• anonymous said on Mar 13, 2007....

  shut the fuck up

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 13, 2007....

  What he said was ignorant.  But those are his beilefs and those of many religious people.  Being gay is strictly forbidden in the Bible.  And before people start spouting off about Jesus this and that, Jesus himself said he didn't come to replace Jewish law, but to complete it.  His views on divorce and adultry are good examples of the fact that he wasn't the free loving all is forgiven guy that people try to make him out to be. 
   
  That soldiers opinion are no unique to him.  The military is largely made up of republicans and Christians.  Open gays in the military would likely cause some problems, I personally like the don't ask don't tell policy and while it is true that you can be discharged for being gay, that's not really how it works in practice.  Unless your a dick to your unit nobody is going to speak up and get you busted.
   
  I'm not withougt sin but I'll throw that first stone in a heartbeat.  It needs to be thrown.

• husbandhater said on Mar 13, 2007....

  Sean I think Jesus was forgiving but his views on divorce and adultry was more about correcting Jewish misconceptions(Giving Gods law and not mans laws. He told the lady at the well that Moses gave the decree for divorce b/c he saw hard hearts. But that there really was no such thing as divorce and  that you were married till Death did you part. What that has to do with forgiveness and free loving I have no idea. But as usual you are nothing less than intriguing Sean.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 13, 2007....

  sean, i have a different view re: jewish bible/christian bible. :>
  
  he can say whatever the hell he likes and yeah, it was incredibly stupid of him to say publicly. i think he's wrong and honestly, if his religion is the reason he feels this way he should spend a whole lot more time making sure his troops don't go whoring than worrying about something the bible addresses so very, very infrequently. :>
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 13, 2007....

  Like bestiality they figured that you didn't need to harp on something so obvious as don't fuck guys.
   
  That was hardly a misconception.  He just changed/updated the rules.  Moses didn't mishear him or copy it down wrong, circumstances had changed since those times.

• minniemouse said on Mar 13, 2007....

  I have never been in the military, so I am just speaking from my heart here, if a person is un-selfish enough to be willing to give up their life to serve and fight for what our country stands for, then I don't give a rats ass whether they are gay, straight, woman, man, black, white, jewish, catholic, muslim.......etc.....I could go on, but I don't want to be a post hog. 

  When are people just going to GROW UP and learn to get along and treat each other with respect?  There are people who just use a religion and morality as an excuse to hide behind and judge others, while exempting themselves from judgement because they are "good christians" and are moral.....you know, like Jerry Fallwell or Ted Haggard......

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 13, 2007....

  At what point Minnie do you need to judge?  Maybe you don't think gays are the straw that broke the camels back.  Maybe you (like many people) think the line is drawn at pedophila, rape or murder.  Assuming being gay is a choice (which is a debate for another time) then it is a conscious desicion made by these individuals and some people deem that it is unnatural and/or evil. 
   
  Its rather simple.  If you are a Christian (as opposed to a spiritualist or what not) then you believe homosexuality to be a sin.  (of course you can twist the Bible around and ignore that if you please)  If you believe it is a sin then you should not be condoning it nor should you associate with people who do it.  If you lay with dogs you get up with fleas no?

• ALIENated said on Mar 13, 2007....

  I say, gay is not OK, BUT, there have been gays in the armies of the world
  as long as there have been armies. The only difference is our incredibly
  stupid politically correct attitudes of today. You can bet half the Roman
  army was gay, and half of Rome itself. I think that is what toppled that
  great empire. And that is what God is talking about in the very clear message
  in the Bible (I love when people use the Bible to find loopholes in an obviously
  straightforward principle). The gay lifestyle, like abortion, undermines the
  family. The family is the foundation of any society. When families go, the
  society goes, such as Roman went by its own actions, not by one of
  its enemies.
  
  The general (?) is right if he said having gays in the military is bad. It probably
  undermines the military just like it does society in general. And why does 
  everyone have to dance around what they think about people who practice
  what most think is a disgusting way of life. (I would love to be able to read 
  some of your minds to see what you really think. It is cowards like you that
  have gotten us to this point.) If someone says one negative word about gays
  it is a hate crime. Talk about 1984 (the book, not the year gone by). 
  
  You find eating dog turds repulsive, right? What if I demanded to define my 
  self by eating dog turds and demanded that you LIKE it and RESPECT me for
  it, and never say a word about it? What if I demanded special rights and 
  special treatment? What if I said I was born with the uncontrollable urge to
  eat dog turds--God made me this way? I know. It is not the same thing. 
  Bull. It is to me, and probably to about 80 or 90 percent of the people out
  there, if they be honest.
  
  Sorry for the rant, but you asked and I told.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 13, 2007....

  80-90%  Wow you live in a close minded area of the world.  I know out here in Cali its probably as low as 30-40% probably less than that if lesbians are counted and male opinions are asked.  For the majority of us what doesn't effect us directly doesn't matter. 
   
  Its fools and their religion that are keeping this country from advancing.  The sooner we stop basing morality, decision and policy on a two thousand year old fairy tale told to let little Jewish children sleep at night and give hope to an oppressed people that life won't suck forever.

• ALIENated said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Thanks Sean. You are so right. I will follow satan. It is good to be free at last.

• sweetsoul said on Mar 14, 2007....

  I remember years ago feeling similar thoughts about women's place in society. I worked with a Board of Directors that were mostly male local politicians...some of them you wouldn't give the time of day to if it wasn't for their position. They'd often come out with sexist comments. I used to say, I wasn't naive enough to think they didn't believe those comments, but I'd hope they were smart enough to realize it wasn't appropriate to voice them.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 14, 2007....

  alienated quoth:
  the gay lifestyle, like abortion, undermines the family.

  
  that's just plain silly, alienated. refusing to allow gays to be married, now that undermines the family unit.
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Satan, capital S, show some respect boy.  He's done more good for humanity and killed less than the guy you follow.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 14, 2007....

  perhaps he meant satin? in which case alienated may be considering going into fashion design? :>
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  You have a good point, and satin is usually sinfully comfortable.

