• UnicornForm said on Aug 23, 2009....

  Every stereo type has the fakers. Or the.. lacking whateer you want to call it.
   
  There are genuine people out there and those are the ones you cant always shove into one category.
   
  Actions do speak loud, but some actions are mistakes, and I feel i shouldent judge others, no matter theyre actions, i mmake mistkes to and alll i can do is lead by my actions and hope they are around.

• alabamagirl said on Aug 25, 2009....

  What does being anti universal healthcare have anything to do with religion?  Just trying to figure out how that relates.
  
  I consider myself to be a christian, although I don't think I'm the kind of christian that I need to be.  I fall short so much of the time.  I'm not going to give up but I will keep trying. 
  
  I would like our  government to help people in our own country first before helping other countries.  I feel this way because this is the county I live in.  I feel like each country should help their own country first.  Not that they shouldn't help another country afterward, just take care of their own first.  How is that wrong?
  
  Interesting and debatable topic.
  

• auroralost said on Aug 25, 2009....

  What makes a life in this country more valuable than a life in another country?   Why not look at things as being a citizen of the earth as whole not just the United States.    Universal health care would be helping people helping people.  It should be a given in a country such as ours that if you are well you should get the care that you need and treated in a way that you deserve regardless of your economic situation.  I have health insurance.  I just spent a few days in the hospital due to an infection around my heart recently.  It cost me $2086 just for the hospital stay.  That is my share...what the insurance does not cover.  That is more than I bring home in a month. This does not cover the follow up tests and doctors visits.  I am not saying pity me I need help.   I am saying if I did not have any insurance what so ever going to the hospital would not have been an option for me.  People lose homes over medical bills.   Taking care of others and being willing to help others is a huge part of Christian teaching...and teachings of other religions as well.  I think it's funny that people who say they are Christian would be anti such a huge way of helping others because it would effect their finances.  Money above people does not equal Christian to me.

• UnicornForm said on Aug 26, 2009....

  naw money above god does not equal christian. theres a part in the bible that sias let the fool be a fool, the riteous be righteous and the theif steal etc...
   
  i think its karma from god when i feel as you do.
   
  i do hope things workk out for ya, and they will so donnt fret.

• alabamagirl said on Aug 27, 2009....

  Well aurora, you've got me thinking.  Your right, what makes a life in this country any more valuable than a life in another country?  Absolutely nothing.  You had me thinking about this all day yesterday!
  
  As far as universal healthcare, I don't think that's the answer. I don't know what the answer is, I just don't think that's it.  Just because Americans are uninsured doesn't mean they can't receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don't have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.
  
  A few things I do like about it is that free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early before it turns life threatening or into a major problem affecting their quality of life. 
  
  Patients with pre-existing conditions can still get health coverage.
  
  What I don't like about it:
  
  "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes, expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, who knows what area it may come from.
  
  Stories constantly come out of universal health care programs in Britain and Canada about patients forced to wait months or years for treatments that we can currently receive immediately in America. The government will have to make tough choices about who can treatment first, and who must wait. Patients will like be forced to suffer longer or possibly die waiting for treatment.
  
  Patients aren't likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
  
  Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.
  
  Theres more, but this is enough, enough politics.
  
  Back to religion.  People are not perfect, no matter how hard we try.  Whether we are christians or not, whether we be teachers, parents, government officials or preachers.  I agree that believing in God or not believing in God does not make you better than anyone else and that actions alone speak for who you are. 
  
  But that does not make me not want to be a christian because I know I can't live up to the standards.  I am imperfect, that doesn't mean I shouldn't try or that I shouldn't be a christian.  It just means I want to keep trying, never give up, try to live up to the person I wish to be. 
  
  Is it other peoples actions in a particular faith that have turned you against religion?  Don't give up on religion just because others aren't living up to the expectations they should.  Keep on searching, maybe you can make the change that you wish to see.
  
  
  

• curmudgeon said on Aug 27, 2009....

  Fobbing money off to the government to "help" the uninsured really does not seem like any kind of Christian ministry to me. If you look at the denominations attached to so many hospitals in the United States - Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, St. This and St. That, you will see that American Christians of the 19th and 20th Centuries had a great interest in health care - but they took it up as their own ministry in their own way. They did NOT just hand it off to the government.
  
  I feel your pain at the high co-payments you had to make, but seriously, what entitles you to reach into my pocket (through force of government) so that I have trouble covering my own medical expenses, feeding my own children, paying my own mortgage? If I happen to make a decent income (which I currently do not), who is going to help me when I am in need? You? Some guy wealthier than I am? How do you know that those high co-payments will really vanish once a government system is in place? In politics, promises are routinely made and broken.
  
  Yes, Christians ought to help those in need, for sure. But it has to be THEIR decision and their action, or else it is not ministry. Forced charity is not charity at all. It is just one political party taking from another by force for the "good" of society.
  

• auroralost said on Aug 28, 2009....

  My point is that not being willing to help because it reaches into your pocket...........Is not Christian. 

• curmudgeon said on Aug 28, 2009....

  And my point is that opposing forced redistribution of resources does not necessarily indicate an unwillingness to help.
  
  Quite frankly, I think it is rather presumptuous of you, who someone who isn't Christian, to go around dictating what is Christian and what is not. What qualifies you as an expert on Christan ministry to state this opinion? Why ought Christians listen to you if you don't even stand with them? It's so easy to stand on the sidelines and tell other folk what they're doing wrong. Physician, heal thyself!
  

