• ALIENated said 13 days ago....

  But will the Senate OK it? I doubt it after the uproar that comes about during the next couple of days.

• D6fer said 13 days ago....

  They are clearly not listening to the people......it may be too late......these radicals that have control of our congress and white house are on a kamikaze mission hell bent on bringing in socialism.
  

• andycox said 12 days ago....

  So, D6fer, how exactly does your health care bill constitute 'socialism'? And what have you to say to the 46.3 million of your fellow-Americans who lack insurance cover? Just interested.

• Twylarants said 12 days ago....

  Then cover the uninsured and leave the rest of us alone.

• beyondtheveil said 12 days ago....

  I commented on alien's post that I have no idea what the bill says - and can't find out. 

• ALIENated said 12 days ago....

  This legislation is not likely to help those 46 million.

  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJU5kC3UDPaw

  And it makes things more complicated. Insurance has complicated the healthcare system. It needs to be simplified and prices need to be controlled and that is about all, not further complicated by the injection of thousands of beurocrats and more government agencies thrown into the system. Democrats are just trying to create more government jobs for thier drones, the people who vote for them. This is simply the culmination of the mess FDR started and people like LBJ helped along with things like Medicaid. You would think that Medicaid would have taught us a lesson, but Democrats are incapable of learning from the past, so they are destined to make the same mistakes over and over.

• sheltercrow said 12 days ago....

  Since when is a law that forces people to purchase something from a capitalist market system socialist?
  
  Call it what it is. A good old fashion corporate monopoly marketed as 'good for all.' Boss Tweed, grifter extraordinaire, would envy such a deal.

• curmudgeon said 12 days ago....

  andy - many of the 46 million (a number that in itself may be suspect) might not even want insurance. They may want to make a calculated risk on the basis of their youth and relative health and wait until they are in career positions that fully cover them. there is not one iota of evidence to support the notion that these folks are the ones responsible for escalating medical costs, yet these are the folks obama and company wish to bully into buying insurance.
  
  young voters in america need to know that by electing this cretin, they have guaranteed themselves an inability to garner any wealth whatsoever over the coming decades. they are the ones who, taking low-paying positions in order to climb the career ladder, will now have to shell out some extra 15% of their total discretionary spending from their own meager incomes to pay for other people's health insurance. moreover, as they climb the ladder, the larger a chunk the government will take out! for those who don't climb, well, they will have to satisfy themselves on instant noodles and hot dogs well out of their college years. guess what, mom and dad, the kids are coming to live with you until they're forty, thanks to good ol' barry and his merry band of leftist mules! this law is hardly fair and may in the end not even pass constitutional muster.
  
  The good news is that if the Republicans win back the House and/or Senate in 2010, this whole new crappy legislation can and likely will be either repealed or be effectively repealed through shortages in funding the law's enforcement.
  
  Unemployment is at 10% and here are the libs forcing people to spend more on insurance they may not even want or feel they need.
  

• stopmediabias said 11 days ago....

  It is not 46 million it is more like 12 million and uninsured does not mean totally without healthcare. 

  I think it will be a miracle if this gets through the Senate because once the outcry comes from this Saturday night debacle a lot of these Senators are going to be looking at New Jersery and Virginia and thinking about 2010.

  This bill is a disaster and if it does get passed then the era of Obama liberalism is going to be shortlived because it creates over 100 new government agencies, in the long run is going to raise taxes on everyone who pays them, and it forces people to buy insurance or get fined.  Worst of all it forces private companies to do things that will either hurt them or put them out of business.

  This bill wasn't about healthcare, this bill is a powergrab.  These libs see the power of raising money for schools in campaigns.  People love to hear a politician talk about dumping vast sums of money into "education."  Next they will be dumping vast sums into healthcare.   

• bloc said 6 days ago....

  most polls show that a majority of people are for reform and are for something like medicare for all.

• sheltercrow said 6 days ago....

  curmudgeon: How disingenuous. Your head is stuck so far up your GOP ass you relieve us all of the history of republican years! There is little difference between your zombie banter and alien's idiocy except his excessive commie hyperbole.

