• polarheart said on Feb 18, 2007....

  I heard once that someone who murders a pregnant woman may get sentenced for double murder, but yet its ok for the mother to have her own baby murdered.  Today's society has double standards.
   

• momsrock said on Feb 18, 2007....

  I'm surprised about the 38%...I would have thought that group would have been much lower considering they already have children.

• anonymous said on Feb 18, 2007....

  It  is  very  sad  that  women  can  just  pay   400.00  dollar   or  more  because  they  desided  that  they   was  not   ready.   I  have  had   abortion  onces,  my  story  is  he  was  not  ready    and  i  listen  to  wrong  people  first  off   and  i  did   it  for  that  reason  which   was  a wrong   one,  Ilive with  that  choice  every  day.  Sometime  i  am   asked   would   i  have done  it again    I  say  no  because   i  have  to   live   with  my   decision  that  i  made.   But   FOR  GIRLS   OR   WOMEN   ONCES   YOU  LAY  DOWN   WITH  YOUR   ONE-NITE  STANDS   OR  LITTLE  GIRLS   WHO   THINK   THERE   GROWN.  THINK   BEFORE   YOU   DO  SOMETHING  YOU  WILL     REGRET!!!!!!!

• Lucytorial said on Feb 18, 2007....

  This is an extremely volatile topic TBS - I have not judged you for it and hope that you do not judge my comments to follow:

   

  My husband has cancer, the treatment over 3.5 years left him sterile... we decided I DECIDED early on in our 11 year relationship that I did not want to have children, that I did not want to go through losing my husband and have a child grow up without a father... THESE ARE MY views, a few years ago I fell pregnant to my husband and we had HAD TO discuss again what the fuck went on...

   

  "Your Sperm David is DEAD" and regular tests confirmed this but I fell pregnant anyway.... OUR decision was for me to go on to birth control and have an abortion for the very reasons above and MORE that I have expressed.  To call us murderers is nothing short of ignorance because a feotus does not have a brain with firing synapses until after 12 weeks, name me one doctor who will perform an abortion after 12 weeks and i will tell you won't find any... This is when medically a fertilised EGG is considered to be alive and a living being.

   

  It furiates me to think there are people willing to blindly swipe us all with the same brush without really thinking about it...

  The decision to abort is heartrending for most, to have shit slung at us when we do make the decision is ominus and odius to say the least.  When will people learn that one day... one day you will inevitably have to make a hard decision and it will be YOURS TO LIVE WITH FOR LIFE.

  Don't think we are arrogant, don't you dare assume to know from a black and white printed study which has been done by a lefty or a righty or an extremist group that we are all the same peices of shit!

  I cannot belive that ignorance is still guiding people to judge what they know fucking nothing about.  I'm sorry TBS but this is one topic I had to reply to today and I am sorry if I have offended you (I really am) because it is not MY place in this world to judge based on unknown factors......

  It does make me angry to hear these kidns of words and it strikes me as selfish (Which I am sure you will remind me of being that too)... TBS please understand that we all have our own views and opinions....

• husbandhater said on Feb 18, 2007....

  O.K. I'm coming out of the closet..... I've had an AB. I've regreted it everyday of my life. I think about those children everyday,what they would have looked like,what their voice would have sounded like....and I did it for some of the reasons above and a few personal ones.
   
  You might not like it but Lucy is right and you have to respect peoples' personal decisions. I respect that some choose not to have these children there is way too much abuse occuring b/c someone couldn't make this choice. Respect that people know their limits. Do I like this option? NO! Do I regret it? Yes but both times I was on birthcontrol and the condom broke so I wasn't trying. And Besides with what the hubby and I are going through do we really need anymore?
   
  You might not like ABs' but look at all the angles before you pass judgement. Some are stupid reasons and aren't justifiable and others have valid merit like Lucy's. Besides it is not you who will face these children on judgement day, it is me. It is me who will face the questions and possibly the tears and me who will have to answer to them and God.
   
  I'm not angry so don't take it that way b/c I've got love for you TBS. I find you extremly intelligent and you have a way of looking at things but this is one of those issues that if you haven't experienced it .........We'll have to agree to disagree as ed would say

• husbandhater said on Feb 18, 2007....

  And now I'm going off to cry somemore...............

• Lucytorial said on Feb 18, 2007....

  I agree, I got very angry with my post... now HH you are so dead right.  I dream of this child, little girl little boy I don't know all the time... I'm a women I'm a nurturer and it is natural to yearn and know my body and yes I will be judged myself but not by anyone here...

  I also enjoy your spirit TBS and I enjoy your honesty too this is one of those moments as sage momsrock says we must agree to disagree.. {{Hug?}}

• tbs230 said on Feb 19, 2007....

  Lucy, I'm not offended at all. I do however, think that to say that a baby doesn't exist until after 12 weeks is what you say to yourself in order to sleep at night. That study was actually done by a group that wasn't in it for political reasons. They were just doing a survey on the reason why people had abortions. I will look up the name of the organization and post that up later today.
  
