truthsayer's tags:
Okay fellow think babies.  Pull back the red checked curtains on the windows of the Cosmic Cafe...peek out...I am the one in the tree outside, that is just about to go out on a cosmic limb.  After buck_rooster pointed out that some of the terms on my last blog, may have crossed up a bit and caused some confusion - which I happen to hate!  I have decided to gain a little insight from you all, before I proceed much further.
 
I was wondering how many of you have heard of the Big Bang?  Cosmology is the study of, or the theory of the early universe.  As Fred Wolf defines it:  "How all that we can imagine as physical began about 15 billion years ago." 
 
I am using his definitions for consistency.  I am sure you can find other definitions in the dictionary, or in encyclopedias.  Here is his definition of the Big Bang:
 
"A gigantic explosion at the beginning of time when all matter, energy, space, and time were suddenly created."
 
I remember years ago, I made a collage for art class.  On the collage, I had a poem called, "Am I A Cosmic Accident?"  It was quite disheartening to me, as I recall.  I believed in Destiny, even as a child.  I knew that I had a special purpose...I knew that everybody had a special purpose.  I could see it in my friends' faces, and I often "read people", so to speak. 
 
I was an animal charmer too ; )  I had tons of animals of my own:  Dogs, cats, chipmunks, a raccoon, snakes, mice, gerbils, turtles, fish, parakeets, and even bugs that I was sure were my little friends.  
 
I loved children, babies and always stood up for the broken, bruised and battered of society, young, disabled and old.  How could we all be accidents?  I just could not fathom.
 
But, prayer had been taken out of the schools, so all we had to explain our wonder, was science.  I loved science.  I loved nature.  I spent all of my free time in the woods by our house.  I even wrote poetry and took naps in my favorite tree, although not at the same time ; )
 
Was I a cosmic accident?  No.  I don't believe so.  I am not a chaos junkie like some folks are today.  Heck, I grew up in total chaos, and I didn't like it very well at all.  I loved going to my grandparents' house, and having some order, some safety, some rules and boundaries that I could trust.  It is hell being a kid with no rules, no one to look after you, no one that is really paying attention. 
 
That's how I imagine many people feel that don't, or feel like they just can't believe in God.  I am even grateful that my dad was sort of, well, not involved in much of my childhood,  He was there, but he was a heavy drinker and thus, very self involved.  He was in his own sad little world.  I know why he medicated himself now, but then, I could only guess.
 
I think he and my mother were the two lonliest people I ever knew.  Each living in their own minds, their own emotions, and rarely finding solace in anyone, or anything.  I didn't blame them though.  I just heard that I had a heavenly Father, and I asked Him if that was true?  He assured me that it was true, and told me that He was very proud of me for not blaming my parents.  I felt special that He loved me, and He was proud of me.  
 
Our Father/Child relationship became more real to me than my own family of origin was.  He didn't explain everything to me, mostly, He just reassured me that He was there, actively watching over me, loving me, and that He Himself, would help me to grow up.
 
So you see, if I hadn't turned to God at such a young age, I might believe that I was an accident, cosmic or natural...but an accident.  I came late in life.  My parents were 38 when they had me.  That's not old by today's standards, but it was "old" for back then.  I really was "an accident" in that I certainly was not planned ; )
 
As it was, I had a very depressed mother and a very depressed father.  My father covered up his depression with alcohol.  My mother was different.  She is a very smart lady, but she acts like she isn't.  I guess that is what she medicated herself with...denial.
 
Back to my Big Bang cosmology question.  Do you wonder how the known universe began?  Do you know any other theories of origin, besides of course, evolution; which we have all been taught since 1924?  It was in 1924 that they first challenged the school systems to be able to teach the theory of evolution.  Before that, you and I would have read the Bible, and memorized it, and we would have all known the story of Creation. 
 
Now, we have the theory of evolution, Creationism, and the Intelligent Design.  The schools don't allow prayer.  Schools have changed drastically since they took prayer out of the schools, it is like they took God out, and now, they wonder where children's values have gone.  But, that is another blog folks ; )
 
Some schools teach all three.  I think they leave it up to the teachers and school systems in most states.  But educational materials are standardized in public schools.  Some teach Creationism.  It is decidedly rare, but on the rise. 
 
I am not surprised that most people only believe in evolution.  It has been taught pretty much as fact, instead of a theory without proof, or evidence.  I believe that it is this lopsided view we are giving our youngsters in school and in the media, that leave them feeling spiritually and emotionally bankrupt.  Of course there are many other factors as well, like we have the first daycare generation that is in their 30's now...Generation X, isn't it?  But for me, it is mostly because we keep taking God out of our lives.  Without God, we have randomness, chance, chaos, and cosmic accidents. 
 
There is even a science term to describe our cosmic origins that sounds like it is politically correct and evolution friendly language:  Anthropic Principle.  It states "that from an infinite number of possibilities nature could have selected to mae a universe, it selected this one so that we could be created."   
 
 
 
So, are you a cosmic accident?
 
 
copyright April 14, 2007 Truthsayer 


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Comments

  • truthsayer said on Apr 14, 2007....
    If you see any accidents, mistakes, or typos...let me know, and I will make corrections : )
     
    Thanks, I am looking forward to your insights!
     
    truthsayer
  • curmudgeon said on Apr 14, 2007....
    The Big Bang actually doesn't start quite at the beginning of the Universe. See, the Big Bang is said to have occurred when disparate elements - in the form of various gases, condensed through a state of mutual attraction to the point where they built enough critical mass to blow completely apart.
     
    The evidence for this lies in our observations that stars and galaxies as far out as we can see are moving away from us - and not just at a constant rate, but at an accelerating one. We know this because our instruments indicate that these stars are "Red Shifted", meaning the light that reaches us is mostly in the longer wavelengths.
     
    Apart from the possibility that our observations may be due to a cause other than a Universal explosion, the Big Bang theory also doesn't tell us how these gases came into being in the first place. I don't know of any experiment or theory where elements like hydrogen just spontaneously occur out of nowhere. Apparently the elements were just always there.
     
    So we really find ourselves in the middle of a mystery with no beginning and seemingly no end.
     
    Kind of like our idea of an eternal God. Without beginning and without end.
     
    Am I a cosmic accident? Only if I limit myself to my own personal, limited set of circumstances. In a finite Universe made up of elements that operate according to the Laws of Physics, there are no accidents. Chains of events give rise to others. An honest scientist would say that we are all intimately connected, bound up together in this time-space we call a Universe.
     
    The only "random" stuff that goes on in this Universe is the noise in our own minds.
  • beyondtheveil said on Apr 14, 2007....
    truth- The Big Bang happens to be the present conventional wisdom and I believe that is about all it will ever amount to. This theory makes an assumption at a point where known physics do not apply (what caused the so-called exploson) to an explanation of the known cosmos, much of which is speculation, such as how the galaxies formed.
     
    Another of the theories is the many worlds interpretation, which is a somewhat absurd theory, but many physicists like because it gets rid of infinities.
     
    A popular theory has been string theory which made a leap lately due mainly to the work of Lisa Randall by bringing in an 11th dimension which brought the existing string theories together. Perhaps string theory will eventually replace big bang.
     
    My point is, science is doing what it has always done, and that is taking steps to further their overall knowledge. Todays conventional wisdom is tomorrows history of the learning process. I believe our children will see the day that big bang is relegated to the archives of the past.
     
    I do not believe there to be a "moment" of creation. I believe there to be an eternal moment. Our five senses realize an infinitesimal part of what is going on around us.
     
    Do I believe we are a cosmic accident?
    I believe we have hardly begun to understand.
  • buck_rooster said on Apr 15, 2007....

    Have we heard any other theories?  Well!  Glad you asked!  hehehe

    The creator of the comic strip “Dilbert” wrote a small book that as far as I know was only published online.  It is entitled “God’s Debris,” and is the story of a package delivery man who happens by a “keeper of the keys,” in my words.  This keeper is about to die, and apparently the package delivery person has been chosen to carry on this unknown truth about how the universe began.  It is a long train of thought, and I twinge to reveal it here for fear of ruining the story for those who have yet to read it (which is just about everyone!)  Anyhow, the theory goes: God, in His omnipotence and omniscience and all those other omni He possesses, has nothing left to experience other than death, and so the logical conclusion is that He commits suicide (the big bang) and the result is all this debris, of which we are a part!  We are all God’s debris.

     

    Now, I find this interesting because it explains a possibility, however fantastic it might be, that I would have never conjured, and that sort of creativity entertains me.  I also find this theory interesting because as a classical realist (a definition of what sort of philosophy makes the most sense to me,) I identify with the likes of Aristotle, Plato and a guy who’s a little younger (died in 1647ish) named Benedictus Spinoza.  Spinoza’s great work, published posthumously by his benefactor, is entitled “The Ethics,” and uses the principles of math and science to come to the conclusion that God and Nature are synonymous.  He also claims there is no such thing as a miracle (they are merely acts of nature that we have no explanation for) and, surprisingly amongst all of this seemingly non-believer rhetoric, he states that the only person ever to live with a complete knowledge of God was Jesus, who actually possessed the mind of God!

