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Yesterday, I posted about my experience with an intruder in my motel room during my move to Mexico.  At the end of the story, I told how I remained somewhat traumatized for a while after that happened, and because of my fear, I let my new boyfriend move in with me, because I felt safer with him in the house.  That got me to thinking about other times in my life when I've relied on a man's company to protect me or give me a sense of security in the face of danger (real, perceived or potential) from another man or men. 
 
For example, I wanted very much to go to Morocco the first time that I traveled to Europe, but I'd heard that it was very unsafe for women traveling alone, as I was, so I didn't go.  Years later, I finally got to go with an old boyfriend, and we had a great time.  But I think I would have had to deal with a lot of harassment, or worse, if I didn't have him with me. 
 
I'm probably not the best person to be writing about this, because I don't often turn to men for protection.  But my point is that many women do.  We live in a world that is much more dangerous than most men can even imagine.  Sure, men get mugged, and murdered, etc., too, but women are much easier prey when you consider the relative sizes and strength of the average male and the average female, so we get attacked much more often, whether on the streets by a stranger, or in our homes by a "loved one."  And when a man is attacked by another man, his strength is usually more evenly matched with his assailant's and so, he's at least got a fighting chance, unless there's a weapon involved.  When a woman is attacked, it's usually by a man, and any woman who's taken a decent self defense class can tell you that even the smallest of men is harder to fight off than the largest woman. 
 
So, what do we do with this fear that we live with, on some level or another of our consciousness, on a daily basis?  A lot of times, we turn to men for protection.  Like me having my boyfriend move in with me, or finding a male travel partner.  And when I lost my virginity in a date rape, who did I turn to for comfort and consolation?  .... the guy who had just raped me.   I'm sure the rest of you can think of plenty of other examples from your own lives. 
 
Why am I writing about this?  Because it makes me so angry!  When you think about it, here we (women) are living in a world made dangerous for us, largely by men.  And who do we turn to for protection?  Men.  In other words, our oppressors are also our protectors?  How sick is that?   Did you ever think that the world is set up in this way just for that very purpose... that men create this dangerous world for us to live in, specifically so that we will turn to them for protection... so that we will need them? 
 
Yes, yes, I know that there are no board rooms full of men, sitting around deciding these things.  But that's not how social institutions are created over the long run anyway.  Do you think that there is something deep in the male psyche that tells them to create a world in which they might be considered indispensible to the female of the species?  (and this was the only idea they could come up with?)  Could it be a survival mechanism, because science will soon make them obsolete (for reproductive purposes), and, somehow, that knowledge was programmed into primitive man?  Okay, that was a little tongue in cheek, but seriously,
 
If you are a woman, do you rely on men for protection from other men, and if so, does it make you angry?
 
If you are a man, what thoughts do you have on this.  Can you see how our world is different from yours because of our (typically) physical disadvantages?  How would you deal with it if the shoe were on the other foot?
 


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Comments

  • silverwhisper said on Feb 01, 2007....
    i honestly don't know how i would respond to it. the simple fact is that i have no exposure to such a situation or being socialized in such a situation, so i have absolutely no idea how many of my notions of what are/aren't right would be changed accordingly.

    but there are 2 things i want to say:

    1. people judging people solely on the basis of their gender depresses me.

    2. rape enrages me, as it does most men. i'm generally a relatively calm and non-violent sorta guy. the fastest way to reduce me to a neanderthal is to invoke the idea of rape, or other violence targeted at women.

    ed
  • deftnha said on Feb 01, 2007....
    Some very good points there.
    I generally agree but in general i also try to avoid generalising about such things. There are many men who feel threatened (by other men and by women) and many women who don't feel threatened at all. But if you were to re-phrase it in terms of physically (or even in some cases mentally) weaker people being subtly forced into accepting the protection of the very same stronger people who make them feel threatened then i would agree without any qualms or hesitation whatsoever.
    Does that make any sense? I have a feeling the grammar got a bit twisted somewhere in that last sentence.
  • kruuyai said on Feb 01, 2007....

    it's true... it's difficult or impossible to know how you would react in a situation that you've never been exposed to.  Like deftnha pointed out, it can happen to men in different contexts... maybe something work related, and maybe with something analogous to the violence being some other type of extortion, or harassment, and sometimes even male on male violence and bullying, but that's not really what I'm trying to do with this post. 

    I really did want to talk about the gender issue.  Because I think it's real, and if we get too caught up with trying to be politically correct, we can't discuss this with any authenticity or relevance.  So, let's throw PC out the window for a moment and take an honest look at what different worlds the two genders live in.  I think I threw enough disclaimers in the original post to convince anyone that I don't believe that all women are trembling in their boots at every moment, and that men never experience fear.  But this really is a discussion about generalities, and in general, women are much more likely to be the victims of violent crimes, and their assailants are much more likely to be men.  No, I didn't do any research to gather statistics, but if you're not convinced of this just from your own life experience and what you see happening around you, then I'm sure you wouldn't have any trouble verifying it with a quick google search. 

    ed:  I'm glad that there are guys (and I think there are a lot of them) who think and feel the way that you do.  As women, we rely, to a great extent, on the benevolence of what is hopefully most men, to steer away from the "might makes right" type of mentality.  And yet, that's just the crux of what I'm trying to say here... and I don't know if I'm doing a very good job of it.  It's like... by turning to men, like yourself, we are perpetuating our dependence instead of taking it for ourselves.   We're relying on your benevolence, which doesn't do much to empower us.

    Many communities around the world organize an annual Take Back the Night to protest violence and harassment on the streets.  It's a start, but it's one night a year, and where does it go from there?  And please, let's not limit our discussion to the United States.  There are a lot of places in the world where women have to endure much more oppressive regimes.  Imagine women living under Taliban rule in Afghanistan.  I saw a movie about a woman and her daughter in Afghanistan.  Women were not allowed to work or even to leave the home, I think.  But the father had died, and they had no way to support themselves, so the daughter disguised herself as a boy and went out to work, and if I remember correctly, she was killed when they found her out.  Think about the implications of living in a society like that.  Women must be totally dependent on men, and provide for the men's needs in the home, but when the man is gone, there is no mechanism to take care of the women's needs.  I'm not sure that I can think of an analogy in our society.  I'm kind of hoping there isn't one.

    deftnha:  I think I addressed your comment above (I hope?)  I know I should organize my thoughts better.  It's just not flowing tonight.  But I hope I'm conveying at least a part of what I'm trying to say.  Now I'd better hit "submit" and hope this doesn't get chewed up by the truncating demon.

  • secretlife said on Feb 01, 2007....

    kruu:  you know, i'm not a believer that it is 'men' who've been my oppressor.  Nor do I look to men for 'protection'....

    i'll admit i've looked to men for many things, but not for protection. 

    when i traveled for business, although it was within the US, I would often travel alone.  I wasn't afraid.  I was cautious, but not afraid. 

    Alot of the stories coming out this week on here are about sexual abuse ...men on children.  I don't see that as the same issue.    Several have been about rape.  Rape is a crime of anger.  I agree with ed, that the vast majority of men you would talk to would tell you that rape enrages them as much as it enrages us. 

    i like men.

    i'm not afraid of them.  i don't think of them as predators.

    i know some men are.  just as i know some women are.

    i'm 5'6 and 140 lbs.  Alot of men are bigger than me.  But I don't feel physically threatened because i might be smaller.  i don't feel at a physical disadvantage although i'm sure i would be if attacked by a 6' 200 lb man.  i do know this,  I'd sure go down fighting....

    it's like that saying......one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch...

     

    Are you speaking because of your experience traveling here?  Of the treatment of women in other countries?  Because I'm sure I'd agree with you that in many many countries, women are certainly 2nd or 3rd class citizens.....certainly subserviant to men.  And in that context i can agree that women might use men for protection more often....

     

  • silverwhisper said on Feb 01, 2007....
    kruuyai: the only way in which women can be self-reliant in this sense is to train in a martial art of some kind and hope the perp doesn't have a weapon of some kind. many gun rights advocates point to the gun as "the great equalizer", but honestly, i don't really know how happy many people would be to draw a weapon in anger and use it.

    having said that: that still doesn't really address the matter b/c ultimately i think there are far more men than women involved in the martial arts, but it's a start, no?

    ed
  • purrrkitten said on Feb 01, 2007....

