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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_us/us_more_school
 
President Obama wants to increase the amount of time that students spend in school.  It's simply a blatantly bad idea.  Our children already spend to many hours in school as is, the problem with our education system is not the amount of time spent in the class room.  It is our culture.
 
Our culture does not value education as a whole.  We do not praise our academic acheivements in the same way that we do our sports acheivements.  We don't reward children for excelling.  Far from it we actually punish our children for excelling, particularly those who aren't planning on attending a major University.  Instead of looking at a child who is obviously to advanced for a given class and letting them test out of the class and take the next class and graduating early we put them in harder classes.  I can speak from personal experience that it doesn't encourage your average student. 
 
We don't hold our teachers to any standards other than don't sleep with the students.  There is no incentive for them to get their students to test better or acheive more. 
 
Many parents do not want to involve themselves in their child's education.  Many SCers have mentioned that it is the Teacher's job to teach and the parents job to parent.  If teacher can't teach they shouldn't be paid.  Again it's a culture thing.  Parents should take an active part in their child's education, not just helping with homework and not just piling on extra study material as well but discussing things with them.  Being parents basically.
 
The bottom line is that if more hours were the answer then we'd already be leading.  We already spend more time in school than many nations who out test us.  Japan for example spends 1005 hours vs our 1146.  So for the record that is almost six more days, not a week more but six full 24 hour hour days.  Split into 8 hour school days (I think school is actually closer to 7 but whatever.  I hate math.) it becomes seventeen extra days or nearly a month.  This is a particularly relevant comparison because the Japaness spend more DAYS in school than us but they ration their time in a way that is clearly as if not more effective than our own.
 
Bottom line is we need to change our culture if we want an improvement on education.  Not chain children to desks longer.


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Comments

  • ABOVE_TOP_SECRET said on Sep 27, 2009....
    Obama needs a computer!
  • curmudgeon said on Sep 28, 2009....
    One also has to question the nineteenth century factory model we follow when it comes to educating kids: Bussing them to huge schools, sitting kids 20-30 to a class, running them through exactly the same course material at exactly the same pace according to the exact same calendar regardless of interest, learning speed or style just doesn't fit in with today's highly customizable environment.

    With all of the information we have available on the internet, why do students need these huge, heavy standardized textbooks?

    Kids can learn so much from their parents if parents would but share their worldly enthusiasms with them. My dad's hobby was photography. One day he spent an hour with me explaining depth of field by having me look through his camera. In that one hour I learned more about photography than I could have in a classroom course. I came to my classes in video and film knowing more about composition and editing than most students simply because I watched old Japanese movies with my parents.

    Parental "education" need not simply be about checking whether or not Junior or Junioretta has done his-her homework. It really ought to be about sharing with kids what the parents have learned as they have moved through life.
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 28, 2009....
    Exactly.  But many people, most of them Conservatives, but many people scream exactly the opposite.  That we pay our teachers too much and that they as parents should not be involved in their children's education because that is what we pay taxes for.  If teachers can't do their jobs we should fire them save the extra money (as if we would actually notice the extra money from eliminating a single program) and use that money to pay for private tutors or take time off from work etc etc.
  • javadewd said on Sep 28, 2009....
    Reminds me of that stage in Revolution X where you have to stop the school bus...

    Anyway, I remember an older gentleman who spoke at a PTA meeting when I was a kid. He spoke of how kids were educated in the one-room school houses circa "Little House on the Prairie." He said there was only two things that a teacher had to excel in : Keeping a student's attention on learning and keeping that student from getting bored. He admitted that such a thing seemed difficult at first with 30+ students in one room, but after a while he felt like a symphony conductor or the pied piper, leading the more charismatic kids while the others would follow them.

    None of this has anything to do with the "length" of time in school, but rather the quality of the teaching. I've noticed that none of that has come into question here.
  • javadewd said on Sep 28, 2009....
    Why the hell not, he seems like a patsy for the Muslims anyway...
  • bloc said on Sep 28, 2009....
    @curm

    " running them through exactly the same course material at exactly the same pace according to the exact same calendar regardless of interest, learning speed or style just doesn't fit in with today's highly customizable environment.
    "

    disclaimer: my wife is a elementary school teacher

    This is a good point. Most teachers hate the fact that curriculums are being dictated to them from the state and federal levels. Sadly, it's too easy for politicians to appear "good on education" by giving a good speech then setting up this standardized environment. 

