• kelly said on Jun 22, 2006....

  I'm not sure why religious people keep insisting that god dislikes homosexuality. If that's the case, is there some sort of hierarchy of god's dislikes? Does he dislike homosexuals more than, say, arsonists? What about shoplifters? Terrorists? In the end I'm not sure it even matters whether a "homo" is born or made. Don't you think it matters more what kind of person he or she is? It's my conjecture that religions prohibit homosexual behavior because it doesn't add to the population base--and thus, power base--of the religious group and thus the reason for completely ignoring the rest of a gay persons outlooks and behaviors. Now, a little more on point, it's quite possible that events in early life may have an effect on sexual orientation, but every gay person I've ever heard speak of their awakenings made it seem quite apparent that they were born that way. With all the hardship that gay people endure it seems unlikely that as many would "choose" that lifestyle if they could avoid it.

• twist said on Jun 22, 2006....

  Thank you for your comments,Kelly. You are correct, I should have mentioned that the way I understand it, God dislikes homosexuality as much as any sexual activity outside of a committed (marriage) relationship. I'll be waiting for more comments, hopefully some from homosexuals (active or not) that shed some light on the question of whether they believe that they were born that way or somehow acquired that preference.

• RobsStuff said on Jun 23, 2006....

  Hi Twist, The "born" or "made" argument rages accross the world. The Center for Traditional Values claims its a choice I tend not to agree. As a gay man I often joked that if there was a pill to make me straight I would take it. Its hard living in a world that condems you for being different from the norm in only one way - your sexual identity. I have written about it on my blog maybe if you read that you would get an idea of what its like. I cant gaurentee it will answer your question but it might create a context within which you can explore the question. Ciao, Rob

• sociologically_speaking said on Jun 23, 2006....

  Dear Twist, Yes it's me again. We are getting to be good friends, aren't we? Well, I just wanted to tell you that I wish you the best; and I hope that a boatload of your respondents to the mortgage *ad* (lets call a spade a spade, shall we?) are a copiuous amount of ass-kicking motorbiking tatooed homosexuals. Love, Your Best Friend Ever PS, Your two sons haven't told you yet, but they're gay.

• kelly said on Jun 23, 2006....

  I'm not sure why sociologically_speaking made such a hostile response but from the tone of it perhaps there is some kind of feud in progress. It does lead me to think about my own responses to various posts and serves as a reminder that politeness and consideration will get you much farther than vitriole. I realize that in these increasingly crass times that we live in there is a tendency--especially online--to say things we would never dare say to someone face-to-face, but it would be nice if we all took a moment to calm down and step back for a moment or two before we hit the submit button. Myself included.

• twist said on Jun 23, 2006....

  Dear Kelly, I don't know why sociologically is so hostile. I don't know her at all. And yes, sociologically, of course my blog about reverse mortgages is an ad. I am promoting myself, aren't you? It is really nice and encouraging and a lot more constructive to receive opposing viewpoints in a civilized manner. If this little exchange of pleasantries has encouraged you in that regard, it was all worth it. Keep it up

• twist said on Jun 23, 2006....

  Hey, Rob, it has taken me awhile to respond to you, and I don't know, whether to respond here or on your blog. I hope you read this. I have read your blogs and am still trying to digest them. What a bio. My heart goes out to you, even if not all the facts are objectively accurate. I am sure few people have had to go through internal and external struggles like you, and the most amazing thing is that I don't detect any bitterness in you. Has it ever occurred to you that God has not allowed you to kill yourself, because you could help so many other hurting people? P. S. You are a poet, too.

• eve1 said on Jun 23, 2006....

  Twist, I thought that if you even have homosexual thoughts, that's a sin. The Lord said if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, it's better to have one eye in heaven than your whole body in hell.(or something like that) To me, even if you have homosexual thoughts, thats a sin......I'm not downing homosexuals, to me, that statement is for heterosexuals also. Ex. If your married and you have your eyes on someone else, besides your mate. You don't have to commit the sexual act, even thinking about it is a sin. Right? In other words, we are all guilty of lust. I think pretty much everyone has eyed someone in a sexual way, or dreamed about someone other than your mate, or was just plain attracted to someone else.

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jun 24, 2006....

  What does it matter whether it is something people are born with, or if it is a choice? I, too, am interested in an answer, but I don't think there's a viable way of proving such a thing. In the end, I think Bachman Turner Overdrive had it right. "Any love is good love."

• twist said on Jun 24, 2006....

  Eve, I am no theologian by any means, but my understanding is that thoughts are neutral, it is what we do with them, that counts. Notice that it says: if your right eye causes you to sin, i. e. if it causes you to do something sinful, it would be better to pluck it out, because obviously the worst thing that could possibly happen is to spend eternity in hell. It is obviously not meant literally, but only as a comparison. Nonetheless I am a Christian, because christianity is a logical religion, and it is an unalterable fact that man is a sinful creature, who will never under any circumstances be able to be good enough to be acceptable to God and therefore I am very glad, that God provided a Savior, so that I won't even have to try to justify myself, because I can't. And the question remains, is homosexuality any worse than any other sin, and the obvious answer has to be, no. Otherwise it would be the unpardonable sin. The tricky question is: Should we therefore sin a lot, so that God's grace would abound, and that is obviously not the answer either, so where do we draw the line? And I believe, that is where everybody's conscience comes in. You see, I do believe that God is as much a loving Heavenly Father as He is a strict judge, and He knows who can handle what, for example it was relatively easy for me to quit smoking, but I can understand that for someone else it might be more difficult. I am not saying that smoking is sinful. I am just using this example. I. e. one person with homosexual tendencies may be able to control himself, not to act on them, while someone else may not be able. And only God would know the difference. I hope that this may answer GumpyJumptooth's question to some extent, and I do not agree that "any love is good love", because the definition of the word "love" is far too vague. True love is to do what is best for someone else, while we commonly think that love is what feels best for us, but that is a totally different subject, that I really don't want to get into here right now, maybe some other time. I don't know, if I have been helpful to anybody, and I am still trying to figure this out. By the way, I have referred to homosexuality as sin in order not to write another whole paragraph. As mentioned above, I believe that the Bible refers not to homosexuality but homosexual acts as sinful.

• eve1 said on Jun 24, 2006....

  Thanks Twist, I'll look that up. It sounds reasonable. I'll find the verse and get a better understanding.

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jun 24, 2006....

  >>I hope that this may answer GumpyJumptooth's question to some extent, and I do not agree that "any love is good love", because the definition of the word "love" is far too vague. True love is to do what is best for someone else, while we commonly think that love is what feels best for us, but that is a totally different subject, that I really don't want to get into here right now, maybe some other time.<< What makes you think I'm looking for an answer? And why in the world, if two people are obeying the law and consenting adults and have a situation that's working for THEM, do you feel the need to define it for other people. NEWS FLASH: The Bible isn't a binding document on anyone who doesn't believe in Christianity. To apply Christian values to everyone in a place where freedom of religion is guaranteed is zealotry. The Bible tells people to do a whole lot of things which, if followed, would have people thrown in jail.