    See? Now THIS I totally understand. I've been in your position. I was brought up to believe that I needed a man to "take care of me" and "protect me". Anytime I brought up the subject of taking a mechanics course at college (I like fixing cars), I was treated with distain because it is a "man's job". I orginally wasn't even allowed to take karate because it was "for boys not girls" - until some wacko phoned my mother while I was at school and told her he'd kidnapped me and what he was in his bedroom right then doing to me. Then all of a sudden it was perfectly okay for me to learn how to defend myself.

    We ARE in a world that is still, for the most part, ruled by men. My DH 'protects' me but he doesn't force his protection on me - as in, if I didn't have the strength to fight for myself, he would be there to defend me. He knows that if there was ever a serious problem, I'd be right beside him defending our children - together, with him. He understands and accepts that I could NOT stand helplessly by while expecting him to protect me and the kids too. No other man I've ever been with could accept that.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is: not all men are predators (tho there are far, FAR too many of them) and not all men force women to accept them as protectors (tho again, many of them do). However, there always seems to be two predators willing to offer their "protection" for every one, good, wholesome man who is willing to treat women as equals - not in strength, as per say, but as people.

    We aren't as strong physically but we are ( I guess in balance to the other) stronger emotionally and we can handle more physical pain than men. Our bodies are stronger in that we can bear children, carry them safely from the outside world, protect them with our bodies, and then when they arrive in the world protect them with the love and strength of a mother bear. In some ways, I would say we are a lot stronger than men.

    Whew. Shutting up now.... ~^^

  • kruuyai said on Feb 01, 2007....

    I knew I'd be opening up a can of worms with this topic, but that's okay... the pot needs to get stirred every once in a while.

    secret: Believe it or not, I'm a lot like you.  The two examples I gave of turning to men for protection may very well be the only two times I've done that.  For the most part, I'm a pretty independent woman.  I've done most of my traveling alone, both in the US and abroad, and I've seldom had a frightening moment.  The trauma from the guy breaking into my motel room was pretty short lived, but did have some consequences, as I've mentioned.  Two of my three careers were also in male dominated industries, and I've never really felt any discrimination either as far as promotions or wages.  It seems that I was always compensated based on my performance.  So, regardless of what I may have experienced as a child, I have not gone through my life feeling like a victim (except for in my earlier romances... but that's another issue entirely). 

    So, this post was not meant to be an all-out attack on men.  I'm really just trying to examine the phenomenon whereby members of a "wronged" group will turn for protection or justice to members of the group that wronged them.  I could have done as deftnha suggested, just talked about it in general terms, but it was specifically the male/female dynamic (on a societal level) that drew my attention to this situation, and I find it a lot easier to discuss something in concrete terms than in broad and sweeping generalities, but all of you are more than welcome to phrase things however you would like.

    secret:  You said "i'm not a believer that it is 'men' who've been my oppressor."  That is a very poignant remark, and it's part of what I'm trying (so unsucessfully, it seems) to say.  In a society like we have in the US, I think that there are many women who feel the same way that you do.  I'm one of them, and it's mostly a matter of attitude.  We've decided not to let things hold us back, but that doesn't change the fact that the streets in many of our cities and even the suburbs are not safe for us. 

    But getting back to the point... I'll agree with your statement by adding a word to it... it is not just men that are our oppressors.  We do it to ourselves by relying on them to protect us from them.  Sometimes, we don't have a choice... our court systems are largely run by men even though women are more than half the population, and our lawmakers are mostly men, even though women are more than half the population. 

    Some of us are more fortunate than others.  We were not all raised to believe that we were "less than" or should be dependent on men, just because we were women. I wasn't raised that way.  My mom always worked, and I always expected to work or have a career... it never would have occurred to me not to.  And you ask if this is coming from me because of my history with abuse.  Ironically, I think it's just the opposite.  Because my father was so abusive, and unlike most abusive parents,. never showed any affection whatsoever, I never thought of him as someone I could turn to for protection... so that wasn't ingrained in me.  The two times in my life that I can think of that I turned to a man for protection were one time when the risk was carefully thought out, and the other time was in the aftermath of a trauma.  I'm going to submit now so this doesn't get truncated and continue.

  • secretlife said on Feb 01, 2007....

    kruu:  i didn't assume this had anything to do with abuse. 

    i did perhaps think it had something to do with your lifestyle and the fact that you find yourself traveling in foreign countries.  I don't know how i'd feel away from my homeland....i might have a bad experience and feel the need for protection.  but if you found yourself with a female traveling companion, would you feel any less vulnerable?  i think i would.

    i can only speak to how i feel and my own experiences in middle class amercia. 

    kruu i work for a fortune 500 global corporation.  I see equal numbers of women vice presidents as men these days.  in fact, we just hired a woman CIO.  These women came from other major corporations and have worked more than 20 yrs in business.  I've seen so many more women in our courts...women lawyers, women politicians....my local town governement is 1/2 comprised of women.

    we have a voice.  we have a say.  we have a presence.

    someday, in my lifetime maybe, we'll see a woman president or vice president.

    if the streets in our cities are unsafe, i believe they are unsafe for everyone...men and women alike.  i really do.   and on my home streets, i feel safe.  again, perhaps i'm naive.  i exercise caution.  i'm aware of what's going on in my neighborhood and the surrounding ones.  i'm home when my kids are.  i moved here because i thought it was safe.  not just for me..for all of us.  i had no man/woman thing going on..i wanted my entire family, husband included, to feel safe.

    i gotta get on a call...i'm late as it is.

     

  • kruuyai said on Feb 01, 2007....

    secret:  I'm still on yours.  "I agree with ed, that the vast majority of men you would talk to would tell you that rape enrages them as much as it enrages us."  I'm sure that's true.  I know it is..  In fact, I've even known some rapists that would tell you that.  I'm not saying that to be facetious.  I truly do know at least one rapist and one incest perpetrator that would get livid over the idea of someone else doing exactly what they have done.  Why?  Because they don't admit to themselves what they have done.  And no... I am not implying that ed or anyone else you know who may have similar sentiments is or might be a perpetrator.  I am saying that, we can't walk down the street and look at guys and say, I think this guy might be a perpetrator, but I don't think this guy is.  The point is, we don't know who is until it happens (usually).  So, even if many of us don't walk around in conscious fear, the knowledge that there are so many out there, has to affect us on some level.  I think. 

    And for a minute... let's say that there are no perpetrators.  I wonder how just the relative differences in physical strength affect us on a subconscious level.  I mean, if all men were just great big, loveable teddy bears, would that physical difference still have the same effect?  I have no idea.  Just tossing out ideas now.

    Regarding your last statement about women in other countries, I would agree that, yes, the issues that I'm trying to raise here are certainly more evident and visible than they are in most "first world" countries.  It wasn't all that long ago that we were closer to their plight, but we have made advances.  Still, legal advances are not really what I'm trying to get at either.  This is a difficult topic to get at, I think because there are so many tangents that you can go off on, and as I'm writing, I continually find myself going off on tangents.

    Here's another question for the men, just to get back on track... have you ever been in the position of having to defend or protect a woman, and if so, how did you feel about it? 

     

  • silverwhisper said on Feb 01, 2007....
    no i have not, and frankly, i'm glad. b/c if i had been, i would very likely be in prison for either aggravated assault or some form of homicide/murder. i am not a violent person by nature, but rape isn't something i would wish on my most hated enemy. i have seen what it does to people, both men and women.

    and b/c of that, i would cheerfully kill the attacker and do my time w/ a song in my heart. b/c against such a person, i would revert back to a savage. not merely b/c of my rage that this was happening, but for all the people i've known who didn't have someone to protect them.

    i don't pretend that this is a good thing or an enlightened thing. hell, i've blogged about it before. it would be an ugly thing.

    but i absolutely consider it a necessary thing.

    ed
  • kruuyai said on Feb 01, 2007....

    secret:  boy, you're fast..  I think we were both posting at the same time.  Let me address your latest before I go on to the others.  "if you found yourself with a female traveling companion, would you feel any less vulnerable?  i think i would."  Yes, I would, too.  Actually, I don't generally feel all that vulnerable. I take a lot of precautions.  But sure, there's always strength in numbers, and a lone person of either gender is more vulnerable to attack than two people together... usually.  I don't think that I would necessarily have felt much less vulnerable traveling with a female companion in Morocco.  That's because of both the cultures and the laws in that country.  From what I understand, there really are no laws to protect women in that country (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), so a couple of women could very easily be abducted in broad daylight and probably nobody would do anything about it (at least that was the impression I was given.. I didn't want to take a chance).  I heard of one incident where a female tourist was raped on a beach and went to report it to the police.  The police just laughed and asked her what she was doing on the beach.  I heard a worse story in Mexico (and I lived there alone for three out of four years)... a woman was harassed on a bus by some guys that she knew and had thought were her friends.  She told a female friend about it.. the female friend went to the police station to report the incident, and the police raped her.  But, I'm getting off the track again.

