• truthblogs said on Sep 17, 2006....

  I wholeheartedly agree. It's a scientific incompatibility, not just a belief incompatibility. Andone who believes in jihad is ignorant of what love and life is all about.
  
  To be able to love outwardly, you first must love inwardly. The completion of both in every moment is love of life in it's essence. This oversimplified is godliness in it's simplest and most beautiful form. Stick war and killing in there, anywhere in there and the godliness immeiately dissapears, replaced with horrible and ghastly things.
  
  It's a simple thing to test, yet so many muslims(as do many christians - dopn't get me wrong - im not biasing here) think it's ok to spread the word of their prophet by the sword. Kill the infidels, they say, god is great they say, before blowing themselves up.
  
  Well if he's so great, why can't he understand simple science of love?
  
  I, as the pope and indeed mrhowto here are simply questioning the concept of jihad, no more, no less.
  

• bandanna said on Sep 17, 2006....

  it's so true...and if they hate pigs so much(one of gods creatures I might add), why do they all have 'ham' in their names???? HAMmed moHAMmed etc????
  

• mrhowto said on Sep 17, 2006....

  lol, think I just wet myself at that one. Sorry, well...no not sorry really, the whole world are getting pissed off with it all. The good muslims, if indeed there are some, need to stand up and sort the rest of their bunch out. It's a horibble mess, and it's not our mess to have to keep cleaning up. But I'm sure someone like Israel will eventually crack and attempt(violently no doubt) to sort it all out once and for all.
  
  Let's hope it doesn't have to come to that. Other cultures are trying t really hard to understand and accept muslims into their cities, lives and so on, but are finding it so difficuly, because they're not willing to change one bit to try and integrate.
  
  Because they all think they are so superior, they think everyone should change around them. It has to work both ways.
  

• londontemptress said on Sep 17, 2006....

  I agree, they're never happy. We let them come to england, give them a house, job, money, health serivice, build mosques, take extended work breaks in order to pray and so on.
  
  What do they do in return? Bring up their children to kill the infidels and non-belivers, and moan that we don't let them integrate enough. Well fuck off back to the middle east then! We are not racist, we love people from other cultures and countries, but when we get stabbed in the back for our kindness, it kinda takes the piss.
  
  I couldn't see ANY muslim country allowing westerners to go to their country and have the kind of freedoms we give them here.
  
  It's a case of double standards if you ask me.
  

• mrhowto said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Glad some of you agree, it's a scarry time we live in, and nothing seems to be getting done about it. It's time the ordinary man and woman stood up and let the governments know that this kind of thing is unacceptable.
  
  I find it an insult to decent intelligent human beings that the pope is even being asked to apologise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with his question. For that's all it was.
  
  But you can count on the muslims to blow it out of context, then they wonder why we don't want them to integrate with us.
  

• RollingC said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Fanatics of any kind or creed are just that....fanatics...
  Who likes dealing with them?
  

• MadameSosostris said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Oi! Cool the rabidness, blast it! Your words are so very hostile they send shivers up my ancient spine!
  
  I applaud anyone who speaks out against violence in the name of ANY cause. But if you speak out about it, and especially if you hold a very important and influential office, your words should be very measured, and very responsible, especially at this very volatile time in history. The world is a mighty big place, with many different peoples, and to use the example the Pope used without elaboration, or comment, was like throwing a lit match in a gasoline soaked house.
  
  The Muslim religion is in a time of volatile transition, and you are only going to help fuel the wrath of the radicals, and the ire of the common citizen with an action such as the Pope's. Not all Muslims are terrorists, and I would think people of any religion would speak out forcibly were they so slandered. The Old Testament is FULL of similar proscriptions as that of the Koran, but would anyone stand up today and say that Judaism, or even Christianity, is inherently evil or bad simply because the Old Testament states we should stone adulteresses to death? And this is just one example of many, many violent proscriptions laid out in the Bible. And do not forget the very many atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity before it had evolved many hundreds of years.
  
  And while we must abhor the violence, we cannot forget that many Muslims have absolutely no means of speaking out besides violence. Many live under hostile governments that would kill their families should they speak out--about anything. They have no rights and no means to right any wrong done against them. Not to mention that many live in nations that are impoverished and undereducated.
  
  This is a VERY volatile time in the world's history, and anything anyone in power can do to help lessen that volatility, to help build bridges instead of burning them, would seem to me to be the best way of going about things.
  
