JadeLondon's tags:
"See that girl there? She's a lesbian."

Perhaps I am simply naïve, or for all my looks otherwise, old-fashioned, but I must say--it is not the sort of thing I expected to hear from the mouth of a ten-year-old girl. Especially in reference to one of her own peers.

"What gives you that impression?" I asked, Dark Eyes, wondering all the while if it were more proper for me to quell the conversation as opposed to encouraging the discussion.

"Well, she goes around asking to kiss other girls."

"Maybe she is simply curious," I responded. "I mean ten-years-old..." I trailed off, and the girl's large, liquid eyes caught my gaze in question. It was just too young. Wasn't it? Did one decide what one wanted even then?

Maybe it wasn't so much the recognition of sexual preference, as it was Dark Eyes' acknowledgement and frankness, concerning it. I don't know, really.

In retrospect, I don't know why I was so surprised. Starr, my best friend, and I once had a discussion of sexuality. She told me from the age of five she knew she preferred females to males. I don't believe my puzzlement originates from this, however.

Maybe it was Dark Eyes' use of the word 'lesbian'.

Even though this has happened some months since, I mentioned this to my husband in passing two nights ago. He laughed deeply, richly. "Are you kidding me?"

"What?" I couldn't control the smile curving my mouth, he seemed genuinely amused.

The crassness of his next words shocked the prude within me, but my mind could not deny the unfortunate ring of truth: "Even in my day, there were girls not much older who would suck dick. And if they were not having anal sex, they were thinking about it."

I nodded reluctantly, remembering eleven and twelve-year-old classmates speaking of sexual exploits. It was a time of lost innocence and longing. I can remember the popular question: "Are you a woman or a child?" If you didn't bleed, you couldn't compete.

Maybe what shocked me about Dark Eyes' declaration was not so much what she said--as to whom she said it.

I remember, beyond even sexual orientation, whispered confidences of wet, tongue kissing and furtitive gropings, charged discussions about tampons and the importance of bush trimming. What I don't remember was discussing them so openly with another adult. Certainly no one outside of my family circle.

Perhaps I should simply feel honored to be one of the girls. Being a late bloomer, I wasn't then. Could I be now?

It scares the hell out of me. Firstborn surprises me continually with the notions that float within his brain, that trip from his tongue. I wonder what will come from his mouth when he reaches ten.

Is it simply a sign of the times? Why are our children so very knowing? Where has gone their innocence?


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Comments

  • lioneljay said on Feb 16, 2007....
    Jade, I think that our children get a much wider introduction to the world through television and movies than any generation before them. It seems inevitable that they will try to show their sophistication when they get a chance. Sometimes it's more than a little startling, isn't it?

    Your initial response, though, was on the money. Curiosity can lead us in many directions and often it's with our closest friends that we begin to explore sex. Soon we develop a little bit of confidence and then move on to explorations with others, usually of the opposite gender. But not always
  • JadeLondon said on Feb 16, 2007....
    LJ: Startling, yes! And I also feel it is a careful ground to tread. How do you discuss this sort of thing with a ten-year-old, especially one not your own child?

    Your point on curiosity reminds me, of course, of Truth or Dare. ;)

  • lioneljay said on Feb 16, 2007....
    Jade, it's my belief that games like Truth or Dare exist so that youngsters can explore in a relatively safe way. By submitting to the rules of the game, they give themselves permission to do things that they would not be comfortable trying on their own. But, since they "had to do it" to fulfill a dare, they can soothe their conscience.

    I see long phone conversations between adolescent boys and girls in the same way. They're a means of learning how to be intimate from a safe distance.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 16, 2007....
    note to self: before commenting on such matters myself, ask LJ as he will comment more insightfully.

    ed
  • beyondtheveil said on Feb 16, 2007....
    jade- I agree with LJ that it's the flood of information. Commercials are almost as bad as tv programs and movies. I believe this has a tendency to make it "OK" for youth to explore and talk about it more freely.
  • lioneljay said on Feb 16, 2007....
    Note to self: steal ed's trout and smack him soundly.
  • secretlife said on Feb 16, 2007....
    the kids hear all the words and around 10, they try to use them too....
     
    your child might be sheltered from them for a while, but i remember my oldest using lesbian and homosexual in 4th or 5th grade and being shocked by it.
     
