by chance. There had to be some mighty force of a creator at work here.
  • fearing said on Apr 29, 2007....
    Ed and Truthsayer, I really enjoyed reading the debate you had going.  

    Truth, Your points were beautifully written.  My stance is with you though I couldn't express them as well.  I am glad God talks about even children understanding - lol - that's the faith that I have.  I just know.

    Ed, You know how much I admire you.  You are intelligent, funny, wise  - my hope for you is that you find Him, even if you're not looking.  
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 29, 2007....
    polarheart: yes, i had a feeling that might be your stance. :>

    armchair: yep, i'm familiar with that reasoning. i find it interesting how we take various facts and draw sometimes different conclusions from them.

    fearing: well, i'll cop to being funny, anyway. my mother's been praying that prayer for me for a very long time. :> what's interesting though is that IMX, the most remarkable things find us when we aren't seeking them, you know?

    ed
  • polarheart said on Apr 30, 2007....
    Never underestimate the power of a praying parent :-)))  And I also believe that He finds us like the little lost sheep. . .thank goodness for that!
  • truthsayer said on Apr 30, 2007....

    I just subscribed to you fearing.  I am sorry.  I don't know how I missed you.  I try to subscribe to all the brethren I can...I need to be uplifted too!  I am glad for the debate, if it touched you.  Thank you for the kind words and the confirmation. 

    I stepped aside, as I think our buddy is about to get a Holy Ghost trout-smacking ; )

    Blessings to you fearing & keep the faith, it's kind cold out there ; )

    truth

  • truthsayer said on Apr 30, 2007....
    : ) Good to see you polar!  Don't mind me ed...I'm outta here ; )
  • fearing said on May 01, 2007....
    Truth, Thanks for subscribing to me!  I have 10 now!!!  Yea!  lol  Good to have you as a friend!

  • truthsayer said on May 01, 2007....

    You are welcome, and thank you.  This is the last comment I am posting today, but I wanted to say you're welcome and thank you.  I am looking for inspiration too! 

    Now, if you will please excuse me, steaks await me!

    truthsayer

  • Antimatter said on Jun 11, 2007....

    Though I was raised Christian and believed God existed up until a couple years ago, today I’m an atheist.

    It may not be possible to disprove all notions of God, but it is possible to show through inductive reasoning and empirical data that the monotheistic creator God of Abraham, the one that listens to our thoughts, answers prayers, and designs animals, almost certainly does not exist. Even if we ignore such arguments, a healthy dose of skepticism is all that’s required to reject the flimsy evidence advanced to promote unquestioned “faith” in such an entity.

  • silverwhisper said on Jun 11, 2007....
    antimatter, i'd be curious to know what argument you use that's eluded philosophers for centuries. ?

    ed
  • Antimatter said on Jun 11, 2007....
    I personally like the argument advanced by Richard Dawkins. It’s an argument of improbability inspired by the intelligent design movement. Wikipedia has a short summary of the argument.
  • silverwhisper said on Jun 12, 2007....
    i'm failing to see why that's proof of the non-existence of god rather than a refutation of the ontological argument. what have i missed?

    ed
  • Antimatter said on Jun 12, 2007....

    I must admit, I don’t see the relation to the ontological argument.

    Theists make particular claims about God that we can directly examine. They claim that God is the source and designer of complexity in the universe. This begs the obvious question: where did God’s complexity come from? Why does his complexity not require a similar explanation? This is an inductive argument that a designer God almost certainly cannot exist. (It is an argument from improbability, after all.)

    Theists also claim that God performs miracles in response to prayers. Studies have consistently demonstrated that prayer has no effect, except in studies where a religious person is aware that others are praying for him or her, suggesting a psychological benefit.

  • silverwhisper said on Jun 12, 2007....
    well, my understanding of the ontological argument is this, specifically the second formulation of descartes' argument. argument by design is keying off of this formulation, at least in my mind, hence my observation.

    re: prayers, there was a very small study two-three years ago that indicates that prayer actually does have some kind of impact--patients in a control group were not prayed for while the other patients were prayed for but not told, IIRC.

    ed
  • truthsayer said on Jun 15, 2007....