  But back to my point, if you are having sex with someone...unprotected sex, and you don't want children...then that kind of puts you in a odd situation, don't you think? Don't get me wrong, there are millions of reasons why people get pregnant everyday, and yes you chose early on not to have a baby. And I respect your decision because it is your life. But I can't help wondering why couldn't you give the baby up for adoption? (you don't have to answer this since it's none of my business...but I'm just wondering if that ever crossed your mind).
  
  And this whole business about the egg not being alive. The simple fact that left alone it would become a living being should be enough. It is a FERTILIZED EGG, which means that it's potential to be living breathing human being is 100%.
  
  I do not think any woman who has had to give her baby up due to medical issues or trauma is wrong in anyway. But to decide that you are going to kill this potential for life, simply because it was unplanned, or because it doesn't fit into the neat schedule of your life is completely irresponsible.
  
  We having millions of children who are out on the streets, babies who are barely hanging on to life...and to add to that, we are going to say that a baby is only a living thing if the mother decides it is. That is a bunch of bullshit. Maybe if we were stricter on the laws that are meant to protect our children, there wouldn't be so many dying before and after they are delivered into this world.
  
  There's the pill, condoms, shots, natural planning...the list goes on and on...but because it is so easy to "fix" the problem that might arise from having unprotected sex, all that information, all those precautions are thrown to the wind.
  
  I truly believe that a women who knowingly and willing had sex and then finds out she will have a healthy normal pregnancy turns around and decides to have an abortion because she's not "ready" or because she doesn't want a child is the worst kind of person. And I say this with the knowledge that women are sometimes coerced, given wrong information, or no information at all. That they feel they can't handle a baby, or better yet, don't want people to know they are having sex yet.
  
  News Flash...the whole point of sex is to procreate...and that's a scientific fact! So to act surprised when you become pregnant is the worse kind of ignorance. Sometimes, it happens.
  
  I was shocked by the poll myself. Al of the reasons were purely selfish ones. I, I, I...never once about the baby. I'm not ready, I don't want it...MY life would be changed forever...when is it going to stop being about what I want and start being about what's best for the child?
  

• husbandhater said on Feb 19, 2007....

  {{{{HUGS to Lucy and anyone who invented(TBS) and answered this post. It is great in its own way though and you have to admireTBS for standing by her convictions. I wrote a poem one day afterwards to that child explaining. If I ever find the book I put it in I'll post it. I think I ended it with I thought God could do a better job of taking care of you than me.

• tbs230 said on Feb 19, 2007....

  HH and Lucy...I am not here to judge anyone on soulcast...I am just blogging about an issue that I feel very strongly about. I have found myself with the urge to nest. This is new for me and reading that Times article just made me livid. People on BOTH sides of the fence were giving this women the WRONG information. I just couldn't believe how the topic of abortion could become such a political one, even with those who claim to do without an agenda.
  
  I have battled with suicide, and to know that I am one of those people who's first thoughts would be about what I wanted and needed terrifies me.
  
  Again, the reasons for abortions are numerous and circumstances are unique to each individual but to see what the top choices are for having these procedures is horrifying. It should not be okay to do. Simply because no matter how hard you tell yourself that it was just an egg, that child will haunt you for the rest of your life. And even worse, those people who don't even give it a second thought? What message are we sending to them? What message are we sending to our children? What are we leaving behind to those that come after us?
  

• tbs230 said on Feb 19, 2007....

  {{{HH and Lucy}}} because although I'm ranting and raving I am still listening and I hurt for the pain you are going through and the pain I have caused by this post.
  
  For that, I am sorry.
  

• husbandhater said on Feb 19, 2007....

  I told you I was on birthcontrol and my hubby was using condoms on top of this and they broke. I was taking the proper precautions. And I think that a child should grow up in a loving and safe environment not one that is or has an abusive potential. Ted Bundy was unwanted and he knew it. He was the product of a mother who was too young to care for him & abortions were illegal. So she went away like most did and when she came back his grandmother claimed she was his mother and his mother was raised as his sister instead. He resented it and probably striked out due to it!
   
  I can add a list of names: Nixmary Brown, Lisa Steinbrenner and thousands of other children abused and killed by someone. Had Nixmary's mommy had her for the right reasons instead of to keep a part of a man maybe she would have had enough respect for herself and her child to not let another kill her.
  Lisa is a prime example of a young mom who"had" her and gave her up for illegal adoption and her adoptive parent killed her. What if their bioparents had of just ended it all early?
   
  I sometimes have sex with my hubby as a way of feeling close to him, that oneness. Not always to procreate.
  It is o.k. TBS we have to deal with it. But thankyou for the thought

• Lucytorial said on Feb 19, 2007....

  TBS - and HH everyone must stand by what they belive in..