• twist said on Jun 24, 2006....

  Eve, if you have any more questions, I'll be happy to elaborate to the best of my understanding. Gumpy, in your original comment you said, you were interested in an answer - anyhow, as the saying goes: If the shoe fits, wear it, if not .......

• twist said on Jun 24, 2006....

  Eve, in case you come back: Do you have a blog? I couldn't find it, neither could I find you among popular users, but then I couldn't find myself either. I am new to this and still trying to find my way around, but maybe I just need glasses

• lidstrom82 said on Jun 25, 2006....

  Hey twist, I think you've taken an honest effort in seeking answers and perspective in the interest of raising your son well. As well, you've been honest with your beliefs without stomping on others' perspectives unknowingly. kelly and gumpy, you both have insightful things to say but frankly, what you know about the Bible itself is lacking. It's not that Christianity frowns upon homosexuality because it doesn't promote the power base of Christianity itself, Kelly - it's that the Bible calls homosexuality "an abomination". It's not a political power struggle (at least, it shouldn't be) in the church, it's a biblical principle. And Gumpy, please keep in mind that much of the Bible was written by Believers who were imprisoned, tortured, and/or murdered. This happened because the Truth was greater than the legal and political powers of the day. So if they were beaten or flogged in this world because of following God, they knew eternity in peace with God in Heaven was WORTH imprisonment. That's not stupidity - that's bravery. And it's smart - most of us would go through a day of suffering if it meant a year of happiness, for example. The Bible may not carry much weight with everyone in this world, but when life really brings us to our knees it tends to be the most helpful source of comfort and strength. That includes homosexuals. A person can be born in a dirt-poor family, but that doesn't assign them to poverty for life. It IS possible to become more. Homosexuality might be something that a person could experience since they began having conscious thought, but that doesn't assign them to be gay for the rest of their lives. Is it difficult? YES. But is it doable? You bet. God doesn't love homosexuals less than anyone else, and He does not appreciate the hatred some Christians bring down upon homosexuals. However, doing something against what God has warned against will have consequences. In that sense, we must avoid sinning not just because it's what God says, but because of this: when we do sin, we hurt ourselves in some way. Physically, mentally, spiritually, etc. If you resort to violence, eventually you become a victim of violence. If you gossip and talk against someone behind their back, there will be rumors and lies spread about you, too. For active homosexual people, going against the natural sexual norm comes with some tension and unacceptance from the majority.

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jun 26, 2006....

  What I know about the Bible is lacking? Perhaps to a zealot. And that's the problem with the Bible. Everyone interprets it in their own way, don't they? What is so difficult about understanding that THE BIBLE doesn't rule the way people behave. Unless, of course, you CHOOSE to believe in the Bible. If you would like, I will provide you a list of things the Bible tells people to do. It is a list you don't hear about very much in this day and age, but it's pretty scatterbrained behavior. Like menstruating women having to live in a tent because they're unfit for society. I could go on, if you wish? There are all sorts of hilarious instructions in the Bible. Which verse is correct? 2Chr36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD. -OR- 2Ki24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. There are MANY other contradictory verses in the Bible. This seems odd for a work that was “divinely inspired” or “the infallible word of God”. If the errors are attributed to copyists, then the entire Bible is suspect. Who’s to say which portions were copied correctly and which weren’t? The prose of Biblical apologists is rife with "probably", "possibly", "maybe", "perhaps", "may have", "may not have", "could be", and "may be". Did God intend that his word be misunderstood? Did he want us to be confused? Why are women denigrated?: 1Tim2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1Tim2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority While slavery might have been “accepted” during both Old and New Testament times, we now know that slavery is WRONG. Aren’t moral absolutes eternal? The biblical god is a macho male warrior. Though he said "Thou shalt not kill," he ordered death for all opposition, wholesale drowning and mass exterminations (How many infants and children were killed by God in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? How many infants and children were killed by God during the "Great" flood?); punishing offspring to the fourth generation (Ex. 20:5); ordering pregnant women and children to be ripped up (Hos. 13:16); demanding animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity; is partial to one race of people; judges women to be inferior to men; is a sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; created evil (Is. 45:7); discriminated against the handicapped (Lev. 21:18-23); ordered virgins to be kept as spoils of war (Num. 31:15-18, Deut. 21:11-14); spread dung on people's faces (Mal. 2:3); sent bears to devour 42 children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ez. 5:10). Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person? Here's another example, in 2 Samuel 24 when God moved David to take a census, then it turns out that it was sinful for David to have taken a census (even though God does not lead people to sin according to James 1:13), then God punishes David for this sinful act by killing 70,000 other people. 1 Chronicles 20 retells this story with Satan in the role of inciting David to sin by taking a census, thus revising the earlier version to get God off that hook. However, God still punishes David by killing 70,000 people whose only apparent crime was to have been among those David counted in his somehow sinful census. How about: 1 Sam. 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. This was apparently done because their ancestors had done something to displease God several centuries earlier. Most of these are acts. I could get into instructions God left in "The Bible." But you wouldn't listen anyway. You'll rationalize and rationalize. One more time: YOU are not the universe's personally chosen interpreter of The Bible. And even if you were, The Bible is only binding on Christians. We live in a country where freedom of religion is guaranteed, and there is a constitutional separation of Church and State. Now you can go back to being concerned with where other people put their body parts and judging whether it's a sin.

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jun 26, 2006....

  The Biblical account of Noah and the ark presents many grave problems for me: 1. A boat of the stated size, made strictly of wood, could not support its own weight, much less the weight of the animals and supplies to be added to it. 2. There is no physical, scientific evidence of a worldwide flood with floodwaters covering all the highest mountain peaks. 3. All the water of the earth, including ice-caps, is, by far, insufficient to cover all the land-masses. Where did all this additional water come from? Where did it go? 4. Disregarding the conflicting references to the number of “clean” animals loaded aboard the ark, two animals of each species could not possibly fit in the space defined by the dimensions of the ark. 5. How could Noah (even with the help of his family members) gather up a male and female of all 500,000+ species of beetles, when even entomologists with microscopes often find it impossible to differentiate the sexes (not to mention all the other species of insects, birds, mammals, reptiles, marsupials, and invertebrates)? 6. Even if they COULD have been gathered and sexed, how much time would it take to load each pair of animals aboard the ark, find a place for them, and provide for the varied and diverse physical and environmental needs of each species? 7. What did all the carnivorous animals eat in the days and weeks after they left the ark and before their prey animals had reproduced? 8. How was a viable population established for all those different species of animals with only a single breeding pair of each to provide a genetic base? 9. What is the explanation for the geographical isolation of many species of animals (and plants)? For example, why are kangaroos only found in Australia, and why were tomatoes and potatoes only native to the Americas? 10. I find it impossible to believe that out of all the people on the face of the earth at that time, ALL were unworthy of God’s grace except Noah and his family. ALL were killed by the flood. ALL presumably went to hell for eternity. 11. Why were all but a pair of each of the animals destroyed? Had they all become wicked and evil too? This story is too similar to prior “flood myths” that originated in other cultures. Its ludicrous impossibility casts aspersions on the validity and truth of ALL the stories in the Bible. But I can continue, if you wish. What you have is a religious document that certain people believe in. If it was a matter of personal faith, I'd say fine. But when personal faith slips into the judgement of OTHERS, and attributing sins to their mutually consentual, legal, and private behavior? Then this document is laughable and you are a zealot who is getting off on thinking you're better than others because your own personal INTERPRETATION of The Bible conveniently allows you to. Is tongue kissing bad? Are all those people going to hell? Please, give us a list of sexual positions and activities THE BIBLE allows. Make sure and include plenty with underage girls, with whom THE BIBLE has no problem suggesting should lay down with men.

