• beyondtheveil said on Apr 05, 2007....

  zayda- I wonder about two things.
   
  First, wouldn't the ability to believe in God spring from having a brain capable of having a belief prior to religion?
   
  Second, since religion has been around for at least several thousand years, wouldn't the present ability have been enhanced naturally through use?
   
  I have trouble seeing how the evidence gathered could point to proof "that our brains are built to believe in God".

• silverwhisper said on Apr 05, 2007....

  interesting. this ties into something you previously blogged about, too.
  
  ed

• Zayda said on Apr 05, 2007....

  yes, silver it does. i'm not sure why i put this as a separate blog entry.

• truthsayer said on Apr 05, 2007....

  Sounds like a discussion of what came first, the chicken or the egg?!  I read the long version and sent it to myself for later reference.  Thanks for the link Zayda.

  It still comes down to design or chance beyondtheveil.  That is the rub for most folks.  If you believe in a "higher power", as many call "it"; it could be (from my experience in 12 step programs, which started out as Bible and faith based, and have "evolved" to accomodate nonbelievers, with the term "higher power") it could be God Almighty; or for Muslims, Allah; or for some, "universal consciousness"; any of billions of Hindu gods; or for Christians and Jews, Yahweh/Jehovah; and the same God for Christians and Jews that recognize Jesus Christ as the Messiah sent by Yahweh/Jehovah.

  Christians and Jews, Muslims and infidels, pagans, heathens, athiests, agnostics and secular humanists, to name a few, have been debating this since the beginning of time.  The only thing that is new is our measurement devices.  So, we have more "evidence" to examine.  For although blessed are they that believe without proof, he has not forgotten those that, like Thomas, feel like they need proof.

  So...beyond, ed, Zayda...what do you feel is most important about this new "evidence"?  I appreciate your input, as I am preparing an article about this as we "speak" ; )

   

• silverwhisper said on Apr 05, 2007....

  truthsayer, i daresay you're already acquainted w/ my thoughts on the matter, as we previously discussed a related story here.
  
  ed

• truthsayer said on Apr 05, 2007....

  Sorry ed, I see a lot of different thoughts there, but I believe early on, you said you were still forming your opinion of the article you mentioned in your blog.  Now Zayda has linked to another article, and I was wondering your thoughts on this particular article.  Or, do you and Zayda happen to reference the exact same articles?  I would have to go back and re-read the article you were referring to in your old blog silver.  Please, if it is the same article as Zayda's, let me know, so I don't have to go back and re-read your article, in your old blog, in order to respond to your comments in here : { 
   
  Zayda, I did see that Dr. Newberg said that the brains of athiests, etc. show the same areas of the brain stimulated as those of "religious" folks.  I read that you are Baptist and your husband is Mormon, right Zayda?  I have an awesome article written by a Mormon physicist on science and faith, if you are ever interested Zayda.
   
  caio,
   
  truth
   
   

• Zayda said on Apr 05, 2007....

  The article Silver linked to is a different article from the NY Times called "Darwin's God". Mine is simply a piece from CNN.com. Unfortunately, because the article Silver linked to is only available in the NY Times archive, you would have to purchase it to read the whole thing now.

• truthsayer said on Apr 05, 2007....

  Thank you again Zayda, for responding.  Let me know about that article.  I may just have to blog about it myself!  ; )

• The_three_F_words said on Apr 05, 2007....

  Now this is thought provoking.............I don't know what to think, yet.  Be interesting to explore more...thanks.Mica

• RollingC said on Apr 05, 2007....

  This is a bit over and above my understanding.  How can a brain be built for believing in God?  Except maybe in the thinking part as that's what it takes to do so. 
  What's the difference between Religion and God? Just the different ways to worship Him? 
  ooops sorry...didn't mean to interrupt..   I'll go back to my corner now.
  

• truthsayer said on Apr 05, 2007....

  Please stay out and play RollingC!  They are talking about the areas of the brain that show activity when the person experiences their faith, whether it is faith in evolution, transcendental meditation or prayer and meditation to the one true God.  I prefer to live my faith.  How about you?  ; )

• hotaka said on Apr 06, 2007....

  I read something about that before and someone (maybe silverW) blogged about it a few weeks ago. It may be an evolutionary advantage for us to believe in a higher power. What I read suggested that the promise of a heaven and a benevolent god and the promise of a hell and a vengeful god might have made it easier for early leaders to keep their people under control and behaving properly. One advantage humans have is the ability to form complex societies governed by laws. If people always let their natural animal instincts take over it would be hard to maintain such a complex society. Yet simply following the rules laid down by the present leader doesn't always work as leaders are often overthrown or assasinated. A higher power can't be defeated and as such people living in fear of the fate of their souls try harder to curb their instincts and instead think of the greater good.
  