• husbandhater said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Now now Boys!lol

• NobodySpecial said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Alienated- So gays are the reason the Roman Empire fell. I always thought it was overexpansion mixed with corruption and oppresion along with raids by 'Barbarians'.
   

• mobil said on Mar 14, 2007....

  I don't like the gay agenda, I don't like seeing gay people. I don't think it's
  a happy lifestyle. I don't think gays should be married, but should have
  civil protection for their property and their arrangement.
   
  I think the whole gay thing weakens the fabric of society. I think allot of
  fucking things about gays that has nothing to do with religion.
   
  I don't give a rats ass what you or anyone else thinks. It's how I am about
  such things. That's my opinion, that and six bucks will buy you a cup of coffee.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Well that's fine mobil, but unless you can show proof, not opinion of how and where it weakens society then you shouldn't be voting against it.

• husbandhater said on Mar 14, 2007....

  rotflmao,hey Nobody Special where have you been? 

• mobil said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Show me proof that it doesn't Sean, I didn't say I'd prove it, I said;

  I think it weakens the fabric of society !

  It's a logical conclusion. Butt fucking men isn't natural Sean. The idea

  of it disgusts me. Someone made up a word; homophobe, that's me.

  Times have changed, I haven't changed with allot of these new notions

  about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness Sean. Some day I will

  die and the world will have to go on without me........haha

  I didn't vote on anything, simply stated my opinion. I can do that can't I?

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  I assume in the last five years a ballot for gay marriage has passed by you, so while I shouldn't put words in your mouth it is a safe assumption that you've voted against this sometime after 2001.
   
  As for proof that it doesn't should we start by showing the acheivements they've had like Senators, leaders of of the FBI, Roman Emperors, countless play rights and actors and then ask to show one negative thing that has come from it.
   
  What defines natural?  Buttfucking men isn't natural?  But buttfucking a woman is, for that matter getting head or masturbation is?  You obviously aren't basing natural on intended to produce children.
   
  I don't think your supposed to be proud of being a bigot/homophobe.  I could be wrong though.
   
  Of course you can state your opinion.

• husbandhater said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Moe are you a bigot? Your words don't reach me as so. How did we get so off topic?

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  We aren't off subject, if anything he's proving my point that this General while wrong isn't disconnected with America entirely.  There are those, atleast two of which have posted here that agree with him at least in part.

• mobil said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Sean, I can only view the world as I see it. I cannot see it through your eyes,
  nor you through mine.
   
  I vote in every election yes, Montana hasn't had a vote on gay marriage. It
  is why I came here many years ago. We don't vote on ridiculous horseshit
  here Sean, at least not yet.
   
  When people live close to the land, they don't need a horses ass to tell them
  what's natural and what isn't.
   
  I define natural Sean, just like you do. NO, men butt fucking men isn't natural.
  Yes, men butt fucking women is, so is jerking off. I didn't say anything about
  producing children, I said NATURAL.
   
  Why in the hell shouldn't I be proud of being a bigot and a homophobe? You
  are proud to support men butt fucking each other and most likely a wagon
  load of other weird shit.
   
  As I said, I see life as I see it. You and I can write back and forth till the
  cows come home. We ain't going to change much, maybe think less of each
  other.........I'm done...........thanks Sean

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Nah, I couldn't possibly think any less of you mobil :-P
   
  Your definition of normal is terribly skewed to mean what you want it to at any moment, as long as we are clear on that we're cool.
   
  You make a good point, which I pointed out earlier in a blog called forcing one's beliefs.  You have a stand (albeit a wrong one) but you stick to it and defend it.  Which while it makes you a debating opponent I'd rather have people like you out there that have inteligent/semi-inteligent reasons for their actions than the vast majority of sheeple who I have no use for.

• mobil said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Natural Sean, I never said normal, two different animals all together. So, I
  guess we are cool LOL.
   
  I know I said I was done, I often back track on that, shame on me haha. I did
  want to come back this one last time and thank you for the back handed
  compliment Sean.
   
  I am not as awful as you probably think from this back and forth. I am a kind
  and loving soul. I'd even help a gay guy out if he were in trouble. How's
  that for big hearted? haha
   
  Thanks again Sean for your (albeit wrong) but healthy debate.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  I'm very flattering of people I respect, note debates between me and Silver or bloc. 
   
  I don't think your horrible, I think your misguided.  But you know what honestly there are people ahead of you inline for the needed changes.  I'm to busy harping on those people who are against the HPV vaccine because it might make girls into whores (note there are good reasons to be upset over it) to really spend too much time defending gays, since I'm not.
   
  I'm still in a tizzy over how you can say that oral/anal sex is more natural between opposite sexes than the same as natural to me would be restricted to vaginal but hey I'm sure we'll cross swords again, like bloc and me are forced to do from time to time I'm willing to call this one even.  Bes

• mom said on Mar 14, 2007....

  I like the don't ask and don't tell policy.  What I don't like is that everything is so politically correct.   Political Correctness is all one sided. A person that has different beliefs than me can get up and say all kinds of shit but when someone voices his opinion like that soldier did, then it is unconscionable. 

• agentPit said on Mar 14, 2007....

  In my opinion, there are 2 type of Gay.
  
  1) Gene mal-function: Of course it is anomaly.  But, will you discriminate against a crippled or physical challenge individual? Will you consider them irritate and not deserve what normal people way of life and should be respected?
  
  2) Some gays were'nt born homosexual but rather introduced into such lifestyle in certain circumstances. It's like drugs, addicted when being exploited.
  
  Some of you disgust on how Gays engage their sex: oral or anal. However, you may forgotten heterosexual couples also engage oral and experiment on anal.
  