• ALIENated said 6 days ago....

  Most Democracies fail once people figure out they can vote themselves things like "free" healthcare. I would agree that most want reform, but this Democrat / Socialist pile of crap is not it. It is simply a 2000 page mumbo jumbo power grab, as SMB says. Most everyone has figured that out. Even sensible Democrats are beginning to figure that out. The question is: are they willing to give up their seats to back it? I figure it is planned to fail by just enough that they can say the messiah tried, but the evil Republicans thwarted his efforts. Whether it passes or fails, Democrats / Socialists have shown their hand (power grabbing loonies) once again. The liberal way is a losing proposition and Socialism is an even worse proposition. If the government wants to do something, I say ban all health insurance and impose wage and price controls. Train qualified doctors and nurses for free to make sure enough get in the biz. The savings in administrative bullcrap would probably be phenominal. No more doctor liability insurance either. If a doctor fucks up, the patient gets a reasonable settlement and the doctor is expelled. And stop trying to control us with bigger and bigger government. Stop trying to create more government jobs in order to buy votes for your party. Wake up guys and smell the coffee. Why would you trust a bigger and bigger Democrat-run government any more than you would trust a bigger and bigger Republican-run government. The key part of that phrase is bigger and bigger government, which is not good no matter who is in the driver's seat. You know good and well that you only agree with either party on a handful of issues, not all.

• sheltercrow said 6 days ago....

  ALIENated: There is one thing that is always missing from all your's, stopmediabias's and curmudgeon's comments. Credible, verifiable facts that support your assertions.
  
  Till then you three are simply the local loonies that give the site color.

• ALIENated said 6 days ago....

  Did anyone hear that? It sounded like bull crap hitting the floor. I suppose I am just hearing things.

• robbo203 said 5 days ago....

  6fer said 7 days ago....

  They are clearly not listening to the people......it may be too late......these radicals that have control of our congress and white house are on a kamikaze mission hell bent on bringing in socialism.
  
  Yes I too would like to know what the hell all his has got to do with socialism.  Socialism has got nohing to do wih the state running our lives.  That is state capitalism. Socialists want a society wihout a state and wihout a market.  Anything less has got bugger all to do with socialism.  The democrats are just a bunch of reformists who want to run capitalism in one particular way as opposed to another.  The reality is that modern capitalism cannot possibly be run without significant regulatory state intervention despite what the neoliberal neanderthals claim.  But this is a problem for the pro-capitalists to grapple with, not genuine socialists.  We want something that goes way beyond the limited and cramping vision of a state run capitalism.
  

• sheltercrow said 5 days ago....

  Here is an example of how our resident wing-nut's 'socialism/communism' works. From 'In House, Many Spoke With One Voice: Lobbyists:’
  
  
  In the official record of the historic House debate on overhauling health care, the speeches of many lawmakers echo with similarities. Often, that was no accident.
  
  Statements by more than a dozen lawmakers were ghostwritten, in whole or in part, by Washington lobbyists working for Genentech, one of the world’s largest biotechnology companies.
  
  E-mail messages obtained by The New York Times show that the lobbyists drafted one statement for Democrats and another for Republicans.
  
  The lobbyists, employed by Genentech and by two Washington law firms, were remarkably successful in getting the statements printed in the Congressional Record under the names of different members of Congress.
  
  Genentech, a subsidiary of the Swiss drug giant Roche, estimates that 42 House members picked up some of its talking points — 22 Republicans and 20 Democrats, an unusual bipartisan coup for lobbyists.
  
  
  Corporate 'socialism/communism' is certainly working for Genentech.
  
  Corporations of the World, Unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains!

• stopmediabias said 4 days ago....

  rob-We here in America see the government stepping further into places they don't belong as stepping closer to other failed socialisms around the world.  It may not fit into the garden variety definition of socialism but that is how we see it.  We want less government and believe the problems with our healthcare system can be fixed better with less government. 