• lidstrom82 said on Jun 26, 2006....

  Hey Gumpy, If nothing else sticks out from these words, know this: I do appreciate the time you've taken to point out inconsistencies in the Bible, and to present your points. Thank you for clearly stating that. We have to remember that this is twist's blog. My response wasn't to incite anger in anybody, but rather to offer some points to help twist teach his son about the nature of homosexuality. That is the most helpful focus of these comments. So here's some more thoughts, to twist and to gumpy: twist - The Bible has a clear position upon homosexuality, so your best bet is to see what it says and seek counsel from fellow Christians. It's important that your son can love homosexual people he meets in life unconditionally, but still know that their sexual behavior is not what God intended - it brings more harm than pleasure. Sin is separation from God at the core, and since we can do anything with God's power, we are shooting ourselves in the foot when we separate ourselves from God. Gumpy is right - it's not our job to judge homosexuals, but if we encourage the behavior or turn a blind eye to it, we're allowing the person to hurt themselves, and that is a sin in itself - we have to love one another. Teach your son to love each person equally no matter what they say or believe, and look to the Bible on how to know what is sin and what is good in God's eyes and for the lives of others. Gumpy - I won't argue the consistency of the Bible with you - arguing isn't really how people change. The thing that changes people is usually going through some kind of ordeal or struggle with others. So let's struggle in this together. What do I mean? Let me explain. I went to Border's the other day and picked up a book entitled, "Jesus Misquoted". At first look I thought it was a book that set the record straight about some false beliefs that are spread because people misinterpreted the Bible, or took it out of context. What I got instead was a book by an author who was a bonr-again Christian that realized that the more education he received on the Bible, the more faulty is became in his eyes. He went on to explain that Scripture was shaped and molded by the translators, the scholars, people who affected Scripture with the traditions, beliefs, and languages of their day. Yes, there are contradictions in the Bible. This is something I've recently explored myself. If two accounts of the same person conflict with each other in the Bible, who's to say that everything in it was fabricated, added, or changed? This is for sure: the Old Testament was written in an ancient culture that is very different from our today, Gumpy. Back then God made a covenant promise to them with very clear conditions. When they broke them, God punished them. The things you explained above showed God as wrathful - on the other hand, what if the Israelites deserved it? What if the people of Noah's day really were that wicked? And who would know better then God whether they were wicked? That old covenant was rendered largely obsolete when Jesus arrived. Therein lies the true strength of the Bible. What Jesus taught is followed by many today without them knowing it. Lots of people know "the right thing to do" without knowing why it's right. Chances are, Jesus taught it. You said something really good, Gumpy, that it's not our job to judge. It's not my job to judge. But if the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong, I will say that because it is what twist wants to know. That is not judging. To me, that's stating fact. If the Bible isn't perfect, how do we know that any of it is fact? When you apply it to other people in real life. My wife and I just returned from Mexico this weekend. We went to Ensenada to bring food and toys to Mexican families and their children. Beans and rice aren't much to us, but handing them out to families who only have shacks made of tin scraps...it gave them hope. When we are selfless and give to others without them earning it, we bless them. A big group of us went down to do this and other things because of what Jesus said and did in the Bible. And it was obviously a good thing to the adults and children we met. I believe each person must learn for themselves what they believe, and not blindly accept it. Nor should they learn the Bible and run with it, judging and condemning others. We're all in the same boat - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But thanks to Jesus, it doesn't matter. Jesus did not hate or persecute people for their faults when He walked this Earth, but He will come to judge mankind. That is only one of His roles. Jesus did everything that God asked of Him, even unto death, but just because God made consequences for sin doesn't mean He's a macho, wrathful God. Here are other adjectives: The way, the truth, and the life; prince of peace; redeemer; teacher' good shepherd; immanuel (God with us); living water; bread of life; faithful and true witness, and the list goes on. Just because things were different in the Old Testament (before Jesus) doesn't make the Bible outdated, or make God an angry, disapproving punk of a Father. I'm sure lots of us hated our parents when they punished us as kids, but we probably deserved it at the time, and it was best for us to learn a lesson. God is the same way - He tells us of consequences for sin, and those consequences might make Him look mean to us, but in the end it's best for us. It can be as simple as that. And though homosexuality has consequences, it's not the job of a Christian to go around doomsaying or judging gays. It is a Christian's job to know right and wrong, and to encourage others to "do the right thing", tell them why it's the right thing, and provide a better alternative to sin for those who are poor, drugged out, depressed, down and out, and hurting.

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 26, 2006....

  <<> my book reads "[quote] I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the LORD do all these. [/quote]" Where in this passage do [b]you[/b] read that He <>?? And if the God of the Old Testament is such a "racist", then why, may I ask, would the majority of the people that He's punished <> be the very people whom you would claim is the "race" that He favors? It is because they commited "an abomination" in God's eyes, but as the brother who started this blog looking for answers put so eloquently earlier, "God is as much a loving Heavenly Father as He is a strict judge." I don't remember anyone answering your request that <>... maybe nobody was looking for the list from the likes of a radical anti-Christian like yourself. If you would like to discuss New Testament Textual Criticism, I'd be glad to challange you in another blog, though I usually don't like to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent! Now if you can get down from your soapbox, maybe the brother can get some answers! Hey twist! I don't think that anyone can say definitively whether the gays are born that way or not, but I'm inclined to think not. You can be born black or brown or yellow or red or white, rich or poor, but I think sexual persuasion is a choice. I also agree that it is no worse a sin than any other sexual sin... I've been a fornicator on many occasions, so I would not want to "cast the first stone". But I can't help but think that it would be "an abomination" in God's eyes to allow active, self-confessed homos into the ministry of His flock, just as it would be an adulterer!! Good luck, brother, in your search for the answer to that one...

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 26, 2006....

