• silverwhisper said on Nov 19, 2006....

  look at some of the intolerance going on in china or indonesia re: christian missionaries.  it's scary.
  
  ed
  

• ALIENated said on Nov 19, 2006....

  As I understand it, Islamic nations rarely tolerate any other religion. That is my fear in this country. No matter what we think or say, most any group that remotely resembles a religious group is free to set up shop on any lot in town. I see Mosks popping up all over the place. At what point will these groups start trying to squelch other religious groups here in America? All too soon, I fear.
  
  ... spirituality is basically good, religion is more or less evil.... I hope you do not really believe that. Is a hammer bad? When you are pounding a nail, no. When you hit your neighbor in the head with it, yes. Religion is a tool we use for communing with God. Some use it to pound people over the head. In that case, yes, it is bad.

• missb said on Nov 19, 2006....

  I understand that you were referring to the early christianity. I'd say yes those were bad. But in my opinion, christianity has grown and matured and what happened in the past hasn't happened again in the modern day christianity.
   
  Some religions still haven't matured at all, like islam. The way i see it, if there's ever a final religious war, it'll be between islam and the people who refuse to submit to it.
   
  Indonesia is actually considered a moderate islamic country, but lately the radical islam has taken more grounds than it has in the past. It's getting worrying.
   
  In places like Aceh or Poso, the religious wars between christians and muslims are still going on. The last one was the execution of 3 catholics who were accused of being responsible in killing muslims in poso. Despite the disapproval of christians around the world and the pope, they were still executed.
   
  The government is under pressure against the hard-line muslims if they didn't execute those catholics. Now, we, christians and catholics are waiting to see if the government would execute the Bali bombing terrorist suspects too or not.
   
  Religious tolerance in Jakarta (the capital) is better. But still, we as christians are always a minority. Myself as a chinese catholic is really their least favourite person.
   
  I agree with Alien. Religions are essentially good. It's just a matter of how and what they use them for.
   
  Cheers :)

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 19, 2006....

  ALIENated, isn't it a person's spirituality that brings them closer to God and not there specific religion? As far as I know and have been tought that is how it goes, but that all depends on your view. 
   
  "I see Mosks popping up all over the place. At what point will these groups start trying to squelch other religious groups here in America? All too soon, I fear."
   
  To me, not allowing them to would be the bias and intolerance I was refering to. I agree with you that some more extreme forms of Islam will start showing in this country more. There actually is already a group in New York that is teaching the radical Muslim beliefs. Part of the proaganda they put out is some type of Islamic flag over the white house. We just have to hope groups pop up that show parts of Islamic belief that contradict there views. We also have to prevent our own bias's not allowing us to learn about these other religions. I guess that would be a lot easier if they began to use non-violent means of protesting and fighting. Maybe they should read some of Ghandi's and Marting Luther King Jr's approaches.
   
  MissB, do you think it is possible that the final religious war will be between secularists/christians and Muslims?

• ALIENated said on Nov 19, 2006....

  Spirituality can bring you closer to God, but Jeses said the only way to bring God closer to you was through Him, Jesus. Jesus was God on earth. If you believe in God, you therefore believe in Jesus. At least that is the way Christians see it. You do not have to agree. We all have a choice. Christians just believe that not accepting Jesus is the only thing that will truly keep you out of heaven. No one can work their way to God. We are all too imperfect. Jesus came to be a sacrafice for us. He gave us an out, if you will. Adam screwed us all and Jesus redeems us all. It is really just that simple. God love us and wants us to be with Him. Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to make that happen. Accepting it is a free choice.

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 19, 2006....

  So someone can't believe in Jesus if they don't believe in a certain religion? The early christians didn't have an organized form of religion, not even the bible of taday, so wouldn't you say that the spirituality part of believing is more important than the religion part?

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 19, 2006....

  It does depend on the meaning you put to the words though.

• curmudgeon said on Nov 19, 2006....

  Completely left off the list of geonocidal atrocities above were the ones committed by wholely secular leaders Stalin, Mao and the Khmer Rouge. Together they wiped out many many millions more people than Hitler could have ever dreamed, and yet Christians and religious people in general are the ones who get flayed for their historical barbarity. The Chinese Government persecutes religious people even today.
   
