• silverwhisper said on Mar 30, 2007....

  people hate to be made aware of ugly truths, bloc. i think it's really that simple.
  
  ed

• bloc said on Mar 30, 2007....

  Exactly, but I was trying to delve into the topic of "ugly truths". What makes a truth ugly?

• silverwhisper said on Mar 30, 2007....

  that it doesn't allow us to think that we're what we think we are. you could also call it an inconvenient truth, i suppose.
  
  ed

• lioneljay said on Mar 30, 2007....

  Any time that our expectations and assumptions are proved wrong, the natural reaction is not unlke the typical stress reaction. Many people close down, but not before they lash out in anger and disbelief - perhaps hoping to persuade themselves that it's okay to hang onto the old and now mutable truths.

• kruuyai said on Mar 30, 2007....

  All of the above, plus... if people have to believe or acknowledge these awful truths, then they have to feel bad about themselves either for participating, or for not trying to do anything about it.... and most people don't want to be bothered to do anything about it, so it's easier just to deny that it exists and get mad at the guy who puts those nagging thoughts in the back of their mind.

• SeeingRed said on Mar 30, 2007....

  People need to be made aware of the ugly truth. Really? You mean the average person who reads these posts are not aware that torture takes place in war? Or that the US military also engages in the practice of torture to access information as opposed to torture for fun? What angers me bloc when I see Americans jumping on the US for torture and using "moral becon " as a rationale. Is that I cannot help but wonder what the real agenda is. When very little is mentioned of truly hideous forms of torture by America's enemies and more than not out of vindictiveness. As far as torture is concerned we still are on top of the moral becon meter.  So lets not get to carried away with morality for the US while in an immoral setting while other countries do not feel your sting.  SR

• bloc said on Mar 30, 2007....

  "As far as torture is concerned we still are on top of the moral becon meter."
  wrong. Most industrialized nations do not have an official torture policy. We do. We have lost our moral ground.
  
  "Is that I cannot help but wonder what the real agenda is. When very little is mentioned of truly hideous forms of torture by America's enemies"
  
  This is very simple. I want to live up to high standards, and by extension I want my country to live up to high standards. I feel just as appalled at other countries that torture, but in that case it is not being done in my name with my tax dollars. Is it too hard to understand that life is about personal responsibility and by extension the actions of ones own country are more relevant than those with which I have no allegiance?
  

• mobil said on Mar 30, 2007....

  I've argued about torture with you bloc. It's not that your posts make me
  angry, but more your inability to grasp reality or common sense. The round
  and round we go fashion of beating a detail to death without examining
  necessity or history. Just clutching the Geneva Convention for all it's worth.
   
  I will not argue with a fence post, it's fruitless and if one stands there
  arguing long enough, it's exhausting.
   
  When a man makes the statement that America is not the great moral beacon
  of the world. I can think only two things about him, he is either a fool, or he's
  not from here and knows nothing about us.
   
  I suppose you fit into the first category, I suppose this because I assume
  you are from here. I could be wrong about where you are from. I'd like to
  think you are from the old Soviet bloc and hence your screen name and a
  good explanation for your view of my country.
   
  I suggest you begin with a little eight grade history primer and work your
  way towards deeper reading. In a few years you can come back, pull up
  a chair and we can talk......I am not angry bloc, would like to talk to you
  again after you've read some serious history......thanks bloc

• mom said on Mar 30, 2007....

  Bloc- I do not read your posts on Torture American Style.  Many years ago, I had this idealized view that only other countries could commit such atrocities.  I was appauled and thought how I was happy that we could not do such things.  I learned later on that yes indeed we do.  I know that we torture just like other countries, I hate torture in any country and wish it wasn't so but all countries do it, I hate to say that it is necessary as that sounds like it is callous.  I don't think the other side would offer up information by inviting them in with tea and crumpets.  So I choose not to talk about it or read stuff on it.

• Nowteam said on Mar 30, 2007....

  Words have power. Ask yourself why you are focused on something so negative....Why would the thought of torture have so much of your attention?

• kelly said on Mar 30, 2007....

  Nowteam:  Because it is a well-adjusted human being's response to horrific behavior.  You seem to be counseling bloc to just look the other way and pretend it doesn't exist.  Just like mom.
  
  
  mobil:  bloc has a firm grasp on reality and common sense.  People advocating torture love to overlook the fact that torture does not produce reliable information.  Look at what the captured British soldiers are saying.  They are denouncing the West.  Why?  Because they are afraid and they'll say anything they think their captors want to hear.  It's the same with torture.  A person being tortured will say anything to make the pain stop.
  
  
  Don't bag on bloc.  A healthy mind indentifies with the victim, the diseased mind identifies with the torturer.
  
  
  Yes, other countries torture and that is why people like me join Amnesty International to put pressure on those people as well, but when we have the chance to hold our very own leaders accountable for disgusting and immoral behavior we ought to do so.
  
  
  mobil, I suggest you do some deeper reading on covert US intervention in Central America and then tell me that America is the moral beacon of the world.  We may have a pretty good thing going here in the US but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.  A lot of room.

