• Tappa said on Mar 11, 2007....

  The abuses you mentioned (rape, torture) are perpetrated not by the system but by other inmates mainly. I believe the prison system has to be made responsible for inmate safety.
  However, I don't believe an inmate for any crime should be allowed conjugal rights, unchecked gifts, cell phones, unchecked mail inwards or outwards, free Internet access. Violent criminals should not be allowed parole.
  All inmates should be educated - literacy and numeracy including money management, sociology, political studies, and health including mental health. They should be given enough information about potential consequences of unsocial behaviour that they will have no excuse - legal or moral - for re-offending. They should also be able to access classes in handcrafts or art, to give them other channels of self expression.
  They should be working to assist the management of the prison (laundry, catering or site cleaning) or in skills that will give them a trade later on - carpentry, auto mechanics, or such.

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 11, 2007....

  HH:  Tent City Arizona...IMO, The right way!
  I'm sure the prisoners like being outside, but the summer must really bother them!
  I've seen the chain gang wearing pink and white stripes doing work along the highway, they were all MEN!
  Here's a very brief description of what the Sherrif does with these prisoners:
  http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/miracopjail.htm

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 11, 2007....

  @Tappa:  The fact that we KNOW these things are done in the system means we could protect these individuals if we so desired.
   
  All inmates should educated, I agree there but more than that theyshould be put to work.  Just education isn't enough in our current world.  They cannot get out of the system becaue that mistake has to go on their resume and pretty much prevents them from getting any job.  Hell up until recently (I'm guessing it changed or will change shortly) even getting into the military with a record was difficult.
   
  We need to offer a path to redemption.  I've read up o Tent city, idon't know why that idea hasn't caught on.

• momsrock said on Mar 11, 2007....

  HH,  I read the link that Daily posted and I'd have to agree!

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 11, 2007....

  Some critics would say that Tent City is almost like freedom because they're outside ALL the time.  They don't mention the 120+ temps in the summer, when you CAN fry an egg on the sidewalks.  You can smell the rubber soles on your sneakers on the sidewalks and often find it difficult to walk on pavement at all in the summer when your shoes stick to the ground!  Oh, I'm sure monsoon season isn't much fun either.  Dust kicking up in there tents, messing up their cots and their tents just blowing around.  I'm sure it's a great show to stand outside tent city when there's a microburst!
   
  It sucked for me, having to just leave my door to go outside during the summer in Arizona.  I would run to my a/c'd car.  I think they're right where they belong there!
   
  Daily

• Tappa said on Mar 12, 2007....

  We've heard of Tent City (here in NZ). Many NZers totally approve.
  I have to ask - there's no Winter in Arizona?
  Winter is the main reason why it could not be done here...
  inmates would/could literally Freeze to death - assuming it was sited in the more woe-begotten holes! LOL - can't see many wanting one in the city; the NIMBY attitude. Our desert area is a high mountain desert and gets snowed out well and truly. Pity - I can see it would work for some.
   
  Otherwise, we make do with stone-walled fortresses (old prisons in city areas) or barbed wire and concrete walls.
   
  We have real tough nuts in our prisons - they bring their gang culture in with them. Use their cell phones to make drug deals and set up guards for smugggling in stuff, arrange "hits" on outsiders. Use their computer connections to do the same.
  Watch porn on SKY in their cell TVs... Holiday camp, more like.
  <Admission - not all; just sll the ones that make the news>
  Neither inmates nor guards are safe from violence. We've had some horrific news stories here.
   
  I keep reminding myself - for every b******d that makes the news, there are thousands more who get on with their peacable lives and cause no trouble! Blessings on them...

• mom said on Mar 12, 2007....