    "we have a voice.  we have a say.  we have a presence.

    someday, in my lifetime maybe, we'll see a woman president or vice president."

    I'm not denying that.  I just hope that if we do have a woman president, that she will be one who supports women's rights.  So often, the minorities who succeed in politics are the ones who sell out to the good old boy system, and then, who cares?  I'll vote for a woman if I agree on her positions, but if I think she'll turn around and be a worse oppressor than the guy she's running against, I'll vote for the guy.  Hmmm, that didn't come out right.. it sounds like the guy is automatically the opressor... which is not what I meant.  Anyway, I'm saying that I wouldn't vote for the female version of Clarence Thomas just to have a woman in the White House.

    "if the streets in our cities are unsafe, i believe they are unsafe for everyone...men and women alike."  Technically, yes.  Statistically... less so.  People who are predators prey on the weak, or at least on those that they perceive to be weak.  They are not heroes.  They're not looking for a fair fight or a good workout.  They want it easy.  Which means that women (and children) generally have more to worry about than men...

    come to think of it... I know you stated earlier that the example of pedophilia was really a different issue, but I think, at least in most cases of incest, or even just plain old physical abuse perpetrated by a parent on a child... it really is the same issue, and maybe even a better example of what I'm trying to illustrate.  Because, (although this wasn't true in my case), the parent and abused child often have a very twisted relationship that alternates between abuse and nurture.  (I've been in therapy with enough people who were beaten as children, and often wondered how they could maintain a close relationship with their abusers into adulthood, until a therapist expained this dynamic to me... the same is true for many women who experience consistent domestic violence... their mates go through a period of regret and act very tenderly, and promise that it'll never happen again, until the next time).  But in the case of child abuse, it's very clear.  The very person who is supposed to be protecting the child is the one who is violating that child's safety, and in turn, is the only person that the child has to turn to for protection.

    Hey.. secret!  I think I just had a breakthrough!  I've been struggling with trying to articulate what I was trying to say all night, and having such a hard time, and I think something just became clear to me.  Maybe the reason I have so much anger about this male/female dynamic that I've been talking about (I still believe it exists, and affects many women all over the world) but the reason it's coming up for me, may be because of my issues as an abused child.  I didn't think so, but if the original anger came from having been abused by the very person who was morally obligated to protect me from the world (even though I never consciously expected protection from him), then, of course I would project that energy onto my future relationships.  Incidentally, there was an uncanny resemblence between the events leading up to my date rape when I was 18 and the incestuous experience I had as a child.

    Hmmmmmmmmmm.... although this doesn't invalidate my argument, it certainly sheds some light on it, at least for myself.   I think this is why it's such a sticky subject.  Because it's so pervasive in so many areas of our lives.  The face it wears is varied from person to person, from childhood to adulthood, from country to country, from race to race.... but it's really an important issue. 

    Thanks for the aha, secret.  I'll have to keep working on this.

  • kruuyai said on Feb 01, 2007....

    ed:  I agree that guns are not the answer if for no other reason than the fact that weapons are more often used against the person that they were supposed to protect.  Let's face it, what are you going to do... walk down the street with a loaded gun in your hand?  Or if someone jumps you, say, 'could you hold on a minute?  I've got to get something out of my purse."

    Regarding the martial arts thing... I think that the kind of guy who typically studies martial arts is not the kind of guy who goes out and attacks women.  It's so counter to everything that they are trained for mentally.  I think most predators probably don't have a lot of skills.  They are successful in their attacks mostly because of the element of surprise, their relative strength, any weapons they might have, and the fact that most women don't fight back, or don't know how.  So yes, I believe that taking martial arts training and/or a self defense course would be extremely helpful.

    ed, I'll have to click on your link in a bit, after I finish commenting on the comments.  Thanks for stopping back.  :)

  • kruuyai said on Feb 01, 2007....

    purr:  It seems like you got what I was trying to say.  I liked the visual I got of you and your husband and kids standing up together and protecting your home (I couldn't see the invaders, but I got a clear sense of the family unity).  That's great.  And you are right.. we may not have the physical strength that equals a man's, but we are strong in a lot of ways that they aren't.  In a self defense class I took, they taught us how to use the differences betweeen the male and female physique to our advantage (males are top heavy and women have most of our strength in our legs and hips).  Even so, their legs are still stronger than ours, so we have to use our brains as much as our bodies when we fight them. 

    I think you're right, too, that, in general, we are stronger emotionally, and we tolerate a lot more pain... can you imagine if men had to give birth or have menstrual cramps?  I once accompanied a boyfriend to a tatoo parlor, and the tatoo artist told me that the guys always made a bigger fuss than the women.  :)

  • kruuyai said on Feb 01, 2007....
    ed:  I just read your post about men's responses to rape, and I left my comment there.  I have to say I was highly impressed both by the quality of the post and by the comments that were left there.  I would highly recommend reading it to anyone that passes by here and is interested in the topic.  I think the comments that hit on the sense of "ownership" that some men may feel in their anger toward this crime may hit the nail right on the head.  A hard thing to admit... all the more impressive that this observation came from a guy.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 01, 2007....
    kruuyai: i saw that--thank you! it's something that chimaera and i have discussed previously. :>

    ed
  • gingersoul said on Feb 01, 2007....

    Kruu.....i believe that Internet is helping  women a lot. Its already helping them in having a possibility to work at home and take care of their families at the same time. To have a wider access to information. To get in contact with different point of view. Opening a window to other countries realities.

    This bring directly to an internet that frees women of their physicality too. Precious quality in a world that is still conjugated in male. A lot of women can open business on internet without being discrimanate for their sex. And without fear of being maybe exposed.

    Because this is the norm: even in the most dangerous war zone the women are the less safe of all. No man has to fear what women have to experience in war times. Adding sexual violence to violence. In no war men had to face the horror that happened, for example, in the Balcans war where the women of an ethnic group have been sistematically ingravidated by the men of the fighting ethnic group: Serbians against Croatians in what has been called the Ethnic cleansing..

    "Ethnic cleansing" is a term for the mass expulsion, killing and raping of people. In this war it has been carried out mainly by Serb paramilitaries and the army. These acts meet the legal definition of genocide—the attempt to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. Many civilians were, and are being killed, others were, and are being forced from their homes to become refugees or into concentration camps.

    In the wars of ethnic cleansing in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, sexual abuse and violence against women was central in the planned policy of "ethnic cleansing." When the Yugoslav Federal Army shelled cities in Bosnia, maternity hospitals were targeted. Special concentration camps were set-up to rape and prostitute women; these hotels and prisons were called rape camps by survivors. In Vogosca, near Sarajevo, Bosnia women with Croat and Muslim names were killed after they were raped; in Foca, the Serbs held women for months in an indoor sports arena where nightly men would come with flashlights to make their choices for rape; at Omarska, women were forced by Serb soldiers to work during the day and were raped according to a schedule, once every four nights (Gutman 1993).

    From the start of the war in Bosnia in 1992, Serbian paramilitary forces committed systematic rape against Muslim and Croat women. Later, in Spring 1993, Bosnian Croat nationalists adopted the strategy to create an ethnically pure Croatian sector (Gutman 1994). Forces of the predominantly Muslim government of Bosnia have also been charged with atrocities, but these do not appear to be government policy as with the Serbs. Women of all nationalities have been raped, but Muslim women have been disproportionately among the victims, and Serbian paramilitaries disproportionately among the rapists (Stiglmayer 1994). Also implicated in the sexual abuse and prostitution of women are the United Nations "peacekeeping" forces (Gutman 31 October 1993; Bernstein 21 June 1993).

    Forced impregnation has also been a weapon of nationalism and ethnic cleansing in the campaign of violence against women in Bosnia. In this constructed ideology the ethnicity of a baby is the same as its father. Serb soldiers and paramilitary troops who raped women told them that they would give birth to "little Chetniks" or Serbian soldiers, who would grow up to kill them. Other Croat or Muslim women were told that if a woman carries a Serbian baby, then she too is Serb (State Commission for Gathering Facts on War Crimes in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina October 1992). Some women were held in rape camps in Bosnia until their pregnancies were so advanced that they would not be able to obtain an abortion (Tresnjevika 28 September 1992). Since the goal of ethnic cleansing is the creation of an ethnically and nationally pure population, the forced impregnation of non-Serb women has required some twists in thinking in Serbian nationalist ideology.