• bloc said on Mar 31, 2007....

  @mom
  "I don't think the other side would offer up information by inviting them in with tea and crumpets."
  
  This is a false choice. We do not have to choose between torture and inviting them over for tea. There is plenty of room between these two extremes.
  
  "Why would the thought of torture have so much of your attention?"
  
  For the same reasons that an issue like slavery would command attention. It's an atrocity that needs to have light shined on.
  
  @mobil
  "I am not angry bloc, would like to talk to you again after you've read some serious history"
  
  I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that if something has happened numerous times in history that it's therefore OK for us to do it? Isn't this nearly the same excuse as "bobby did it to". I learned in kindergarten that this isn't a justification for my own actions.
  
  You also made a couple points which seem to contradict each other. You seem to be justifying our use of torture. Am I reading that right? Do you think it's OK for us to use torture? If so, how can you then argue that we are a moral beacon.
  

• mom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Bloc-I can't say that there is or isn't as I am not in that situation, thank goodness, as I couldn't torture anything, I even put bugs outside. I agree, it is atrocious from any country doing it, and I don't have the answer.

• mom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Bloc- I want to ask you what you feel would be a great alternative to the way things are being done.  I am not trying to mock you I really want to know. 

• D6fer said on Mar 31, 2007....

    "As far as torture is concerned we still are on top of the moral becon meter."
  
  bloc said.....wrong. Most industrialized nations do not have an official torture policy. We do. We have lost our moral ground.
  
  most industrialized nations depend on the U.S. to face down threats worldwide for them!

• bloc said on Mar 31, 2007....

  @mom
  First, I think torture is immoral and it's that simple.
  
  Putting that aside, it is a complex issue. I believe that people being tortured will say anything to make the torture stop. I recently posted a video of a captured british sailor admitting on TV that the british were in Iranian waters, and therefore committed a crime, and that the Iranians were wonderful people. This soldier didn't show any signs of having been tortured yet she is saying something she clearly doesn't believe and the obvious reason is that she is afraid. I see no reason to believe that torture will produce reliable information given that it is much more extreme than simple fear, .
  
  To make it even more complicated, we have to also understand that torture doesn't happen in a vacuum. Torture is larger than the pain inflicted on the victim and any information gathered from the pain. The world sees what we do and in the long run our credibility is ruined by torture. More importantly it gives ammunition to terrorist recruitment. Our struggle with radical extremism is a struggle of ideas and ideals. We aren't going to win that struggle by giving up our ideals.
  
  Finally, there is the sad fact that torture is the preferred tool of the lazy and because of this it always spreads. We may start off by torturing only the known high value terrorists, but it will quickly spread to us torturing people who may not even by terrorists. We don't know if they are or not, and maybe they have some information, so let's torture them. Oops, some of them weren't actually terrorists. This happened in abu ghraib and it's happened in other instances. I've posted before about a german and a canadian that were abducted by the US and sent to countries like syria to be tortured. Turns out that both were innocent and one was a complete mistake because he had the same name as a real terrorist. How do you apologize for torturing that person?
  
  Or maybe we don't apologize. Mobil said that I need to read history. Trust me, I'm sure I've read more history than Mobil. You want to know what torture is most commonly used for in history? To get confessions from people often times when they aren't really guilty. The pattern is always the same. Some government, usually a dictator, argues that torture is necessary to defend the nation. Isn't this always the argument used to do terrible things? The torture starts off in small isolated events, but quickly spreads. Oops, did we mistakenly torture some innocent people in our zeal to defend the nation? Uh oh, this could be bad PR. Let's just torture them more until the confess to being guilty even though they aren't guilty. Cover up complete. Hey, here are 20 more people that may know something, but may not. Let's get busy torturing them and we'll find out if any of them know anything. Who cares if some of them are innocent, they'll be guilty by the time we finish torturing them.
  
  Ultimately torture corrupts those that try it. Let me ask a simple question. Many people on this site dislike my point of view. What if I were arrested tomorrow and 6 months from now the Bush administration comes out and says that I have been locked up in gitmo, without the right to a trial, because I had connections to terrorists and was a threat to national security. I'm an enemy combatant. They can't talk about the details of it for national security reasons, but I confessed to the charges. Oh, and I was tortured to get the information.
  
  Is that a moral beacon? Is that freedom? Is that America?
  

• bloc said on Mar 31, 2007....

  @d6
  "most industrialized nations depend on the U.S. to face down threats worldwide for them!"
  and we've done this for many years without our government having a policy of torture. This is clearly not a justification of torture by any form of logical.
  

• bloc said on Mar 31, 2007....