  Yours in Deepest Respect for Healthy Dialogue,
  
  Madame S.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Madame, I respectfully believe that some (not all) of your comments are a step backward in this discussion.
  
  Jihad is selfish. The 9/11 terrorists, suicide bombers, etc., "sacrifice" themselves by blowing up themselves and others to make a statement. They kill in the name of Allah while killing Allah's children. Holy contradiction, Batman!
  
  The Pope quoted a medieval dude who simply pointed this out centuries ago - spreading the faith by the sword is foolhardy. How many people worldwide have converted to Islam because of terrorist attacks or suicide bombers? Pretty much, only Muslim extremists.
  
  As for the backward comments:
  
  1) Apparently, the Pope neither endorsed nor denied the quoted individual. Food for thought.
  
  2) How can you accuse the Pope of burning bridges when palestinians were attacking and burning the walls and doors of at least 5 churches in the past week as retaliation? In pointing out the speck in the Pope's eye, they ignored the plank in their own eyes.
  
  3) The Bible has some extreme cases of justice. If you sinned, and were caught, or didn't atone, well..the wages of sin is death. But Jesus arrived to make everything new, so that our sin could be forgiven, instead of grounds to kill us. Followers of Jesus understand that "those who live by the sword, die by the sword." That quote from Jesus alone debunks Muhammed's idea of spreading faith by the sword. And remember, Pope John Paul II already apologized for past atrocities such as the Crusades.
  
  At most, the Pope touched upon a teaching of Muhammed that suggested one thing; maybe Islam is wrong. It's entirely possible, because there are false religions that do nothing but serve our own interests in a selfish way. I don't claim to know exactly how Islam is wrong, but when all is said and done I will stick to Jesus Christ, who taught us all a message of love, not of violence.
  

• MadameSosostris said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Dearest Man,
  
  And I respectfully submit that Jihad as we understand it, is a metaphor in the Koran, such as the Bible has many metaphors, which are easily misinterpreted and put to bad use by bad, evil people. And of course the men who committed the 9/11 atrocity were evil! As were the men who committed the Oklahoma City Bombings. As are the men and women who bomb to death doctors and nurses at Abortion Clinics. As are all murderers, no matter their religion, cause they are "fighting" for, etc.
  
  The men who committed the 9/11 atrocity may have all been Muslim, but it was Al Qaeda and it's leader who made it a religious issue, and hence in the process stained said religion. Osama Bin Laden and his followers hate the Western World for many reasons, and only one of them is what they see as the Western World's corrupting influence of their very, very radical rendition of Islam--one that bears absolutely no resemblance to the Islam practiced by most peace-loving Muslims.
  
  Are all Christians evil because a radical church bombs an abortion clinic?
  
  Are all former military members evil because a former disgruntled military member carried out the Oklahoma City Bombings?
  
  No. True Islam does not teach that you must kill those who will not convert. Many radical sects do, as well as many Muslim governments. This we SHOULD condemn, but I believe it must be done sensibly and rationally, and for the most part by the Muslim community itself. Which IS happening, perhaps not enough, but it is, nonetheless, although it is not reported in mainstream media. Do some research, if you should be interested, right here on the Internet, and you shall see what I mean.
  
  And all this contention over religion--my religion is better than yours, you are evil, etc., does no one any good at all, just causes more strife, which will lead to violence in places like Palestine where the people have been disempowered and had no voice to use but violence. No this is not right, but if you think deeply enough about it and educate yourself on the back-history, at least you will understand where that particular violence comes from.
  
  And some of the first comments were so vitriolic they remind me of Hitler's when he defended the need to wipe out the Jews. They were the cause of all the world's problems, right? So exterminate them and all the world's problems will be solved. Very sad, and very scary . . . And the cause of much violence and hatred, even today . . .
  
  Yours,
  
  Madame S.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 17, 2006....

  You've got some good points, Madame. I do have compassion for the violence-ridden Middle East. I don't see Islam as a war-mongering religion, and I don't label them all on the same level as the extremists. You're right madame, all muslims or christians can't be judged according to the worst of their kind.
  
  As for contention over religion, it gets hairy when one religion claims to be right, over all others. If it is truth, wouldn't that make all other religions somewhat untrue? Christians will take the truth and share it with others, judge others, or bomb abortion clinics. Muslims will take the truth and share it, train terrorists, or bomb buildings. It definitely goes both ways.
  