  <<> my book reads "[quote] I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the LORD do all these. [/quote]" Where in this passage do [b]you[/b] read that He <>?? And if the God of the Old Testament is such a "racist", then why, may I ask, would the majority of the people that He's punished <> be the very people whom you would claim is the "race" that He favors? It is because they commited "an abomination" in God's eyes, but as the brother who started this blog looking for answers put so eloquently earlier, "God is as much a loving Heavenly Father as He is a strict judge." I don't remember anyone answering your request that <>... maybe nobody was looking for the list from the likes of a radical anti-Christian like yourself. If you would like to discuss New Testament Textual Criticism, I'd be glad to challange you in another blog, though I usually don't like to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent! Now if you can get down from your soapbox, maybe the brother can get some answers! Hey twist! I don't think that anyone can say definitively whether the gays are born that way or not, but I'm inclined to think not. You can be born black or brown or yellow or red or white, rich or poor, but I think sexual persuasion is a choice. I also agree that it is no worse a sin than any other sexual sin... I've been a fornicator on many occasions, so I would not want to "cast the first stone". But I can't help but think that it would be "an abomination" in God's eyes to allow active, self-confessed homos into the ministry of His flock, just as it would be an adulterer!! Good luck, brother, in your search for the answer to that one...

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 26, 2006....

  This should have been posted first! <<>

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 26, 2006....

  s eyes to allow active, self-confessed homos into the ministry of His flock, just as it would be an adulterer!! Good luck, brother, in your search for the answer to that one...

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 26, 2006....

  <<> my book reads "[quote] I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the LORD do all these. [/quote]" Where in this passage do [b]you[/b] read that He <>?? And if the God of the Old Testament is such a "racist", then why, may I ask, would the majority of the people that He's punished <> be the very people whom you would claim is the "race" that He favors? It is because they commited "an abomination" in God's eyes, but as the brother who started this blog looking for answers put so eloquently earlier, "God is as much a loving Heavenly Father as He is a strict judge." I don't remember anyone answering your request that <>... maybe nobody was looking for the list from the likes of a radical anti-Christian like yourself. If you would like to discuss New Testament Textual Criticism, I'd be glad to challange you in another blog, though I usually don't like to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent! Now if you can get down from your soapbox, maybe the brother can get some answers! Hey twist! I don't think that anyone can say definitively whether the gays are born that way or not, but I'm inclined to think not. You can be born black or brown or yellow or red or white, rich or poor, but I think sexual persuasion is a choice. I also agree that it is no worse a sin than any other sexual sin... I've been a fornicator on many occasions, so I would not want to "cast the first stone". But I can't help but think that it would be "an abomination" in God's eyes to allow active, self-confessed homos into the ministry of His flock, just as it would be an adulterer!! Good luck, brother, in your search for the answer to that one...

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 26, 2006....

  "What is so difficult about understanding that THE BIBLE doesn't rule the way people behave. Unless, of course, you CHOOSE to believe in the Bible." Well, sir, one look around this once blessed nation will certainly show that what you say about the Bible not ruling the way that people behave to be true... once upon a time this wasn't the case, when Providence, as I think the founding father's refered to the higher power of their understanding, was looked upon with reverence and respect. What you know about the Bible most certainly [b][i]is [/i][/b]lacking... in understanding that ALL of the Word must be understood IN CONTEXT. Several of your quotes aren't even factual, per esempio (for example)... in my New King James Version the passage of 2Chr36:9 reads, "[quote] Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king...[/quote]" and as to your comment about how God "created evil (Is. 45:7)", my book reads "[quote] I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the LORD do all these. [/quote]" Where in this passage do [b]you[/b] read that He "created evil"?? And if the God of the Old Testament is such a "racist", then why, may I ask, would the majority of the people that He's punished "with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ez. 5:10)." be the very people whom you would claim is the "race" that He favors? It is because they commited "an abomination" in God's eyes, but as the brother who started this blog looking for answers put so eloquently earlier, "God is as much a loving Heavenly Father as He is a strict judge." I don't remember anyone answering your request that "If you would like, I will provide you a list of things the Bible tells people to do."... maybe nobody was looking for such a list from the likes of a radical anti-Christian like yourself. If you would like to discuss New Testament Textual Criticism, I'd be glad to challange you in another blog, though I usually don't like to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent! Now if you can get down from your soapbox, maybe the brother can get some answers! Hey twist! I don't think that anyone can say definitively whether the gays are born that way or not, but I'm inclined to think not. You can be born black or brown or yellow or red or white, rich or poor, but I think sexual persuasion is a choice. I also agree that it is no worse a sin than any other sexual sin... I've been a fornicator on many occasions, so I would not want to "cast the first stone". But I can't help but think that it would be "an abomination" in God's eyes to allow active, self-confessed homos into the ministry of His flock, just as it would be an adulterer!! Good luck, brother, in your search for the answer to that one...

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jun 26, 2006....

  >>... maybe nobody was looking for the list from the likes of a radical anti-Christian like yourself.<< Anti-Christian? Me? Nooooooooo. If I were Anti-Christian, why I'd object to them having sex. Or I'd come up with a religious document stating they were sinning. I'd object to them being married. You know, I'd just claim my dislike for their sexual practices was religiously based. I'd make sure the document that was backing up this certainty of a life in hell for them was fraught will inaccuracy, inconsistency, and tarnished morality. That's what I would do if I was Anti-Christian. Thanks, however, for the repeated double post and non-sequiturs. They said more than your writing ever could. Enjoy your zealotry.

• kelly said on Jun 26, 2006....

  OK, a little back on target, you may find this article interesting. This study finds that the number of older brothers a man has is an indicator for likelihood of homosexual orientation, and it happens in the womb. I did not read the whole article closely but they do mention they've ruled out the environmental factors. It is definitely biological. And of course, having a lot of older brothers does not necessarily mean that a man will be gay for sure. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2244488,00.html

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 26, 2006....

  To Gumpy, "If I were Anti-Christian, why I'd object to them having sex. Or I'd come up with a religious document stating they were sinning. I'd object to them being married. You know, I'd just claim my dislike for their sexual practices was religiously based. I'd make sure the document that was backing up this certainty of a life in hell for them was fraught [b]will[/b]? inaccuracy, inconsistency, and tarnished morality." I rest my case... maybe you're not rabid, but definitely anti - Christian, as is much of our media today, so I don't fault you for it... as a matter of fact I've prayed for you. Hope that doesn't ruffle your feathers too much, sir! I was only attempting to get this vine back on track, and away from your tirade against what the originator of this vine as well as several million other believers hold dear... the Holy Bible. I see that you aren't interesting in taking me up on my offer to debate New Testament Texual Criticism in another blog... somehow I'm not suprised! Perhaps, as I stated earlier, you aren't armed! As to the repeated double post and non-sequiturs, I am not only new to blogging, but unaware that this site would erase everything that is placed between angled brackets <>... so, put that in your pipe and smoke it, SuperGenius! Veramente in Lui, (Sincerely in Him,) Gregg

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jun 27, 2006....