  How many people have Buddhists killed, if religion, in and of itself is so dangerous?
   
  It isn't religion that kills, it's how humans identify themselves and distinguish themselves from others. Were we to take away formal religion, we'd make up other reasons to slaughter each other.
   
  We first need to accept each other as human beings who share this planet and this existence, no matter what language we speak or what relationship we have with God.
  We are not strangers. The other guy over there is a fellow human being.
   
  Perhaps we can start with that.

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 19, 2006....

  The atrocities you mentioned would be considered intolerance. I know Buddism isn't like other religions in that Buddhists generally are more about spirituality than religion in the first place. The reason I think it is religion and the intolerance caused by it is generally evil is because it is often the cause of the divisions in mankind and these divisions, unlike others, don't usually dissapate through out time. They evolve creating new divisions among people and can't be disproven to the believers on a wide scale no matter how wrong and corrupt it may be. People put their faith into these unreal things and there is no way of knowing what there religion may be interpreted as next. I'm sure even Christianity would develop radicals and extremists if a leader emerged claiming that these are the end times and it is their job to fight whatever they view as evil.
   
  I'm sure they main reason Hitler didn't kill more people than the others that you mentioned is that he was forced to stop unlike the others. They were allowed to keep going with their agenda where as Hitler died before he could complete his goal.

• ALIENated said on Nov 19, 2006....

  I hope you are not saying Hitler somehow represented Christianity. He certainly did not.

• silverwhisper said on Nov 20, 2006....

  can we all please just agree that when someone dresses up genocide in the clothes of religion, that's all that's happening?  some of the greatest horrors in history were exactly that; otheres were not.  we cannot make the mistake of thinking that religion itself is the malady throwing forth these symptoms.
  
  ed
  

• paidinblood said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Silver's right, you know.
  
  Much respect,
  paidinBlood
  

• bloc said on Nov 20, 2006....

  The problem is that religion is the veil that many fanatics use to hide their intolerance, but it's not the only one.
  

• copsunited said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Religion is NOT the problem. It is ignorance. People fear what they do not understand. Not understanding breeds intolerance. Every religion has it's own set of radicals that seek to interpret their "scriptures" the way they want. Those secular groups ( plural groups) are not condoned nor condemed by the core church/mosque etc. The Catholic church condems atrocities commited by other religions but refuses to acknowledge the harm or danger within their own religion. If you doubt that  see: Tolerance towards Child molestors by the Catholic church.
   
  Every society, for over three thousand years, has practice some sort of religion and within each religion "intolerance" has been the key to violence. Live and let live?? No way..ain't gonna happen. So..is it to be the down fall of human kind. Nope but will it bring about chaos..yup. Is it right now..ayup again.
   
  JD..aka..cops

• bloc said on Nov 20, 2006....

  why do people comment and post in all bold :/
  

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Copsunited- You said almost definitely that religion will not be the down fall of mankind when all it would take is some religious fanatics to get their hands on a good supply of some of the weapons that are around now, but weren't around the last three thousand years, and you just might have a lot more than chaos.

  Don't you all think that part of the reason religion seems to breed intolerance is because how many religions teach that their way is the only way?

• tlj2442 said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Man's sinful nature is the cause for the downfall of mankind. You can blame religion, countries, dictators, fanatics pick any of then. Greed, hatred, adultery and lust just to name a few of the driving forces of what is wrong in the world today. Most people will not take the responsibility for their own actions. The Book of Revelations spells it out for everyone. Some here do not and will not read nor will they beleive it. Look into the depths of your own heart and soul there you may find what is wrong with the world today. Sin is with everyone of us. We as Christians, believe in the grace of God and that Christ is our mediator for our sins. I am puzzled by peoples reaction to what goes on in the world today. If you read Revelations than nothing that is happening in todays world should surprise anyone. My faith leads me down a path where I do not have to worry about tommorrow or the future. It will all come to pass. I find that people who worry about all of this stuff have something lacking in their own life.

• bloc said on Nov 20, 2006....

  "Greed, hatred, adultery and lust just to name a few of the driving forces of what is wrong in the world today."
  
  Um, I think lust and adultery are not even in the same ball park as greed and hatred!
  