    There are so many other horrors in the world right now while we write, and horrors that only women have to face. .

    Kruu, the Take the night back you talk.......i have been in one of first women movements in Italy to organize this extraordinary event  in my city...following the national growing awareness. It has been a wonderful experience. It was a simple notion: taking possess of the night meant taking the outside in our hands. Dont be afraid anymore to go anywhere we wanted to go. What a concept!

    Going outside like any man would do. Without fearing to be stalked, assaulted, raped, or simply intimidated by places or situation nor familiar.

    Personally, i never thought a man superior to me. Actually, sometimes i have even acted based on this convintion maybe too impulsively: like the time i saw this girl beaten up by her boyfriend in the street and nobody would do anything. I run to separate them and i got naturally hurt. He was 2 times bigger than me. Or when i traveled through Europe highjacking, sometimes by myself or with one friend.

    My limitation as a woman compared to the total freedom men have angers me. I am trying to teach my daughter that she can do and she can go anywhere. BUT reality is: men, statistically talking, are stronger and bigger than us. So when it will be her time i will tell her also to carry with her pepper spray (no guns, thank you), learn some self defense tecnique, learn to be aware and not naive. Dont trust too much. Give her coordinates to friends. Call home. Do boys need to be trained in this way when they go in vacation? I dont think so and simply this difference piss me off...

    Secret...i have to disagree with you about thsi though.... rape is not simply a crime of anger. Women are angry too but women don't rape. They are brought up to direct their negativity and anger in a different way. Usually against themselves.

    Man rape women because they know they CAN do it, because deep down they know they are superior and stronger. Rape is a transcultures, trans-societies crime. Rape has been present since the beginning ot humanity. They rape because they CAN. Not because they are angry. They allow themselves to committ this horrible crime only (or mostly) against who they feel inferior.

    Because even the poorest, deprived man in the world still can be so deprived and in danger as a poor deprived woman.

    Sorry for this long  comment.......:-)  

  • kruuyai said on Feb 01, 2007....

    ginger:  bless you.. don't apologize for making a long comment.  I was hoping to stimulate a thoughtful discussion, and I'm grateful for all the comments that have been made here.  I'm also glad to hear some perspectives from outside of the United States, as I didn't want to make this an ethnocentric discussion, but to talk more about the different worlds that men and women live in all over the globe. 

    After having been led to look at violence against children in the same light, I think I'd have to clarify my statement that "women live in a world that is far more dangerous than most men can even imagine."  I'll have to underline the word most, because, I think that a man who was severely abused as a child has some idea of what most women in the world live with on a daily basis.... if they are aware enough to make the extrapolation. 

    About your comment regarding the internet making it safer for women to work in safety, I think that's great, but I think it would be greater if they could be safe while going to work outside the home as well. 

    I saw a movie about a family that was recovering from the war in Bosnia.  They had immigrated to Canada, and the mother had been in one of those rape camps, but instead of being raped every four days, the women were raped a dozen times each day.  The young daughter of this family was in the rape camp with the mother, and she died because of the repeated brutal rapes.  The mother never regained her sanity.  It was a heartbreaking story.  All "methods" of "ethnic cleansing" are reprehensible, but this particular "method" seems more reprehensible to me than most.  And it is something that has been practiced since the dawn of time.  I was once having a phone conversation with a guy that I met through personal ad dating, and he was saying to me that he didn't think rape of civilians by soldiers during war time should be considered a war crime, because it had always happened during wars in order to create a new generation that had half of the victor's blood and would bring peace in the occupied region.  Needless to say, I never got together with him again.

    I've always wanted to participate in one of the Take Back the Night marches, but never have.  I think it would feel very empowering, but I wish we could take back all the nights.  I love walking at night, and I've been fortunate enough to usually live in areas where I could (except in Denver during the "Summer of Blood"), but a lot of women have not been as fortunate as me.

     "Men rape women because they know they CAN do it"  About 20 years ago, my roomate told me that when she was attending a course in a university in Texas (I forget which one) there was an anonymous survey conducted among the male students by one of the departments.  The survey had one question, "If you could rape a woman and get away with it, without any consequences to you, would you?"  I don't remember the exact percentages, but the overwhelming response was "yes."  Makes you stop and think, doesn't it?

  • waterstar said on Feb 01, 2007....

    I'm going to comment first and then finish reading the rest of the comments.  because this is the exact topic I've been thinking about in my own life situation.   I think it has alot to do with sex, more to de with coersive sex, then rape.  For the simple fact that its harder to prove, and harder to define.  The reason is this, it seems to me that there is a class of woman out there ( I include myself) who have low self-confidence (trust issues) and are looking for some protection, because they have failed to do it themself in some way.  And that there is a class of men (not all of them)  that either consciously or unconsciouly seek out women with low self confidence.    I think there might be something in our programing, I don't know how else to describe it, but I sense that there is a connection between the protector thing and the idea of "claiming" and being "claimed"

  • mom said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I don't rely on a man to protect me, I learned a long time ago that I was on my own.  A woman needs to be educated, know what to do and what not to do, an ounce of prevention is worth a pile of shit or something like that.  Women need to be cautious and smart.  Trust your gut instinct.  It is not saying that she won't be attacked but her chances are a lot smaller. 
  • beyondtheveil said on Feb 02, 2007....
    kruu- I'm sure glad you don't pick on complicated topics.....I would like to say that my feelings are quite strong for women's rights. Speaking in a very generalized way, men have been the demon from hell for all humankind. If you remove disease, famine, accidents, birth defects, natural disaster both large and small, how much of all human suffering has been caused by men?
     
    I do not know the percentage of the men who caused the suffering, it could be quite low, but the fact remains it was men. They have always wanted power and control, and they have almost always gotten it. Leaders of kingdoms and cultures have provided it, usually through conquest. Religious leaders and writers of scripture, all men, have provided it.
     
    From antiquity to this day, male dominance was always the mainstay that has filtered down through the people in every location I know of on this planet. It did not have to be that way. Have you ever wondered what human history would read like if the situation had been reversed?
     
    In a book I have, a female ruler of a kingdom around 12th century Southeast Asia spoke of the kingdoms of her area. Five were happy and prosperous and all were ruled by women. A Japanese woman after world war two said if differences between peoples were allowed to be settled by mothers, there would be no war.
     
    It's the old Nature of the Beast and we are discussing predators, rapists, child molesters, and women's rights issues, tens of thousands of years after the beginning of mankind. That is the real tragedy. Before you are able to walk home in safety, before you are able to feel safe in your motel room, the mindset of humanity must be changed. And the only way that can happen is through women in enough places of power, religious and secular. That is the only way to provide some element of balance to government, church, law, and moral persuasion to allow it to happen.
     
    But, in the words of Dennis Miller, "that's just my opinion".
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 02, 2007....
    kruuyai: i want to see an actual poll before i trust what a roomful of probably hungover and resentful college kids said to a hypothetical question.

    ed
  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....
    ed:  a poll on what? I'm getting confused.  I just logged on this morning, and there are so many issues flying around here.
  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....
    ed: oh, now I know what you mean... you're talking about the survey in the Texas university.  Yeah, I'm sure that did not represent an unbiased cross-section of men across America, or the world for that matter.  And the trouble with anonymous and subjective polls, is that while on the one hand, it encourages honesty... it can also encourage people to play games.  When I was writing about that survey, the thought crossed my mind of posting the same survey here on SC, but then I thought about how impossible it would be to make sure that all the respondents were actually males, that they only voted once, etc.
  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    waterstar: You make some good points.  I think the reason that whole idea of "claiming" turns me off so much is that, to me, it speaks of "ownership" or at least an attitude of ownership rather than relationship and two people coming together and honoring each other.  Alyss asked a couple of days ago, "Just how do you stake your claim?"  (see related posts below).  I think that a lot of people stake their claim in a sexual way.  Sort of like, "I've had sex with you... now you're mine." This is an attitude we see in both genders, and to me, it smacks of posession rather than love.  Kind of like a dog pissing on a fire hydrant.  No thank you. 