    Also, teachers regularly plan separate tasks and lessons for ability groups within their classroom. The good ones do customize the environment but ti is a lot of extra work. When budgets get cut as they are now it makes it even harder. My wife used to have an assistant that helped enormously for this sort of customized lesson giving, but now the class sizes are bigger and there is no assistant. To compensate the teachers now trade students for an hour a day and group them by ability group. This isn't as good as before because the groups are the size of a full classroom instead of being 5 students large, but it's the best they can do given the circumstances.

    Just some random thoughts from someone that hears about teaching everyday. 
  • javadewd said on Sep 28, 2009....
    My aunt and uncle are both school teachers and sadly, I mostly agree with bloc... Regardless of his disclaimer... I know, shoot me now before I'm rabid!
  • starchini said on Sep 28, 2009....
    agreed
  • javadewd said on Sep 29, 2009....
    Bi-partisan agreement. No shit. I need a drink...
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 29, 2009....
    Seriously next step is to spread the word and make sure this doesn't come to pass.  That we get common sense ideas working.
  • curmudgeon said on Sep 29, 2009....
    I just wish there were some way of ensuring that children are educated while at the same time de-institutionalizing the educational process. At the same time, why not integrate education with its real-world applications? I understand that some students at higher levels get to do this, but it would be so cool to offer more students the opportunity to be exposed to how what they're learning is practiced at professional levels.

    That's the thing about sports. Every little league ball player can see how professional baseball looks, but the average (or below average) math student doesn't really get exposed to all the applications mathematics has in the real world - engineering, logistics, heck, even calculating batting averages...I could go on.
  • javadewd said on Sep 29, 2009....
    Wait... Wait... That makes too much sense... Head... Throbbing...
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 29, 2009....

    I hate to pop the us all getting along parade here but I gotta disagree Cur.  While I completley support the idea that there should be more vocational learning involved in schools and I believe we need a damn near brand new system I'm not sure how you would expose children to the higher levels of the basic required subjects.

    I mean for example I'm going to blindly ask this question and then you're going to turn out to be a fucking analyst of some kind but in everyday life how many of us use math above and beyond balancing our checkbooks (if we even do that.)  That's not to say we shouldn't teach algebra (and personally I think we should teach the basic concept of algebra as math from day one.  I really fail to see how a blank space is significantly simpler to understand than an X.  2+2=x.  So the concept is already in place when you start trying more complex things.

    We learn history basically so we can debate it in politics.  I mean sure it has some other applications from time to time but they seem to be few and far between and the same goes.  Most job skills are rather specific to that field and I don't see how you could incorporate them into general education smoothly.  Though at this point I think we need to simply pick any country that outscores us and emulate.

  • javadewd said on Sep 29, 2009....
    The Pythagorean Theorem comes in handy for me often, especially when I'm working with angles... Analytical geometry when I'm working with music or other audio media... To leave the bar at Intro Algebra is really going to rob society of its creativity and innovation IMHO... I could easily warp off on a tangent on your history analysis. I am a physics/math guy and I almost failed out of history, but I've found as I got older that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Sad truth.
  • bloc said on Sep 29, 2009....
    I use high level math very regularly at work. Statistics, calculus, probability theory, etc. I do realize that most people don't, but math teaches people how to think critically. It also teaches great abstract patterns one can use for decision making outside of mathematics.

    I'm going to have to keep agreeing strongly with javad. This is truly bizzarro post :) But seriously, math is one of the highest forms of creativity and learning it leads to people capable of innovation.