  HH- since I have had a son in prison, I can look at things from more than one side.  I never caudled my son for getting what he deserved.  I never once believed he was innocent and felt he should take what was coming to him but as a mother I was terrified for his safety.  It is true he came close to getting raped a few times and getting beat up and who knows what else.  He didn't tell me everything.  Even as afraid as what I was for his life from a mothers point of view, I feel that too many times criminals get off too easy in prison.  They should be made to pay for their crimes and not make their stay like a day at DisneyLand. I am still for hard labor,  I agree with what Tappa also said.  Education is very important. 

• Muckraker said on Mar 12, 2007....

  In our contitutional system, all alleged criminals are entitiled to due process guaranteed by the 14th Amendment no matter how distasteful their alleged crime.  If convicted they are to be afforded basic human rights while incarcerated.  I don't mean a motel like room, but a clean, sanitary cell with some exercise during the day.  They should also be protected from each other by the prision's security personnel.

• shiningstar said on Mar 12, 2007....

  I think it all changes when a prisoner is one of your own,  your son,  your daughter, your family.  Consciousness is not changed by consequenses.  In other words threatening people or  punishing them has not worked and I do not see that it ever will work.  If we could take care of the problem before it grew into a bigger problem we would not need jails.  But we have created a society based for might equals right from the cradle to the grave.  Parents often do not allow their children to just be who they are and creat feelings of unworthiness,  guilt and emotional pain. Children often leave home and live on the streets rather than be with people who make them feel so miserable. If we choose to place people/prisoners in places where they only learn more pain and suffering we only make things worse. We do not teach respect or commonality by being disrespectful and placing them outside the ring of humanity seeing them as the "bad" and others as the"good".

• silverwhisper said on Mar 12, 2007....

  how many of you would be so interested in harsh treatment were a loved one wrongly convicted?
  
  ed

• beyondtheveil said on Mar 12, 2007....

  I have always found it difficult to understand why prison systems cannot protect prisoners.

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 12, 2007....

  Ed:  If that were the case, I would contact the Innocence Project to have them review the case.  http://www.innocenceproject.org/
   
  Daily

• husbandhater said on Mar 12, 2007....

  Had 1 wrongly convicted before. Not a fun prospect! Innocence project only handels DNA cases.
  BTE: The prison system is much like nursing. 20 inmates or more to maybe every 1-2 Guards. ANd alot of people want to do their 8hrs and go home. ANd I also think that most of the guards begin to view them as animals or less(Which is not right)

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 12, 2007....

  HH:  You're right and I totally forgot to mention that!
   
  Thanks!
  Daily

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 12, 2007....

  While there are wrongly convicted people the vast majority of people in prison are there because they did something to deserve it. While I would be upset if a loved on, or myself were wrongly accused and received harsh treatment that hardly changes the fact that the 90 guys around me deserve what they get. 
   
  Yeah I do view most criminals as animals.  Its what they are.  Theives, murderers, rapists, drug dealers, gang members.  They are in there for crimes they committed we seem to be starting to forget that.
   
  Now we do need more gaurds, and we need to raise the incentives for it.  I know here in California they were making a big deal about how being on gaurd duty is one of those shit jobs for Sheriffs, you know nobody wants to do it.  Well we need to figure out away to make people want to do it.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 12, 2007....

  sean: so in your estimation, if you're wrongly convicted, you're SOL? don't you think there's maybe a risk that by putting criminals into rotten conditions that all you do is set them up to reoffend upon serving their term?
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 12, 2007....

  If your wrongly convicted it sucks to be you.  Yeah.  I'm all for improving the legal system to minimize the amount of innocent people in prison.  I just think that its a piss poor argument to say that prisoners should be treated well because some of them might be innocent.
   
  I have stated several times, in this blog that we need to figure out a way to get criminals a new start so they don't reoffend.  Making certain that prison is worse than life on the streets can only contribute to that.  The fact that they eat better than our military is completely fucked.
   
  Half of he rotten conditions that occur are because of the inmates anyway.  The gaurds aren't (by the large) raping, or killing the inmates.  (I'm sure there is an occasional beatdown)  The inmates are.   So how we fix that aside from what we are already doing, identifying at risk inmates and separating them from the general populace. 
   