   

  one question, for the millions of children who were given the right to life with cunts for parents who abuse, bully, bash, ignore all the most heinous things you can do to a person.. should they also have a right to live or would the child have been better off not being born to that parent rather than waiting for the right one to come along.... it's all about what you believe in I suppose.

  I disagree with the point about sex TBS - sex through eons has been a way to not only procreate but also maintain social ties, enjoyment, reconciliation and this also is a scientific fact it's not just about making babies...... Oh and I didn't have the child and then adopt it out because my husbands cancer is genetic! (Once again you are assuming TBS) yes it's called selection and would you rather I allow life to naturally select and have a child go through years of pain to die early?? aggh we will go round this merry go round for eternity TBS darling and I fear it will exhaust us both..

   

  I will leave it there knowing that you are a strong women with definite views and I admire that, I am perhaps the same in this respect.

  lol Tobi-Lee

• tbs230 said on Feb 19, 2007....

  I think you misunderstood my post and my replies Lucy. I acknowledged the fact that women have abortions for medical reasons and for trauma. And I also stated that it is the women who knowingly have unprotected sex that are the cause of my anger.
  
  Also, I never assumed anything, I was merely asking if adoption ever crossed your mind because you didn't mention it in your post.
  
  I am not against abortion...I simply think the process of having one is too easy. I don't presume to think that your decision or anyone else's for that matter was an easy one. I think I know you well enough to realize that you are not the kind of person to make decisions half-assed (that IS an assumption on my part).
  
  Again, to anyone reading this and thinking along the same lines as Lucy. I am not judging everyone who has ever had an abortion. I don't even particularly think abortion is wrong. I am just angry that some of those top choices had nothing to do with what was best for the baby. I was stating my opinion and asking a genuine question. Why is abortion so common.
  

• kelly said on Feb 19, 2007....

  It is a FERTILIZED EGG, which means that it's potential to be living breathing human being is 100%.
  
  That is incorrect:
  

  
  Studies show that about 10 to 20 percent of women who know they are pregnant have a miscarriage some time before 20 weeks of pregnancy; 80 percent of these occur in the first 12 weeks. But the actual rate of miscarriage is even higher since many women have very early miscarriages without ever realizing that they are pregnant. One study that followed women's hormone levels every day in order to detect very early pregnancy found a total pregnancy loss rate of 31 percent.
  

  
  Taken from here.

• Lucytorial said on Feb 19, 2007....

  okay I am TBS bowing before you.. now i understand... I didn't get it before because you were so strong about your words.... phew! okay there are differences of opinion as will always be the case and I understand that some people can make the wrong decision but it's only wrong in my eyes really.

  I think it's so common TBS and I should have said this before - it's because life is so immediate, that we want we get, nothing can stop us... kind of attitude it's funny my hb knows that if it wasn't for his cancer I'd be pregers most of the time I think but not this life... (agh sometimes words do not express).

  I have been to the clinics here and TBS I'm not sure what it's like there but it's indepth here and you really have to show cause... not just I'm too young not some of those answers, there is counciling, there are questionaires and if you are married they do not allow you to see anyone at the clinic without your husband as you understand it's not just the women but its the man as well... so maybe it's different here but the availability is still there. 

  I may be fertile, my husband (not suppose to be) and I don't fuck around so birth control has never been as issue until it happened and now fuck I'm so safe I laugh.. lessons are learnt in life by many people and I can guarantee you one thing TBS is that we all feel it.. I still feel it.. I had morning sickness from the day after right up until the.. day after... it lives in my memory as something I wish I didn't need to do, I believe though in different ideals, spiritualy I don't believe in a rock is a rock, it's also a part of the universal wisdom that tells the rock - water will now change you to sand... so for me yes I live with it and will for the rest of my life I also belive that my special little human being that decided I might be the perfect parent has had another chance with someone far better able to provide it with the love that it needs, deserves , requires and something else... the ideal that life deserves life. 

• tbs230 said on Feb 19, 2007....

  Kelly, I don't understand what you're saying to me here. If I'm wrong, then how does the fact that miscarriages occur prove that I am wrong? Women can have those at any time during their pregnancy, it does change anything. Unless what you're trying to tell me is that the potential for it to be a living human being doesn't occur until after 12 weeks?? I'm lost.
  

• tbs230 said on Feb 19, 2007....

  Lucy, I'm so happy that we understand each other, or better yet that you understand where I'm coming from. I really was looking at the map they gave of clinics and the one of statistically high abortion states, and I have to ask myself if it is a coincidence that New York and California are the highest.
  
  It just kills me to think that these babies (the ones given up for no better reason than because they don't "fit" well with the plan)...these babies aren't wanted. Which is not the same as being wanted, but not being able to be taken care of.
  
