• bloc said on Oct 05, 2006....

  the fence is a waste of money. My guess is that they are doing it for the election :/
  

• missb said on Oct 05, 2006....

  Bloc, I agree with you about the money. I don't think a fence barrier will ever stop immigrants from coming in. They're just gonna try even harder and risking more :/
  
  Cheers!
  

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 05, 2006....

  Damn you Blochead again we agree, least mostly!!! I relaly strongly believe that the wall is a feel good technique. We can (and have) proven that putting up a fense makes them migrate in other places. Hell if I remember right the US got sued because the fense forced illegals to walk through more dangerous parts of the desert and many died in transit. Still at this point it would be something and I approve of it.
  
  That said illegal immigration is a problem both economically and security wise. They bring (or can) diseases, terrorists, drugs and weapons all of which should be considered. Of the 10 cities with huge rich to poor gaps 7 of them have problems with immigration. Coincidence? Maybe.
  
  My stand is that immigrants are good, I take offense to your article however because you begin with a blog about ILLEGAL aliens but your last question asks how I feel about immigrants. The legal status makes all the difference in my mind.
  
  Come to America, leave your culture at home. You came here because American culture is superior to whatever place you migrated from. Now before (or after) you jump down my throat listen when I say leave your culture behind I don't mean or care about you eating tacos, praying 5 times a day facing Mecca or glueing? dots to your forehead. I'm saying you need to learn English. I'm not saying you can't celebrate Roshashana or Chinese New Year. I'm saying you can no longer drown baby girls or kill your daughters for infidelity. I'm not saying you can't dress a certain way in your home, I'm saying that our schools and certain other places of bussiness have dress codes that demand you (ladies included) remove all manner of clothes from your head. We don't think it looks professional.
  
  In short I welcome immigrants who come to America legally and help enrich our culture by taking what is great about America, what is great about their homeland and combining it into something greater than either alone. Then spreading it so that others can enjoy the good things of your culture without experiencing whatever horrors drove you to leave there.
  

• totally_cd said on Oct 06, 2006....

  missb, i understand your concerns. in my country, too, many of my people will move heaven and earth to migrate to a country they thought is a land made of honey. i can not blame them. aside from lack of better job opportunities here they are equipped with the education, the work experience, the ability to adapt easily and the knack to speak better english(and can write and spell better english than americans). in fact, my people now prefers europe than usa because they are treated there as human beings!
  
  if i will have my way, i will create jobs so that they will stay here. they do not want to leave their families here and work overseas.
  
  my parents and a brother are us of a legal immigrants (with lots of other relatives) and they seemed happy living there although they encountered some rude, insensitive dorks pretending to be the superior race. i told my parents that the indians are the real us of a citizens and all other races came from immigrants too.
  

• Bordy said on Oct 06, 2006....

  Living in Northern Mexico.. err.. San Diego, I saw a huge problem with it. If you're coming here, great. Learn english. get a real job. Don't clog the street corners and Home Depot parking lots waiting for passing work. Fly an American flag above the Mexican flag, if you must fly one at all. And, once again, learn friggin English.
  
  Sorry for the mini-rant, its an angry type of morning.
  

• RollingC said on Oct 06, 2006....

  As far as the fence goes, I think it's a waste of money. There's got to be other ways to spend it better to stop illegal immigrants.
  Speaking as an immigrant, that's what this country is made up of...hello?...but everyone should go through the process even if the bureaucracy and red tape suck canal water.
  Hey...we did it, and the entire family (relatives) too.
  
  Afterthought:- Years after the Berlin wall goes down, the US
  Mexico wall goes up. Don't you just love politics?
  

• Bordy said on Oct 06, 2006....

  But by the logic that trying to keep others out of our country is wrong, why not yell at England for not making a bridge across the atlantic for anyone who wants to go there? Or Australia?
  
  Or how about that damned Antarctica, placing itself so far south of everybody so no one can get in to it? Those isolationist bastards!
  

• RollingC said on Oct 06, 2006....

  Well, England did make that tunnel to France....but those Penguins...
  Those Penguins are real isolationists they are...
  

• curmudgeon said on Oct 06, 2006....

  The fence, according to some news reports, was effective at stopping illegals from crossing the border in those areas. I can understand why people would want to lengthen it, especially the ranchers on the border who have to deal with all the foot traffic through their property at all hours of the night. They have virtually no police protection, and have no idea who is going to knock on their doors. Were I in the same situation, I'd want a fence too.
  
  Of course, the really effective thing would be to help Mexico and the other Latin American countries improve conditions there so people won't feel the need to move. But that's a long-term solution.
  
  America is in a quandry, however. We need cheap labor and people who are happy to do the dirty jobs we seem unwilling to send our children off to do. Remember the days when young men made a little money mowing lawns around the neighborhood? Now it's teams of greenspeople who don't speak English. Minimum wage laws also encourage the hiring of under the table workers. And yes, as Sean points out, the gaps between rich and poor aren't just expanding because the rich are getting richer, but also because the pool of poor people is expanding and driving the low end of the wage scale through the floor.
  