  >>As to the repeated double post and non-sequiturs, I am not only new to blogging, but unaware that this site would erase everything that is placed between angled brackets <>... so, put that in your pipe and smoke it, SuperGenius!<< I see. So your infamiliarity with blogging prevented you from seeing that your posts, over and over again, were reappearing ad nauseum? Something that is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer? Wow. It only took you four times. You have demonstrated in action just how bright the light is shining in your brainbox. I will let you go back to defining other people (calling them anti-christian) and interpreting the bible for the entire world, especially those that don't believe in the bible. Make sure and watch the 700 Club today! Maybe Pat Robertson will call for the death of some world leader!

• RobsStuff said on Jun 27, 2006....

  Thanks Twist, When I was much younger I went to a an evengelical church where a prophet was preaching. During the service he called on the person dealing with a specific circumstance to come and see him after the service. He prophasised that I would be a "man of God". Although I have not been able to find a place in the Christian church I have strived to be a loving, compassionate and generous human being. Lifes lessons have been difficult and yet in my heart I know that a loving God sends not only the trials but the strength to deal with them. I find it hard to accept that the Church singles out gay people for its wrath when Christ never identified them as deserving of attack. The Church and hence the State have been selective in its use of Scripture as the foundations of our laws. When you talk to your sons I would ask only this. Teach them that irestpective of wether gays are born or made they are creations of God and deserving of our love. Teach them that from a Christian perspective there lifestyles constitute a sin. But good men are called to love the sinner and hate the sin. As fellow members of the human race they should be accorded dignity and valued for their hummanity. Ciao, Rob

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 27, 2006....

  Great input Rob... I think it sounds like something that Christ would want to say to the fellowship of believers called the Christian church. You are truly a man in touch with the reality of the ongoing "debate" that may yet split the "church" once again, and yours is the view point that should be taken by all! To Gumpy, "I see. So your infamiliarity with blogging prevented you from seeing that your posts, over and over again, were reappearing ad nauseum? Something that is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer? Wow. It only took you four times. You have demonstrated in action just how bright the light is shining in your brainbox." Insults from a dead man... now that's an interesting dilemma! When over half of your reply is your criticism of my mistake, I hardly find the need to explain or defend myself any farther. As to my "defining other people (calling them anti-christian)", hey, just calling a spade a spade, eh? If the shoe fits... - Gregg P.S. You'll find the proper [i]venue[/i] for this "dialog" to continue if you look at this site under [b]religion][/b]. Or search for Authenticy. There, I've thrown down the gauntlet! Let's leave this vine to it's intended purpose.

• lidstrom82 said on Jun 27, 2006....

  At heart, this blog is about a man teaching his son the right thing about homosexuality. Gumpy, you've said many things about the accuracy of the Bible. It made me research and look around for an answer - is the Bible reliable? I've found that it is. However, the authors have made approximations concerning number of people, ages of rulers, and so on. Whether the Bible says somewhere that Jehoachim was 8 and elsewhere that he's 18 is definitely a difference, but taking that to mean that the whole Bible is suspect is taking it a bit far. For instance, many people disagree as to exactly how many people died in the battle of Gettysburg. That doesn't mean the battle didn't happen, however, whether someone says 40,000 died or another guy says 60,000 died. If the apostle Paul cites earlier events in Scripture and says that 23,000 died in a day, and another place in Scripture says 24,000 died in the same instance, that doesn't disprove the Bible. That's like saying you lied by telling your friends you bought a house for $250,000 when you actually paid $249,533. Is it technically perfect in all historical, grammatical, or scientific matters? No - the authors or the scholars throughout history might have claimed differently about numbers, or the exact date of a certain event. But that's not what the Bible is actually about. It transforms lives by offering God's Word to those who realize they need God's Son, Jesus Christ, as savior. It might appear that the Bible doesn't apply to anyone who isn't Christian, but Jesus died for all people, not just the people who believed in Him at the time. This goes to say that everyone is sinful and everyone needs the Savior. Homosexuality is a great example of this. Their main sin is going against God's intention of heterosexual marriage. They need Jesus just as much as a murderer, a liar, a criminal, or a normal "good" person. Plus, Jesus is the one who judges us. It's not a Christian's job, but many of us do it anyways. We overstep our bounds by getting angry and trying to put nonchristians in their place, but there's only so much we can do. Gregg, arguing with Gumpy is fruitless. Debating Scriptural authenticity won't argue Gumpy into understanding Christianity. And Gumpy, having Gregg and you quote each other's words back and forth and having a charged discussion that tells twist nothing he needs to hear...you gotta ask yourselves - are you here to help twist with advice, or do you like to hear yourselves talk? It's not an insult, it's an honest question. I agree with RobsStuff. No matter what twist, your son will benefit greatly from loving a gay person just like any other person, because they're no different. At the same time, the Bible does instruct that homosexuality is against God, a sexual sin, an abomination, and unnatural (the rectum can literally tear for a receiving male, and lesbian women may have to resort to artificial sex toys or methods of pleasure that won't match the possible pleasure of heterosexual intercourse (a vibrator can actually cause more stimulation than anything else, but because of this it might ruin the experience of any other type of pleasure - an addiction to it, in other words). It's not just that homosexuality is against God. It is this way because homosexuality damages the body, perverts sexual pleasure, and alienates the gay person from mainstream society. At the same time, many non-gays have been intolerant and hateful - many of them Christians. That is not truly what God intends. So twist, the Bible is the most effective tool for living. Look up verses dealing with homosexuality in Scripture, knowing that it will reveal to you two things: what God considers sin, and how Jesus treated sinners around Him.

• stark said on Jun 27, 2006....

  "It's not just that homosexuality is against God. It is this way because homosexuality damages the body, perverts sexual pleasure, and alienates the gay person from mainstream society" It doesn't have to damage the body. Your making some assumptions, but that's beside the point. I only perverts sexual pleasure if you define it as a perversion. I don't see it as a perversion myself. It's only alienating because of peoples bigotry. I think it's safe to assume that most gay people are born that way. Why would God create something that "he" dissaproves of? These are the sorts of things that make me immediately skeptical of christianity. I think you should love your son and be happy that you have a health son and a good relationship with him. Everything else seems superficial.

