In this time of war, or any other time in public, should women be allowed to wear a burka in the United States? I think not. As in days past, I went to the grocery store this morning only to see the woman in front of me wearing a black burka. The slits of her eyes were all that showed. If this is part of religious freedom, then perhaps all of us should be able to run around hiding our identity. When I came home, I listened to President Bush's speech where he stated he would consider sending more troops to Iraq. One of his comments was that parents wanted to know that their children who fought in Iraq didn't die in vain. My feeling is, let the Iraqii people first fight for their own country, as I would fight for mine before sending in more Americans.
Ariene posted on Dec 20, 2006
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Comments
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anonymous said on Dec 20, 2006....
No they shouldn't be allowed to wear them anywhere except their own country where it is acceptable behavior, period. -
Ariene said on Dec 20, 2006....
anonymous - Well Said! -
SeanRenaud said on Dec 21, 2006....
Wow, its amazing that it is so difficult to separate the hate mongers fromt he freedom seekers. Of course they should be allowed to worship in this country in whatever way makes them happy. If that means a burka so be it, it violates no law of decencey that I've heard of. (Personally I'm all about ladies in bikinis at the Super Market) its funny that the same prudes who are anti porn are also anti-burka.It is a personal freedom to take that way is just plain wrong no matter how you slice it. They aren't doing anything wrong other than making you feel un comfy. -
Ariene said on Dec 21, 2006....
SeanRenaud - Sorry, but actually you're wrong. I've been a freedom fighter for many years...standing up for rights of people, even those I disagree with. By the way, I used to know a Pulitzer Prize Winner who wrote at times adult material which I legally sold. My point is this...there was an attempt to have driver's license photos taken in full burka with only the slits of these women's eyes showing. What kind of identification is that, especially when it comes to identifying a criminal. Imagine if we were all allowed to cover our faces and bodies and became one of the masses. This is not the middle east. This is America and have you forgotten 9/11 or the previous attack on the World Trade Center years before? My nephew was part of the rescue effort on 9/11 and for days after. So, No, I don't put any rights of those who choose to hide who they are above the safety of Americans. -
SeanRenaud said on Dec 21, 2006....
That's not what you asked. That is a different situation all together. If you asked should a woman be allowed to wear a burka (or a man shades) during his ID photography the answer is a blatant no. Just like if asked if a Catholic could give his name in God to a police office when being arrested rather than his legal name the answer is again no.If that was your point then you should have said it. Saying that women shouldn't be allowed to wear Burkas in Vons however is simply just hate mongering and it serves no inteligent purpose and you have to understand that.Without being too cold about it I don't care who you know who was in 9/11, Nam, Iraq, WW2, the Trail of Tears or the MTv Music awards. Adding emotion to an argument almost by neccesity makes it null and void. -
missb said on Dec 21, 2006....
Hey Ariene,
I can't say whether you should allow women wearing burqa in the U.S or not cause i'm not american but i get your point. It is a bit tricky if the thing gets too rampant. People can misuse it.
I've blogged about this as well. It's about Jack Straw's comment regarding the wearing of burqa in the UK. Check it out if you're interested.
Cheers :)
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Ariene said on Dec 21, 2006....
missb - Thanks for your comment. I will check it out. -
Ariene said on Dec 21, 2006....
SeanRenauld - Without emotion, what would life be? Perhaps you don't care who I know, but I do. I've watched 18 year olds go to war and never return, leaving behind grieving families. Life is not black and white. No, I didn't mean just for photo identification. I happen to live in the northeast and have seen many women wearing burkas. Some of the 9/11 terrorists were near this area just before the attacks and I'm not sympathetic. Do I hate Muslims....No, nor do I hate anyone at all. You have the right to your opinion, as do I. -
SeanRenaud said on Dec 21, 2006....
Yeah you have a right to your opinion but it is wrong. When trying to set laws we need to think logically not emotionally. I'm a Marine I know some of the 18 year olds who didn't come back, they served with me. That's not a reason to say that women shouldn't be able to wear burkas or worship Allah.They shouldn't be able to wear in anything used for identification, that's rather obvious. Life usually is black and white if you stop the bullshit. What does it matter if they are wearing burkas in your area (they do that here too I might add) hell it makes the ones we need to profile against easier to find. -
Ariene said on Dec 21, 2006....
OK, SeanRenaud - Hope it doesn't offend you if I wish you a Happy New Year! -
SeanRenaud said on Dec 21, 2006....
LoL. Not the least. :-)I hope it won't end the world if I wish you a Merry Christmas. -
rfdraper3 said on Jan 04, 2007....
You come from a negative point of view. It is a religous matter for the women to cover their faces. It is a matter of modesty. A woman's body is private to her, and her family. We as Muslims don 't want people to view our women as sex toys as the people in America do their women. Modesty is a big part of our religion.
About the Iraqi people. They should be more involved in defen ding their own country. We have lost countless American lives.
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bloc said on Jan 04, 2007....
why would you possibly won't to ban wearing of a burka in america? Isn't this the land of the free? Don't we believe in freedom including religious freedom? -
SeanRenaud said on Jan 04, 2007....