  Hell we need to just double or triple the amount of prisons we have for starters.

• NobodySpecial said on Mar 12, 2007....

  If you make prison to bad people who are going to commit crimes either way are just going to fight that much harder, take more drastic measures, to be sure they don't go there.

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 12, 2007....

  Hopefully amongst the measures they take is to not commit crimes.
   
  If we keep feeding them well and putting a roof over their heads and making life better in prison then outside only encourages them.  We need to find a medium.  Course that tent city guy is my hero.

• husbandhater said on Mar 12, 2007....

  Sean How much do corrections make out in Cali. Here in NY they are paid very well. Were talking more than the police cadets. City is almost 40's and the state is almost 50's!

• kelly said on Mar 13, 2007....

  "Hell we need to just double or triple the amount of prisons we have for starters."
  
  
  I haven't researched this, but perhaps it's time to take a look at what we're incarcerating people for to begin with.  Yes, I'd prefer to keep the violent offenders behind bars, but I have the sneaking suspicion that there are a lot of petty thieves doing time because of three strikes.
  
  
  And back to the topic, jail is not a retreat.  By definition being in prison means you've lost some of your rights.  I can't believe that prisoners can have cell phones.  At the same time I'm disgusted by the authority's inability to provide for a humane environment. 

• silverwhisper said on Mar 13, 2007....

  kelly: actually, i recall reading an article or two in which judges hate the sentencing guidelines that mandate jail time. that all by itself has probably swollen prison populations in no small measure.
  
  ed

• shiningstar said on Mar 13, 2007....

  Mandated sentences means that the judge cannot take into consideration the circumstances surrounding the defendent or the so called crime.  So a 99 yr old ladystealing a loaf of bread because she is hungry can get the same sentense as the bank robber(unless,  of course it is a white collar crime where retribution does not appear to exist).  If my son or daughter did a crime I would like to think that they were helped by the system and caring,  compassionate people put him on a higher path that would work for him to make him healthy and happy.  Instead the system takes away all shreds of humanity  dehumanizes,  creates a senario whereas all people ever involved with this person must know of their crime,   judge them and stay away from them.  Hense no one hires them so they cannot make a living.  The "good"  people will not be caught dead with them and they return to those that are caught in the same boat that they are and grow in more crime until they return to prison.

• Tappa said on Mar 13, 2007....

  Kelly, hi,
   
  Prisoner's visitors smuggle in th' cell phones mostly. Sometimes a prisoner can put in a sob story and be officially allowed one to keep in contact with family (like, that's the only calls they make - right?) if there are special circumstances.
   
  HH - good debate going on here! 8-)

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 13, 2007....

  Honestly I don't know how much they make.  I remember it bein on the news a couple months ago that its not enough to entice people out here to do it.  40k isn't enough to really live in Cali though.
   
  Even if they are snuck in they should be found and taken away.  Though to be honest I'm amazed they get reception with all that steal and concrete.

• shiningstar said on Mar 13, 2007....

  Prisons have become big business.  Those were run them are multinationals that are listed on Wall Street.  They are only out for profit. When profit is derived from human suffering we all pay the price. As long as it pays more prisons will be built and more people will be put into them to feed the system.  When the people become so over taxed for paying for new and old prisons alike they will perhaps find a better way to deal with people who for whatever reason cannot function in what society deems an acceptable way. There are better ways to heal people as has been  proven that are far cheaper because it lowers the rate of returns to prisons.. But since the public thinks that t punishment is better than learning better ways to deal with problems the systems keeps rolling on.

• shiningstar said on Mar 15, 2007....

  By the way I read a very hard to read book titles "The Trance Formation of America" written by a woman raised by our government as a sex slave.  She documents her story and gives names,  places and events that make one wonder about the morals of our government and it's use of any tool it can get or create to make it's self superior to all others and take away the American peoples way  of life and freedoms.---Also Gerry Spence,  the WY lawyer who explains in his book "Freedom To Slavery"  how we have turned our government over to a bunch of pure criminals.

