• botoni said on Apr 01, 2007....

  A very interesting discussion should ensue from this post. I ve some thoughts I ll share with you later. At the moment I m tagging so I can come back. Wish your aunt a speedy recovery....she s a brave lady! Prayers for her.

• dailyachesandpains said on Apr 01, 2007....

  my reminder to come back to this

• waterstar said on Apr 01, 2007....

  the human spirit is an amazing thing - your aunt sounds like she has alot of spirit.  Good for her for demanding her rights as a patient - I don't have alot of faith in the western approach towards health care - which has a tendency to see the patient as a body with little or no regard to the soul that resides inside - I pray that she has a successful surgery

• mobil said on Apr 01, 2007....

  Hey SL, I think you'd have to take the docs on a case by case basis. I do

  know that old people need an advocate when in a nursing home. They

  will sometimes be taken advantage off. A hell of allot about care has to

  do with money as does everything else in life. Otherwise, I don't have all

  the answers.......hell, I think I don't have even have most of the questions

  Thanks SL....

• beyondtheveil said on Apr 02, 2007....

  secret- I think they should have given her the option of the valve replacement when they discovered she needed it. It seems obvious to me nothing was going to get better. At least she could have made the call a few years ago when she was stronger.
   
  The decision she has made is the only hope she has now. I really don't know what I would do at 92. But I like her attitude- live well or see if its her time.

• louthomas said on Apr 02, 2007....

  SL, I suffer from the same thing as your Aunt: CHF (Congestive Heart Failure).  FINALLY, the medical moguls have managed to arranged my meds so that I can pretty well function, although mountain climbing and beach volleyball are out (not that they were ever in my life to begin with).
  
  In these days of instant litigation, I don't blame a doctor for being wary of performing an operation that, more likely than not, will kill the patient.  Doctors are easy game for the tort masters and, while your aunt might let the surgeon off the hook, this is not to say her family would agree with her.
  
  So, yeah, as you get older, the options presented you narrow, mainly because of the legal liability.
  
  But Fight On, Auntie!
  
  Please give her my best wishes.
  

• secretlife said on Apr 02, 2007....

  mobil:  one of the biggest roles i play with my father's sister in the nursing home is
  regarding her medical treatment.  it is an intesting position to be in because we aren't geographically close enough to be there all the time, so lots of decisions on day to day care get made for her by strangers.  We have discussed with her and ensured that the DNR papers are in order.  She's lucky at this point because she still has mobility.  i don't like thinking about a time where that changes.
   
  ilovetocomplain: i agree that everyone needs an advocate. 
  i'm sure that her age was the factor in the choices she's been presented with in terms of her care.  i think though that instead of making the choice for you, all the choices should be given to you by the doctors.....it doesn't seem right not to at least have the choices.
   
  beyond:  i don't know if she'd have pushed for the valve replacement a few years ago.  i do know that she didn't push to have it because she was still able to do most of the things she liked to do.  i don't think she foresaw this time now where she'd be forced to bed and back and forth to the hospital all the time.
   
  it must be very hard to hear the words, 'there's nothing left to be done for you'. i'm sure it feels like you are being written off while still here....
   
  she definitely has the attitude now that this is her decision to make.  
   
  lou:  i understand that doctors are afraid of being sued.  i don't agree that this is a good reason to take choices away from patients though.  my aunt has only one son left.  and 4 grandchildren.  the surgeon spoke to her in front of her son.  everyone understands the risks.  and everyone understands her wishes.  i'm sure the paperwork she's required to sign will absolve him and the hospital of  responsibilitiy. 
   
  i also understand doctors wanting to operate on the ones who have the best chance of survival.  i don't know if this is the right thing either.  it makes me wonder how many aren't even given the option....
   
  the crux of my thoughts last night was the limited options presented to people over a certain age.  and the fact that others are making decisions for you without you being aware simply because of your age.  who decides what is too old?  is it 90? 80? 70? 60?  i don't want someone making that call for me i don't think....
   
  thank you ALL for your well-wishes.

• mommyof2 said on Apr 02, 2007....

  I have worked in nursing homes and seen alot of abuse, even when told to the supervisor nothing is done...I would rather die outside then live in a nursing home and that will be in my will!! I have seen faces slapped, money stolen, diapers never changed, sores never treated, and one poor mans penis sliced in 2 by a catheter!!!!!!

• blastfromthepast said on Apr 02, 2007....

  Secret, I feel for you, your Aunt, and your family.  My Mother-In-Law will be 85 this year, and is beginning to feel her age.  She has been told the same thing by her doctors.  She has back problems now that inhibit her mobility a great deal.
   
  I don't know where you live, but in Canada the story is the same.  It angers me a lot, and frightens me even more because it won't be long before I move from 'middle age' to 'old age'.  What's to say the medical profession decides that we aren't worth the trouble then?  All I can say is that they don't want to have hoards of old people with nothing left to lose taking action of some kind or other.  After all, we are the same generation that raised Hell back in the 60's and 70's, and I for one will not go down without a fight.
   
  Prayers for you and yours.
   
   

• mobil said on Apr 02, 2007....