  We should not confuse what we want to do about illegal immigrants crossing the border with our need for new, law-abiding workers willing to grasp the lowest rungs of our socioeconomic ladder. It's not racist to simply want our Government to secure its borders. It's not racist to wonder who is supposed to pay for the health care of people who don't have insurance. It's not racist to want our Government to have some idea of who is coming and settling down here.
  These are all legitimate concerns and of course the yahoos on the left are playing the "anti-immigrant" card because race-baiting is all they have.
  
  What IS racist is for upscale liberals to pretend to care about immigrants and diversity when all they really want is someone cheap to raise their kids, mow their lawns and wash dishes at their tony neighborhood bistros. And then they feel all good about themselves because look - they're providing economic opportunity to those little brown and yellow people!
  
  What IS racist is to speak up for the "right" for people to illegaly enter this country, but then do nothing about their inequality under the law once they're here. What IS racist is to have City Councils direct their police departments not to inquire about immigration status but DO NOTHING about the ramapant drug dealing, sex slavery and rising gang membership and activity in these communities.
  
  Where the hell are Kerry, Clinton, Dean and Reid on letting illegals join unions and entitling them to minimum wage an benefits? Nowhere! Where the hell are they on finding, arresting and deporting gang members who plague the communities of hard working immigrants? Nowehere! Why? Because they're afraid of appearing "anti-immigrant". Their own politically correct hoo-haa on diversity boxes them into inaction while immigrant communities suffer. If these libs are so supportive of "undocumented workers" why aren't they going to bat for them? If they truly cared about these immigrants, why didn't they work with Bush on the comprehensive immigration legislation he wanted?
  
  At least by building that fence we can figure out where these folks will likely try to enter next, and hopfully keep the worst of the worst from coming here and messing it all up for everyone else.
  
  We need to find a way of replenishing our workforce while filtering out the ones bent on mischief and mayhem. A fence would only be a small part of a total solution. But I think it's an important initial step. If we do nothing to stop them, they'll just keep coming.
  

• willbrich said on Oct 06, 2006....

  As you said in your post, "America is made of immigrants...". This is the right statement. I really don't want see that one day, the statement beomes "America is made of illegal immigrants".
  
  And the fence is a waste of tax-payers' money.
  

• bloc said on Oct 06, 2006....

  @curmudgeon
  "Of course, the really effective thing would be to help Mexico and the other Latin American countries improve conditions there so people won't feel the need to move."
  
  Wow, i'm agreeing with all the people I normally disagree with. I couldn't agree more curmudgeon!!!
  
  You also said, "Their own politically correct hoo-haa on diversity boxes them into inaction while immigrant communities suffer."
  
  Yoru right on again. This is the major problem with america in my eyes. Both sides spout oversimplistic rhetoric that is senseless. They paint themselves into a corner from which they can't do anything.
  
  @bordy and sean
  are you guys still in the marines? Is that why your in San Diego? I'm about an hour and a half north of you guys.
  

• Dr_Vesalius said on Oct 06, 2006....

  Sean, I have an issue with some of what you said. I agree that the fence is pointless. If illegals want to get in the the US, they will. I don't wants illegals in this country, but I think they best way to work around the problem is to have practical immigration policies. This war against terrorism is turning the US into Nazi Germany.
  
  That being said, legal residents of the US should be free to express their religion. If someone believes that it is necessary to wear a hijab to show respect to God/Allah, that person should not be precluded from doing so.
  
  You say "we don't think it looks profesional." But you are generalizing. We is actually you, and other small-minded people. If you had true tolerance for others, you would not care if a man is wearing a yarmulke or a woman is wearing a hijab.
  

• Bordy said on Oct 06, 2006....

  no, Bloc, we got out... I knwo I got out about a year and a half ago, and am back east (finally)... not sure when SR got out, but he was a dirty boot, so I know it was after me. bwahaha.
  
  And Curmudgeon... quality post man, seriously. I might need to go read through your stuff.
  

• missb said on Oct 06, 2006....

  Sean,
  My bad. What I meant was what's your stand on 'illegal immigrants'. I have edited my post. And sorry if you feel offended. That's good for a change :) And if I'm ever gonna migrate, trust me, I'll speak the language.
  
  Totally_cd,
  Yes, we can't really blame them for wanting to look for greener pasture (or atleast they think so) and to migrate. Although I find it odd that Indonesia as the 4th most populous country has a low rate of emigration :/
  
  Bordy,
  LOL...it's ok to rant :) And I agree. I think it's not wrong to try and build a fence. You have doors and locks to your house. It's the same thing.
  
  RollingC,
  The fence does cost a lot of money. Maybe it's a start. Although I don't think it would actually stop the people from trying. I agree with the legal process. They should try to do it properly :)
  

• Bordy said on Oct 06, 2006....

  And I think that is what is at the root of the argument anyway... except for incredibly radical isolationists. This isn't about accepting new people and new cultures into our society (that is why I get mad at the "America was founded by immigrants nonsense) but about doing it legally, and not causing an economic strain.
  
  Bring em all, welcome em home, but get yer goddamn paperwork first, neh?
  

• bloc said on Oct 06, 2006....

