silverwhisper's tags:

one online discussion forum i frequent is geared towards players of RPGs.  i’ve spent since the summer of 1998 there and one particular forum is geared to a more free-form kind of discussion that isn’t about gaming per se: it’s about the issues of the day or things that matter to the folks there.  it’s been a great way to get a re-education in the art of the argument: how to read one, how to present one and how to defend one.

modesty aside, i’m generally pretty good at this.  when i take the time to construct an argument, i am careful (generally) about taking a position that doesn’t reach too far.  i also am generally pretty good at recognizing when an argument is destined to end in agreeing to disagree: the underlying assumptions are sometimes just too disparate to permit much meaningful discussion and in the kinds of topics that arise online, that happens a lot.

despite being asian, i generally suck at math.  i just do.  i use spreadsheets or calculators to do math for me b/c i dislike it so.  but the math class at which i did least poorly was geometry, b/c that was where i first learned the logical structure of a proof.  i understood that if you are given certain underlying assumptions (formally called givens), the proof itself is nothing but pure logic, and that appealed to me.  it was my first glimpse into why mathematicians can call a proof beautiful.

i find that i take for granted the fact that if i make an argument, i lay out my objective, my supporting reasons and/or any supporting facts (e.g., polls, quotations or the like) and my conclusion.  i similarly take it for granted that these things must all logically follow.  and i take for granted that when i have done so, someone who wishes to dispute the validity of the argument must attack the supporting evidence or the flow of logic in order to make a valid point, as the argument presented ought to be free of errors.

that i take these things for granted is evidently bad.  i say that b/c in talking w/ a friend—an instructor by trade—some weeks ago, i was horrified to learn that the majority of the students w/ whom my friend dealt did not understand the concept of creating an argument and why mere opinion doesn’t matter.  and we’re not talking about elementary or high school students: the students in question are (ostensibly) college students!

while that’s clearly some kind of failure on the students’ part or perhaps the education system’s, the fact remains that these kids are going to enter the workforce without much familiarity in the use of the rather indispensable tool we know as logic.  how these kids reached the age of 18 and fail to understand how to make an argument…after all, most writing assignments they would have gotten in high school depended upon being able to do this.

i can only shake my head sadly at such news.  i don’t understand how it’s possible for someone to think that presenting nothing but opinion constitutes an argument.  i mean, sure, i guess it’s funny for a blogger to rail about the uselessness of opinion, but you know, i don’t care: i’m capable of distinguishing b/n facts and opinions.

 

so am i just taking myself too darned seriously, or have you, too, noticed a dearth of good arguments?  is the beauty of a proof something that makes sense or is it just so much “blah blah blah”?  comment and let me know.

ed


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Comments

  • lioneljay said on Nov 16, 2006....
    I struggled against the same problem when I taught. We live in a culture that values individual opinion to the extent that people have lost any reverence for supporting evidence. It was a real struggle to get youngsters to see why it's important to have evidence to back up your claims.

    When I taught writing I used to use the example of a lawyer presenting a case in court. The thesis was, "My client is innocent of the charge." The supporting points were his various pieces of evidence. I instructed the students to frame their papers in the same way, with an overriding thesis and supporting points that, like a lawyer's evidence, would make their case.

    This approach worked much less well than I thought it would and eventually I figured out why: my students' familiarity with courtroom cases is different from mine. I watched Perry Mason argue cases on television and he used classical argumentation. Today's youngsters don't have a Perry Mason example to follow. Instead, they have re-runs of Night Court where Dan Fielding isn't quite up to the Perry Mason standard. They have the example of Jim Carrey in Liar.

    Opinion is what matters today, not reasoned civil discourse. Just ask the producers at Fox News.
  • silverwhisper said on Nov 16, 2006....
    gods but that's distressing, LJ.

    ed
  • nytquill17 said on Nov 16, 2006....
    I am something of a "whippersnapper."  If I'd finished college, I would've graduated just last May.  As a teenager I taught myself about classic proofs using an old college book of my mothers - I'm weird like that; taught myself Latin, too.   I'm with you, SW - the logic of proofs is just gorgeous.  All the pieces fall right into place, and the whole thing is just so comprehensible at the end.

    Logic is behind a lot of writing too, like you said.  I couldn't imagine having gotten through all my high school and college essays without some idea of how to form an argument.  I don't know that it came from my work with the logic book; I think a lot of it was just intuitive to me: a thesis, your reasoning for said thesis, along with your evidence for said reasoning, leading to your conclusion.  I mean, that's basic essay structure, isn't it?

    I'm a fool for structure.  I can't wrap my brain around anything - essay, speech,  even fiction to some degree - unless I understand its basic framework.  Once, in college, when I had a 20-page paper to write, I freaked out my roommate: she came into the room to find me sitting on the floor, pages of notes and drafts all around me, throwing said pages around, muttering, "I can't see anything!"  I was trying to make sure my structure was comprehensible over all twenty pages, and getting a bit beyond my mental processing power!

    I don't think I'm all that crotchety, but it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone could make it to college thinking that "because I think so" is somehow enough.  I mean, it simply does not compute!  How...I mean..is there, like... are we devolving, and losing synapses?

    But then, I look at all the election campaigns in the past handful of years - lioneljay is right.  The newsmedia, politicians, even the president, are all teaching our kids that all that matters is opinions and how loudly and viciously you can condemn anyone who doesn't agree with you.  We're no longer arguing or explaining, we're bullying.  And the saddest thing of all is that, apparently, it's working.
  • the_infernal_optimist said on Nov 16, 2006....
    " i generally suck at math.  i just do.  i use spreadsheets or calculators to do math for me b/c i dislike it so.  but the math class at which i did least poorly was geometry, b/c that was where i first learned the logical structure of a proof.  i understood that if you are given certain underlying assumptions (formally called givens), the proof itself is nothing but pure logic, and that appealed to me.  it was my first glimpse into why mathematicians can call a proof beautiful."

    Get out of my head! :) I loved geometry and hated most everything else in math. Logic appealed to me so much that I took a logic course in college, and ended up minoring in computer science, which was the discipline under which logic fell. I also had an awesome world religions course that discussed logic a great deal. I love logic puzzles and proofs and all of that stuff. :)

    That aside, I agree with the above posts that we no longer seem to debate but argue based on personal attacks of "You're wrong and your opinion is inferior because it's not what I think." Just look in any Hot Topics thread almost anywhere.

    It is horrifying to me that so-called "adults," 18yo men and women, arrive at institutions of higher education without the foggiest idea of how to support their thinking on a given subject. I worked at the university's writing center, and aieeeeeeee - some of the argumentative assignments were so poorly thought out that one question completely shattered the paper. *facepalm*

    I tend to be irrationally emotional over topics I'm most passionate about, but I can still give you a well-reasoned opinion on them. How can your voice make a difference if all you say is "I think" without "because" following?
  • silverwhisper said on Nov 17, 2006....
    nyt, infernal, i'm really scared now... :D

    yeah, all one really sees are ad hominems, slippery slope and a host of other logical fallacies.  is this what happens to people who listen to too much talk radio junk?

    hey, maybe it's all rush limbaugh's fault!  :D

    ed

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