  But we have to consider this: did Muhammed endorse violence or didn't he? For example, Jesus did not condone violence in neither His life nor His teachings, so Christian extremists can be pointed out accurately as perverting the Gospel. Can we look at what Muhammed said and see if the Pope's quote was accurate? Are there teachings in Islam that exist somewhere that condone violence by its believers to promote the faith? If so, then that's perfect justification for Muslim extremists to take it and run with it. Should the Pope have to apologize if he quoted someone who spoke something true (but harmful) to Islamic beliefs? What if it rattled their cage because it's a genuine flaw in their religion? Just because someone is pissed doesn't mean they're right.
  
  As for the comments on the "backward" stuff madame, I simply felt that bringing up Christian atrocities in the past were already touched upon in this discussion. Further, I felt that the Pope's comments were much less offensive than the retaliation by a group of palestinians. I am sorry if the comments were incendiary. I pointed out the problem but didn't offer much of a solution. I do, though, wish to say that there will always be people who get religion wrong. My final say is that the Gospel of Jesus outshines the truths of any other religion, because it teaches a relationship with God over traditions, customs, or practicing religion as a family or cultural ritual over personal worship.
  

• Astrapsee said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Madame:
  We have to go by reality; noble thoughts like "all religions have fanatics" don't wash anymore. The reality is:
  -Muslims have trouble with every other religion or culture, in India with Hindus, in Europe with Christian/Western culture, in Israel/West Bank with Jews, in Thailand with Buddhists, in Chechnya with Russians, in the Phillipines with Christians etc. All other faiths have learned to live in peace with others. Christians live pretty peacefully in Lebanon, India, Egypt, etc; Hindus live peacefully in England, US, Indonesia, Buddhists live peacefully in many countries with other religions etc.
  -Muslims deal with diagreement by issuing death fatwas (remember Rushdie?), I haven't heard even fundamentalist Christians doing that in any country.
  -Muslim men kill their sisters in the name of honor, yet frequent the brothels of Europe & don't think twice of having Western girlfriends before marriage. And they constantly criticize Western women for being immoral (ie, premarital sex, wearing miniskirts or bikinis!).
  -There is a pervasive intolerance in Islam to this day. What happened in medival times really is irrelevant, yes many Christians were intolerant then, but we're not living in 1453.
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 17, 2006....

  I agree, and we all feel that one religion feels so insecure that, any perception that someone says a word against it will be killed in righteousness! In the same breath, I think the Christians should shoot Madonna, don't you think? For a start . . . .
  However, I think MrHowto should delete anonymous comments, that's not right or moral, and shows the lack of testicles in confronting an issue in a mature way!
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 17, 2006....

  And we should read the comments of Astrapsee thoughtfully. It's an accurate account of our times........
  

• MadameSosostris said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Dearest Lidstrom82,
  
  I was not, Dear Man, referring to your comments. I was referring to Anonymous' and quite frankly some of Mr. Howto's and Londontemptress.
  
  And why, Sir, must you insist that your religion is superior to any other? There IS only one God, afterall, no? And to argue over which way of worship is better is moot and O so very unnecessary. It helps feed intolerance, righteousness and fear of the "other." Dogma and righteous religiosity, in fact, had been the causes of so many of mankind's problems, and I think we would all do well to worship as we so choose--if we choose to do so at all--and leave others to worship as they choose.
  
  And we must remember, above all, that the majority of the Muslim world has only recently been exposed to the Modern Western World. Think how frightening that would be to you! I mean, because of this exposure, their world has been shocked into change that must feel catastrophic. And they are fighting to maintain their equilibrium, for change of such a radical short is extremely disruptive and horrifying. Suddenly everything you've ever believed is being spat upon and dirtied by an outside world you never dreamed existed . . . This is what I meant when I said Islam was in the process of volatile transition, and the rest of the world must unfortunately bear the brunt of the inevitable violence that is caused by trying to hold on to your past--no king ever willingly gives up his throne--at least not without a fight.
  
  And I did not mean to slight the Pope. He was making a very intellectual speech at a University, and was understood by the intellectuals, but not, unfortunately, by the common masses. And also it has been reported that his exact words were mistranslated. My point was simply that being such a powerful and influential man, he has the responsibility--and this is HUGE--to make sure everything he says is clear and unequivocal to the ENTIRE world.
  
