• beyondtheveil said on Nov 06, 2009....

  Analysts from the very beginning  (after the 2008 crash) to now have said jobs would come back very slowly (years). I haven't seen or read one who has said differently. What really amazes me is that after bush's 700 billion bail out, what Obama has added, and last month's job loss figures, the Dow is over 10,000. It even climbed after the job loss report. 

• D6fer said on Nov 06, 2009....

  What is the dollar worth now? Just 81 cents compared to 2000....you can check it here....they have a neat little calculator.
  
  Fact is....Bush lied about the banks needing the bailout and Obama went right along with it......both I think are "one government" kinda guys and the U.S. economy is under attack......if we dont do something very soon to stop this guy....there is no hope.
  

• beyondtheveil said on Nov 06, 2009....

  d6- I read and saw on Fox (which probably means something to you) that comparing when a dollar was worth a dollar, the dollar now is worth 4 cents. After the fed slows printing money 24-7, it might not be worth 2. 

• D6fer said on Nov 06, 2009....

  yup....sad

• wombat said on Nov 06, 2009....

  Wish I could remember the numbers, but I heard today that the number of jobs that need to be "created" is an impossible number because of the jobs that have been cut back to under full-time.  Those jobs will be put back to full-time first.  And I think they said that the number of jobs that need to be "created" far out number the cut-back jobs.

  Sounds like a serious problem right out of the gate.  Unplug Grandma.  She can't work, anyway.  (being sarcastic about the health care jokes I've heard)

• D6fer said on Nov 06, 2009....

  yeah wombie....and they have been touting that productivity is up.......it has to be....people have to make up for their missing coworkers!

• ALIENated said on Nov 06, 2009....

  I am one of the statistics. I have been out of work all year and see no end in sight. I have worked in companies most of my career, but I am now looking to work for myself doing something. We have learned that we can live on much less than we used to make. That should make Obama and his friends happy. They want us all to be poor as far as I can tell. I will never understand why anyone would vote for a Democrat. I prefer Capitalism and having a job to our current trend toward Socialism and a nanny state. If they pass the healthcare legislation, we have had it. We will all be working for the government directly or indirectly. I have heard you work until April or so to pay your taxes each year. That will be more like September, if Obama has his way. I never thought I would see Americans falling for all this crap. All we have built in over 200 years wiped out by one president. It does give me more faith in the Bible than ever since Revelations seems to be unfolding before our eyes. I always thought that Revelations was pretty far out and frankly did not see it coming to pass in my lifetime, but it seems to be.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 06, 2009....

  Nothing changed except for the unemployment rates for adult men (10.7 percent) and whites (9.5 percent) increased with 190,000 non-farm jobs lost.
  
  Construction employment -62,000. Manufacturing employment -61,000. Retail trade -40,000. Health care employment +29,000.
  
  I live in a small NH town, a county seat with a population of 13,000, that's been in a depression state for some thirty years. There are literally homeless people everywhere. And it's beginning to get very scary.
  
  If it gets any worse these people will be infesting every hallway and ally. And they don't look very friendly.
  

• D6fer said on Nov 06, 2009....

  not sure where you are coming from shelter....are you saying those stats arent bad?
  
  
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 06, 2009....

  The least vulnerable group, adult white men, took it on the chin this month. It may sound crazy but when the entire sample of the latest unemployed consists of awm you know you're headed into depression territory.
  
  No offense to non-awm but these stats are horrible.

• D6fer said on Nov 06, 2009....

  ok...I get it....good point

• curmudgeon said on Nov 06, 2009....

  Just as Obama criticized Bush for distracting himself in Iraq when the "real" fight was in Afghanistan (so why is Obama dithering on the one war he DID support???), Obama is now distracting himself with healthcare when the real problem in the US is the economy and unemployment.
  
  The Dow can soar as high as it likes. These days it is due to nothing but paper being shoved back and forth, with execs still reaping huge bonuses at investor expense. So long as jobs continue to be lost, the US will be in big trouble. I guess the upside is that New York City and State may do better than expected as far as tax revenue goes.
  
  Think of it this way - the Democrats want to force you to buy insurance or pay a fine. Well gee, assholes, perhaps you would like to make sure every American has a job before you force them to make such huge purchases?
  
  
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 06, 2009....