  If any halfwit Democrat or Republican say they want this then the polls are not asking the right questions.  They should be asking questions like: Do you want to pay higher taxes, long waits, asking some government agency a question about your healthcare, private industries run out of business, etc etc etc

• Twylarants said 4 days ago....

  It's the big picture conservatives object to, not the definition of socialism or the particular kind of socialist Obama is.
  It's not the idea of health care for everyone, it's the hidden agenda...not so hidden, actually...at the core of it.
  Here's a paragraph from an interesting article I came across:
  

  Make Health Care your flagship policy issue and build your entire organizing strategy around it.

  In November of 2007, SEIU held a joint public session , “High Road Health Care Charrette“, at their headquarters in Washington, D.C.  A collaborative effort of SEIU, the Sloan Foundation’s Industry Studies Program, and the Center on Wisconsin Strategy (also a partner of Green for All and the Apollo Alliance), the joint session was a discussion on restructuring the health care industry to move more of the private insurance market functions into the government sector, arguing that doing so would increase productivity and drive down cost.  But by productivity and cost, SEIU meant their own – increasing the government and health care sectors adds more SEIU members, and transfers the expense of their health and retirement benefits from their own books to the state and federal government instead.

  And here's the site, if you want to read more.
  

  
  

• curmudgeon said 4 days ago....

  Shelter - I may indeed be all the things you say, but at least I am not a brainless serial linker. Moreover, I do not see how anyone could consider one who wishes government to do everything for him from funding his retirement to wiping his ass in a hospital as possessing even a modicum of intelligence and independent thought.
  
  Robbo - if you have any links to your vision of socialism, I'd love to read them. How is your definition of socialism different from, say, anarchism?
  

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  curmudgeon: I the real world, as concerns evidence, there is a concept that involves 'susceptible of verification.' If you intentionally fling out an assertion in a debate that is not susceptible of verification it is merely an uninformed opinion of a 'brainless' zombie.
  
  You my friend, however articulate you may be, are, more often than not, a brainless zombie.

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  Twylarants: Before the launching of Big Government, Andrew Breitbart's highest profile venue was as an editor for the Drudge Report. Breitbart described himself as "Matt Drudge’s bitch."
  
  Enough said?

• stopmediabias said 4 days ago....

  Now I want everyone to please check out the Drudge Report, which is a compilation of different news stories from different news sources.  Matt Drudge happens to be a conservative but the posted stories range all over the politcal spectrum.

  Andrew Breitbart, also a conservative has a similar website as Drudge, which posts different news stories from all over the politcal spectrum.

  Skittlecrow discredits the Drudge Report when it is not a conservative site or thinktank or any such thing, it is just a mix of different stories.  I have even asked him to go to the Drudge Report and see for himself but he won't because it is easier to whine about conservatives then to actually address the point Twylarants was making. 

  Skittle has this anything nutty leftwing must be good and anything even remotely leaning to the right must be the scourge of the world, attitude.

  List all the problems with our healthcare system then put Obama-care right next to it and honestly ask the question, is this the best solution?

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  stopmediabias: I can see no reason whatever to patronize a website that does not fact-check it's content.
  
  I fully understand why the Drudge Report - the Internet version of the National Enquirer - is one of your favorite sources.
  
  It allows you claim a source when you broadcast your idiotic world view. No matter that the source is, in fact, a useless Internet broad sheet which itself claims not to be involved in actual journalism.

• Twylarants said 4 days ago....

  And?  You're saying none of the story about SEIU is true? None of it? Nothing reported by Drudge and Breitbart is ever true, they just make it all up?
  Nothing reported by any conservative columnist or written by any conservative blogger anywhere, on the Internet, in newspapers, on radio and tv, is true, yet every link you provide should be taken as gospel?
  So, pretty much, only you know exactly what's going on in this country, yeah?
  Huh. Well, I'll be damned. Good to know.
  

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  An interesting view of Andrew Breitbart from James Edwards that holds no punches...
  