    Hi ed, Hi Antimatter:

    I almost had a nervous breakdown when I first started philosophy, even though I was quite gifted in it.  In order to be a true philosopher, one must be able to let go of their 'psychic distance' and 'get into the head' of the person that writes their philosophy.  I was told that most people could not do that.  They can merely act like they do, all the while, clinging to their own 'opinions' for dear life.  In order to understand Descartes and Hume, I had to let go of my own opinions, beliefs, and understanding of the world, and get into their 'understanding' of the world.

    It was terrifying for me.  I am not afraid to admit that.  I went through a horrible spell in my own belief system...but, when I really understood what they were saying, and I compared and contrasted and tried to integrate what I could, the truths that they perceived and held to be true, at least their sincerity or their humanity; I found, in the long run, that it served to strengthen my faith. 

    Probability proves that God, or the Designer of all, doesn't exist?  That's a new one for me.  I have been reading quantum physics for about 20 years, and probablility is exactly what many traditional 'scientists' hate.  Probability, in quantum physics, tends to prove that he does indeed exist.  So, please show me where this study is, that says that probability says that God does not exist, and that the whole of the known and unknown universe is a result of 'chance', if you please.  I would like to see it. 

    Thank you Antimatter and ed.  Btw, did you miss me?  ; P

    Best wishes,

    truthsayer

  • silverwhisper said on Jun 15, 2007....
    hello, truthsayer. quantum physics is, as i understand it, a different animal from most other branches of physics, so this might explain the apparently disharmony between antimatter's understanding and your own.

    in all honesty, been wondering where you've been lately. :>

    ed
  • bloc said on Jun 15, 2007....
    "In order to understand Descartes and Hume, I had to let go of my own opinions, beliefs, and understanding of the world, and get into their 'understanding' of the world."

    I think this is good advice in general and letting go of ones world view is usually a frightening thing.

    Back to the topic at hand. Antimatter said:
    "They claim that God is the source and designer of complexity in the universe. This begs the obvious question: where did God’s complexity come from? Why does his complexity not require a similar explanation? This is an inductive argument that a designer God almost certainly cannot exist. (It is an argument from improbability, after all.)'

    truthsayer, this is a powerful argument as far a I can tell. It doesn't prove that God doesn't exist, it's a inductive argument after all :)

    "Probability, in quantum physics, tends to prove that he does indeed exist."

    You lost me on that one. I'm not up on quantum physics so ...
  • truthsayer said on Jun 15, 2007....

    Well, I missed you too ed  ; )  You are right, this is the debate.  Those who dislike statistics and what they 'say' and the Copenhagen view of quantum physics.  I find it all interesting.  I often find my 'proofs' in the arguments of 'opposing' arguments.  But I am not afraid of complexity or simplicity.  They are siblings in my estimation.

    To Antimatter and ed:

    Here is an interesting link: 

    http://www.meta-religion.com/Physics/Particle_physics/gods_particle.htm

    It is not a Christian website, but it says that they are looking for the Higgs particle, which is said to add mass to matter.  They call it the God particle.  I think it is the one that they say is able to travel back and forth between matter and antimatter (a different article) at the rate of 3 trillion times per something or another ; )  They are always having to look for something in quantum physics, that they know is there based on other elements and behaviors, but they cannot see it yet.  It is an interesting article, and I think you both may like it. 

    Antimatter, I would suggest that you adopt ed's mantle for a while yet:  agnosticism.  If you can still suspend your conclusions for a bit.  Especially if this 'discovery' of Richard Dawes et al, is fairly new to you. 

    Check out the website that houses this article (the original link to the information was from the BBC), called MetaReligion.  It has links to all sorts of religions and philosophies, and also, has a complimentary science side of the website.  It includes, but is not limited to Christianity.  Christianity is only one of the religions listed, in other words.  Even if you only read the science side, where this article is listed, take a chance, if you can, and read it.

    I would also suggest that you read arguments opposing Dawkins' arguments as well.  Reading those who disagree with him, will at least give you some balance; which is required in both higher learning and quests for the truth.  You might ask yourself if Richard Dawes can place himself compassionately into the shoes of the 'other guys'.  Or, if he is too vitriol to attempt that.