  Scary stories:
  
  Prediction: Jobless rate hits 10.2 percent and is headed higher... well into next year.
  
  Reuters: Millions of American job-hunters risk permanent unemployment as industries undergo radical change and some skills become irrelevant in the wake of the worst U.S. economic recession in 70 years.
  
  economyincisis.org: To compound our problems, we have sold 16,613 of our best companies in the last 30 years to foreign interests. See the percentage of whole industries that are foreign-owned and see the debt we owe to foreigners. With the approximate $6 trillion convertible reserve dollars (economic bullets) that China, Japan, and Arab countries now have, that they earned through their balance of trade surpluses with us, we (unbeknownst to most of us) are inextricably heading toward colonial status, owned, controlled and managed by our new colonial masters.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 06, 2009....

  curmudgeon: Think of it this way - If there had been no Iraq or Afghanistan war we would have an extra trillion or two to throw at the unemployment problem. And maybe another trillion for assholes to waste on private health insurance.

• curmudgeon said 13 days ago....

  If there had been no Iraq or Afghanistan war we would still have Osama bin Laden plotting his attacks with support from the Taliban and Pakistan, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad bullying Israel and Saddam Hussein spewing his hatred and highlighting American impotence in the Middle East. Who knows maybe Ghadaffi might have come back into the game instead of finally coming to terms (of sorts) with the West.
  
  Perhaps you recall the falloff in international tourism to the US just after WTC II. A typical liberal milquetoast response to 9 11 would very likely have undermined international investment (investment being the surest sign of confidence in our stability and leadership) in the US, thus killing the so-called surplus and denying sufficient funds for additional employment, nanny-state health care and so on. Unemployment under Bush was not nearly as high  - even though he fought through two recessions - as it is with just ten months of Obama and his economic stimulus, cash for clunkers, devaluing the dollar, his yet to begin green agenda, "infrastructure" spending, and this coming health care disaster.
  

• stopmediabias said 13 days ago....

  Shelter you seem to overlook the cost of containment, the cost of another terrorist attack, the billions the Democrats pissed away on the stimulus pet projects, the zillions pissed away on global warming nonsense.  Getting rid of Adolf Arab junior was worth every penny.

• sheltercrow said 13 days ago....

  curmudgeon: What you may not have noticed is that bin Laden is presumed dead by most reputable sources.
  
  Mahmoud [Ahmadinejad] hasn't changed. And 'bullying Israel' and the 'Ghadaffi' threat have always been mere neo-con fantasy.

• sheltercrow said 13 days ago....

  stopmediabias: Stop reading drudge and maybe you may be recognized as something besides a right-wing zombie. A condition that clearly holds for many a commenter here.

• ALIENated said 13 days ago....

  ... Obama is now distracting himself with healthcare when the real problem in the US is the economy and unemployment ...

  His main goal IS to destroy our economy and take over everything (like the healthcare system, banks, auto makers) in order to move us toward Socialism (the first step to Communism). There is only one mindless zombie here and I think we all know who that is. If I could not see what is right in front of me, I would not be slinging mud around.

• sheltercrow said 13 days ago....

  The Alien has spoken. Do I need the tinfoil hat for that one too?

• ALIENated said 12 days ago....

  ha ha ha. Prove me wrong, maim. The fact that you ignore all that is before you negates any credibility you may think you have. People are slowly realizing that all the warnings they were hearing this time last year are coming true. The healthcare scam just passed the House, when it should not have even been an issue given our economic situation. I doubt it will pass in the Senate (at least I pray it will not), but if it does, we are witnessing the end of America as we know it. If you think a tinfoil hat will improve your powers of reasoning, your ability to know truth when you see it or hear it, by all means ... be my guest. Then you will look like you usually sound -- goofy.

• sheltercrow said 12 days ago....

  Tell me alien, are there any other phrases in your wing-nut lexicon that reference items other than socialism and communism? You're as useful as a broken eight-track tape machine.
  

• ALIENated said 12 days ago....