  Yours,
  
  Madame S.
  

• mypolitik said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Hi guys..
  Being a moslem myself, I can't help it but to say a few words to my friends in here.
  
  I'm not going to condemn/critisise anybody or any religion or Soulcast service. All this while, Soulcast is open to any discussion that is construction but destructive. Yet, when the question of one's religion is discussed not in a theological manner, misinterpretation is bound to exists.
  
  As a Pope that represents the Catholic Churchgoers, he personally should have not touch in discussing about other religions in public. I agreed that misinterpretations by others would follow. I know some of you have a higher intelligence as compare to others but we must understand that not all people are capable to digest or even read between the lines. So, stop condemning any religions or the religions of mono God such as Islam, Christianity or Judaism.
  
  As for myself, I can't condemn any of the religions mentioned above as their prophets are mine too. From Adam to Noah, to Abraham to Jesus.... are mine to remember.
  
  The only thing that make the whole world gone mad is, not understanding each one's religion in a wide context. No religions in this world encourage killings human beings.
  
  The issue of the Palestine and Israel actually not based on religion but the issue of occupation since 1948. As we know Jews claimed that some part of the Middle East are theirs since the dawn of Man. It is not the issue, I iterate again, NOT religious war! Some of them make religion as the main issue!
  
  Being a moslem fundamentalist, the word 'fundamental' itself has been misinterpreted by the Western countries and infact they have acknowledged that the word above is wrongly used out of context. Fundamentalist meant, the practicing the basic requirement stated in Islam.
  
  Terrorist in another hand are always referred to the moslem which i strongly disagree.
  
  Unfortunately most of the terrorists were moslem. They have been oppressed for so long in the countries they were in for many years.
  
  Just imagine our own kids being oppressed in our own very home. They shall counter whatever we try to teach them. They shall rebel. Rebellion might be the word. Not terrorist.
  
  Anyone can claimed to be the said terrorists. Just to spark more fire???
  
  We can't eat Pork/Ham due to God's word in the Quran. Reason is simple, due to the hygienic purposes. In a pig it has a tape worm that can withstand very high temperature and hard to die. One inside our human body, the tape work shall grow very long and will suck all the nutrition that we've been eating. We cannot consume alchoholic drinks too due to health reasons as we know that alchohol can damage our liver, can damage our brain, can make us confused that can lead to ill-driving, killing innocent people, rape people...
  
  Every religion is good. Islam never force anyone to be into Islam. Your religion is free to be practice. Only some people misinterpret the meaning of Islam thus creating confusion in the name of Islam. It is a sad thing to see.
  
  I wish I've been thorough in my explanation regarding Islam in Summary.
  

• MadameSosostris said on Sep 17, 2006....

  Yes, Dearest Man, you have been very clear and very truthful, and it is wonderful that we have heard from a Muslim! And I agree with you that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict has always been over terrority, but I cannot place blame on either side--both sides have made grievous errors over the years--except to say that I sincerely hope that can learn to live side by side, and at peace, soon . . .
  
  Yours, Madame S.
  

• Astrapsee said on Sep 18, 2006....

  I am perplexed by mypolitik's comments!
  Muslims have been oppressed in many countries? Like where? Throughout history they have come as conquerors to other countries. Did the Zoroastrians invade Arabia or did the Muslims invade Persia? Did the Hindus invade Muslim lands or did the Muslims invade India? Is there any impediment to any Muslim practicing his religion in any country today (other than the remaining Communist nations, where nobody can practice religion)? Just try building a church or synagogue in Saudi Arabia! Look, I'm opposed to the Iraq War for practical reasons, I don't think it has anything to do with the war on terror & we wont achieve anything there. But that doesn't mean Muslims are oppressed, Saddam was oppressing Iraqis a whole lot more. As to Madame's Sosotris' comment (hate to criticize her, I'm such a fan of TS Eliot), all those gooey thoughts of lets live in peace & love, well, those who kill their own sister for "dishonoring" their family wont have a whole lot of love for infidels.
  

• MadameSosostris said on Sep 18, 2006....

  You know what you remind me of, Astraspsee? The spoiled little boy who loves to hear his own unthought-out and uninvestigated words, cuz Mama has stroked his very overblown ego and thus fed his very unhealthy arrogance much too long!
  