    And I think (no, I know from my own experience) that you're right about there being a certain class of men who either consciously or subconsciously seek women with a low self esteem.  Of course, it happens the other way around, too, but at least in what I've been able to observe, it happens the first way more often.  I don't know if that's because there are more women with low self esteem, or because the men also have low self esteems, but work it out in a different way than the women do... by victimizing instead of being victimized. 

    Speaking of victimization, I think it's important for people who repeatedly find themselves being victimized to take a look at how they might be contributing to their own victimization.  I do not mean that people who are victims are responsible for the behavior of those who victimize them.  Not at all.  We are all responsible for our own behaviors.  And although we can't changed the behavior of those who would prey on us, we can certainly take steps to remove ourselves from situations where we are likely to be victimized.  This is not to blame ourselves for our victimization.  Especially, because, for a huge proportion of us who have been victims, that cycle of victimization started when we were too young to have any control over the situations that we found ourselves in.  But the abuse often sets up a pattern for life... something that programs us to be drawn to people who are likely to abuse us.  If we can each recognize our own patterns and take steps to change those, then we can begin to liberate ourselves from the past, take responsibility for our own lives, and stop being victims.

  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....
    ed: getting back to the same issue (about the survey)... I think even without a survey, we can see that there is a certain (growing) class of men, in America at least, who would answer yes to that question.  The class I'm talking about is the college athlete, because they know that in most cases, they can get away with it, and they do.  They are protected by the college leadership (because they are a source of revenue for the college), and because of that, the incidence of rapes perpetrated by college athletes has risen dramatically.  Again, I don't have time to search for statistics, but for anybody who's interested, I'm sure they wouldn't be hard to find.  And if anyone does go to the trouble of looking up stats, please feel free to post a link here.
  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    mom:  You are absolutely right that there is a certain something that a woman can carry with her at all times that will dramatically decrease the probability of her being chosen as a victim.  In my self defense class, they called it Zan-Chin.  It's not a knife, or a gun or anything that you can hold in your hand, but it is a formidable weapon, more commonly known as a "don't fuck wit' me" attitude.  Awareness of our surroundings is key to maintaining this attitude.  How many of us go around afraid to look and really see what's happening around us as we walk down the street, afraid to scope out the situation and take steps to avoid danger, like crossing the street, if necessary?  How many of us are afraid to make eye contact?  We walk around hunched over, with our eyes on the ground, hoping that no one will notice us, and it has just the opposite effect.  It's like crying out, "Me, me!  Pick me!  I want to be the next victim!"  An easy victim is much more appealing to an attacker. 

  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    beyond:  yeah, I thought this would just be a nice, lighthearted discussion, the kind of place where you could go to pick up a few good one-liners.   lol :)  I don't know... it's just something that's on my mind from time to time, and I thought I'd see what other people had to say.

    There actually was a time when most of the world's religions were matriarchal in nature, and women were celebrated as the life givers... the fertility of the earth was celebrated, etc.  That has all changed drastically, obviously.  I don't have much information on what life was like under the pre-patriarchal religions.  I would like to learn more about it.  A lot of people like to point to recent female political leaders like Margaret Thatcher to say that life wouldn't be any different under female leadership, but I think that women like her are aberrations rather than the norm.  I think it's sad that the only women who seem to succeed in high level politics are the ones who embrace the male ideals of agression (sometimes more than a lot of the male leaders).  I think a similar statement can be made about women who move up the corporate (American) ladder.  They are usually the ones who have learned to play the game, in the male way.  I don't see much evidence of female values being embraced in business, even though women are having more success in that arena.  That's why I don't think we're completely emancipated... if we were, our nature would be just as valued in the business world instead of being seen as weak.  I know some people will take issue with my views.  That's okay.  I'm more than willing to listen to what they have to say.

    Well, once again, I, we, have strayed far from the original topic (not altogether a bad thing... some important points have been raised and discussed).  Does anyone have any more input on the idea of people turning for protection to the very people who have opressed them, preyed upon them, or otherwise abused them?

  • peedee said on Feb 02, 2007....

    Hi !kruuyai, it is a wonderful,true and a very pathetic picture which the woman has to face. The degeneration that has crept into a man is responsible for all the ills of a woman. There are countless  people who are on the prowl. There are news galore,  a 60 year old man raping a three year old baby girl, the uncle raping a 11yr old niece, the grandfather raping a grand daughter 10yrs old and so on. Those such bastards need to given an exemplary punishment by the respective administration and untill this is not done the poor woman  will be unable to protect herself .

    pd 

  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    peedee:  hi!  "wonderful, true and very pathetic,"  I had to chuckle when I read your description.  There aren't too many things that can be described with that eclectic combination of words. And yet... womanhood is probably one of them... there are a lot of wonderful things about being a woman.  And there are a lot of pathetic things... it's true!  :) 

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that the woman will be unable to protect herself... there are certainly things we can do to protect ourselves.  But when the "deeds" are actually condoned by the society, whether by law or otherwise, it is a lot more difficult.  I think you said you are in India, right?  What is the status of the "kitchen fire" or "dowry fire" murders these days?  What recourse, if any, do the women have if they suspect that their husband is planning a kitchen fire for them?  Has the government taken any steps to change this unconscionable situation?

  • moonriver said on Feb 02, 2007....
    interesting discussion. at a close personal or psychological level, stockholm syndrome comes to mind. at a wider social scale, patriarchy was created (and is being perpetiated) by a powerful cabal of men. its practices and impact trickle down to the rest of society, oppressing both men and women alike, but women generally worse off, not simply because they might be "smaller and weaker" physically, but because patriarchy was designed exactly like that. a self-perpetuating mechanism unless society overhauls itself to shed off all legacies of patriarchy.

  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
    dang this submit comment
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
    dang this submit
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
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  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
    dang
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
    dang this submit comment won't work..
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
    dang this submit comment won't work..
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
    dang this submit comment won't
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
    dang this
  • mommyof2 said on Feb 02, 2007....
    I get what you're saying kruuyai....no wonder women turn to women
    dang this submit comment won't work..
  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    muunie!  *kruuyai wags tail and pants enthusiastically, waiting for pat on head*  Please edify me... what is Stockholm Syndrome?  Are you saying that patriarchy was consciously created by a specific group?  I'd like to know more about the history of that.... any references you can throw my way would be more than appreciated. 

    mommyof2: lol. Having a little trouble with the "submit" button, are we?  I started to erase the extras, but each time I hit delete, it brings me back up to the top of the page, and then I have this weird delay feature on being able to scroll back down... too much work, so they stay.  Thanks for your persistence!  Your voice has been heard and duly noted!  :)

  • peedee said on Feb 02, 2007....

    Hi !kruuyai, in ancient times the woman was the most respected person in the Indian society.  We have Goddesses called 'MOTHER' whom people worship in large numbers. It was the woman who chose her husband who qualified a certain test laid down by the family of the girl.With the passage of time the things were reversed and the institution of marriage was defiled by the social evil of dowry. Kitchen fires and the Dowry fires were rampant all over the country.The government has done a lot to stregthen the laws that favour the girl more than the boy. The incidence of such happening have greatly diminished.On the contrary thr girls have started misusing this law .We have festivals that fortify the relationship  between the brother and the sister. Unfortunately these too have been tagged with material consideration and the affection on the decline.Recently the parliament passed a Bill pertaining to domestic violence. A husband now cannot even call names to his wife and on a single complaint by the wife he is put in jail. But a lot more needs to be done ameliorate the sufferings of a woman. In fact the women of the world will have to unite in a crusade against this injustice in this damn male dominated society.

    Regards

    pd.

  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    Okay, I had nothing better to do today, so I looked up Stockholm Syndrome.  Generally speaking, its a syndrome whereby a captive or a victim of abuse becomes sympathetic to his or her captor or abuser, and sometimes, even having the opportunity to escape, refuse to do so.  Well, I know I used some examples like that earlier when I started talking about domestic violence and child abuse, but I don't think that's exactly where I was going with this either.  What I was talking about was not so much women turning to the very same person who abused them or whom they felt threatened by, but to other members of the same group... in this case, just the same gender.  So that some members of this group are seen as threats or villains, and other members are seen as protectors.  Sometimes, they are one and the same, but not always.

    peedee:  I'm glad to hear that those kitchen fires are becoming a thing of the past.  It seems that women in India have made some huge strides in a short time.  Are you serious about the husband being thrown in jail for calling his wife a name?  Does the same apply to a woman who calls her husband a name?  Do you think this might be going a bit too far?