    I also did poorly in history in grade school, but that's because it was terribly boring. Remember these dates, these names and be able to answer multiple choice questions. However, in college I loved it because it was analytical. We debated the pros and cons of various aspects of history, explored topics via paper writing, etc. In one class everyone had to choose from a list of the seminal supreme court rulings and write a paper and give a presentation on it. Those sorts of things are fascinating and enlightening.

    having said all of that, I think are math education is pretty bad. I believe one of the big reasons is that kids are exposed to people that truly get and like math until late in their education. I haven't met many, if any, elementary school teachers with a degree in math or something similar (physics, comp sci, etc)
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 29, 2009....
    And maybe that is the problem.  And I said in advance you two would manage to be the exceptions to the rule as will everybody who responds.  Nobody here will be a cop, or a Real Estate Agent or a Plumber or a manager for Vons or Reporter or any of the vast majority of jobs that require terribly little math skills to accomplish.  And I'm not trying to downplay the importance of teaching them I'm saying the only person I know who needs those skills in their job is my Mother and she's a teacher.
  • javadewd said on Sep 29, 2009....
    I just think you're counting out closet nerds as well...
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 29, 2009....

    I don't think closet nerds should count.  Granted I'm not exactly a closet nerd. I don't lie about being a DnD fan and world creator and author and what an incredible effect history and science have on my writing or gameplay elements.  But unless it is important to your job I'm not certain it should count.

    Again I feel the need to repeatedly say I'm not suggesting we take these out of the curiculim.  I'm stating that I can't see what "normal" jobs we would bring in and I think we should be teaching children the skills they will need in school, not the skills they MIGHT need.  Sure if you're a palentologist then that whole how much of element A is left after converting to B is left is important to Carbon Dating but I've never needed to Carbon date.

  • javadewd said on Sep 29, 2009....
    I gotta stick up for fractions at least. I guess it's just my inner-nerd...
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 29, 2009....
    I'd rather decimals.  I mean at least that works with money.
  • javadewd said on Sep 30, 2009....
    Bah! Metric system... The fall of our nation!
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 30, 2009....
    We really are stubborn about that shit.
  • javadewd said on Sep 30, 2009....
    Ha! Yeah...
  • bloc said on Sep 30, 2009....
    we haven't talked about the importance of these subjects for a democracy. If people can't think critically, and don't understand basic statistics, then it's hard to make good reasonable decisions about politics. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 30, 2009....

    Which is why I support teaching them.  However we were discussing that a good way to get children to appreciate these skills would be to increase the amount of vocational training in the education system and I don't see that really helping. 

  • javadewd said on Oct 01, 2009....
    Funny, when I was in high school -- you know, here in the fly-over states -- I spent half of my school day in my Junior and Senior year AT a vocational school. Perhaps y'all on the coasts may want to take a gander at our test scores?
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 01, 2009....

    I would be curious.  I do think we need to get more vocational training.  Course you went to school in a bygone era, I'm also curious what people do in school where you live NOW.  But did your vocational training require you to know about D-Day?  Was there something on the job that had you applying the Pythagorean Theorem?  My entire point isn't that these things shouldn't be taught.  It's that increasing the amount of vocational training will not give children the hands on experience with these skills that will make them say "Yes I will need this when I grow up" which I think is a vital part of making them give a shit and not just learn stuff for a test and dump it as soon afterwards as possible.

  • javadewd said on Oct 01, 2009....
    Bygone era? The early 90's -- 1989-93 is a bygone era? Shit, I feel old now! I learned how to program an IBM System/36 and AS/400 mainframe in COBOL and RPG. Other students learned marketing (creative lying), automotive repair, electronics, etc.

    My high school actually had a college preparatory curriculum, so by the time I was in college, everything was just rehashed high school. Yeah, I wish they would have taught people to actually give a shit, but can you honestly teach such a thing in school?
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 01, 2009....
    I think you can.  And yeah the early nineties was almost twenty years ago.  Don't worry I'm old too.  I became old the exact second Rossane and Fresh Prince were on the Oldies stations.
  • javadewd said on Oct 01, 2009....
    Heh. Dude... We're old... I guess when "Easy Lover" is being played on the "Oldies" radio station I simply have to submit to being old, baggy ass and all...

    So exactly what course would students take? Giving a Shit 101?
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 02, 2009....