• silverwhisper said on Nov 20, 2006....

  c'mon bloc, you know that for social conservatives, lust is even worse than wrath!
  
  ed
  

• copsunited said on Nov 20, 2006....

  BLOC..I write and comment in bold. You have the ability to erase or ignore if you desire and since your the only one commenting..  if your don't particularly like it, delete it, don't read it, ignore it. If you cannot understand that then you are part of your own problem and certainly not OFFERING UP  the cure.
   
  COPS IN BOLD

• copsunited said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Nobodyspecial: Religion in and of istself will NOT be the down fall. Again it is the Plural groups, splinters that want to raise their own issues. Islam does not teach hatred. It is the radical groups that take it upon themselves to do the harm with their own intreprtations. Christians have done the same thing for thousands of years as well. Knights Templar used this knowlege to their advantage. Had it not been for a very insightful and spiteful French king, religion in the West would be different today.
   
  Again: Fear of what we don't understand is really what keeps this current wave on full tilt. I lived in various areas dominated by Isalam. I never felt threatened nor in fear. It is different today only in that the people there do not understand the west but only what they are told by the hate groups.
  No..Religion in and of itself will not be the downfall of humanity but fear and insanity surely will.
   
  Cops... formerly known as JD

• tlj2442 said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Sin is sin from a lie to murder in God's eye it is all the same.
  NIV study Quest Bible.
  Blasphemy aganist the Spirit evidently is not just a one-time offense: rather, it is an ongoing attitude of rebellion--a stubborn way of life that continually resists, rejects and insults God's Spirit.
   
  Blasphemy is unforgivable. Only man places a certain degree on sin to rationalize his own actions. Mans sinful nature will be his downfall but it will be cloaked with several names.
   
   

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Copsunited: I still diasagree with you. Religion, most religions anyway, teach that their way is the only way to god. These beliefs breed intolerance of other religions. Intolerance of other relgions breeds religious persecutions and fanatics. What seems to be the root cause here?

• tlj2442 said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Christianity teaches unity, forgiveness, and love. Matthew 5:43_44 "You have heard that it was said, "Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
   
  There is only one true interpertation of the Bible, unfornately there are many applications. I think this is one of the hardest things Christians struggle with today. M Man and his actions are the cause of all turmoil. Not Christ. Many people talk as if they know God but in their hearts they don't. I don't believe what comes out of every pastor, priest or evangelist mouth. I believe in the Bible. I will not condone sin sin but I will pray for the sinner. As a servant of God, I am to draw people to him not drive them away. 

• copsunited said on Nov 20, 2006....

  Nobody Special..seems we are in COMPLETE agreement. I disagree only that the text of any written religion really does not say their religion is the only way to the one God..only that there IS one God. Correct?
   
  Let us NOT confuse Christ and God. Most religions professing or declaring a single diety (God) have their own verison of Messiah. In Christianaity it is The Christ, in others it is Mohammad, Budda or whom ever. Man I hate to get back into thoeolgy this late at night.
   
  It is NOT the religion ..Period. Only what people of the world chose to make of it on their own. Fearing and ignorance others beliefs is what fuels the conflicts. Honest ! Attacking a man in Buffalo because he was wearing a traditional Indian headgear is proof enough of that.
   
  Respectfully..yours.. JD

• ALIENated said on Nov 21, 2006....

  The only thing I fear is the intolerance of radical Islam. Americans, Christians and Jews, believe in freedom of religion. We are not going to force our religion on anyone. Nowadays the American government goes out of its way to squelch anything that even hints of God, such as displaying the Ten Commandments in a courtroom or saying a prayer at a football game. Given the state of things, that might just be OK because others might demand equal time (saying a prayer to Allah at a ball game). I see Christianity spreading love, peace, and the good news of Jesus. I see radical Islam as a dark force demanding allegiance to something Christians could never accept. I know there are dark areas in Christianity as well, but, other than the occasional nut job, can you really imagine any of them strapping bombs to themselves and walking into crowded places on pretty much a daily basis? If I saw all those "good" people of Islam out there trying to stop the radical factions, I might feel differently. Instead I see them shaking their fists at America and the president when he visits.

• copsunited said on Nov 21, 2006....