  Hey SL, you know one of the crazy things about socialized medicine, at
  least what I've heard about it in Canada. Is that the older you get, the less
  options it affords you.
   
  Many elderly Canadians are coming here to have certain surgeries they
  won't do there because of age or waiting lists. The younger get first crack
  at some of the procedures. While that doesn't seem quite fair, it's boiled
  down to the young will most likely last longer and therefore the expense and
  effort are spent on them first.
   
  That information hasn't a lot to do with your aunt's situation, but I wanted to
  put it out there and I wanted an excuse to say hello to you this morning.
  Cold and snowing here, good mornin darlin........haha.......thanks SL

• secretlife said on Apr 02, 2007....

  mommy:  i pray that neither of us have to end our days in a nursing home.

  blast: on some level that's how i feel....that doctors/insurance companies and lawyers are deciding who is 'worth it' and who is not.  i find that deeply troubling.

  as more and more of the population becomes elderly, i'm sure we're going to see some intesting arguments arise.

  mobil: good morning to you. any excuse is fine with me.   

  i'm sorry it's snowing again there. 

  i have a canadian friend in his late 60's who often complains about the long waiting lists for appointments with specialists.  i wasn't aware that age was a factor there.  i figured the long waits were the result of not enough doctors/specialists to go around.  i know canada has a serious doctor shortage.

   

   

   

   

• dailyachesandpains said on Apr 02, 2007....

  Wow, Secret, I hope she gets through it. 
   
  In my opinion, I don't think the elderly are treated the same as people in their prime. 
   
  My Grandmother went home from the hospital after having cancer in her colon removed at 85 years of age.  She was FINE when she left.  So fine that she went out the week after she got home, to the senior center to play bingo...like she always did.  Well, the visiting nurse came while she was out and was livid that she wasn't home.  My Grandmother was still 'all there' much more than any of us are and expected her the day before, but she didn't show. 
   
  The following Friday, after a phone call from the VNA, my Grandmother stayed home to wait for the nurse to come.  She didn't have a clue as to why a nurse was even coming, none of us did.  The nurse screamed (my grandmother's exact term) at her to NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE, to LAY IN BED ALL DAY!  What did my Grandmother do...out of sheer terror, she listened to her. 
   
  Guess what happened...she suffered a stroke!  Not once, not twice, but three times!  The last time was the last time. 
   
  She ended up being transferred from the hospital to some "wait to die" hospital.  She just laid there and waited to die.  She finally started to speak again.  She ratted out all the staff for not swabbing her mouth, not moving her, not brushing her hair and a laundry list of other things.  We were pissed.  When we told them she started talking the nurse said "Just like that, huh?  She just decided to all of a sudden talk out of thin air?"  My Mother was LIVID as we all were.  There wasn't ONE doctor in this stupid hospital for more than an hour a day!!! 
   
  She stopped talking after a while, again.  She didn't speak for a month until I came in with my wedding dress on.  I made a special trip to show her as this would have been the first wedding she would attend for one of her grand-children.  We (Sister and I)brought her a centerpiece in.  The florist was kind enough to change her corsage to an arrangement for me to bring her.  She had a tear roll down her face and said the last words that I would hear from her
   
  "You look so beautiful, you're my little girl you know?  I love you"
   
  She passed away while my Husband and I were in Hawaii on our honeymoon. 
   
  Sorry I ended up telling the entire story.  I just miss her so much and feel like she was treated like dirt.  The VNA suspended the nurse without pay and was fired and stripped of her license.  We didn't do that, my Aunt had all the power in that happening.  The "hospital" where she waited to die is still up and running with one doctor on one hour a day and comes when he can fit it in his/her schedule!!!!
   
  Daily

• uniquely-ironic said on Apr 02, 2007....

  I've worked in the medical field as a non medical person, so I've seen both sides of the situation.  I also have a 98 y.o. grandmother who I believe still lives at home with assistance.
   
  I doubt surgery 2 years ago would have impacted this outcome a lot.  I think surgery 15 years ago would have.  My guess is that past a certain age all doctors hesitate to do major surgery.  There is no "normal" at their age to benchmark against.
   
  I think your aunt has the right idea about risking surgery to improve her quality of life.  I think many of us would risk a fast death rather than waste away inch by inch.

• mobil said on Apr 02, 2007....

  Hey SL, Yes, I am sure age is a factor there, at least for many things it is.

  Don't be sorry, we need this snow bad...............suaptt.....haha

• zombied420 said on Apr 02, 2007....

  I hope I make it to that age, damn. I doubt it.
   
  I am glad for your aunt, she has a fighter spirit. She sounds like she doesn't take anything lying down.
   
  Good for her.
   
  Sending her good vibes. I hope everything goes ok.

• botoni said on Apr 02, 2007....