  • gingersoul said on Feb 02, 2007....

    Kruu...Stockholm Syndrome (which Moon refers to ) is a pyscological mechanism is adopted as a mind set by some victims of violence inducing a behavior that seems going to teh extreme opposite of what you might expect from a victim: the victim starts pleasing the oppressor, the victim "volontarily" accepts and put in action the rules dictated by the oppressor.

    Its an interesting coping mecahinism that have been studied in relation, for example, with the concentration camp during the Nazi. Some victims exposed to extreme psycologcal and physical violence might develop a coping strategy that brings them to not even run away if given the chance to be set free. They prefer to remain with the oppressor (in their mind or with their body) or in their future relationishps perpetuate the same relation imposed by the oppressor to them. 

    Krruu..is not like patriarchy has been decided at some table by a group of belly bearing men.....its  a structure given to the first societies (we are talking about thousands of years ago) because of  the obvious evident physical supremacy of the men toward the women. With the time and the evolving of such ancestral structures, men have developed rules and tabu and prohibitions in order to contain the power of their counterpart. Tribes were strong when numeorus, having lots of babies was crucial to their empowering force, women were the most precious possession of a society. Therefore the need to protect them BUT also to control them. Its not a mistery that contraception has been in the hands of the man for thousand of years....the men created the rules and the taboo,..the women (as always happened) worked on the side, in the secrecy, to find their own way to help themselves. The witches of Salem were not possessed by the Evil but by the knowledge.

    They were powerful (and dangerous to the established society) because they had knowledge ..they were helping women aborting babies imposed to them after other 8-10 pregnancies when their bodies were sick and destroyed and their mind oppressed....these healers knew the right herbs, the right natural way to help and therefore they had to be wiped off. 

    What angered we women has been the discovery that myhs, rules, prejudices and stygmates were still perpetuated even when the first brave women started to raise their head and say no ...this is not the society in which i want to live, this is not what i want become ....still now in 2007....

    Its interesting to see that in the still too many areas and societies in the world (right now today) where there are wars and poverty  the women rights are no existent. ..in extreme critical situations the mechanism is still the same. It takes a lot of effort and education work to teach some of these women to protect themselves and educate themselves...

    Women pay double. And children with them. And agai, little girls are more in danger than little boys. In China there is law, for example, that prohibites families to have more than one child. It applied by the governmen to control teh sovrapopulation.

    Guess which one is the gender more wished? Not a girl.

    Peedee...your example is one i was going to bring up.....pyres of wives that voluntarily throw themselves on top of the burning bodies of their husbands and die with him....how much value these women were putting in their lives?  They considered themselves a speck of nothing when no man was protecting them...they were considered by the society a speck of nothing....

    how horrible...its good that the new generations are fighting to overcome these shameful past.....

  • beyondtheveil said on Feb 02, 2007....

    moonriver- It looks as though you and I think similarly.

    kruu- Off the subject, but are the ends of sentences cut off on your screen, or is it just mine?

  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    ginger: yes, I think that syndrome is probably the closest thing we have to explaining why there are so many women in the US for example, who feel threatened by the idea of an equal rights amendment, and women anywhere who defend the status quo even more vigorously sometimes than the men who benefit by it.  Especially in the last couple of decades, (in the US) I've noticed that there is a growing number of women who seem to feel threatened by or nervous about any talk of furthering the rights of women or any criticism of what might be referred to as the "male establishment."  Notice how many women have stayed away from this post?

    I'm aware of the situation in China, and many baby girls are killed or abandoned.  (A lot of them are adopted by westerners).  They say that, in another generation in China, it will be nearly impossible for a man to find a wife.  I wonder how women will fare in China then.

    I think the funeral pyre issue you were talking about with peedee is a separate issue from the one that peedee and I were discussing (although certainly as important).  There is a tradition of dowries in India (where the bride's family pays a dowry to the groom).  There was an epidemic of immense proportions in India whereby the men, I guess having grown tired of their wife and wanting to collect another dowry, would arrange for the (propane? kerosene?) stove in the kitchen to explode, and the wife would be killed, freeing the man to marry again and collect another dowry.  It had reached such proportions that it was a regular occurrence, and some men would marry many times, all of their wives having died in "kitchen accidents."

    beyond: 

  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....
    beyond:  everything is showing up alright on my computer (except for my last attempt at answering your comment).  Maybe you need a bigger screen.  lol
  • purrrkitten said on Feb 02, 2007....

    I just saw on a news story the other day the shortage of women in China. They were showing college campuses and it's ALL MEN! There are hardly any young women walking the streets.

    The pyres in India you are talking about... sometimes, if the woman had more self esteem and didn't want to throw herself on the fire, her family WOULD DO IT FOR HER! That's how much she was worth. Nothing. There are still classes of people that are worse than worms that only dare come out at night. If they are seen by anyone, they are automatically killed. And the women are the lowest there too.

    The female circumsion done wherever (Africa?) is done BY the women of the tribe. They hold the young girl down while they mutilate her body!! Because they have had it done to themselves. Because it is law to them. They feel they must defend it even if it is wrong. It's tradition.

    We teach our girls in magazines like Cosmo how to "please" their man. To lie and manipulate to "keep" him. How to dress to attract him. What to say to make him want to hang out with you. How to manipulate him into doing something for you by saying the right things. What things to put in your house so you don't "scare him away". Then they turn and tell us how to be strong proud women - but for some reason, somehow, we still need that man to be at our strongest! We abuse our bodies dieting to be the "perfect woman". If not eating (or only eating certain things or amounts) doesn't work, we go buy pills to do it for us. If the pills don't work, we go to the doctor and he cuts off the parts we don't like for us. If we don't have a "perfect" nose, he sculpts it for us like clay. If our boobs aren't perky like they were at 16, we get him to enhance them with plastic that could eventually KILL us! And why? So we can get a man to look after us!!

    Sorry. I started ranting there. But it just enfuriates me to no end how we are constantly manipulated to be passive, helpless, self worthless, plastic, man-wannabees!

    Whew!! *takes a deep breath - in thru the nose, out thru the mouth...*  

  • silverwhisper said on Feb 02, 2007....
    purr: IMX, the people who are the most vicious critics of women are other women. and in that respect, i would put the editorial staff of magazines like cosmo right w/ 'em.

    ed
  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....
    purr:  thank you!  and {{hug}}.  You raised a lot of valid issues that I would like to address, but I'm on my way out the door now, so I will come back to it later tonight.  Hang in there, girl... you'll be alright.  :)
  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    purr:  re: the surplus of men in China... damn!  I was born 30 years too early.  Chinese men are my favorite.  Especially Chinese men with a university education and a flair for cooking.  :)

    Does it seem odd to anyone but me that India has all these horrifically oppressive institutions against women, and at the same time, they turn out some very highly educated professional women... doctors, scientists, etc.  and they've had at least one female prime minister (I think that was her title)?  Maybe peedee can give us some more insights.

    Regarding genital mutilation, or as it is often called, female circumcision, I had to do some research about this issue about 15 years ago, and it was a horrifying eye opener.  The women who perform the "operation" are called "midwives" and they usually do it with a rusty lid from a tin can.  They are the ones who are most invested in perpetuating the "tradition" because their position earns them a lot of prestige and wealth. 

    The most severe version of mutilation is called the pharaonic (after the pharahos), and all the meat between the legs is scraped out, and a single straw is inserted before sewing her back up, so that she will have a hole to pee out of.  Then, her feet are tied with cloth to a wooden board, and she has to lie down the whole time while she is healing.  After the operation, she will always walk with a peculiar shuffle, because the top of her legs have been partially bound together by the scar tissue.  The hole that is left for her to pee out of is so small, that it takes most women at least half an hour to empty their bladder. 

    On the wedding night, the husband has a lot of pressure to prove his manhood by breaking through all the scar tissue with his bare penis.  But the scar tissue is usually so thick and hardened that this is either impossible or results in injury to the man's penis.  When it is impossible for the man to penetrate naturally, he must cut his wife open with a knife.  That is why honeymoon hotels in those parts of the world are filled with terrifying screams... it is the sound of a circumcised woman  losing her virginity.  As you can imagine, childbirth is excruciating.  And after the woman gives birth, she is sewn right back up again, and the little straw is inserted again until she heals.