    If I can be of any service to you, please don't hesitate to ask me.  I am a student of philosophy, science and religion.  I am not very linear though; actually, I am quite abstract, but I have adapted pretty well.  If you are very linear though, I suspect that I cannot help you much.

    Peace fellow think babies,

    truthsayer

  • polarheart said on Jun 15, 2007....
    Hello Truth!!  I will be sending you an email update soon. . .been a-thinkin' bout ya!
  • truthsayer said on Jun 15, 2007....

    Hi bloc:

    That quality is one that I admire in all people.  Being capable and willing to truly empathize, I think, is somewhat rare these days.  I find that there are many people that we, as humankind, tend to idolize, that are totally or almost totally incapable...or unwilling, to experience and practice compassion.  Then, there are those that say they are 'compassionate' and empathetic, when I find, that is not the case at all.  The world is full of pretenders these days...in all arenas of life.

    I hear what you are saying in repeating Antimatter's argument, but to say a thing, doesn't make it true.  It is perhaps beyond the understanding, or willingness of some people to believe that there is a self-existent, self-sufficient One.  But that is the only logical conclusion.  There is a first cause.  Or there can be no effect.

    I know that most of us aren't 'up' on quantum physics, and with knowledge doubling as fast as it is, even the scientists have a hard time 'keeping up'.  Here is something that we know from quantum physics though...and it is unsettling, at best.  I am sure you or someone else will try to turn this around on me, and since I myself mention the tactic; I would appreciate it if you and others could refrain from it.  I am not mentioning this to evangelize, merely to state an important truth that I think should be known:

    In quantum physics, we know that if something, true or not, is repeated long enough, and if concurrently, we can erase the proof of a particular history, events, facts, etc...if that lie can be repeated long enough, and by enough people...it can become accepted as fact, or, by the definition of some...as 'truth'. 

    We see a perfect example of this in radical Islam.  They continue to teach their isolated, Middle Eastern Muslims, that are essentially 'cut off' from the world at large, and not allowed to form their own opinions, or sometimes, they are not even allowed to read; that the holocaust never even happened (i.e. Mahmoud Abadinijaad (sp) the leader of Iran says this)---or that it was greatly exaggerated. 

    Many of their people really believe this.  They repeat this and teach it to their children.  So they cannot really be held completely accountable for their beliefs, if they have accepted what they have taught to be in fact, true. 

    Let's take it a step further.  If, for instance, he was successful at taking over the world, you and your wife even, would be taught and expected to teach that the holocaust never happened, or that it was greatly exaggerated.  That only 600 Jews, or 6000 Jews were killed...not six million, as we know to be true and factual, so far, today.

    If a lie is repeated long enough and by enough people, and the written documentation (which says otherwise) can be changed...it will become accepted as fact/truth...whether it is or not.  You will see this phenomenon on earth, probably within your lifetime.  But it will not change The Truth.  This is why I believe in absolute truth (speaking of the philosophy).  It has to be. 

    Later think baby bloc.  Good to see you too.

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Jun 15, 2007....

    Shalom and Peace be with you Polarheart!!!  Great to see you too.  You have been in my thoughts and prayers as well; so, I will be looking forward to that update!

    Your buddy,

    truth

  • silverwhisper said on Jun 15, 2007....
    truthsayer, when you say "but that is the only logical conclusion. there is a first cause. or there can be no effect", i'm failing to see an argument actually being made. if you're referring to a con-dawkins argument, i'd like to see it.

    ed
  • truthsayer said on Jun 15, 2007....

    I really wasn't interested in making an argument silver.  I was stating my conclusions after studying philosophy and getting into the heads and hearts of the various philosophers I had to understand and critique.  You would have to read all the philosophers regarding absolute truth (for and against) and draw your own conclusions. 

    Before I can respond to your second sentence ed, I need your help.  I have no idea why, but weeks ago, the right side of my screen has continued to cut off at least six or seven characters.  I thought I had this happen once before, shortly after my first blog...but then it seemed to get 'fixed'.  I don't know if my 'messing with it' fixed it, or if someone on soulcast 'fixed it', because I had recently commented about it on one of the soulcast blogs. 