     

    I like curmudgeon's explanation of the only place randomness exists. hehehe

    beyondtheveil (which my mind always does a double-take of, thinking it read beyondtheevil!) makes two good points: todays wisdom is tomorrow's history of the learning process, and the comment about how inadequate our five senses are.

     

    Anyhow, good job truthsayer!  Expand your mind!  I’ll look for the link to God’s Debris if there is any interest.  I may have to “republish” it from my harddrive onto my blog.  Let me know if you guys are interested.

     

    Love,

    buck

  • silverwhisper said on Apr 15, 2007....
    truthsayer: if you truly were a scientist, you'd understand that the word "theory" has a very specific meaning in science that it lacks in its less strict and general usage. i've said this before. your continued bad faith use of the word calls into question either your intellectual honesty or factual honesty.
    curmudgeon: interesting. i've never heard a scientist suggest that anything predated the big bang. may i ask where you encountered that idea?

    ed
  • kelly said on Apr 15, 2007....
    "I am not surprised that most people only believe in evolution.  It has been taught pretty much as fact, instead of a theory without proof, or evidence."

    Well, this is not true.   The big bang is taught as a theory and even physcists keep poking at it.  Theories are arrived at based on a preponderance of evidence and logical conjecture.  I'm not sure why you are conflating religion with science as you do when you compare two things that can't be compared:  An outlook based on nothing more than faith and an outlook based on observable phenomena.

    So, the big bang is a theory--which, by the way has nothing to do with the evolution theory--and creationism and intelligent design are beliefs
  • truthsayer said on Apr 15, 2007....

    Thanks for the insights curmudgeon.

    Did you know that there are "mysterious" blue shifted stars too? I thought that was provocative.

    Information overload, over stimulated...noisy brains, yes, I agree ; )

    No one in science knows what would have initiated the "big bang" do they?  We can only make educated guesses I suppose.

     I will have to read more about String Theory. There is so much information, isn't there? What is it the Bible says about how fast knowledge will increase in the "end"?

    Thanks again,

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Apr 15, 2007....
    I agree with you beyondtheveil, regarding most of our understanding today, "much of which is speculation". 
     
    You are certainly right about scientists either "liking" or "disliking" infinities ; )  Hot debates, and they take their own research and conclusions as gospel.  Part of academia that I remember most vividly.  I only worked at the university, not professor you know.  : )
     
    Oh (sorry curmudgeon) it was you, beyond, that mentioned the String Theory by name.  I really must read more about that again.  I am fascinated with the different dimensions.  I used to have a list of them with understandable descriptions, but sadly, I cannot find it. 
     
     You said:  "Todays conventional wisdom is tomorrows history of the learning process."  I agree here too.  Who would have guessed that by reading the Bible, long enough to really get it into me, make it a part of me, that I would find all these years later, that quantum physics would be used to explain God's words?  Weird.
     
    "I believe there to be an eternal moment."  Interesting beyondtheveil. 
     
    Thanks a lot for your insights. 
     
    truthsayer
  • truthsayer said on Apr 15, 2007....

    Buck, your description is exactly what Frank Herbert described in the Dune Trilogy.  In it, the Dune Messiah fathers two children with precient knowledge, and the boy child, due to understanding the cell memory of all of his ancestors, he knows that he has to do just what you said, that the only the logical conclusion is that "He commits suicide (the big bang) and the result is all this debris, of which we are a part!" 

    You might really enjoy it, if you haven't read it yet.

    I have read this:  Spinoza's, “The Ethics,” which "uses the principles of math and science to come to the conclusion that God and Nature are synonymous."  It has been a long time though. 

    You said:  "the only person ever to live with a complete knowledge of God was Jesus, who actually possessed the mind of God!"  This is true.  We have the mind of Christ though, thank God : )

    Expand my mind?  I think I would be better off using the mind of Christ, as he promised me.  I think that is expanded and focused at the same time.

    Thanks for your insights buck.

    truthsayer

     

  • truthsayer said on Apr 15, 2007....

    Ed, Ed, Ed...you said, AGAIN, "truthsayer: if you truly were a scientist, you'd understand that the word "theory" has a very specific meaning in science that it lacks in its less strict and general usage. i've said this before. your continued bad faith use of the word calls into question either your intellectual honesty or factual honesty."

    So Ed-buddy, I asked for your insights.  Since you are a scientist, and I am not (I merely have my Bachelor of Science, and some Master's hours that are expired ; )  Please, take this opportunity to enlighten me.  I asked for your insights, and I asked for correction...please, you have the floor...

    I await your insights and your corrections.  You won't hurt my feelings at all. 

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Apr 15, 2007....

    Hi Kelly.

    Are you saying that evolution is "an outlook based (purely?) on observable phenomena"?  As opposed to God who you believe is "not observable"?  See, whether you like it or not,  I think it takes more "faith" to accept evolution, as based on the current evidence, than it does to believe in a Creator.  But I know that you are quite dedicated to your own beliefs, so I would not hope to persuade you to my beliefs. 

    I am not all that "religious" in fact.  My relationship with God...not that we were discussing that in this blog, but, anyway, my relationship with God is based on my faith, yes, but you don't understand what faith is, I do have evidence, that you cannot understand.

    You say that creationism and intelligent design are beliefs, only.  I think the creation scientists would beg to differ.  I am not very interested in the Intelligent Design Theory either.  Probably for different reasons than yours.

    Anyway, thank you for your insights.  

    truthsayer  

  • kelly said on Apr 15, 2007....
    Faith has nothing to do with evolution or the big bang.  They are theories based on scientifically observable phenomena.

    You are welcome to redefine words any way you see fit.  Just don't expect me to go along with it.

    Additionally, creation science is an oxymoron.  And you appear to have gotten the anthropic principle completely wrong.
  • hotaka said on Apr 15, 2007....
    Truth, I would love to spend a good deal of time chatting with you over weekly coffees (or frapaccinos as that is my thing even in winter). Yes, I think we are reading the same book and appropriately so I think we would sit on opposite sides of the table because our views are different but in way that is understandable and that would draw us closer as friends. What I am saying is that I like what you have to say. I can relate. I too am an animal lover though I don't keep the pets i want to because I love them to much to encourage their pilfering from nature (reptiles are my favourite, particularly lizards). I was bullied as a child so I stand against bullying. I have always respected my elders so I would stand up for seniors. But that was not really what I wanted to say.

    If you see my book shelf you will find various titles concerning the origins and future of the universe and earth. I won't claim to be a scientific genius because I have to read those books a few times before things really stick but they do get me thinking. My original forays into religion were through science. But I found that a guy who wanted to credit God with evolution and the Big Bang was not particularly favoured. Unless I believed exactly what the Bible said, I was not a Christian. So I left. Personally, I find that the more I read about science the more I feel there is a strong argument for a creative force that could be ascribed to a supernatural being. Always a sceptic to pin things down exactly I do enjoy following concepts that make sense to me and will argue their plausibility until I find something that ultimately changes my mind. As a follower of science, I see no shame is casting aside former beliefs in order to accomodate new ones that make more sense (again, something my fellow worshippers of yesteryear didn't understand - you built up your belief, you didn't change it). The book I mentioned in another blog, "Hyperspace" is really inspiring. There is another by Robert Shapiro about searching for life on other planets that has a very heavy religious base though it is a science book.

    Ah, I am loosing my train of thought.

    My final comment, you mentioned how the removal of prayer from schools has contributed to the decline of values in society. That fits in nicely with the concept that humans have evolved to believe in a god because it gives them an evolutionary advantage. Much to say on that and I think there are a couple of recent posts about it which you may have seen. Perhaps by giving up our belief in God we are reverting to a more chaotic time. Are we devolving?
  • kelly said on Apr 15, 2007....
    If you really want to see devolution in action just look at the very religious and oppressive fundamentalists in action all over the world.  What could be more chaotic than suicide bombers?  Those are the people with a very strong belief in a god.
  • mom said on Apr 15, 2007....
    Truth- I am just a little middle aged white woman ;)  but I would like to offer some of my thoughts and opinions. I firmly believe there is a God and so instead of people using science to disprove that we have a living God. Why can't we say we have science because of God?  Could it be possible that God took matter that was already there and created the worlds?  Is it possible that God is the greatest scientist that ever was?  The glory of God is intelligence. 
  • boyzmom said on Apr 15, 2007....

    There is so much information out there, I could see how it could be difficult to decide if such an "accident" could happen or if it happened with a purpose. I now believe in what works, when we live our lives with purpose and see God as the creator, that works. I mean if someone needs to recover from drug abuse or alcoholism, they use the same 12 steps that have worked for numerous others, so why wouldn't I use the skills/ knowledge taught in the Bible that have worked for many others.

    There is evidence that the Earth is not going to exist forever because the Hydrogen in it is going to be used up faster than it could possibly be replenished. And that leads us to question of how long have we been consuming the Hydrogen and whether God could create a planet that seems to be aged, like he created an adult man and woman, to put an end to the question of whether the planet was accidently formed from some random gases in the cosmos that took a billion years to get to the point where life could exist. Again, there is evidence for all theories and beliefs because nobody wants to believe in something that could not be explained so it really is a complex question. 

  • kelly said on Apr 15, 2007....
    What does hydrogen supply have to do with the existence of the earth?  Do you possibly mean the hydrogen supply in the sun?  If so, don't worry, it's not going to run out for about six billion years.