  Alienated: WE and I mean WE as Americans finance nearly ALL the Islamic countries in the world. Look to Indonesia..we give Billions and Billions every year only to hear chants of "DOWN WITH  AMERICA!!"
   
  Yakov Schmirnoff would say :.. Only in America Folks.
   
  WE have financed nearly all the so called  "bomb squads" for years. When you take an inward look at the need in America..our very own Vererans doing without this year and see what budget we just gave Islamic Indonesia and others  ..I'd suggest a serious talk with your Congressman.

• bloc said on Nov 21, 2006....

  @alienated
  "I see Christianity spreading love, peace, and the good news of Jesus. I see radical Islam as a dark force demanding allegiance to something Christians could never accept. I know there are dark areas in Christianity as well, but, other than the occasional nut job, can you really imagine any of them strapping bombs to themselves and walking into crowded places on pretty much a daily basis?"
  
  I agree with you in general because radical islam is much larger than radical christianity. The fred phelps people, the neo nazis that use christianity for cover, and the people that blow up abortion clinics are just as scary. However, there seem to be far fewer of them than the radical islamists.
  
  I also think there are more sane followers of islam than there are insane ones, just like christianity. I think your comparison of the good side of christianity to the bad side of islam is unfair. I see a lot of intolerance from christians that don't view their christianity as "spreading love, peace, and the good news of Jesus".

• bloc said on Nov 21, 2006....

  @cops
  "Indonesia..we give Billions and Billions every year only to hear chants of "DOWN WITH  AMERICA!!""
  
  How much do you want to bet that we don't even give $1 billion to Indonesia?
  
  And, how much to you want to bet that most of the money we do give is "military aid". I have a hard time calling military aid, aid, because it's purpose is usually to strengthen our military presence in a certain region and has nothing to do with helping whatever country is receiving our "aid".
  

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 21, 2006....

  Copsunited: Religions don’t say there is only one way to God, huh. Christianity does, look at these bible verses?

   

  John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

   

  Acts 4:8-12 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is
     " 'the stone you builders rejected,
        which has become the capstone. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

   

  The religions you mentioned as having their ‘own’ messiah don’t actually have a messiah. They have prophets and messengers but no one that is considered the son of God. Islam actually does believe that Jesus existed but do not believe he was the son of God. They believe he is a messenger of God just like Muhammed, just like Abraham and Moses were. On the other hand, in Buddhism, Buddha isn’t even considered a son of God or even a messenger of God. He is just a man who perfected himself through his philosophy. Buddhists, unlike the previously mentioned religions, don’t believe their way is the only way to salvation.

   

  I don’t see how you can’t see that it is these religions, though not strait forward, that promote intolerance in the end. They cause the divisions we see among people even if most of their teachings are of peace and love. All it takes is a few lines or pages of a larger piece of work to change the overall affect it has on people and society. I know there will be divisions among people even without religion but those can be solved through rational thought while religion only can be proved by the text that form it and are discredited by opposing sides.

• missb said on Nov 21, 2006....

  Nobodyspecial,

  MissB, do you think it is possible that the final religious war will be between secularists/christians and Muslims?
   
  I think it's possible between radical muslims and the people who refuse to submit (could be atheists, buddhists, christians, etc)
   
  IMO, the difference between islam and christians regarding intolerance would lie in the form of actions or lack thereof and what lies in their respective holy books.
   
  If you compare these 2 verses;
   
  Koran 8.39 And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
   

  John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

  In a nut shell, christians tend to "spread the good news", they want to get people to follow Jesus because it is the only way to God. They feel some sort of responsibility to tell people about Jesus, but that's just about as much as they can do.

  With islam, they actually put it into action. It's their ultimate goal to have the world to submit to only islam. It's actually written in the koran.

  Koran 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

  Now, speak to me about "intolerance".

  Cheers :)

• bloc said on Nov 21, 2006....

  @missb
  Didn't God (the christian one) kill the first born son of a bunch of people in egypt because they believed in a different god. Seems pretty much the same as the koran versus you quoted.
  

• missb said on Nov 22, 2006....

  Bloc,
   
  We're not talking about the past. We're talking about modern day religious intolerance. Do you see any christians still killing people now because they have different beliefs? I don't think so. Do you see muslims killing people cause they have different beliefs? You tell me. From what i've read, they even kill their own people for believing different sects of islam (i.e sunni, shia, shiite).
   