  
  The conservative blogosphere is abuzz today over The Next Big Thing – the new website, Big Hollywood, which just launched. It’s going to be the voice of “conservative” Hollywood types, as well as those who write about it. It was founded by Andrew Breitbart, who refers to himself as “the bitch” of homosexual “conservative” Matt Drudge. And to give you an idea of just how “conservative” Andrew Breitbart is, he’s the guy who designed and set up HuffingtonPost.com, the most popular far left liberal website on the internet. I’m sure he was paid well for designing the website, and what are principles when it comes to cold hard cash? He also runs Breitbart News and Breitbart TV, two websites which link to “conservative” news stories and videos. He says his new site has “the modest goal of changing Hollywood.”
  
  Yeah, sure it does.
  
  I just spent some time perusing Big Hollywood, and if it were a movie, it would be a straight to video release starring Carrot Top and Gary Coleman. The goal isn’t to change Hollywood. It’s to get a lot of traffic and keep conservatives spinning their wheels by pretending to be about changing Hollywood, while being scrupulously careful to never do anything that would remotely disturb the powers that be in Hollywood, let alone bring about any change.

• Twylarants said 4 days ago....

  Ok, that clears it up. Breitbart is trying to make money.
  I now see the error of my conservative ways.
  

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  Twylarants: What I'm saying is, to repeat, I can see no reason whatever to patronize a website that does not fact-check it's content. Neither Breitbart nor Drudge cares what the actual content is. They care only about the traffic to their websites and how much revenue can be had with that traffic.
  
  Fools like stopmediabias bite for it every time hoping no one will catch on.
  
  It's always been puzzling why a user with the moniker 'stopmediabias' would deal in such shameless for-profit drivel. Until you realize the same 'stopmediabias' is nothing more than a republican shill looking to convince, with whatever garbage they can pass off, from any source.
  
  Et tu, Brute?
  

• curmudgeon said 4 days ago....

  Shelter - better a brainless zombie than a witless, multi-alt, profligate linker.

• curmudgeon said 4 days ago....

  It is fun trading barbs with you though, shelter! :-)

• Twylarants said 4 days ago....

  The purpose of reading is to glean information, unless you read fiction, right?  So you read, you process what you've read, and you form opinions. If you read simply to be convinced, what's the use?  Just go along with the opinion du jour.
  I'm 60.  I've been conservative and opinionated more years than I care to remember. Not much shocks me anymore except this President's grab for power.
  Making money form a website sounds like a good idea to me. As long as they continue supplying me with pertinent info, I'm good with it.
  
  

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  curmudgeon: profligate? lol.
  
  As in 'completely given up to dissipation and licentiousness' or 'wildly extravagant.'

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  Twylarants: I'm 55 and have no time to read the fiction passed off as fact on the Breitbart/Drudge garbage sites. Its a matter of time invested. If I had to fact-check all the crap Drudge and Breitbart posts I would have time for little else and would gain what?
  
  I leave the UFO scandal sheets to the tinfoil hat crowd. I leave it's Internet equivalent to the same fools.
  
  I find it amusing to read some posts here that repeat the fiction found on the Drudge/Breitbart et al. sites. It only proves that the market for tinfoil will always be strong.
  
  Drudge lies alone gets some 7,000,000 hits.

• Twylarants said 4 days ago....

  So how do you feel about SEIU's influence on Obama?

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  D6fer: Here is something that will make you smile. Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

• sheltercrow said 4 days ago....

  Twylarants: SEIU's influence on Obama?
  
  Their influence is no more than any other group. The democrats have always had a ticket to all the union functions. But I think it's more a one-way street. SEIU loves Obama but my observations are that Obama is too much a centrist to make much of a difference in the lives of the rank-and-file of SEIU.
  
  Obama likes the money and support. But his policy initiatives have little real relevance to the SEIU.
  
  According to Marc Ambinder - 17 Sep 2007 - At SEIU, Obama "Rocked The House"
  
  
  he is a longtime friend of Chicago's SEIU Local 880 and worked closely with the union as an organizer and later as a state legislator.
  
  
  But consider the divergence...
  
  Obama Top Fundraiser on Wall Street - WaPo
  
  Hundreds of Taxpayers Converge on Goldman Sachs DC Headquarters - SEIU

• stopmediabias said 3 days ago....

