It took me a long time. About fifty years.
I was young once and during that time I had all the answers. Why couldn't everyone else see it? There was a black and white answer for all moral, ethical, and political questions. There was right and there was wrong. In my forties I came to the realization there was definitely a gray area, and I do not mean solely on my head.
I found I wasn't always right. I found I was rarely right (meaning correct) thinking black and white. The reason for this was , lo and behold, I placed myself on the 'other' side in my thought and found in different opinions a great amount of wisdom, a truth that was hidden from me.
I found that the word 'liberal' wasn't a word directly from satan. I found that 'their truth' could be not only incorporated into my thinking, but accepted as moral and humane. Most of all, I found as I have said many times before on this site, 'if you do not understand both sides to every issue, you have no opinion'. And it became one of the three postulates I live by.
I was a republican and right of center conservative. I still have several conservative values, but am no longer republican. Nor am I democrat even though I changed my voting card to democrat due to george bush and buddies.
You see, mostly in the first fifty years to now, I had free and total health care. I was happy and my family was covered. I always had a job and worked hard. I had a way to plan easily for retirement, the company did it for me. My daughter never needed an abortion. Life was good and anyone who didn't have what I did just didn't work for it. It's easy to think like this when you are a republican conservative.
Slowly, over the years, I came to realize everything I had was not supplied by 'my kind'. My working conditions, my vacation time, my health care, my wages, my retirement, my very security existed due to unions. So did everyone else's. Would republicans have provided any of this? In a pig's butt.
I noticed minimum wages (such as they are) were all provided by democrats after battle with republicans and it did not decimate small business, at all. I noticed social security was democrat (after battle) and reps like it now. I noticed medicare was provided by democrats (after battle) and reps love it now. They say it's the way we should go.
There was something else I noticed. Conservative groups were not always right and liberal groups were not always wrong, and vice-versa. Let me take the ACLU for example. This was an exceptionally dirty four letters for me for many years. I still get a little miffed at them.
The ACLU isn't really a force for civil liberties, it is a force for the 1st amendment. They protect free speech and press. As a young man what I didn't fully understand is you cannot pick and choose who to protect in order to protect a right. I didn't understand that everyone must have it or no one has it. They must protect the one's you don't like in order to protect your right.
In all my views on tv and reading, I have never found one constitutional scholar regardless of liberalism or conservatism state you can pick and choose who is protected. They usually use the example of 'the camel getting his nose under the tent'. Pretty soon the whole camel is in the tent and you lose the tent.
A friend the other day who is a Phd. in mass communications, sent me an article about the ACLU defending a gun owner. She did this because I told her I had never seen them defending right to bear arms. It was over free speech...but still...
They also defend people all over the country who cannot afford a lawyer in cases you would agree with. And they are stretched thin doing this.
Now to get to my point of this post. My point is 'reasonable thought'. One of my favorite words in the language is simply 'reasonable'. And it is reasonable to think that no group, no party, and actually not that many individual people - are reasonable - in all issues.
This is far more difficult than most believe.
If you are religious can you be reasonable about your beliefs? Can you keep them in your family, or your person, or your church? Are you capable of realizing your beliefs may be wrong for others, or just plain wrong? Do you realize your religion must not control government?
If you are a democrat or republican do you realize your party cannot be right all the time? That both are heavily controlled by interests of money, especially in the banking and corporate world? Is it possible for you to discern when it is the interest of them alone and not your family or the good for all?
Is it possible for you to know when an environmental group may have a valid point? Or the ACLU may have a valid point?
It is one of the necessities in life that we must have special interests. Even bankers and corporations. Even the ACLU and PETA.
This is where we come in on reasonable thought. Special interests are the watchdogs of our society. We must have them. The problem is their interest is their bible. And none of them are right all the time.
We must discern.
If we attack any one all the time, we are wrong part of the time.
If we use reasonable thought all the time, chances are most of us will find the excesses, the lies, the greed, and act accordingly.
But if you are religious can you side with the atheist when they are right?
If you are republican can you side with democrats when they are right?
If you are democrat can you side with the republicans when they are right?
Most of all we must not forget the last sentence of the Gettysburg Address :
"-that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom - and that government, of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
The "under God" part does not bother me in the least even though I am agnostic. I don't mind at all that "in God we trust" is on our coins and currency. It kind of makes me feel good.
It is "of the people, by the people, for the people" that bothers me. Many of us are losing sight of this part. Our rights wither like a fall leaf. So many are no longer for the people, especially our so-called leaders in every aspect of government, finance, and lawmaking.
Can we discern?
