• aeschylus said on Oct 08, 2006....

  ZsuzsiO ...
  
  You need to talk first to legal counsel where you and your son reside. There are jurisdictional issues, apparently international ones.
  
  Until you know where jurisdiction over this matter lies, which is based on residency for a certain period of time, there is very little anyone can do to advise you.
  
  Further, no professional (at least in U.S.) can advise you in a forum such as this or online at all really. They have to comply with their rules.
  
  I suggest finding someone locally to start doing whatever needs to be done to protect yourself and your son. That's really all that can be done from here.
  
  International custody laws can be very "difficult." There is, however, a gentleman named Bill Hilton, who has done a great deal of work and research on this topic in the past, particularly regarding international jurisdiction. I last spoke to him in about 2004, and I believe he told me he was retiring (age and serious health problems), but I see that his site is still online. You can start your own research at:
  
  http://www.hiltonhouse.com/
  
  ... but this is for research, to educate yourself and for the benefit of any local legal counsel you may have.
  
  I wish you luck, and suggest the first step would be to find a way to approach all of this as calmly as you can. That's So! difficult, but so necessary as well.
  
  aeschylus
  bai ming sheng
  

• aeschylus said on Oct 08, 2006....

  Also ...
  
  You can find some information on international child custody cases at the American Bar Association's website at:
  
  http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/magazine/1999/oct-nov/oct99cro.html
  
  aeschylus
  bai ming sheng
  

• gingersoul said on Oct 08, 2006....

  Aeschilus,
  i have to thank you for posting those links above.
  The problem that Zsuzsio is facing really scares me.
  I might be in the middle of an international legal issue with my ex over my future (possible) decision to move back in Italy with our daughter.
  
  
  Zsuzsio, i hope you can solve your problem for your sake and the sake of your son. I wish you luck.
  

• aeschylus said on Oct 08, 2006....

  Thank you both for bringing this subject up.
  
  One of my new domains is dedicated to legal issues for "citizens" where NUMEROUS resources to help people will be published.
  
  My research archives are massive and its simply a matter of getting the information online properly, time allowing. I dread that they will collect dust on a hard drive somewhere, or be deleted by some fool who doesn't recognize their value.
  
  Thanks again, and good luck to you both!
  
  aeschylus
  bai ming sheng
  

• ZsuzsiO said on Oct 09, 2006....

  Aeschylus! I am wowed by your intesivity about the subject! I would have never thought that any one would be interesting enough to research this subject! Thank you so much for doing so!
  
  Gingersoul! I really don't know your situation and each case is different. But when I was in the USA I didn't even had a lawyer when I was filing for taking my son home (and get some child support finaly). I won by Mediation but don't forget, both my ex and I are from a foregin country and the child was born over here as well. So basically, as long as I am not an alcoholic, a drug user, or homeless there is not much against two foregin citizen going back home. Other than these mationed reasons could also be if I woould be abusing my child or live a dangerous life style (prostitution). In some rare cases the mother's hectic schedule can be a question mark as well, but in the USA (at least Florida where I did all my researchesat the time) you really need to prove to be unfit for a court to take your child away from you. If you are an Italian citizen and your child was born in Italy as well, and you are a fit mother there is nothing to fear. Even if your husband is American the cards are still in your hand. The worst situation is if both father and child are American's but still, he would have to prove in court that you are unfit to raise your child. So think about it, and get a good lawyer if you can. I didn't even bother to spend my money on it. I knew I will take my son home with me. At the end I didn't even renew my visa and droped out of school, so the American judge could not really tell me to stay in the USA as an illegal alien. There are ways, you just have to be smart. Know that every little thing takes long months before there is any result, and that time is all yours to manipulate. It's a war, honey, and you are going to be his enemy once it starts. And it'll never end. Divorce is just the beginning. As long as you have a mutual child, your ex will be in your life trying to hurt you. There are some rear ccases when the two parties are becommng best friends but once you are a divorcee, you will sudenly realize how many women are in your shoes. And almost none of them are telling you happy stories.
  So if you are concidering divorce, than think twice. You should only do it if you are convinced that there is NO other way. But if you are there, than don't be scared! We are stronger than we think.
  If you have already done it, than you know exactly what I'm talking about. If you need to talk to me any time, look me up here!
  
  Thanks for your comments
  

• aeschylus said on Oct 09, 2006....

  ZsuzsiO ...
  