  Cheers :)

• ALIENated said on Nov 22, 2006....

  missb: right on.
  
  bloc: I do not remember any Christians being in Egypt during the first Passover, but, as I recall, God took the first born. Do you question His motives? He does things to direct history as He will. I am fearful of radicals whether they call themselves Islamics or Christians. I doubt that they are truly either. It is just that I feel Islam has become more about politics and Christianity is more about worshiping God. I see good Christians criticizing bad "Christians", but I do not see that with Islamics. Maybe I am just not in the right places to see that. I do, however, see you siding with anything unAmerican, which is what scares me about most radical liberals as well.

• bloc said on Nov 22, 2006....

  "Do you see any christians still killing people now because they have different beliefs?"
  
  abortion clinics? I also see this.
  
  "We're not talking about the past. We're talking about modern day religious intolerance."
  
  You specifically quoted the koran and the bible. I pointed out that the bible has the same kind of "kill the infidels" message in parts of it.
  
  @alienated
  I agree with you guys in general, but I think your painting too rosy a picture of christianity. Your trying to have your cake and eat it to by comparing the worst part of islam with the best part of christianity. I'm not saying the two are equal though. Islam clearly has far more radicals and more extreme radicals.
  
  "I see good Christians criticizing bad "Christians", but I do not see that with Islamics."
  
  Because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. My guess is that you keep up with christian stuff more than islamic stuff which is why you see things that way.
  
  "I do, however, see you siding with anything unAmerican, which is what scares me about most radical liberals as well."
  
  I have no idea what your talking about here. Show me where in this post i've sided with the unamericans?
  

• silverwhisper said on Nov 22, 2006....

  i've always found the charge of "unamerican" distressingly useless.
  
  ed
  

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 22, 2006....

  It's more unamerican to call people unamerican for expressing their freedom of speech than it is to disagree with the current government's policies. That's why freedom of speech is there and to try and limit the credibility of such things by calling them 'unamerican' is what is unamerican.

   

  MissB: The Koran also says that anyone who kills an innocent person, believer or not, will never even smell paradise.

• copsunited said on Nov 22, 2006....

  Nobody, I originally thought that you and I were of the same mental level discussing and observing life in the US of Archie..
   
  I think you sorta put a land mine out there in that you were not really interested in what others thought about "Religious Bias and Intolerance."
   
  You already had your mind made up and it was virtually a booby - trap. I knew when I mentioned about the "only one way to God" that it was loaded and I said to my buddy..now that will bring out the bible thumpers in a hurry. It was deliberate and I was not dissapointed.
   
  I'd like to be friends..can we get past this..?? Or have you missed the connection??
   
  JD

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 22, 2006....

  A lot of what I said was booby trapped. I originally was trying to make a point, not only on intolerance, but on the difference between religion and spirituality. Spirituality being defined as the path to a higher power, afterlife, etc. while religion being the system which complicates spirituality, whether it is defined by the bible, koran, torah, etc. I haven't had a chance to say that yet since I was waiting for the right setup, but no matter how close the arguements got it didn't get there. And I wanted to see if any one would call me satanic, but that didn't happen.

• missb said on Nov 23, 2006....

  Bloc,

  I've discussed this with SeanR before and i can't believe i'm going there again. Anyway, the abortion clinic bombers are a small friction of misguided christians compared to the radical muslims (I believe we agree on this one) and we don't condone anything they did. If anything, we condemn them. They're not different from the islamic suicide bombers. Also, gay haters and murderers are hardly in the same league, aren't they?

  You specifically quoted the koran and the bible. I pointed out that the bible has the same kind of "kill the infidels" message in parts of it.

  That's why I also said "IMO, the difference between islam and christians regarding intolerance would lie in the form of actions or lack thereof ..."

  Can you honestly say that christians are so intolerant? Really? Let me refresh your memory. From the murder of Theo Van Gogh (submission movie), Hitoshi Iragasi (japanese translator of the book the satanic verses) to the fatwa call for death to Salman Rushdie to the cartoon riot all over the world, the pope remarks and so many others, can you still say that christians are the intolerant ones? Honestly?