  Now you know something  non of the medi-professional & politician dare to mention.  It's your decision to continue your opinionated view toward them or try keep open minded to respect individual right, freedom and choice and fuck the hypocrite religion thinking that cause mankind kill each other for another 1000's yrs.
  
  In arm-forces, beginning are all men affairs then gradually evolved into women are acceptable. When there isn't war around, soldiers are strictly selected to those with muscles and big. When war time came, those macho stuff into closet, as long as healthy and willing to sacrifice to protect, all accepted. How pathetic. All begin from? The Top of the food chain.
  
  
  
  

• mom said on Mar 14, 2007....

  So Agent Pit which one of the descriptions that you gave do you fall into?

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Ouch, particularly since I don't think he's wrong on that entirely though to be fair his second definition is more negative sounding than I prefer to phrase it.

• mom said on Mar 14, 2007....

  I think it was how he worded it all that made me want to jump across the screen and hurt him.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  I mean lets look at it.  If you accept that being gay is something you ARE not something you choose to be which seems to be the popular consesus (correct me if I'm wrong) then it must be a chemical imbalance or genetic misfire of some sort because it certainly isn't normal.  I'll go as far as to say that if this opinion is true that homosexuality could rightly be defined as a disease (albeit a mainly benign one) and might even be "treatable" for lack of better terms.  That pretty much is what he said for number 1.
   
  For number 2, that is the belief that it is a choice and if you are exposed to it is more likely that you will begin displaying this kind of behavoir.  Monkey see, monkey do.  This one, I think is flawed because it can't explain where the first one came from.  I think that everybody is a little gay, on averge guys are probably like 80-90% straight an girls are like 60-80% straight though this is partially because society accepts and even partially encourages lesbians but there is no such love for gays.  Some people experimented and found out they liked it.
   
  While I'm sure chemicals in the brain have something to do with it I've always felt that it was a choice.  Just like chemicals fill me with the urges to do all those violent things I dream about (not all against women) but  I keep in check, though admittedly it has been a trying week. 

• mom said on Mar 14, 2007....

  My beef wasn't with his number 1 or number 2, my irritation came on the next 2 paragraphs.  He just rubs me the wrong way.

  Sean- let's talk about your dreams.   What is going on that makes you feel violent?

   

• mom said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Sean I have been feeling honery all day.  My poor husband.

• lambovet said on Mar 14, 2007....

  et al; this is an interesting issue of what the general said and everyones interpretation of it. Here's another- As a Viet Nam vet, I can attest that during the many firefights I was involved in, I never once worried about inadvertently being kissed, even when it was very dark. I know now that I was getting fucked but that hardly qualifies as sexual. At any rate, this blog has raised a serious question regarding masturbation. If a man masturbates to orgasm, hasn't he then had sex with a man, himself?

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 14, 2007....

  Bit of a stretch lamb and you know it.  By that standard every living human being not only is homosexual, but most males (and I suspect more females than will admit it) have actually had more homosexual encounters than hetero.
   
  In Nam gays by the large were still in the closet, not that I ever feared being kissed I'm just saying that wasn't as relevant a fear at that time.

• mom said on Mar 15, 2007....

  I thought that was an odd thing to say Lamb.

  Sean- I don't think that a persons sexual preferance has anything to do with whether he can fight or be patriotic.  I just feel that our sexual preferences should be left in private.  Don't ask, don't tell.  If a person says he is homosexual and the other guys find out, it could cause problems for everyone.  If it is kept private then none of that has to get in the way of serving their country.  I don't feel it is necessary to scream out that I am hetero.  Nor do I feel it is necessary to get on the "oh whoa is me, I'm gay and treated unfairly" wagon.

• husbandhater said on Mar 15, 2007....

  I can see your point of view mom but since gays have had to shelter and deny who they were for so long maybe the "ability" to say who they are is just as important as screaming it from the roof tops.

• lambovet said on Mar 15, 2007....

  SeanR- A bit of a stretch was exactly the point. Why should it matter at all. If a man asks me to have sex with him my response will be 'no thanks.' Why should it be anything more than that.? I don't care that he or anyone is gay. I know people who steal, but because I know them doesn't mean that I am going to steal. If I see them in the act I will stop them. If a man tries to force himself on me I will stop him. What if any is the difference?

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 15, 2007....

  I wasn't suggesting that gays cannot be patriotic, nor that they couldn't serve in our military well.  I was merely saying that this "problem" wasn't as widespread in your day as it is in mine.
   
  Honestly mom, its a bit naive to believe that 30 guys who shower together, live together, celebrate together and drink together aren't going to know each others sexual preferences.  The don't ask don't tell policy is silly for just that reason, but I cant' devise a better plan so until I do I support that one.

• mom said on Mar 15, 2007....

  HH- the gay lifestyle is not accepted for the most part and I don't agree with it.  I don't want to go out and hurt any gay people or do them harm but I don't want their lifestyle flung in my face either.  Someones sexual preference should not even be an issue in a lot of areas.  I would be offended if I saw that as part of an application.  I am hetero and I would feel that was no ones business. When that question is put in anyway, the battle lines get drawn.

  Sean-You would be surprised the secrets that people can keep if they feel they need to. I dated a guy who was gay and I didn't know it and we stayed best friends for a long time.  I was even engaged to him and never knew he was gay.  We even had sex,  he never told me, it was never brought up. I found out years later.  So yes, people can carry on and no one would ever know.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 15, 2007....

  Some people can, the vast majority of guys in a locker room situation have a hard time keeping anything a secret, especially over a long period of time.  I suppose I shouldn't say that its impossible but in the military the relationships you build are somewhere between family and spouse.  You've see these people naked, they've brought their S/O's around.  They've slept practically ontop of you either because of space issues (anybody in the Navy or who's been on a boat can attest to that) or because it was bloody freezing.
   
  I'm sure that there are plenty of gays in the military that NOBODY knows about, but I think I knew who they were in my unit and I think most people do.  Course I could be wrong.

• mom said on Mar 15, 2007....