  It is all about perception. I know that people come to high schools and take to these girls about using protection, about std's, about getting pregnant. But no one ever talks about abortion, about the emotional, and physical, and psychological pain that will follow something like that. And these young women go out and and think to themselves that if anything goes wrong, they have the morning after pill, and worse comes to worse, they have abortion clinics. No one ever realizes that what we want is sometimes not what we need, should or can actually have.
  
  I just hate the way misinformation gets trickled down to the ones that need it in this country.
  

• kelly said on Feb 19, 2007....

  I'm merely stating that your original statement was incorrect. Nothing more than that. Miscarriages are really just spontaneous abortions.

  I also get the feeling that you think women who get abortions for those reasons do not go through serious introspection about the whole thing.

  Be careful when you talk about misinformation. For instance, the right to life lobby in the 80s purposefully created a rumor campaign making sex ed classes out to be amoral environments where teachers sometimes engaged in sex with a student in front of the class. Another instance, your pointing out that NY and CA are "statistically" high abortion states. Well, yes they would be since they are such huge population centers.

  Don't worrry too much. The right wing is still on the rise in this country and a woman's ability to choose will probaby soon go away.

• mom said on Feb 19, 2007....

  I am pro life. I do not agree with abortions except in extreme cases.  My daughter in law had 2 abortions while she was married to my son because she didn't want to bother.  This was upsetting because they were my grandchildren.  I would have gladly raised them.  I believe that children are a gift from God.  I feel like TBS, that we live in a throw away society and I get upset when women use abortion as a form of birth control.  I have 8 children, only 2 were planned.  I can't imagine my life without any of them.
  I have had friends who have had abortions, I don't hate them and I didn't rant and rave about it.  It was always their choice and they have always lived to regret it.  They mourn about that unborn child more than they would have if it had died any other way because they were the executioner.  This will always be their cross to bear.  I don't need to hate people who abort their children because they will punish themselves.  I wish the world was different but it isn't.

• MsBradford07 said on Feb 20, 2007....

  I didn't know about these stats, but I shouldn't be surprised.

• tbs230 said on Feb 20, 2007....

  kelly, I was restating what I read in the Time magazine. And I don't for a minute think that psychological issues do not occur after a egg/fetus/baby is aborted. Of course NY and CA have statiscally higher numbers. I mentioned this to show my point about fast paced lives and the mentality of Americans these days. I am from NYC, so I know what I am talking about, and I am also putting myself in this category.
  
  I didn't understand how miscarriages null the potential for life, and I still don't. Also, misinformation is misinformation, no matter who is spewing it. I don't think misinforming people about abortions is any better or worse than misinforming people about safe sex.
  
  A women's ability to choose is not the point here. Here's a question for you. Should someone be allowed to murder their child simply because they don't want it? No other reason, nothing medical, nothing that has to do with trauma, or even concern for the welfare of the child?
  
  If we get into choice, then we open up another can of worms. I am just stating that the right to choose is a gift and a responsibility to do the right thing. In the end I don't care if the woman does decide that an abortion is the right choice. As long as she made that choice on her own and was given the right information.
  

• tbs230 said on Feb 20, 2007....

  Ms, those stats scared the living hell out of me, because I could so easily picture myself saying the same things.
  
  Mom, my biggest fear is that I will become one of those women. I wrote a previous blog about not wanting children. That is something that I wish I could take back, because I find myself visualizing about holding a baby.
  
  With the state that I am in right now, those statistics piss the hell out of me.
  

• truthsayer said on Feb 20, 2007....

  Dear TBS:

  I saw this post soon after you posted it.  I wanted to post a comment right away, but thought better of it.  I am sorry for you that I did not, but so often, after I post, the "conversation" seems to stop.  I agree with Mom, and I thought I agreed with you, but you seem to have waivered.  I wish you hadn't.  You were right.

  If abortions WERE NOT available, and every woman that got pregnant, and didn't want to raise the child, knew that she had to complete the pregnancy and give the child up for adoption...you would see the pregnancy levels drop, drastically.  I guarantee it.  We live in a very immoral, quick fix society.  And yet, before any of you women that have chosen society's sick option for birth control:  My life has been quite affected by abortion.  It tore my family apart, before I was even born; and continues to do so.

  My own niece came to me pregnant and asked me to adopt her child.  I hadn't even known that she was pregnant when she first came to stay with us, months before.  But because of things going on in my own life (sound familiar???), I told her that I would stand by her, that she could live with us and I would see her through the entire pregnancy and subsequent adoption---but that I could not adopt her unborn child.  She said, 'I am too selfish for adoption' to a stranger, and had her mother pick her up that day and take her for an abortion.  She was five months pregnant!!!  So, ladies, don't tell me that all abortions happen at 12 weeks or before.  No offense, but that's a lie you have chosen to believe.

  I bear your blood guilt too ladies.  It was inconvenient for me to adopt her baby.  I figured her mother would someday want the baby, or that my niece would someday want it back; and then, my heart would be broken too.  I was thinking of me; and thought adoption was the only option, but even that, would require too much of her she said.