  Christianity has been bashed and "blasphemed" over and over again to some points that are beyond my comprehension, but do you see us burning and bombing buildings down, making death threats to others? Geez...

  Like i said before, i think political correctness is BS. It doesn't work fairly. People bash christianity because we don't bite and we keep our heads down instead of stabbing you to death, strapping bombs to ourselves and "smiting your neck", so to speak. People are so afraid of "offending" muslims, so they turn their focus on something else. You gotta give it to the australians, though. They really take no bullshit from radical muslims.

  The way I see it, you americans are pointing your gun to the wrong enemy. Dig deeper, you may see who the real enemy is.

  Nobodyspecial,

  Would you be kind enough to refer which verse in the koran that says that? I know that the koran and the bible both have verses that contradict each other. As you know, islam also refers to the Hadith as being as important as the koran itself. They're like the pillars of islam. One can't work without the other.

  As for the koran, there are discrepancies in its verses. Like one time it says don't kill people but the other says kill the infidels. From what i gather, the don't kill part was written before mohammad gained political powers in Arabia and the kill part was written after.

  [sigh] I could go on... :/

  Cheers :)

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 23, 2006....

  missb: Check out this link. It's where I got most of my information about Islam.

  Copsunited: Just to let you know I'm not a bible thumper. I'm actually an athiest.

• copsunited said on Nov 24, 2006....

  Nobady. Your knowledge of and pursuit of religion is commendable. But it sure begs the Question: why? Why care that much? If it was a world at risk issue and you were in a position to change the course of history, world or mankind then I could see it but it seems more  a labor of "Now I gotcha you son-of-a-bitch".
   
  I got to tell ya..I do admire you ..I mean that from the bottom of me wee pea pickin' ignorant heart..yuppers...
   
  Luvs ya..JD..aka ..the Cop

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 24, 2006....

  The main thing is that I was raised as a Christian then before becoming athiest I looked into a lot of other religions. I've read on almost any topic, from Islam to Wicca. I guess I just got a curious nature.

• bloc said on Nov 25, 2006....

  @missb
  I agree with you in general. The only issue I had with what you said is that you wanted to compare the best parts of christianity with the worst parts of islam. There are a ton of good and decent muslims just like there are christians. There are more fanatical muslims than christians as you point out.
  
  "but do you see us burning and bombing buildings down, making death threats to others? Geez..."
  
  Didn't pat robertson, a major christian leader, say that we should assassinate chavez on national t.v.? I bet if I look it up I can find some famous christians implying that certain supreme court justices should be killed!
  
  I, of course, understand that this isn't how most christians view their faith.You seem to be implying that islam, by it's nature is bad, because of the crazy islamists. Be careful with that type of logic
  

• ALIENated said on Nov 25, 2006....

  If you cannot see the difference in Islam and Christianity, there is nothing to discuss. I, as a Christian, think Islam is wrong and leads people astray. I am sure Islamics feel the same about Christianity. Why would I be tolerant of something that I feel leads people astray. It is my belief that Jesus is the messiah and is God. He said the only way to heaven was through belief in Him. I would never kill anyone or commit any kind of violence over it. I condemn people that do violence in the name of Christianity as I think Jesus would. I just do not see Islamics, in general, condemning people doing violence in the name of Islam. They actually cheer them on. Look at Iraq. I think Islam promotes violence if needed. Christianity does not. I would like to be fair and reasonable about the whole thing, but I do not think that is possible. God wants us to come to Him voluntarily through Jesus. Islam is the intolerant religion. It is their way are the headless way. When we are fighting for our way of life, probably in our own neighborhoods, which side will you be on? You will not be able to ride the fence then. Political correctness will be so much babble. You will have to make a choice.

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 25, 2006....

  The main reason you do not see the condemnation of violence by Muslim is either because you don't want to, don't look for it, or just because of your bias towards Christianity. Here are a few links: link one, link two, link three, link four, link five, and link six.

  Our way of life isn't neccessarily Christian, it is freedom. Don't get them mixed around because I'm sure there are many Christians out there who would like to see all other ways of life sweeped out of this country. Intolerance goes hand and hand with religion.

• bloc said on Nov 26, 2006....

  "I just do not see Islamics, in general, condemning people doing violence in the name of Islam."
  
