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It was a fine morning. Sue's just given birth to a lovely baby girl. She's born imperfect but she meant the world to Sue with that cute angelic face of hers. Sue named her Angel, just what she was for Sue.

Angel was diagnosed with Epidermolysis Bullosa, a rare genetic disease characterized by the presence of extremely fragile skin and recurrent blister formation, resulting from minor mechanical friction or trauma.

The doctors said that she might not live to see her 1st birthday and to save emotional pain and financial burden, it would be kinder to let her die.

Do you think so?

Britain's Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecology brings the subject of active euthanasia for the sickest newborns to be debated by society.

They claim that it's for the overall good of families, sparing parents the emotional burden and financial hardship.

The college said: "We would like the working party to think more radically about non-resuscitation, withdrawal of treatment decisions... and active euthanasia, as they are ways of widening the management options available to the sickest of newborns."

The suggestion brings mixed views.

John Wyatt, professor of neonatal paediatrics at University College Hospital London, said: "Intentional killing is not part of medical care. The majority of doctors and health care professionals believe that once you introduce the possibility of intentional killing into medical practice you change the fundamental nature of medicine."

While John Harris, professor of bioethics at the University of Manchester, said it was not a question of whether or not these decisions were taken - as they already were through withdrawing treatment - but how to take them in the most humane way.

Is there any humane way of taking a life? Even if you inject a baby to "sleep" and watch the life goes out of their eyes, is that considered humane? Granted, the baby is sick. Would you let men decide or let nature decide?

Life is a gift and miracles can happen. No one should have the power to take someone's life, even doctors. What you can't give, you don't take away. What makes you think that the baby wouldn't want to live or that when she's all grown up she's not going to be happy? It's not for you to decide. Are those abnormal and disabled babies so unworthy of life that we won't even give them the chance to live?

As it turns out, Angel's going to be 10 this November. She lives happily with a loving family that loves her unconditionally. Her parents gave her a chance to live and never regretted a day ever since.

So dear Soulcasters, what do you think about euthanasia on sick/disabled babies? Do you condone it or condemn it?



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Comments

  • moonriver said on Nov 06, 2006....
    a society that intentionally kills sick or disabled babies should not have a place in the 21st century, anywhere in this world. if the issue is emotional pain and financial hardship, then by god, institutions like the state, churches, corporations, should intervene and take over when parents and kin could no longer bear it.
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 06, 2006....
    In my opinion it should come down to the choice of the parents.  The doctors alone shouldn't be able to make this decision on their own but if a child has very little chance of survival I don't have any problem with putting them out of their misery.
     
    Nature already decided this situation.  Its a matter of wether we are going to let men make this decision easier.  Without man and their medicine the child wouldn't live long at all.  Cruel would be to drag out this life longer than need be.  If the doctors and the loved ones agree by all means go for it.
     
    A society cruel enough to force an ailing individual to live has no place in this world.  If the issue is money then the state and corporations "can" intervene but under no circumstances should they be forced to do so.  Nor should the hospitals be forced to work for free.  If a church wants to help so be it.
  • moonriver said on Nov 06, 2006....
    a baby has no choice. society should give him that choice. it isn't a choice for the doctors to make. if he gets to grow up, then he can kill himself for all i care. if you catch pneumonia tomorrow, then "nature has already decided this situation," and without medical intervention you probably won't live long either. remember that angel turns 10 this november, thanks to her parents' love.
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 06, 2006....

    The parents obviously made the decision and it was right for them.  To dictate that this choice is right for everybody is insane.  The child is incapable of making this choice, besides children don't really get choices nor do they have rights per se until they reach the age of majority.  Really very little in medicine is a doctors choice.  You can deny surgery that will save your life, you can be taken off life support or a given medicine against the doctor's advice.  The only thing you can't really do is get into school without having certain innoculations.  If the doctors and the parents agree that this child wouldn't live a life worth living I have no problem with this.

    Yeah if I catch pnemonia tommorow nature will have made its decision.  The thing is that I am human and I care not what nature decides, we have developed quite a few methods for denying nature her due wether its by saving a child who's umbilical cord is wrapped around their throat returning from the dead via defibrolators or making islands just to prove we can (Dubai) we as humans define our existance by denying the natural order of things.

    I know a child who it's likely that many would have chosen to murder.  He's one of my best friends (well my best friends younger brother and I've spent the last decade hanging around him so he's more like an annoying kid brother.  He has cerebral palsy, only one arm works with any level of competence, both his legs are useless.  He also has a slight speech impediment and dyslexia.  He's a great guy and I love having him around.  I don't know what choice I would have made if he were my child I really don't.  He'll never be independent, he can't even use the bathroom on his own.  I'm not saying that I would have killed him as a baby I'm saying that like abortion that I want to have the choice and I wouldn't want to deny that choice to anybody else. 

     

  • tlj2442 said on Nov 06, 2006....
    I was asked by my doctor would I love and keep my child not matter what.  I said yes. I was prepared for birth defects and brain damage. Giving birth at 42 was scary enough now I had to worry about the life of my child. I prayed that if God would grant me a healthy child I would turn my life over to Christ. My son was born healthy as a horse 9 lbs 9 ounces. All of his fingers and toes. I gave my life to Christ as I promised and its the best decision I have ever made.
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Moonriver,
    I agree with you. No one should intentionally kill a sick/disabled babies. I mean, why don't they just kill adults who are in pain and unhappy then? It's not for them doctors to decide. Oh wait, they might be next :/
     
    Sean,
    LOL...I knew you're gonna say that. Anyway, it's true that in reality it depends on the parents. But I think even parents don't really have the right to kill their babies no matter how sick they are.
     
    but if a child has very little chance of survival I don't have any problem with putting them out of their misery
     
    Of course you won't have any problems, Sean. But do you know that even doctor's predictions can be wrong? Do you know how many cases that the doctors said the baby won't live this and that long but in reality, the babies proved them all wrong? Miracles or wrong prediction if you prefer, happen everyday.
     