  Do not, repeat do not! trust the U.S. courts; they are corrupt to the core, especially the family courts.
  
  And most judges are too stupid to understand jurisdiction at all. If it's on their desk, they will try to take jurisdiction. You have some advantages. Keep it in the country you are in, and keep your child there as well. And hold onto that Visa!
  
  I have case law where the child was actually IN the Philippines, under order of a Philippine court, and the U.S. court (Missouri) threw the mom in jail for months because she wouldn't release the child's visa and return the child to the U.S. The abusive dad "just happened" to be a U.S. citizen.
  
  Protect yourself and get some legal counsel where you are. Now.
  
  aeschylus
  bai ming sheng
  

• ZsuzsiO said on Oct 09, 2006....

  So here is how I see it. I came back to Israel over a year ago due to my original citizenship and my ex's ongoing war games. I gave up everything to keep my child and I arrived here with nothing but my bags. While my ex is living the high time of his life on his new American wife's money, putting everything on her name so he does not have to pay a larger amount of child support. He also denied the Jewish divorce one I've got here, so for almost a year I could not get any help in my country due to my married status by the Rabbanut - while he was already married for years. Of course, after threatening him with a law suit (bigamy if I spell it right) he had to have it done by now.
  All these events lead me to the Israeli system. The Mayor of my city was personally trying to help us at the times when I could not get anything from my governemt. He also directed me to the best doctors once the problems started in my son's school. There were meetings at the school with all the professonals involved. There wee meetings with the social worker and finally, the local family doctor had to see him before actually going to the Neurologist. The neurologist, a profesor in the biggest hospital that is also an army hospital, and whom also has a personal practice, sent us to have all kinds of tests done: hearing, EEG, blood test before he put him on Ritalin. There are check up every 3-4 months. The national health insurrance also had a meeting with us and agreed to my son's "disability". We were also sent to the Mental Development Services, where we've had meetings with both a Psychiatrist and a Psychologist to see if we could get theray for my son. We are on the waiting list - there are way too many children with ADHD/ADD today from low family income who are waiting for the same therapy. Above all this, we are also waiting to get in to the Child Development Center to have my son in small motor therapy. He seems to have some difficulties holding the pencil or the silver wear in his hands. I see the same problem with the tooth brush or even just washing his face or wiping himself. Don't get me wrong, my son is perfectly healthy. It's just that we want to make sure that he will get help in every way he might need it, posibly avoiding one or two of the treatments as the result of any of the above mentioned.
  
  Knowing all this, and having all these people behind me, I really do not see any possible reason for even questioning my ability of being a good mother. taking him away from me does not seem to be realistic.
  The implications on my questionable life style ( living the child unattended at night, living him unattended during the day, unstable employment, numerous movings, "fights" and "war") are all lies and in order to become reality, my ex would have to prove them. War was never around the area where we live, but even the latest problems were at the time my son was visiting in the USA. Again, nothing.
  So who is he going to take to court to? The profesor who has a respectabel practice and helping our soldiers? Or me who is only doing what a group of professonals are advising to me?
  Nonesence!
  However, I can see how the prof. could look at all this and say, unless both parents agree, he will not give us any more treatment. After all, we have shared parental responsibilities with my ex, which means that decisons must be made together.
  Now, anything my ex might want to do about this will take a long time for him to get to the court. In the mean time, I will hand these papers to our social worker and talk about the matter to see what she is thinking about it. But as soon as the medicine will be stoped, and my son's behavior will effect his education and his relationship to his environment, I will be filing in court against my ex. I will ask for solid custody, with no bullshit from my ex. This will prove that he only tries to use the child to get to me, hurting the child with in the process.. It will show all the lies he is trying to make up against me, and he wil be held responsible for the damege he has been done to us.
  I know that my son needs his dad. I know that stopping him from seeing him would be the worst for my baby. But I will ask the judge to forbid the father taking the child out of Israel. I will ask for supervised visitations only.
  Enough is enough.
  
  However, I guess my dreams of going back to the USA will never come true. Or maybe, only jears from now, when my son is bigger and might not need any medications. Another 5 years maybe?
  
  ....
  
  In the mean time, I do nothing. I'll go to the appointment on the 15th. (to the prof.) and see what he'll say. I'll just keep on doing whatever he says. Than the ball is back in my ex's hands.
  
  
  Thanks for reading me.
  

• ZsuzsiO said on Oct 09, 2006....