  Muslim's are repressed and brainwashed all over the world--look at Saudi Arabia, O Darling of Only Your Mamma Dimwit, the country you are accusing, and rightly so, of killing their females to protect the family's honor! The Kingdom of Saudia Arabia--meaning the King and his immediate family ONLY--do NOT practice Islam in any manner shape or form--they simply REQUIRE the entire rest of the country to proscribe to what the retrograde and repressively radical Imam's say, while they do whatever the hell they want . . .
  
  So who should we blame there, Mr. Know-it-all?
  
  Absolutely and With All Certainty NOT yours,
  
  Madame S.
  

• MadameSosostris said on Sep 18, 2006....

  And O, just to add to my already livid rant, you are now officially poxed and hexed, not to mention, boxed, for your O so Hasty and Over-blown Sense of Self-Importance! The world is a MUCH different place than the times you describe, and you know what, I'd much rather be a repressed Muslim than an Arrogant Hate-Spewing Westerner raised on McDonald's and the Idiot Box anyday! People of your character, such as I will liken to Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannitty, are all sickening and genetic mutants from some depleted planet--possibly the now defunct Pluto--that will soon lose it's source of oxygen and thus make this a better world for everyone!!!! Can we only hope!!!!!
  

• MadameSosostris said on Sep 18, 2006....

  And you are only opposed to the Iraq war for PRACTICAL REASONS?! What in Satan's Worst Vision of Hell are you? Do you not count the HUMAN cost, at all? Are you so arrogant as to believe that practicality even matters any more when the fate of humanity itself weighs so heavily in balance? You are an unrealistic, spoiled and absolutely rotten soul I have not had the misfortune of running into for a very long time, except in the O So Evil American media. Roil in your arrogance and misinformation, O Soulless One, and do not ask anyone who actually cares at all about the fate of this planet to give One Little Damn about your O So Deserved and Coming-Quickly Fate!
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 18, 2006....

  Mypolitik,
  I have no problems with your views, which I find reasoable. I wish all the Muslims shouting for the pope's blood now, would behave in the same manner.. I think the Pope was trying to be academic, and nothing else, why do you have to go to war, because he may have used some inappropriate words to describe Islam in the 15 century, or so? I think it is due to your religious teachers who have nothing better to do... I wish they would go blogging also.... Again, my appreciation for your maturity. You just have to talk to your fellow Muslims to think that way!
  

• fundaguru said on Sep 18, 2006....

  No one needs to apologize!
  
  Unfortunately, the actions and reactions to this whole debate is apologetic.
  
  I appreciate that people have their reasons to state what is right or wrong. The concerns raised by you are perfectly valid. The language isn't. It is as violent as an act of violence. Unfortunate, that we are missing the point. The vocabulary used by muslims, christians and all others is what needs to be looked at. The impact of it lasts long. Is recorded in memory.
  
  In fact, it is the language which is complicating every issue today. Otherwise, why is there a need to clarify everything which is said. Everyday you find people making comments, subsequently there is a demand to clarify, apologize, then restatements, and the vicious cycle continues.
  
  Communication today is more violent and is instigating people against people. It has happened in the past, (a la Hitler), it is happening now.
  
  Do I see the German connection somewhere???
  

• mrhowto said on Sep 18, 2006....

  Hi All,
  
  Thank you all for you're civilised and well thought out answers to this debate. I have deleted those comments by the anonymous individual - how childish.
  
  I agree that in this day and age, things should be debated in a civilised way, and feel sorry for those who can't control themselves enough to have to resort to violence. It's a sad state of affairs.
  
  I brought up this issue, as I feel that as a non-religious person, I could stand back and not have a biased view of religions, therefore try and take a clearer judgement of it all.
  
  MadameSosostris - thanks for you're wonderful amount of input into this topic. Apologies If my statements seemed a little 'heated', this issue did wind me up, and perhaps I let it get the better of me for a short while, and for that I apologise. However, tand by the fact that, although the Pope is a person of great influence, he had every right to bring up the issue, if indeed it was something he obviously feels strongly about. Is it reason-enough to censor saying something, simply to not upset a few people who will take it out of context. Surely we should be past that stage, where such things should matter. If the man wants a debate, can't someone sit and give him this debate.
  
  What he actually quoted was "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
  
  What he is saying here, is that everything else Muhammad brought into Islam, was already written in other religions. The only new stuff such as to "spread by the sword the faith", is evil and inhuman.
  