  See now Sean, if a gay man can trust his unit and wants to tell them he is gay that is up to him, but as far as a question that is asked as they go into the military, I think it is inappropriate.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 15, 2007....

  I think your misunderstanding the don't ask, don't tell policy.  While it sounds like it applies only/mainly to recruiting (in which situations I 100% agree with you) it actually applies to daily life.  You are not allowed to tell your fellow soldier that you are homosexual, it is a crime under the UCMJ, though I'll be damned if I knew what article, they probably jam it into Article 32? conduct unbefitting.
   
  That is why some people feel that it is damaging to the military because holding something like that inside can/does/could/might cause a rift between you and your fellow soldiers/Marines/Squids/Airmen and thus effects unit cohesion/morale.  These people need to love you like family because when the shit hits the fan you don't want people who are only giving 100% for each other.  You want 1000%, you want guys who are taking bullets for you, jumping on grenades etc, etc.  And some people theorize that because you can't be open you'll be unable to form the proper bonds.
   
  I disagree, since there are guys like you mentioned who are gay,  married and can get it up for sex (doesn't that make them bi?  I can't even get it up for fat chicks much less a guy.  James Marsters and Stuart Townsend aside) that the bonds could be made.  But I think eventually it slips out to enough people that it becomes the 800 pound gorilla in the living room.  Thing is we're all drunk anyway, we're just having a hard time figuring out why this damned gorilla keeps dropping the beers we're handing him.

• mom said on Mar 15, 2007....

  Sean- I guess I did misunderstand.  I fully understand and agree with what you are saying.  The guy I told you about that said he was gay after us being together, claims he always knew that there was something different about him.  I never knew it.  My mom used to accuse him of being gay and I would get so pissed at her for it.  I never understood how we could have such a great sex life if he had been gay all along.  He told me I was the only woman that he had ever considered marrying.  He died a few years back from aids and hepatitus c. I was really sad and I will always love him for the great friend he was to me.

  I think that people need to use tact about their sex life, I have seen some people right off the bat throw out their sexual preference.  LOL  It was like, I wasn't even going to ask.  If a person feels that it would be accepted by his unit then go ahead but I don't think it is a good idea to blurt it out.  If someone is against the lifestyle then they might not be able to form a bond with that person anyway.  So it is a crap shoot.  Always use tact when discusssing things that are considered controversial.

  I wouldn't have a problem working next to a gay or lesbian as long as they didn't let it get in the way.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 15, 2007....

  I agree 100% with the tact thing. 

• mom said on Mar 15, 2007....

  wow we agree on this so now what do you want to debate about?

• ALIENated said on Mar 16, 2007....

  I can say this for satan (no capital S for me, he does not deserve my
  respect), the devil, he is tireless. I could care less about people's sexual
  practices. I just do not want to see them or hear about them. And I
  do not want people using their sexual practices as a political agenda.
  Like passing hate crime laws that limit free speech. If you kill a gay, you
  are guilty of murder. We already have a law for that. Passing special laws
  if just another way of trying to force us to accept something we do not
  believe is right. Plus, people used to go out on the weekend and roll queers.
  What are they supposed to do now?
  

• silverwhisper said on Mar 16, 2007....

  the sad thing, alienated, is that someone is gonna look at your last two sentences and think you aren't kidding.
  
  ed

• agentPit said on Mar 16, 2007....

  lol mom. I'm a homophobia but keep myself openminded and not to discriminate them as well as not to criticize them immoral. If GOD really exist, he is the one to judge.

• mom said on Mar 16, 2007....

  Agent- i don't see you as homophobic, I see Alien as homophobic. LOL 

  Alien- I thought you were serious and I wonder if you aren't somewhat serious.  But I agree with in the sense about special laws.  I don't want to keep debating this issue as my views won't change.

• lambovet said on Mar 16, 2007....

  Sean- made a good point,it might be a generational thing. I remember in basic training we had a blanket party for a guy who kept trying gay (then it was 'queer') advances on people in our training platoon. He was bruised and bloody and had been beaten badly. The commander asked his version of what happened and he was the only one who said the beating came out of the blue. 49 other men said he had been 'queer.' He was thrown out of the army with an honorable discharge. 10 years later I worked with a 'gay' soldier who after a candid discussion with me never tried to be intimate with me. I'll be the first to admit a blanket party is brutal, so...

• mom said on Mar 16, 2007....

  I think that being brutal against anyone is wrong, what I want to know is did he really come on to the guys or did those guys beat him for just being gay?

  I think it has to come down to respect for each other as human beings, sometimes you have to agree to disagree.

• kelly said on Mar 17, 2007....

  It may be a little late to point out but people who say homosexuality is unnatural are completely wrong.
  
  
  Unless, of course, you count nature as unnatural.  This isn't about natural v. unnatural.  This is about some very insecure people lashing out at gay people.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 17, 2007....

  In all fairness kelly the fact that this behavior is exhibited in animals has nothing to do with it being "natural"/prodctive.  I mean cancer is natural too but that hardly makes it right or desireable.

• mom said on Mar 17, 2007....

  Thanks Sean, I wanted to say something but it would have come out nasty.

• kelly said on Mar 17, 2007....

  Sean, yes, I agree. In fact, most things in our daily lives are "unnatural."  I just wanted to clear the air that homosexuality is not "unnatural" and that it is a stupid argument to make.  I'm not the one that was making the argument that homosexuality is bad because it is "unnatural."
  
  
  I stand by my statement that homophobes are simply easily threatened insecure people.

• mobil said on Mar 17, 2007....

  Kelly, anyone ever tell you that you are a jerkoff? If not, I'd be

  happy to be the first, I can't imagine that to be the case though.

• husbandhater said on Mar 17, 2007....

  I'm not sure about insecure,deeply religious, or mislead,maybe the word insensitive might be a better way to think of a person who is a homophobe( either way in they are intitled to their opinions). I can't beleive you guys are still visting this.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 17, 2007....