  
  
  

• mom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Bloc- I understand what you are saying.  I also feel that torture is wrong.  I know that people will confess to things just to make the torture stop.  Even our own guys in Vietnam  confessed to things that weren't true, but our nation saw through that.  I don't have the answers any more than you do.  America has been using torture for many years, this is not something new.  This is a no win situation.  If we don't use drastic measures then we gain  little, but if we do then we are no better than the enemies.  I think we are dealing with animals and have to do what it takes to keep our country safe.  I know that sounds unfeeling, I just don't have any answers. 
   
  Bloc- people may not agree with your point of view but you raise some really good points and arguments that get people thinking.  Unfortunately it can get heated.  I really respect you, for being the thinker that you are.  When you are arguing with conservatives, it will always be frustrating, each side holds to their opinions tightly.  I doubt that either side will give an inch.  I don't comment on your blog very often as I know we won't see eye to eye.  I am not one that likes to debate but I had to come on here and give my opinion.

• bloc said on Mar 31, 2007....

  "America has been using torture for many years, this is not something new."
  
  Well, it is new. We didn't have an official policy of torture in either of the world wars, vietnam, or any modern  war. None of those Presidents tried to legalize torture. I'm certain that many soldiers broke under the stress of war and did terrible things, but that is far different from our government legitimizing the use of torture. I'm sure there was a rare instance of planned torture, but it wasn't condoned and it wasn't legitimized and legalized.
  
  "I think we are dealing with animals and have to do what it takes to keep our country safe."
  
  I agree, but I don't think that torture makes us any safer. If anything I think it adds fuel to the fire. The soviet union was a far larger threat than these nutty terrorists. We handled the Soviets well without torture so someone would have to convince me that we couldn't do the same here. In fact, we defeated the soviet union by winning the war of ideas. The world compared our two societies and it was clear that we were better. It took time, but in the end this was our most effective power. I believe that this is exactly what we need in this struggle as well. Becoming animals to fight this battle will not win us this war of ideas in my opinion.
  
  "I am not one that likes to debate but I had to come on here and give my opinion."
  
  I appreciate your thoughts. I'd love for you to share them more often :)
  

• mom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  When we were in the cold war with Russia, we were dealing with a country that fought with brains.  Russia was dangerous because they thought but we could also reason with them or come to an undestanding. We are dealing with people who only deal with violence and that is all they appear to know. How do you communicate with them? 
  A few years ago, when it hit the People magazine about how those women were treating the Iraqi Soldiers, the ones where they photoed them nude and the shit they did to them, I thought those women should have been imprisoned and beaten.  I was so angry with those women.
  I also believe that our guys see first hand people dying and seeing first hand what is going on, and it is understandable that they might not be as forgiving as those who are over here. 
  Thanks for the invite, I just don't want to make an enemy with you.

• kelly said on Mar 31, 2007....

  "I thought those women should have been imprisoned and beaten."
  
  
  And here we have the crux of the issue.  The endless cycle of violence.  The human response to violence always seems to be more violence.  The human race may never grow up.  We are for the most part impoverished when it comes to imagination.  Bloc was right, torture and brute force is the easy, lazy way out.  When the  US tortures it is in effect validating the way the terrorists operate.

• mom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Kelly- so are you saying that those US military women should have been allowed to humiliate the iraqi prisoners? Maybe we should have just looked the other way. 

• mom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Kelly- I just want to know, why is it that I can chat with Bloc and about anyone else even if our opinions differ and it is ok, but you put one sentence down and you just irritate the hell out of me? 

• kelly said on Mar 31, 2007....

  No, I'm saying that a proper investigation followed by charges followed by a trial followed by punishment if that is what is determined is the way to go.  Not adding more meatheaded violence.
  
  
  I have no idea why I irritate you.  I'm just passionate about what I see as terrible behavior and injustice.

• mom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Kelly- I was the one that said that, and I don't literally mean to be taken out and beaten.  I wanted  something definitely done as punishment for their actions.  I was so angry for the things they had done to those men.
  When I speak like that it is because I also feel passionate about things.    I don't mean literally on a lot of things I say, it is just to stress my point on how much anger I feel.

• kelly said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Very well.  But when making comments to a post such as this one (torture) such colloquialisms stand out and take on a different meaning, albeit inadvertently.

• mom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  I will try to keep that in mind :)

• mobil said on Mar 31, 2007....

  @bloc & Kelly, I am old enough to know and have in the past had hopeless
  conversations with people such as the two of you.
   
  Amnesty International, that explains allot about Kelly. No bloc, reading
  history to give you an idea where we came from and how we got here lol.
   
  Both of you have the heart of a woman. When men come for you, they will
  not listen to your whining.
   
  I have had more than enough of it already. I will leave you two in this
  sandbox.
   

• lioneljay said on Mar 31, 2007....

  @Mobil, so a manly person is one who believes in torture? I'm not sure whether to say that I'm surprised that any rational person would say such a thing, or to say that I'm not surprised to see you post it.

• secretlife said on Mar 31, 2007....