  I dohn't have to be religious to see that this is an ignorant statement - hence stand by the fact that the pope should not have to apologise.
  
  Everyone is allowed freedom of expression, in fact, I feel the pope has pointed out perhaps a fundamental problem with Islam, which perhaps should be brought up and discussed further, to try and extract what was really menat by it if in fact it may have been a metaphor for something else.
  
  Muslims, tell is what it means, help us understand these issues, and in turn it will help us understand you better too.
  
  All we see is what the media portrays of Islam, and I know for a fact there is a lot more to it than that, and I know how much the media like to twist and turn things just to make a story.
  
  Lets not go down the line of wars such as Iraq war, israel vs palestine - although these are largely religiously fueled, they are also political issues, which can cloud things no end. Mr Bush & Mr Blair, despite being heads of their respective countries, are not and should not be seen as representatives of the church and spreaders of crusades. I know for a fact Mr Blair at least is in no way religiously fueled, as he welcomes in more people of different faiths and religions into the UK than most of the British people want. He lets them build their temples and have free will - so much free will that they have been able to preach fanatical hatred within this country, the country which has given them so much freedom.
  
  So, this is not the issue, let's keep on tracks and see where it goes ;)
  
  Back to you my fellow readers...
  
  p.s.
  
  mypolitik - you sound like a very reasonable moslem, and I'm glad you have come here to contribute to the debate.
  
  lidstrom - great input as ever ;)
  
  Astrapsee - welcome :P
  
  Susmaryosep - howdy again.
  

• mrhowto said on Sep 18, 2006....

  Oh yeah, some of the tags mr anonymous added are well out of order, could everyone mark them as bad tags, and hopefully they'll go away eventually.
  
  Cheers
  

• elia_ann said on Sep 18, 2006....

  Hi everyone,
  
  Not all Muslims are terrorists you know. As a Muslim myself I do not agree with 'honour killings'. I also do not agree with the merciless killings that they did with the kidnapped hostages. But you have to know why Muslims around the world are more sensitive nowadays is because we are all being branded terrorists after the 11/9 attack. Any comments or negative statements regarding ISlam will surely cause an uproar in the muslim community.
  Hey Sus,
  Fancy seeing you here.
  Even if the Pope was trying to be academic, I don't think talking on other peoples religion is not a good choice.
  

• mrhowto said on Sep 18, 2006....

  No one here said or implied that muslims are all bad...we know they're not.
  
  We just want to know if they all truly believe Mohammed's line "to spread by the sword the faith".
  
  Surely you can see why non-muslims find this a concern.
  
  If it is to be taken literally, and all muslims do actually believe this statement to have nothing wrong with it, then we do have a problem, don't we?
  
  I think that's what the Pope was trying to get at.
  
  Find me ONE muslim, who will say that this scentence, a scentence by their very own prohpet, is incorrect and/or badly constructed scentence - then we'll be getting somewhere.
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 18, 2006....

  elia_ann
  Hello, yes we must meet more often, as this widens our experience in soulcast!
  

• Dancougar said on Sep 18, 2006....

  The popo should not apologize, but be apologetic. I mean he shoud explain and clarify what he said (which he and others lie you did) but not take it back.
  

• Astrapsee said on Sep 18, 2006....

  Madame Sosostris:
  I criticized your comments, you responded with ad hominem & personal attacks, that shows a poverty of logic.
  As to Muslims being oppressed, who are oppressing them in Arab countries, Christians? Hindus? Scandinavians? And the response to the corruption of those Sheiks & Emirs is...to kill innocent people in other countries?
  As to the Iraq War, if it really helped eradicate terrorism, well, the human cost of war is very sad, & should be avoided as much as possible, but what can you do when you have to dea with, say, a Hitler or a Bin Laden? Let them do whatever they want to avoid human cost? That's why I fully supported the Afghan War (& despite the human cost there, I think most Afghans are glad to get rid of the Taliban).
  Also, maybe you didn't realize from my posts, I neither grew up in America (how many Americans you know would identify the source of Madame Sosostris?), nor am a Christian. So you see how your misguided your assumptions are. And BTW I abhor the Bill O'Reilly types, who helped propagate the misinforamtion that led to the Iraq War.
  

• MadameSosostris said on Sep 18, 2006....

