ALIENated said about 6 hours ago..
People will voluntarily undertake this
And why are people not voluntarily doing all these bad jobs now? A job is advertised. A job so bad few would want it. However, in a capitalist society, someone calls up and says that is one dirty ass job, but I will do it for $4X (where X is the amount originally offered). After no other offers, the job is given to the guy that bids $4X.
NO ONE would offer to do the job in a Socialist / Communist society. The dictator (or dictating party) would force someone to do it.
In a Socialist / Communist society, the government takes over everything and dictates who will do what, how much they will make, yadda yadda yadda. The weak flourish and the able are punished.
In a Capitalist society, government oversees the building of roads and bridges, protects our country (military and police), and helps those who cannot help themselves (old people, veterans, flood victims, etc.). Government taxes people and businesses a minimum amount, and lets them do their jobs however they see fit. The government stands back and makes sure they do not poke each others eyes out.
I am convinced you are not talking about either of these situations. You are describing some fantasy land society where people do not act like human beings.
SeanRenaud said 16 minutes ago....
So once you cut out all the words you use to confuse the issue magic. The way that all the current jobs get done is magic. You really don't have an answer. I'm exactly one post from reverting to the proper way of dealing with you but I give you one final post.
1. How do you intend under your plan to get people to do undesirable jobs which really is all of them
Hi Alien,
First of all, are aware you of exactly how widespread volunteering is, even in the US? Here are some figures I discovered
TABLE 1. VOLUNTEERING IN THE UNITED STATES
1993 1995 1998
Percentage of population volunteering 47.7% 48.8% 55.5%
Total number of volunteers 89.2 million 93.0 million 109.4 million
Total annual hours volunteered—formal and informal 19.5 billion 20.3 billion 19.9 billion
Total hours volunteered—formal 15.0 billion 15.7 billion 15.8 billion
Total hours volunteered—informal 4.5 billion 4.6 billion 4.1 billion
Value of volunteer time (excluding informal volunteering) $182.3 billion $201.5 billion $225.9 billion
http://www.independentsector.org/PDFs/InformalVols.pdf
What this clearly demonstrates to me is that people have a natural propensity to give, notwithstanding the cutthroat ethos of capitalism.
Secondly, the reasons why people don’t voluntarily do the ‘bad’ jobs (Why are they ‘bad jobs’, by the way, and if they’re ‘bad’ surely capitalism ought to reward street sweepers more handsomely then stockbrokers? Why doesn’t it?) are obvious. I’m surprised you can’t work them out for yourself. Basically, it’s because you and I, and the vast majority of people on the planet are compelled to work for a wage; we are ‘wage slaves’. If we don’t work we suffer. Nearly everything in this capitalistic dystopia has a price tag on it, and if you can’t produce the money for it, you can’t have it. In some parts of the world, and in earlier times, unemployment has even been a death sentence. So voluntary work, particularly of a unpleasant nature is understandably low on most people’s list of priorities, There’s another reason too: Suppose you and a number of like-minded volunteers turn up at your local waste disposal plant, and say to the owner, ‘Please Mr Capitalist, give us a job; we’re happy to work for nothing’ What do you think would happen then? After rubbing his hands raw with glee, Mr C will immediately begin laying off his employed workers. So you’ll have their ire to contend with as well. In many respects, this is what happens when employers take on ‘scab’ labour in times of industrial strife. Scabs are happy to work for lower wages or less ‘generous’ terms than the existing workforce, and therefore their intervention undermines the efforts of the latter to advance their interests . Hence the well-deserved contempt with which scab labour is generally held. (It always amuses me when right-wing ‘free marketers’ start frothing at the mouth about ‘selfish strikers’, when, in fact, a strike simply amounts to workers withdrawing the commodity they sell – their labour power – because the price isn’t right, Capitalists wouldn’t think twice about withdrawing a product, or closing a factory, or cashing in shares etc. So why the hypocritical venom at workers when they too ‘play the market?)
You are right, Alien, to be convinced that I’m not talking about either of the two situations you refer to – I’m glad that you have the courtesy to acknowledge that your take on socialism/communism differs utterly from mine. As I’ve repeatedly said before, I’m not in the business of defending state capitalist regimes (what you call socialist/communist regimes), and at least we see eye to eye on that.
Sean, I’m really beginning to think you’re a sandwich short of a picnic. Having just provided you with a number of detailed responses on amongst other things, the voluntary nature of work, and strategies for coping with scarcity, I’m frankly at a loss to understand why you think I ‘really don't have an answer’ If its just that my explanations aren’t adequate, well, then spit it out, man, and tell in what way are not good enough. It just seems to me that you, like a lot of other contributors on SoulCast, have a very narrow, parochial, and dare I say it, American take on the world. You’re incapable of thinking outside of the box, and basically, you don’t give a damn about this failing, smugly certain as you are that the US is the ‘greatest country in the world’. It’s pathetic really. But if you feel that you’re ‘exactly one post from reverting to the proper way of dealing with (me)’, hell, go ahead and block me, or whatever. I’ll take that as an admission that you’re incapable of mustering any arguments. All you’re good at is declamation without evidence or logic – a typical redneck (notwithstanding your African American roots)