    And no, I don't think nature has decided if you have to kill the sick newborn baby. But yeah, nature has decided that the baby should live. Give the baby a chance! As much as you believe that they can't really feel/think, those babies will struggle by itself with nature and we, as humans with all the technology should help, not terminate their lives.
     
    It's true, without man and medicine the baby probably won't live long, but so won't you. Doctors are supposed to help and heal. That's in their oath.
     
    I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
     

    Its a matter of wether we are going to let men make this decision easier.

    Yeah, it's men playing God now. Well, I got news for you, we ain't, dear Sean.

    A society cruel enough to force an ailing individual to live has no place in this world

    I feel like trout-smacking you, sean. If a society cruel enough to force an ailing individual to live should have no place in this world, well, why don't we kill all the sick people in the world then. Kill the eldery, kill people with AIDS, cancer and all.

    You're statement is borderline Nazi's T4 eugenics!

    Cheers!

  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Moonriver,
     
    Again, I completely agree with you. It's true that Angel is going to be 10 this november. She brings joy and happiness into the world and she's doing just fine :)
     
    Sean,
     
    To dictate that this choice is right for everybody is insane.
     
    Well, how about the baby's right to live??
     
    The child is incapable of making this choice, besides children don't really get choices nor do they have rights per se until they reach the age of majority
     
    So man can just kill them? People who have no 'voice' in society yet? So why don't we just kill teenagers who are sick and bring only problems to society then? They don't have any rights per se until they reach 18 or something. Hell, they can't even vote yet no?
     
    The thing is that I am human and I care not what nature decides
     
    I respectfully disagree. However godly you think humans are, we're not. We can't beat mother nature. Yes, some things can be prevented but it doesn't mean that man has beat nature. Yes, we have developed quite a few methods for denying nature but they're still nothing.
     
    No matter how advanced technology and science have become, if a person's meant to die today, he will. If a hurricane shall happen today, it will.
     
    I know a child who it's likely that many would have chosen to murder.
     
    Have you ever asked him whether he's happy being alive? Or maybe that he'd feel grateful if someone would have killed him just after he's born?
     
    Cheers!
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    TLJ,
     
    I'm happy for you. You've made the right decision :) God Bless!
     
    Cheers!
  • miss_chivuss said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Jesus H. Christ. This would SPARE families emotional trauma? What about the inability to take back a terrible mistake like killing a child that you GAVE UP on? What about the fact that sometimes people survive, miraculously, with absolutely no reason or scientific explanation? What about the fact that the IMPERFECT people are who this world is built on....their kindness, their hardships, their struggles and courage?

    Anyone who supports "humane" euthanasia for a child ALREADY BORN is a monster.
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Miss_chivuss,
     
    I totally agree with you. The world will never be the same without those so-called 'imperfect' people.
     
    Thanks for stopping by :)
     
    Cheers!
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Back in the old days, when Spartan women had babies that were deemed "not suitable" for Spartan life, they chucked the baby over a cliff. 

    Don't you think that euthanasia directly conflicts with the hippocratic oath that doctors have to take when they become doctors?  Indeed it would be "cruel" to force people to live, but to deprive them of life would be far crueler still.  Besides, the doctors are in the business of saving lives, not taking them away.  That was the controversy over Dr. Kevorkian and his "suicide machine", if you recall. 

    Especially when it comes to infants, they're so fragile, you have to be super careful in taking care of them.  They could just go in their sleep, like SIDS, do we relly need doctors to kill babies?  Even the idea of it alone makes me uneasy. 
  • gingersoul said on Nov 07, 2006....
    What if his parents had killed Stephen Hawking, one of the most brilliant mind ever?
    He was born with an irreversible neurological disease that force him to a wheel chair.
    He got a chance to grow up, he is now teaches Maths at Cambridge (the same position that was Newton's) and published many books . His physical gap didnt stop him to use the only organ he coudl use...his brain.
    This list could go on for pages....
     
    Point is: killling so called defective babies is wrong.
    Unfortunately, for many of them life will take care of the situation.
    What our society can do is helping them through their difficult process.
     
    Missb, I agrer that this should be done without cruel, persistent, selfish treatments.
     
    And I truly believe people should be able to decide when they want to die....in many cases life is hell for many....
    But this is different.....given the chance, is up to each individual life fight or succumb. 
     
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Grape,
     
    I couldn't agree more with you. The whole point of doctors is to save lives instead of taking them. Indeed just what John Wyatt said, the idea will change the fundamental nature of medicine.
     
    Ginger,
     
    Exactly! You really never know what one might become and the least we can do is give them the chance to live. I mean, they're just babies, you know. They're helpless.
     
    It's different if we talk about voluntary euthanasia/suicide on adults, it's really up to them if they wanna end their lives.
     
    Thanks for stopping by y'all :)
     
    Cheers!
  • longlegs said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Isn't that the Hitler theory, if people aren't perfect, destroy them.  Why is it that people think you must live to be a hundred to have any quality to your life.  I baby that is loved and cherished and lives only a day, still knew love and still experienced life if even for a minute.  Nature has a way of eliminating us when it is our time so my vote would be to let nature take its course. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 07, 2006....
    No I've never asked Scott if he would prefer to have been killed at birth though I venture the answer would be no.
     