  Do tape machines have the last laugh? I know I will. And it may come sooner than anyone thinks. However, it will be a bitter sweet I told you so laughter. Why do you think so many visionaries and even the Holy Bible warned us of these times we are in? Because it was not a hard call. Everything is born, and grows, and dies. America is now in that last phase. I know it and you know it, if you can read the signs of the times. As badly as you would like for Obama to be the messiah, he is not and never will be. He is an inexperienced goof that wants to make his mark on history by being the one that wipes out our current way of life in America. If you cannot see that, that is your problem not mine. My point is not about Republicans and Democrats, it is about a new animal all together and I think you know what that is. Obama is counting on people like you ... smart guys who are too smart to understand what he is doing. No matter how bad George Dubya Bush might have been, that does not mean Obama is not twice as bad. He was just the alternative that fooled all of you. It is like Bush tried to say ... fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. It is sad that so many were fooled last November. It is even sadder that many of them are continuing to be fooled even though many are waking up. Your zombie statements mean nothing to me because it is obvious to the people who actually are smart who the real zombies are ... the people who are still mesmerized by our Socialist / Communist president. (Sorry my wing-nut lexicon had no other words for what he is.)

• stopmediabias said 12 days ago....

  Thank you Shelter, your "stop reading Drudge" proves you are a total moron.

• SeanRenaud said 8 days ago....

  1st.  Holy shit.  Sheltercrow made several points.  One of which was acknowledged by D6fer.  I just feel like I wandered into a room and Reverend Wright and Hitler and playing pattycake.

  Moving right along I don't understand why so many people (on both sides) can't separate the War in Afghanistan which was right and necessary and may still be necessary though just like Iraq I think we're getting close to when we need to let them handle their own shit.  And the Iraq War which was fought almost on a whim and a bad one at that.  Everyone is aware that they are completely separate wars with only the loosest of imaginary ties.  I mean hell Saddam wasn't even a real Muslim!  That's why Al Qaeda hated him cus he was a worse infidel in their eyes than any of us.  At least we don't PRETEND to be Muslims.

  Anyone claiming Obama is here to destroy the United States is just as stupid as all the people who claimed Bush was going to use the war to bypass the 2008 elections (don't pretend ya'll don't remember) it'll help if people will stop acting like complete morons.

  Also since apparently I don't say it enough.  UHC is something this country needs.  Obama is clearly not competent enough to handle something as complex as UHC.

• ALIENated said 7 days ago....

  Obama is not here to destroy the United States. He is here to destroy our form of government. He is a Socialist, at best, and more likely a Communist at heart. The is the whole problem. Conservatives think he is a liberal. Liberals think he is a conservative. He is neither ... he is a Socialist. However, that may never be proven since people are starting to come out of the daze they were in last fall now that we are finding out what his CHANGE really meant. Stimulus to buy votes, bailouts to take over companies, now trying to hijacking our healthcare system and one fifth of our economy, running down America at every stop, cuddling with our enemies. If he is not a Socialist, we just have a semantics problem (I know our friend andycox does). Obama is kind of like what Stalin and Chairman Mao were, whatever that was called.

• SeanRenaud said 7 days ago....

  I can understand a basic blind faith that our government is great and has no need of destruction.  I've actually pointed out (at least halfway) and maybe I'll start over and complete one day why I think that it is time to seriously re-evaluate the Bill of Rights.  Half are obsolete and another two or three use language so archaic to be dangerous.  (Again I've never heard you say you think Paris Hilton should be ALLOWED to purchase nuclear missiles.  Which the 2nd amendment allows.  I'm all for gun rights but that shit needs to be rewritten instead of logicked)

  Obama is liberal.  Not sure he's as far left as people like to pretend (if he was marijuana and gay marriage would be getting at least half the attention that UHC is) he is but still he's liberal.  Any liberal who thinks he's conservative is a retard.

  Bush did start the bailouts.  A lot of people thought and think they were necessary.  The funny thing his history won't really tell us.  The only example we have is obsolete because seventy years ago when the government did (for years) what the Republicans (of today) would want which was nothing it didn't work.  The New Deal did and then WW2 came along and changed the game.

  I don't agree that admitting mistakes is the same as running yourself down.  And to a very real extent Obama IS America.  I believe that real men man up when they are wrong, admit they were wrong, make amends and go forward.  For too long America's policy has been that America can't be wrong by defintion of being American.