  We may have a pretty good thing going here in the US but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. 
   
  Yeah, it's a 'pretty' good thing we live in a country that allows everyone the right to free speech so they can criticize it. 
   
   
   
   
   
   

• kelly said on Mar 31, 2007....

  secretlife:  Yes, that's right.  And if you don't exercise it you lose it.  Apparently you think that if we have that right then we shouldn't be using it.  But our speech isn't so free.  You do know about "free speech zones" don't you?
  
  

• D6fer said on Mar 31, 2007....

  bloc....with today's media (internet) what goes on behind closed doors, is coming into the open. There may not be any evidence that the U.S. has tortured for many years, but that doesn't mean it hasn't taken place. I think that the Geneva convention is evidence to that. Here are laws created internationally, under the guise of decency, that are simply a tool to give our adversaries an unfair advantage in warfare. We know the rest of the world does not follow these laws. and as I have pointed out the role that the U.S. plays in the world today is that of the protector to most of the other industrialized nations (where we have a financial stake albeit) And we are facing a new adversary that is downright barbaric. Sometimes when you are hunting for animals...you gotta crawl in a hole.

• D6fer said on Mar 31, 2007....

  does the theory described in your post also apply to you bloc? you seem to get pretty peeved over some others viewpoints as well.

• D6fer said on Mar 31, 2007....

  also....how do you know the policies of the bush administration are not the will of the american people? surely you cant think that because a majority of posts on your comment that condem this represents americas population on the whole? The squeeky wheel gets the grease. There is such a thing as the silent majority you know. Heres how the process of public condemnation works: The media tells us what we think about an issue over and over again, they find as many well spoken and sanely sounding radicals as they can that represent the point they are trying to make. Put them on T.V. over and over for weeks and months. Celebrities take on the cause...you'll even see them incorporate the point of view into their programming. Then they start taking polls...brainwashing.....it's easier than you think.

• kelly said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Torture is not about gaining information.  It's about terrorism and the gratification of a sociopathic and sadistic mind.  It's a pity that in this world we have people like D6fer advocating for this kind of behavior.  Once you crawl down that hole you're never going to crawl back out.

• mobil said on Mar 31, 2007....

  @LJ, bloc, kelly , I think you misunderstood my comment, that doesn't
  surprise me either LJ. Have you ever been tortured?
   
  Few here seem to understand war, what it does to men and what matters to
  those men who have to live in an altered mental state. Until you have done
  that, you really cannot fully understand nor therefore speak intelligently to the
  topic.
   
  When I said men, I meant those men who have no heart, none. The men who
  will bash your head in with the butt of their rifle for pleasure. It is these men,
  not me, who when they come for you will not listen to your pleas, your cries
  for mercy, they don't care.
   
  The United States is one of just a very few nations who have actually tried
  to make this world a better place so men can debate these things and
  children can grow in freedom everywhere.
   
  We have tried throughout history to live by the Geneva Convention, but it is
  an impossible document to live up to under the conditions of war. That's why
  almost no one else has even tried. Yes, perhaps the Netherlands has tried,
  but that's a joke isn't it?
   
  I was tortured for two days, nothing serious. A smallish, ghoulish fellow took
  pleasure in smashing me in the head and upper body with the butt of his
  rifle. It was with great pleasure that I was able to secret a rock in my hand
  and bash his head in with it.
   
  I can still feel his skull going from hard to soft under the weight of that rock.
  It's not the same to talk about torture from our easy chairs as it is when a
  young mind is enraged. It is impossible to stop young men who have to
  hate the enemy to survive from torturing and hating.
   
  bloc makes too much of it, the media has made too much of it. We have
  media now going out and reporting about young men doing horrible things.
  Newsflash, it's always been done, in the past the media was on the side of
  The United States. That's changed, and high minded people such as
  yourself hold young men hot with rage accountable in their blogs.
   
  I am not condoning torture, I am telling you that it's going to happen. Like it
  or not, shop will be set up someplace and information extracted. Can the
  United States afford to behave like Mother Teresa in the climate we are in
  today? Haha, you clowns will say yes to this, I just know it.
   
  It's always about how awful the United States is, it's left wing horse shit and
  it's making us weak as a nation. You say you want to be better than this.
  What you are really saying is you want us to be like the Netherlands. I want us
  to be like we used to be. Strong and free, proud and united that we are
  without a doubt the finest nation that God ever blew breath into.
   

• D6fer said on Mar 31, 2007....

  thanks mobil! very good point indeed!

• kelly said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Good point mobil.  Perhaps we should not prosecute anyone who commits a murder in the heat of the moment as that has been going on since the beginning of time.
  
  
  I would have thought that your horrible experience would have led you to different conclusions.  Apparently not.

• penmom said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Bloc said  "Ultimately torture corrupts those that try it."