    I think the problem here is that everybody is getting it backwards.  God did not create people.  People created god.  No scientists are trying to disprove the existence of god.  That would be idiotic.  The burden of proof is on proving that something exists.
  • mom said on Apr 15, 2007....
    HI Kelly- I think that is where Faith comes in at.
  • kelly said on Apr 16, 2007....
    Yes, I know that.  Just as a side question, how do you know there's no Tooth Fairy?
  • mom said on Apr 16, 2007....
    LOLOLOL, because I am the tooth fairy.  There can be only ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 16, 2007....
    truthsayer: a meaningful such definition of theory can be found here. the specific definition i intended goes like this:

    the american heritage science dictionary (2002 edition) quoth:
    a set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena. most theories that are accepted by scientists have been repeatedly tested by experiments and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

    ed
  • beyondtheveil said on Apr 16, 2007....
    mom- If I may say something about your comments and questions.
     
     First, few scientists use science to disprove God. A few do in the likes of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. The others do not as is the case of the scientist I mentioned by the name of Lisa Randall. Like so many others, she loves science, but it is not out  to disprove God but to search for the truth as she can find it.
     
    Second, I don't believe there is any such thing as God "using the matter that was already there". God is everything, and the reason for and the existence of everything.
     
    Lastly, be there a God, He will truly be the greatest scientist and not only the glory of intelligence, but will be all intelligence and all consciousness, the latter of which I believe to be the entire cosmos.
  • mom said on Apr 16, 2007....
    Thanks beyond- All of the scientists I have listened to have believed in evolution and such.  I think I have heard of one that did believe in God.  So my refernce was only to the ones I have heard of.
    Because our knowledge is so limited, I have often kicked other ideas around.  I can't say that i know that is what he did, just is it possible.
    I had already said that he would be the greatest scientist, and of course his intelligence would span everything.
  • hotaka said on Apr 17, 2007....
    Kelly, good point about the crazy suicide bombers. However, I think they are following people who have let them believe that what they are doing is following God. They believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife and so they die willingly without questioning their leaders because they think it is the word of God. That's where the purpose of a belief in God gets twisted into manipulation for evil purposes. *sigh* It's a wicked world.
  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    First, let me say that I am inspired by all of the brilliance in these comments.  I believe that you have all shown yourselves to be thoughtful and expressing your true positions with such candor, that I am forced to take this to prayer, before going on with my comments. 

    You know, that there are certain people who have commented in this blog, that probably consider themselves to be brilliant, or at least intellectually gifted in some way; but I am impressed with the insights and intellectual honesty of several that probably do not consider themselves to be brilliant, but are humble and self effacing.

    I thank all of you for your heart felt comments, and some for your research.  I hope and pray that I can answer, or comment to your comments, in a satisfactory way.

    Please forgive me for taking so long to comment back to you all...but, suffice to say that I am, at this very moment, indulging myself with a large glass of whole raw milk, and a big piece of home made chocolate birthday cake, with chocolate frosting!

    I shall comment to each person, as best I can.  I realize now that I am a scientist of sorts, ed.  I was recently offered a graduate assistanceship and entrance into the PhD program (at my former university, or at Kansas, or other university with programs within my discipline)...and I guess, for the confidence of those I am about to comment to, that must count for something. 

    I am not prone to speaking of things out of turn, or season, or that I have not researched for myself.  I am not perfect, but I am intellectually and morally sincere, and if I do not know something, I will not claim to know it for certain.  We all have to be allowed to question, and to "think outloud"...at least, you can in my blog ; ) I'll make sure of it.

    truthsayer

     

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    HOTAKA:

    I believe we would be fast friends too.  I do not require that my friends agree with me.  I used to lead salons, first online, and then in book stores.  Understanding is much more important to me than agreement.  My favorite radio show was a magazine format...loved it, more discussion.  The other one was an hour, and it was harder for me...couldn't delve too deeply into subjects and they wanted more of an argumentative, self righteous approach. 

    I love coffee in any form, btw!

    Anyway : )

    I am sorry about your early experiences with a Christian church.  You may have read my own prejudices against Fundamentalist Christians, years ago.

    Few Christians have a clue what to do with me either, if it is any comfort!  But I would encourage you to develop a technique similar to mind mapping (in case you have heard of it).  I have always had those 3D maps in my head...silly me,  I thought we all thought that way! 

    I suppose it has to do with the 'abstract reasoning' thing I have mentioned before.  I tend to take information and automatically compare it to stored information searching for relationships and outright conflicts.  I do not discard the 'seeming' conflicts, but store them for later recall and comparison to new information, as I become aware of it.  If that makes any sense.  I have had to do that in all areas of my life. 

    I, of course, know God personally, experientially, in an observable way, and also in a scholarly way.   So I have all of the things that I know, stored much like BOYZMOM...I am seeking usefulness, and efficacy. 

    That way, when someone tells me that I have to accept evolution in order to be a scientist, for instance; or that I have to accept their understanding of the Word of God, in order to be a Christian...I am not in conflict. 

    I have already claimed the Biblical promise that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit will teach me directly...so I do not have to rely on man, for anything.  If you would like to know the scriptures I claimed in order to asked God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit to teach me directly (circumventing the error of man), I would be glad to provide them...merely ask me, and I will list them in here.

    I should like to read the book, Hyperspace, by Robert Shapiro.  I can add it to my ever growing library!  After receiving the offer from my old university, I renewed my interest in my old college books, and others that I had read, and some that I had purchased, but had never made the time to read! 

    My doctor laughs at my choice of "casual reading" ; )  Wait till she sees the ones my family just bought for me!  I have six new books, most are about quantum physics, and a few about nanotechnology, the apocalypse (from the stand point of current scientific research...not religion), and one about the force of Islam and Christianity during the 'end times'.  I am also rereading some of my classics that are now out of print.  I am busy, but happy and quite interested in my research again ; ) 

    Your "final comment" HOTAKA, I am reserving for another blog, so bear with me!  I have done quite a bit of research on this, and I think you will find it surprisingly consistent.  I love it when I am surprised at what I find.  It even fits in with many other comments in this blog.  Devolving?  Many say that we are.  Hold that thought, ok?

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    KELLY, you might be surprised at some of the things I have found in my research lately.  I will be posting some of it soon.  I agree with you about the suicide bombers.  But, you may not feel the compassion for them, that I do.  Some of them simply are not driving their own cars, you know?  Deception is a powerful and seductive delusion. 

    (btw, I acknowledge and honor your right to believe in athiesm, or to believe that there is no God/god....please take this in the spirit in which it is meant.  You know my beliefs too...so no disrespect, either way, ok?) 

    I feel compassion, specifically, for the ones that have been kept in isolation, and are raised like robots, unallowed to question, or learn about any faith other than Islam.  Women and children are so very oppressed in their culture, and that is an indicator, for me, of their misunderstanding of God Almighty (who is not Allah, btw)...but that is another post too.

    We were discussing the Big Bang Theory, weren't we?  ; )

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    MOM:

    Yes mom.  You said:  Why can't we say we have science because of God?...Is it possible that God is the greatest scientist that ever was?

    As a matter of fact, Francis Bacon is considered to be the father of the scientific method, and he was a devout Believer. 

    I copied this just for you:

    Sir Francis Bacon

    By Henry Morris

    Reprinted (with permission) from:
    Men of Science, Men of God
    pages 13,14

    Francis Bacon, Lord Chancellor of England, is usually considered to be the man primarily responsible for the formulation and establishment of the so-called “scientific method” in science, stressing experimentation and induction from data rather than philosophical deduction in the tradition of Aristotle.

    Bacon’s writings are also credited with leading to the founding of the Royal Society of London.

    Sir Francis was a devout believer in the Bible. He wrote: “There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power.”

    *******

    Opposite the title page of Darwin’s Origin of Species appears the following quotation:

    ‘To conclude, therefore, let no man … think or maintain that a man can search too far or be too well studied in the book of God’s word, or in the book of God’s works; divinity or philosophy; but rather let men endeavor an endless progress or proficience in both.’

    The author is Francis Bacon, and the quotation is from his 1605 book The Advancement of Learning. Here is the classical statement that there are two ways of understanding the character of God, through the Bible, and through the world he has made.

    Evolution the Great Debate, Vernon Blackmore & Andrew Page, Lion Publishing, 1989, p. 22

     

    Now, as to your comment on matter, I have some information that you may find interesting, on a coming blog about the 'origins of' matter.  It is more about quantum physics and God.  I think you'll find it interesting.  I haven't even touched on the meaning of "matter" yet ; )  Hold that thought mom!

    You said:  The glory of God is intelligence.  Think about this.  The Bible says a lot about the Glory of God and POWER...and that is the one thing that evolutionists, naturalists, and mainstream scientists cannot understand or explain.  What kind of power runs this vast machine we call "universe"?  What kind of power runs the micro and nano worlds that we now know exist in the universe, and even in our own bodies?  It is 'against all odds' that people continue to believe that this intricate and often wacky world just 'happened' and now, 'runs itself'. 