  Aschylus! I'm not sure what the response was meant to react to, but of course I did not meant to her to kidnep her son. Everything must be done by the court. All I'm saying is that if the mother and the child were born as foreign citizens, most likely she will be alowed to take her child home. Even if the child's father is an American citizen - although that makes things much more difficult. In that case she will have to prove that it will benefit the child to move to Italy. As I said, every case different. When I divorced my ex, I made sure that our papers state that if I move, my son goes with me, and if he moves my son stayes with me. Yet, I still reopened the case to get a final OK from the judge. Here is the catch:
  Even if your papers say that you can take your child out of the country, you will still have to provide a hand written letter from the father (both in english and native language) that he releases the child and all his belongings with free will according to your agreement. That is why I had to go to court again, since my ex wouldn't have done it just for my two beautiful eyes. So i asked the judge to order him to do so. And by the way adjust child support as well due to new curcumstances. So, just leaving the country will not work no matter how good of a case you've got there.
  Thanks for remindig me to add this information. This is the most important! And oh, by the way! If you get any papers, make sure that they are all notorized by INTERNATIONAL notory - Head of State!!!!! Without that you will have huge problems in your home country!!!! I know, it happened to me.
  Just a regular court notory will not be enough in Italy. And if you are smart, and have some cash to blow, you also get everything translated right away and notorized at once. It'll save time since the international notary must be from the state you divorced and handeled the whole case. And if you are in Italy.... Who is in the USA? Your ex? You will need ORIGINAL papers, not copies. And you will have to ask the court to send these pepers to the head of state for notorization. It's a whole different proces which must be one before you leave -if you leave.
  Good luck again!
  

• ZsuzsiO said on Oct 09, 2006....

  I've checked those links out. Thenk you. they were very helpfull and I did find a case where the other party was mentioning war in Israel and was denied with reasosning. I prited it out so I can use it as a refenernce in case I'll need it.
  However, both links deal with Minors unlawful removal from habitual residence. This may involve vistation rights as reasoning, question of habitual residence and such. But I am over that period now. I have moved lawfuly with my son.
  Now the question is more of rather or not my ex's order of stop treatment could be taken seriously or not, could that change anything in our curent custody situation or may that involve any fees, fines or inprisonmet if found "guilty" (it tha's a possibility at al). What would a judge do? Order to stop the treatment and agree that I am a bad mother? Or ignore it at all? If this would cause to stop treatment by the prof.'s willingnes or by court, and that would effect my son's life in a negative way, will that be a reason for me to file for further actions?
  Only after these questions were answered we would have to look into international law, but still not as unlawful removal - unless of course my ex would take the child unlawfully. And that I can only imagine if
  -The doctor continiues with treatment and i follow his instructions
  -my ex files against us in court and actually wins the case, ordering to stop treatment
  -my ex files against me saying that I have denied his parental trights by ignoring his request to stop treatment and actually wins that case.
  -By winning the case the judge denies shared parental responsibilities and gives sole custody to my ex. (But there could be fees, inprisonment instead or together, depending how seriously damaged and abused my son apears to be by me)
  -Once having sole custody and primary residency over the child, my ex would have to file for the lawful removal of the child in order to retun him to the USA.
  
  All this must happen in Israel, since this is my son's habitual residency. American court will not deal with it due to something called The Hague Convention.
  
  
  So the question we will have to wait to get the answer for is this:
  
  By taking his son to get second and third oppinion (without consulting me and without my knowledge of whom these consultants are, but assuming that they both close friends of my ex's family) based on his shared parental responsibility rights, can or cannot my ex win a case against his child's medical and supporting team provided by the govenment, resulting to stop the given treatment to the child?
  Can I be held responsible for not following the father's request?
  If held responsibe, can this actually do more than just stopping the treatment - can it get me in trouble?
  Finally, I assume years later, in worst case senerial, Can a case like this be a reason to adjust shared parental responsibilities to sole custody to any of the sides?
  
  If all would go wrong - I hope not - I might have to face the possibility of my son returning to the USA with his dad.
  
  I just don't see it happening.
  
  As I already decided, I will do nothing for now. I will see the prof., I will do what he says and only if things go wrong for my son I will act with legal help. Let him do all the work. he sees to have the money and the time for it.
  I really don't think I'm doing anything unlawful as long as I follow the doctors' and professonals' advice.
  

• aeschylus said on Oct 09, 2006....

  Just a caution ...
  
  Get the advice now, not in a crisis.
  Don't assume anything.
  