    I think a major step in getting students to give a shit involves changing our culture so that inteligence is valued rather than frowned upon.  While this is a problem across the board in America it is particularly strong in the Black and Latino cultures where inteligence is often considered "acting white" and is heavily frowned upon.  As much as I dislike Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson up until basically the day before yesterday (ie. Obama) they were pretty much the only blacks that you could point to and say look blacks can acheieve something in this nation (and Condi.  Forgot her for a moment there and Clarence Thomas *that is the judge right, not that anybody gives a shit about judges*)  The rest are entertainers of some sort, rappers and athletes by large but some actors too. 

    That why the Asians eat us alive in education and why they still do even when they come to the United States because it's not so much our system that is flawed it's our culture.  If it was purely our system they wouldn't thrive in it when they get here.

  • javadewd said on Oct 02, 2009....
    Um, Frederick Douglas? I had to do a report about this guy in grade school for Pete's sake. Not to mention the report I did on George Washington Carver for science class in eighth grade! I only wish I would have had the opportunity to study more about Booker T. Washington and others. This shit IS taught in school... These black men would be spinning in their graves to hear how the average black kid wants to grow up to slap bitches, fuck ho's, sip 40's and be a rapper who masters bad grammar.

    When you start talking about changing the culture it reminds me of the 30's, 40's and 50's -- and I try to forget the 60's and 70's! -- where everybody was looking for the clandestine balance between family values and traditions while balancing self-discipline, responsibility and pride. I think at some point it all boils down in the broth of character, which seems to have been lost by Gen-X and Gen-Why(?)...
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 02, 2009....

    I meant people who are alive today.  I wasn't saying anything about teaching in school either.  I meant actual flesh and blood people.  I meant Bill Gates.  I meant General Patraous (however it's spelled) I mean every US surviving US President, Vice President minus one. 

    I purposely didn't mention the black rights leaders either, again all dead people.

  • javadewd said on Oct 02, 2009....
    Bill Gates -- It's better to have a bunch of trial lawyers on retainer and be a college drop-out so that you can buy up all your competition... Wonderful lesson there.

    Don't even get me started on past surviving presidents...

    It just frustrates me that black people throughout history -- at least the ones who actually had the ambition to do something with their lives -- would be throwing today's entitlement-driven blacks in the streets and telling them to go get a fucking job. They can't hide behind their tired excuses anymore. They have to "become white" as they have been comparing Condi Rice and others of doing. Getting educated is met with the label of becoming an "Uncle Tom." It's pathetic.
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 02, 2009....
    You're preaching to the choir here. 
  • curmudgeon said on Oct 02, 2009....
    I was awful at math in high school, which meant I was also awful in physics and chemistry. I was even worse at math in college, and avoided it like the plague.

    Then along comes my days working in TV and I developed my own simple math formula for cutting time out of program segments. You just never know where math can take you.

    I was just thinking that the world outside the classroom uses far more applications for what is learned in the classroom, but educators do not make it obvious to kids. Not just the "if you want to be an astronaut, learn math," stuff.

    Take the physics of skateboarding - how many pounds of pressure will your legs have to generate to lift you and the board on top of a four foot guardrail? How much of a role does the board's flexibility play in such a maneuver? What exercises are best to develop the fast-twitch fibers in your glutes, quads and calf muscles to increase the force they're able to generate?

    Or the economics of running the bodega down the street - how do you manage inventory? What can owners do to improve the interior aesthetics? What cultural cues and furnishings need to be present to attract, say, teachers and cops versus stay at home yuppie moms?

