• bloc said on Apr 17, 2007....

  I think it could be seen as being opposed to the ideals upon which this country was founded.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 17, 2007....

  I didn't tell him not to vote, or tell him not to speak. 
   
  I did tell him that the President chooses who our allies are and if he didn't like that he could leave.
   
  Then I got the he's not a dictator argument

• bloc said on Apr 17, 2007....

  "and if he didn't like that he could leave."
  
  Do you see how silly that comment is? If you don't like that we don't (insert libertarian issue) then go live in Iraq where there is virtually no government interference in peoples lives.
  

• silverwhisper said on Apr 17, 2007....

  i've always found the charge of "anti-american" among the very stupidest, myself.
  
  ed

• bloc said on Apr 17, 2007....

  @sw
  Yeah, i see it as a lazy argument usually used when the person doesn't have a legitimate point to make.
  

• silverwhisper said on Apr 17, 2007....

  well, it's a meaningless word that sounds bad. a lot like "degenerate".
  
  ed

• TinSoldier said on Apr 17, 2007....

  "love it or leave it" is a legitimate argument, just not very original or even very nice.
  
  In fact, if people who didn't "love it" all left the country then we would never see any change or progress at all.
  
  Do these people not like the fact that the office of the president makes policy, or that this specific individual is the president and makes policy?
  

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 17, 2007....

  Doesn't like that we are allied with Isreal. 
   
  I didn't say it was the most mature statement I could have made, on occasion the fact that I had my 24th birthday two months ago becomes obvious.  It is in fact a silly statement.
   
  Just not anti-american.  Anti-American when you don't like Hulk Hogan, Superman, and apple pie.  :-)

• TinSoldier said on Apr 17, 2007....

  Heh. Technically, we aren't allied with Israel. At least, not in the traditional sense of an "alliance".
  
  However any support we give to Israel is as much due to Congress as it is due to the office of the President.
  

• truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

  I don't get it.  How can being friends, or allies of Israel be anti-American?  What did I miss?

  I used to hear my dad say, "America, Love It Or Leave It"...in fact, it was next to the bumper sticker that said, "The Ayatollah Issa Assahola"...can I say that in soulcast? : P  I used to argue with him about all that stuff.  I met Jimmy Carter.  I was going to work for his mediation center.  I have changed a lot, and I am glad I have.

  Being older now, I know what he meant.  My idealism is real now.

  I actually carried a banner in an American Legion Independence Day Parade, that said "Freedom Is Not Free."  I knew it was true, eventhough I was little.  I have come full circle, and gained much wisdom on the way.  I have been all around the 360, and for that, I am grateful. 

  SeanR, I am proud of you for sharing your age.  You will learn much more in life without the pretense which so encumbers others.

  How about that?  I think I agreed with you, or almost ; ) twice in one day!

  Now...get up off that floor soldier.

  truth 

• truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

  One more thing.  My dad got older and wiser too.  He used to hate the fact that my brother came home from Vietnam early, for mental reasons.  He got an "honorable discharge" but he was a mess.  Don't get me wrong, my brother was a mess before Vietnam too.  He may have gotten worse, but he always had problems. 

  My dad came to understand the difference between "his war" , WWII, and Vietnam.  Eventhough Dad's generation came home messed up too...alcholism, etc.  They had the love and admiration of the people and the government of this country.  I think that made it better for them, in a way.  Dad came to believe that the Vietnam vets were really badly affected by this country's hatred of them...or at best, their ambivalence. 

  I hope and pray that no one makes that mistake again...but with the vocal and liberal media...I am more than concerned for them.  I hate those funeral demonstrations.  Sick, just sick.  It is up to any and all of us to be grateful for their service and their willing sacrifice for us, and to take responsibility for making it known. 

  ...stepping off the soap box, but still humming the Battle Hymn of the Republic,

  truth

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 17, 2007....

  I'm a MARINE, not a soldier.  Yeah, twice in one day.  You know, not that I'm converting or anything but are there any other signs of the apocalypse I should be on the look out for?

• TinSoldier said on Apr 17, 2007....

  Heh. I've been both... Marine and Soldier ;-)
  
  Never Air Force or Sailor though.
  

• truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

  LOL...!  Sorry about that...I mean Marine ; )  I get it.  : )
   
  Thank you both, SeanR and TinSoldier.  We try to do what we can for military guys/gals or their spouses.  The changes I saw in this one guy, was amazing.  He left a boy-man and came back (at least I think he is back...we moved from that town) a very strong and much more mature man. 
   
  His entire stature and demeanor changed.  His name was Pistol.  He was military police on the road from Kuwait (or near the border) and Baghdad.  Very dangerous and yet, very tedious too...not the patrols, but the time spent over there.  We did what we could to help his wife who had a baby while he was there. 
   
  I hope that you each had good support while you were there and when you came home.
   
  God Bless,
   
  truthsayer
   
   

• ALIENated said on Apr 17, 2007....

  I did not read all the babble above, but it is just a play on the 60s "love it
  or leave it" attitude. I usually say something like that out of frustration,
  when I am talking to some moron that I feel does not have the aptitude
  to understand what I am talking about. I really do not expect anyone to
  actually leave because there really is no better place to go.
  
  

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 17, 2007....

  Amen.  Alien.
   
  Also your welcome Truth.  Odd the name I gave my secret agent characther is Pistol.

• cotteralladams2 said on Apr 17, 2007....

  If you hate America, I have no idea why you would live there.  Not you, but people in general.  Since American peace activists and Democrats criticize Bush's policies, I don't think it is anti-American for foreigners to do the same.  Two different issues that get lumped together.  American patriotism and identity aren't the issues.  I have no bone to pick with American culture.  It is government policy--a.k.a. the Pentagon, C.I.A., military-industry complex,contracts for the defense industry, dominance in the Middle East, oil and contracts for business in Iraq and Afghanistan-that type of stuff--that I have an issue with.

• LMari said on Apr 18, 2007....

  im southafrican. and i will be honest, most non-americans see america as intimidating. example, if america were to be a character in a movie - they would be the jocky-rich-bad guys - it sounds ridiculous but i think its bcos America supposed to be the best country - bigger better. richer. its also the country where the No1 cause for death is gun violence. theres no gun control. then everyone gets on the bush-bandwagon, how he is killing ppl for oil and money and bcos he wants to be the hero president. there are too many assumptions and little understanding. and this is what ppl in my country generally think.
   
  then again, in south africa im seen as one of those ass's that started apartheid. (even though i wasnt even born in that era) -automatically bcos im white. i was born here. but im not african- what am i? now thats another entire story on its own. all this ant-american shit are ppl in general assuming and generalilizing.
   
  say everyone seems to hate britney spears - but do they understand her? do they realy know whats happening with her? NO. and my take on it, is that i realy dont care. no matter how hard we try to make this world a better place- there will always be people making our decisions for us. there will always be some higher power reaping the benefits, corruption and scandal -and stomping on us with its big feet. and theres nothing we can do about it. our vice president was found innoccent after a long trial he had over rape. he was then found guilty for tax fraud. our ppl in power treated him like a hero when he got out of court. its ridiculous. but theres not much use in getting mad - we cant do NOTHING about it. corruption in apartheid days - still corruption. sigh

• GrapeKoolaid said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Love it or leave it.....
   
  Not with this country's foreign policy the way it is.  No thanks.  Even though I disagree with some of the current administration's decisions, I think I'll just stay put. 
   
  The fact that I can voice my disagreement and not be sent into a re-education camp or "fall in the shower" is what makes this country so great.  I'm more suspicious of the flag-waving dittoheads.  Blind "patriots" who are convinced that their country can do no wrong, are the ones who gladly put people in internment camps. 
   
  If you don't respect someone's right to disagree, it is you who don't love America. 
   
  Sean, I don't think I'd ever consider you to be anti-American.  If anything, the concern you show for your country's well being reveals you as a fine patriot. 
   
  That also goes for bloc and Alien.  Even though you fellas passionately disagree on many points, your love of your nation is plain to see. 

• beaker said on Apr 18, 2007....

  I'm half Irish, and half English, and live near York, and I can honestly say; the world would be  damn boring and unsafe, without America (will you have me?)

• curmudgeon said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Beaker - Welcome!
   
  "Love it or leave it" - I think you can love your country and still disagree with what the President is doing. In fact, it takes more courage and strength to voice one's opinion against those in power while still maintaining one's love of country.
   