  If we have indeed evolved in such a way then there must be a part of the brain to acomodate that.
  
  I also read that prayer is good for you because it gives you the chance to rest your mind and focus your energy to the universe. Having time to relax and concentrate your thoughts on Creation and the powers that are behind it is a healthy activity. Prayer is a form of meditation.
  

• buck_rooster said on Apr 06, 2007....

  What hotaka is saying makes me recall words that are attributed to Benjamin Franklin, around the time when he was helping frame our Constitution.  He said something to the effect of Religion is for the ignorant masses, and is useful as a tool to govern them.  Personally, it is easy for anyone who believes that we were made in God's image to believe that our brains are predisposed to experiencing faith.  Philosophically, classical realists such as myself understand that God and religion are not synonymous.  Religion is merely a set of rules and rituals, whereas God is a collection of all of the natural universe.  As a part of that natural universe, and due to how advanced our brains are (neurons that number in the billions rather than worms whose brains have 29 neurons or bees who have 75,000 neurons,) we have an ability to imagine and conjure an image or concept of a personal God who is capable of communicating with us and we with Him or her or it or whatever you will.  That, in my opinion, is not a sign that a person is weak or an imbicile.  It makes logical sense to believe in God, because trying to concieve of the universe in an agnostic way does harm to the thought process, which can affect character and/or personality, which can affect ones standing in the community at large, which can affect things like employment or pay or whether anyone is willing to befriend you or trust you.  Whew!  What got me started!!!

• curmudgeon said on Apr 06, 2007....

  Whether or not we are "hard wired" I don't know.
   
  What I understand from this is that religious practice - in all of it's forms - is very powerful in stimulating many different parts of the brain.
   
  Religious practice - which largely combine forms of chanting (vocal), meditiation, reading, employing reason, human contact, corporate endeavor, and provide a safe and welcoming environment in which a sense of identity may be forstered - all of these things stimulate a wider array of brain functions than we normally experience. No wonder it's so powerful and that so many are attracted to it.
   
  That we believe in God, I think, stems from our brain's natural tendency to make associations. We are concious, therefore we wish to see the Universe - all that surrounds us - as concious. We wish to see ourselves not as separate entities, but as part of a greater whole. Our brains are, in a sense, "hard wired" to want to make sense of it all.
   
  Believing in God(s) and practicing a religion based around that God(s) seems a naturally powerful combination.

• silverwhisper said on Apr 06, 2007....

  truthsayer: this article and the one i posted a while back are largely articulating the same ideas, so no, my thoughts really haven't changed. what i was saying in the comments and in the process of that discussion is that while i think it may be possible there's a predisposition genetically to accept the supernatural, this is not at all the same thing as saying we're predisposed to believe in god.
  
  ed

• RollingC said on Apr 06, 2007....

  All that is good when it comes down to explaining the positive stimulation that practicing your religion and worshiping God does to the brain but there are some of us that have personally experienced instances of unexplainable circumstances in our lives and when those instances are studied or thought about it becomes apparent that there is an intelligence behind it that is simply mind-boggling as there's no way we as humans can understand them.
  My two cents worth... : >)
  Peace
  Rc
  

• RollingC said on Apr 06, 2007....

  Oh and I forgot...a couple of years ago I saw a documentary on the pbs channel about the mind. They had this volunteer who was epileptic and they had used him as a guinea pig so to speak. A portion of his skull was surgically removed and his brain was wired into several complicated looking machines  so from the hospital room that he was in (special room) the back of his head looked like the inside of a computer as it was hooked up with several of those flat wires into the different machines.
  When one button was pressed, the subject would wink. Another button pressed and the subject would smile or frown and so forth.  They were looking for the area of the brain that caused the epilepsy and by accident they found an area that when the button was pressed the subject would be seeing himself being inside of himself looking out.  The documentary ended with the suggestion that they had found an area of the brain that was a " receiver " so to speak.... but who was the sender?
  
  Very thought provoking that documentary.
  
  Peace
  Rc 

• Bronx said on Apr 06, 2007....

  Zayda: 'hard-wired', IMHO, implies that our Maker put His 'stamp' on us all, like a toy manufacturer making sure that his or her toy works best only if it uses 'Duracell' batteries!
  
  I wonder who's funding Dr. Newberg?
  