  Just because dad hasn't removed son illegally so far, doesn't mean he won't try to buy an american judge to help him do so.
  
  Possession is 9/10ths of any battle in U.S. family court.
  
  CYA - cover your ass.
  
  I won't say more here, but I've looked at too much crazy case law and reviewed too many judges who wouldn't be qualified to teach kindergarten math.
  
  Good luck to anyone going through this.
  

• Ormocanon said on Oct 13, 2006....

  I hate to tell you this, but lawyers don't give free legal advice especially in the internet.
  Why don't you go see a divorce lawyer, instead of wasting your time asking for advice here, we're not well-versed in the ins and outs of divorce.
  Only a divorce lawyer can help you with this problem. No offense meant but what advise you get here, you take with a grain of salt.
  
  I hope you get over this problem soon.
  

• aeschylus said on Oct 14, 2006....

  Ormocanon ...
  
  First, there are a number of sites online to get legal advice regarding divorce and custody issues, many of them excellent.
  
  Second, she's dealing with custody issues, not a divorce, and she's in Israel, dealing with international jurisdiction issues. FYI, it's under the laws of the Hague Convention.
  
  Third, the U.S. courts are SUPPOSED to be accessible and available to CITIZENS, not just greedy lawyers and stupid judges.
  
  The movement is called Civil Gideon ... the new revolution ... the effort for Americans to regain access to the courts.
  
  aeschylus
  bai ming sheng
  

• Ormocanon said on Oct 14, 2006....

  Oh oh, sorry about that aeschylus, I thought custody issues are part of the divorce proceedings.
  Are there really sites who give legal advice for free?
  This is the first time I know about it, I was under the impression that lawyers almost never give legal advice for free.
  Thanks for pointing it out.
  

• ZsuzsiO said on Oct 14, 2006....

  Thank you both for your comments. I know that the best is to get a lawyer and let him deal with it. But my personal experience made me realize that lawyers are no more than people who fight against other people. None of them are perfect and only high profile, high cost lawyers are specialized in sertain subjects like this one. And even than, it all comes down to who is the better lawyer between the two. It's never about the truth nor justice.
  So I'm not really looking for professonal advice but more like support of people who read me as outsiders and tell me how they feel about my story. Do you think I'm wrong? Do you think I'm right? Do you think I should reconsider any of my actions? Or even better, Do you have any information that could help me with research my own possibilities? After all once all this will actually become a legal issue (if it will at all) I will have to go to a lawyer. But that lawyer might not be as good as the one the other side has. So it never hurts to look at my life, my problem from another point of view, make some changes, or go on doing what I'm doing with support. I can gain information my lawyer might be able to use in the future - if he is smart and needs it. I can spend my time on looking for other people who deal with children with ADHD/ADD and share our experiences. I can talk to people about positive and nevative effects of the drug. I can find similar cases and compare them to mine.
  I was expecting more reactions from people who could actually share their experience about this drug. I know that there are so many people giving it to their children. I know that there are studies about the drug and I know that there are adults who know more about it than I do. However, I did not get that kind of response.
  But ti wasn't a waist of time as you might read other responses. I did get some exelent information, where I've gaind some very important facts I could use in the future.
  
  But I do agree with you. A case like this needs a lawyer. ASnd lawyers will do nothing for free.
  
  But did you hear about legal aid? Pro Bono?
  Yes, you can find a lawyer for free. I'm not saying it will be the best lawyer in the practice, but it does exist.
  

• aeschylus said on Oct 14, 2006....

  Zsuzsio and Ormocanon ...
  
  Yes, jurisdictional issues need an attorney AND one who is experienced. However, even the experienced ones get screwed by stupid judges who don't understand the law, so you have to be very careful.
  
  Yes, there are a LOT of online sites that will give basic free "advice" ... the first being, "get some professional advice."
  
  I have a domain that will be dedicated to helping people find and pursue their legal rights with or without an attorney AT THEIR SIDE. Most people don't take responsibility for their legal problems, including educating themselves. That makes for a lot of greedy lawyers.
  
  My computer is about to shut down with updates. I'll try to follow more on this later.
  
  aeschylus
  bai ming sheng
  

Comment on "professonal advice needed urgently!"

Currently tagged	children divorce life life children divorce international marriage legal advice (Click to add tags below)
Tag this post	(Separate tags using commas, for example: New York, dating, vegetarian)
Your comment
	Comment Anonymously