    Why dont' we kill terminally ill adults?  Because uh we keep trying that Kevorkian fellow.  Other than that no good reason.  If the adult who is capable making decisions wants to be killed I see no problem with it.  If like in the case of Shaivo the person's keeper decides that they should no longer be kept alive artifically I have no problem with that either.
     
    And seriously fuck off about Hawking.  Had we lost him would it be a horrible loss.  Yeah, could you produce pages of similar cases yeah.  The thing is that they are the oddity and not the rule.  The average heavily handicapped person merely eats up tax dollars and never produces anything.  Bringing him up as an example is pretty much bullshit and you guys know it.
     
    The world is built on imperfect people?  I'm gonna raise the people's eyebrow on that one.  What major defect did Columbus, Einstien, Socrates, Caesar, King Richard, Salladin or Newton have?  What major defect does Bush have (other than mild retardation?)  Once again drop that bullshit right out your mind cus that is all it is.  I'm not saying round them up and kill them I'm merely telling you that the majority of our world wasn't built on people with terminal illnesses from birth.
     
    I know that we have allowed this debate to degenerate, mostly cus I wouldn't mind more loose translations of euthanizing but we are talking about a girl who was going to live in incredible pain and then die.  We aren't talking about a child with six fingers, one foot or even whatever it is Hawkings has.  To specifically answer the questions.
     
    The baby's right to live isn't in question here.  Not logically.  There are three logical ways for this to proceed, 4 since I'll be kind.
     
    1. humanly and peacefully kill the child.
    2. stop using state of the art procedures to prolong the child's painful life and let them die.
    3. continue using said procedures to drag out the child's life and likely watch them die anyway.
    4. take them off the machines and mysteriously they will be healed.  I mean that is what USUALLY happens isn't it?
     
    Killing a teenager who is going through a phase is fundamentally different from putting an individual with a terminal illness out of their misery.
     
    C'mon we literally killed Small Pox.  We can and do beat nature on a regular basis.  Just because we can't do everything doesn't mean we can't do pretty damn incredible things.  I care not what nature says, if we can't deny her her due now we'll work on it.  I'm sure somethings might actually be impossible (immortality) but I don't care.  We'll keep trying.
     
    If a person is meant to die today they will die?  C'mon that fairy talk and your too smart for that.  By that logic we shouldn't have doctors because if you are meant to die nothing they can do will save you and if you aren't meant to die well you just won't. 
     
    As for the oath maybe its time for a change of that oath.  I dont' want to hear about how dogma rules our lives.  Ever.  Just because that is how it was done doesn't mean that is how it shoudl be done.
     
    Once again rounding up the people with AIDS, cancer or the elderly is not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that if any one of these individuals makes the concious decision to die (or in the case that they are incapable of communicating) or their their "keeper" decides that they should die peacefully rather than continue suffering that choice should not be illegal.  What Kevorkian does shouldn't be wrong, those people wanted to die and needed help dying.  By what right do you get to dictate to another person the time and place of their death?  How much more intrusive can you possibly get?
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Isn't that the Hitler theory, if people aren't perfect, destroy them.  Why is it that people think you must live to be a hundred to have any quality to your life.  I baby that is loved and cherished and lives only a day, still knew love and still experienced life if even for a minute.  Nature has a way of eliminating us when it is our time so my vote would be to let nature take its course. 
     
    I don't think people need to live to 100 to have a quality life.  I wouldn't even put a number on it.  The thing is that you aren't voting for nature to take its course.  That would mean stepping back and likely watching the child die a horrible death.  Nature made a goddamn choice now its our chance.  We can choose to help nature along painlessly.  Or we can kick and scream about that which we cannot stop.  Its like building a brick wall to stop a tsunami.  Why waste the energy?
     
    Oh I guess I'm a monster, do I get to hide under your bed and torture you for all the pain you cause?
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Longlegs,
     
    I think if the suggestion is executed, it would almost be like hitler's T4 eugenics where 'worthless' people should be killed.
     
    I agree with you. Even if a baby should live only for a minute, it'd still be life. Thanks for stopping by :)
     
    Cheers!
  • missfickle said on Nov 07, 2006....
    This subject is a increasingly difficult subject for us as evolved species to face, but we must, believe me we must face up to the damage that science does.
     
    I work in the hospital environment, I work in the Emergency Room and I am training to be a Midwife (in america you call them obstetric nurses) Midwives in England are autonomous practitioners, who care for women throughout pregnancy birth and in the postnatal period. 
     
    When we discuss the death of an adult for some reason we can all accept in, however in the last sixty years, our evolutions and science have created a situation whereby we won't accept the death of  a baby, or child.  We have expectations that science can help everything, believe me it can't.  Scientist would like you to believe that, but the reality is, we do not have control of every situation, and from where I'm standing I hope we never will!
     
    Facing the prospect of having a child with a chromosonal or genetic abnormality is devastating, I know this from experience, because it has happened to me and my partner.  However what we found more devasting was the thought that even though nature had deemed this child incomparible with normal life, science will go to all lengths to try and save life.  With my own situation, this was impossible, and our decision in a way was taken out of our hands, nature had the last word.  Neither my partner or I would have liked the thought of bringing a severley disabled child into this already cruel world, where it is difficult to survive if you have all your faculties, let alone if you have a crippling disability.
     
    I do not agree with British Obstetricians who say we should perform euthanasia, however, fighting to keep a baby alive, who will suffer constantly throughout its life is barbaric, and as inhuman as wanting to kill it!  I have seen those children, I have talked to their parents, and their lives are a constant battle.  Many feel obliged to keep their child alive, because they think this is what society dictates, they are not being allowed to use free will! This again is no better than emotional cruelty.
     