  One only has to look at the faces of those US soldiers pictured with the prisoners in Abugraib (sp?) to see that they have taken some pleasure in the power they have over their victims. Will they ever be the same young people who left home only months before?

  in addition, I don't believe the Geneva Conventions are just a nice piece of writing. I think they mean something. If we just go along saying that we have to do it because they do, it our civilization will never stop this downward spiral into uncivility. Someone has to stick to the high road. I used to think it was the USA.

• secretlife said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Perhaps we should not prosecute anyone who commits a murder in the heat of the moment as that has been going on since the beginning of time.

  kelly, your analogy sucks. it shows how unwilling you are to be reasonable.  everything is taken out of context to make your point. 

  it's easy to be morally superior and outraged when you'll never be placed in the position of these boys who are risking their lives daily for YOUR freedom.

  we tell them to hate the enemy.  to kill the enemy.  we train them to do this and we expect them to do this.  

  Nobody likes torture.  Nobody...no rational person is going to tell you torture is good or torture is right.  And i don't think anyone here is saying that. 

  But i'm not naive enough to believe that it doesn't happen, that it hasn't always happened and that it will probably always continue as long as we have war.  What's changed is now the media feeds pictures and films of these events to every easychair judge - and in doing so places a spotlight on these things. 

  Nobody here is saying torture is good or right. Just that as long as there's been war, there's been torture. 

• mobil said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Well spoken SL, but your words are wasted as were mine. Kelly

  sees through blinders, and he doesn't think at all. A bad combination

  indeed......off to the bd.haha

• anonymous said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Why do people get angry at your posts on torture? Because intelligence scares them.

• bloc said on Mar 31, 2007....

  @sl
  There is a giant difference between torture happening in the heat of war, and torture being an official and legalized policy. Using the former to justify the later is an analogy that sucks.
  
  I don't think kelly intends to take you out of context. Unfortunately I don't fully understand your point. For example, "as long as there's been war, there's been torture." I don't know what your point is. Are you saying it's ok to torture because a lot of other people have tortured before? I'm sure your not saying that, so I'm left wondering what it is that your saying. Again, Bush is officially sanctioning torture. This is very different from soldiers breaking under the stress of war. I highly recommend an hbo documentary called "the ghosts of abu ghraib". It gives all the details of the context of what happened in Abu Ghraib. I would love to know your thoughts on it.
  
  @mobil
  Calling us names, questioning our manhood, and making pointless appeals to history is not a cogent point of view. I enlisted in the US army when I was 17 years old. I've been deployed. What have you done?
  

• anonymous said on Mar 31, 2007....

  mobil has a pattern of questioning the manhood of male posters when he can't articulate an intelligent response to them.

• mobil said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Anonymous; you coward, you've  made it easy to know who you are too lol.
   
  bloc, I will not waste further time here with you. Good luck in getting to the
  bottom of this.
   
  So, you were deployed huh? I salute you Sir ! I've done nothing of note.

• bloc said on Mar 31, 2007....

  Some more on this topic form andrew sullivan
  
  

  "More and more military prosecutors are refusing to prosecute "enemy combatants" in the terror war. Why? Not because some of these combatants are innocent. Many are not. But because many have been subjected to torture by the U.S.. From the WSJ today (subscription only, alas):

  When the Pentagon needed someone to prosecute a Guantanamo Bay prisoner linked to 9/11, it turned to Lt. Col. V. Stuart Couch. A Marine Corps pilot and veteran prosecutor, Col. Couch brought a personal connection to the job: His old Marine buddy, Michael "Rocks" Horrocks, was co-pilot on United 175, the second plane to strike the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001.

  The prisoner in question, Mohamedou Ould Slahi, had already been suspected of terrorist activity. After the attacks, he was fingered by a senior al Qaeda operative for helping assemble the so-called Hamburg cell, which included the hijacker who piloted United 175 into the South Tower. To Col. Couch, Mr. Slahi seemed a likely candidate for the death penalty.

  "Of the cases I had seen, he was the one with the most blood on his hands," Col. Couch says.

  But, nine months later, in what he calls the toughest decision of his military career, Col. Couch refused to proceed with the Slahi prosecution. The reason: He concluded that Mr. Slahi's incriminating statements - the core of the government's case - had been taken through torture, rendering them inadmissible under U.S. and international law.

  The Slahi case marks a rare instance of a military prosecutor refusing to bring charges because he thought evidence was tainted by torture. For Col. Couch, it also represented a wrenching personal challenge. Laid out starkly before him was a collision between the government's objectives and his moral compass.

  The critical paragraph in the story for me is the following:

  In the following weeks, Mr. Slahi said, he was placed in isolation, subjected to extreme temperatures, beaten and sexually humiliated. The detention-board transcript states that at this point, "the recording equipment began to malfunction." It summarizes Mr. Slahi's missing testimony as discussing "how he was tortured while here at GTMO by several individuals."