    I have few posts coming up on this and other related topics.  I could cut and paste them here, but my comments are already getting loooong ; )

    Thank you for your comments mom.  Please keep coming back.  We each have a very special and completely unique part to play, and special unique knowledge that we have to share...it is our Christian duty, as the Bible says.  Don't sell yourself short lady.  Fancy words are just that...fancy, but no better than simple understandable words!  I prefer the latter, but have to walk in both worlds...help me stay 'clear' and 'sane' in this jargon-saturated world, will you?  : )

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    BOYZMOM:

    I agree with you whole-heartedly.  Please see my uppercase reference to your nickname, in the comment to HOTAKA.  You cite the reasons perfectly, for my having a minor in Psychology, and a major in Human Communication Theory.

    The former focuses too much on mental 'masturbation'.  They will spend entire careers on one research path (not unlike most professors with a research specialty), but they will continue researching a thing, and even continue to be a proponent of it's use; when they know, full well, that it is a flawed theory, or concept, or instrument!!!  I found it to be ridiculous.  My best example is called Management By Obectives (MBO).  It doesn't work.  They require that you learn it, know it, study it, they even test you on it.  But, they know that it doesn't work...it never has.  How dumb is that?  I don't need information that we know doesn't work, failed theories, in my own personal hard drive, you know?  : )

    God works.  Jesus works.  The Holy Spirit works.  God's WORD works.  It is the ONLY thing I have found to be flawless.  He is the only Teacher that is omniscient.  Why would I want to have friends, peers, or other men/women as my supreme teachers?  I have had many teachers, but only one Teacher.  : )

    Others may disagree, but they do not know Him, do they?  So we cannot fault them, really.

    I thought this comment of yours was particularly interesting too:

    "...whether God could create a planet that seems to be aged, like he created an adult man and woman", and I confess, I do not remember ever heaing this from anyone else!  Congratulations on this very original insight.  I really appreciate it.  Why is it that we are always trying to fit God into our own little anthropomorphic, and egocentric little box?

    I try not to get into the timing thing with Creation, because, like you said, there is so much research, that it can be mind boggling.  I only address this if the Lord says that it is important to the particular discussion. 

    Charles Capps and his daughter, Annette Capps, which, btw provided my first confirmation that quantum physics points to the absolute truth of God's Word; they both believe that there has been more than one Creation, inbetween Genesis Chapter One and Genesis Chapter Two.  I suppose that "time" as we know it, would not have began in the Creation account, before the sun and the moon were created and in position.  Before that, if we could "be there" we may have seen Creation in "God's Time"...

    and... 

    Out of respect for the Creation Scientists, I mention it, but do not argue it.  They are the experts and they feel that we "sell out" as Christians when we diverge at all, from God's Word.  They feel strongly that Genesis One is telling us that the earth isn't nearly as old as evolutionists say, but much younger.  There is debate over the length of days, the shape of time, quickening of time.  There is relevance here though, for the Big Bang Theory.  But not enough time or space (tongue in cheek) in this particular blog to discuss it, I fear ; ) 

    Concluding my comment to you, you say that "it really is a complex question."  And that is the truth. 

    Thank you BOYZMOM, for your insights as well.  Please keep coming back?

    truthsayer 

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    MOM, faith in God is a concept, a reality, that KELLY is not able to, or is unwilling to, accept or even explore.  He just can't/won't.  No matter.  At least he still has a sense of humor ; ) 

    KELLY, tooth fairy?  Do you have children yet?  I suppose not ; ) 

    So MOM, it is your fault that my youngest left her tooth in the "tooth box" a few nights ago, and she got her $5 bill (inflation since my day I suppose ; ) but YOU FORGOT to take her tooth???  I suppose you were too tired to 'fairy' well, because you were up too late with your soulcast party friends again, huh?!?

    She decided to leave it in the box again, an see if she could get enough money for a 'better', more expensive Barbie!  lol...

    Thanks!

    truthsayer 

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    BEYONDTHEVEIL:

    You said:

    The others do not as is the case of the scientist I mentioned by the name of Lisa Randall. Like so many others, she loves science, but it is not out  to disprove God but to search for the truth as she can find it.

    I think I shall have to add this lady scientist to my library as well.  Any books in particular that you think I should purchase?

    Second, I don't believe there is any such thing as God "using the matter that was already there". God is everything, and the reason for and the existence of everything.

    Although I agree with these statements, I would like to bring this up again in a later blog about time/space and matter. 
     
    I also think you might find this intesting:  Remember the scripture that says that 'we live and breathe and have our being in Him' (if you want the chp:verse, I will look it up for you...but I am kind of trying to hurry now)?  When I was being trained in General Systems Theory, I realized that God was, or is, both in our environment, and in our system. 
     
    As you probably know an open system is that which is in constant interaction with the environment...and yet, God is also an object in my own system...I know it sounds funny...but as I became more proficient in defining my systems, I found that God is both IN my system, and also, in the environment.  This is explained more by quantum physics...and I will go into it in more depth later.  But, it is the scripture, and it is your very own comment.
     
    "Lastly," you said, "be there a God, He will truly be the greatest scientist and not only the glory of intelligence, but will be all intelligence and all consciousness, the latter of which I believe to be the entire cosmos."
     
    Well said BEYONDTHEVEIL. 
     
    Thanks again for your participation and for sharing your insights here.
     
    truthsayer
  • mom said on Apr 17, 2007....
    Truth- thanks, for your response, it is really appreciated.  I am sorry I didn't get to your daughter right away.  I ran out of fairy dust and tried to use flour, woo boy was that a mistake!
  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    Thank you for all the links you provided ED! 

    I thoroughly enjoyed reading them, and I confess, I did some bookmarking and "tagging" for later reference.  Great online dictionary references. 

    I hate to dissappoint you though...there wasn't anything that surprised me.  I am using theory in both the general sense, and the scientific sense.  I apologize though, if I sound sacreligious to you.  I have studied so many theories, that I just do not 'hold them up' as 'high' as you may.  Theories come and theories go.  Knowledge increases...but too often, old, accepted, out moded and poorly supported theories seem to stay in play, when, at best, they need to be honestly revamped to accomodate new research and new data. 

    Darwin had a lot of problems and conflicts, personally and within his own theory.  I don't have any problem at all with teaching it in schools, as one theory.  There are other theories though.  And there are variations on the old theories...there are some theories, like the way a physicist would view evolution, that although fascinating and more plausible to someone like me, they would probably be diffucult to teach in K-12.  

    Whether you or KELLY like it or not, there is ample Creation Science available.  As long as public schools and the minds of our impressionable and innocent children are the battle ground for humanists, evolutionists and outright deceivers, at best, promoters of incomplete information...my children will never attend a public school again.  I won't have them being taught lies.  I grew up in Nebraska...Nebraska man was just one deception.  There are many more.

    Now, do you have any insights to offer us regarding the Big Bang Theory? 

    I would love to hear them.

    Thanks again!

    truthsayer

       

     

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    Hey MOM:

    I found another reference for you! 

    This is a list, from just one website, of scientists (more than I could ever write here)...old/ancient and modern, that believe in God and the Bible!  It also tells if they believe in an 'old earth' or not.  This seems to be a hot debate, always.

    Here is the link:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/default.asp

    They also have an awesome search engine to look up answers to all of your questions at this link:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

    BOYZMOM, you might enjoy this too.  In fact ALL OF YOU, well, most of you will probably enjoy it very much.  Besides, the internet is somewhat anonymous...no one will know that you have looked up anything on the websites I give you...but you! ; )

    I confess that I don't use it as often as I should.  I tend to wing it from my own books, knowledge and the Bible.  But I really should use it more.  I tell my kids to, why don't I do it too?!

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....
    "It's a wicked world."  Yes it is at "present", HOTAKA.  But take heart, the kingdom of God is at hand.  : )
  • beyondtheveil said on Apr 17, 2007....
    truth- You must be aware by now that I am in the "searching" stage and I have a couple of comments and a question. In one of my comments I mentioned not believing there was a moment of creation, but an eternal moment. You replied "interesting".
     
    I do not believe in the passage of time in the conventional way. Time is a tool. The change we see is a manifestation of what we call motion. And scientists have no more described motion any more than they have time. If we go to an afterlife, I would not expect to experience time. Those who have an NDE experience say they do not feel time to exist.
     
    If time does not exist in an afterlife, I have difficulty believing there was a "moment" of creation. If I were to believe in God with certainty, I would believe God to be all consciousness of the cosmos and nothing else exists but this. God would be everything and our feeling of separation an illusion. Actually, I believe in total interconnectedness anyway. I do not believe matter to exist in the manner in which most think of it. I do not believe they will ever find a material building block of the cosmos, because there isn't one.
     
    The "God Consciousness" is the building block of the universe.
     
    Do you find these views crazy, or perhaps having some substance?
  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    MOM...ohhhh!  No wonder when we sprinkled it on our heads (are you seeing this? ; ) we were not able to FLY as we usually are!    What a disappointed mess we were!

    truth : P`

  • beyondtheveil said on Apr 17, 2007....
    truth- I forgot to add- "Warped Passages" by Lisa Randall. It is primarily on string theory, but she goes into particle physics also. She is one of the most respected physicists of the day. She did an interview with Charlie Rose, if you can catch it.
  • Holly-Go-Lightly said on Apr 17, 2007....

