• silverwhisper said on Sep 27, 2006....

  sean, you've taken a distinctly anti-christian turn of late. why is that?
  
  also, i'm curious to know what you expect will happen to you after your own death.
  
  ed
  

• madstorm said on Sep 27, 2006....

  The road every human being follows can also only lead to death. It is the one absolute certainty in life that any human has... the rest is pure conjecture... Death is there right beside us every second of every day, it is there when we cross the road, when we drive, when we sleep and even when we eat. To know and accept this indisputable fact is to truly live without fear.
  
  A rich man fears death and so hordes his money... a Christian fears death and so needs comfort in life through belief in Eternal life... they are both being selfish.
  
  The quest for each human to preserve itself over and above other humans, in other words selfishness, is the root of all the conflict in the world... the only answer is for us to become 'meek', to drop all concepts of religion, politics and nationality and make the quest of each human to preserve all other life... in other words, to be unselfish...
  

• curmudgeon said on Sep 27, 2006....

  Sean,
  
  Excellent points! Yes, the path Jesus took led inexorably to his death, and the same fate fell upon the early Christians who followed him.
  
  The issue I have with the "What woud Jesus Do" phrase is that we really don't honestly know what He would do in any given situation. He was always turning the tables on people, especially those who were closest to Him.
  
  Did He know the scripture and all the commandments and ordinances back and forth? Yes. But did He violate the Sabbath? Yes. Did He blaspheme? Yes. Did He offend others with his religous opinions? You bet.
  
  How can anyone claim to know what He would do with a track record like that? There's so much He did that people could credibly call wrong!
  
  That's not to say that we can't use his teachings as a guide. But rather than stymie ourselves trying to figure out which parable best applies, perhaps the rule of thumb ought to be - in any given situation, what is the most loving way to respond? Even the most ardent of secularists can certainly see that a humanistic standard such as this is a valid one.
  
  In some cases, as in dealing with a poorly behaving child, firm discipline is the most loving way.
  
  Let's remember also that Christ accepted soldiers as part of his reality. He ministered to a Roman Centurion. While Jesus Himself was willing to die for what He believed, He never once counseled soldiers to lay down their weapons - only to perform their duties justly. In today's military parlance, adhering to the UCMJ and upholding the Constitution might be the most loving way soldiers could approach their job.
  
  In my understanding, Christ was not a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination. He just fought the good fight in His own way.
  
  What would Jesus do? Only God knows.
  

• Indiefilm said on Sep 27, 2006....

  You know, I've tried the whole walking on water bit... it didn't work all that well for me...
  
  Sean; Have you read anything by John Ringo? If not, you might enjoy some of his stuff...
  

• sunsethue said on Sep 27, 2006....

  hey sean... i am a catholic but i am not a devout one... actually i was a workaholic... work was my priority, the family next and i dunno where going to church comes in... i always don't have time for church, and i don't even read the bible...
  
  anyway, i can only testify on what is happening in my life... when i got sick (i have cancer and dying) and my capacity was limited that was the only time that i realized what faith is all about... i tried to hope but then all my hopes failed... and the only thing i can hold on to is my faith in my god... this is the time when i really experienced how it is to let go and let god... i allowed myself to be led by listerning to that inner voice i hear inside my head.. and i saw that the life i was being led into was following the footsteps of christ... and when i asked my priest brother-in-law about it he told me that that is how christians should be... "like jesus christ"!
  
  death is a part of life... and each day is an experience that is continuously teaching me how to deal with it... and when i stopped struggling and just flowed i learned that when i have accepted the fact that i am going to die i understood why i had to die... that was also the time that i understood what life and living was all about...
  
  i don't worry about dying anymore... i work on each moment of my life to make myself better... so that when the time comes that i face our creator, i can say that i have lived life... and i am proud to present my life to him...
  
  keep the faith alive, friend! it's the only thing left to hold on to when all your hopes fail!
  