  I had another friend who had been seduced, deceived and manipulated by a Muslim producer at the  TV station she worked at.  They had been involved for years, although he was already married and had three or four (maybe more) children in that marriage.  She had been a virgin when she met him, and they had one child already.  She got pregnant again, when they were already "on the rocks".  She hid it as long as she could because she was talking to an abortionist about having a late term pregnancy abortion.  She was about six months along, when she finally decided to keep the baby, again.  Thank God.

  The man never took resposibility for the children.  He gave them Muslim names at the hospital and on the birth certificates, but he rejected them in public.  He told people that she was crazy, and a stalker.  He got away with it too; because of his position.  But I was there.  I was a witness.  That woman was amazing, but human, and very afraid.  She almost did it.  The abortionist made a great case to her.  Full of lies and manipulations that were all politically correct.

  Would you like more examples of how difficult and heart wrenching it is, or can be?  I have more.  But you two, like my mother and my niece have all been devastated by your choices, and like Mom says; that is punishment enough.  Would you like to inform TBS about all the health risks of abortion, to the women that have them?  Or do you even know?  You probably do not.  It is not politically correct; but abortion is.

  I have forgiven my mother (fairly late term abortion too---it was a boy) and my niece, but most of all, myself, for failing my beloved niece, and her little baby boy.  I was selfish.  They were selfish.  We may have killed potential nobel prize winners, aids curers, aerospace engineers; but what if they were only cashiers at a convenience store, a waitress, a computer geek?  Who are we to decide who lives and dies, who is valuable and who is not?

  I have one last thought to leave you all with.  When they first fertilized an egg with sperm, in a petri dish, and every time since, they have been amazed and yet rarely discuss a phenomena that must occur, in order for fertilization to occur:

                             THERE IS A SPARK.  A real, visible, recordable, spark.

  Scientists are baffled.  They do not know what it is.  Now, I know what that is, Mom knows what it is, TBS might know what it is.  The scientists admit that they can't make it happen, and it doesn't happen at 12 weeks, it happens at conception.  If it happens, they know there has been conception.  If it doesn't, they know there has been no conception. 

  Who makes that spark?  What is it?  Can you make that spark happens at your own will? I think not.

  May God Bless You All...and still, we're all accountable.  This is a people problem, a human problem, everybody's problem but the babies....it is my problem, and I am taking responsibility for it.  Abortion should be a non-option, unless, the Bible says, the mother's life is in physical jeopardy.  James Robison's mother was raped, and he digs wells in third world countries by the tens of thousands.  There are as many success stories as the ones they tried to "scare" you with for their reasons to abort.  Although I feel for them, that is not the point. 

  Murder should not have been an option for Scott Peterson, and it should not be an option for anyone.  If you fear for your unborn child, either in your own hands or in the hands of your mate:  Have the child and let someone more responsible or settled raise it. 

  And TBS, you are right.  It is considered homocide in either 17 or 47 states...I know that is a broad range, I just cannot remember which it is either.  How did they get around that???  Politics my dear, politics and lies.

  truthsayer 

    

    

• mom said on Feb 20, 2007....

  Truth- that was very good.  I am not fact literate with all of this but only know what I have seen and have been told by friends.  I can't give statistics nor do I care about statistics.  I only know what I know.  My daughter when she married wanted children but was worried.  She asked me if it was right to bring a child into the world with the way things are.  She asked me if it was selfish.  I told her that for all we know, that child could grow up to be a positive impact on society.  We just don't know what that child will grow up as.  I told her it was selfish not to have children.  She did have a little girl and she can't imagine her life without her.  She no longer questions if it is right or selfish.  Our children can be the greatest blessing we have in our lives.  I can't begin to tell you how my life has been so enriched.  They have given me the worst heartaches but also the greatest blessings.  I have known women who due to abortions can no longer have children.  They had one abortion and that ruined their chances of ever having children.  Having children or aborting them is a gamble either way.  I have seen the abortion films and it was heart wrenching to watch.  I feel that if the schools can talk  about anal sex, BDSM, Homosexual love etc. then why can't they show all sides of the abortion issue?
   
  TBS- There is nothing wrong with changing your mind.  Just because you wrote about not wanting a child doesn't mean you can't change your mind.  People change their minds all the time. :)  Be true to yourself always. If something was to happen and you did conceive.  There is no reason that you can't raise that child if you love it.  If you don't feel that you can raise it, there are so many couples out there that want children and would pay for all your expenses.  There is always an option for that unborn child.  God did create sex to procreate but also to bring couples together and to love each other. I have told my kids that with sex comes a lot of responsibility.  The baby is either a blessing or it can be a curse depending on what was the basis of the sex act.  If the sex was between two loving adults that wanted to substantiate the love they have for one another, then the baby is a blessing.  If a child is made where no love is involved then the baby will usually be a curse.  I have  not been always successful in this teaching but I have tried.
   