  I won't debate if he's a socialist.  He is a bit socialist for my tastes but I don't think he can do enough damage to matter and I think there are lots of things that need to be fixed.  For example I think we need to either A) work towards a coherent functional UHC or B) stop treating the uninsured and LET THEM DIE.  We cannot stick with this policy of we won't give you early treatment that would cost hundreds or thousands but we will spend tens of thousands later.  It makes no sense.  Either grab a hold of your balls and say "I'm a capitalist and each man gets what he earns and if you can't afford health care you die"  OR "humans are supposed to take care of each other and this is something that we all support"  I really don't care which it is but Republicans are clearly conflicted.  Which is ultimately why they will lose this fight.

• ALIENated said 7 days ago....

  Any liberal who thinks [Obama] is conservative is a retard.

  That would be Bill Maher. So, on that, we agree.

  The fight is not about whether we need healthcare reform or improvement. It is about how we go about it. That is where Republicans get off, at the intersection of Common Sense and Liberal Big Government Expansion. This whole deal is like so many other liberal / Democrat actions. They pretend to fix a problem and simply create more problems, which they later say they are going to fix. Republicans are more likely to let the water seek its own level, let the free market fix itself with maybe some light rules and regulations. If it was up to Republicans, Americans would be buying oil and oil products made in America. Republicans are more interested in protecting us and insuring our rights. Democrats are more interested in pacifically giving in to our enemies and doing away with our individual rights. Democrats want to grow government so that they have more power over us in order to MAKE us accept creepy things like same sex marriage and abortion. I doubt that anyone would sell Paris a nuke, but I do not want the government disarming us all. I have no guns, but the government does not know that.

• SeanRenaud said 7 days ago....

  Oh cut the bullshit.  Republicans worship the market the same way the worship God and do what it says regardless of country.  Say what you want about Unions it's still Republicans who ship jobs over seas.  Between 1994 and 2006 Republicans held the Congress, between 2000-2006 they held both the White House and the Congress.

  I know you still want to believe that this current crisis is the fault of an oversized government but it's not.  Just like in 1932 its the result of a lack of government.  Now government does not HAVE to take the place of actual businesses.  We could more than likely let UPS and FEDex take over for the USPS and after a little bit of wrestling they'd figure it out.  I'm not sure how they'd figure out who was taking the letters from the mail box but I'm sure they'd figure it quick enough.  Same goes for schools and building roads and all the other things the government does.  (Save miliatry.  Call me old fashioned but I kinda want my military brainwashed to love and die for my country not collect a paycheck)  But the government has to set rules for what can and cannot happen and Republicans almost always try to fall back to anything goes rules.

• stopmediabias said 7 days ago....

  Sean-You are delusional.  Republicans don't ship jobs overseas they keep them here by letting people keep the money they earn instead of the Democrat tax into oblivian which is what really ships jobs overseas.

  And you can't tell me that we have a healthcare system that cost too much and doesn't work well for about 12 to 15 million Americans and the solution is a massive government entitlement that creates over 100 new government agencies and guts medicare along with increases taxes on nearly everyone that pays them.  Along with this we pass it on Saturday night?! 

  I thought we put this USPS thing to rest.  It is a bad and stupid comparison.  Figuring out how to bring a package or a letter from point A to point B is nothing compared to the government trying to take a large portion of the healthcare industry under its control.  Plus the USPS, our schools, and our roads are classic examples of why the government should not meddle in the private sector.  Why the fuck are we paying taxes for the USPS when we can just get the private sector to do a much better job? 

  We have an economy/jobs crisis.  Not a gay marriage, global warming, GITMO, healthcare crisis.  These people need to get with the program and starting listening to the people that put them in power. 

• SeanRenaud said 6 days ago....

   Republicans don't ship jobs overseas they keep them here by letting people keep the money they earn instead of the Democrat tax into oblivian which is what really ships jobs overseas.

  This boreders statement borders on the insane.  You conservatives spent the entire beginning of this year talking about how the UAW was the reason why the US car companies got squashed. 

  Have you not been reading ANYTHING I've said about the UHC bill that OBama has.  It sucks.

  I'm not sure we could get the private sector to do a better job than the USPS to be perfectly frank.  Not without allowing monopolies which would drive up prices.  The idea that our schools and roads are poor having anything to do with socialism is stupid.  I mean really stupid.  Our schools aren't actually that bad.  They are bad by comparison to the rest of the world. . .where ALL the schools are socialized instead of having a choice like here.  Our schools don't suck, our students suck and our students suck because our culture doesn't look highly on education.