    Yes it's TV and movies and the internet and all of those things.  and we also forget that other kids have older brothers and sisters and they use the words and the littler ones pick them up and they begin to use them too.  i think alot of times they use them without really understand the sexual meanings........to them, lesbian is kissing girls.  i do not think they actually delve deeper into the sexual meaning at that age....
     
    most kids at 11 and 12 aren't having oral sex or anal sex.  although everyone might remember someone or ones from their younger days who seemed to be into sexual things, i have to believe this is the exception and not the rule.
     
    From my experience, kids are curious.  They use all words (not just sexual ones) and experiment with them.  sometimes they do it to shock the adults....to try to show themselves in a more grown up light.
     
    to me, even though my own said those words and many more, i knew that they were still innocent....although i did lament with each new one, a step closer to not being innocent forever.
     
  • gingersoul said on Feb 16, 2007....

    Oh Jade.....and .....where all the cowboys are gone? ....lol...

    Or...there it used to be the middle season and now?

    I think that my mother was thinking the same way watching me and my sis growing. Or at least this is what i want believe.

    Because otherwise its just too scary...:-)

    My kiddo is almost 12........few months only...and last week she went home with the most intricated tale of betrayal, lies, gossip and simpy prejudicial statements ever. I had to make her tell the story twice. It seemed written by the wacko people at Jerry Springer, version teen. Well, shortly......"Mom, Jodi told me that this lesbian got out with her girlfriend who is so a retarded and cheated with her emo boyfriend who was the best friend of this sick biotch who is so now so close with that gay friend of Lisa"...WHAT?

    Its was me saying what.....What? I told her "Why are you using all these terms to describe kids like you? Can you call them by name, for example, Jane, Roy, Brenna, Sami"....She said she don't use these appellative but was simply repeating what other kids were telling here...Told her it was even worst.....can you think with your own brain?. It was definetely time for a talk.

    So I sat down  with her and told her that words are important and words can hurt. "If you go around calling somebody retarded or sick or biotch or wathever, you are classifying these kids, limiting who they are and basically spreading rumors about them. What if one day would happen to you? And you know it might happen..." I told her the rules of the pack--peers are cruel and not always right and i was disappointed if she would have give in to them just to be popular...

    Jade, we can only hope our words penetrate their thick cortex protected by way too many things: trend, fashion, ads, YouTube, Myspace, Mtv, grill and shake your booty, shorty girflriends who give in on the back of the limousine feeling so glamouros.....you got it...its a collage of songs....they hear these words, they repeat them, they use........lesbian, gay, making out.....and they know exactly what these words mean...because they have been repepated and used in specific contest...

    My daughter seemed understand my words but how long it will take before the sorrounding will swallow her? It the out there that is changed or is our perception?

    Probably my mother would have horripilate if i would ahve said words like: vagina, penetration, French kiss.

    Now these words are taught (luckily) in class. I am not afraid of these words. I dont like the wrong use of them. Whe they are used out of contest and for hurting people and for acting at 12 like they are 30's.

    Because the big difference i notice between our generation and these nw ones is that the society, the media, the system work in one direction: accellerating their growth. They are not important young and penniless. But being teen means having alreday some little money or potentiality to influence the purchases of parents...the system cant wait to put its hands on them...and for doing so kids have to be influenced and directed...to turn in CONSUMERS.

    The pressure in unbearable. And this leads us back to the words we heard from them...

    The only thing we can do is pointing at our kids what really lures behind the "oh so glamouros, glamoruos" (as Fergie sings).....

    good luck with yours, Jade..:-)

  • JadeLondon said on Feb 16, 2007....
    LJ: You are a wise man. And you can have Silver's trout when I am done!

    Silver: I can hardly believe that you have nothing to say! (See above comment). :)

    Beyond: I wholeheartedly agree! Anything goes nowadays. And in my area, anyway, many of the stations that once devoted a portion of their afternoons to children's programming have now replaced them with talkshows and the like. No wonder children pick up such ideas!

    Secret: I think my husband was exaggerating a bit, too. Being the all or nothing person that he is, I am not surprised to see that he would take that stance.

    As you say, there always seemed to be that one girl that took things beyond kissing. Even then, I would expect peer pressure and idle curiosity to be factors in this behavior before any sexual motivation.

    Although I was shocked by her statement, I do not believe that was her intention.

  • JadeLondon said on Feb 16, 2007....
    Ginger: And don't they seem so strong in their convictions? From baby to adult before our very eyes. Whatever happened to the transition?

    Yes, the media has force fed our children quite readily. Makes me think I should throw my television out. But there are good programs, too. Such a delicate balance, no?

  • silverwhisper said on Feb 16, 2007....
    jade, i know wisdom when i see it. and looking at LJ's post, i see it right there.

    ed
  • gingersoul said on Feb 16, 2007....