• hotaka said on Apr 06, 2007....

  RollingC, I thought you were going to say when the pushed a button he suddenly started to pray.

• RollingC said on Apr 06, 2007....

  LOL.....  That would've been nice........ an automatic prayer reflex....
  
  Actually I know plenty people that have an automatic prayer reflex whenever they get into trouble...   : >)
  

• hotaka said on Apr 07, 2007....

  RollingC, that's very clever and so true. It's funny how when trouble brews a number of people suddenly realize they have a belief in God. Too bad when things go wrong they often blame Him.

• LilStinker said on Apr 07, 2007....

  hard-wired for faith? Interesting idea... I always thought of faith as more of a social concept. Beliefs are passed down and communicated through people to other people. Don't all people have some sort of belief, even if it's a non-belief? Is it suppose to be a surprise that our brains can handle it and react to it? Sounds like this Newburg fellow just managed to create a new job for himself... neurotheology? Oh, and thanks for the "welcome" Zayda :)

• shiningstar said on Apr 10, 2007....

  If any of you have seen the movie "What The Bleep"  you can understand more of the world of possibilities that the mind/thought can create.  Since humans only use 10% of their brain the learning lies before us of what we are capable if we chose to use more of it.  Closed thinking(religion)  where beliefs are more set in stone as a belief and a practice that has been done for centuries naturally provides comfort to the people.  As Jesus said that which is familar will be returned to because people are used to it.  But when they choose to stretch the mind,  making known the unknown,  by letting go of old beliefs and thoughts we activate more of the brain. It is well known that animals grow new body parts and the new RetroStem Therapy is proving that people have the same abilities but we have not stretched enough to use them rather staying in the old familar. We feel accepted if we go along with everyone in our world and that is a comfort zone that most feel unable to walk away from

• kelly said on Apr 12, 2007....

  "Since humans only use 10% of their brain the learning lies before us of what we are capable if we chose to use more of it."
  
  
  Actually, it's closer to 100%.

• shiningstar said on Apr 13, 2007....

  I do not understand your post.  100% of what?  If any of you have studied behavior patterns in people then you get it that mind has many more capabilities than the masses have ever been taught. I remember a book "When Rabbit Howls".  Oprah had the lady who wrote it on her show many times.  She had over 100 personalities and wrote about the unwinding of them along with her dr.  Like in hypnosis people can become anything once a part of their brain is activated without the old patterns of belief holding them into just one scenario.If anyone can change their perspective or are forced to change due to some event or experience another perspective of self is born.  This self can do different things because in some way it has changed it's own mind on how to be.

• buck_rooster said on Apr 13, 2007....

  "This self can do different things because in some way it has changed it's own mind on how to be."  How right you are, shiningstar!  The individual is capable of changing the way it perceives the world around it.  Things can be approached with any number of perspectives, all from the same mind.  A book published in 1990, which hit number one on the New York Times Bestseller List, "The Seat of the Soul," by Gary Zukov, speaks about how we as a species are evolving into something more than a five-sensory animal.  Using the term multi-sensory, Zukov explains that there is more to life than the physical, which many of us already believe, and that we are becoming, more and more, supernatural beings.  Some people understand this more than others, and have experiences that prove what Zukov is saying.  He considers people like Albert Einstein as more than simply smarter than average.  He says "They were mystics.  That is my word.  They would not use such language, but they knew it."  Zukov goes on to explain how we are evolving, and that this new way of being doesn't have a vocabulary of expression yet, but it goes beyond "religiousity or spirituality."
   
  In a related story, a report out of the University of Illinois, Chicago this week says a survey of doctors finds that a large majority of them claim that their patients' healing was not brought about by anything the doctor did.  People are causing their own healing, and doctors are baffled by what is going on or how it is happening!  Our minds have the capacity to do much more than we currently are capable of, and we are evolving.

• kelly said on Apr 13, 2007....

  shiningstar:  Oprah?  Please.  People are so ready to believe any tabloid stories about amazing things yet balk completely at looking into what psychologists, psychiatrists, brain researchers and scientists have been studying for years.
  
  
  Why would only 10% of our brain be used?  Where did that myth get started? Why did the rest of it evolve if we only needed 10%?  The brain is complex and can't just be partitioned out the way you think it is.  The brain has evolved along with it's mechanisms because we need all that for various things.  Nature doesn't expend that much energy to produce something that has no utility.

• silverwhisper said on Apr 13, 2007....

  also, i should point out that recent research demonstrates that we may use a small portion at one time, but we use all of it at various times.
  
  ed

• shiningstar said on Apr 13, 2007....