  Dearest Astrapsee,
  
  My attack on you stemmed from the arrogance and lack of sensitivity you employed in making your comments. Arrogance breeds contempt, at least to those who understand what it is
  and rightly revile it. As I revile the Bill O'Reilly's, Rush Limbaugh's and Sean Hannity's of this world for their irresponsible behavior. They twist the facts, they think the only opinion that counts is theirs, and they discount logic where logic is critically due.
  
  They are, in fact, very guilty of misguiding and manipulating a huge portion of the American population that cannot, unfortunately, either think for themselves, or bother to take enough time away from their soulless entertainment and meaningless distractions to educate themselves with the truth. This is sad beyond words . . .
  
  And it is the Radical Muslim Governments and Relgious Leaders who are corrupt, and who hold their citizens as political and religious prisoners. How can you condemn the citizens when they have absolutely no control over their present and future, when there every thought and movement is tracked and punished by psychopathic religious leaders? And when the common Muslim citizen commits an act of violence, who bears the ultimate responsibility? The people are always a direct reflection of their leaders, their environment and their education or lack thereof.
  
  And you are right. ALL murderous criminals, especially those as heinous as Hitler and Bin Laden, SHOULD be hunted down and brought to the harshest judgement. I never once, in my above commentaries, suggested we should EVER make apologies for murderers and those who perpetrate violence on others. I was simply trying to help us all, through thoughtful dialogue, understand what it is going on in our world and why.
  
  And again, you are right when you say the Taliban and Saddam Hussein are heinous tyrants, and that both countries are better off without either. But the Taliban is making an ugly reappearance all over the country, and it will be YEARS, if not decades, before they are completely gone. The Afghans, and all citizens of similar countries will have to fight with every thing good and progressive in their souls to eradicate their stain. As it will be in Iraq, too. And Iran, and Saudi Arabia, etc. People, no matter their religion, will only remain repressed, violated and spat upon for so long before they rebel and revolt. History is full of this very important lesson.
  
  And there will be more blood spilled and MUCH of it, VERY MUCH, mark my words, as this process of soul liberation unfolds. The Muslim world is on the precipice of a very sheer cliff, and what we shall behold will not be pretty, nor will it be defensible. But it WILL happen, of that you can be sure.
  
  Let us look to helping ease this process as much as we can, by not condoning intolerance, speaking with sensitivity and thoughtfulness, and educating ourselves through the study of history, and the present, as much as possible . . .
  
  Yours,
  
  Madame S.
  
  P.S. I apologize for my personal attack--I am an ancient crone and crank who sometimes becomes so soul-inflamed the words fly out of my mouth with stunning venom. And I officially remove the pox, hex and box, that was not very nice of me! And I am VERY impressed and moved that you know the source of my moniker! O, if we could only meet for a cup of tea--or a few good snorts of Mr. Bourban--how much we would enjoy ourselves decanting Mr. Eliot's brilliant words!
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 18, 2006....

  My, my, the 'transformation' of Madamesosostris reminds me of many of O. Henry's novels...... a "doctor and Jekyll" twist in personality...... I am happy....
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 18, 2006....

  Did anyone see the headline today about al-qaida claiming doom on the Pope and the Western world? Them's fightin' words if I've ever heard it. Despite the fact that U.S. Forces have captured some high-ranking terrorist leaders, the American population, it seems, just wants to ignore the fact that if Islam extremists had their way, we'd all be dead.
  
  America is in Iraq right now to stabilize the country that was under Hussein's rule. It's the same thing as occupying Germany after World War II, or even occupying the South in the Reconstruction after the Civil War. In titanic conflicts like the world wars, single battles saw thousands, even millions, or men die. And yet when we hear of 2 soldiers who die, we're screaming for them to come home. Do we not care for the Iraqi's that live in fear of bombings every day? They don't share our luxury of safety.
  
  The terrorists see us as spoiled and greedy, and that has only been reinforced by anti-war sentiment. Essentially, we will defeat ourselves by giving up before we catch all the terrorists. As the dominant superpower of the world, shouldn't we try to help those who can't help themselves? Or are we so comfortable that we should leave others to their fate? You know, Hitler gained power because too many countries simply appeased him in exchange for their own safety. Pearl Harbor changed all that for us. 9/11 changed it temporarily, but now we're pining for bringing the boys back home.
  
  Vietnam still has lasting effects on us, it seems. We won every major engagement we fought in in Vietnam, but because the cause of democracy fell along with South Vietnam to Communist forces, we shunned the returning troops and only in the last few decades have they been honored.
  