    Jade.......oh yes....that's their side against the world...they are building their fences to protect themselves......having an opinion and defend it strongly, even if is completely wrong,  give them the key to refine their endurance against the pressure....

    Transition was that small window of time between Limited 2 clothes and Hollister. Same tshirts, whole different messages sent to the out there...

    Because what they are doing is billboarding themselves: they seemed obsessed in listing: their preferences, their taste in food, music, video, clothes, friends.....and the next day they change them already. They have to be opinionated with gusto, to the point of stupidity sometimes...because they are silly....and so fragile...

    The balance is in exposing them to diffent things: museums against MySpace, new books agaisnt emailing Brenna who sais that Katie sais that Emily said that Brandon si cute....but he is NOT......lol....

    we did the same...lol...

    sometimes though they are so funny....i l know my girl is still so goofy...and she doesn't like to have boyfriends...she "dumped" one last week...he was talking about love...she said she is not ready for that kind of things....not having a boyfriend is so less stressing, mom....i swear, it seemed like Carrie of Sex and the city was talking to me ... LOL...

    balance.....oh, the magic word....and patience....

    Do your kidl already does the rolling eyes thingie when you say something they fouund so old fashioned or out of trend?......lol....she is starting it and i hate it....nobody ever rolled the eyes to me before....lol.... doesnt make you feel old?.....

  • nytquill17 said on Feb 16, 2007....
    I have kind of a different take on this.  I don't have children of my own so you parents out there are welcome to write me off, because I know that's a part of human existence you can't completely understand unless you've done it yourself.

    But I think that the whole "kids these days" is a concept of our own making, more or less.  Granted, TV and movies and commercials and everything else are certainly having their effects.  But I think a lot of what's happening to make us feel that children are spiralling out of control ever younger is just that we're talking about it.  There was an article on MSNBC not too long ago about a survey on sexual activity in older people, and they found that a significant proportion of our grandparents' generation had had premarital sex - if I recall, about equal to the percentage of our own generation that admit to it.  The difference is simply that back then, it was very hush-hush, not something you admitted to, and now it's not.  The fact that the percentages are so similar makes me think, to paraphrase an old saying, "human nature will out."  We are sexual beings once puberty hits and if society prohibits us being sexual, we'll find a way around.

    Add to that the fact that better nutrition and health care is pushing puberty earlier and earlier.  I discovered masturbation at age 8 and had my first period at 11.  My dad kept insisting I had "developped" early (this terrified him, by the way!) but these days if you're 13 and haven't got your period yet it's a big deal.  Not too long ago, 13 was the YOUNG end of puberty.

    I knew girls in school who were having sex by 11 and 12.  I'm sure my dad knew a few "early bloomers" in his school days - but he doesn't talk about it.  My theory is that 10-12 is a very normal age for kids to get interested in sex (maybe a slightly older age range as you go farther back; again with the puberty-health connection), but that our parents, grandparents, etc. didn't talk about it.  Kids learned from their friends, giggled together in dark corners, and so on, but because it happened in such secrecy, what got passed on to us is that it didn't happen at all.  And suddenly we discover this in our own children and as far as we know it's never happened before - but in reality it's been happening all along.

    Think about what you consider the "good old days" within the span of your own life. Most people remember their childhood and adolescence fondly, and we wish we could go back to a simpler time.  But remember having to always ask for permission, even just to eat a snack? or for a ride when you wanted to go somewhere?  how much time you spent in school or doing homework?  Certainly the times are changing, I don't deny it, but we also have a tendency to gloss over the past, even when it's not that distant to us.   And I think we have to take that into account.

    That's my theory, anyway!  Forgive me for getting all academic when this is really a more emotional subject.  You guys just got me to thinking is all.

    And it doesn't make it any less disturbing, difficult, or awkward when a child starts using "those words," or starts finding new peer groups that make us worry, or starts liking the opposite sex...it's a minefield!  I just think people forget that, with the exception of the added difficulties modern technology imposes, it always has been one.  At least now it's a minefield we can stumble through in the light instead of in darkness and secrecy - but I think it'll always be a stumble :)
  • hotaka said on Feb 16, 2007....

    JadeLondon, another interesting and well written post,

    LJ, what insight you have and how clearly you express your thoughts.

    I can't believe it. The seven-year-old boy in the next room just said, "Shit," and he's Japanese.

    I remember in grade four one boy spreading rumours that he had seen another boy and a girl having sex.

    Ah! He said it again!