  Remember the missing critical Padilla DVD? Recall that David Hicks has been put under a gag-order against discussing the torture techniques used against him by the US? Evidence is "disappeared." Detainees are gagged. Verdicts are pronounced based on testimony procured through torture. Col Couch is not stupid. He must also know that prosecuting a detainee while knowing he has been tortured is a war-crime. Every military prosecutor tasked by Bush and Cheney to prosecute torture victims is being set up as a war criminal. Bush and Cheney, meanwhile, secured their own legal impunity in the Military Commissions Act last year.

  Under this president and vice-president, we are beginning to live in a banana republic."

  
  

• Zayda said on Mar 31, 2007....

  I think, bloc, people get upset because this seems to be such a polarizing topic on one end or the other.
  
  So people get upset with you for the posts and other people get upset with comments one way or the other.
  
  
  It's a highly charged topic.
  
  
  However, I don't think you are the kind of person to let such things as people being upset with your posts on torture stop you from posting. I think it's important that we are made aware of the issue and not turn a blind eye to it.

• D6fer said on Mar 31, 2007....

  "The statements that make people mad are the ones they worry might be believed."

  bloc....I think this part of your statement would be more accurate.

• shiningstar said on Apr 01, 2007....

  I will just put in my two cents worth here.  Facts may change but principals do not.  If I choose to be a moral light to the world I would not be setting an example of torturing people.  Children learn from example as we all learn.  America used to be known for the principals protecting human rights which we can no longer claim to be doing if we torture anyone.  Does the ends justify the means???Only if it is not you or your loved ones being tortured.  Another view perhaps is that once TV,  movies, books and pictures seem to desensitize the people to the horror of torture as it moves closer to home we lose our perspective about it.--As a so called Christian nation is that really what we desire to be known for???The ability to torture people who are helpless and do not have the equal power to fight back is what used to be known as a bully.

• silverwhisper said on Apr 01, 2007....

  torture is inevitable. that much is obvious. but does that mean that when a government makes it a matter of policy that we should throw up our hands and give up? that's just cowardice. cowardice that our opinions don't matter, cowardice that we should simply accept what our government tells us, cowardice that maybe we can't look at the wrongs and demand better.
  
  ed

• mobil said on Apr 01, 2007....

  Since most agree that torture is inevitable and that it occurs and has
  occurred throughout history, that:
   
  Perhaps some sort of policy regarding it's use just might be the most
  humane way to handle this disgusting method of interrogation?

• bloc said on Apr 01, 2007....

  @mobil
  I think that's a reasonable point. I disagree with it, but a good case can be made for it. My guess is that if Bush had done this we'd be having a very different conversation. The biggest problem, aside from the torture itself, is the complete lack of transparency and oversight of the Bush Admin. They do very controversial things in secret, then get caught years latter, and make some lame justification for it. I think we can all agree that that isn't the way a democracy should function.
  
  Also, I wouldn't be nearly as outraged if this stuff had only happened to a few high level terrorists, but that isn't the case.
  
  @zayda
  I'm sure what you say is a major factor, but many of my posts and topics are controversial and polarizing. For some reason this topic elicits a distinct response that I don't get from all the others even when those get heated. I've had a few people ask me (some indirectly) to stop posting about torture. Others have asked my "why post about torture?". I don't get this from any of the other topics.
  
  I think that this happens because most of us know that torture is a terrible thing and shouldn't happen yet don't want to think about it happening in our names. Or maybe we all know in the back of our minds that this particular issue has been used, particularly by conservatives such as Reagan, to distinguish ourselves from others. Most of us have bought into that old argument and some of these people want to have their cake and eat it to. They want to maintain that feeling of moral superiority AND they want to defend Bush's policies AND they don't want to face the cognitive dissonance that my posts highlight.
  

• Zayda said on Apr 01, 2007....

  i wonder, bloc, if people ask "why post about torture" because they somehow think by posting about it and linking to pictures of it that you are somehow contributing to the desensitizing of it?
  
  
  but then that begs the question, is not talking about it merely sweeping it under the rug?

• mom said on Apr 01, 2007....

  Bloc- your blogs give me nightmares or at least contribute to them. Where is my meds?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I need my meds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

• bloc said on Apr 01, 2007....

  @zayda
  interesting thoughts. Given the people that made those comments I wouldn't characterize them as worrying about desensitization.
  
  @mom
  stay away from the meds, learn from anna nichole smith ;)
  

• mom said on Apr 01, 2007....

  LOL, I just don't know if I can cope without them.  That means I will have to actually think.

• Zayda said on Apr 01, 2007....

  bloc--well, since i'm not sure who is making such comments, i was thinking through the issue with what information i did have.
  
  i think desensitization is something i worry about but then i'm not so sure that we are capable of ever being desensitized to such images.

• mom said on Apr 01, 2007....

  Zayda- I really hope that we don't but I wouldn't be surprised if some of our youth became desensitized to any violence.

• shiningstar said on Apr 02, 2007....