    Also in the emergency room, we have elderly people, who teeter on the edge of life, they want to die, but their families force them to live, this old people say 'I've had enough please let me go' but again selfish emotions and society force us to keep the dead alive.  Doctors, yeh they have taken the hippocratic oath, but they are now regonsing the cruelty that they are inflicting on these poor individuals.  We now have a consent form, which states, 'DO NOT RESUSITATE ME' so that people are not forced to live.  Many Doctors now argue the case for ethanasia for certain groups of individuals.
     
    If we are to evolve we have to change our opinions, although I don't agree with active involvement in taking the life of a baby, I also realise in the real world, there are a multitude of problems facing that child and it's family.  One of the biggest issues is, what happens if that childs family die? Or the parents divorce, or the parents get ill, and can;t work.  Come on guys what happens then?
     
    I urge you all to go into the hospitals and see what is happening, because behing the scenes you will realise this world's thoughts on death need to change and they need to change fast!!!
     
    This is a very contentous issue, I hope everyone realises that we should not be judging we should be working towards a better way, a better outcome for all concerned. 
    Love and Peace MF
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  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Sean,

    OK, i think this discussion has gone off track.

    First off, Sean, I wasn't really talking about euthanasia on adults. They could kill themselves if they feel like it. I don't really care, unless of course I know the person. What Kevorkian did, well, i think he's not totally guilty.

    But what i was talking about here was the idea of killing sick newborns. Like Angel (the girl on my post). She's born with EB and doctor's predicted that she's not gonna see beyond her 1st b-day. EB is a very rare and terminal disease for babies. Now, would you kill her? Just because she has EB? EB could probably be the worst case scenario. In netherlands, they even allow euthanasia on babies with spina bifida.

    So if Angel's parents agreed with what the doctor suggested, angel wouldn't be alive now. But the parents didn't and she's going to be seeing her 10th birthday soon! Granted that Angel can never be like any other 'normal' kids, and she might be living in pain most times, but she's living a life, a loved one. And even if she's going to die in a year, can you be sure that she would've chosen not to live at all?

    Ok, the Hawking example was an oddity, that's correct. But when you said "The average heavily handicapped person merely eats up tax dollars and never produces anything.", are you implying that their lives are worthless and they're better off dead? If so then you're not much different than Hitler.

    When Miss_Chivuss said "the IMPERFECT people are who this world is built on" I think she explained enough. It refers to....their kindness, their hardships, their struggles and courage? Not literally.

    What we're discussing here is intentional killing of sick babies. Like if you're born with let's say spina bifida. They say, oh look, this baby is sick. He's just gonna be a burden for the parents. Let's just kill him, without even trying to save his life. That's not what doctors are for.

    Humans will keep progressing medically and scientifically, you're right. But eventually, there will always be things that are beyond our control. We literally killed smallpox, and I believe that we will beat AIDS and cancers too someday. But by the time, there will be new diseases emerging. That's just life. No matter how far we run, there's always someone else who runs faster, i.e nature.

    If a person is meant to die today, he will. I stand firm on that one. But like you said, we, as humans, we'll keep trying anyway. Doctors aren't God. They try and save lives, but in the end, it's nature/destiny that takes its course.

    Once again, I wasn't talking about euthanasia on adults and I wasn't trying to be intrusive. If an adult wishes to die, by all means, go ahead. Like I said, I don't think what Kevorkian did was totally wrong. Hey, don't kill the messenger. But what I found wrong about him was that he indirectly encouraged suicides.

    Peace y'all! :)

  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 07, 2006....

    Well other people kept bringint up adults which is why I touched on that subject.

    Yes I do feel that most of the heavily handicapped are worthless and we'd be better off with them dead.  But I on't advocating hunting them down and killing them and I would actively fight against someone who was doing something like that.

    When it comes to angel the parents made a decision, it was the right decision for them.  I'm not saying that this should be encouraged, I'm not saying that the doctor should get to make the decision.  I'm saying that it should be an option.  In the case of Angel where the doctor said she's unlikely to live past a year if the parents did the research (or didn't) and came to the conclusion that the doctor was right it shouldn't be illegal to do such a thing. 

    Its like abortion.  Its my sincere wish that no child ever be aborted.  Instead they would be birthed and given up for adoption and then they would be adopted and would live happily ever after.  Thing is that for starters we know this isn't reality for a number of reasons we don't need to go into.  So while ideally no child would ever be aborted I would and do fight against making it illegal.

  • bullblogg said on Nov 07, 2006....
    hey-what a topical post! my brother has downsyndrom and my parents were told the same CRAP...better for everyone if the put him in a home-went for adoption etc... my brother turned 31 two days ago, he has a fulltime job and lives with our family-he is my big brother,that simple! it sickness me to think that doctors feel they have a right to tell the parents the 'best option'- how the hell would they know? they are human, not super human! i lost a baby and what i wouldn't give to have held her................... what a sick,fu**ed up world we live in,eh!!
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Once again this is stupid.  One the doctors didn't kill your brother obviously.  Your parents didn't agree.  Your brother grew up to be well adjusted and productive.  Good.  The line that I take offense with is the part where the doctors feel they have a fight to tell the parents "the best option".
     
    That is what they are there for.  Stop with the double standard.  You wouldn't be offended if they told you the best option was to be put on medication for 6 months to clear up that rash, or to cut off your leg due to gangegreen. 
     
    A doctor has an obligation to tell you what his professional medical opinion is based on his own experiences and the data before him.  Then you get to make a decision.  Come to think of I have a friend who's younger sister has Downs, haven't spoken to him in years.  Anyway back on subject I would join you guys in your crusade if say doctors were performing these murders without consulting the parents or against the parents will.  As it stands that is obviously not the case as you guys prove with case after case of my brother, my friend, my daughter.
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    missfickle,
     
    I completely agree with you. For humans to evolve we have to change our opinions and keep an open mind to things.
     