    OK--this is not some intelligently planned, organic, soulful expression that so many have spoken so well on the subject.

    This is I have a migraine, in a very cranky mood, and feeling opinionated.

    Let me first say that this is a subject that has always "burned my cookies" (trying to keep a G rating here).  I was brought up believing in God, and in the theory of Creation. I did not accept things in my life as a little robot, in fact, I moved away from most of the things I'd learned in early life. But to me, this was not negotiable.

    BTW--that suicide theory is disgusting. If I decided to start believing in Evolution, that discounts the entire first book of the Bible. So if that's not truth, maybe the entire book is not true?????  And I'm far from being an angel, but for me to say that would for me, be disrespecting God, and my PERSONAL relationship would then begin to falter.

    OK, so many some sort of Evolution existed, but only through the animals, humans, and plants that were already here!!   And even so--how does the Big Bang theory explain anything anyway??  Apart from the argument that that's what created the planets, solar system, our Earth.  Then where did every living thing come from in this theory?? I might grant that some form of plant life could've survived and begin to florish.  But what about animals??? Human beings???   I mean did the near dead body of old Lucy (said to be the first human being) just roll out of some rubble left over from the Big B and start up on the piece of earth they call Africa???  I think not.

    And the whole idea that man is descended from apes???? ha  They are a fascinating species and very, very close to so many characteristics, however their genetics are not human.

    We don't all have to agree--I find it interesting to hear of so many different beliefs.

    I'm just saying , human beings make everything so difficult--blind faith, that's what fuels my beliefs--blind faith--simple.

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    BEYONDTHEVEIL:

    Thank you for the reference.  I appreciate it.  I will get a copy.  I have been getting my used books on eBay...much cheaper than Amazon.  I will do a search for it soon.

    Does it, by chance, list the dimensions, with easy to understand examples?  I have got to find that list!  That is the one that says the sixth dimension would be like eating an orange from the inside out.  I love that....it sounded just like Jesus saying that the kingdom of God existed and would come from within us. 

    Thanks BEYOND.

    truthsayer

  • mom said on Apr 17, 2007....
    Truth- those sites are interesting. Thank you and I will look further into them. 
    Yes, it seems us tooth fairies are kind of a mess, but hey we are loved by children. LOL
    Truth- I always feel alone in my beliefs and it is so nice to find those that feel as I do.  I am rather hesitant about even discussing these things as it can cause arguments and I hate that.
    So thank you.
  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    HOLLY-GO-LIGHTLY:

    I am so sorry about that migraine.  Be healed in Jesus name.  I love the Charles Capps books on healing scriptures.  I take authority over my body, every day.

    Now...let me first say that you are right.  Faith is the name of the game, that is not a game.  It is everything.  It is so much more, even, than most Christians know.  We can do so much more than we are currently doing with our faith. 

    But, I digress, you are right.  Even for the doubters, they eventually must ask for and receive faith.  It isn't a enough to intellectualize God, by any means.  It is just that our society has so glorified science, facts, theories, categorization, nomenclature, taxonomies and classifications...in short, we have named and measured things almost to death! 

    It is high time for humans, to at least, recognize that there is 'proof' about God all around us.  He is the air we breath and the love we are able to share with each other. 

    Even athiests love, now.  But what happens when they die?  The only time that they have, to "get it" like you have gotten it, is now.  Their forever depends on it.  So, I use this quantum mechanics and other scientific theories, to show them that God, like MOM and BOYZMOM and so many others have said...is in everything.  Everything lives because He gave it life, and when it dies, well...that's the rub, isn't it?

    I hope that you did not think that I was saying that Christians that believe the Word of God are like little robots, do you???  I am not.  I do urge Christians to become informed though...as you can see, few in the church can answer their (athiests/agnostics/disillusioned Christians or former Christians, etc.) questions, or help them to find someone or some source to answer their questions.

    Faith is power.  Unfortunately, they do not usually understand that.  They will even (predictably) say that they have no interest in power.  That, of course, is not true.  Everyone has experienced the Power of the Universe, in one way or another.  Even ed.  He admits that he recognized the power/glory of the Holy Spirit, on at least one occasion.

    Evolution/adaptation, is interesting to consider.  I find that things seem to evolve, but in actuality, they are like hotaka said...devolving.  There is an ongoing debate, but I am amazed that people that have been exposed to the word, and its absolute truth, and have understood it, can still try to make evolution, as a theory of origins, fit into the Bible. 

    If the Big Bang was caused by the Voice and Word of God, when He said, LET THERE BE...then I can understand that it may be possible.  But frankly, there is much evidence, like some others said, that it may fall by the wayside.  There are stars and galaxies that are clearly not distributed randomly.  There are blue shifted stars that they have "seen" with the Hubble Telescope (I think that is where I read it, in an article about the trouble with Hubble ; ) that do not fit the ever expanding theory of the original Big Bang theory.  Also, we now know from quantum physics that the universe is not infinite, but finite.

    BTW, HOLLY-GO-LIGHTLY, you might be interested to know that "Lucy" was a hoax, a lie.  Most of the "evidence" should be called evi-dense ; )  But it does have some things that can be re-worked and made to be useful.  It wasn't a new theory with Darwin anyway.  I have a book from 1924 that lists many others, many centuries before that supposed the same things he did.  His biographers said that he had some mental problems too.

    Anyway, keep the faith HOLLY-GO-LIGHTLY; on this, we agree for sure  ; )

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    You are most welcome MOM.  I know what you mean.  I think there has been such a false-politically correct-taboo regarding faith and science or faith and knowledge in general.  I think this is the ultimate prejudice.  To use this country's freedom, paid for by the Blood of Jesus, to try to shut up Christians...with the tenets of their own faith, to be the most bizarre and satanic thing I can imagine.  But then, there's nothing new about that, is there?  Satan always tries to use God's own words against him, doesn't he?  A sneaky devil he is...but defeated, nonetheless.

    Thank God.

    By the word of our testimony and the blood of the lamb.

    Your friend,

    truthsayer 

  • mom said on Apr 17, 2007....
    yes, and you know we are facing more and more opposition. :)  Someday all this will be over, thank goodness.
  • truthsayer said on Apr 17, 2007....

    MOM, one last thing.  There is one thing I hate more than arguments...and that is indifference, my own, or others.  I have been guilty of this myself, so many times.  Our aversion to conflict, can keep us from living in the victory that He died to give to us.  You cannot be a light shining in the darkness, if you keep yourself under a bowl.  But then, you know that, don't you?  Don't we all...but how much easier it would be ; ) 

    I have seen you take on some challenges in here, and you did it with truth and grace.  What more can we ask of ourselves?  We often feel alone, but we aren't.  That "Elijah" syndrome is easy to come by, especially if we tend to hang out with "worldly" friends.  Maybe curmudgeon is right...maybe we all need to find each other, and fellowship more.

    I have more interesting websites that I will be posting soon.  I was rather amazed at how much is out there.  When I quote from my books, you all have to take my word for it...or go to a library!  We have such a short attention span, I decided that I had better use internet references as much as possible!

    Thanks for coming back.  I'll see you ~O-O~ soon,  and I look forward to every word.

    truth 

  • mom said on Apr 17, 2007....
    LOL Thanks!
  • hotaka said on Apr 18, 2007....
    I was just coming back to say the Robert Shapiro book is called "Planetary Dreams".

    As I was scanning the comments I saw this one you said, "Why is it that we are always trying to fit God into our own little anthropomorphic, and egocentric little box?" That is the biggest problem I have with fundamentalists. They are trying to make everything God does relate to us humans. Like you said after "I try not to get into the timing thing with Creation..." I think the whole time scale of Creation can't be taken too seriously because why should God be working in simple human numbers. It has taken many great minds to further our understanding of science and still there are many great mysteries. If God thought as simply and in numbers as small as we can comprehend then we would be a much simpler species.

    There used to be a SoulCaster here among us called thenack. He pointed me to some interesting links about Creation science. Many things that the general public has understood as requiring millions of years has been proven to take mere decades or centuries. However, these points came as no surprise to me because the natural processes described occured quickly - geologically speaking - exactly because of the particular circumstances of the case presented for argument. For example, the rapid rate of erosion around Mt. Saint Helens after the eruption was cited as proof that erosion doesn't require millions of years. I argued that what was being eroded was loosely packed volcanic ash that had not the time to consolidate and petrify. The rain of the Pacific Northwest could easily wash away copious amounts of ash and carve out gulleys and canyons in a short time. Eroding granite or basalt takes much longer.

    One thing I find interesting is that many Christians try very hard to prove that science is going the wrong way about a great many things and that the Bible tells us everything we need to know about Creation. However, as was discussed above, few scientists are trying to "disprove" God. They are merely trying to work out the mysteries of the universe. If God can be credited with all those remarkable things then what's the problem? Why can't we say that God made the rules that allowed certain chemicals to join and form complex protein chains that later developed into cells which grew to become more complex and advanced to form multi-celled organisms which later became larger and more varied, etc., etc.? What is wrong with saying that species came and went as the environment changed, continents drifted, volcanoes belched toxic smoke into the atmosphere, meteors acreted with the earth, glaciers advanced and retreated and finally we reach the present which is not really final but just the point we are most familiar with now?