  If anyone is interested in reading about our governments involvement in torture

• shiningstar said on Apr 03, 2007....

  I think the closed mindeness that exists when people refuse to accept the facts of torture or anything that goes against their beliefs,  their comfort zones and is different traditionally is met with attacks that cannot deny the truth so they condemn the messenger.  That's what happened to Jesus and is still ahappening today.

• lioneljay said on Apr 03, 2007....

  bloc, I suspect that some of the vehemence with which certain people discuss torture around here comes from a bad case of defensiveness. They have invested much of their belief in following the Current Occupant and react to nearly all criticism in the same way that he does: by dismissing it as the irrelevant rantings of people who do not deserve to be heard. The trouble is that, as you have well articulated, they also want to believe that the U.S. is the world's moral high ground regardless of how we behave because, almost ipso facto, all others are worse. It's a false position and I believe that on some level they all know this and this dissonance heats up the defensiveness of their posts.
  

• bloc said on Apr 03, 2007....

  @lionel
  My biggest complaint with the defenders are the obvious contradictions
  
  some other nation tortures:
  "look how evil they are, they torture people. They are insane animals that can't be reasoned with"
  
  Then we torture:
  "torture happens all the time, what are people complaining about. we should legalize torture since it's going to happen anyway."
  
  Non that I've discussed this with have addressed that contradiction.
  

• lioneljay said on Apr 03, 2007....

  Bloc, I doubt if any of your dissenters will actually discuss anything, much less the contradictory positions that they so regularly take. They much prefer to call people names, call into question the manhood of male liberals, and ignore any rational rebuttals to their positions.

• D6fer said on Apr 03, 2007....

  You like pictures bloc.....ever seen this one? 
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  

  Maybe you'd like the movie instead? Why_I_don't_care_if_we_torture_terrorists!

  
  

  I have never watched it myself....the audio haunted me....I have never been so disturbed by anything in my life.

  
  

  this is what they want to do to us.

• D6fer said on Apr 04, 2007....

  supposed to be a pic there....obviously I don't know how to post that....Sorry

• kruuyai said on Apr 04, 2007....

  Well, this was interesting to revisit after not having internet for  a few days.  I have some questions.  I think it was kelly who mentioned something about a "free speech zone."  I never heard of that.  What is it?  Would someone please enlighten me?  Sounds very scary.
   
  Then, I think it was mom who commented that it was nothing new that the US used torture, and it was either bloc or kelly who said that it is new, because the US never had an official policy on torture before.  Are we all forgetting about the School of the Americas in Fort Bening, Georgia whose primary purpose was to train terrorists and guerrillas in torture methods... one of the most notable graduates being Manuel Noriega?   (Supposedly, it's been renamed or moved, but I believe it hasn't changed functionally).

• bloc said on Apr 04, 2007....

  @d6
  I learned in kindergarten that the bad actions of another is not a valid justification for my less bad actions.
  
  @kruuyai
  I know about the school of the america's. In fact I've played soccer with some of the people that attended that school (while i was stationed in georgia). Yes, we trained them to do bad things, however we hid it. We did not legalize torture in american law. We tried to do it secretly by proxy. I still see this as distinctly different.
  

• silverwhisper said on Apr 04, 2007....

  i suspect kruuyai is trying to establish a pattern of behavior, bloc.
  
  ed

• bloc said on Apr 04, 2007....

  yeah, and she's right. But I wanted to make it clear why I think this new stuff is different. Why it's worse. 

• Moelt said on Nov 17, 2007....

  I am not aware of everything that goes on in war, but there are a few things that I still believe. The US does still stick to the high road. The US is still the leader in morality simply because we did punish those soldiers who tortured those Iraqi soldiers. The world saw that. Even if it may have been only because the US citizens raised an outcry against our errant soldiers, don’t you think it still sent the message to the world that we do value moral behavior?

  There have been several documentaries on TV exposing torturous behavior done by our military. Even on our own people. One was when we experimented with LSD. Despicable behavior, but exposing it told the world that we, the people, do not condone this. This in itself is a powerful message.

• bloc said on Nov 17, 2007....

  
  "The US is still the leader in morality simply because we did punish those soldiers who tortured those Iraqi soldiers."
  
  
  But there were a lot of other people responsible that weren't punished, and there is a lot of torture that happend outside of abu ghraib. The Bush admin has specifically ordered tortured and until they are held accountable we are no longer on the moral high road.

• Moelt said on Nov 20, 2007....