• SeanRenaud said on Sep 27, 2006....

  @Silver: Cus I can bash the Muslims and Jews and not only does nobody come to their aid but they won't defend themselves, though I am planing a What would Mohhamed do. I'm probably going to bash liberals in a bit because they are begining to annoy me as well.
  
  As for what will happen to me after I die I honestly don't know. I don't think any living person has the knowledge to properly say what will happen. If there is an afterlife then I suppose I will probably be punished depending on what religion is right. I can only say that if there is a truly just god then he should understand my actions and see that I love humanity and that is why I fight so hard when I see people doing what I equate to commiting suicide. You are all my brothers and I can't in good conscious watch any of you die.
  
  If nothing happens then I hope that in some small, or large way that I have contributed to people striving to improve the world through their actions, through their knowledge and working towards a world that is better for all of us.
  
  @Madstorm: For starters that idea is purely insane. Your right death is a certainity (though it might not have to be) but yes death is a certainty. Does that mean you should lie down and accept it?
  
  Becoming meek MIGHT work if EVERYBODY did. But the unselfish man is already dead. He serves no purpose to this world and needs to move aside so that those of us who have a thirst for life and living can enjoy it. You should seek immortality, that is your biological imperitive. The immortality through your genes, through your works, through memories of you. If you've accomplished everything you want to please go die.
  
  @Curmudgeon: Beautifully put. I still stand by the fact that his teaching which many (if not all) focus on as a particularly important lesson is turn the other cheek and do not resist evil. I believe that when good men do nothing evil triumphs. I will not turn the other cheek when one strikes me, I will take appropriate action.
  
  @Indie: LoL. Walking on water was so not what I meant. Thanks for the reading suggestion.
  
  @sunsethue: Its odd to hear such beautiful words and still be frightened. your second to last paragraph touched me as I believe that all humans should live like that. "i work on each moment of my life to make myself better". I just don't see why you or anybody else wouldn't do this for themselves.
  

• ALIENated said on Sep 27, 2006....

  WWJD was a great marketing scheme by someone. Was it
  the 80s, or maybe early 90s, when all those lapel pens
  started showing up? You are exactly right. What Jesus
  would do is inject Himself into this wonderful world that
  He created and we, with the help of Satan, turned into
  a garbage heap, for the most part. He came here to die.
  His teaching while He was here was just a side benefit
  for those of us that want to know what He thinks about
  things, which was: love the Lord your God and love your
  neighbor. My feeling is He was God and if you love God,
  whatever you call Him, you are half way there. Allah is
  God, Jehovah is God, Jesus is God. There is just one God
  whatever you want to call him. Mohammad was not God,
  Budda was not God, the Pope is not God, science is not
  God, money is not God, power is not God. The meek will
  inherit the earth after the riff raff have been cleared
  away by God, not because of anything the meek do.
  What can the meek do? We are meek.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 27, 2006....

  Renaud, you are an informed guy. As a devout Christian, though, it's fair to tell you that your information speaks largely of "pop culture Christianity" - in other words, you've got a basic grasp of what Christ did, but come to the wrong conclusions as to why or how it was done.
  
  Christians don't fear death BECAUSE Jesus died. He also rose from the grave and made it so that we'll have a GOOD afterlife. Some Christians do fear death, and that is selfish, but they're missing the entire point of why Christ allowed Himself to be crucified.
  
  Most of you are forgetting one thing also: Christians can turn the other cheek because God IS the one who steps up and defends them. Think of it this way: if we are meant to live, we can share Jesus' Gospel with people who are wounded and need to hear it. If we die for the sake of Jesus, we spend eternity with Him. It's a win win situation. There is no meaningless death for a Christian who stays faithful.
  
  People have been shot, stabbed, crucified (sometimes upside-down), and such, all because of Jesus Christ. Were they crazy? No - they were willing to die for a cause that means well for all of mankind. God avenges the death of His people, rest assured. I'd take God's protection over any army any day. If you read biblical accounts of God's people fighting against others by God's direction, it doesn't matter if they're outnumbered by the thousands - God made sure they wasted their for. The problem we run into is when we try to be the master of our own ship - when it happened in the Bible, bad things happened.
  