• auroralost said on Aug 28, 2009....

  Blah blah blah blah............I do not have to be Christian to know about the religion or to have studied it.    I do not claim to be an expert on religion or Christianity.  I did not say the universal health care being purposed should be supported if you are Christian.  I am saying being againt that the idea of a system where all who are sick are helped regardless of their financial status is not Christian.  Help others, all human life has value...so on and so forth...you know the routine. 
   
  Quite frankly....hmmm...trying to be polite....oh fuck it.   Not having a religion is not being on the sidelines.  What an ignorant fucking statement. I am not like you therefore my thoughts, feelings and statements have no merit..........seems like a closeminded viewpoint.  Not having a religion does not change the value of my actions, my life, or my opinions.  Not having a religion does not mean I am uneducated about religion. 
   
  I am not anti religion at all....It is not the choice for me.  I do think if you are with a specific religion and preach that you are then you should live by the principles of the religion and not just wear it as a mask to show others.

• curmudgeon said on Aug 29, 2009....

  Of course you have every right to state whatever opinion you like. My question to you is that if you are not Christian, how do you KNOW what is to be Christian and what is not? You can claim to "study," but your perspective changes once you actually live into a commitment.
  
  What if I as a Christian, do not equate paying more in health care taxes to the government with actually "helping people?" What if I, as a Christian, instead wish to donate directly to hospitals and volunteer my time? What if I as a Christian set my career goal to be one in hospital chaplaincy?
  
  If "charity" is forced, it has nothing to do with any religion other than the religion of the State.
  
  Why is it that you assume that just because some people who consider themselves Christian oppose this particular iteration of health care reform, that they are "against a system where all who are sick are helped regardless of their financial status?"
  
  For a system to be fair, it must be fair to all, not just the neediest ones at the expense of the more well off. If Christ advises the wealthy man to give up all his wealth and follow Him, Christ is not saying so as Caesar, but as a poor itinerant minister. I do not equate this healthcare legislation with the will of God.
  
  If you look at what single-payer, government-run health care is doing to the Native Americans of this country, maybe neither would you.
  
  Why is it that whenever I express an opinion contrary to some "non-Christian" I am the closed-minded one? You are the one who cannot seem to stand hearing contrary ideas.
  

• auroralost said on Aug 29, 2009....

  Ok aparently you have trouble actually reading and understanding what I wrote.   So one my time for the slow ones.................I am not speaking specifically about the proposed health care plan.  Just about universal health care in general.  Universal means universal...regardless of economic status means all aspects of economic status...rich, poor and everyone in between.  Other countries have working health care systems.  You can point out the flaws I am sure but that is not what this post is about.     Next point once again....I am not anti religion nor do I think all christians are hypocrites.  My point was that if you commit to a religion you should live by the principles of it.  Universal health care is just an example, there are many many many others.  To use another example with christianity- passing the man on the street who is homeless and begging for change and dismissing him as a drunk and saying disparaging things about how he does not deserve help.   Smaller ones even...dumping your loved one in a nursing home and never visiting (not anti nursing homes anti abandoning the elderly)...not giving to food pantries on a regular basis if you are finacial able... cutting off people on the highway and giving them the finger with the Jesus bumper sticker on their car.   Ok my point is I think there a good amount of people out there....different religions who way they are that religion and wear there symbol around there neck...they go to there place of worship...they may even teach their kids to pray...but they live a life seperate from the principles of that religion.    I am not saying people are perfect and every aspect of there life will center around the religion, but if your day to life is more contrary to the teaching than in line with them it is bullshit. 

• curmudgeon said on Aug 29, 2009....

  If it takes you three tries to get your point across, perhaps it is because you do not write all that clearly.
  
  We are also taught not to judge others lest we be judged. If some guy with a fish emblem on the back of his car cuts me off and flips me, I am not going to assume that I have the right to say he is not Christian. For all I know this guy is just having a bad day. I might be inclined to say "That is not a very Christian thing to do," but this is a far cry from excommunicating him. Or I might just flip him back and forget about him simply because I will not judge the relationship another person has with God. God alone judges. We are all on our own spiritual journey and achieve our own level of personal maturity through it. It is presumptuous to think we know the will of God for anyone else but ourselves.
  
  It is so easy to point out the flaws of others and judge their actions. What is hard is to try living in their shoes and to forgive their trespasses.
  

• auroralost said on Aug 29, 2009....

  You're right I must not write all that clearly please feel free to not read my posts.    The that's not a christian thing to do is exactly what i am saying.  Saying you are christian but your actions do not support that.    
   
  It is presumptions to think we know the will of God at all....which is why religion is not for me.  It is mans rules on faith.

• curmudgeon said on Sep 02, 2009....

  I read your post because it's interesting.
  
  But it is not your place to judge another's theology by the way they act, particularly if you do not share their faith, nor really understand what their take on theology is.
  
  You may interpret healthcare for all as the Christian thing to do, but a Christian may not express it quite that way. Who are you to say whether or not that person is authentically Christian? Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but where do you come off judging someone's theology - one that you don't even buy into? Surely you see the transgression here.
  
  I mean, you're stating essentially that in order for Christians to fulfill God's will, they must support healthcare for all, and if they don't well they ought not call themselves Christian. The only problem with this is that as you state, you don't know God's will for anyone else, nor do you buy into God's will in the Christian way at all.
  
  I'll still read your posts if you don't mind. I promise I won't argue with you every single time. Sorry if I come off a bit snarky.
  

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