  Okay. I accede your point, but how else do you propose we get the much needed information from the terrorists? You said earlier that we can use common sense and discussion, but you have to be dealing with people who are open to that. We were dealing with such people way back when, but now I don’t believe we are. It is unfortunate, I know, but what else are we to do when those we’re needing to get information from will not behave in any manner that is anything else but barbaric? Should we try kindness? How do we know our government hasn’t already tried that? Compassion? I believe we already are doing that with the way we are mainly keeping these people. The problem is these people don’t understand that behavior. They are convinced it is only evidence of weakness. How do we deal with that? Violence is a last, desperate act but how do we know our government hasn’t been driven to that by now? We don’t know what all has been going on and we don’t know what all our government knows. What if our government knows more of what the terrorists have in mind now and sees that things are getting desperate? I don’t know very much about war because I’ve never been engaged in it. I’ve only been witness to it as much as the TV can show. So maybe I am way out of line here, but because of my ignorance, I can’t condemn those who use torture. One thing I do know, though, is war does stretch us well past our limits and people do have to make lightening fast decisions. How do I know if the use of torture is the only way those in charge can see to get information that is immediately needed? I do believe, however, that our government is not using many of the methods used by the terrorists. For that, I am thankful.

• bloc said on Nov 20, 2007....

  "We were dealing with such people way back when, but now I don’t believe we are."
  
  I don't believe terrorists are such different animals from the nazis or the soviets.
  
  "Violence is a last, desperate act but how do we know our government hasn’t been driven to that by now?"
  
  This is a good question and my answer is simple. In a democracy the government shouldn't torture people in secret with no oversight from the other branches of government. That's far too much power left in the hands of a few individuals. I'd love it if our country had and honest and open debate about this subject, but Bush refuses. There are other very important issues at play here. We have numerous laws against torture and we have treaty obligations against torture. If Bush or anyone else believes that we need to torture then they need to publicly remove our signature from the Geneva Conventions and get our congress to change the laws. The idea that a President should secretly violate laws whenever they see fit is unamerican in my opinion.
  
  "I can’t condemn those who use torture."
  
  Then we can't condemn it when it's down to our soldiers either. We need to be consistent at least. Here are some good reads if you want more clarification on my position.
  
  link 1
  
  link 2
  
  link 3
  
  
  

• Moelt said on Nov 26, 2007....

  Hi, bloc. Sorry I'm just now getting back to you. Holidays here can get hectic.

  But I still can't get to the links you provided right now but I will as soon as I can.

  I think this blog is interesting. I am learning quite a lot here.

• bluegum said on Mar 11, 2008....

  The use of torture should not be lawful .America,Australia,England by using and allowing this intellegent gathering methods are teaching,showing how easily we throw away our reputations of above the use of torture,and are our imigrant population to view us as only a good place to live .

• kelly said on Mar 21, 2008....

  When a government tortures it is a blatant admission of its own impotence.  With all the intellect and technology available the resort to violence speaks volumes about the lack of imagination and morality that those at the top have.

• G-girl said on Jul 27, 2008....

  Simply denial! I find people don't want to see that they have sided with an evil man or evil administration. they think they were right in voting him into office and refuse to see the betrayal.

  When is the last time you have heard of a leader of a Western Civilization opting for torture? The Spanish Inquisition? People voted Hitler into power too, thinking he was right at first. You can't say no one saw that coming!

• G-girl said on Jul 27, 2008....

  Simply denial! I find people don't want to see that they have sided with an evil man or evil administration. they think they were right in voting him into office and refuse to see the betrayal.

  When is the last time you have heard of a leader of a Western Civilization opting for torture? The Spanish Inquisition? People voted Hitler into power too, thinking he was right at first. You can't say no one saw that coming!

• G-girl said on Jul 27, 2008....

  Simply denial! I find people don't want to see that they have sided with an evil man or evil administration. they think they were right in voting him into office and refuse to see the betrayal.

  When is the last time you have heard of a leader of a Western Civilization opting for torture? The Spanish Inquisition? People voted Hitler into power too, thinking he was right at first. You can't say no one saw that coming!

  This man and his minions should be tried for war crimes.

• G-girl said on Jul 27, 2008....

  Simply denial! I find people don't want to see that they have sided with an evil man or evil administration. they think they were right in voting him into office and refuse to see the betrayal.

  When is the last time you have heard of a leader of a Western Civilization opting for torture? The Spanish Inquisition? People voted Hitler into power too, thinking he was right at first. You can't say no one saw that coming!

  This man and his minions should be tried for war crimes.

• G-girl said on Jul 27, 2008....

  Simply denial! I find people don't want to see that they have sided with an evil man or evil administration. they think they were right in voting him into office and refuse to see the betrayal.

  When is the last time you have heard of a leader of a Western Civilization opting for torture? The Spanish Inquisition? People voted Hitler into power too, thinking he was right at first. You can't say no one saw that coming!

  This man and his minions should be tried for war crimes.

• G-girl said on Jul 27, 2008....

  Simply denial! I find people don't want to see that they have sided with an evil man or evil administration. they think they were right in voting him into office and refuse to see the betrayal.

  When is the last time you have heard of a leader of a Western Civilization opting for torture? The Spanish Inquisition? People voted Hitler into power too, thinking he was right at first. You can't say no one saw that coming!

  This man and his minions should be tried for war crimes.

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