    I do not know what you were saying beyond "i'd li"...and then..."it".  Can you help me fix this problem?  Ever had it happen to you, or heard of it happening to others?  I can't imagine why it started up again, all of a sudden, several weeks ago.  I didn't change anything that I know of.

    Thanks in advance,

    truthsayer

  • silverwhisper said on Jun 15, 2007....
    i've seen other people make that same complaint but unfortunately, i've never seen it myself, i'm afraid. i recommend blogging it here.

    re: the argument, you realize i trust that if you can't reproduce an argument that's eluded centuries of philosophers, i can't take that on faith, right?

    ed
  • truthsayer said on Jun 16, 2007....

    Hi silver:

    I am talking about philosophers.  You don't have to take it on faith.  I will post some links to philosophers that present wonderful arguments for absolute truth, if you want me to.  You have to weigh the arguments, just like I had to.  You just don't have a philosophy professor that is using you as the class guinea pig, making you read, analyze, and critique every single assigned reading!  ; )

    I have to get to bed, but thanks for the suggestion about the margins.  It is incredibly annoying, and for one who is not easily annoyed : P well...you know what I mean ; )  I will blog it where you suggest, but tomorrow.  I think I'll ask about the diggit and other little icons too.  Good night now, take care.

    truthsayer

  • Antimatter said on Jun 17, 2007....

    truthsayer, you speak down to me like I’ve never read an opposing argument. If that were the case, I’d still be the God-fearing, Bible-quoting Evangelical that I was six years ago.

    No, I will not suspend my conclusion that God does not exist. A minority of physicists (or, more likely, their science journalists) calling a yet-unconfirmed subatomic particle the “god particle” is not a compelling reason. I find it interesting that you would bring up quantum physics and then conclude that there must be a first cause. If we have learned anything from quantum physics, it’s that causality is not as simple as we previously supposed.

  • silverwhisper said on Jun 18, 2007....
    truthsayer: you're right that i'll have to read the arguments myself and form my own opinion. you'll have to excuse me if i don't take your word for it. :>

    ed
  • DaddysLittleSlut said on Apr 08, 2008....

    Silverwhisper i don't have time just now to read through all the comments. please excuse me but based on your entry...i've never heard anyone who thought of it the same way as i did before... i thought we just had the towel thing in common .. huh

    thanks
    dls

  • silverwhisper said on Apr 09, 2008....
    DLS: hey, i'm kinda surprised you found this old blog entry! and yeah, there's more of us than you might think. :>

    ed
  • kelly said on Apr 09, 2008....
    I think my very favorite quote comes from harriedpsychmajor, but this one from Woody Allen does make me laugh:

    "If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever."
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 10, 2008....
    you know, i really like that, kelly! :D

    ed
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 10, 2008....
    Yeah, I got a kick out of that quote too.
  • kelly said on Apr 14, 2008....
    @truthsayer: Going backward a bit:
    "In quantum physics, we know that if something, true or not, is repeated long enough, and if concurrently, we can erase the proof of a particular history, events, facts, etc...if that lie can be repeated long enough, and by enough people...it can become accepted as fact, or, by the definition of some...as 'truth'. "

    This is confusing.  You start with physics and end with sociology.  What is this paragraph really about?
  • cotterall&elaineadams said on Jun 01, 2008....
    Fine, whatever.  I believe but I work with Baptists and followers of Wicca who are close friends..it is a weird town, I don't care but it is odd and then I heard about apparently it is the fault of all Christians that the Wiccan was bothered by some hardcore Pentecostal type in a black pilgrim suit with a beard and hat in the fields of fruit where she worked for the summer...I am not Pentecostal and don't see how this is my problem since I would rather be a Unitarian or Buddhist.  whatever...
  • silverwhisper said on Jun 02, 2008....
    cotterall, does it ever bother you that your comments are more or less entirely incomprehensible and devoid of relevance?

    and why so many user names?

    ed

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