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 20, 2007....

  Sean needs to go to prison and voice some of the shit he writes on here...lol.  Sean needs to have his rights stomped on and his ass reamed by the system he calls justice to better understand "human warehousing".
  
  Prison would be fine if the incarcerated were in fact incarcerated for rehabilitation rather than to be traded on the stock market.  There is Gold in dar hills, and its called inmates or residents.
  
  Yes, we need prisons, and some deserve to stay their entire life there.  However, what we do not need is "more human warehouses".  We already have plenty of prisons, what we need to do is use the cells we got for the corrupted politicians, the crooked cops,  the Priest who suck on lil-boi's, murders, rapist ect...violent felony offenders.
  
  What we do not need is to house non-violent offenders....Marijuana Possession/sales, dead-beat dads/moms, forgeries and the like.  These people may be victims of a corrupted system, and may well be no better than that friggin liar Bush, who hides all his wrongs within his office behind a shield of immunity like most law enforcement types.
  
  I do not support big brother due to the hypocrites who administer our judicial system.
  
  Yea, I'd love to see Sean do a few years in Attica here in New York and better yet, be in the cell next to him to watch what happens to him when he runs his mouth in there by both inmate and correctional guards (who suffer high divorce rates for abuse to their own family members)...yea Sean...that would be a different story coming from your lips...but like most punks who run their mouth, they never did a day in their lives and therefore know not what they speak of.  Sean is simply another conservative piece of shit that patronizes most he runs across, but he don't fool me.
  

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 20, 2007....

  PS:  Over 50 % of inmates today are in fact veterans, you talk like a man with a paper ass Sean.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 21, 2007....

  cam, what's your problem with sean, man?
  
  ed

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Sean always likes to fuel controversy with some of the rudest comments towards women and the civil rights of others.
  
  While these may strike conversation, I find his views to be based upon non-experience.  He speaks upon matters he has never experienced and takes the position that the rights of others are something to be trodden upon.
  
  I am a Veteran. I respect the civil rights of others whether they are free in our society or incarcerated without of society.
  
  Furthermore, Sean indicates above that"40 K isn't enough to live in California".  Thats utter nonsense as 10's of thousands live and work in California making far less than 40K a year including the work force of illegal immigrants residing in California.
  
  In addition thereto, I work as a paralegal and prepare numerous post conviction applicable appeals. As a direct result of my work, I visit numerous State Correctional Facilities throughout New York State and know the loss to our society as incidental to non-violent felony offenders and long term incarceration.
  
  I could go on, but it would be redundant.
   

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Its nice to meet the new resident fuckhead.  Normally I'm polite and conversational but Cam is an idiot and I strongly believe that when you talk to an idiot as if he were your equal you give credence to his argument that wasn't there before.
   
  First off half of what you've said I've said, in this very blog cam.  That the penal system needs to be
  improved so that we can get these people off the streets and give them opportunities.  I understand and agree with that and if you read my posts you'd know that.  I'm sorry that I, and most of the non criminals in America (which obviously doesn't include you) are tired of hearing how prisoners have cell phones, access to television, aren't working and instead are making contacts with other criminals that just make them better criminals when they get out.
   
  As for you I'm impressed, veteran/criminal/paralegal.  You must be a criminal since in order for you to talk about how I have no experience as a man behind bars that you must.
   
  Finally I fucking tired of you goddamn Vietnam Vets talking down to me like your better. Its not my fault that I wasn't born back then, its not my fault you were drafted.  Its not my fault that my war was/is "easier/safer" than your war.  I'm a veteran too so fuck right off.  Besides being a Veteran doesn't make you or I any better than anybody else on this board, which you have implied by bringing it up when it has little or no bearing on the conversation at hand.