    There is a lot of concern about this practice even among the communities that practice it, but it is carried on, because a girl who is not "circumcised" is considered unmarriageable.  Only the prostitutes are uncircumcised (here is a real life situation where I think I would prefer to be a prostitute, mobil).  Ironically, the men are said to prefer sex with prostitutes because of the pain and discomfort involved in having sex with a circumcised woman, but the custom lives on, because it is believed to be part of the muslim religion.  In fact, the koran speaks of circumcision but doesn't go into specifics.  In many parts of the muslim world, the circumcision only consists of a nick on the clit, which in my opinion is barbaric enough, as is male circumcision, but that's another issue.  But because of high illiteracy rates, most of the people practicing this atrocity have never read the koran first hand, and are lead to believe that it is a requirement of their religion.  Wealthy parents, however, often send their daughters to Europe for their education so they can avoid the whole circumcision thing.  Unfortunately, there aren't that many wealthy parents in these areas.  There have been documented cases of western women going into these areas and trying to convince people to abolish this practice. At least one of them was chased down by "midwives" in the jungle and mutilated and left to bleed to death.

  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....

    purr:  just continuing responding to your comment.  You are so right about the body image ideals that we are sold by magazines like Cosmo as well as the manufacturers of all the health and beauty items at your local drugstore.  Another powerfully emerging group that stands to benefit substantially from our insecurity about our body image is that of plastic surgeons, male or female.  I actually read a magazine article once that had plastic surgeons referring to small breasts as deformities or birth defects!  And when laws were put into effect to stop the use of silicon implants because of the possibly fatal consequences... the biggest group of protesters was women.  Their argument was that it was unfair to women who had lost their breasts due to cancer.  So, if you're going to have a surgery to get rid of a deadly disease, why on earth would you want to put something in your body that could well kill you anyway?  I'd rather see all that energy spent on teaching women to cherish their bodies regardless of whether or not they still have boobs.  I've known women who not only had small boobs, but no boobs at all... no cancer... they were just born that way.  And guess what, they don't lack male attention at all.  Men, with some exception, obviously, are much less critical of our bodies than we are ourselves or than we are of other women's bodies, just like ed said.  It's time to start loving ourselves again.

  • gingersoul said on Feb 02, 2007....

    Purr.....i want to give you even more reasons to get angry  (just because i know you can handle it ...;-).

    In a study published last year from the Onu, based on a world wide report, has been stated that one on 3 women has suffered some kind of violences, rapes, sexual mutilations. Its a huge number.....Also, women have from 40% to 70% chances to be KILLED by their husbands or boyfriends. 

    Men kill women more than cancer or any other desease.

    In Italy we have 120 centres to fight any violence agaisnt women and they published a study this month in which has reported that the average man assaulting or raping or killing women  60% is between 35 and 40 years, 20% has a decree,  22% is white collar, 10% is self employed and les than 10% is a red collar.

    The lower percentage being unemployed men and seniors. The average male-monster doesnt' drink or take drugs. They are normal guy, our neighbor, our freinds, our husband. Its scary.

    This is the real danger for us women. He can be ANYBODY. In Italy there is national center called Pink Phone. If you are in a abusive relationship, or in immediate danger you cal this toll free number and tehy work arrnging any possible way to help you. Like the one that is working here in Usa.

    They say that the numbers of women killed is increased for a simple raeso: women are rebelling faster than before to their monster-men. And rebelling lead to their death. They say there are countless women who denounced their husband or lover and when their trial arrived they were holding hands with them asking the judge not to prosecute them. The Stockolm Syndrome. 

    Purr...you mention the media responsability in this vicious circus. I believe we have sexified too much everything. Women are denouncing by years the huge manipulation done over their bodies by the publicity and the enterntaiment media in general. In Italy we have naked women sponsorizing chewing gums (!), perky semi naked models sponsorizing everything from oven stoves to waxs for the car. Its a constant stream of images that affects the brains if you are not educated to recognize the danger. The male brain is the target. Its a poisonous constant immersion in sex, in exposing mercilessly the woman body.

    And the women unfortunately play along. The more and more revealing fashion of the last years declared by the industry is IN, the woman who wants to be admired by the men (and the other women) follow the trend, the trend need to be subverted with somethign more radical...and on and on. What we have is  10 yrs old girls dressed like whores. There is some items for teen now that looks like Victoria's secret catalogs.. ...We have early teens dancing with the video of some rap (male) obsessing over female body parts like they were cars accessories.... .

    Men are confused by these mixed signals. They see all these exposing bodies and they think, what the heck, i want them, i take them. They know thay CAN do it. They feel entitled to do so.

    I dont say the women are parading around asking to be raped. NO, I say that in the men these messages got mixed up. They misunderstand. The rape action is the absence of any psycological elaboration. There is a total impossibility for the man to relate with the woman as a human being. She is only a object. The tool for his pleasure. They see only bodies.

    This freedom in exhibiting our bodies would require a maturity that simply is not here. In women as well, mind you....We live sex in an unhealthy way. 

     

    SW...i agree with you..the media are apparently a woman glorifying territory..but is not a woman's friend.....Cosmo is the worst.....

  • kruuyai said on Feb 02, 2007....
    ginger: "This is the real danger for us women. He can be ANYBODY"  A good friend of mine survived a horrible attack and sexual assault when she was getting out of her car to go visit her friend.  This guy was in a jogging suit and jogged past her.  As she was locking her car, he came back and assaulted her.  I won't go into the details.  It was pretty bad.  She said that the one thing that really stuck with her about this incident, after all these years, was that he just looked like anybody.  Just a regular guy out for his evening jog. 
  • gingersoul said on Feb 02, 2007....

    There is only to hope that his song will be listened and payed a lot on the radios.......  

     

    "Runaway"  - Ludacris (and Mary J. Blige)

    Now little Lisa is only 9 years old
    Shes tryin to figure out why the world is so cold
    Why shes all all alone and they never met her family
    Mamas always gone and she never met her daddy
    Part of her is missin and nobody will listenin
    Mama is on drugs gettin high up in the kitchen
    Bringin home men at different hours of the night
    Startin with laughs--usually endin in a fight
    Sneak into her room while her mamas knocked out
    Tryin to have his way and little Lisa says 'ouch'
    She tries to resist but then all he does is beat her
    Tries to tell her mom but her mama don't believe her
    Lisa is stuck up in the world on her own
    Forced to think that hell is a place called home
    Nothin else to do but some get some clothes and pack
    She says shes bout to run away and never come back.

    [Hook - Mary J. Blige]
    Runaway love


    [Verse 2 - Ludacris]
    Little Nicole is only 10 years old
    Shes steady tryin to figure why the world is so cold
    Why she's not pretty and nobody seems to like her
    Alcoholic step dad always wanna strike her
    Yells and abuses, leaves her with some bruises
    Teachers ask questions she makin up excuses
    Bleedin on the inside, cryin on the out
    Its only one girl really knows what she about
    Her name is Lil Stacy and they become friends
    Promise that they always be tight til the end
    Until one day Lil Stacy gets shot
    A drive by bullet went stray up on her block
    Now Nicole stuck up in the world on her own
    Forced to think that hell is a place called home
    Nothin else to do but some get some clothes and pack
    She says shes bout to run away and never come back.

    [Hook - Mary J. Blige]
    Runaway love [x8]

    [Verse 3 - Ludacris]
    Little Erica is eleven years old
    Shes steady tryin to figure why the world is so cold
    So she pops x to get rid of all the pain
    Cause shes havin sex with a boy whos sixteen
    Emotions run deep and she thinks shes in love
    So theres no protection hes usin no glove
    Never thinkin bout the consequences of her actions
    Livin for today and not tomorrows satisfaction
    The days go by and her belly gets big
    The father bails out he aint ready for a kid
    Knowin her mama will blow it all outta proportion
    Plus she lives poor so no money for abortion
    Erica is stuck up in the world on her own
    Forced to think that hell is a place called home
    Nothin else to do but get her clothes and pack
    She say shes about to run away and never come back.

    Now, ladies, i can only imagine

     what you get through

    close your eyes and when you open them

    the world wil be better...   

    Runaway (Ludacris)

  • peedee said on Feb 02, 2007....