  When I have looked into my sweet newborns face, I have always been teary and thanked God for entrusting me with that little spirit.  It was some of the closest times I ever felt to God.
   
  When I was pregnant with my last baby, I was considered Geriatric because I was 40.  My doctor wanted to do an Amniocentisis, but he gave me the choice.  He said they would only do it to see if the child would be born with Downs' Syndrome.  He also asked me if I would consider an abortion if the baby was abnormal.  I said, "No", I knew that I would have the baby that God intended me to have.  I would love the child regardless.  My daughter was born healthy, she is slow for her age, but she was and never will be a mistake.  I don't mean to harp on this or make myself out to be a Saint as I am not one by no means but this subject is close to me and I want people to know this side of having children regardless of the situation.
   

• SillyMommy62902 said on Feb 20, 2007....

  I understand some of the Right to Life people and their views on this.  But I also think most of those who hold the view that abortion should not be legal also have strong religious beliefs, most likely Christian.  Now, if each of these little unborn souls to go heaven instead of having to suffer the punishment of having an uncaring mother, no father, not enough to eat, abuse as they grow up, etc.--- How is that wrong?
  
  If you seriously think about it, what is wrong about sending a fetus to heaven before it can suffer here on Earth?  If that little soul goes straight into the arms of God, who does it really hurt?  The baby never has to go hungry.  He never has to suffer through disease, divorce, changing schools, broken arms, absent mother, depression, drug addiction, or sexual abuse.  He flies right into the arms of God.
  
  

• mom said on Feb 20, 2007....

  There is nothing wrong if the infant dies due to natural processes.  If God wanted  the fetus back that quick he would end the life himself.  We could argue sides for years but I said what I believe and to me that is all there is.  If you believe it is right then that is your position but to me it is wrong.  Granted there is a lot of evil in the world but there is also a lot of good.  I also believe that adoption is always an option.  I think that we as humans need to re-evaluate life. Our "out of sight out of mind" way of thinking has really gone out of whack. I don't feel we have the right to choose "when that soul goes straight into the arms of God".  To use your excuse is just a way of justifying your position and soothing your conscience. 

• tbs230 said on Feb 20, 2007....

  You know, I remember my mother telling me she was pregnant with my sister. I wished for the next 6 months for that baby to just go away. I wasn't ready to share my mother,,,with anyone.
  
  I don't know what I would do without my sister. I don't know where I'm going with this, it's just so hard to imagine a life getting snuffed out before necessary for no other reason but that it's an inconvenience.
  

• mom said on Feb 20, 2007....

  LOL TBS don't feel bad about wishing your little sister away.  I think we have all wished our siblings away at some point and time.  I know I did.  I remember asking my mom if she could have the stork take my little sister because I didn't like her. My mother said no.  I asked her for many years, but now that we are adults we are very good friends. :)  I am glad that now she is here but it took many years for me to feel that way about her.

• truthsayer said on Feb 21, 2007....

  Thank you TBS, for writing this.  You are a very brave young lady.  I applaud you.

  Thanks mom, for all your inspiration, here and everywhere.  You are a powerful lady, and I thank you for all that you have offered me, personally and spiritually.

  That spark makes EVERY CHILD a blessing.  Every single one.  Only our sin is the curse...the child is innocent of our sin.  For no longer will the teeth of the children be set on edge, when the father eats sour grapes (obviously paraphrased ; )  So, that is the only way that mom and I disagree even slightly.  That child may feel like a curse, which is why that person seeks, and feels justified in an abortion.  Even if they tell themselves there are altruistic reasons for violently ending the child's life.

  The only way a person can have an abortion is to believe that they can play God.  Even if they don't believe in God...their belief in themselves is as a god.  I know this sounds tough, but it is true.  And my heart aches for you.  My heart aches for me.  I have forgiven myself, but I know, that I know, that I know, that I know...if I had just agreed to do, and if I had DONE, exactly what my niece asked me to do...I could have saved the life of that little curly headed half Cajun boy (that is how he was described to me, that he might be). 

  sillymommy:

  You know, I have a ton of respect for you sillymommy, because you had a heart to listen and think our posts over.  You are braver than you know.  I want to mention something about your comment about "mostly Christians".  I want to point out what should be a very eye opening truth, to Americans that have fallen away from what America once was, and have accepted deterioration as evolution. 

  Do you know what Muslims hate the most about America?  They hate our amorality.  They hate our moral decay, and they think we are spreading it all over the world.  It's time to buck up and be the great lady this country was meant to be.  The greatest irony is this:  I asked the Lord once, how, on earth, I would ever know the ones that were truly His, if even the "elect" could be deceived...how would I know truth from falsehood, in religion?  Because, I told him, even among Christian denominations, all feel that they alone, have the right "lists".  How was I then, to discern between true Believers in Jesus, and also, all the other religions of the world?