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Not a criminal Sean...just an experienced person as a paralegal that deals daily with the in excess of a Million Americans currently incarcerated. We incarcerate more people than any other country in the friggin WORLD Sean.
  
  So what your a Marine...I too was a Marine, except I was paying attention to the Honor part of a Marine.  No Marine is taught to attack women as you do in your post.
  
  No Veteran is better than the other.  I simply state I am a Vet and proud of serving, there is no draft you dip shit.
  
  I speak of you having no experience "behind bars" simply because you write as one with little to no actual experience of what it is to be incarcerated or the wows associated with a life long sentence of a "criminal record" irregardless of the fact that you may have been denied your liberty for a non-violent offense.  The record never leaves, expunge is non-existent.
  
  And, what is polite about your indication that some "women deserve to be raped"?
  I' ve read your post, and quiet as its kept, most of what you say is self-gratification from being noticed, not content.
  
  So, I have to be labled a "resident fuckhead"...by you. 
  
  And, by the way, being a Vet has everything in context with this post seeing how the majority of those locked away are in fact Vets.  Chew on the facts Sean...your bothers in Arms are in fact criminals according to a society that has turned its back for the most part on those of us has chosen to serve, and many Vets are currently "serving" once again, as inmates.
  
  There are no cellphones allowed to inmates in NY State, no televisions in their cells, and any and all calls or visits to prisons in NY are in fact under constant monitoring.  Conjugal visits...that may happen in California, but not here in NY Maximum facilities.
  
  There also is no smoking allowed to inmates of NY.
  
  If your going on the attack Sean, know what the hell your talking about instead of ranting like a crack head with absolutely no knowledge of what in hell your speaking upon, plain and simple.
  
  
  

• silverwhisper said on Mar 21, 2007....

  cam: if you read that blog entry, sean stated that no, he doesn't believe women deserve to be raped.
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Who cares about the rest of the world?  We have one of the larger populations, oh yeah and we don't cane people instead of prison time.  Oh wait and we let people have guns.  To some extent our higher crime rate is a side effect of our freedoms, one that most of us re more than willing to deal with.
   
  And no you were still stretching there to find an excuse to boast about being a vet.  I could post.  Fact: 1/3 of blacks between 25-29 are at some stage of the penal system.  I am in fact a black man in that age group.  It has nothing to do with how these people are or should be treated.
   
  I never claimed to be polite ALL the time, I said most of the time asshole.

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Sean said a lot in that post, but he also said he has no pity for those that are raped, and raped repeatedly.  Obviously it was written to start conversation, but I read the post as nothing but a "SEED" to be planted in some very sick minds in society today.
  
  I am not saying that Sean is an asshole or anything of the like, in fact I never called him a name whatsoever, he did however coin me as "resident fuckhead".  Why, because I happened to disagree with his uninformed position on a particular subject, thats all.
  
  Moreover, inmates in NY Maximum facilities eat what is called loaf meals.  Meaning that the entire 3 meals a day are mixed in a vat as one, mixed with flour and baked into loaves and delivered to their cells.  Sounds yummy does it not.
  
  As to being coddled, the inmates that are "allowed" to attend a work program in NY are worked long hours for about .35 cents "a-day" for the most part.  This includes working the farms that feed most of them, or in the prison factories that produce top grade furniture for the social professionals offices.....its being traded on the friggin stock market for christ sakes.
  
  New York like every State that has made incarceration "big business" makes money on the incarcerated and in fact its prisons are located in cities and towns where they are in fact the major provider of jobs and monies that pour into their communities.  Prisons are in fact an economic boost to most areas they are built in, like a damned Walmart.
  
  I do not support criminal behavior, I do not support coddling of criminals, but I do support efforts to prevent the conservative right wing agenda that uses Americans in the judicial system as a means of hidden slave labor.
  
  You want to help the judicial system Sean, get educated about it first.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 21, 2007....

  First things first, does Soulcast routinely trim everybodies comments or is it just mine?