• twist said on Jun 27, 2006....

  wow, I go out of town for a couple of days, and on my return I find 32 comments, when last I left off at 14 comments. I hope you have all had a lot of fun arguing about what the Bible says or doesn't say. Seriously, if any of this has caused anyone to think about God, the meaning of life on earth and whether there will be an eternity and where you will spend it, it has all been worth it. God is a rewarder of them, who diligently seek Him. To lidstrom82: Thank you, brother, you are a valiant warrior To GumpyJumptooth: I don't know, if there is any hope for you, but with God all things are possible. To: GreggThePilgrim: Keep at it, for God wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, so you have embarked on a worth journey To kelly: Thank you for the website, I will certainly read it, as soon as I have a few minutes To Rob: Thank you for your comments. As I said before, you are amazing, and don't give up on that prophecy. I have seen many instances where prophecies came to pass after many years. God is not in a hurry, and I would not be surprised, either, if He were to heal you completely. And I think I am on safe ground, when I tell you that He wants so badly to use you. The experiences you had in various churches were not for naught. Rob, you have a very beautiful spirit. And you are absolutely correct. God hates sin (all sin - and homosexuality is not any worse than lying, stealing, cheating and murder or any other sin), but He loves the sinner, so much so, that He gave His most precious possession - His Son - so that all who choose, would have a chance for eternal life, irrespective of their own personal shortcomings. By the way, I don't know, which "church" you are referring to. If I were in a church, where people (irrespective of who they are) were treated with anything but the love of God, I would leave immediately and find another church. Remember, churches are made up of people, and all people are sinners and come short of the Glory of God. I believe this last comment may answer some of stark's doubts. As a general comment let me say that I have used my son's question to understand the nature of God better, and I believe that I may have come a little closer, i. e. how can God condemn someone, who is born with a defect that causes him to sin, or can He? This is probably a quest that will not end in this life, but I do believe that it is not only worthwile, but very exciting.

• GreggThePilgrim said on Jun 27, 2006....

  To lidstrom82, "Gregg, arguing with Gumpy is fruitless. Debating Scriptural authenticity won't argue Gumpy into understanding Christianity. And Gumpy, having Gregg and you quote each other's words back and forth and having a charged discussion that tells twist nothing he needs to hear...you gotta ask yourselves - are you here to help twist with advice, or do you like to hear yourselves talk? It's not an insult, it's an honest question." Of coarse I realized that debating scripture with Gumpy was fruitless... so since our 1st exchange I've tried on several occasions to politely ask him to take our debate somewhere else! May I quote myself? From my 1st comments... "If you would like to discuss New Testament Textual Criticism, I'd be glad to challange you in another blog, though I usually don't like to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!" and then "Now if you can get down from your soapbox, maybe the brother can get some answers!". Then from my 2nd posting, "I was only attempting to get this vine back on track, and away from your tirade against what the originator of this vine as well as several million other believers hold dear... the Holy Bible. I see that you aren't interesting in taking me up on my offer to debate New Testament Texual Criticism in another blog... somehow I'm not suprised! Perhaps, as I stated earlier, you aren't armed! Now, I know that these were harsh, but he seemed to have it coming! Finally, from my last posting, "P.S. You'll find the proper venue for this "dialog" to continue if you look at this site under religion]. Or search for Authenticy. There, I've thrown down the gauntlet! Let's leave this vine to it's intended purpose." So, you see, I [b]was[/b] [i]trying to end[/i] the "charged discussion" and take it elsewhere, so as to let twist get the info that he was seeking without undue diversion. And while I may like to hear myself talk sometimes, I realise that this wasn't the venue to do that, so I started my own blog... which, by the way, you are welcomed to visit, as I think that I've visited one of yours, or read some of your comments on someone elses and I like your style and Christ-like demeanor. To twist, "To: GreggThePilgrim: Keep at it, for God wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, so you have embarked on a worth journey" Thank you... my journey started over 30 years ago when, at the age of 19, I joined the US Air Farce in an attempt to serve my country... but not go to Viet Nam. I guess I started seeking the truth long before that... but it has definately been worth while. I have a 10 year old son who'll likely be asking similar questions in the not too distant future, so I've enjoyed this exchange of ideas! - Gregg

• lidstrom82 said on Jun 28, 2006....

  This blog has been pretty rewarding. Lots of good ideas and things said. I appreciate your effort and your willingness to let the truth be told, Gregg. Thanks for clarifying - I'll check out your blog next! Hey twist, I'm glad this whole discussion has brought you a better understanding of God - I think it will continue. As for your question about how God could create something He disapproves of, I think that the verse in Scripture that talks about the sins of the father being carried on is a part of sin. There are consequences to sin, and some, unfortunately, carry on to our children. Excessive smoking and drinking could cause higher risk of cancer, or brain damage, for example, in newborns. The Bible condones drinking wine but not excessively; in the same way, smoking occasionally may not cause too much harm. But many harmless things in excess do harm the body and are thus sinful. Here's a thought: what if a sin of the father has a consequence that predisposes his child toward sexuality? Christians who raise their children in the church are equipping them to serve God with their lives, and God does bless His people. Those who reject God are left open to the consequences of their sin, and a parent who willingly allows a child to grow up to act on homosexual tendencies will (knowingly or not) subject their kids to much intolerance and ridicule. Stark, I read your post, and what you said made some sense. let me challenge you on some points. Homosexual behavior damages the body - I learned that in sex ed, not from Christian teachings. Be careful of assumptions yourself. Second, your definition of perversion is decided from person to person. In your eyes, it's not a perversion. You can choose to believe that, I won't judge you for that. What I believe is that we can't control other people's thoughts or behaviors, but if the question is raised about homosexuality (which it has), I'm going to give the Biblical perspective because that's what I believe. God does not approve of it. But He loves a homosexual as much as any devout Christian. Just like a loving father, although he might hate the choices of the child, he will love the child regardless. That's how God works, and judgment isn't for the rest of His children to put on sinful people. "It's only alienating because of people's bigotry" - Sadly, many Christians take the Bible and use it against homosexuals, or murderers, or anyone else who is clearly sinning. They are hating the sinful person, and in the process are sinning themselves. However, just because both sides are in the wrong doesn't make God's position irrelevant - in fact, we need Him as a moral compass to tell what's right or wrong. In other words, you might think what is perversion depends on who you ask, but that line of moral relativism, while popular, is lawlessness. If one took moral relativism to its extreme, and didn't subscribe to any higher authority than their own, it's lawlessness. Think about it a bit. While many people have gay tendencies since they could remember, that doesn't mean they're a slave to their emotions or feelings. None of us are. God approves of His created people, but does NOT approve of sinful behavior. Most people who openly sin today don't realize that if not for Jesus Christ, they would have no hope for when they hit the bottom. Besides, whether a person is gay from birth is irrelevant. They have free will to choose. It might seem an unfair fight to go along with "the norm" when you're inclined/forced to go the other way, but can't we say that of any physical/mental ailment? For example, no one asks for sickness they've had since birth, but God loves them no less. It's the same with gay tendencies. However, most people forget that God has the power to heal us of anything - homosexuality or cancer, you name it. In short Stark, if you are skeptical of Christianity, and it boils down to God appearing as disapproving or stuff the Bible says that you don't agree with, that's totally fine. At heart, our messages are the same to twist - encouraging Twist to love his son and have a good relationship with him.

• hunter_boyce_chandler said on Jun 28, 2006....

  Personally I believe that everyone is entitled to thier own obsessions. whether they be sexual, fundamentalist muslim and or jihadist Bible-Nazi.

• lidstrom82 said on Jun 28, 2006....