    Something many Creationists don't quite get is that they think evolution is about taking the long way to get from A to Z. They say the alphabet was created and that's that. If we look at the universe on a time scale of 15 billion years then there is plenty of time for the alphabet to be repeated over and over or we can move on to other alphabets. If we consider language as a metaphor then there have been so many languages that have come and gone before the oldest English word was ever conceived. Creationists would say that we started with modern English and suggest that evolutionists are trying to argue that English started with Old English and evolved to the modern form. But evolutionists are saying that there were other languages that preceeded English and as each one language died out newer langauges appeared and some died out while others metamophosed into newer languages. A mountain didn't start out as a mountain. It was a lava sea, a black crust, a magma pool, a volcanic flow, a sedimentary deposit, a sea bed, a mountain, a plain, another sedimentary deposit, another sea bed, another magma pool, another volvanic flow, another mountain... Earth keeps changing. Every million years it looks totally different because the mountains are in different places, the oceans have changed, the deserts have moved, the climate and geography allow for different vegetation to thrive. Things are destroyed and new things are created. It's a cycle; not a line, not a dot.

    If you think about all the things we have sought and found out, discovered and discarded, taught and forgot, all the things science has brought us up until now, who would have believed or understood all that a few thousand years ago? Moses and Jesus did not come to teach partical physics, quantum theory, astronomy, planetology, chemistry, calculus and so on. The Sermon on the Mount did not mention trigonometry. The Beattitudes did not mention studying for a geophysics exam. The Ten Commandments didn't include anything about learning how to calculate in 10 dimensions. Religion is about living together harmoniously as a people under God with the purpose of doing right by Him and reaching Heaven. It doesn't matter which religion it is. Religion is about keeping people functioning as a beneficial society to all by having the fear of God in all if they should do something wrong. Religion is very much a culture and culture is a big part of keeping people together in solidarity. Science is more about finding out about what God created. It doesn't tell us how to live. It tells us what elements are in our wine, how many calories are in our bread, how a tornado is formed, why we have lightning, why there are rocks that look exactly like shells at the tops of mountains, why boulders that are totally out of place can be found sitting in a field miles and miles from the mountains, why stars twinkle, why hail falls in spring and summer.

    I think it is silly to try to say science is teaching against religion or that it is wrong. And religion shouldn't be trying to explain the world scientifically. There are thousands of Creation myths, one for every tribe and clan that ever existed. While many are close to describing Creation as science sees it in words, none of them have attempted to calculate anything or hypothesize about possibilities other than what they state in their Creation myths. What's wrong with trying to understand more?

    I am getting carried away.

    Anyway, truth, my style of blogging these days is to breeze through and write what comes to my mind first. But your cosmic cafe requires more time for digestion and reply. There are many great replies to your posts and I need time to read through them all and think carefully about what has been posted and what I recall from my books. I fear I may not always be able to contribute a worthy comment to your posts. But I will continue to read.
  • boyzmom said on Apr 18, 2007....
    I did look at that link. There is interesting information there, I think I have seen it before. The idea I mentioned about God creating an aged planet was just something I have heard and not really an original idea.
  • Holly-Go-Lightly said on Apr 18, 2007....

    thanks for the heads up on a couple things, and no,no I was not intending the comment about not being a robot to you, because I don't think you reason that way. It was more like a disclaimer to anyone who would say "oh, you were brought up in the church? so you just followed along? didn't have the curiosity or motivation to question the church? ever thought outside the box??--

    I'm sure you get it.  I just find science as an intruder when it comes to this subject. And if the Big Bang theory is truth--then where are heaven and hell--do they not exist??  I mean, the two just don't mesh. How can someone believe that a Big Bang created everything and then believe in heaven and hell as well? Its preposterous(sp?) to even think that way. Or, are most people that support the Big Bang deal the kind of people who believe there is nothing after life. Just :beep: and the light goes out and someone piles a load of dirt over you and that's that?? Well, that's a whole other post!!

    Holly

  • truthsayer said on Apr 18, 2007....

    lol HOLLY-GO-LIGHTLY! 

    Yes, there are a lot of assumptions made about the intelligence, creativity and ingenuity of Christians ; )  We know that it isn't so, however. 

    The Big Bang Theory is how they believe the cosmos began.  For me, since I am a believer and I am  in nanotechnology, I know, that I know, that I know, and I can assure others, that God can do in the twinkling of an eye, what it would take us millions of years to understand.  And we would never, ever understand everything about "how" He did it.

    After all, the Bible told us from the beginning, that the world was a sphere...and look how long it took "us" to figure out that it was true ; )

    Science isn't the enemy.  Sir Isaac Newton was a devout Christian, and he merely observed gravity, and other attributes of God's system design.  He studied the Creators creation, that's all. 

    The creation scientists are very interesting though.  I would encourage anyone that hasn't checked out the various websites for creation science, to do so.  I am glad that your faith is so strong Holly...I wish everyone would receive that kind of faith.  You are blessed.

    God Speed,

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Apr 18, 2007....

    BOYZMOM:

    I am glad you checked them out.  They both have children's sites as well.  We use them to balance out the worldly influence they get, even from TV and friends.

    Thanks for stopping back in to my little cosmic diner ; )

    truth

  • truthsayer said on Apr 18, 2007....

    HOTAKA my new friend.

    Almost all of the things that you mentioned, about the Christians that you have known, are sort of sad to me.

    If anyone has "evangelized" in any way other than to bring you the "good news", or the gospel of Jesus Christ, then I would like to apologize and ask your forgiveness.  If you had not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, and they got into all of the other, deeper things...well, I hope you can get past that.  All of the deeper things are wonderful.  They are things that pleasure God to share with us, and that we enjoy learning about from God. 

    The only thing that true Christians surely have in common (as our opinions and interpretations are many), is belief on, reliance on, and trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, born of a virgin, suffered for us, was crucified as the only possible atonement for our sins, He died, and rose from the dead on the third day.  If you accept that as a possibility (in quantum mechanics, a possibility is one possible universe ; ) then a probability, and finally as truth...then you repent, confess it, and receive Him.  That's it.  You have taken the first step to forever.  How that is so, is not something that God requires that you figure out.  It is so, because every word that has ever, or will ever proceed from His mouth, is true.  He is not a man that He should lie, argue, bicker, doubt, mislead or be misled.  He is the only One that I count on or with ; ) 

    I love your comments in here, and I can really see your wheels turning.  It is about faith...and the closest science will ever get to understanding faith at this time, and it will never fully explain it, is quantum physics...thus my titles in this little cosmic cafe...glimpse, glimmer, glance...etc.  For what we see here is in a mirror darkly...but there...oh hotaka...and I have been given a glimpse, seen a glimmer, and those are the only experiences of my "past" that are ever present with me.  I wish I could make you see, what I have seen.  I have often thought about writing about it: The experiences God has gifted me with.  But some of them, as you say, simply defy words.  I only hope that you and others will feel the Holy Spirit touching you with this truth, as I write and you read. 

    Thank you for the name to the Robert Shapiro book and the other one too...I will check them both out.  I have quite a wish list now.  : )

    Please, read, write, postulate, wax poetic.  Just keep coming back for a cuppa joe and some good conversations. 

    Thanks for being here with me today.

    truthsayer  

  • hotaka said on Apr 18, 2007....
    I'm reading you, truth. Just stopping by to say so. Thanks for reading my long comment.
  • kelly said on Apr 19, 2007....
    "I'm just saying , human beings make everything so difficult--blind faith, that's what fuels my beliefs--blind faith--simple."

    There you have it.  People would rather just not think.  End of discussion apparently.
  • mom said on Apr 19, 2007....
    I think all faith is blind.   I don't think that is bad, somethings we accept as truth, while you have to something  tangent.
    Kelly- do you believe in the bible?  There is a scripture in it about Thomas, who you are like.  Jesus said, blessed are ye, ye have seen and believed (paraphrased).  But blessed are those that believe and have not seen (paraphrased).  This is where our Doubting Thomas phrase comes from.
  • kelly said on Apr 19, 2007....
    You can't disbelieve in a book.  The book exists.   As for Thomas, I'm with him.

    For some reason I am reminded of a quote I read in Omni magazine years ago.  "The meek shall inherit the earth.  The rest of us are going to the stars."
  • mom said on Apr 19, 2007....
    Kelly- lolol
  • truthsayer said on Apr 22, 2007....

    kelly is stating an important truth though mom, whether we like it or not.  There are some that need, or demand signs wonders and miracles in order to believe.  It is up to us to learn to walk in the kind of faith that is able to manifest God's kingdom all around us.  Jesus said these things will follow them that believe...

    I think you and I had better get right, get real and get busy, don't you?  I for one think kelly and SeanR are worth it.  If they are like the doubting Thomas' of our day, then lets give them what they need so they can get onto their work in the Lord, like Thomas did.  I have met and claim as friends East Indians that know that it was the apostle Thomas that came to India and spread the Gospel.  What if kelly or SeanR have a ministry like that awaiting them?  And God is counting on us, to bring them the Gospel of Jesus Christ in a very real and tangible way that they cannot deny? 

    truthsayer 

  • kelly said on Apr 22, 2007....
    Let's be clear about something.  You don't have a blind faith in god, you have a blind faith in what others have told you about god.  Since I doubt you would be willing to say that you talk with god directly you would have to say that any knowledge you have about a supposed god comes not from that god but from other people.  And why would you blindly accept something people are telling you that seems so utterly fantastic?