  Don't worry, I'm only so concerned if somethig I say comes out nasty.  :-P
   
  The argument that homosexuality is unnatural is a logical standpoint.  It is not something that regularly occurs in healthy animals.  From an evolutionary stand point it is a disease of the worst sort, it prevents you (granted we can side step this today) from passing your genes to the next generation.  Homosexuality=death.  They are the same.
   
  The thing is that gays, gay marriage, it has very little to no effect on me.  They aren't raping me, and my genes aren't at risk.  Gays don't hurt me and thus they should be allowed to do what they desire, just like suicide, abortion and drug use (within reason).

• mom said on Mar 17, 2007....

  Go Mobil, Go Mobil!  LOL  I loved it.

  Good points HH and Sean

• kelly said on Mar 17, 2007....

  I must be on target.   :-)

• mom said on Mar 17, 2007....

  That is because you are being that bitchy little woman again. :)

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Interesting manipulation of words that Sean uses to associate being gay with suicide, abortion and drug use.  
  
  
  From an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality may possibly be adaptive and very natural.  How do you know it's not nature's way of limiting population growth when the species gets to a certain density?  Yes, we are simply a gene's way of making more genes, but apparently there is also some emergent behavior since some social traits have evolved that help the group yet are destructive to an individual of that group, such as defending the group with your life.
  
  
  mobil:  Yes, but only by insecure, easily threatened people.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Good counter, thing is that no matter what the population density the same rule should apply (if not more strictly) those more capable of survival survive.  Gays/lesbians literally automatically remove themselves from the gene pool so they are automatic failures.

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Yes, but that was my point about emergent behavior.  That some individuals of the group sometimes pay the price of non-transmission of genes to the greater benefit of the larger group.  I'm sure it's a lot more complicated that anything touched upon in this little discussion, however.  :-)

• mom said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Sean I really agree with you on this.  We have people dying all around us.  Look at how many soldiers we have lost due to this war.  Daily's husband was approached at the park and asked if he wanted to sign up for crying out loud. They have even upped the age that a person can join.  I am scared that they will bring in the draft.  I have 4 boys that would have to go if that happened.  So this population density is such a lame argument

  *kisses* Sean

  Kelly-take a midol

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Ha!  What the heck does a potential draft have to do with any of this?  If you're trying to say that the population of homo sapiens sapiens is about to go extinct you haven't been watching the global population climb from 3.9 billion to 6.6 billion since 1970.

• mom said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Well how does that compare to the deaths?  Also if we started enforcing the death penalty that would help alot.  I did get side tracked a little there, I will admit it.

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  That includes the deaths.  That's total population on the planet at this time.
  
  
  So, before you were saying that my speculation that homosexuality may be a response to crowding was nonsense.  Now you've reversed your position and want to start executing people to take care of the crowding problem?
  
  
  You're a real human being, mom.  And no, that's not a compliment.

• mom said on Mar 18, 2007....

  gee kelly, people seem to think that abortion is great but let's keep the serial killers and those on death rows alive.  I think if they are on death row, why should they sit there for years?  I just don't see the logic to that.

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  You're clouding the original discussion.  My speculation was that homosexuality might be a response to species overcrowding.  Your response was that our species is dying off so you thought that was nonsense.  Your other response was that our species was not dying off fast enough and you thought that killing a few prisoners would help.
  
  
  If you want to change the topic from homosexuality/homophobia to capital punishment that's fine.  Perhaps some other people can join in on that with you.

• mom said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Kelly- I was responding to your response about overcrowding and said that homosexuality might be an answer for it.  I think that there are other ways to reduce the population.  I don't believe our species is dying off to fast.  You are the one that said we are over populated.  I was giving you some other ways to reduce the population if we neededto do that.  Why is it that when someone doesn't agree with homosexuality the imediate response it that they are homophobic?  That would be like me calling you Gay because you disagreed with me.  So anyway before this turns real nasty I am done debating the issue.  You have your own opinions and I respect that, and I am willing to agree to disagree.

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  No, I never said we are overpopulated per se.  I was speculating that perhaps homosexuality was a response to overcrowding of a species.  That is conjecture that perhaps the species itself determines what is overcrowding, not me.
  
  
  Here, I'll throw in a definition of speculate I got through Google:
  talk over conjecturally, or review in an idle or casual way and with an element of doubt or without sufficient reason to reach a conclusion.

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  I forgot to ask HH if she though gay acts between three individuals is OK or not.  Four?  Is it immoral to masturbate and think of someone of the same sex?  These are important ground rules.

• mom said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Well, then I guess I read you wrong. my apologies, now go take your midol and a hot bubble bath

• mobil said on Mar 18, 2007....

  @Kelly, you wouldn't be on target if the target were glued to your ass. I

  believe you to be the finest example of an educated idiot in this forum.

   

  Please send a photograph of yourself holding your degree to those

  folks who create the book of world records.......thanks Kelly

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  That's the difference between you and me, mobil.  I have an education.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 18, 2007....

  While the concept that overpopulation will cause emergent behavior to correct it is interesting, however that would have nothing to do with the world population but rather the population density in any given area.  6 billion people spread out evenly over the world, hell we'd barely be aware of each other.  Now say 1 billion people in India then this behavior (if that theory is relevant) then it should happen more.  The thing is that in humans our behavior tends to lean towards selfish rest of the population be damned.  That's why communism doesn't work, we're selfish and really can't help ourselves.  It would be interesting to look at China and homosexuality though.  Since they both have a high population density and a lack of females due to their habit of drowning/killing/aborting baby girls for cultural reasons.

  As for death row, clear it out I agree though this has nothing to do with anything.

• mobil said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Yes Kelly you have an education, so what's your excuse?

• mom said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Mobil-  LOL  I love it.

  Sean-  I read a story about China and how they dispose of babies, it is really sick, they mainly dispose of females.