  The other challenge, of course is to be able to offer impassioned criticism without it devolving into anti-American rhetoric - bullshit like calling WTC victims "little Eichmanns" and that sort of thing.
   
  What I can't understand are the sundry Bush-haters profiled by major magazine in 2004 who pledged to move to Canada if he won re-election, but then never did.
   
  Where's Alec Baldwin living these days? Paris?

• The_Ranting_Logician said on Apr 18, 2007....

  I dont think it's anti american to tell people to move somewhere more suited for their beliefs. Shit I wish more people would do that. Day after day I hear people bitch about how the country is run and how the country "sucks." Whatever, I may not agree but I try to respect everyones opinion. But sometimes I wish these people would take the course of action you mentioned here...leave. Honestly the only people I really view as anti american are the people who either say "I am anti american" or people who attack the country. Thanks for the post man "If you don't like the weather...move!"

• bloc said on Apr 18, 2007....

  "people who attack the country."
  
  This issue is in how this is defined. Am I anti american for being ardently opposed to our use of torture?
  

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 18, 2007....

  No, for two reasons.
   
  1. Your voicing your opinion and doing something about an injustice that is one of the things that make this country great.
   
  2.  You'd be hard pressed to find more suited to your ideals.  Which really is the bottom line in most of love or leave it arguments. As screwed up as America is, it is still by far the greatest nation on earth.

• agentPit said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Actually, the one dare to criticize and challenge questionable authority, never mind President or King of America, is the real patriot America. The one who discourage fundamental America value to question questionable doubt is the real anti-American or perhaps a traitor who care nothing but what benefit him or her.
  Such people you could see is George Bush grandfather business relation with Nazi during WWII...
  
  I remember a few years back, many die hard republican southerners I met & talk about invading Iraq is  morally wrong and a huge political misalignment.  I've been accuse of anti America Al Qaeda sympathizer.  Contrary, when time to send their Enlisted children to the war zone, they would try pull strings within military high ranking officers   to reassign their son or daughter away from possible dispatch unit long before the assignment even confirmed. Nor they themselves interested to serve in the front line. Many of whom were republican in Leavenworth KS and Lansing, MI.  Some of them disgust me with those jokes such as kids will die in the street gang fight anyway, by sending them over there make them a real man and a patriot American. To this day, i still scratching my head on how's the value of real patriot American work in their perspective?
  

• The_Ranting_Logician said on Apr 18, 2007....

  I guess "people who attack our country" depeneds on your view...as you said it's pretty hard to define. I guess you could take it literally as physical attacks like 9/11 (I'm not going to go on some huge tyrade about terrorism lol) but one could also interprit it as verbal attacks. Verbal attacks I don't really mind because honestly, how often does America bash or make fun of others

• KayRoseOrchid said on Apr 18, 2007....

  hey~ bookmarking this for later! It looks like a good one!

• hunter_boyce_chandler said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Sean,

  Since I am the one that you suggested should move away from America if I didn’t agree with everything that this administration is doing, I am the one who stands in solidarity with the constitution and the set of checks and balances put in place by our founding fathers.

  As a grunt you are REQUIRED as a part of your job to have blind unquestioning obedience to your superiors, but that really is not the case is it?  Are you really required to have BLIND obedience?

  There was once a West Point Grad revealed himself to be the strongest in field tactician and leader of WWII and Korea. He disagreed with the policy of his president.  He did not move to China. He just changed jobs.  Google him under "Douglas MacArthur".

  Since I do not work for Uncle Sam, I do not owe him unquestioned agreement. 

  Anyone who suggests deportation of all dissidents "IS ANTI-AMERICAN".  After reading your kind and selfless blogs of how you hate everyone I think you need to take a breath.

  Stand down jarhead!

  HBC

   

• Ormocanon said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Interesting observation agentpit. Are you American?

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Who suggested deportation?  I suggested immigration, they are different.
   
  Jarhead?  Ouch that's almost as bad as droppin te double D on a guy.
   
  Isreal is still our friend and really there isn't much you can do about it.  So I would still consider citing irreconcilable differences.
   
  Its not like your job has anything to do with the allies of this country.
   