Are we capable of finding the culprits in any idealogy, even ours, through reasonable thought?
Can you listen to the other party and their media voices and find something of value?
Can you learn about special interest groups, find what they are really about, and support them when they are right regardless of their name?
Do you take the time to find balance between sides from all that is said?
If you do not, you have no opinion. Or at least one that means anything. No one can make a reasonable decision with only fifty per cent of the knowledge. You must be capable of hearing both sides and finding where true value lies.
Nothing else is reasonable. Nothing else is right.
If we do not do this, the people will not win as Lincoln wanted.
The biggest lie will win, the most money supporting the biggest lie will win.
And you lose.
beyondtheveil posted on Oct 05, 2009
| views: 273
Comments
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uniquely-ironic said on Oct 05, 2009....
great blog, and nice to see you again! I used to think of myself as more reasonable than most. Now I see myself as trying to be reasonable, sometimes failing, and once in a while just downright beligerant in my views. I can say that I have accepted that no one group has all the right answers. It's just hard deciding what the right answer is some days. -
Twylarants said on Oct 05, 2009....
Good post, Beyond. Wouldn't it be nice if politicians followed the same advice dieters follow....everything in moderation? -
Lucytorial said on Oct 05, 2009....
Beyond ~ This is perhaps the very best post I have read ever on this site.Thank you. -
woman said on Oct 05, 2009....
Beyond~What a joy to read. A calm and reasonable voice asking us to be the same. Pointing out some interesting facts. Telling of your own evolution. Thank you. It is nice to see you here and to read something so well thought out and written. Thank you again. woman -
wombat said on Oct 05, 2009....
Don't know much, but heard that if you have a Republican prez, the Dems control and vice versa. Is this true?If so, then we are "mobil ucked" right from the start. (reference to his fun typo post)Right or Left?Ju t pick a ucking ide, run with it and hope for the ucking be t? -
MissMimi said on Oct 05, 2009....
I am so pleased to read some reasonable beyond-ness and this was an excellent example of why your voice is so missed around here when it's absent.
My God, beyond, if we could get all the rabid left- and right- and in between-wingers to read this, and take it to heart, how different things might be in this country.
Bravo!
(P.S. Send this to ALIENated and curmudgeon.)
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secretlife said on Oct 05, 2009....
when i was 18-30 i was quite liberal.i think when you're young you should be liberal....i don't have unions to thank for any of the things me or my husband have worked for these past 25 years. i don't have the government to thank for paying our medical, our housing, our children's educations, or anything else- we pay our own way. we have always paid our taxes, and haven't gotten a penny back from taxes since we were in our twenties. we give to charities each and every year, in addition to giving to our church.i consider myself a conservative now and i'm proud of that.i did not say republican or democrat. i did say conservative.the things i believe in? God, family, country- pretty basic stuff.i'm passionate about my beliefs.I'm fine with you having yours.i don't consider myself naive. i think i'm intelligent enough to find out about the issues and form an opinion. i've seen enough politicians to know that both sides lie and cheat- but i'm idealistic enough to believe we deserve better and should speak out when we see something we believe is wrong-of the people, by the people, for the people......not of the government, by the government, for the government.goverment is supposed to SERVE the people.and this is what i believe has been forgotten-goverment instead has become the "elite"......they believe they are "above the people"the question is, is there really a way for the people to take it back? or is the whole system so corrupt that it's impossible? -
gingersoul said on Oct 05, 2009....
BeyBey....well, all the things you say here you have already said many times in many other your posts and comments that you graciously have scattered in this site.
So I am not surprised at all to read this.
I've always shared with you a lot of point of views and when we weren't on the same wavelength we've always been able to find a common ground.
And this common ground is called balance, equilibrium, respect of the other person ideas.
Even humility in accepting to be wrong.
You have all these qualities.
See, I had the same black and white vision of the world when i was younger...i was a terrible, passionate but one sided mind....lol..
Slowly learning, studying, watching people, thinking outside of the box brought me to accept that in life there is instead a lot of greyness that has to be heard and recognized.
But I did the opposite journey of you....i started being extremely leftist, to the border of anarchy. I mellowed my positions during years of political debates, participation at billions of forums, discussion, meeting people who were thinking differently.
I slowly shifted from that extremism. It has been like a liberation for me. I still recall the day i acutely sensed i had changed...i felt so much more free being finally liberated from any imposing theories...i was finally choosing my own truth..
I think i can say i am definitely more open minded now than years ago...more tolerant than before.
This doesn't mean i wouldn't stay put in case of somebody attacking my position...