  Shelter-You have never visited Drudge or you wouldn't say that.  You are making a mistake and you are making yourself look stupid.  Drudge doesn't lie or even offer an opinion, he only posts news sources from everywhere.  The AP, New York Times, Washington post, etc etc, there is no fact checking because he only reports the news by siting news stories.  But keep going you are just digging yourself a big hole.  Lets start fact checking some of your links :)

• ALIENated said 3 days ago....

  ... Obama is too much a centrist ...

  Yeah, skippycork needs more reason to look stupid. Anyone that thinks Obama is anywhere near the center has to have a screw loose (Bill Mayher comes to mind). The healthcare legislation is meant to buy votes from groups like the SEIU. If the government takes over healthcare, that will create thousands of jobs for SEIU members. Cash for clunkers was meant to buy auto union votes, but that backfired. People want Japanese and German cars. Not union-made crap heaps. That is the problem with Democrats / Socialists. They are too concerned with buying votes instead of doing what is good for the country in the long run. Always look for the vote-buying connection in anything Democrats do. Obama cannot even bring himself to say anything good about America, especially overseas. Ronald Reagan and George Bush could hardly go a few minutes without praising our country. Obama may have been born in America, but he sure does not act like it.

• Twylarants said 3 days ago....

  "..hide your healthcare & say your prayers cuz amnesty's coming next year..here comes amnesty here comes amnesty..." EVERYBODY SING!!!

• ALIENated said 3 days ago....

  Yep, that is the next big push to buy more votes. The question is, why are hispanic Americans willing to sell their votes for favors going to criminals? I suppose there is something to be said for all the illegals receiving amnesty and then repaying Democrats with their votes.

• sheltercrow said 3 days ago....

  stopmediabias: You are a fool. You can fact-check any of my links any time you like and you know it. I welcome the idea.
  
  As for Drudge 'there is no fact checking' because he doesn't bite the hand that feeds.

• sheltercrow said 3 days ago....

  ALIENated: Anyone who doesn't know Obama is a centrist is living in a dream world.

• sheltercrow said 3 days ago....

  Twylarants: Here is another article you and the tinfoil twins can ignore:
  
  Beck uses blatant distortions to smear SEIU as violent organization of "thugs"
  
  There's more to ignore here.

• stopmediabias said 3 days ago....

  Shelternuts-You are retarded aren't you?  Drudge posts news sources from nearly every news agency in the mainstream media from the New York Times to MSNBC.  Like I said, go to Drudge and read the long list of links that he posts his news stories from.  The only single thing you can say about Drudge is he does occasionally post misleading headlines but he does that against both Republicans and Democrats and I have found several examples of the AP and other news sources posting misleading headlines.

  ROFL!!!  You then post a "news story" from Media matters, a ultra leftwing nutcase site.  I am thinking you are either 14 or just plain retarded, or maybe both?

• sheltercrow said 3 days ago....

  stopmediabias: These interaction always seem to devolve into you defending the integrity of your primary source, a hopeless sidetrack, instead of your real problem as being a shameless republican shill.
  
  There is nothing to be gained by engaging in a sham debate with a shill.
  
  I leave you to your tinfoil collective.

• stopmediabias said 2 days ago....

  Shelter- Thank you, now I can say.........checkmate.

  And if I was a shameless Republican shill would I agree with legalizing Marijuana and be against the death penalty? 

• Twylarants said 2 days ago....

  Tinfoil what? Are you talking about conspiracy theorists?  Like the 9/11 truthers?  Yeah, I don't think so.  It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to figure out Obama's agenda, just someone with common sense. He's pretty transparent.

• ALIENated said 2 days ago....

  Is that what Obama meant by transparency?

  Wow, I am in a dream world where passing a humongous Socialist healthcare bill is centrist. la la la la la la la do dah do dah

  Shinglecow is so very, very ass toot.

• bloc said 1 day ago....

  @alien
  
  
  "Most Democracies fail once people figure out they can vote themselves things like "free" healthcare."
  