As long as it is removed for ID purposes. We are agreed on that right? No veil on your Driver's Liscence or Indian War paint for that matter? I know we are Bloc (I think) I just want to be clear since that is where the argument is supposed to be at this point. -
bloc said on Jan 04, 2007....
yes, I agree with everything you've said -
anonymous said on Jul 05, 2007....
I'm offended by the disrespect shown me by a woman in a burka. It's the same sense of offense that is felt in shari'a-law countries when women aren't "properly" and modestly clad there. Out of simple respect for the sensibilities of an area's people, a burka shouldn't be worn because it is out of place and causes discomfort to others. A secondary reason is this: in America, a hidden face in a public setting portends malicious intent and stikes fear in others. Our society interprets such attire as a disguise. If patrons in a bank, for example, were confronted by a "masked" individual, their understandable reaction would be "fight or flight." We cannot condone the potential for exposure to this sort of provocation and the havoc which could reasonably ensue. -
dudette101 said on Oct 29, 2007....
to anonymous i think what you said is wrong, why is it so wrong for a woman to cover up and you feel 'uncomfortable' wouldn't that be the case if there were naked women walking everywhere? -
anonymous said on Oct 30, 2007....
Hello, dudette101 I shall be quite clear in expressing myself on this issue. As long as there are places of shari'a law which, for whatever deeply-held reasons, regard as taboo the appearance of women without the burka--to the point that women are not permitted to be clad otherwise, I feel it is my right, also because of deeply-held reasons, to regrd as taboo the appearance of women with the burka. -
SeanRenaud said on Oct 30, 2007....
Dudette, don't respond to anon, he's obviously stupid that's why he's hiding as an anon. He's stupid and his opinion doesn't matter. -
mrgshelton said on Oct 30, 2007....
It seems Anonymous has struck a chord here. Rather than shrinking from SeanRenaud's ad hominem attack, let’s examine Anonymous’ premise: There are places in the world which have laws to enforce the wearing of the burka or other such garment. Let’s first settle the question of whether this is factual or not. Are there places in the world where it is illegal for women to appear in public when not dressed in such a manner? (And, please, let’s omit the non sequitur “nudity” argument, for argument’s sake.) Once that question is settled, we can consider whether the balance of Anonymous’ comments have any merit. -
SeanRenaud said on Oct 30, 2007....
No they have no merit period.Yes there are places where Sharia Law is law, there are many fundamentalist muslim countries in the middle east.What does that have to do on wether a person should be able to wear a burka here? You might as well tell me that Crosses should be outlawed (we are talking religion here so I'm not mixing apples and oranges) because there are people who have burned them on people's lawns. -
mrgshelton said on Oct 30, 2007....
It seems a bit harsh to unceremoniously strike down the balance of Anonymous' arguments with no further consideration. But the first step of our analysis has been accomplished: the question of, shall we say, enforced use of burkas, has now been settled. The next thing it seems Anonymous tries to do is determine whether the clothing restrictions found in Sharia Law have any basis in local social taboos. What is it about not concealing the entire body which has led to laws demanding it? Anonymous hints that the laws stem from social taboos which, in turn, stem from deep-rooted anxieties, shame or fear. Is that, in fact, the case?Once that question is settled, we can consider whether it is possible to draw a corollary between the reasons for Muslim society's holding of any such taboos and the notion that similar reasons exist for a set of equal-and-opposite taboos that might have reasonably found a place in non-Muslim society. -
SeanRenaud said on Oct 31, 2007....
Sharia Law is interpreted from the Koran. Like the Bible it tends to open to interpretation and even on occasion seems to contradict itself. It is a social taboo based in their religion. Anon's reasoning isn't entirely flawed on that.There is no reason for equal and opposite taboos. We are nation founded on the idea of RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. To restrict that freedom makes us no better than them. Not to mention WHO CARES what goes on in Syria, Iran, Iraq or even England or Canada? They can only be used as examples of what does or doesn't work, not as a justification for our own actions.I don't see where you are going with this, just by conversing on this subject as if there was something to debate has elevated a fools opinion from the muck that it belongs in. -
virlomi said on Oct 31, 2007....
I've really enjoyed reading all of your posts, and have found the dialogue very engaging. With my limited knowledge of Islam, this is what I can share. On the one hand, it is not specifically stated in the Qaran that women must wear a burqa (they are instructed to, like men, dress conservatively in loose fitting clothing, and part of their apparel includes a head covering or, 'hijab'). Yet on the other hand throughout history the meaning and form of the hijab has been interpreted and reinterpreted-- and the burqa is just one manifestation of these many interpretations. Throughout its implementation in Islamic societies, the burqa has naturally generated a new meaning for muslim women (muslimah) and has influenced the way they feel they should observe and represent their personal religiousness. This is something that I think is missing in this specific conversation-- the personal meaning and significance of the burqa to muslimah. While it can be argued that the burqa is a form of submission of women to men (and it has), I think that that is ignoring the fact that for the muslimah it is a form of submission to Allah, which is the goal of Islam. To tell a muslimah that she can not wear a burqa is equivalent to taking away an integral part of her identity. If she chooses after coming here to America to forgo the burqa, that is her own personal journey. However, ultimately I feel to impose any sort of legislation making the burqa illegal is in itself illegal for it violates a basic human right-- that everyone has a right to freedom of religion. Whether or not we are in a muslim nation or America is irrelevant; it is our obligation to respect all forms and expressions of religiousness. -
mrgshelton said on Oct 31, 2007....