• kelly said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Um, excuse for what?  I'm not the one calling you a jerkoff.
  
  
  "it is interesting, however that would have nothing to do with the world population but rather the population density in any given area. "
  
  
  This is pure conjecture.  You don't really know that. You should throw a "probaby" or "I think" in there somewhere.  As far as China, most of the population is crowded against the coasts.  My point wasn't that population density definitely causes emergent homosexual behavior.  My point was merely speculative.  I thought it was an interesting idea given that homosexual behavior occurs in nature.

• mobil said on Mar 18, 2007....

  Kelly, you need to read the post "A Few Cards Short of a Deck"

  There are some sayings there I don't think you'd understand either.

• theobjectionist said on Mar 20, 2007....

  You are homophobic. Those who are homophobic still have a 'homo' in them.

  PS. You are as big of a pile of human garbage as any racist or facist.

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 20, 2007....

  Immoral?  Morality is governed by societies beliefs at a given time.  What is moral today may well have gotten you stoned or beheaded yesterday, or in a given local.
  
  Moral thoughts....are there such things?  Or are they simply common sense spelled differently for different peoples?
  
  Gay people are people...don't you get it? Maybe if you gave a bi-sexual a moment in time you may well learn something....maybe she risked her life recently in Irag?....maybe her morals are not so different than yours and she doesn't apply them in her bedroom as you do yours...but does that make your morals right and hers wrong?  People are a selfish lot and force feeding your morals upon others somehow seems immoral to me.
  
  I enjoy your writing.  Cam
  

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 20, 2007....

  Foolish foolish Cam.  I'm not even going to bother breaking you down, I'll jst call you a fool a move along.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 21, 2007....

  there've been a whole raft of comments here and this conversation really took off while i was taking a bit of a break.
  
  kelly, i'm not sure that homosexuality necessarily needs to serve a biological or evolutionary purpose. there's no advantage in being right or left handed, is there?
  
  ed

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  It was at one time in mankind's history due to the then "moral authority" morally correct to stone to death those believed to be witch's and warlocks.  Perfectly moral, just bash their heads and bodies with stones, better yet, morals improved and roasting human as afore mentioned was more in fashion and thus, a morally sound decision to kill became acceptable.
  
  Muslims think it's morally correct to kill a wife that they "believe"  was untrue to her spouse, and moreover, morally correct to kill children to make a political statement.
  
  Moral judgment is ignorance roaring its evil head above all ...hence moral "majority".  Since most of the United States are not practicing a lifestyle of homosexuality (moral majority) the gays are met with the immoral choice due to the current majority,
  
  Interestingly enough, none of the above has made inclusive the "bi-sexual" human.
  No threat of ending the gene pool in this sector it would appear.
  
  Furthermore, even moral straight men long for a shot at two bi-sexual females at the same time.  But then too, they would be...morally challenged, or, just men being men?  Morals change with social views over time, like the weather.
  
  
  
  

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Moral Judgement is somebody taking a stand and saying this is bad and doint something about it.  It's not ignorance, and its not evil and to even suggest that it is is naive at its best.

  Now of course there are things like you have mentioned that have either changed with the times OR differ between cultures.

  No there was no reason to discuss bi's as we were hypothosizing a theory on how/why homosexuality might occur in nature.

  To answer the last part either A there is nothing morally wrong with homosexuality/bisexuality or B moral "straight" men would not long for this opportunity. 

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  awwww jeepers Sean....I thought the post was...
  
  "I believe Gay acts between 2 individuals is immoral"
  
  Which of course set no guidelines to hypothesize within. Just thought bi-sexuals rightly deserved to be included, but only in theory of course.
  

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  NAIVE:  simple in a childlike or sometimes, foolish way; innocent ;not experienced ; a lack of knowledge.
  
  IGNORANCE : lack of knowledge ; having little or no knowledge : not aware of.
  
  Any common thread between the two Sean?
  
  
  
  

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Of course Sean, Moral Judgment differs from Value Judgment.  I tend to understand moral judgment is categorical, but on my....thats inclusive of the G __D, theory, otherwise its no longer categorical now is it Sean?

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Naiveity is forgivable.  Ignorance is not.

  As for the parameter of the hypothesis your basically right.  No rules were made.  I wasn't criticizing you so much as pointing out that Kelly speculated that homosexuality might arise as a triggered reaction to overpopulation.

  Ok, I'll bite.  Define the difference between a moral and a value.

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  lol ..I can not resist the opening Sean ...are you being ignorant or naive ? (Moral Judgment vs. Value Judgment) Or attempting to set a trap for further discussions?  lol
  

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Wow a fellow warrior. I'm nearly tempted to start calling you an ally/friend.   I might be naive, but I know all that is expected of one in my standing.  Not ignorant.  Still you  skipped my question.

• kelly said on Mar 22, 2007....

  silver: No, I just thought it was an interesting idea.  On the other hand, pretty much anything to do with sex is going to be related to evolution in some way.
  
  
  Here's another interesting thought.  I think Sean pointed out how homosexuality is an evolutionary dead end.  That makes sense.  If that is the case then why does the population maintain a fairly constant proportion of gay people?  Something causes gay-ness and I don't believe it's a lifestyle choice.  That many people would not choose such a castigated and persecuted position. 
  
  
  Additionally, if sexual orientation is a choice that means that somehow most of the population chooses heterosexuality.  Does anyone here remember when they chose to be heterosexual?

• silverwhisper said on Mar 22, 2007....

  kelly: there appears to be a dearth of reliable scientific data as to whether homosexuality is a nature/nurture matter--and believe me, i've looked! having said that, i believe that the kinsey scale is most useful for this purpose.
  
  one explanation i've encountered that i rather like is the notion that homosexuals, being unable to have children biologically, might be possible alternative caregivers for children.
  
  ed

• kelly said on Mar 22, 2007....

  silver: I'm not following you.  Being a caregiver is an explanation for homosexuality?  Clearly I'm not on your thought train here.  I'll take Second Clues for $200, Alex.