  
  This is very true, but it applies to both sides. Right now people are voting for "free" benefits while also voting for "lower taxes". We can debate where in this spectrum america should be, but I think we all have to get serious about the unsustainability of our current course. 
  
  
  Let's not forget that it was only a few years ago when Republicans were increasing spending while cutting taxes, and they controlled the whole government just as the democrats do now.

• D6fer said 1 day ago....

  bloc.....why not reduce bureaucracy? How much do you think is lost to that?

• stopmediabias said about 23 hours ago....

  Why can't they just pass healthcare reform?  Why do we have these massive bills that try push abortion on people, increase the size of government, and risk another disasterous Canadian style socialism.  If these Democrats just solve the current problems we have they could stay in power for decades, instead they are trying to create another education-esque soundbite and even if they succeed they are going to fail because Americans don't want what they are selling.

  And why do these people pass bills the same way they put Jesus on trial?

• ALIENated said about 18 hours ago....

  The problem is, we are now in a pissing contest between Democrats / Socialists and Republicans. D / S are now more into socialism than liberalism and Republicans are straying into liberalism (McCain is a perfect example). I really cannot accept the Bush Administration as a good example of a Republican administration because of the influence of the 9/11 attacks and the war on terrorists. I think it actually addled Dubya a bit. He was so taken aback by the attacks and the loss of American life on our own soil, he went off the deep end in his response. Besides, how is the war in Afghanistan any different than the war in Iraq except that we got rid of a horrible dictator in the process? The Reagan Administration is a much better example to me. But, to be realistic, too far to the left (see the USSR) OR too far to the right (see Nazi Germany) is not a good thing. We need some government involvement, but Obama is trying to enslave us to bigger and bigger government. As SMB says, they are not trying to reform, they are trying to pass their liberal agenda while they can. I would prefer the do-nothing nature of the Bush Administration to the Big Brotheresque nature of the Obama Administration so far. And you can bet your ass the healthcare legislation (IF it passes) is just the beginning. You know it and I know it. I have to question anyone's intelligence that is falling for all this crap. We are selling our freedom for the promise of "free" healthcare. We have a generation or two of citizens that barely made it through high school, people who barely know any history. People who are being told the holocost did not happen and other such garbage. I suppose it is difficult for people like that to recognize when a dictator is rising to power. But that is what is happening. The same things are happening now that have happened before. It is not to late to stop it, but time is running out.

• bloc said about 15 hours ago....

  smb and alien are living in some bizarro world. For example, canada is a single payer system, the democrats took single payer off the table by themselves at the very outset of this effort. This is a clear contradiction of both Alien and SMB's comments.
  
  
  @d6
  I'm not sure what you mean specifically.

• ALIENated said about 3 hours ago....

  Look at the forest man, not the trees. You, like most Democrats / Socialists just want your team to win at any cost. Try hard to understand what the Obama Administration is all about. We are not discussing whether Obama garbles his words, is maintaining an illegal war in Afghanistan (fuck Afghanistan), or won the presidency because of some hanging chads. We are talking about destroying our country. They must be laughing their asses off around the White House. We are like lambs being led to slaughter, as naive as the Jews headed toward the "showers". I guarantee you that, if this healthcare legislation passes, all our heads will be swimming by this time next year because of the other crap they attempt to pass. The only way Democrats / Socialists can ever get into office is to buy people's votes. They spend all their time doing just that at the expense of those who have to pay for it ... one way or the other. Consequently, our whole country suffers because of it.

• D6fer said about 3 hours ago....

  I mean don't you think that bureaucracy absorbs more dollars than is needed to fund most things?
  
  Rather than constantly taking more of people money, why not reduce the size and scope of the fed and free up those dollars lost to the black hole in Washington?
  

Comment on "House Democrats screw America....Seal own fate for big 2010 loss"

Currently tagged	politics socialism Obama Democrats liberals powergrab (Click to add tags below)
Tag this post	(Separate tags using commas, for example: New York, dating, vegetarian)
Your comment
	Comment Anonymously