  Do you know what he told me?  Look to their women and children.  Not what they say about how they treat, or are supposed to treat, their women and children...but, how do they really treat them...what do the women and children of that religion say?  Do you know that that simple thing has been able to guide me through a study of all major religions, Judiasm, and Christianity???  What wisdom He has, if we will only listen.

  Nationally, in America, despite what it looks like, or what they try to tell us, we do not treat our women and children very well...but, we do treat them better than many, or most countries.  We certainly treat them better, as a Christian nation, than Muslim nations do.  But until we repent, nationally (individually), even "cops" is right...we have little chance of reclaiming America the beautiful.  I mean, can you tell me, honestly, what is beautiful about an irresponsible, self-serving population that is willing to delude itself; in some vain attempt at deluding others?

  imlovin' ya, even when you think i'm not...

  truth

• truthsayer said on Feb 21, 2007....

  BTW:  I am pretty strange (a peculiar treasure), by popular standards, but I just wanted you all to know that there are false Christians out there.  Some professing Christians don't treat their wives, mothers and daughters very well either.  So don't judge all Christians by some other Christian, or group of Christians that you have met, or had a problem with.  It is a walk that is in some ways solitary, and yet, so great when you do have the good company of others that seek His perfect will.  Great discussion TBS...

• mom said on Feb 21, 2007....

  Truth at first I couldn't figure out how we differed slightly and i realized that you misunderstood about what I said about a baby being a blessing or a curse. I meant that the baby will be viewed by the parents as a blessing or a  curse.  A child is never a curse but always an innocent child.

• truthsayer said on Feb 22, 2007....

  mom and TBS:

  Absolutely!  I grapple with this often.  I interact with people that have been sexually abused, and I hear that they feel defective; cursed.  I hear from people that were raised in single parent homes, and they feel defective because they never knew their father; they feel cursed.  I hear from women that have had abortions, and though they rarely admit it, they feel "cursed". 

  In fact, I have met people that would like to believe in the Lord, and receive Him as Savior, and Lord of their lives; but, in their heart of hearts, they do not feel worthy.  Like they have done too many things wrong or something; when that is exactly who He came for!!!  The ones that do not feel worthy!!!  He didn't come to anyone that thinks that they are already righteous and therefore, not in need of a Savior!

  I had one old man tell me that he wouldn't want to have anything to do with a God that wanted to have anything to do with the likes of him!  That was the day that I realized that anyone that doesn't come to the Lord, if He is presented as who He really is, has one of two problems:  Pride, or feeling unworthy...or both!

  Anyway, thanks for clarifying that in here.  I hate to have anyone think that their baby, aborted, adopted or alive and kept, could ever be a curse.  I understand now, and I knew that you didn't mean it in a bad way, I just didn't quite understand.  

  It is equally important that the ladies that spoke out here, or anyone else that comes to this brave discussion started by TBS, and has had already had an abortion...You are not cursed either.  No matter what our sin, and we are all sinners, sin is sin in the Lord's eyes.  I have sinned as greatly as anyone else.  Having an abortion is not unforgivable.  It is completely forgivable.  In fact, I will share my heartfelt belief with you...

  I believe that abortion is another form of sexual abuse, legal sexual abuse, performed routinely, by professionals, on women, and their babies.

  TBS,  I don't want to take this discussion farther than you are ready to.  It is your blog, after all.  But I would suggest to you, that if you are really wanting to know about abortion, and come to a firm position, a steadfast position (wherever we are not steadfast, the devil is able to torture us), look at the history of Planned Parenthood.

  Planned Parenthood is a one billion dollar a year business.  28% of their funding comes from our taxes.  Planned Parenthood has it's earliest roots in ethnic cleansing.  It was part of a white supremist plan to offer abortions to people of color, the poor and other "undesirables".  I was shocked when I learned this, but not as shocked as I was to realize that no one speaks of this, it isn't taught, and it really isn't that hard to learn about....so, why don't we all know this?  Organizations don't "evolve", they are, the essence of their truth, is in their origins.

  This is all in addition to the increased risk of breast cancer, cervical cancer (maybe other forms of cancer too, I don't know), infertility and the incredible psychological and spiritual damage.  They just tell them the stories they told all the others before them, and send them on their way...never around to help them recover from this violent devastation on their bodies and their lives. 

  It's a spooky world.  I don't want to curse the darkness, I just want to be a light.

  Thanks again TBS, mom sillymommy, et. al., for a great interaction.

  truthsayer

• mom said on Feb 22, 2007....

  Truth- In the New Testament Christ talks about him coming for the sinner.  He said the whole needs no physician.  You are right he comes for those who are sinners, otherwise what purpose would he have served?  A lot of times we don't feel worthy so we don't turn to him and that is Satan trying to keep us from repenting and asking for repentance.  Christ died on the cross for our sins and for us not to accept that and be willing to ask for forgiveness then it is almost that Christ died in vain.  Forgiveness is waiting if we come unto him. No one is cursed except by their own conscience.