  Sure hunter, everyone's got some obsessions. The paradox though, is that with many people striving to have true freedom, they end up being slaves to the behavior that offers freedom. An honest question for dialog: moral relativism basically says that everyone's entitled to believe what they want and no one can tell them any different. Free thought is very important, but so is accountability. Isn't moral relativism just an intellectual form of rebellion from moral high ground? Many want to claim freedom by being able to do what they want, when they want it. The sad thing is, many get those "freedoms" and soon their addictions, behaviors, and little accountability from others ends up enslaving them anyways. The important thing is not to ask for enough rope to hang oneself with, when it comes to wanting free choice to do something that's potentially destructive.

• hotaka said on Jun 29, 2006....

  This has been an extremely interesting discussion about the validity of the Bible and how Christianity regards homosexuality. I think the original question was about whether homosexuals are born that way or they chose to be gay. I have a cousin who is gay, a friend who is gay, and I have seen two friends (of a friend) go through the turning point in their lives where they realized that they were fooling themselves by trying to be straight and that their true sexual preference was the same sex. These people didn't chose to "be" gay. They were that way. What they chose was to recognize how they were and accept that that was a part of who they were. It was a very hard time for both of them. One man was about 19 when he realized which way his natural desires went and he knew his father abhored gays. He also worried how his friends might think of him. I remember him coming over and sitting down very seriously telling us he had something important to say. We loved him for who he was so for us we could only feel happy that he had discovered this about himself. It was something that set him free from the frustrations of trying to be straight and denying his natural programming, so to speak. But he was very concerned that he would lose our respect. I think all of his friends accepted him but he became estranged from his father. My friend feared being chased out of the family home and called nasty names, or possibly even beaten by his father. The other friend was a woman who had dated the same guy for five years before a certain event made her realize that she was actually attracted to women. She broke up with her boyfriend and quietly slipped out of our lives, changing her address and phone number. We didn't hear much after a year and finally she just disappeared from our lives all together. It seems to me that the choices are not about which sex to feel attracted to but rather how to deal with discovering that you are homosexual. "Coming out" seems to be the point in your life when you realize how many people truly love you for who you are. Many relationships, including familial ones, are broken. Chosing to come out and go through those heartbreaking times can lead to more suffering than many of us experience. Who would want to chose that way if they didn't have to?

• twist said on Jun 29, 2006....

  lidstrom, you are a philosopher, but I think you are correct in your assessment of people who in their quest for freedom wind up as slaves of some unhealthy behavior patterns. About your comment: how God could create something he disapproves of.... I don't think, that is what happened, as a matter of fact, I do believe that that is at the heart of the problem. When God made man, He looked around and said: This is very good. Everything else He made was just good, but man was apparently very good in God's eyes, so how did this someone who originally was very good get involved in an activity that God calls an abomination? Obviously what happened was "the fall of man". Does that mean that homosexuality is on the same level with the other defects that crept into the human nature, i. e. is the homosexual act on a par with lying, stealing etc? Hotaka's comments shed some interesting light on this. When I read this, I found myself feeling sorry for the ones he describes as getting in touch with their homosexuality, because of the rejection they had to endure. If one were to replace the word homosexual with lyer or thief, would our reaction be the same? I guess in the case of Hotaka's friend, if he had told his father that he was a thief, the reaction could not have been any worse. Why have homosexuals always been rejected? Is it a religious thing, or cultural? All in all, this is some interesting stuff to meditate on, and I certainly appreciate all your good comments.

• lidstrom82 said on Jun 29, 2006....

  Hotaka, you always have good input on the topic no matter what it is. I think you really touched upon the love and respect that people need when they struggle with behavior that brings alienation and persecution. Twist, I think that homosexuals have been rejected mainly on religious terms. Call it Christian Extremism, or ultraconservative, maybe, but the fall of man does affect us all, you're right. It also affects Christians, and makes us look very hypocritical. In the end, because we all sin, we're all hypocrites in some way or another. That's why we need God's grace that Jesus brought us. It's that same grace that homosexuals need from people around them. God disapproves of homosexuality, but loves those who practice it. "Love the sinner, hate the sin." That's all it really comes down to. Keep in mind too that although ultraconservative Christianity has caused hostility from nonchristians, Christianity itself is the solution to all the sin and perversion and destruction. And that there are just as many Christians who love sinners as there are Christians who hate gays. The Christian church should remember that members of their own are being imprisoned, tortured, or murdered overseas for spreading the Gospel of Jesus. They know the Truth and hold to it even unto death. There have been many persecuted Christians, and there always will be. In this way, Christians must remember not to do the same to sinners. Also, those hostile or skeptical of God and Jesus because of their human followers doing dumb things...can also remember that Christians also suffer from persecution from the world in different ways.

• twist said on Jun 29, 2006....

  lidstrom, you are absolutely correct. When I wrote the last comment I was thinking about the fact that Christians should be familiar with rejection, because that is what Jesus predicted for them. Therefore they should be sensitive to other people who suffer rejection or persecution. I don't know, what you consider an ultraconservative Christian. I have always considered myself conservative, but I am also aware of Jesus' comment that if you don't forgive others their trespasses, yours cannot be forgiven either, besides we are not supposed to judge anyone, lest we be judged, and since all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, it sounds like we are sitting in a glass house and can't afford to throw stones. Keep it up - you are on the right track

• sociologically_speaking said on Jun 29, 2006....

  i apologize for being so hypercritical and bitchy. seriously, really.

• sociologically_speaking said on Jun 30, 2006....

  There are strict and loose interpretations of the Bible; and this just means that some people take the word of the Bible literally, and other people feel that God gave us the Bible to use as a guideline, so we can interpret it ourselves. That's one reason there are so many different sects of Christianity. Even within one faith, there are still many individual interpretations of that faith. This was an interesting dialogue to read, SoulCasters. It was intense for a while there!

• twist said on Jun 30, 2006....

  apologies accepted, sociologically, I am very pleased that in the end everything was civilized, and I truly hope that we all learned something. I certainly did, and with God's help I expect to learn a lot more - so, God bless you all, and keep it up

• mikey said on Jul 01, 2006....

  From the son with the famous question….. Wow,,,, Quite the responses….. We were sitting around dinner one evening when in conversation homosexuality came up. Not in a cruel or demeaning way but it simply came up. I believe that many people cast judgment on different situations without putting much thought into it. So I posed the question. Are homosexuals born homosexual or do they become homosexual by choice? I was not really asking the question because I expected an answer, but rather hopped for a philosophical debate. My personal belief is really quite simple. It is no affair of mine what someone else does, providing it does not involve or affect me. Without question, God did not put me on this earth to judge anyone, but rather to do good. I can see by some of the previous discussions that some of you took great offense to the question. I apologize to you for any ill feelings and assure you that the question was not meant to be disrespectful in anyway. On the contrary. I posed the question in hopes of challenging heterosexual people to acknowledge the possibility that homosexuality may not be a choice. I followed up the question by pointing out that if in fact people are born homosexual, many heterosexuals are going to feel really bad about their thoughts and actions when they discover this in the after life. This debate quickly turned into a religious debate which was not the intent. However, in regards to religion the question is this. What do you believe in your heart? Keep in mind, you need to only convince yourself. Some of the previous remarks led me to ask the question “who is this author trying to convince, me or him”. When your faith is full of conviction, you need not worry about what others think. We will all need to atone for our actions on earth when we die. “Or maybe we won’t”. But assuming that we do, we all need to make certain that we are at peace with how we are living our life on earth because it may end before we can change it.