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 22, 2007....

  Sean, recall that Moral Judgment is categorical whereas Value Judgment is a assessment (biased opinion) regarding any situation, person(s) or event(s) rather than objective reality.  
  
  Did not skip ur question, simply scoping the terrain...lol  nearly?...lol
  

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 22, 2007....

  Hey Silver...did not American Indians utilize that very method as caregivers to children? 

• Saraiah said on Mar 23, 2007....

  I have better things to worry about.  As I was saying to my mother, "I have no idea why people make such a big deal out of somebody being gay." Oh, and there is a double standard.  It is completely unacceptable for a man to be gay but if a woman is gay, it is idealized.  Men are all over them.  It is fashionable and acceptable to be a lesbian, but wrong to be a gay man.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 23, 2007....

  kelly: my thinking is that raising young is difficult for most species, perhaps moreso for humans. therefore, a homosexual gene (presuming one exists) might serve the species as a whole as a prospective surrogate parent in the case of inability or death of biological parents.
  
  cam: did they? i wasn't aware of that. can you tell me a little more about that?
  
  ed

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 23, 2007....

  Certainly Silver,
  
  I know that as far as the Lakota American Indians were concerned (I re-read the book I recalled above) gays amongst the tribe both males and females alike were considered to be of two spirits.
  
  Males or "winkte" as they were known were placed w/ supportive families as "caregivers" to the children.  These males were viewed as "scared people" being half-man, half-woman and moreover were believed to bring good luck and fortune to the children they oversaw.
  
  Females or "koskalawin" (lesbians) cared for other females of the tribe that experience female problems and these women did not marry and also "adopted" orphaned children of the tribe.  They were however looked upon as either aunts and/or grandmothers to all the children of the tribe.  These women also held high positions in ceremonies of their tribes beside men (warriors) and Winkte.
  
  All native American tribes had both gay males and lesbians within their tribes and in each where held in high esteem in many respects as those of two-spirits  (having both male and female).
  
  The gay men also went with "warriors" on their raids against other tribes and cared for the warriors by minding and cooking.  Winkte (males) were not looked upon any differently than warriors and were accepted simply as not having the willingness to kill.  Gay and lesbian Indians were not discriminated against by their tribes for being of two spirits.
  
  How times and cultures change huh Silver.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 23, 2007....

  Your rather talking in circles but since I don't think your doing in on purpose I'm going to try and cess out what the hell it was you are saying.
   
  Moral judgements

• kelly said on Mar 24, 2007....

  silver: Ah, thank you.  Interesting thought.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 25, 2007....

  cam: thank you, that was very educational and i like it when i learn something new. :>
  
  kelly: my pleasure. it appears based upon cam's last comment that the lakotas had a similar understanding, which i find cool.
  
  ed

• lfbno7 said on Jun 09, 2007....

  I define morality as a proper balance between acting on behalf of yourself and acting on behalf of others.
  
  The Bible is a work of fiction, and Jehovah is a fictional character like Zeus or Sauron, the Lord of the Rings.  Anything that Jehovah, a work of fiction, says, should be completely ignored.  Anyone who quotes the Bible should be completely ignored.  It is nonsense.  You may as well quote Aesop's Fables or the collected works relating to that fat cat who loves lasagna.  The cat makes more sense than Jehovah or his followers.
  
  These misguided people don't know the one and only truth.  Bugs Bunny is God.  Anyone who disbelieves in the deity of Bugs Bunny is an infidel who must be killed.  So saith I.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 09, 2007....

  You're wrong lfbno7.
   
  The Bible is a work of fiction but that doesn't mean that great things can't come out of it.  The ten commandments are pretty much the basis for American Law.  The Good Samaritan is a moral lesson as well.
  I could go on and on. 
   
  I could tell you about the lessons learned from the Tortise and the Hare or the ant and grasshopper. 
   
  Just because something is a work of fiction doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned from it.

• lfbno7 said on Jun 09, 2007....

  ok you got me.  you're right.  i am wrong and you are right.  The good Samaritan is probably a nice enough story, as is the tortoise and the hare.  The problem, of course, is when people give too much credence to the Bible to the point of condemning perfectly healthy homosexuals.  I'm not one myself, and I feel the sexual repulsion to my own sex that can be compared to same-charge magnets repelling each other.  But I've known and worked with homosexuals and I know they're good people who should be allowed to get married and enjoy all the rights the rest of us have.  Why should we be the only ones to suffer through marriage?
  

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 09, 2007....

  I'm not saying that this was a solid thing.  I'm an aetheist and thing that living your life by the Bible is one of the stupidest nd most dangerous things you cand o in life.  I was just pointing out that just because something is a work of fiction doesn't mean per se that no lessons can be learned from its pages. 
   
  I'm pro gay marriage.

• CamDaMan20 said on Jun 15, 2007....

  I think  marriage, like divorce, is a choice, what matters not to me is the combination of either w/ regards to gender.  Just stop shoving some religious material at me that is non-binding worldwide. 
  
  Serious question:  if in fact you do not follow the Bible, but, believe in another God, does that mean the remainder of those outside the Bible's covers are already doomed to this place they refer to as Hell ?  Somehow that does not seem ....well,
  Godly...lol
  
  Cam.
  

• lfbno7 said on Jun 15, 2007....

  sorry cam but i am the world's only true prophet of god and you are all cooked.  All, that is, except for those who obey the lord's commandments as outlined in my earlier post titled Bugs Bunny is god or something just about as stupid, i don't really remember what i called it.
  
  i hate to come on heavy like this, but if you don't want to burn forever in eternal hellfire and brimstone, a word to the wise should be sufficient.
  

• CamDaMan20 said on Jun 16, 2007....

  Damn it...and I just got most this shit paid for to.
  
  Cam.
  

• anonymous said on Nov 25, 2007....