    I think for adults, whether it's euthanasia or suicide is better sounding because they're adults. They can decide themselves what's best for them, they have their own mind, they can think.
     
    But a child's life is innocent. There's no justification in trying to euthanase them. It's barbaric.
     
    Don't worry, missfickle. I'm not judging anyone. This is just a debate. Besides, that's the whole point of the College. They want to bring this issue into a debate :)
     
    Cheers!!
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Bullblog,
     
    I'm happy that your parents made the right decision. Yes, it is one sick world we live in if they execute the infant euthanasia plan.
     
    Although even if it is legalised it'd still be up to the parents, but just the idea sends shivers down my spine.
     
    Thanks for reading and commenting :)
     
    Cheers!
  • missfickle said on Nov 07, 2006....
    MissB :-) xxxx Love and Peace xxxx
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Sean,
     
    Ok, you've made your point :) Once again, agree to disagree.
     
    Cheers!
  • CreativeWoman said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Never, never, never, never, never would I even think about ending a baby's life. Each little baby is precious.  I would give anything to have had a child...even an imperfect one.

    CW
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 07, 2006....
    If only politics worked that way.  Course agree to disagree would mostly be me winning and the option remaining open and you not taking.  :-p 
     
    Anyway as you said I made my point and I'll leave you guys to finish demonizing me as the next Hitler.
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....

    CW,

    I totally agree :) A baby's life is too precious.

    Sean,

    You just hit my achilles heel. I hate 'losing' an argument. I just have to have the last word. Ask my bf :)

    The way i see it, politics also means numbers. So considering the amount of people who's on your side, i'd say it'd be winning :D

    Oh, and good luck with your T4 program :D

    Cheers!

  • BlueOrchid said on Nov 07, 2006....
    I do NOT advocate active mercy killing of infants. However, I think sometimes DNRs are necessary and in not way equal "killing" a baby.
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 07, 2006....
    You didn't lose, you enaged me in honorable combat and look all of your major organs still function.  Like being able to stand on your own two feet after going 12 rounds with Tyson you my friend have won.  :-)
     
    Politics does mean numbers and by that measure you beat me soundly.  As I expected.  Much like creationist vs evolution the majority here is not right and they are basing their entire opinion on feelings rather than facts.  This is why I fight, if I can bring someone like you or better yet tlj (though that individual is so far Christian that I'm never going to reach them) over to my way of thinking then I will have the numbers.  Someone like you who so passionatly is against this would be an even better debator on my side if I could get you.  You already know how these people think because you are one of them. 
     
    For me its like debating in a foriegn language.  I don't comprehend the pattern of thought that goes into this process anymore than I comprehend the thought process of a suicide bomber.
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    BlueOrchid,
     
    Yes, I agree. Active mercy killing is not right, but DNRs are different. Thanks for stopping by :)
     
    Cheers!
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Sean,
     
    Well well, what can I say. I'm flattered :) But as flattered as I am, I don't think i want to crossover to your side of the fence, no offense :) But i appreciate your effort to fight though.
     
    Anyway, you said that people here are wrong because they're basing their opinions on feelings rather than facts. So I'll say, feelings are what make us humans, dear. We need both to have balance, instead of always going with the cold hard facts.
     
    Cheers ;)
     
     
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 07, 2006....
    Yeah and feelings are nice and everything but when they compete or conflict with facts they should be ignored.
     
    I know your not ready to join the darkside yet.  Don't worry I wont' give up on you though. 
  • missb said on Nov 07, 2006....
    When feelings conflict with facts, i'd go with my gut instinct :) Although I could say that even facts can be manipulated :/ Oh well...
     
    LOL....darkside, yes. Kinda reminds me of Star Wars :D Keep trying!
     
    May the force be with you!
     
    Cheers ;)
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 07, 2006....
    I go with gut when there are equal amounts of evidence on both sides.  Like with the death penalty.  Facts can be manipulated.  I could produce mounds of studies proving that the death penalty deters crime.  (Fact is nobody knows) but by simply omitting and ignoring the studies that show the opposite I could manipulate the facts.  I don't deny that. 
     
    C'mon missb I'm like your father or something!  I'll let you bake cookies on the Death Star if you join us.  Or we can play chess with the the storm troopers!
  • miss_chivuss said on Nov 08, 2006....
    No, I agree with you on the point that in the end, the decision is up to the parents. But my interpretation of the whole article was doctor-recommended mercy killings. Of course, the doctor is going to recommend something that aligns with their experiences, the data, the facts, but the fact still remains that the CHILD has a right to live, as much as any of us. Abortion before the 2nd trimester is a different story, I believe. But a living child? Even with handicaps?

    Even if this is all subjective, and just "feelings" as you say, handicapped children still have just as much of a right to live as 100 % healthy children. DNR is an option I've chosen for myself, having been in the medical profession as well, and that is also a different option. But euthanasia? That's equating children to animals. Children that cannot make their own decisions because they lack the capability. Should the child not survive for whatever reason, nature will have taken its course, but in the end, the right to live is a right granted to everyone born, regardless of sex, nationality, mental faculty, or locality.

    PS- I realize this comment is disorganized...I'm making it in the wee hours of the morning and I'm fairly exhausted. I shall continue the friendly debate when I have more mental resources at my disposal.
  • missb said on Nov 08, 2006....

    Sean,

    You're like my father?? C'mon Sean...how old are you?? :) And thanks, but no thanks. The only thing i bake is my towel, so unless you'd like a taste of that, I won't stay too long in your death star ;)

    Oh and ps, I don't play chess either, LOL.