    In grade three one boy told me he heard another boy say, "F-U-C-K Flushing down the toilet today." It was the first time I heard the word but somehow I knew what it meant.

    Damn that kid. He keeps saying shit! He's seven and a non-native speaker. Someone ought to tell him it doesn't sound nice. He's spoiling my concetration.

    Ah! Again!

  • JadeLondon said on Feb 17, 2007....
    Silver: I agree, but don't discount yourself.

    Ginger: I've always wondered how different it would be to raise a girl, especially once the teen years began.

    Nytquill: You won't have me chasing you from the room. I am inclined to agree.

    As mentioned prior, I believe mass media is the biggest culprit. I also think the Internet plays a large role. So much information--and misinformation--can be found at one's fingertips.

    And we needn't leave our house, even (no wonder we, as a people, are growing more obese!).

    Anyway, I can remember my mother banning my brother and I from watching The Simpsons because the words 'damn' and 'ass' shouldn't be used in a cartoon. And then the hoopla that ensued after Murphy Brown had a child out of wedlock (OMG!).

    Last summer, a local television station in my city used 'boobs' as the major selling point in their weekday evening lineup.

    Hotaka: Did he ever stop his cursing? I am still giggling about that! :)

    One of my twelve-year-old classmates told me she had lost her virginity at eleven. Although I was very curious, I think I was more frightened at that age. Not because I feared the unknown, but because I was too aware of the consequences: possible disease and pregnancy. Not to mention that it sounded like it might be a little painful (glad I got over that! :D)

    And thanks for the compliment, Hotaka. Did you see that my subscribers are now listed in order of longevity? You are at the top.

  • hotaka said on Feb 17, 2007....

    Does that mean I am getting old or should I be pleased about being on top?

    I think that kid swore seven times. He was playing a card game with the Japanese teacher. I have never heard him use that word before so I wonder where he picked it up.

  • hotaka said on Feb 17, 2007....
    As far as that rumour went, I later learned that spreading rumours about other kids and sexual activity was normal. I became a victim in grade eight when a boy a year older than me kept insisting that he had photos of me having sex with another boy (I should have asked why he was so interested in keeping photos of guys having sex but I am sure it would have backfired against me). One girl asked me straight out, "Are you gay?" I don't hold anything against homosexuality but as I am not gay and I was only 13 and a small fish in a big pond I was sure glad when a female friend next to me stoutly answered, "He's not gay. I know."
  • JadeLondon said on Feb 17, 2007....
    Hotaka: The listing--take it as you like--except in reference to your age! You know, though, it makes it difficult to track down my new subscribers.

    My high school tramas involve remarks addressed to me directly, as opposed to rumors. But directly or no, it bites. I wasn't shedding any tears upon Graduation Day--I was glad to leave.

  • hotaka said on Feb 17, 2007....
    Yeah. I was pretty disappointed with school life in grade 12. Who were the people giving the speeches and who were their friends they talked about? I didn't get the jokes. I wasn't part of anything anymore. I just wanted out.
  • JadeLondon said on Feb 17, 2007....
    Hotaka: I've always felt something of an outsider looking in. Adulthood seems to have evened things out a bit.
  • hotaka said on Feb 20, 2007....
    Yeah, I know what you mean. Now I found a bunch of other outsiders-looking-in to hang out with.
  • JadeLondon said on Feb 20, 2007....
    Hotaka: Yes, I think we did. **smiles**
  • Susmaryosep said on Jun 06, 2007....
    Talking about Lesbians, did you visit 'queenparanoia'? This is a loaded question! hahahaha

  • JadeLondon said on Jun 06, 2007....
    Yes, I know QueenParanoia, she has a certain boldness that I can only envy.

    I inadvertedly discovered something about myself in connection to the world of SoulCast that freaked me out. It blows any of this discussion out of the water. I may post about it, but seriously, it may compound the issue.

    Let's just say this: anonymous or no, watch what you write. You never know what bits of your thread will be woven into the World Wide Web, and you may not like the results.

  • lioneljay said on Jun 06, 2007....
    Whoa, a Jade sighting! Good to see you, JL. :rose:
  • Susmaryosep said on Jun 07, 2007....
    Ya JL, very true... What goes round can come around.... It's scary!!

  • JadeLondon said on Jun 07, 2007....
    LJ: Thanks! It's good to see you, too. :)

    Sus: Only goes to show how twisted the simplest statements can become!

  • Susmaryosep said on Jun 07, 2007....
    Not as twisted as the ropes that queenparanoia uses to tie lesbians.... hahahahahahah

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