    The only reason I can think of is that people want so very much to believe that there is some unseen guiding hand that they simply fail to question what they are told.  I don't know about most people but I find this ability to believe in fantastical beings and attribute everyday influences to them to be atavistic and scary.  Blind faith is NOT an admirable trait.
  • truthsayer said on Apr 23, 2007....

    Oh but I do talk to God kelly, and God talks to me as well.  I have my faith AND my evidence.  But I understand what you are saying.  There are people though, that may have blind faith.  I think one young lady said that in this very blog.  I however, asked Him to make Himself real, and known to me.  I asked, and He answered.

    He always answers a true heart.  It is just that so many hurts have happened, so many dissappointments, that sometimes, others need help finding Him.  It isn't that they are any less valuable or more valuable than anyone else, it is just that we have been so indoctrinated, by false doctrine really, that we need to open up our hearts, open up our awareness and first, stop denying those little glimpses, those glimmers that catch our attention and then, if ultimately, if we don't pursue them, they seem to dissappear from our awareness, like they never existed. 

    That is how they first saw the electrons you know.  They only caught glimpses out of the corner of their eye.  Most people would have shrugged it off...and maybe some scientists had...but then they started talking amongst themselves.  They realized that they had all had those experiences, and they kept looking, until they learned more and more.

    Jesus knew that we needed to see, hear and know more than just what others told us.  He came and lived and died and lived again.  There are many secular historical accounts of this too.  You too were created for great things kelly.  I promise.

    How do you mean "atavistic" in relation to believing in God, or faith in God?

    truthsayer  

  • THEANSWERMAN said on Apr 25, 2007....
    I found this topic very, very interesting. I think it told me a lot about what kind of person you are and several other people such as "silverwhisper" and others that made comments. I didnt run across things that I disagree with or would argue about. Just some very interesting points of view and opinions. I think I share some of those same opinions  If it wasnt so late I would write about some of my thoughts, opinions and experiences tonight. I think some of you would find them interesting as I found yours.
  • truthsayer said on Apr 25, 2007....

    Please do that sometime TAM.  I hope you will.  I won't be around her for a few days.  I have a town hall meeting with Shell Oil and others in the energy industry tonight, then another conference on Th and Fr.  But please, comment while I am gone, and I will surely read your comments when I return. 

    God speed,

    truthsayer

  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 16, 2007....
    Kelly, you strike me as a matter-of-fact, bitter person in regards to faith in anything. Truth is, it was pain, what other people told you, or emotional pain they inflicted upon you, that shaped your skepticism about the existence of God. At some point you had to take the same "blind faith" that God is manmade, that religious people have about the evidence of their own god. It goes both ways. We either have blind faith God does exist, or blind faith that He doesn't exist. Besides, if God does exist, He's invisible, and that would make us ALL blind on some level!

    The God debris theory is interesting, except that Jesus was God in human form, and DID experience death. That He was resurrected is testament to God's love for us. He gave us salvation through Jesus. He also gave us free will, however, a gift which many of us use to disprove that He exists, and in some cases insist that all who follow a god are delusional. Talk about biting the hand that feeds.

    The Muslim god, Allah, apparently regards warriors highly. Muslim extremists have taken a false teaching and come to the conclusion that a martyr is someone who kills themselves and others in the process. Truthfully, a martyr is called that because they are killed by others for believing the one TRUTH out there, not because they blew themselves up.

    The Bible speaks clearly about the spiritual world we don't see. God and His angels are benevolent and good, Satan and his demons are fallen angels who wanted glory for themselves. It is entirely possible that every other god other than the Christian God is a fallen angel that is seeking to pull people away from the truth of the true God.

    If that sounds so "out there" and far fetched, then why do we spend millions of dollars making and watching movies, read books, or watch TV, of stories just as fantastical? Because the stories reach us on a level that is deeper than what can be tested in a lab. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man, Harry Potter...all amongst the top grossing movies/movie franchises ever. All of them contain elements NOT of this world.  But what did they all have in common? Themes of heroism, defined as good, against a plainly seen evil. We spend so much money consuming stories like this. Would it be so crazy if the Bible were actually true? That the type of heroism we expect of Superman, Luke Skywalker,  Gandalf, and the like is inspired by real stories of truth?

    Titanic is the highest grossing movie of all time, for now. That contained the epic story of the ship's sinking, but what brought people in the theatres was the love story. Is struck a chord of an epic event with a tale of human love and struggle.  ALL OF  THESE MOVIES REQUIRE A SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF to enjoy. If we don't have blind faith in anything, we might as well eliminate all of the entertainment industry. Few people believe what they see in those movies, but most of them WANT to know of a superpower, magic, or Force that can guide them and make them more than ordinary. The Bible offers God's power to those that follow Him...so it takes a great deal of blind faith to rule that out and file it as another fairy tale, work of fiction, or summer blockbuster.

    For the sake of argument, atheists seem to deny the need for human connection and emotion..for relationships, in favor of what can be proven or at least studied in scientific terms. What a sterile view of the world. You can't really study the concept of falling in love, nor can you predict healthy human relationships. Chances are, observing a couple or a group of friends can glean much, but if there is no soul or spirit component to our lives, that contains our emotions and feelings, then all our human relationships are built around what the other person can do for us. And that's bordering on manipulation. Think about that for a second. If we are only living by "head knowledge", then we will simply jockey for position in debating, forming friendships, and experiencing love. We'd compete with each other to survive well. That reminds me of the animal kingdom, and it's sad to think that with all our wisdom as humans, some of us could explain our existence on the same principle as lions, tigers, and bears.

    The blunt truth is this: life is empty without God. Everything is a distraction from Him if you choose not to believe Him. It is my hope that all Christians would pray for the very people who shoot down their beliefs and chalk it up to "Oh, you just believed what you WANTED to believe," or "you just believe what others TOLD you to believe." They're the ones who need Jesus the most, because they're empty inside. There's bitterness and reluctance to trust or love in a family member, a friend, a spouse, or maybe anyone else. We all just try to make it though life well, and some think we will be ok if we just live as well or as good as we can, never realizing that God was the one who defined what was "good" in the first place.

    I am still trying to reconcile known science and the Bible without compromising either, and while that may seem futile to some, it's often farther than they were willing to go.

    I will say it again: studying rock from space or on Earth, determining the age of the universe, CANNOT be the universal truth of our existence, because it offers no hope to the sick and the dying - or the lonely. If we are here because molecules and matter formed together just right, and the best we have to understand is human science, then we are HOPELESS against things we can't explain fully. Like death. Freak accidents. The timing of natural disasters. Sudden illnesses. Divorce. Broken relationships. "Falling out of love".  All of which appeal to our very spirits...so it's no wonder science of the mind and body will fall short.

    I have never heard of a funeral where someone said, "Well, Joe isn't in a better place because his body and brain are decaying in the casket next to me, but he lived a good life." Just about everyone wants to believe that the dead are in a better place...very few can just accept that they have ceased to exist completely. There's a reason for that: because Heaven is real, and so a "better place" DOES exist. Believing in Jesus and living your life for Him, a good God, is a small price to pay to get to that Heaven.

    Kelly, I didn't consider your position against religion or faith to be bitter because I was attacking you. It was an observation to implore you to look back at your life and see what kind of baggage you carry (and we all do at some point, let's be honest). Was it a bad experience with religious people? Skepticism fed to you by authority figures? Did those authority figures (parents, spouse) let you down, giving you less of a reason to believe in a loving authority (like God)? These are rhetorical questions for you offline from this blog, and they're not easy questions, because they have to do with your soul, your emotions. They're not visible, testable, or as black and white as science can be. But they are very vital to your life and how you live it. Prayers are headed your way, and you can take comfort in that, or regard them as harmless, that's fine either way. But there's a Jesus who loves you greatly, and will continue to seek you until you surrender to Him and open yourself to healing from any brokenness.
  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 16, 2007....
    Truth,

    Hey man, may I ask about your background in media, like radio and print media? I am curious about the contact you have that has many contacts in the literary world themselves. That, and I wanted to get to know you better. Thanks!
  • truthsayer said on Jul 23, 2007....

    Hmmm.  Well, I had two radio shows.  One fell into my lap from the Hands of God.  The second was my fleshly attempt of conforming God's plans to my own ; )

    The first was a blast.  It was a four hour magazine show.  My co-host was a very carnal guy, and I was able to make fun of him or, to have fun with him ; ) without him even knowing, most of the time!  He called me "avant garde" (sp).  But, all of the so called, weird or fringy topics I researched, have now come to pass.  Like all the national parks land we gave away to the United Nations, has all been reclaimed by this president.  It was one of the first things he did. 