    Miss_chivuss,

    Once again, I completely agree with you. You should try telling SeanR that, be my guest. Take your time, this thread is all yours ;)

    Cheers!

  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 08, 2006....
    @MissC: I dont' meant to imply that they don't have a right to live.  I'm denying our right to prolong their misery.  As I understand it a DNR pretty much means don't bring me back if I die, it doesn't cover don't make me live under horrific conditions.  Now as (I imagine from the way they've spoken) mother after mother has said they could never ever imagine killing their child.  So I don't believe that making this legal would make it frequent by any stretch of the imagination.  I think what it would do is that if for whatever reason one of you gave birth a child who was in so much pain that you couldn't bear to watch you'd have an option.   
     
    @missB: I'm 23.  Uh maybe I can be your cousin?  Fine if you don't bake then I can bake and you can eat?
  • missb said on Nov 08, 2006....

    Sean,

    LOL....23 huh... so young, you should be my little brother :) Oh well, a nice brother should definitely bake. But after you did, can you also please send it over? Death Star scares the shit out of me :/

    Cheers ;)

  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 08, 2006....
    Fine we don't have to be on the Death Star.  How the moon of Endor?  Its got those fuzzy warrior teddy bears running around.  If I teach them to sing that Teddy Bear Picnic song will you join the dark side?  Please?  I'm appealing to your female love of all things fuzzy!!!
  • missb said on Nov 08, 2006....

    Dear Sean,

    I think it will take more than just teddy bears and baked pies to get me to join the dark side [sighs]

    Try harder ok :D

    Cheers!

  • miss_chivuss said on Nov 09, 2006....
    Unfortunately, our perspective that those people are living prolonged misery is subjective. Since the only ones who do not have the capability to make decisions regarding their lives are also unlikely to have the ability to communicate effectively, what's to say that loving families and excellent caretakers don't mean more to them than their pain?

    They may be a drain on taxes Sean, but I'd rather have my tax money spent on a handicapped person so that their quality of life might be better than spent on someone who's taking advantage of welfare or some other government program.

    Point being, if someone cannot communicate with us that they're in misery, we're assuming that they are and then "mercy killing" as if we were psychics (which goes against all the logical arguments you have made thus far) or God (which also goes against your arguments). I understand that made into law, this instance of having to decide to put someone out of their misery would not necessarily increase, but then you'd probably also have cases where parents maybe took out insurance on a child and then "mercy killed" them and were protected by the law. Or maybe mom mistakenly dates a sociopath who has a thing for picking on helpless people. The sociopath puts the child out of their misery without mom's permission. Is he protected by the law? I can GUARANTEE that a good defense attorney would argue that he would be. Where would that leave us?
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 09, 2006....

    I suppose you've hit on an excelent point, that these children might have very selfish parents who are willing to murder their children to make their own lives easier.  Somehow I think that the cases of parents willing to do that for selfish reasons are so few and far between that its not fair to bring them into account.  It's like saying that the government should dress your daughter so that you don't turn her into a slut.  Its nearly absurd. 

    They may be a drain on taxes Sean, but I'd rather have my tax money spent on a handicapped person so that their quality of life might be better than spent on someone who's taking advantage of welfare or some other government program.

    No fair no fair!  I can't dispute this point.  Personally I'd rather neither of them receive much money but over all I cannot dispute your point.



    Point being, if someone cannot communicate with us that they're in misery, we're assuming that they are and then "mercy killing" as if we were psychics (which goes against all the logical arguments you have made thus far) or God (which also goes against your arguments).

    No we aren't assuming or mind reading.  We're empathizing.  You know what those blisters are doing.  You know what it means when a child is screaming uncontrolably and I've been around just enough kids to know that there is a distinct difference between I'm hungry and that hurt.  More than that we are talking about a mother/father's ability to communicate with their child.  We would trust them on any number of other decisions without a second guess.  Granted this is a rather permanent decision but either parents know what is best for their children or they don't.

    I understand that made into law, this instance of having to decide to put someone out of their misery would not necessarily increase, but then you'd probably also have cases where parents maybe took out insurance on a child and then "mercy killed" them and were protected by the law.

    I might be wrong but I don't think you could do that.  A mercy killing at the very least should by its nature negate your insurance.  That particular point is a silly argument.

    Or maybe mom mistakenly dates a sociopath who has a thing for picking on helpless people. The sociopath puts the child out of their misery without mom's permission. Is he protected by the law? I can GUARANTEE that a good defense attorney would argue that he would be. Where would that leave us?

    Well first I'd say it couldn't be done without the permission of both parents or atleast both that were available.  You'd need a hell of a lawyer to get yourself off on that kind of situation anyway.  When it comes to violence, particularly towards children any objective look clearly displays that women are more likely to get off.  Second the mercy killing would require a doctor's hand.  I'm not talking that the parents get to smash the child's head against a rock I suggesting a doctor gets to humanly kill the child.
     
    Still when all is said and done I suppose it is at least theoretically possible that a sadistic man would kill a child but it would only happen once in a great while and honestly while I'm not saying that its ok if it happens once you can't make national policy based on things that might happen very rarely.  Do you ban knives because of murderers (which I'm sure are more common than baby killing sickos) I could go on and on but that isn't at all a solid argument.
     
    The only good argument against this is something that you'll never convince me of.  And that is that the idea that life is always for everybody the best option.  That under no circumstanes can a person be better off dead.
  • miss_chivuss said on Nov 09, 2006....
    Oh I never said that life is always the best choice and that no one is better off dead. I just enjoy debating this point with you because you're thinking this through. Though at first your posts were a little cynical, and perhaps bitter towards those who are a tax drain, I can appreciate your points because you're not forcing the issue.

    Plus I like the fact that you can't argue with one of my points ;) Hehehe...