  Sean said a lot in that post, but he also said he has no pity for those that are raped, and raped repeatedly.  Obviously it was written to start conversation, but I read the post as nothing but a "SEED" to be planted in some very sick minds in society today.
  
  Wow, talk about out of context but still, its not a lie, nor is is a conversation that needs repeating least of all here.

  I am not saying that Sean is an asshole or anything of the like, in fact I never called him a name whatsoever, he did however coin me as "resident fuckhead".  Why, because I happened to disagree with his uninformed position on a particular subject, thats all.

  "Sean needs to go to prison and voice some of the shit he writes on here...lol.  Sean needs to have his rights stomped on and his ass reamed by the system he calls justice to better understand "human warehousing"."  Quoted from Cam 13 hours ago.
  
  
  You're right, you didn't call me an asshole, you said I should go to jail and be beaten and raped?  Why am I so stupid that I can't see how declaring somebody "Resident Fuckhead" and name calling is equal to or worse than saying someone should be beaten? 

  As to being coddled, the inmates that are "allowed" to attend a work program in NY are worked long hours for about .35 cents "a-day" for the most part.  This includes working the farms that feed most of them, or in the prison factories that produce top grade furniture for the social professionals offices.....its being traded on the friggin stock market for christ sakes.
  
  My only problem with this is that they don't get work experience and contacts out of it.  But what would you suggest as a superior way?

  New York like every State that has made incarceration "big business" makes money on the incarcerated and in fact its prisons are located in cities and towns where they are in fact the major provider of jobs and monies that pour into their communities.  Prisons are in fact an economic boost to most areas they are built in, like a damned Walmart.
  
  Ok, anything that big put into a neighborhood is a boost to bussiness.  A Marine base, a prison, a wal-mart.  Anything that provides mass jobs is going to help the local economy.  Hell over here in California we likely to start freeing prisoners because we are overcrowded, so maybe it isn't big bussiness enough out here.

  I do not support criminal behavior, I do not support coddling of criminals, but I do support efforts to prevent the conservative right wing agenda that uses Americans in the judicial system as a means of hidden slave labor.
  
  Constitutionally there is no reason to hide it.  Slavery not illegal really.  Hell that said I actually support the outright use of them as slavery.  I would call it a forced internship but it would be the same, save that in order for a company to get access to them they would have to be willing to hire them once they were freed, or have a damn good reason why they didn't.

  You want to help the judicial system Sean, get educated about it first.
  

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Nice try Sean...but what goes around comes around.  I would rather enjoy seeing your reaction to a prison cell, and in fact if your were raped perhaps we wouldn't see you out here talking about rape in such a detrimental fashion as applied towards women.
  
  Now you want to play the race card...your late Sean, you had a whole friggin Month to cry about your race, that was February was it not?
  
  I do not care what your race is, in fact, whether your a black man , a purple man or jolly green giant, I do not support the enslavement of any given person on earth.
  
  The fact their is a disproportionment  of Blacks incarcerated.  This is no secrete, especially to blacks...thus, my question....why then do blacks continue to place themselves in a criminal light so readily knowing they will be the target of any investigation instigated?  Sounds like a control problem, not a race problem.
  
  Kinda glad you jumped in here Sean, at least the controversy  surrounding "misinformation" and  the outrageous number of Americans being  incarcerated  for  a break down of social programing that produces  big brothers  business of incarcerating its citizens at the whims of politicians.
  
  Like I said, get educated about it is all Sean, and try being a little less disrespectful of the plights of others simply because you enjoy the freedom to do so. 
  

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Are you trying to make this easy?

  Nice try Sean...but what goes around comes around.  I would rather enjoy seeing your reaction to a prison cell, and in fact if your were raped perhaps we wouldn't see you out here talking about rape in such a detrimental fashion as applied towards women.
  