  You are on target buck rooster.  Scientists have proven that we only use 10% percent of our brain and we have not yet opened up enough to even be capable of the things that animals naturally know and do.  The average doctor will tell anyone they do not have a clue how the body heals it's self but there are other studies that offer opportunitites to not only understand but build on new knowledge.  Those who do not want to know more about this will never know because they deny the knowledge and spend their moments picking it apart instead of stretching their own brains enough to at least get a little curiosity agoing to challenge what they know. I'd rather have a mind opened in wonder than a mind closed by belief.  It is that closed minded belief that closes the door to the greater things.

• kelly said on Apr 14, 2007....

  I take it all back.  Some people do only use 10% of their brains.

• buck_rooster said on Apr 14, 2007....

  There are those who choose to focus their attention only on what the media provides, and they have a place in our discussions.  After all, without diversity, creativity dies.  Still, I was hoping to avoid the Rush Limbaugh mentality here on SoulCast.  There exists in any library more than a periodicals section.  The trouble is: reading the research done through the ages is tedious and pondering what you've read takes effort.  Coming to hasty conclusions takes less time and effort.  If using 100% of the brain results in firing sarcasm at those who try to explore humous existance, then I'd rather use ten percent.  Where is the love, kelly?  And what prompted you to reappear after nearly a year's hiatus?  Is what Lee Iacoca has to say about government really so important?

• truthsayer said on Apr 14, 2007....

  Here, here buck_rooster.  Like in Wombat's post about the subconscious.  She is just spreading her wings a bit.   Somebody was really rude to here in there too...I think it might have been kelly.  In fact, I think that is where kelly got the 10% thing.  Whoever it was was mean to three_f_words, too.

  I went ahead and posted a link to the philosophical and scientific research that mentioned the technique she had linked to, just in case kelly or anyone else that had "corrected her" for her link and source wanted to read through the "stacks". 

  I hate mean spirited people.  There are several on soulcast.

  my 2 cents,

  truth

• buck_rooster said on Apr 14, 2007....

  truth, Please don't hate.  As I said, creativity dies without diversity.  Challengers keep us on our toes, and as such have a place.  I only wish the challenges could be done constructively.  Enough destruction exists of its own accord.  Let us not contribute by hating.
   
  Love,
  In Christ or otherwise,
  buck

• truthsayer said on Apr 14, 2007....

  Sorry buck, I had first typed hate mean spirits, and then I thought I might be providing a diversion that was unnecessary.  I stand corrected.  I have stated my love for kelly, and many others that have been on the attack before.  It is like the pull between our two party system...like it or not, it is that tension that helps us to "work things out".

  I don't like it when people with mean spirits attack people though...people that may make a mistake, or may not yet understand something.  I was raised on sarcasm, and I was really "good" at it, if that were possible.  I choose not to do it. 

  I don't hate.  You should know the people I love because my Lord says to ; )  It is my good pleasure to do so.  What good would it do me, to only love those that love me?

  Thanks for looking out for me again.

  truthsayer

• truthsayer said on Apr 14, 2007....

  Open systems are alive, yes.  How you define your system and your environment, and how you interact with your environment, is crucial.  Where we experience "God", how we experience God, who He is to us, etc.  Is He part of your system?  Or the environment that you continually interact with?  New information, new ideas, new people:  Open systems.  What is your "input?"

  food for thought,

  truth

• kelly said on Apr 14, 2007....

  Oh, brother.  I was merely trying to point out that the 10% myth is just that.  If that's mean spirited well, then....  Whatever.  I thought you guys counted yourselves as critical thinkers.

• shiningstar said on Apr 15, 2007....

  Perhaps I can better restate my previous post on the brain.  Yes,  of course,  doctors can artifically stimulate parts of the body by stimulating the brain.  It is a most exciting discovery for humanity.  There are animals that regrow limb. There are animals that can change their sex or be both sexes at once.  There are many things that exist in the Kingdom of God but the trick is can we use our consciousness to obtain these same results withour using an exterior person to masterbate our minds for us and acheive the benefits that the mind/brain has to offer?  Surely an animal with it's tiny little brain does not have the power that a human has so one has to suspect that the same  Intelligence that provided it for the least has endowed it in the greater.  All of the Masters have performed what the world calls "miracles".  But what if this is just a way of life that we have not yet allowed ourselves to awaken to? Jesus told the people that they would do greater things than he did.  Is that not a wake up call that should spark our interest enough to be curious enough to explore the power within each self?

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