    And I pose this....what of the emotional trama of a doctor who has to be responsible for this mercy killing?

    I agree that we all know the difference between cries of happiness and cries of pain. What I said, was how do we know that a loving home does not outweigh the pain for a child that cannot communicate? Although handicapped, they still UNDERSTAND what's going on around them.

    And I'm assuming at this point, but if you're not religious, you don't see the obvious repercussions of playing God here :)
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 09, 2006....

    Its kind of implied that you believe life is the best option by your argument that anybody who cannot make the conscious decision for themselves to commit suicide can't have that decision made for them.  Once again I wouldn't feel comfortable making that decision for my parents if they were in that position but I'd use my best judgement.  I know if I'm ever in that position I want somebody to pull the goddamn plug.

    I really don't care about the doctor's emotional trama if we are being honest.  He suggested the process so I would imagine that he would feel better about putting the kid down than day after day having to do whatever processes are necessary to keep the child alive and in as little pain as possible.  If the doctor doesn't feel comfortable with it they can refuse to perform the process.  Kinda like that doctor refused to give that girl the Day After Pill a few months back.

    We aren't talking about the handicapped here in most cases.  I'm not talking about a kid with 6 fingers, I'm not even really talking about people with Downs Syndrome (though I'd be willing to take that on a case by case basis)  I'm talking about a child who is nearly garunteed to die a painful death in short order.  I'm talking about someone that we can do little to nothing to improve their life or cure them of their condition but we can only prolong their suffering. 

    At some point you have to let the parents decide for their children when they cannot communicate.  I mean I'm aware that they can't speak, nor could Terry Schaivo but eventually you have to trust that parents know best. 

    We don't know, and I don't expect us to know.  I do however expect a mother and father to know if they can provide an enviroment fitting for the special child.  I do expect a parent to know if murder is the best answer in the situation just like I trust them to know best what schools to put them in, what music they can listen to and you know everything else involved with being a parent.

    And I'm assuming at this point, but if you're not religious, you don't see the obvious repercussions of playing God here :)

    Actually I don't see how religion comes into effect in this argument save possibly on my side.  There are plenty of Christians who refuse medicine and instead trust in God to care for them.  Not caring for these children and isntead letting nature take its course would be considered insufferably cruel by I think everybody. 

    My question is this.  How is it anymore playing God to put somebody out of their misery rather than let them suffer than it is to recitate somebody and restore their heartbeat?  Or for that matter taking penicillian?  If there is infact a God who infact has a plan there are only two ways (logically) to look at it.  Either A medicine is a waste of time and effort cus if its your time its your time or B he gave us/allowed us to have the knowledge to change things and we are supposed to use it and our best judgement.

  • miss_chivuss said on Nov 09, 2006....
    Actually, faith doesn't dictate the necessity to choose between A and B. If one truly believes he has a plan, then there is a reason for medicine, there's a reason for a heart beat being restored, and there's a reason for every special child to be born.

    Do you honestly consider 6 fingered people handicapped? You and I have drastically different definitions of handicapped doll.

    Of course I believe life is the best option. You've pointed out that it is a rarity that diseases are spontaneously and mysteriously cured, but how can we predict when and where that will happen? We could be taking away the chance to live a wonderful life from someone who was meant to live. Use my argument against me if you will, about God having a plan, but in the end the plan includes room for personal choices.

    I personally, would pull the plug for someone whom I knew would want something like that. Myself, as I said, I have a DNR order (Do Not Resuscitate) because I am an organ donor. Given the choice to live life in a vegetative or severely handicapped state or to give up my life so that someone who might have been born with a life-threatening condition and survived doctors who predicted they'd die soon and painfully actually has a chance at a happy life? That to me is the essence of having a choice in God's plan.


    Again, taking that chance away from someone whose future is as unpredictable as yours and mine, and who is incapable of making the decision is just as cruel as "prolonging misery". And as for Terry Schiavo....how humane was it to let her slowly starve to death as cameras watched her around the clock?
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 09, 2006....

    Actually, faith doesn't dictate the necessity to choose between A and B. If one truly believes he has a plan, then there is a reason for medicine, there's a reason for a heart beat being restored, and there's a reason for every special child to be born.

    And a reason for every stray bullet that strikes a child down.

     

    Do you honestly consider 6 fingered people handicapped? You and I have drastically different definitions of handicapped doll. 

    No not really but I was trying to make my point that I'm not saying whole sale slaughter for any defect or handicap.  I'm saying that if a doctor feels that this child has no chance at a life worth living and the parents agree that that option should legally be open.  I don't really think it will be taken any more than it already is and i'm quite sure it already is.

    Of course I believe life is the best option. You've pointed out that it is a rarity that diseases are spontaneously and mysteriously cured, but how can we predict when and where that will happen? We could be taking away the chance to live a wonderful life from someone who was meant to live. Use my argument against me if you will, about God having a plan, but in the end the plan includes room for personal choices.

    Point exactly.  Its a personal choice.  We can't count on diseases being spontaneously cured.  Does it happen yes.  I just wouldn't feel comfortable making a decision based on it happening anymore than I would trust not taking medicine for said condition on the off chance that I might get spontanously cured.

    I personally, would pull the plug for someone whom I knew would want something like that. Myself, as I said, I have a DNR order (Do Not Resuscitate) because I am an organ donor. Given the choice to live life in a vegetative or severely handicapped state or to give up my life so that someone who might have been born with a life-threatening condition and survived doctors who predicted they'd die soon and painfully actually has a chance at a happy life? That to me is the essence of having a choice in God's plan.

    Honestly this is again a point that I can't argue. 