  The economy is getting better.  We're officially out of the recession if I'm not mistaken.  Jobs is and will always be a lagging indicator.  You can nudge it but shy of a New Deal there really isn't much the government can do about it and the things he SHOULD be doing he can't cus Bush fucked up.  OBama SHOULD be lowering taxes so people can keep more money.  He should also be hiring people to handle infrastructure jobs and other shit to get people employed.  But Bush cut taxes (when he should have raised them.)  So Obama's hands are tied on that. 

• ALIENated said 6 days ago....

  The economy is getting better ...

  You are delusional. What is Obama going to say? The truth? Not likely.

• ALIENated said 6 days ago....

  Unions were good back in the day, but have outlived their usefulness. They are probably a big reason we have an illegal immigrant problem (they work for cheap) and why jobs are being shipped to other countries (where they work for cheap).

• SeanRenaud said 6 days ago....

  The econony is getting better.  To say anything else is dishonest.  Stock Market up.  Two consecutive quarters of growth?  That too.  It's not BACK by any means but clearly it's recovering.

  Unions have outlived their usefulness.  That's a no brainer.  HOWEVER that doesn't excuse the behavior on the right with the shipping overseas for cheaper labor.  We could just as easily stick to what we'd always done and tariff outside goods enough to protect US workers.

  As far as illegals go Unions really don't have much to do with that.  Illegals come because MOST of the time the US economy has enough money that there are things we won't do but still need doing.  Sure we could up the price until someone was willing to do it but when unemployment is below 4% you'd have a hard time convincing anybody to mow lawns.

• D6fer said 6 days ago....

  the two quarters of growth indicate the growth of government.....not in the private sector.....and the dollar is tanking so what is the true value of the stock market?
  
  

• SeanRenaud said 6 days ago....

  If you can prove that the two quarters are government growth (which without even researching I can tell are bullshit)  then so be it.  I mean since the stock market is up nearly 50% for the year I think you've got a hard path to prove which is why I'm not even trying to look at it. And the dollar is tanking?  Can you show me how much it's lost year over year?  (I'll even be nice and pretend OBama was president in say August of 08 instead January of 09.

• D6fer said 5 days ago....

  Third quarter 'growth' was largely driven by a 23% increase in residential construction (the largest quarterly increase since 1986) and a 3.1% increase in consumer spending, which included a 22% jump in durable goods purchases – mostly automobiles – and 2.3% gain in government spending. Since the increase in consumption outpaced the increase in production, the trade deficit expanded, reversing the positive trend for most of 2008 and 2009. Because the increase in spending outpaced the increase in incomes, the savings rate plunged from 4.9% in the prior quarter to 3.3%. source
  
  Read em and weep sucker!
  
  How's that hope and change workin for ya?
  

• sheltercrow said 5 days ago....

  My favorite living comic:
  
  
  Allow me to explain how our federal government works. To begin with, by the federal government I mean Democrats and Republicans working together. And the only thing dumber than a Democrat or a Republican is when those pr*cks work together. You see, in our two-party system, the Democrats are the party of no ideas and the Republicans are the party of bad ideas.
  
  It usually goes something like this. A Republican will stand up in Congress and say, "I've got a really bad idea." And a Democrat will immediately jump to his feet and declare, "And I'm gonna make it sh*ttier."
  
  - Lewis Black, Nothing's Sacred
  
  
  
  

• D6fer said 5 days ago....

  jeez....i think that is the most sane thing I've ever seen you post!
  
  almost right....but better.....I think government works best when the parties can't get anything done......at least they are not fucking things up further! (Bailout and stimulus good examples)
  

• ALIENated said 4 days ago....

  Ha ha ha. The new "both parties are bad" routine. Liberals destine to become Independents or Republicans (probably because they are getting older and wiser) cannot bear to admit that Democrats (and liberal ideas) are crap, and they have been falling for it. So now they lump Democrats and Republicans together. Just what Obama likes, since he is neither (he is a Socialist / Communist). Plus, I would say the Democrats are the ones with stupid ideas and the Republicans are the ones with no ideas (they just want government to leave us alone). Republicans usually stay busy cleaning up the mess Democrats just made. No action is better than stupid actions in my humble opinion.