  @bordy
  "Bring em all, welcome em home, but get yer goddamn paperwork first"
  
  The problem I have with this is that I don't think we can practically stop illegal immigration unless the living conditions in their home countries improve. We can get frustrated all we want but we may as well be shouting at the moon.
  

• bloc said on Oct 06, 2006....

  @bordy and sean
  I got out about 10 years ago and am SO happy I made that decision. One of my friends reupped then went into the guard after his second enlistment was up (he would have reupped again, but they wouldn't send change his orders to go to korea so he got out). Boy was staying in the guard a mistake. He just recently got back from a deployment in Kosovo that was over a year long!
  
  My advice is to take full advantage of your GI Bill :) Of all my army friends that I keep in touch with I'm the only one that used my GI Bill to go to a University. Let's just say that I'm doing much better than the rest of them and I have NO college loans to pay off. (It helps that college in CA is cheaper than a lot of other states)
  

• Bordy said on Oct 06, 2006....

  I am using my GI Bill right now... to pay my mortgage
  

• bloc said on Oct 06, 2006....

  haha, well you have to be going to school to get it.
  

• Bordy said on Oct 06, 2006....

  I am... even if it is a crappy little podunk community college to correct my mistakes from Penn State. lol. Government paying for school twice!
  

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 06, 2006....

  @Bloc: Where do you live at, oddly I'm about an hour and a half north of San Diego as well. A place called the Inland Empire.
  
  @Everybody else: We seem mostly to see eye to eye
  
  @Miss: The only reason I called you on that single word is so often that word seems to dissapear when people are discussing immigration. Hell we all saw it when the day without an Illegal became a day without a Mexican. I know for a fact that most of the children who took that day off were legal, hell most of them probably had legal parents as well. We can't win this until the legal immigrants have separated themsevles from the illegals. Kinda like moderate muslims from radicals. . .
  

• bloc said on Oct 06, 2006....

  @sean
  I live in the san fernando valley.
  

• missb said on Oct 06, 2006....

  Curmudgeon,
  Agree. Agreed. Agreed. Good points :)
  
  Willbrich,
  LOL....yeah, that'd be funny if the statement changed :)
  
  Dr_Vesalius,
  I agree with you. I think religious expression should be tolerated. But it has to work equally. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhist, Hindu and all other religions that is acknowledged by the government.
  
  Cheers!
  

• desertsienna2 said on Oct 02, 2007....

  Hmmm...Indonesia is a moderate Muslim country so I wouldn't worry personally about safety issues with immigrants and visitors from that country.  Personally, I don't think that one can fight terrorism with war and that it's wrong to impose this force of will on Iraqis and Afghans but I was saying that five years ago...as far as the amnesty goes, I favour it and it is good for business and the economy.  The government should be able to detain and deport anyone who engages in drug trafficking, carries an infectious disease that can't be cured quickly and thoroughly, a flight risk, a security threat and anyone wanted on a warrant/convicted of arms dealing, etc.  As for anyone else, I don't see any reason to oppose an amnesty for them.

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 03, 2007....

  Well Desert if we grant them amnesty not only will more come over, but we can't detain people who are say infectous if we can't prevent them from coming into the country in the first place.  If your point is that the damage is already done then I atleast understand your stance.

• bloc said on Oct 03, 2007....

  @sean
  you lost me. the disease angle is a red herring. It's a fear tactic trumped up by the nutty wingers.
  
  "Well Desert if we grant them amnesty not only will more come over"
  
  I don't think your conclusion is as obvious as you assume.
  
  "but we can't detain people who are say infectous if we can't prevent them from coming into the country in the first place."
  
  Did you make a typo or something? Preventing someone from coming here has no bearing on our ability to detain someone that is here.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 04, 2007....

  It is a red herring.  Sort of.  It's a legit thing to add onto the list of things to be considered.  There are diseases that simply don't exist in the United STates that do in other countries.  But it's not and should never be the primary source of the debate.
   
  If we grant them amnesty more will come seems to be terribly obvious.  Plus it happened the last time we granted amnesty in the 80's.  Now of course there is no way of knowing.  Maybe they are only here because they like the thrill of being illegal and if we grant them amnesty they will all get bored and return to their country of origin.  Obviously we don't and can't know what will happen in the future, we can only make guesses based on what we see and what we think.
   
  If we can't control who is and who isn't entering the country how exactly are we supposed to have any kind of control over isolating people with infectous diseases PRIOR to them infecting other people which is obviously the point.  I mean if your claim is that just because we can't stop (hypothetically) the man with super flu from entering the United States we can always pull an E.T. and tent there house and lock them in and barring that we can pull Resident Evil/The Stand and quarantine the entire city.
   
  I mean the truth is that it is silly to be that worried about it.  Specially when they could be smuggling weapons :-P

• bloc said on Oct 04, 2007....

  "If we grant them amnesty more will come seems to be terribly obvious."
  
  Their lives suck so bad in their countries that I don't think amnesty changes the equation much.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 04, 2007....

  I'm imagining that the fear of getting caught deters at least some of them.  Though I could be wrong on that.

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