    Again, taking that chance away from someone whose future is as unpredictable as yours and mine, and who is incapable of making the decision is just as cruel as "prolonging misery". And as for Terry Schiavo....how humane was it to let her slowly starve to death as cameras watched her around the clock?

    I disagree on that.  I really feel worse about watching something struggle knowing its fate than to kill it cleanly.  I can't stand to watch roadkill twitch in the road, there is something truly inhuman (IMO) about watching something struggle when there is no point if you discount miraculous recovery.

    In the case of Terry what happened to her was incredibly inhuman.  She should have been killed.  Somebody should have had the humanity to finish her off, hell I would have just put a pillow over her face, and that's a fucked up way to die.  I've nearly suffocated enough times to know that is not a cool way to go.  Still its got to be better than starvation.  That was story that I couldn't even bear to follow because it went so strongly against what is human to me.  You don't watch people suffer, ever.  You help end their suffering, sometimes there is only one way to do that and its rushing a slow process.  I hope that there

     

  • bullblogg said on Nov 10, 2006....
    sean-bullblogg here-just to respond to your comment regarding my comment-my brother was born a healthy 13lb bouncing boy-with downsyndrom-why would any doctor tell a parent(s) that one of their options were to have him adopted due to how hard it would be to raise him. i ask you would that be the first words out of a doctors mouth if he hadn't downs-the answer is no! and when my mum was told-baby in her womb didnt look quite 'right' -she was again asked did she want to terminate the baby! why,that makes no sense-i was told my baby was going to be as small as a bag of sugar,i was advised by doctors to prepare myself for an unhealthy baby-he was born a month premature 6lb 7oz and he was and is fine and healthy! doctors are often wrong,they are  there to tell parents what to do regarding their kids only medically and often they get that wrong!!!  we will have to agree to disagree,me thinks dude!!!
  • bullblogg said on Nov 10, 2006....
    p.s sean- there is a huge difference between a rash and your childs life,what a *stupid comparison on your behalf. (*not a nice word to use but you use it so easily) have you ever been the parent? have you ever had a doc tell you its 'best' to kill your child?  i gather from reading your opinions that you haven't a clue what it feels like.....BULLBLOGG
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 10, 2006....
    *Sigh* I hate it when I get ignorant responses like this.  First of all I agree with you the doctor shouldn't have made the first option to terminate the baby.  That should be a last option.  Second who cares that sometimes doctor's are wrong, usually they are right.  Unless your argument is that a doctor's opinion is worthless in a medical situation your argument holds no water.
     
    If I thought that you were too young, too poor or what not to provide the proper care for a special child I might suggest you put it up for adoption.  Though honestly I would think that as far as adoption that would be none of my/his bussiness. 
     
    If a doctor told you to amputate a leg you'd consider it an option.  If he told you to let him remove a kidney or 10 feet of intestine you consider it.  You might get a second opinion (which there is nothing stoping you from doing here I might add) and then once you had all the facts you'd weigh them and you'd make a decision
     
    Once again the bottom line comes to this Bull.  If you daughter had been born with a terminal disease that was very likely/garunteed to kill her painfully within a year and you couldn't bear to watch her in that pain would you want to go to jail for putting your daughter out of her misery.
     
    Once again I'm not saying that a doctor gets final say.  In reality they don't get final say in really much of anything unless you are unable to communicate and you have no next of kin or anybody else to speak for you.  The final decision would still be yours both of your stories would have turned out the same if the right laws were passed to make this legal. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 10, 2006....
    p.s sean- there is a huge difference between a rash and your childs life,what a *stupid comparison on your behalf. (*not a nice word to use but you use it so easily) have you ever been the parent? have you ever had a doc tell you its 'best' to kill your child?  i gather from reading your opinions that you haven't a clue what it feels like.....BULLBLOGG
     
    That only makes my point stronger that if this were legal it would still only be used in extreme cases.  Which I'm sure its already being used in when everybody feels its the only human option.  Just like I'm sure Kevorkian isn't the only person murdering people with terminal illnesses he's just the only one brave enough to come out and sayt it.
  • bullblogg said on Nov 10, 2006....
    we'll leave it there eh? i hear what you are saying and i respect your point of view and i can understand your point-i just hope none of us ever have such a horrible decision to have to make,i dont even like this discussion ,if  im being totallly honest...one more thing sean,if you dont agree with my opinions,thats fine but there is no need to be so condesending,im many things, ignorant is not one of them,thank you for your opinions,i admire a person who speaks their mind-just less of the insults-intended or not.
  • SeanRenaud said on Nov 10, 2006....
    we'll leave it there eh? i hear what you are saying and i respect your point of view and i can understand your point-i just hope none of us ever have such a horrible decision to have to make,i dont even like this discussion ,if  im being totallly honest...one more thing sean,if you dont agree with my opinions,thats fine but there is no need to be so condesending,im many things, ignorant is not one of them,thank you for your opinions,i admire a person who speaks their mind-just less of the insults-intended or not.
    First I didnt' say you were ignorant I said that the statement was.  Which I feel justified in saying.  What you did was an extension of the Steven Hawkings argument.  Its like my proving that there are black republicans or Christian liberals and using that to argue that blacks don't vote democrat and the Church doesn't vote Republican. 
     
    If you think I was condescending here I hope you never meet me in a place were religion is being discussed because I went through great lengths to keep the claws in throughout this whole conversation.
     
    Finally if I thought you were an idiot I wouldn't be shy about calling you that.  I think at a certain point you have to be honest and stop giving people the benefit of respect.  If a person believes that animals magically appeared out of no place the time has passed for inteligent debate.  Call them stupid and move on.  If somebody is out on the ocean and starts praying to Posideon for guidance call them an idiot and bust out the GPS.  If somebody

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