  Madstorm, your last comment is pretty much exactly what Jesus would have said. He had to silence all the religious leaders of His day (the ones that crucified Him) because they had made God a set of rules, traditions, a business, and a selfish endeavor. Jesus denounced that and loved all the people that He KNEW would eventually turn against Him. Jesus didn't come just to hang out and be harmless, He didn't do his own thing, and He didn't just die and flame out like a bad bulb.
  
  Madstorm, preserving our own interests and our own life is selfish, for sure. Loving and respecting all life regardless of religion, race, political view, or any other identifier, is unconditional love, and that's exactly who Jesus IS. Selfishness, aka ego, aka pride, is indeed the root of this world's troubles, and WE are responsible for all of it. That is why the entire world - not just Christians - has Jesus as a savior. Whether they accept it or not is up to them, but we can do many things because of Christ that we can't do otherwise - namely, we can truly unconditionally love when we follow the one man who was the epitome of unconditional love.
  

• Apollo said on Sep 27, 2006....

  Will some one please tell me how a follower of Jesus can be anything but a pacifist?
  Did Jesus ever say or do anything to suggest that violence by the hand of man can be acceptable?
  

• LongGun said on Sep 28, 2006....

  Sean,
  The world we have today is what we shaped it to be.
  When God made the world he had the best in mind for us. He gave us power over everything.
  However, we being capitalistic, self-centered, greedy, etc, etc have shaped the world what it is today.
  God even sent us His only Son, Jesus, with the hope that we will change our ways, but what did we do? We not only disbanded Him but even went to the extent of crucifying HIm.
  So who do we have to blame?
  If only everyone follows the footsteps and teachings of Jesus, you can just imagine what a beautiful world we will have today, instead of all the crime and what not.
  It all boils down to every individual as the buck stops there.
  It's only when we change ourselves and our line of thought, only then will we have a better world to live in.
  So the answer to WWJD is not for Him to answer, but we ourselves hold the answer.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 28, 2006....

  Well Apollo, when Jesus was arrested in the garden of gethsemane, just before the crucifixion, his disciple Peter attacked the Roman centurions that had just put Jesus in chains. He unsheathed his sword and hacked off the guard's ear, and then Jesus told him to put his sword away...that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Jesus then did something interesting - He healed the ear of one of the men who were sent to arrest Him and send Him to die on the cross. Jesus was in the garden praying about His betrayal and His upcoming death - He KNEW it was all going to happen, and if any time called for armed resistance, it would have been then, with some of His disciples, with the centurions coming after Him. But Jesus knew He must be arrested and killed in order to set us all free from our sins.
  
  Saying all that, it seems to indicate that a Christian is bound to pacifism. Then again, I had a theology professor who was also a black belt in tae kwon do. Go figure.
  
  War does not seem to be the answer in most cases, but to defend the freedom of a nation, rather than invading and stealing land from others for sport or conquest, doesn't seem to be against what Jesus taught. You pose a very interesting question about pacifism.
  

• madstorm said on Sep 28, 2006....

  Seanrenaud... Errrm... what idea was purely insane exactly? To be unselfish is insane or what? I can't quite see your point. To accept the fact of death is certainly not to lie down and accept it, no not at all, it is to realise death is a fact for all of us. To realise this brings awareness and responsibility for others and a very novel and revolutionary concept called 'caring'... yes, I know it's radical... after all, what am I suggesting? that people care? my God! the man's insane!!
  
  The world will have to become meek one day, and yes, your right, it will have to be everybody... it is the only logical solution, it will happen after the current frenzy of materialism and selfishness has burnt itself out. Which is soon...
  
  Violence never solves anything... period.
  