  NOTHING IS WRONG WITH BEING GAY! if you dont accept people, then you are immoral and wrong! if you want poeple to believe in god and love god, then why should we if he doesnt accept poeple who are gay, people who are different then him? poeple use to believe that women were not as importent or as good as men, but that is wrong, because we are ALL equal, no matter who you are you are human, and everyone who has a problem with you is the one with the problem! i personally am my own person and believe in my own opinions, i do not follow the bible, or any other person i BELIEVE everyone in this world is equal, if you poeple say that i will burn in hell if i dont believe in god or in his beliefs THEN SO BE IT! i would rather live the only life i have the right way then burn in hell when i am already dead! there is absaloutly no reason for you to not accept people! i can only ask why! what if one day i decided that you were wrong, you didnt deserve to be on this earth just because of your skin, race, gender or somthing stupid like that! what would you do, well you wouldnt be able to do anythign! thats how poeple feel when you dont accept them, some feel helpless, some poeple were murdered! if you remeber HITLER, i say anyone who does not accept somone just because of who they are then you are a group of mini-hitlers, waiting to destroy your next victom because you can, or because somone told you it was wrong to be who they are! i am still young, but with a stronger voice then all of you

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 25, 2007....

  You're wrong.  And dumb.  Good job regurgitating PC crap though.

• lfbno7 said on Nov 26, 2007....

  Jehovah gets pissed when he sees you homos playing with each other's weewees. He hits your ass with a lightning bolt. Damn I'm glad I never mistook some guy's weewee for a lollipop. Repeat your mantra - pussy is good, pussy is good. It's cozy and warm, a perfect fit. Oh never mind, go fuck each other, what do I care.

• silverwhisper said on Nov 26, 2007....

  sean: what precisely was wrong w/ what anonymous had to say?
  
  lbf: for some reason, i always thought you were jewish. reading your comment however, i suppose i must've been mistaken.
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 26, 2007....

  If you dont accept people, then you are immoral and wrong!

  I don't accept ALIEN nor D6 for the way they think and behave.  For that matter you spend enough time educating them that I can say that neither do you.

  I can go on and tear it down further but I take great offense at anybody who claims that we are all equal because we are human beings and not because of our actions.  Be it Christian or otherwise anybody who claims that criminals can be considered my equal can fuck right off.

  Also anons are to be jeered on principle alone.

• silverwhisper said on Nov 26, 2007....

  ah. OK, fair enough. :> anon had a lot to say, and i wanted to be sure i knew what you meant.
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 26, 2007....

  What's worse is that sans a few extreme people (I'm cool with Truthsayer but he might mean it) I don't think anybody really truly believes that Mother Teresa is equal to Charles Manson.  We're just told to spit out that tired rhetoric.

• silverwhisper said on Nov 26, 2007....

  yeah, that meme's about as tired as the black helicopters one.
  
  ed

• lfbno7 said on Nov 26, 2007....

  SW, I'm racially Jewish. I come from a Jewish gene pool. I don't believe in the Jewish religion though. I don't believe in Jehovah, Noah, Adam and Stevie, and all that.

• silverwhisper said on Nov 26, 2007....

  ah...thank you.
  
  ed

• anonymous said on Nov 28, 2007....

  just to clairfy my answer, once again we are all equal even criminals, even when poeple make bad choices in life, we are still all equal,
  i am not defending criminals or anyone who does bad things i am just trying to make you understand, that no on shouold be judged before they have done somthing wrong
  and by saying somone who is gay is wrong
  you are judging them before you know them

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 28, 2007....

  While I agree with that statement, in that exact context.  That is only because I don't believe that being gay is wrong.  If know you are a Gang Member, Drug Dealer, etc I feel quite confident in judging you without meeting you.  I don't need to meet you to know that you are scum.

  Once you've gone to jail and served your time we'll talk.  You'll likely never be an equal in my opinion but I'm more than willing to give you a shot at that point.  But no people who make bad choices are not the equals of those who make good decisions and to teach otherwise is irresponsible.

• anonymous said on Nov 29, 2007....

  How can you support "gay marriage" and say gay sex is okay? It's beyond disgusting. We all know that it's wrong and immoral. It's just SICK. If America wasn't so tolerant of such depravity their soldiers wouldn't be dying off in droves like they are. How the can you say it's dandy for men to screw other men and for women to screw other women?? It's not natural and it goes completely against God's design! Men were meant to be with women and vice-versa. This is just vile - so very, very vile.

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 29, 2007....

  See why I bash anons without really reading what they say?

  Just remember guys everytime a a man sucks cock God kills one of our soldiers.

• silverwhisper said on Nov 29, 2007....

  anonymous, ignorance is what's really disgusting. and you reek of it. have a pleasant existence. :>
  
  ed

• lfbno7 said on Nov 29, 2007....

  Every time someone in America farts, a squirrel gets run over by a car. So don't do it. When I was a Little League baseball coach I'd tell the kids that every time they played catch and dropped the ball, a little doggie died. You know, the kids know you're playing and they know you're full of shit, but still they tried harder to save the poor doggie.

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 29, 2007....

  Do you have any ideas how many kittens I've slaughtered?

• sammies_place said on Aug 20, 2008....

  Wow.

• one_wired_kitty said on Aug 20, 2008....

  Remember - every time you masturbate, a kitten dies.

  Anyhow ... While I don't agree with the guy-on-guy or girl-on-girl thing ... I'm in no place to throw stones. My house has enough glass. I say let them marry. Straight people have fucked up marriage enough as it is. I dont' see how gays could make it any worse.

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 20, 2008....

  Oh teh noes!  The kitties!  I've killed an entire litter this week alone!

• anonymous said on Nov 21, 2008....

  Homosexuality isn't natural, normal or productive to the continuation of the species.

• one_wired_kitty said on Nov 21, 2008....

  Anon ... get bent.

  While I may agree that it's not natural for men to butthump (woman-on-woman is counted), I have no right to hate them as a christian.

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