  See again with the wishing ill on me being equal or greater than my calling you fuckhead, fuckhead.  Gods this is like shooting fish in a barrel, if your next response isn't better I'm just gonna ignore you cus this is boring.  You right, if I were raped I would never want to know if there was a way to prevent it from happening to myself again or others for a first time.  If you want to fight that battle there is a blog for it Cam.  Quit trying to bringup other issues here.

  Now you want to play the race card...your late Sean, you had a whole friggin Month to cry about your race, that was February was it not?
  
  Wow, could you have made a more racist statement?  Probably, lets read on.  Oh wait he said he doesn't care what my race is, has a black friend that autoatically erases all the rest of this don't it?

  I do not care what your race is, in fact, whether your a black man , a purple man or jolly green giant, I do not support the enslavement of any given person on earth.
  
  The fact their is a disproportionment  of Blacks incarcerated.  This is no secrete, especially to blacks...thus, my question....why then do blacks continue to place themselves in a criminal light so readily knowing they will be the target of any investigation instigated?  Sounds like a control problem, not a race problem.
  
  No matter how well you dress it up you just said blacks are criminals.  I hope I'm not the only person who sees this.  Of course I said that just to point out that like your I"m a veteran statement it had no bearing no the discussion at hand. 

  Kinda glad you jumped in here Sean, at least the controversy  surrounding "misinformation" and  the outrageous number of Americans being  incarcerated  for  a break down of social programing that produces  big brothers  business of incarcerating its citizens at the whims of politicians.
  
  So which is it?  Are blacks out of control criminals, or easy targets for big brother bussiness?  Or is it a little of both?

  Like I said, get educated about it is all Sean, and try being a little less disrespectful of the plights of others simply because you enjoy the freedom to do so. 

  I don't deny that I should learn MORE about the penal system and how it works.  However much of what needs to be done/should be done is common sense.  As for disrespectful to others, I'd rather hurt some feelings that use the technique you seem to advocate.  Head in the sand.

• CamDaMan20 said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Head in sand?  Did you catch one on the bean while you were deployed?
  
  I have probably helped more inmates "gain" back their constitutional rights as Americans than you perhaps ever will Sean.  Thats not a head in the sand approach, its getting dirty and doing the work necessary to stand up for our constitutional rights by protecting others who have had them stripped away. By protecting the constitutional rights of those incarcerated I enforce those very constitutional rights we enjoy as free citizens.
  
  Paint me with whatever paint brush you chose Sean, the bottom line is communication, yes, even poor communication, is better than no communication whatsoever.
  
  You brought up the fact that you were a "Black Man"...I had no idea of your race until you decided to enlighten me.  But simply being a Black man gave you little insight by merely being black yourself, now did it?
  
  Never said all blacks by being black made them somehow more likely to be criminals.  " I said"....nothing like that whatsoever.
  
  As to making incarceration more accountable to both the judicial system and the incarcerated alike, its not going to happen as long as State's can profit from it.
  
  Inmates do get education here in NY.  Inmates do get trades, they do the body work and spray painting of all State Vehicles, State Trooper vehicles included at .35 cents a day, not a car.
  
  They run machinery in an industrial sitting.  They run print shops and the equipment, they maintain the equipment.
  
  The problem of training is not the problem at all.  It is in fact social standards applicable once the incarcerated are no longer incarcerated.  These men and women may not be in a cell once released, but they are forever "incarcerated by means of their respective criminal records".for life.  Meaning, they never stop doing their time, irrespective their crime, irregardless of its "non-violent" status.
  
  Its no so much the system of incarceration by our judicial system, while I fully agree it is as corrupt as those incarcerated within its belly.  It remains, "SOCIAL STANDARDS" that fail.  Todays employers are allowed to discriminate against any person who has suffered through his or her mistakes via incarceration and has "allegedly" paid for their infraction(s).  Yet, these individuals will continue to pay for their errors of past because society allows for "civil" discrimination against those who were unfortunate enough to have been the one that got caught, while millions of other Americans due to social status, political affiliation  or just got away continue to enjoy the ability to  seek and obtain gainful employment.
  