• SeanRenaud said 4 days ago....

  It doesn't matter where the growth was D6.  Just like on the other end of the spectrum Republicans kept singing we're not a a recession because Christmas saved us from three straight quarters so even though the resession actually started in hearly 2008 people stuck to the technical definition for a long as it would hold water.

• ALIENated said 4 days ago....

  Either way, do you really lay any of the credit on Obama? Really? GM just reported a $1.2 billion third quarter loss. Does Obama get credit for that? I think any advances we see will be in spite of bad policy and the usual Democrat tax hikes. The Democrats throw together a majority based on social misfits and somehow believe that that translates into knowing something about economics. Then they prove day after day that they know nothing ... about social issues OR economics. If they knew anything, they would not be trying to pass their healthcare pile of crap.

• SeanRenaud said 4 days ago....

  No.  Very little if any of the credit is actually Obama's.  Most of what is happening now is the final round of Bush policies.  OBama hasn't actually done much of anything, he's STARTED a lot of stuff but very little of it has passed as of yet.  GM is GM.  Did you think that Barrack was a magician and he's step into office wave his wand and suddenly it would bt 2005 again? 

  It's not OBama's fault that Bush lowered taxes when any idiot could see he should have raised them.  (And if he was going to lower them it should have been speficically aimed at the middle and lower, not say a Capital Gains tax that only effects the rich, and the REALLY rich at that.) 

  The Republicans lack of anything sound on social policies is why the Democrats ran the house for 40 fucking years until 92 and now is back in charge.  Democrat economics works.  It doesn't make sense though and I doubt any of them have any clue as to why it works more often than not. 

• curmudgeon said 4 days ago....

  "The economy is getting better.  To say anything else is dishonest.  Stock Market up."
  
  Actually with the stock market up but the dollar way down it's fairer to say the gains are pretty much a wash. Think of it this way - your Apple shares may have risen in value recently, but because those shares are valued in dollars, the actual value of those shares isn't all that much higher. If you bought and sold your shares in Euros or yen it might be a different story.
  
  Actually capital gains taxes affect anyone who sells a house, which is farther down the economic spectrum than one might think. I suppose this point is moot right now, seeing as fewer people - including the super wealthy - stand to profit from the sales of their homes than in recent years.
  
  Anyway I'm getting truly tired of the incessant back and forth between liberal and conservative. I just wish we could take the best of both socially-conscious liberalism and entrepreneur-backing economic liberalism (READ: Free market) and craft policies that harness all of our creative abilities.
  
  
  

• stopmediabias said 4 days ago....

  Sean-'sigh'  What is wrong with you?

  "Did you think that Barrack was a magician and he's step into office wave his wand and suddenly it would bt 2005 again? 

  It's not OBama's fault that Bush lowered taxes when any idiot could see he should have raised them.  (And if he was going to lower them it should have been speficically aimed at the middle and lower, not say a Capital Gains tax that only effects the rich, and the REALLY rich at that.)" 

  Were you drunk when you wrote this?

  First of all you acknowledge that 2005 was a good year then you state because Bush lowered taxes it isn't Obama's fault?  Bush walked into a recession from Clinton and lowered taxes and it worked and you know it worked.  Middle to lower class people do not pay the kind of taxes that cutting them is going to work to to stimulate the economy, you also know this.  What is deal here?

• ALIENated said 3 days ago....

  Democrat economics works ...

  Oh my god. I hope you were drunk when you said that.

• SeanRenaud said 3 days ago....

  Historically ALIEN particularly over the last 50 years Democrat economics has workes every single time.  Don't get me wrong it makes as much sense as sending a cat to keep the wolves from your sheep but damned if it hasn't worked.

  And no Bush did not walk into a Clinton made recession.  Clinton's recession is what we are suffering right now (and REpublicans built it he just signed off on it but whatever.)  Bush should not have lowered taxes how can you even argue this rationally?  Is the time when YOU should save money when you are making it hand over fist or when you are clawing to pay your bills? 