• truthsayer said on Feb 23, 2007....

  Exactly mom.  I am getting ready to blog about forgiveness.  It is an easy topic to misunderstand, and worthy of some examination. 

  Will you do me a favor and read the blog I posted yesterday?  Let me know what you think, will you?  TBS, mom?  And everyone that posted in here?

  God Speed,

  truthsayer

• mom said on Feb 23, 2007....

  Sure I will Truth. :)  Going to do it right now. *hugs*

• boyzmom said on Feb 28, 2007....

  As I read this I think about my sister and her husband, both drug addicts, abusing and neglecting their children they already have and bringing a fourth child into this world. A child born addicted to drugs, with a congenital heart disease that was put into foster care the day after birth. I think would the child be better off never being born? Now that child is 1 year old, so precious and healthy, a gift to that family because without her, the drug abuse would have continued.

  I think when you say, anyone who willfully has sex and gets pregnant should not get to choose abortion for selfish reasons, that it couldn't include my sister because she was under the influence of drugs. Her mind was not her own. Sure, she chose to use drugs but then her brain actually convinced her that she needed them to survive, she could not think clearly after that addiction. I don't know much about it but I know it affects the sex drive also.

  I think about the lies I was fed with my first pregnancy. I was told I would probably miscarry because it was an ectopic pregnancy and it would be better to abort in a clinic than miscarry and risk bleeding to death (or something like that). Was I selfish to put my life over the life of a fetus? Now I don't believe that my life was in danger but I did choose abortion at the time. I mean the explanation I was given doesn't make sense now that I have had two children. Am I a murderer?

  It saddens me that people get so upset about this topic. I believe abortion is wrong, even though I had one 10 yrs ago. I also believe an immature person who will believe all the lies they are told will not be a good parent and is not capable of making this decision but that it has to be an option. Overpopulation is a serious problem and this quick fix to these "accidents" will prevent another baby boom. There are more senior citizens than there are young workers to take care of them. I believe in taking care of what we have before we get more than we can handle. There are not as many adoptive parents anymore because of what they can do with artificial insemination now. Many people choose to adopt outside of the country. It's too complex to really know without proper research but there is a children's home in my area that is always full of "unwanted" children. When will it end?

  I think it is not just about unprotected sex and selfishness. There are far too many issues here.

• RollingC said on Feb 28, 2007....

  Good post and great topic.
  I once had a relationship where we got along great in bed but nowhere else really. Long story so I'll skip all the details. I got her pregnant and since I had no desire to marry her convinced her to get an abortion quickly...before the second month was up.  I now realize that was a mistake as fully developed or not the baby was a living human being in process of being born. It was a mistake on my part and whenever I think of my nephew I realize I would've had a son his age and he would've had a cousin almost his age if not the same.
  Since coming back to the church...actually years before....I've changed my lifestyle and that mistake will not be repeated.
  

• mom said on Feb 28, 2007....

  Rolling- The hardest part of making a mistake is realizing it was and having to live with it.  Sorry that you are living with that.

• truthsayer said on Feb 28, 2007....

  I wasn't going to comment on this anymore.  I really thought that I, and others had stood fast and were respectful, and I haven't checked on it recently.  I happened to see steelman's abortion blog, and saw the link posted back to this one.  So, I thought I would check it out again.

  Boyzmom, I thought your comments were very thoughtful, and they added something that had been missing.  You may or may not know that God Himself ordained that if it ever came down to saving either the baby's life, or the mother's life, they were instructed always, to save the mother.  I just thought you might like to know that, if you didn't already.  That is the only time God allows abortion, it is the only "exception" as mom mentioned on steelman's blog.

  You had no choice with an ectopic pregnancy.  I have only heard of one instance of a full term ectopic pregnancy; and that baby was a miracle.  It grew completely outside of the woman's womb.  They didn't even know that it was outside of her womb, until shortly before it was born though.

  You did what God says to do.  You saved your own life.  That is not to say that a woman can say that she'll kill herself, or something like that, if she doesn't get an abortion, and in getting that abortion, her life is saved : (  I mean...c'mon.

  Anyway, thanks for adding to the conversation here.  Hi RollingC, good to c you again.  Sorry about the baby, but glad to see that you recognize your error.  God is always forgiving of that which we confess and ask forgiveness for.  We just cannot be forgiven for something that we do, if we are unwilling to admit that it was wrong, you know? 

  I agree with mom on this one.

  truthsayer 

   

• wakingharmony said on Sep 21, 2007....

  Hugs to all of you!!!  I do not like to judge people anymore than I want to be Judged. I will tell My Story I dont want to shanghi your post.... you all have helped me with some difficult tasks. I have So much tyo say and don't know where to start I guess today will be Baby day.

• tbs230 said on Oct 10, 2008....

  I am sorry to each and every single person I judged with this post.

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