    So much of what kids learn is relevant to their future lives, but for some reason it is presented in a way that seems to have no real world application. What a tragedy.
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 02, 2009....
    Sorry.  Got halfway through and went slightly insane.  Are you honestly claiming that Tony Hawk (maybe no longer the greatest but once upon a time) world class skateboarder does some kind of math equation in his head before attempting the Christ Air?  Maybe at best they do some math to figure if a trick is possible but I doubt even that.  I figure they try and see.  If you prove that skatboarders on average know the math behind how they kick flip I'll STFU.  Until then do the same.
  • javadewd said on Oct 03, 2009....
    I could believe that... Tony Hawk knows physics. He's not just some punk who denies the existence of gravity.
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 03, 2009....
    I'm not claiming he denies gravity in some Road Runneresque way.  I'm saying that while I never met him he looks at a situation and says "I could do that" not "let me crunch the numbers".  I'm not an athlete, I'm a gamer and I don't deny there is a divide.  But I know I've never looked at something and said let me check the programming.  I've said I can do that.  I actually have to hold back a smidge (or need to forge forward) because I seem to have the aptitude to be a pro gamer but pros don't play games they exploit games and I wouldn't be able to play with my friends and more if I did.  Anyway maybe your right, I actually kinda hope you are because if Tony Hawk does the math he's pretty damn smart.  I mean the number of variables between what is physically possible and what he can physically accomplish are pretty out there.
  • javadewd said on Oct 03, 2009....
    I knew a black kid in college who could make a shot from anywhere on the court. Once he was ceased playing ball he became a high school math teacher. He taught sine waves on the basketball court when it was available. His course rocked. At least that's what his students told me. People who say black people are dumb only see those who've we've been talking about here... Those who want to be aspiring rappers... When in all actuality if they all put their talents to good use and not slammed others for "becoming white," they'd practically rule this continent or go back to Africa and make it a world power. As a glow-in-the-dark Caucasian it almost makes me sick to see so much human potential go to waste... Yet I'm the one being called a fucking racist all the time!
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 04, 2009....

    I didn't say blacks didn't have the same potential.  I said that it is not encouraged, in many cases it is actively discouraged and showing examples of it not happening doesn't change what does happen.  Heck half my point is that it's a cultural problem.

    Doubt we'd actually rules this continent or any other but that's for different reasons

  • bloc said on Oct 04, 2009....
    athletes certainly do a form of math in their heads while performing. Cognitive scientists have been doing a lot of work showing that our understanding of almost everything is based on metaphors built on top of our physical experiences in the world. Math is no exception. Tony Hawks brain is judging things like momentum, gravity, direction, etc, very rapidly and very accurately. 
  • curmudgeon said on Oct 04, 2009....
    I did not claim that athletes can express the physics of their feats mathematically, but they can be expressed that way, certainly. As bloc points out, athletes make rapid calculations instinctively. Quarterbacks have to know how far to throw a ball to hit a receiver, which means they have to calculate the angle at which to loft the ball, how hard to throw it, and how to maximize the rotation on the ball so it cuts through the air most effectively.

    That is pure physical physics, and it's something that a great many people can learn to appreciate mathematically as well as aesthetically.

    The force that enables a skateboarder to loft himself into the air is the same force that a rocket uses to lift itself into orbit. Now, not many kids are into rocket science these days, but if they're into skateboarding, maybe we have some new materials scientists out there who could develop boards and wheels and so on that enable boarders to jump even higher.
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 05, 2009....
    Hey if you think you can translate or teach others to translate the instictive "I can do that" into an actual equation go for it.  I just don't think you can.  Just like while I'm a pretty damn good shot (though not legendary by any stretch) I could never put down a math equation or flow chart for how to judge windage.  Just adjust your sites about this much for how much wind you think there is according to the flag.  And I'm using tha tbecause I'm sure an equation could be written but I don't know it nor did I ever meet the Marine who could.  You just felt it out.  If we could translate this info it would be great.  Or ignored because I'm not sure I would listen to you explain the math of a basketball shot because I don't know how to make my muscles exert 3.46 pounds of pressure.  I know enough and not enough and it just feels right.
  • javadewd said on Oct 05, 2009....
    Just as theologians in the Baptist denomination claim that everything is a "mystery," more intellectual denominations like Reformed Presbyterians prefer the idea of understanding why we believe what we believe. Same with Tony Hawk. Sure, to everyone else he has this mysterious talent, which is great and it pays his bills, but to the more intellectual, we want to understand how he does it. I guess it's the whole "teach someone to fish" philosophy...

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