• anonymous said on Jul 02, 2006....

  mikey, Your post has been the only one that makes any sense for several days. Thank you. There have been recent reports on the "Fox Network" about the "CAUSES" of homosexuality. It seems that when a woman gives birth to a son she develops antibodies that make any subsequent son gay. Whatever.

• hunter_boyce_chandler said on Jul 02, 2006....

  Thanks anon, I guess that means all of the previous posts from the hate mongering christians are kind of silly.

• silverwhisper said on Jul 13, 2006....

  twist: i just found this entry--i started after the furor died down. there is no conclusive evidence as to what makes a person gay. some people will argue it's nature; others, nurture. in the end, the only answer you can give your son (and i'm curious to know what you did tell him) is "even the best scientists don't know". ed

• twist said on Jul 13, 2006....

  ed, thanks for your input, you may be right, but I don't know. I do know several people who used to be gay, and who are now straight, whatever that means. To satisfy your curiosity about the answer to my son, he is 35, very bright, so we discuss all kinds of things as two equals, and I guess we reached the conclusion that we just don't know.

• silverwhisper said on Jul 14, 2006....

  i'm curious about those folks you know who once were, as i'm fuzzy on what that means, too. ed

• twist said on Jul 14, 2006....

  as far as I know, they have all given up the gay lifestyle as a result of a conversion experience, and as I said, what that means in terms of their inner workings, I don't know, and it is not my job to judge that or them. If I understand the Bible correctly, it is not homosexual desires that God disapproves of, but homosexual acts. I believe, there is a group out there called ex-gays for Christ or something like that. You may find them on Google, if you are interested. - Good luck

• silverwhisper said on Jul 14, 2006....

  i was afraid you might be referring to so-called conversion therapy. the less said of my opinion, the better. :> ed

• twist said on Jul 15, 2006....

  your opinion, of course, is yours. Nonetheless the life stories that come up, when you google "ex gays for Christ" is quite amazing. I did it after my last post, just to see, what was there. It is impossible to read all of them, but what I saw in a few minutes amazed me, particularly one by a Joe Dallas. I tried to find it again, but couldn't. Anyhow, your choice.

• silverwhisper said on Jul 15, 2006....

  twist: suffice it to say that this is hardly a matter on which my knowledge is superficial. :> ed

• SOLDIERCIPSWIFE said on Jul 17, 2006....

  Homosexuality is on a long list of many things that are seen as sins and acts that we are not to commit. I often wonder myself if this behaviour could be that people are simply born attracted to the same sex or circumstances that life has brought upon them. Perhaps abuse or molestation. I know that we are to treat our bodies like temples and yet we overeat, do drugs, smoke, are alcoholics, and the list goes on...Yet more and more it seems like we want to put the list of sins in some kind of order that puts some sins in a category that makes them seem " Worse" than others. I am a sinner..Lord knows I am everyday. I try real hard not to be..but I am a TRUE HUMAN :) I ask for forgiveness, and most of all...Not judge others...God gets to do that..We are suppose to be here to love and help mankind. Maybe that would help Twist...I know my daddy always told me that you just never know what shoes that person has had to walk in to make them who they are...Just love and pray for them.... GOod Night and God bless

• sermoa said on Jul 26, 2006....

  Hi Twist, Just to add another perspective, i happen to be bisexual, and i can't explain why this is. I actually find it hard to believe that people find themselves attracted only to one gender, be they straight or gay. Personally, i'm attracted to cute people, and girls and boys can be equally cute, as far as i see! I'm also naturally monogamous - i love my partner and it makes perfect sense for me to want to be committed to the same person for the rest of my life. I understand that some people are naturally polyamorous - and some successfully form open relationships based on trust and honesty between all partners. Whilst i can't relate to this personally, i don't dismiss it because i understand that everybody's different. I am also a Christian, and have been for most of my life. I was very scared when i began to discover my bisexuality, having been brought up to believe that God wanted me to be straight. But what i've learnt is that God loves me just as i am, it's not something i have any control over, it's just one aspect of who i am. I still experience God's love and see God's answers to my prayers, so i figure i can't be that much of an abomination to God. I think sexuality is probably natural - possibly formed at birth or before. I also think that certain environments can encourage or discourage the natural sexual orientation, but not change it. Ask any straight person whether they could be persuaded to be gay ...! People are often persuaded to be straight, as it is somewhat expected by society or religion, but i think this is a dangerous thing. A natural tendency that is suppressed can lead to anger, maybe at parents, teachers, colleagues, friends, or even God. I hope that in the future it will be understood that it's okay to be different, that people may fall in love with people, regardless of gender, that it will hardly even be considered. I believe this will be a far healthier, better functioning society. Oh dear - i've turned my comment into a soapbox! I do apologise!!

• twist said on Jul 30, 2006....

  Thank you for your comment, sermoa. What can I say? You may be right, although that is not how I understand the Bible. Nonetheless, I am not called to judge anyone, but only to point them to Christ. Everything else is between them and Him. May God give you wisdom.

• anonymous said on Aug 23, 2006....

  spam removed

• zivja said on Oct 10, 2006....

  Hi there, surely even you must understand that we are born the way we are, how can we otherwise explain that homosexual tendencies are also common in animals, such as dogs and monkeys for example. There is even a "gay zoo" in Holland, where gay animals can live without being treated differently from their other animals.
  
  So clearly it is something mother nature has intented as an option to sexuality as pure recreational purposes. Look at ancient Greece, where men used to have sex in a normal society, and only have sex with women to have children. It was naturally back than, so i'm sure it is natural nowadays as well. The only problem that has been created is by the church and other religions such as islam and judaism that have banned the homosexuality, though the church has clearly proven over and over again that it doesnt follow its own teachings... how can anyone trust them after they preach not to have homosexual acts, and their own representatives are abusing young children, discusting...
  
  im a gay guy, and i am proud of being gay, as i am proud of being an ex dancer, and proud of being swedish, and proud of being intelligent. we are, or should be proud beings of whatever sexuality or other inclination we have, as long as it is not harming other beings i believe..
  

• fire_al said on Oct 28, 2006....

  being gay my self, i can say its something innate or something you don't choose to be.as having the gay tendencies, i had it since i had my first memory as a child. its not easy growing up as such because of so much condemnation around you from people with biased points of view. but being able to accept your identity and have your family accept who you are and what you are makes you a better person. and i suggest being parents be careful in talking about religion's point of view about homosexuality this could do so much damage to your child if not dealed in an open minded way.
  For Twist, i have some detailed advice for parents like you in my blog.
  

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