  Also welcome to the party, it was thrown in your honor after all.  :-P

• truthsayer said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Emmigration?  Oh, you suggested that he immigrate to some other, more appropriate country that suit his ideals and tendancies ; )

  I'll stir the pot a bit.  If everyone wants to be so "European"...

• truthsayer said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Oh yeah, and "Welcome BEAKER!"

  truth 

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Let he who is without typo make the first correction.  :-)

• hunter_boyce_chandler said on Apr 18, 2007....

  SeanRenaud,

  In all reality I have a Great deal of respect for you and every young Marine. 

  I think jarhead is a complement.  You are one of the good guys.

  I raise a glass to ya.

  HBC

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 18, 2007....

  I was playing, nobody really uses Jarhead anyway, least not that I ever saw.  Devil Dog (another term for Marine) is used as a form of psuedo profanity.  Its very rare that the term is used in a positive way between Marines.  If someone yells out Devil Dog usually the first response is what did I do?

• TinSoldier said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Heh. That's funny. My dad always used the term "Jarhead" because he was Navy. That's why I use it from time to time, even though I didn't while I was on active.
  
  I never thought about the term "Devil Dog" the way you put it, but that sounds right. Of course, we would use variations on a theme... and call each other much less flattering things from time to time.
  
  Same with "Leatherneck".
  
  Ahh, the good ol' days! I miss them, sometimes. I miss my buds, too.
  
  Sorry, OT, I know.
  

• KayRoseOrchid said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Anti-American=invalid argument
  one that voices his/her opinion is not an America-hater.
  I laugh everytime I hear someone throw out that "insult."
  
  hey beaker!
  

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 18, 2007....

  Same thing with when somebody who out ranks you calls you by rank, its never good.

• truthsayer said on Apr 19, 2007....

  Did you know a man named "Pistol" while you were in Iraq?  It wasn't his real name, but it might as well have been.  His dad was called Pistol Pete, and they called his son Pistol.  His grandfather had some gun name too. 
   
  Their son's name is Gage but the new baby's name was Rachel.  It seems that only the boy's got the gun names.  I did suggest Daisy for the little girl though ; )
   
  That is strange about the name.  Small world.
   
  truth

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 20, 2007....

  Negatory, cool name though.

• TheBeastHeMetCa said on Jun 15, 2007....

   Personally, I am an American Patriot who supports Al Qaeda, Hamas, Taliban and other backward third world tribalists as well as manifold multi-diverse American gangs. I advocate even to CIA, Secret Service, Homeland Security, my Representatives, Congress persons for the assassination of President Bush and cabinet, starting with the V.P.. I call this advocacy, petitioning my government. I dont want to leave my America, I want to stay and fight.

   I want to run illegal aliens out of this nation, beat them public at the border and put them in forced hard labor concentration camps, give them three beans a day and have them build us a fancy mexican rock wall along our border. I want to end the drug war by allowing everytown US its own citizens vote over all issues of gangs and drugs in their cities and enforce with local authoritiy, ie muscle de man. I rather see gangs in work programs for drug cultivation, manufacturing, sales and use controled and with liabilities and responsibilities rather then run amock idiots.

   

   

• dtpace said on May 07, 2008....

  Thebeasthemetca...

   

  You're an American patriot who supports Al Qaeda & Hamas?  What freakin drug are you on?  What a nut job...

• ALIENated said on May 07, 2008....

  
  Not to worry. I am pretty sure thebeast is one of TheNuttyNakedProfessor's
  aliases.
  
  

• seularts said on Jun 27, 2008....

  If america falls, a big economic dissaster will occure. From my point of view this is the best thing, because some big sacrifices must be done in order for humans to survive. First of all the economy must fall, the curancy, mainlly money must dissapeare, the way the world is being lead. All governments must fall, and a big part of the human race must die.. because this planet isn't big enough for all the current population. The planet can sustain 1 bilion at the most and we are 6, just survivng out of technology, and all this technology will destroy us the way we live and this world. So i strongly sustain that america first falls. And who knows perhapes we can learn and do good afterwords. But america is the no 1 enemy and all the wrong in the world is done out of the american government dissperation and wars. We can't change things over night with talk, so only action and a bit of chaos can straighten things up more!

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 27, 2008....

  ROFL we can support much more than what we have with just current technology, and as technology increases we'll be able to support much more.  Stop listening to idiots.

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