  You may have "a thirst for life and living" but what about the planets 800 million starving people? that's 800,000,000, 1 in 8 people... they have a thirst for clean water and that strange thing called 'food'... then they might have a chance at living. I'm not saying it's your problem, it's OUR problem, just like it's OUR planet and OUR wealth, WE made it, ALL of us... by working our butts off so a select few can be stupendously rich ... wealth is exploitation... period.
  
  As for "immortality through your genes, through your works, through memories of you" ... I think you have an Ego problem there my friend... I guess you haven't realised yet that wealth, status, success, achievement... call it what you want... are as empty as the stomachs of the starving. You'll learn the hard way I guess...
  

• madstorm said on Sep 28, 2006....

  Why thank you Lidstrom82... my comment was "pretty much exactly what Jesus would have said" ... so, I guess I answered the question "What would Jesus do?" ... do I get a prize?
  
  I'm a fairly simple guy... I tend to feed stray cats and help old ladies across the road... you know the kind of thing... I do it because I want too and not for any other reason. So... let me get this straight... I quite naturally 'do unto others as I would have them do unto me' ... yet because I don't have faith in Jesus as my Lord and saviour I'm condemned to Hell and damnation right?
  
  Hmmm... sounds like there's a condition to this unconditional love. You see... personally, I think the problem is the emphasis on the defence of the truth of faith has become more important than the action of the faith itself... this goes for all religions. The whole point is it is faith not truth... we only find the truth when we die... meanwhile lets look after each other...
  

• SeanRenaud said on Sep 28, 2006....

  Brilliantly stated madstorm. Save a few things some of which you already mentioned. It only takes a few not to conform to the the meek mentality. If the rest of you are willing to lay down and die if I take what's yours rest assured that I will. If you don't want to live you don't deserve to live. Or maybe you deser MORE than to live. Maybe you have acheived the kind of goodness that means you should be removed from my presense I don't honeslty know.
  
  The thing you shoudl consider is that a far seeing person knows that those 1 in 8 who are currently starving could produce a lot of profit once they get on there feet. I honestly believe that what is good for you is good for me in the long run. I'm not trying to take readers away from you. People who read madstorm do read Soulcast and Might read me, especially if you subscribe to me. I gain something out of this.
  
  Your final paragraph is beautiful in all senses of the word Unless I am confuses you are roughly saying that nobody knows what way is right which logically = all religions are wrong in at least one way. Savvy? Until we have a clear answer lets do what I am trying to do, to communicate with others who endure the Human Condition and find a path that is ideal.
  
  We seem to come from opposite points of origin byt our destination and point seems to be similar if not identical.
  
  Sean
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 29, 2006....

  Hey madstorm, I like the thought about there being a condition to unconditional love. In a way, it does make sense.
  
  And then I thought about something: if we know how to lovingly accept others, and do so with everybody but our parents, then we end up loving a lot of people - while rejecting the ones closest to us. What good, then, is that unconditional love if you are conditional about who receives it?
  
  That is why belief in God is vital - because God IS love, perfect love. If you practice it but don't acknowledge Him, you've just quoted the book but ignored the author.
  
  Here's the thing, madstorm: God loves everyone equally - not just Christians, or Jews, or Muslims, or whatever. People might consider me "tight" with God because of what I know or say, but the truth is He's just as loving and aware of you as He is to me. He can't love us any more, and certainly can't love us any less.
  
  But part of loving us was to give us free will. And we've kinda run with that and done our own thing. God created us to love us, and we run away constantly. The ones who never come back never know Him, and so unfortunately, they will suffer. But no, madstorm - I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to say that you're going to Hell. But the Bible does warn about rejecting God. Is that mean or judgmental of God? Well, is it judgmental of a parent to punish a child for doing something wrong? No - they learn and are corrected from discipline.
  