I am not a Buddha, but now i stop and try to consider the other person position instead of confronting them thinking only i have the Truth in my hands...
Said so, there are point of views i consider un-defendable and others that i consider uncompromisable.
Which ones are yours?
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mobil said on Oct 05, 2009....
Hey Beyond, I am still stuck here in this God, Guns and Guts conservatisim I've lived almost all my life in. It's not that I haven't looked around, or not found the folks on the other side of the fence right from time to time, I have.I am crazy conservative, over the top on the right I suppose. If there were a revolution, I can see myself shooting liberials. This because I think they are ruining my country, I hate the bastards for that. And for that I guess I have no opinion.As always, interesting post Beyond. -
beyondtheveil said on Oct 05, 2009....
unique- I think we all experience the sides you mention, sometimes reasonable, sometimes belligerent, always looking for the answer. It's just human, I suppose.
twyla- You brought up another of my favorite words, which is moderation. Goes well with reasonable, doesn't it?
lucy- I thank you so much for those words. I know I don't deserve it, but much appreciated.
woman- And thank you. I am happy you enjoyed reading it.
wombie- It happens like that at times, but not always. I thought mobil's post was funny too, by the way.
mimi- I have beyond-ness? I think I'll add that to my vocabulary. Now all I have to do is figure out how to use it. And I'm not sending the post to certain people. They will think I'm attacking them, which wasn't the point.
secretgirl- We are a lot more alike than it may seem. My wife and I worked for everything also, paid our way and always will. I have many of the same complaints that you do. This post was just telling how I used to be, where I started, and how wrong I feel it was. I won't label myself ever again as there are too many ways I agree, and disagree, with both sides.
soulgirl- First of all, thank you for your words. I knew from your writing also that we started at opposite ends. But finding the middle ground, listening and learning from all who offer opinions is, as you said 'liberating' , isn't it? It is almost like a new found freedom, it's like power, the power to think. As for your last two lines, I feel that is one great idea for a post from you. If not, I'll answer your question on here later. But I'd like to see you write a post on that. Has it been written about on SC before? Not that I remember. You are a perfect one to write it.
mobil- There's nothing wrong with God, guns, or guts. I like the last two, haven't found the first. And if there's a revolution, I'll be chambering a round into my '94 right along side of you, I'm sure. But we won't be fighting liberals, or conservatives. We'll be fighting the likes of the greedy power-grabbing pond scum that fills the 535 seats in congress for example. Neither are true to their voiced ideals, or to the people. They are true only to themselves at the country's expense. Both of them. It's that kind of people we will one day fight. Lying roaches in expensive suits.
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D6fer said on Oct 05, 2009....
Well this post is reasonable beyond ;)
Actually, I think that I agree with a lot of what you are saying here......most people probably do......often we tend to lean towards our political poles or core beliefs and rarely do you see otherwise here......for instance, I think Obama is well spoken and makes sense on occasion, but I don't relate that in my posts because on the whole, I think he is dangerous and should be voted out of office, so why campaign for him?
I could say the same for the ACLU and labor unions, but on the whole, I think they do more harm than good (I spearheaded a union busting effort and won)
I must admit that I have changed a bit in the past few years, and as a fellow agnostic, I understand your point in those matters.
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beyondtheveil said on Oct 05, 2009....
d6- Unions have had their bad points. Doesn't everything, well almost? They aren't the thing for everyone, or every company. But there was a time not long ago when workers had nothing and unions were the driving force for the things named in the post and others, such as safety. A lot of good legislation was passed due to their efforts that would not have been passed without them. There are people in unions we would just as soon not have around, just as there are in management - it's the hatred of unions I don't understand. They are a very good watchdog.
I don't know if Obama is dangerous or not. I do know who was dangerous and he is out, thank heaven. Obama can't seem to move a sheepish party, so I have little fear of bad legislation. And we have an opposing party that's so pissed about their own mistakes and losing power, they oppose everything before hearing it. I wouldn't worry too much. That's my take on it at this point in time.
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MsStar39 said on Oct 06, 2009....
Well said Beyond, I would like for a lot more people to read this. -
destinydiva said on Oct 06, 2009....
I really enjoyed reading this beyond :-) xx -
superbozo said on Oct 06, 2009....