  Middle Class don't really pay taxes I covered this in a separate blog.  But I'll recover it here.  When times are good (most of the Bush reign) we should raise taxes and collect revenue.  We should also close tax shelters and breaks and raise tariffs during these times.  When times get, well where they are, we should drop taxes to encourage growth (and more importanly we should have a rainy day fund built up during those good times.  But you guys are going to stick to Bush did good and ergo either A the Bush times weren't good economically or B having a rainy day fund is a silly liberal idea.  Its sad I know you so well I can call it in advance.)

• curmudgeon said 3 days ago....

  I understand Sean's point about storing up grain during good times as a hedge against the bad times, but as Obama's policies demonstrate, liberals want to raise taxes in good times and bad, and conservatives want to lower taxes in good times and bad.
  
  What neither party seems to want to do is decrease spending!
  
  What neither party seems to want to own up to is that our tilt towards consumerism (see this Op-Ed piece by Robert Reich for a good discussion on America's consumerism v. China's emphasis on production and growth: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704431804574537892719150978.html) is plainly unsustainable. We as a nation simply cannot go back to running up huge debts to satisfy our unending material desires. There has to be a point when we decide to produce goods and offer services that people around the world cannot match and thus gain a new comparative advantage. Simply flinging capital willy nilly around the world will not put average Americans back to work.
  
  It's really too bad that Obama feels it necessary to implement cap and tax before investing in renewable energy research, and natural gas exploration and extraction. New York State could become a leading energy producer of natural gas if not for the "environmentalists"  (READ: Democrats) standing in the way, delaying our transition to cleaner energy sources and maintaining the State's near-total dependence on New York City's financial sector to fund government services.
  

• stopmediabias said 3 days ago....

  Sean-Ok so lets see, FDR prolonged the great depression and Kennedy cut taxes.  Carter raised taxes and it was a disaster.  I think you might want to review your history.  The Clinton recession was caused from the internet bubble bursting.  The economy was in the crapper and then we had 9/11 hit and Bush cutting taxes pulled us out of the depths. 

  Sean if never ever read anything read this:  IT IS NEVER OK TO RAISE TAXES!  The government can do everything it needs with the taxes it collects now and should create revenue from spurring growth in business not taking it from it's citizens pockets.  The three major times in history in which massive tax cuts took place: Kennedy, Reagan, and W. Bush all brought growth which brought revenue.

  Curm hits the nail on the head.  Republicans cut taxes but for some reason can not restrain spending.  This is where Reagan was at fault and where partially Bush was at fault.  Only partially for Bush because he had to deal with 9/11, Katrina, wars, wildfires, etc..

• SeanRenaud said 3 days ago....

  Claiming FDR prolonged the Depression is complete bullshit.  You might as well tell me about how Obama caused the Confederates to break away from the US or how Ronald Reagan lead the Boston Tea PArty.  No wait the latter are believable.

  Cutting spending is obviously important but still has nothing to do with the fact that when you can afford to put extra money away you should. 

• stopmediabias said 2 days ago....

  In the book New Deal or Raw Deal, Burton Fulsom of Hillsdale college points to a quote from FDR's treasury secratary Henry Morgenthau:

  "We are spending more money than we have ever spent before and it does not work....We have never made good on our promises...I say after 8 years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started and enormous debt to boot." 

  World war 2 ended the great Depression and Obama's ancestors caused the Confederates to break away from the US.  OMG!!!!  I'm kidding on the latter!

  Putting extra money away is not the same as raising taxes.

   

• SeanRenaud said 1 day ago....

  Unemployment wasn't the same after 8 years of the New Deal.  I'll look up the exact numbers later but as I recall it dropped from roughly 25% to 10% and we are still reaping the benefits of those projects today that likely wouldn't have been built otherwise.

  World War 2 did end the Depression but we were pulling out of it on our own. 

• D6fer said 1 day ago....

  No doubt WWII had a huge effect on ending the depression, but the massive investment into our power infrastructure can not be ignored.....that has been paying dividends ever since....we also started hitting the oil fields pretty heavy then and also built our highway system....it was a combination of all of the above that ended the depression.

• SeanRenaud said about 12 hours ago....

  So again the New Deal worked.  So why not do it again?  There are plenty of Infrastructure style things we can do right now.  If nothing elese replacing the above ground power and phone lines with the new cable systems that run underground.  I'm sure there is other stuff but that's just one that immediatly comes to mind

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