I am pursuaded both by SeanRenaud's reminder of the strength of America's religious freedoms with its concommittant responsibility to hold those freedoms available to all, and by virlomi's placing of this issue squarely against the backdrop of one's personal journey in faith. I truly respect such a twin reality of how it must be to face a struggle for religious freedom in a supposedly modern and all-embracing society. There is a duty in the United States, then, to (at the very least) be tolerant of those whose outward appearance reflects an inner expression of faith, and it would seem appropriate if Anonymous were to cede that portion of his argument. This leaves us, however, with the question of how to deal with the pretext for Anonymous' core dilemma: What can be done to square American thinking with being confronted, in Muslim countries governed by Sharia Law, with pressures (societal and/or legal) on women to adopt the wearing of the burqa/hijab. If it is done so as not to offend fragile local sensibilities, well, that is one thing--and a practical set of rules for a traveller to observe. But if "improper" attire is sufficient cause for arrest or detainment, well, that is quite another. The question then becomes, where does the non-Muslim individual's "journey of faith" enter into such a scenario? Or we must consider: under Sharia Law, is a personal relationship with one's God understood within a different framework of values, perhaps coupled with an unavoidable loss of personal freedoms? Can we explore this for a bit? -
SeanRenaud said on Oct 31, 2007....
What does how things are done in a Muslim nation (or any non American nation) have to do with wether a woman should be allowed to wear a burka in the US, or anything else for that matter. -
virlomi said on Oct 31, 2007....
When an immigrant comes to the US, they bring not only themselves but their heritage and lived experiences in their respective heritages as well. For them, the muslim peoples, the burqa carries a specific significance and weight that we here naturally don't yet understand. It's important to understand the reason why women wear burqas in their native countries so that we don't automatically pass judgments on this custom through the lens of American culture and norms and potentially enforce, as it seems the originator of this thread is suggesting, a law making the wearing of burqas illegal. When you accept foreigners into your country, you can't ignore their cultural histories b/c this can lead to misunderstandings, hate speech, and worst of all, hate crimes.
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anonymous said on Nov 01, 2007....
I don't know where any of you guys are going with this. I sit here and think of the big stink they had over in France about if they were going to outlaw girls wearing their hijab's in school. Everybody there was all nervous that there was going to be some kind of takeover or something and that the kids wouldn't be able to pay attention so they could learn something. Well, when that was all going on I thought to myself, 'ísn't NOT wearing for the Christian kids some kind of head covering just as powerful a statement of who you are as the Muslims actually going to school wearing them?' I mean, the Christian kids, by going to classes bare-headed were, in some way, expressing their non-Muslim identity. So what was the difference? And here alls I'm saying is, what with all those old Abbot & Costello and Road to Morocco movies where the thieving bad guys all run around dressed up in burkas so they can hide in full view and do their dastardly stuff...Well, what's to stop the same thing from happening here? I should say that being around masked anarchists dressed all in black or mara salvatrucha guys or who ever they are in Central America with their Uzis and bandanas or even being around masked FBI agents doing a perp walk or disguised Iraqi insurrectionists--they all give me the creeps! And I think a reasonable person has something to fear when in the presence of people who, for WHATEVER REASON wish to not be identifiable. And that's what I have to say on this. You don't have to like it. I don't think it's an Un-American way to think. And...because I have these (irrational?) fears, I'm staying "anonymous"! -
virlomi said on Nov 03, 2007....
Your fears are your fears, and I don't think there's anything anyone can say to make you examine them. Maybe someone else will try, but I just wanted to address a few points in your post:
"Well, when that was all going on I thought to myself, 'ísn't NOT wearing for the Christian kids some kind of head covering just as powerful a statement of who you are as the Muslims actually going to school wearing them?' "
No, I don't think it's quite the same at all. Perhaps if in the Bible God stated not to cover the head it would carry the same weight. It's commanded in the Quran by God to wear a covering, and that's why this whole thing is an issue.
"And I think a reasonable person has something to fear when in the presence of people who, for WHATEVER REASON wish to not be identifiable."
You're going to fear normal women, grandmothers and mothers, who are just observing faith to their god? Really? Maybe you should reconsider projecting your fear of terrorists and the like on them before using that fear to ostracize them. They themselves are probably just as afraid of terrorists as we are, if not more so. -
SeanRenaud said on Nov 03, 2007....
In all fairness virloma bank robbers wear masks. Kidnappers wear masks. Hiding your identity in Western culture is pretty much reserved for criminals, not terrorists per'se.The fact of the matter though is that we are a free nation and as long as certain rules are observed these people should be allowed to worship as they will. -
virlomi said on Nov 04, 2007....
Nicely said, SeanRenaud.
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