  Secret......My apology for taking so long to get back to your post. I m certainly with your aunt in believing that the risk is worth it. No long dragged out death for me either if I ve got choices.
  Over the past few years I ve had some direct connection with nursing homes and assisted living situations. Some of the things I ve seen are appalling yet I ve also seen some situations that were highly appropriate. I wonder sometimes if there is a correlation between the size of the operation running the facilities. It seems to me that some of the smaller privately run homes are superior.
  In a general sense beyond just health care and medicine....might I speculate the treatment of the elderly is somewhat attutinally off course. I m on the cusp of elderly myself and I find that there is definately a difference in how I am treated. Soemtimes to the point where I feel insignificant in what I say and do only because of my age at all levels. That includes in business, in society, in health care....in almost every area that touches my life.
  Speaking for my observations as a Canadian there are both good and bad elements to socialized health care. We are covered for tremendous amounts of things that would not otherwise be covered. We do, in most provinces, pay a health care premium (or insurance) although it is minimal. There are massive shortages of not only doctors but all medical professionals here....another truth. Mobil is correct there are many Canadians going to other countries to receive procedures more rapidly than they are able to receive them here. There is some truth to the fact that those who are able to afford to travel and pay for their medical treatment are able to receive it. Those who are not that well off have no access to such alternatives.

• secretlife said on Apr 02, 2007....

  daily:  part of the issue with the elderly is they need the after-care...sometimes for a fairly good chunk of time.  with families less able to provide it, that means re-hab or nursing homes associated with hospitals.

  the care there isn't always wonderful.  and yes, the doctors aren't around much...so nurses and admin type people basically run the show and have alot of the power.

  stories like your grandmother's make me sad.  it's not the way i like to think of our parents and grandparents ending life.

  i'm sure seeing you in your wedding dress armed with flowers made her day.  i had an aunt who had a stroke and they brought her back after she was gone too long.  she was brain dead and lived 2 years in a nursing home.  before she died one of her daughter's married, and she too spent the morning with her mom....at the nursing home.  very sad when you want them back to how they were and attending your wedding.  i'm sure they too would want that more than we can know.

  i'm sorry your grandma's life ended that way.

   

  unique:  i'm sure 2 years ago would have made little difference.  but i do believe 15 yrs ago might have.  who knows though.  i'm sure as a 77 year old, the doctors were still not ready to offer up that kind of surgery.  and that's what worries me.  if they don't offer it up at 77? when do they stop offering?

  zombie:  she's a 4'10" 89 lb fighter!

  thanks for the good vibes!

   

• CamDaMan20 said on Apr 02, 2007....

  Did it ever occur to any of you that after leading an active life as she has, and knowing life's end is near in any event (whether operation is successful or not) that simply going to sleep and not waking up appears much more comforting that waiting for death to retrieve her?
  
  I for one would be of such a mind set under similar circumstances.
  
  In any event, brave lady, I wish her peace.
  

• secretlife said on Apr 02, 2007....

  botoni: i've seen only 3 nursing homes - all run by or affiliated with large hospitals here.  I've had days where i go inside and think...this isn't so bad.  i have had days where i come home telling my husband and kids 'never put me in one of those places'.

  i remember the olden days bot.  the days where the elders among us were valued.  where their lives were seen as a blessing and where we wanted to be around them and to learn from them.  some cultures still have t his deeply embedded in them...i work with asians who seems to still value their elderly...at least more than we, as a society have come to. 

  nowadays it seems very easy to herd the old and infirmed  into assisted living and nursing homes -- packed away neatly surrounded only by others who are sick and old and to make them feel, like daily's grandma, that they are simply 'waiting to die'.

  i can understand why you feel you are treated like you are almost insignificant -- and that's because for whatever reason, our culture doesn't find value in age.  it's very sad.

   

  cam:  i think that' exactly what she's thinking....that if this is her time, she's ready to go.  and that if it's not and she has a few more years, she'd like to live them at least being able to walk around her house, cook dinner for her son, and visit with her friends.

   

• momsrock said on Apr 02, 2007....

  I don't think the elderly are treated the same and a lot of them do it because they don't stand up to someone like your aunt did.  I would not want to lay in bed waiting for it to happen...not when she has a chance to enjoy another year or two years or how ever long. It has to be more comforting knowing that she is in control and it was her decision and if it is her time to go at least it was on her terms.

• doyoulikeme said on Apr 02, 2007....

  She's a brave lady.  I don't think the elderly are treated the same.  Some doctors will just try thier best to make them comfortable instead of finding a permanant solution.

• secretlife said on Apr 17, 2007....

  She passed away tonight at 8:10.
   
  Rest in peace Aunt Lena.  I know you went straight into heaven...
   

• louthomas said on Apr 18, 2007....

  {{{{Hugs and Love to you, SL}}}}

• anonymous said on Jul 11, 2007....

  GREAT articles and information, MANY THANKS! Criminal activity is depriving rightful heirs of their inheritances. See http://StealanEstate.com for our experiences. We hope you will be willing to comment on it... Be sure to see About Steal an Estate in the upper right hand corner. The site accurately reflects our experience and observations. Many thanks!!!!

• dyingman said on Apr 19, 2008....

  CamDaMan20 may have hit teh nail on teh head.

  
  Did we simply see a very expensive suicide?
  If you die by accident in a high risk procedure, it's okay.
  Death-by-surgery?
  
  Is this really what God has in mind when we are expected not to kill ourselves when life is an insufferable burden?
  
  
  

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