    Hi !kruu,The worst part of yhe story is that ' A WOMAN HAS BEEN TRANSFORMED INTO A COMMODITY' in modern times. The so called custodians of the society who are are acting as a  moral police , the religous heads, the wealthy feudals, in collusion with the rulers have been perpetrating numerous atrocities on a woman. If I am not mistaken,  Hitler once remarkded that woman is only meant for the enjoyment of a man and has no  role other than that. Widow remarriage was not allowed in India and the woman whose husband died was forcibly thrown on the burning pyre. Social reformers took up the cudgels against this practice of "SATI"  and achieved success in stopping it. Their name go down in the History of India in Golden letters. Now look at the Muslim world, the man is permitted to have four wives. Just by uttering 'Talaq, Talaq, Talaq  (Divorce, Divorce,Divorce) just once and the wife is out.on the road.There arte very few women who dare to abuse their husband, exceptions are always there but then a time will come when the husbands will have to fight the misuse of the Domestic violence Bill. Woman is the most wonderful creation of God, symbol of purity and patience, a symbol of love and sacrifice but has been termed in English literatre as a 'FRAILITY'. Look at the advertising world, women  scantily dressed are displayed along side the products offered for sale and look at the vast number of pornographic sites which disply women in an utterly bad shape.When will this end only God knows. ( a deep sigh)

    pd. 

  • purrrkitten said on Feb 03, 2007....

    Kruu, that made me what to throw up. I can't possibly understand how we can HATE so much. Cuz that's what it is. Hate and greed - the two motivating factors to mutilate a woman/child so much. We do so much the same just in less obvious ways. Looking at how we advertise to get our little girls dressing, it's no wonder pedos find it so easy to make a target. Our body esteem is so low in this country, we are willing to DIE for the ideal. We hate ourselves!!! We treat our bodies with distain cuz our arms 'jiggle' or our nose is crooked or one boob is bigger than the other or our tummy has a 'pooch' (it's called having a uterus people!!!). Even a superthin model or actress will tell you how she hates her thighs or stomach cuz they so fat. It's a mind sickness. And we're spreading it in every ad we see, every tv show we watch, every weight loss/ diet pill / new diet we try, magazine/ book(!) we read. Even cartoon women are stereotypical. Barbie is considered an outdated image but at least she had HIPS! She doesn't have the body of a 12 yr old!

    ginger, that brought tears to my eyes. So many horrible horrible things go on in this world. How can one person stop it? How can even many stop it?

    peedee, our world can be an awful place to be. No matter where we are.  :-(

  • kruuyai said on Feb 03, 2007....
    ginger:  Thank you so much for sharing that song with us.  It's a hard thing to read... or listen to, I imagine, but having the world be aware of what's happening to our young girls is a very necessary first step... although it will take so much more than just awareness, because I think we've been aware for a while, and it's still happening.  It seems like there's an epidemic sweeping the world, but I don't think that's the case.  I think there's probably about the same amount of abuse that has always happened, but now we are starting to hear about it more.  Women are having a voice.  More laws are being enacted in many countries around the world.  Things are changing.  Not fast enough, but they are changing.  One of my concerns is the backlash that has already started to happen.  People are starting to rebel against laws that are meant to protect children, because of some (i hope) isolated cases in which some children have used the protective laws to manipulate their parents or guardians.  This is surely a problem in itself, but what has happened is that some people have hardened their hearts against those children (and there are so very many of them) who are truly being victimized.  And even in the face of so many protective laws, the abuse goes on and on. 
  • kruuyai said on Feb 03, 2007....

    peedee: I'm glad to hear that SATI has been stopped.  What a horrifying world for a woman to live in, especially considering that women generally have a longer life expectancy than men, and I imagine most of the wives are younger than the husbands anyway.  So that means that virtually every woman was destined to burn to death on a funeral pyre.  I can't imagine going through my entire life expecting, almost knowing that it would end that way.  I wonder how many of those women committed suicide on or just before their husband's death in order to avoid being burned alive?  If it were me, that's what I would do.

     

  • kruuyai said on Feb 03, 2007....
    peedee:  Do you know if there's any movement within the Muslim community to improve the condition of women?   It seems like it would be very difficult for women to gather in any sort of solidarity meetings, with all the controls on their lives.  Are the divorced laws you mentioned only in the Indian Muslim community, or are they more widespread?  I wonder if women have it easier in less secular countries like Turkey or Morocco.
  • kruuyai said on Feb 03, 2007....

    purr:  I find your anger refreshing.  It seems there are so many people in the world today who can hear all of this stuff and not feel anything.  If outrage is a motivating force for us to start taking action and speaking out against these atrocities that are all too common, I say, bring it on.  Friends, let's not let this discussion remain on this page.  We need to keep the word moving.  Make people aware and keep them aware of what's happening in our world.  Purr, I know it was hard to read about the female circumcision.  It was hard for me to write about it.  But one of the things that gives strength to this horrifying practice is that it's not widely known in the rest of the world.  I imagine a lot of people would simply refuse to believe that such a thing could be happening on such a regular basis in this day and age.  There are those who would say, "Stay out of it.  Don't interfere with another culture.  You have no right."  I wonder what our sisters in Africa would say to that. 

    So right again about the body image stuff.  I once had a make-over photo session, and the makeup artist pinned all my hair toward the front of my head, so it would look full.  It looked great, but I could never walk around the street like that.  She also told me some of the tricks that photographers use for nude photos.  For example, they tape something similar to a Band-Aid under the breasts to make them stand up more, and they tape the waist toward the back to make it look smaller.  So these images that are being presented as the ideal, couldn't even occur in nature!  And women are killing themselves trying to live up to this ideal!

     

  • kruuyai said on Feb 03, 2007....
    The way this discussion is going reminds me of another very important issue that I think I want to do a separate post about, but I have to do some research first.  In short, in the northernmost state of Mexico, where most of the post-NAFTA factories are located, over the last several years, the mutilated bodies of hundreds of women have been found buried in shallow graves.  They are usually young women who moved to the north for jobs in the "maquiladoras" (factories) and had no families or friends in their new place of residence.  It is suspected (maybe known) that these women were abducted and used in snuff films which are marketed primarily in Asian countries.  It is suspected that there is complicity on the part of the owners of the maquiladoras who schedule young, single women on night shifts where they will have to walk home alone late at night or in the early morning hours, and that is when they are abducted.  The Mexican government has given lip service to investigating these crimes, but has, in fact, done nothing.
  • purrrkitten said on Feb 03, 2007....

    The anger is there but what do we do with it? How do we use it to motivate change? What can we do to help other women? I feel like I'm at such a loss. I read this and I feel guilty about feeling so horrible sometimes about what happened to me and to you and many others. Yet our life-altering rapes and traumas as so small compared to the millions of women who suffer every day. And with something like female "circumsion" - sick mutilation - that goes on and on to those women and girls every day for their whole lives.

    It breaks my heart, kruu. Tears it to shreds. And I feel helpless; powerless to do a damn thing about it.

  • kruuyai said on Feb 04, 2007....

    purr: I think there are a lot of things we can do... starting in our own homes, we can educate our daughters... teach them to cherish and respect themselves and to know that nobody has a right to touch them without their permission, and that we are there for them if they ever have any problems and that we will believe them and keep them safe.  And then, we have to do that.  We have to be more vigilant and involved in our children's lives, and we have to be aware of potential dangers. 

    If we have time, we can do volunteer work.  We can man (woman) the phones at a crisis center or a safehouse for battered women.  We can help to organize and/or participate in demonstrations like Take Back the Night.  We can talk to people about what is happening to women around the world so that consciousness is raised.  We can boycott products that are promoted in ways that we find offensive.  And we can stop being ashamed to call ourselves feminists as if that were a dirty word.  We are women, hear us roar!  (okay... a little hokey at the end there, but you see where I'm driving?  The backlash against feminism has, in many respects, caused us to lose a lot of the forward momentum that we gained in the sixties and seventies.  Many women may be further ahead in their careers, but look at the sacrifices that they've had to make to get there.  In many cases, they are still carrying all the load in the home and with the children as well as helping to or completely supporting their families.  And what backslides are the career advances masking?  We don't have to take it lying down, but ... united we stand, divided we fall... so step one is for women to start getting along better, have more esteem for not only themselves, but other women as well, and to stop thinking of the male of the species as if he were some sort of prize that we have to compete for.  We need to work together.  If you know other women with similar concerns in your area, you could organize a weekly or monthly meeting to talk and share information and possibly come up with a plan of action, even if its only a plan for the women who are in the group, it's a start, and you never know where it could lead to.

  • purrrkitten said on Feb 04, 2007....
    Thanks for the ideas. I don't exactly know where I could go with them right now - other than teaching my daughter to respect herself and my sons to treat women with respect. But thanks for sharing! ~^^