  So in the end madstorm, Jesus did say loving God with all you have is the greatest commandment, but those who do love God realize that it is their choice to - it's not forced upon us. If you choose to love your wife, that's not a condition - it's a choice you freely made. To that end, loving God and believing in Jesus Christ is NOT a condition - it is committing to God with that free will we have. In actuality, serving God is the most free any person can possibly be - because God oversees our lives, we do not have to labor and toil over every aspect of our lives that would otherwise tie us down.
  

• madstorm said on Oct 02, 2006....

  Hey Lidstrom82... you are a man of principle, like SeanRenaud, and I sincerely respect that. The Wiktionary definition of 'unconditional' is - "absolute, and without conditions, limitations, reservations or qualifications". If unconditional or Perfect Love is the nature of God (which I believe it is by the way) then there are no conditions... period. It is a God we mere Humans have not yet come to know because we have not yet realised that unconditional love is also our own nature. Love in the human context has been divided and restricted to love of the 'mine'... 'my' family, 'my' country, 'my' money... these are essentially selfish in origin and in fact are not love at all. And so we have a divided world which is utterly without love.
  
  Love is the sensitivity to know ALL our actions have consequences, this is simple awareness and is summed up very well in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". There is wisdom and truth in the Bible but also just as much wisdom and truth in the John Lennon song 'Imagine'.
  
  We do not need Jesus as a saviour... he is dead. We need to save ourselves.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Oct 02, 2006....

  I definitely agree with you about the selfish nature of "love" that we see too often today - we love people in order to get a return, or reward. the idea is to love without condition so people around you see it and get encouraged to do likewise for others.
  
  However, madstorm, you cannot definitively say that Jesus is dead. That borders upon flamebait in some circles, not to mention it can be incredibly offensive toward Christians. Besides, if we get ourselves in trouble, how can we save ourselves? It's like falling overboard in turbulent waters. We "got ourselves into it", but if we don't get saved by another, chances are we're dead. I also say this as a kind-hearted joke - all the wisdom of John Lennon couldn't save the Beatles from Yoko Ono - who once tore up a Bible during a performance, no less. Frankly, I'll take the Gospel of Jesus Christ over the Ballad of John and Yoko any day.
  
  The simple fact is that most of this world doesn't find loving unconditionally nearly as simply (or easily) as you do. If you can love unconditionally without Jesus, as you say, then by all means, go ahead. But do not presume to say that the savior of the entire world is dead and irrelevant - Jesus Christ is the single best example of unconditional love in the entire history of existence.
  

• madstorm said on Oct 04, 2006....

  Love in the human context has also been divided and restricted to love of 'my God'... which is also essentially selfish in origin, after all, how many people say they found God and are thankful there lives got worse? Religious belief is essentially about the continuance and protection of the self and self interest during life and after death.
  
  John Lennon is a good example of the highs and lows of fame and fortune... in the end it leads to nothing. Anyway... he was no doubt driven by ego.
  
  No offense was intended in my comments... the comment was merely stating the fact of the physical death of Jesus, it is faith that believes in the continuance of his spirit. Faith can only ever be faith not truth.
  
  The analogy of God being our parent and we being the children doesn't hold up. A parent doesn't hide from their children and leave cryptic messages in a book in the hope their children might find them... a parent doesn't leave their children confused and lost, never mind leave them starve to death. (Well... some do unfortunately!)
  
  WE... that is OUR actions both past and present, created the "turbulent waters" and it is US who need to work together to get us out.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Oct 04, 2006....

  I've appreciated this dialogue madstorm. To be honest I haven't been offended, but it's good to know you didn't mean offense by anything you said - sometimes offense IS meant when it comes to religion!
  
  I saw a couple of assumptions on your part, madstorm, so I want to point out how Christians look at those matters simply because believers operate on different assumptions. In this post assumption does NOT equal bad; I'm just saying that belief and nonbelief both operate on assumptions.
  