  I showed you two examples earlier, nobodyspecial showed you more, and I can show you many more if you'd like.
  
  "I think Islam promotes violence if needed. Christianity does not."
  
  Do we really want to talk about christian history in this regard? I mean, we all know that some of the most violent periods in western history were the result of christian rulers. I don't think this is any indication of true christianity though, but i'm pointing it out to show you why your narrow view of islam could be applied to christianity as well.
  
  "Islam is the intolerant religion. It is their way are the headless way."
  
  Again, your using the extremists to paint a bad view of islam. I could use christian extremists to do the same thing. Let's not generalize based on such things.
  

• ALIENated said on Nov 26, 2006....

  Thanks for the links, but some of them actually seem to demonstrate my point. One talked about Islamics that comdemned the terrorists, but were afraid to say anything for fear of getting in trouble with their Islamic community, which is exactly what I am talking about. As Islam gets stronger around the world, fewer will feel free to disagree with the violent take over that terrorists plan.
  
  I have to agree that violence has been done in the name of Christianity, but that was in the past when violence was being done in the name of just about everything. I would assume we are talking about the crusades? And I will repeat, I do not consider people who do things like blow up abortion clinics (as much as they need to be) Christians. You are using them as extremist Christian examples. I am saying they are not Christians. They are people who hate abortion and are calling themselves Christians, hoping that will somehow make them seem more acceptable. Some of the guys on TV are the same deal. They call themselves Christians, but they are scam artists.
  
  So, as usual, we will just have to agree to disagree.

• missb said on Nov 26, 2006....

  Bloc,

  You seem to be implying that islam, by it's nature is bad, because of the crazy islamists.

  I live in the most populous muslim country in the world. I've met and known more muslims than you possibly have. They're wonderful people, they're my friends. Never that I think islam by nature was bad. It was just the wrong people using religion's name.

  But then I read more, I dug deeper, from the biography of mohammad, the koran to the hadith and what's happened in the world. I put two and two together and came to the conclusion that it actually is bad by nature. But please remember, Islam and Muslims are two different things for me. I don't hate muslims at all, unless of course, the radicals/terrorists.

  Try reading this and this and this.

  Nobodyspecial,

  The link you gave me, the one where you got most of the information about islam from USC is very likely to be funded by the rich muslims from arab nations. My recommended sites and yours are probably against each other because we may be biased. It seems like your sites are mostly defending islam and mine on the contrary. Please refer to my recommended sites I wrote above to bloc.

  Cheers :)

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 26, 2006....

  Thanks for those links, but I do think those are somewhat biased to Christianity since they mention Islam's disbelief in the Christian view of Jesus as one of the main points (all three of them did this). The site I used was biased all the same since it was sponsored by the MSA (Muslim Student Association of Canada and the USA). I'll try to find a site that is more or less an open search of the Koran.

• bloc said on Nov 26, 2006....

  @missb
  I followed those links and only one had easy to find quotes from the koran. I didn't see any of the bad koran quotes that didn't equal something I could find in the bible. Read them yourself and ask yourself if you can't find similar things in the bible.
  
  This is the link Notice that it starts out saying that islam is bad because he looks down on women. We all know that the bible is the same in this regard! Here are some bible verses for you.
  
  Are they really much different?
  

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 26, 2006....

  Now someone will say that the Bible was misquoted while the Koran was not.

• missb said on Nov 27, 2006....

  Bloc and Nobodyspecial,
   
  Right. It seems like we can never find a common ground for this. We all know that anyway :/ I can't believe i'm debating about the dangers of islam to atheists. You're supposed to be the ones who gather all facts, put two and two together and understand the difference between christianity and islam by facts.
   
  Btw, the first site I recommended (http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm) is not biased to christianity. It was founded by Mr. Ali Sina, an Iranian ex-muslim who is now an atheist, NOT a christian. Check out the "debate" section and there you will find his many debates with muslim scholars about islam.
   
  Bloc,
  I'm well aware of the fact that there are many similarities between the koran and the bible regarding those you mentioned. But real christians tend to live life by jesus' examples and teachings. Which is why we mostly refer to the new testament than the old testament. Jesus is the core foundation of christianity.
   