    There were other topics that I didn't plan, but that were very important to the folks in the area.  It seems there was a big ufo crash on a ranch nearby, and we got a lot of calls about that...no matter what the topic was, it seemed.  I saw that you mentioned the nephilim, so I decided it was safe enough to mention it to you : )

    My professional print media experience came from marketing, advertising etc...in various nonprofit agencies.  That and I wrote for Cox Online newspapers.  I have published articles and essays, etc.  I think I told you that I am working on writing a book, but I am quite prayerful about the direction of that book.  I have written many things, since I have been writing for most of my adult life...but I really don't want to be "known" for all of them, you know? ; )  I have a pretty bawdy sense of humor that I really have to keep an eye on : )

    I have done a lot of public speaking, and teaching.  I worked in the communication department while I was at university.  I often think of going back.  I liked academia.  I do some communication consulting.  I am a certified mediator and have some other certifications and such.

    My only real contacts in the literary world are from our former church family.  They have a publishing company, but as I said, they really don't publish much anymore.  I keep seeing more and more of their regular authors going to be published elsewhere.  I have thought about writing some childrens books for them though.  My children say I make up amazing stories, and there really aren't many good, virtuous children's books anymore.  I like good old fashioned values.  You know?

    We had a publishing company of our own, shortly after we were married.  I wrote for the paper, and did most of the editing for our writers too.  It had previously had some serious new age influences in the paper and in the community...they weren't too happy with the changes we made!  So, we had to reinvent the wheel in advertising.

    We have thought about reviving it though, recently.  I just don't know right now.  It would require our selling our nanotechnology business...and there are some other issues right now.

    Did that answer your questions?  I would probably do the radio show, not like the one with the more popular station, that I 'arranged', but one like the one God set up.  It was really fun, and it was a back door ministry too.  I got to witness to a lot of people that otherwise I might never have met.

    I won't be on much longer today.  If you are on here, I am really sorry it took me a week to get back to you.

    God speed,

    truthsayer

  • lidstrom82 said on Jul 24, 2007....
    Thanks for the info, truth! In your time at communicating with others, regardless of the medium, what did you find reached people most in matters of beliefs?
  • kelly said on Jul 26, 2007....
    "For the sake of argument, atheists seem to deny the need for human connection and emotion..for relationships, in favor of what can be proven or at least studied in scientific terms. What a sterile view of the world."

    Not as sterile as your view of atheists.  All the atheists I know are full of life and generous and loving people.

    I hope to help you understand that life is possible--even desirable--without a god.  It will be a lot of work, but I think you're worth it.  :-)
  • truthsayer said on Jul 26, 2007....

    See why you gotta love these guys? ; )  You can't shake my faith man, but I sure appreciate the good thoughts : )

    See what progress we have made over the last however many months?  You guys used to just hate us Christians : )  Now we are sharing humor...and good natured humor at that. 

    I have known some pretty depressed athiests though.  I am related to a few.  We could exchange stories sometime.  My oldest brother was in seminary.  He even pastored a small church and was really good at his job.  When it came time to forgive our father though, and to believe in healing or restoration; his doubts and his anger overpowered him.  He also had problems with perversion.  I don't know which was worse for him.  But in the end, he dropped out and chose athiesm instead.  He became much like the predator that had acosted him.

    Now, he is dying of prostate cancer that has mestasticized (sp).  I am praying for him of course.  But having believed once, and turned from it...well, I can only hope, for his sake, that he never really believed at all...

    He studied psychology and admitted that he did it primarily just to figure himself out, and fix himself, because he never trusted anyone else to do it.  So, maybe that's what he did with religion...maybe he just looked at it as a school of thought, that might help him figure out himself. 

    See kelly, I know my brother.  He was my favorite big brother.  I know the things that happened to him as a boy...not all of them, but I know quite a bit.  I watched his character devolve when he left what little faith he had, into what he is today.  Granted, his case is extreme.   

    You would probably like him though.  You would probably like my other brother too.  They seem friendly enough...gregarious even.  They might even seem generous and loving.  But if you ask them who they live for, they will each say themselves...my oldest brother might include his wife in his life/death plans...but not if you ask him the real bottom line. 

    Neither of them understand the patience and the deep love I have for others.  They think I am crazy and that I am too nice, too kind, and thus, I must be deluded by my beliefs.  They are both athiests...well, the younger one says that he is agnostic...he has a bumper sticker that says "Proud to be a pagan." 

    He says he believes in something, but he doesn't know what.  He says the catholic church is his sworn enemy.  He believes that Christianity is the biggest hoax ever played on mankind.  He doesn't believe in Jehovah/Yahweh/Yahuweh and he doesn't believe in Jesus Christ.  He too has some serious issues.  Unforgiveness and a fascination with perversion. 

    We all have extremely high IQ's in our family.  Except for my sister.  Who is driven by her emotions, and admits it.  She thinks that is her intelligence.  I think somebody just did a test about that on a blog...her Emotional Quotient is her claim to fame.  Both my brothers do what she says to do though.  Pretty weird, huh? ; )  Apparently she has blackmailed my dad before...so, maybe she has something on them too : (  Who knows.

    So, kelly, I have been around the block with athiests too.  I like you and SeanR very much.  I don't know AntiMatter or StupidGenius very well yet...but they seem nice too.  The one that calls herself MoonMommy seems sweet as well.  This isn't about whether a person is 'nice' or not...as in cordial, even thoughtful.  It is about something entirely different.  It is this.  If you had to draw a heirarchy of the universe and everything in it...who, or what is at the top?  Even Darwinism has heirarchies of complexity.  So, who or what is at the top of your heirarchy of complexity?  If you say nature, even with a capital "N"...I think that's a cop out. 

    Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your humor.  But as I have told you before, I have had both visions and visitations.  You could never shake my faith, because I have proof.  Not that I needed proof of His existence, but in His great mercy, and, for His own purposes, He has given me wonderful experiences and information that cannot be refuted.  

    He once prevented two witches from moving, when He had given me a message for them.  He held them in their place until they heard, and had to say that they understood all that He had said to them, through me.  That's power.  I couldn't move either, by the way.  The annointing was so strong upon me, that it actually bent my body.  It was a very important message. 

    When they admitted that they heard and understood, their feet came off the ground like a magnet had just released them!  He arranged one more meeting with them several months later, in a WalMart.  My daughter and I were talking about something leather that had a stain on it, and that I wasn't sure what to use to remove it...we were in the laundry section. 

    Someone behind me (who couldn't see my face) started offering me advise on a cleanser she said I may not know about...she said, "sorry for eaves dropping, but I have a suggestion...something that is a vey powerful cleanser, maybe the most powerful cleanser...but BLOOD is a POWERFUL CLEANSER, you might try that..." 

    I slowly turned around and said in that space that only the Holy Spirit can create, where everything else just fades out and the two people are the only thing that matters...and I said, "Why yes it is!  BLOOD IS THE MOST POWERFUL CLEANSER.  You are most certainly right about that!"

    The dark skinned woman turned as white as the other red headed woman!  You could have knocked them both over with a feather when they saw who I was...and delivering yet another message by Divine Appointment, about The Blood!!! 

    So, my friend, I have witnesses all over the place to His Power.  He is strong in me.  He brings His Power everywhere I go.  I could never deny the supernatural, I walk in it everyday.  Anyone that is around me for very long experiences it too. 

    As a matter of fact, you will see a blog soon about just this topic.  Writing this, to you, today, has confirmed it.

    For that, I thank you kelly!

    And nothing can shake my Love either.  Because I know what it's all about.  Gotta love ya!

    Best wishes man.

    truthsayer  

     

  • kelly said on Jul 26, 2007....
    "I have known some pretty depressed athiests though."

    Obviously.  Depression cuts across every boundary.

    "If you had to draw a heirarchy of the universe and everything in it...who, or what is at the top?"

    Nothing is at the top.  Why is that so hard to imagine?  Or is it that people just fear that too much?  People used to think of mankind being at the "top of the food chain" but that was an human-centric illusion.  Life itself is a cycle, or more accurately a web of interaction.  Life does not require that something be "at the top."  The mightiest predator ends up as food for maggots and microbes.

    So, in the end I don't really care about religion or this creation called god too much.  You're obviously free to believe what you want about that and I'm free to revel in science and nature and my understanding that all we have in this world is each other to depend on.  You might try that last thought on sometime.  It's the ultimate in personal responsibility.

    Your post is long and detailed and I apologize for not having the energy this evening to reply more fully, but I am curious about your definition of 'perversion' since it appeared twice.
  • truthsayer said on Jul 29, 2007....

    Yes kelly.  I have known some Christians that struggle with depression too.  But I have seen many delivered and healed of their depression.  I don't know that you can say that about many nonbelievers...being healed and set free.  More of them make their "peace" with it, get on meds that they say help, at least some.  I would like to see them set free and healed as well.  I am not speaking of your typical situational depression...I am talking about people that have battled chronic and sytemic depression for decades or for their whole lives.  My brother has a counter full of meds from the VA, and he is still depressed.  Last I knew, they finally reviewed his file and realized what all they had him on, and made him go off of just about everything.  He was having a heck of a time getting off of them.  He isn't looking for any 'alternatives' to his suffering either, last I knew.

    Whoops...gotta run.  I'll be back.

    More later,

    truthsayer

  • truthsayer said on Jul 29, 2007....

    You said:

    I'm free to revel in science and nature and my understanding that all we have in this world is each other to depend on.  You might try that last thought on sometime.  It's the ultimate in personal responsibility.

    And you might like to check out my posts and comments on Interdependence ; )

    Talk to you later kelly.  Thanks for posting. 

    truthsayer

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