Hi Beyond....reasonble thought needs resonable people. Unfortunately many are not wired this way. I also think we have information overload as well. As you pointed out politicians have their hands in many pies and like the master magicians they confuse and trick even those watching carefully. Also with this lovely thing called the internet there is so much information and misinformation to filter through. One of the big hurdles with reasonable thought is the media and information in general. Time restraints and ratings push the media agenda and lip service or information in soundbytes is the norm. Then modern living and the push to provide for ones family make it next to impossible for many to find the time.. Hell even the politicans are too busy to read the legislation they are asked to pass. Even when given the time to do so most will only follow the party line and talk about tough decisions. How can it be tough when your decision was made for you in the party room.TIME FOR POLITICAL REFORM If we want to live in a true democracy our voices need to be taken into account for every decision and every bill taken to parliment. A friend suggested that every bill or legislation taken to parliment be voted for by the people online or by sms. I pointed out the logistical problems with fraud and mass voting but still think it's a good idea. All too often politians work to their own agenda. Maybe some sort of system could be feasible after all I can access most goverment departments online. Maybe then the voice of reason could be heard. -
abbonzai said on Oct 06, 2009....
Good post ... I really enjoy with your article. -
Twylarants said on Oct 06, 2009....
Everyone here brought up good points in their comments, Beyond. I recently posted something about differing ideologies in America, but you've managed to make more sense of it than I did.
What people often fail to understand when arguing politics is that most of us in this country want the same thing. We want what's best for ourselves, our families, and our countrymen.
Where we disagree is on how to get it, and the political parties who want to stay in power, and the politicians who want all the perks of a lifetime career, promote that disagreement with fervor.
They use us. They use the "what" and the "how" to pit us against each other and they sit back and reap the rewards.
Each side makes sweeping statements about the other side's ideology causing otherwise reasonable people to become radicalized. Both parties bank on us being too stupid to decide for ourselves because politicians are afraid of the middle ground.
Being conservative, I favor individualism. Being liberal, you favor collectivism. We both want the same thing, we just differ on how to get it and politicians use that difference to stay in power.
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bigcock said on Oct 06, 2009....
Thankyou for posting this. -
mobil said on Oct 06, 2009....
Fair enough Beyond, I wouldn't shoot you anyway liberial or not haha. I suppose Washington DC is the place to begin taking this country back. -
beyondtheveil said on Oct 06, 2009....
MsStar- Thank you. I believe anything is well said, if it is reasonable.
des- Thank you. I'm glad you read it.
super- It is true what you said about the media and the net. We cannot escape them, it's what they have given us. But people must find the time and the important part is to divide that time available to listening and reading both sides to issues cared about. I watch Fox news, the obvious conservative side, but also watch MSNBC and CNN. It is quite amazing how much bullshit can be analyzed so much better if you watch opposing views regularly. Not only opinions, but many times with documentation.
abbonzai- Thank you for reading.
twyla- Everything you said points to the importance, I claim, in my comment to superbozo. It is our job to dig out the truth, or at least what might work best for all. That requires listening to people we may not care for. I have too many bones to pick with both sides to label myself yet. For instance, I am not for a true liberal single payer health care system. I am for good reform which is necessary, but we won't get it because they are politicians and solely out for themselves. I think a lot of that could be helped by campaign finance reform and possibly term limits (good luck).
big- And I thank you for reading.
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beyondtheveil said on Oct 06, 2009....
mobil- You are exactly right! In my opinion we need some other changes in government to make that come about. But we'll see. -
mixednuts said on Oct 06, 2009....
This was very interesting! Thanks! -
wasteland_ranger said on Oct 06, 2009....
You gave us much to chew on here of great meaning! -
beyondtheveil said on Oct 06, 2009....
mixed- I'm glad you fond it that way. Thank you.
wasteland- Thank you for your contribution.
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moonriver said on Oct 06, 2009....
hi beyond.i'll read this when my brain reboots around lunch time.meanwhile, let me just say, where you been dude? -
beyondtheveil said on Oct 06, 2009....
Hey moonman- I've been a bit busy lately, mainly taking trips in my new pick'emup truck. I'd been homebound for so long I just had to move or go bonkers.
I would reboot too, but don't know where my start button is.
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Blackmyst said on Oct 08, 2009....
I would have to agree in order to have an opinion both sides of the argument must be understood. I was raised in a teamster household...my father a Commissioner for Social Development. I was raised to hold the Lord within my heart and mind to guide the scrupples of my life. But, not all causes are always just, and not all political beliefs are always right. You struck a cord with me basically reinforcing my college education which taught me to read between the lines concerning the political leadership, and the best path for our society. Solutions and paths are two seperate things and not all solutions place us on the correct path. I thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. -
beyondtheveil said on Oct 09, 2009....
myst- It sounds like we think much the same in this area. And from your household, I would bet you understand the overall importance of unions and what they have contributed to our society.
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