  Now, if a muslim lives his life by examples of how Mohammad lived his life, how would it be? Please read this debate about Humanity vs Mohammad.
   
  I'd say that's pretty much the way those muslim radicals live their lives.
   
  Cheers :)

• bloc said on Nov 27, 2006....

  "But real christians tend to live life by jesus' examples and teachings."
  
  It depends which ones you talk about. Again, pat robertson called for the assassination of a democratically elected president on national t.v. That doesn't sound very christlike to me. I just think it's unfair to compare the best of christianity to the worst of islam.
  
  radical fundamentalists need to be dealt with whether they are muslims or christians. At this time there seem to be a lot more radical muslims and we most certainly need to deal with them.
  

• NobodySpecial said on Nov 27, 2006....

  "But real christians tend to live life by jesus' examples and teachings. Which is why we mostly refer to the new testament than the old testament."

   

  Not all of the examples that bloc linked to were from the Old Testament. There were ones from the New Testament. Plus I remember when I still went to church when I was younger a pastor told me that no part of the Bible is above any other. They all are to be taken equally and what they say should still be applied today. Also I know that you mentioned that there is almost two different personalities displayed by Muhammad in the Koran, one seems to be the peaceful side and the other seems to be the vengeful/radical side. I can see the same difference in the Old and New Testament in the Bible. The main difference that I can see between the two faiths is that Christianity has already matured past the point of violence in converting non-believers and Islam has not.

   

  Thanks for pointing out that link to faith freedom. I looked through them too quick the first time and the bias in the other ones stood out to me.

   

  "You're supposed to be the ones who gather all facts, put two and two together and understand the difference between Christianity and Islam by facts"

   

  Normally atheists don't try and point out the differences between religions, rather than that usually they try and point out the irrationality of them. A site that I often visit that does just that is The Secular Web.  This site's aim is to remove religion from the government (allowing true separation of Church and State) and to promote a naturalistic view of the world.

   

  I think the main point Bloc and I both were trying to make is that even though Islam has its bad side it does have its good side just like Christianity has a bad side and a good side. I know the bad side of Islam does stand out more than that of Christianity, but it doesn't mean that Christianity is all good either.

• missb said on Nov 30, 2006....

  Bloc & Nobody,

  Geez....noone said that all christians are good. Who said that? I didn't. I swear :) So what the hell have we been debating about? Hmm...I wonder :/

  Anyway,

  Bloc,

  about pat robertson, that's not "real" christianity. That's why i said "Real Christians" in the first place. And i'm not trying to compare the best of christianity to the worst of islam, because there's nothing to compare :) It’s like this, action speaks louder than words, yes? Comparing the bible and koran, those are just ‘theories” so to speak. But what’s most important is what the people put in practice.

  History has taught us a lot of things and I think we all agree that christianity has matured.

  Nobody,

  Yes, the FFI website is not biased to christianity. The islamreview I must admit that it is, though.

  So anyway, I guess this is it. We've finally found a common ground. I can't believe it! :)

  Cheers!

• bloc said on Nov 30, 2006....

  "But what’s most important is what the people put in practice."
  
  Yes it is, and I give you pat robertson as an example or the people that blow up abortion clinics, or the ones that threaten to kill judges. Don't you get it. Your are comparing the best of christianity with the worst of islam because when we point out the idiots like pat robertson you say he isn't a "real" christian. How about this, the terrorists aren't "real" muslims so please tell my how the real muslims are bad? See? Your only comparing the good christians to the bad muslims.
  

• missb said on Dec 01, 2006....

  Bloc,

  Right. Ok... Did it ever occur to you that those muslim terrorists/extremists are perhaps the "real" muslims? Those who actually do what their prophet and holy book tell them to do?

  See, when you compare the lives of Jesus and Mohammad, you can see the difference. Mohammad was a war god, so to speak. It's all about politics. He spread his religion through invasion, by the sword. He was nobody before he married Khadijah, his first wife. She's a very powerful woman and very rich. After he married her, he started gaining political powers. God, I'm really putting my neck on the line here if i go on.

  So the point is, I'm not comparing the best of christians to the worst of muslims. I'm merely comparing the lives of each respective prophet.

  Cheers!

  P.S: SC really needs to get this editing bug fixed, STAT!

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