  First off, in the Bible God repeatedly refers to Himself as our Lord. He freely offers Himself as Father and Guide to us all. So in essence, a Christian saying He is "My God" is not selfish any more than I tell another about "my wife". You assume Christianity is a manmade enabler of selfish human desires and wants - Christians, on the other hand, assume that He does exist - and as such, He stated repeatedly in the Bible that He is ours. It is not selfish to call Him "my God", therefore...it's just that the assumption that faith requires is different than your point of view, and the assumption you have.
  
  Secondly, the analogy of God being our parent doesn't hold up because of two reasons: one, no analogy is perfect, so if you really want to find a flaw in it, you can. And two, you assume that God is hidden and that the Bible is cryptic. That assumption is nothing new and is fairly common throughout history. To the Christian, however, those assumptions totally miss two things: one, that evidence for God is overwhelming to a person seeking it - He's not hidden, He's just not a guy you can walk up and talk to. Doesn't mean He isn't there. The second assumption is that the Bible is cryptic and can leave people confused and lost.
  
  The Bible is not cryptic. If one reads it as the answer book of the universe, they'll be disappointed. If they read it as a history book, they'll find entire eras unspoken for. If they read it as good fiction, they'll get bored. The Bible contains everything necessary to teach someone about gaining salvation and faith by the grace of God. Generally speaking, if you aren't looking for that, you WILL be disappointed. But you will have also missed the entire point.
  
  Lastly, madstorm, I think that if people are confused or lost by God, it is up to Christians to build up and encourage others to keep seeking God when everything appears cryptic.
  
  I think you expect that if God were real, He'd be with us and obvious so EVERYONE would believe, and the world would be a lot better off because He'd be around, fixing things. Or we'd live in a perfect world. Well, that's not reality, is it? The perfect world with God is in Heaven. This life prepares us for eternity in Heaven, and all we're meant to do there. In that light, living this life by our own power and fulfillment is the true selfish ambition - if we live for ourselves, we don't do what God would have us do to be prepared for eternity with Him.
  
  And madstorm, the Bible and churches around the world will teach and instruct Christians to do exactly what you described - to work together with everyone to "get us out" of the turbulent waters. But how we do that comes from God. Not many people can get themselves out of addictions - they need others, at the very least. That community was God's idea. I think that in the end you'll find that the goal you have of having everyone save themselves is a noble one, but no progress will be made unless we do things that God instituted and intended for us to do, whether we realize it or not.
  
  In other words, we confuse and starve each other by nature, and although it doesn't take a Christian to love another person unconditionally, it is God who authored unconditional love in the first place. If you read the Bible with an open mind, madstorm, you will find it spelled out for you many times. If you read it with the assumption that God doesn't exist, it might as well be a closed book. But the truth is in there. Truth does NOT depend upon the circumstances - there does exist one truth by which all existence goes by. In some ways, answers to life are incredibly simple - it's just that many don't accept those answers because it requires faith in a God they can't see or prove exists by scientific testing.
  
  One more thing: Jesus IS alive. That is relevant because saving ourselves is utterly futile, and something we will never accomplish. Jesus is the pure hope of a dying world. If that makes no sense, look at the states of things around us. In many ways, this world is dying. And even though we made it that way, we can't fix or reverse it. Think of it this way: if you have a bucket of clean water, and then pour a handful of dirt in it, you can't make it clean just by adding water. In fact, adding anything won't make the water clean as it once was. No matter what, the dirt still remains, and even though we put it in the bucket, we can't simply scoop the dirt out and call the water pure again. It's the same thing with our souls and our selfish, sinful pride, guys. Jesus is the only thing that will renew and make clean what we do to screw up ourselves and others. If you don't agree, madstorm or anyone else, I do respect that. But I would ask for consideration before any counterpoints. A consideration to not simply dismiss such an idea but to honestly ask if that's how life really is - Jesus as savior of the world. You don't need me to write 10 more paragraphs to convince you, ask yourself some honest questions and if necessary, look at the source in the Bible. The words inside give life and change hearts. That's what Jesus did, after all.
  

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