  Talk about discrimination, every friggin store you shop in discriminates against anyone  who was unlucky enough to be arrested, let alone convicted.
  
  Every business you support with your purchases openly discriminates against all those ever arrested.  Just read any job application.
  
  Those with crimes against children, rape, terrorist, hate crimes, and violent assaults w/ weapons, deserve nothing resembling the freedom of job advancement.
  
  However, these are not by far the majority of those incarcerated for non-violent crimes.  Easy targets...the working poor, the poor, the young.  95% of those incarcerated never earned 20 K a year in their lives, or given that opportunity either.
  
  I do not have all the answer, but I know the reasons, and society has to change its views before the prison system ever will.
  
  
  
  
  

• SeanRenaud said on Mar 21, 2007....

  Nice recovery.
   
  But you just longwinded what I've been saying. Its not the training it's the opportunity.  Its the loop, its the lack of contacts etc etc etc.
   
  And as a bussiness owner you should be allowed to, if no encouraged to discriminate.

• anonymous said on Apr 29, 2007....

  Admission of Guit check it out at http://www.lulu.com/content/543248

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 29, 2007....

  Honest question. 
   
  Who here would go out of their way to shop at a store/restaurant etc that went ou of their way to employ ex-cons?

• darkshadows said on Apr 29, 2007....

  I would.  I worked at a prison for ten years and I believe in rehabilitation.  If I didn't, I coudn't have survived.  Contrary to popular belief, about 50 percent (maybe a bit less) do their time and then get on with life becoming productive, law-abiding citizens who make significant contributions to society.  C.M. Jourdan

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 29, 2007....

  Define significant.  I highly doubt that 50% (maybe a bit less) of college grads make significant contributions to society.

• darkshadows said on Apr 30, 2007....

  Okay, I'll admit, I may define significant more loosely than others, but I do believe that if a person, comes out, gets a job, takes care of his/her family, then they are making a significant contribution to society. It is significant for them and us for them to NOT be engaged in created chaos, victims and more crime.  C. M. Jourdan

• SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2007....

  Loose definition, but I was just saying I have a hard time believing 50% of any group make significant contibutions.
   
  However that is one person, it would take more than just you to inspire me to open a bussiness that would go out of its way to recruit ex-cons.

• CamDaMan20 said on May 01, 2007....

  However, you are but one person and no one would need your investment/contribution since it would be dogtrotted to begin with.  You sir, are very prejudice against most other walks of life I am finding from your writings, excepting of your own, which I do not find as a surprise.
  
  Cam.  

• SeanRenaud said on May 01, 2007....

  Bravo, you can tell that I'm just one person.  Like all inteligent people I am prejudice against ALL walks of life that are detrimental to my own.  Live and let live, if you aren't bothering/hurting me I'll let you go. If you can find ONE post I've made that shows me being against a group, race, religion, activity  that doesn't directly effect me (or in the case of children may soon) effect me I'll post an apology.  Until then, STFU.

• CamDaMan20 said on May 01, 2007....

  Self centered rhetoric...it so becomes you.
  
  Bite me and take lock jaw.
  
  Cam. 

• shiningstar said on May 01, 2007....

  Wow some kind of posts on this subject.  I lean more towards what Tappa orginally said.  The programs that I have seen work are the ones where those being helped have input into their programs.  Perhaps if the prisoners could become part of the staff on levels of merit they could receive on the job ,job training,  receive pay, design programs to help each other and  in that way they would learn community and how to work together and live together.  I believe that inhumane treatment only produces more inhumane treatment.  When people are taught self worth and live among peer who mirrow to them self worth they can climb back into somekind of society and live in peace even if it means they still live in prison.One must remember that some of these people will at some time go back into society.  What we have allowed to be created will return to us. Even crisis situations like earthquakes or floods could empty the prisoners onto our streets. Would it not be better to create better people than to feed off of their condemnation???

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