  Human nature dictates that when we get hurt, we close up and get afraid of getting hurt again. It's like a previous generation's hurt (Vietnam) is making us wary of going to war again - unless it's a sure victory (the Gulf War). But now that we're facing a new enemy that is too cowardly to fight us in the open, and it isn't a sure thing, we're flinching.
  
  What happens when the next president brings the troops back, and we get attacked by terrorists soon after? The scary thing is that the terrorists aren't big on forgiveness - the Pope's words only added fuel to their fire to defeat us. God is leading them to destroy their enemies, so they say.
  
  This is why, Madame, I hold Christianity as the one truth, even above the "religion" that judgmental or fundamentalist Christians may make it. We all need Jesus to learn forgiveness from, that didn't condone violence, that leaves the Bible for us to clearly point out and debunk its own extremists.
  
  Here's an explanation as to why I'm adamant about it: If 2 + 2 always equals 4, and a kindergartner answers 22, we will respect that they gave an answer, but we'll tell them that 4 is the correct answer. We don't count their answer as correct just so we don't hurt their feelings - we tell them the truth. That is NOT hating the child, it is correcting them.
  
  That, on a very simple level, is why I will champion Christianity over any other religion. Some misinterpreted this as hating or disrespecting other religions...but if their answer is 22 instead of 4, so to speak, I would rather give them the correct answer than let them get the wrong idea.
  
  This whole post has pointed to inter-religion hostility. What if the Pope's quote was right?
  
  Shouldn't a religion demand your undying devotion, because the god or deity you worship is so good that would sacrifice your life on its truth? Christianity ascribes to this because Jesus died for every living person on Earth, whether they recognize it or not. Having a relationship with God the Father and Jesus the Savior is a real relationship, and that rises above other faiths.
  
  It was said that "every religion" is good. But that's akin to saying that 2 + 2 equals 22, 2, 5, 4.1, etc. Every answer sounds good in some way, and that's why a religion with little truth to it will still be followed: it allows someone to believe something comfortable without ever questioning whether or not they are wrong.
  
  I hope that clears up the difference between showing someone the truth and disrespecting/hating them. Before we're quick to dismiss Jesus Christ as the one and only savior, consider that everything He taught prepared us for contentment, everything He suffered allows us to share every suffering we have with Him, and that everything we will face in life is known to God, and so He cares for us enough to let His Son die so that we wouldn't suffer even more. Who doesn't want hope for the future? Who doesn't want some understanding or control of where their life is headed? Who doesn't want someone who understands everything we suffer through? Jesus reached me before I even knew who He was. Before I even knew a thing about Christian theology, dogma, doctrine, whoodeewhatwhat. I'd really want everyone here to experience that in favor of all the suffering we see each other go through in our posts every single hour.
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 18, 2006....

  I got a headache reading through half of the post above.. Unfortunately, al Qeada don't read such posts. If one side is tolerant, and th other behaves like an arsehole, there is no way this 'terrorist' issue is going to end. Only way, is to isolate races by religion, and watch each other with suspicion, trouble is Americans want the Middle East oil.......
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2006....

  I'm sorry about the headache, Susma...it's just further proof that your brain is working. :)
  
  I say, I agree with you. It won't end very soon. Wars and hostilities will continue until Jesus returns. Until that, we love even our enemies and do not make attempts to destroy them.
  
  But the American agenda also includes justice for 9/11, oil reserves, and national security. Dang, that's a full plate.
  
  Everything will be all good, someday. Until then we just have to make sure we're not the side behaving like an arsehole...
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 19, 2006....

  Until Jesus returns, or as Nostradamus 'predicts', the yellow race will take over thw world.... Bet this will scare the shit out of any al qeada reading your blog.. hahahahahah
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 19, 2006....

  haha...oh dear.
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 19, 2006....

  Commenting is fun! :-)
  

• elia_ann said on Sep 20, 2006....

  I totally on Sus's comments that the Americans want the Middle East Oil if not why would they attack Iraq?!?!
  
  But I approve of Saddam getting caught though, for all the bad things he had done during his reign.
  
  And I don't really support the Al-Qaeda group for mercilessly slaughtering their hostages! And I mean really slaughter, as I saw a live video on one of their killings. They litterelly just slice the head off from his body!! So damn cruel!! (sorry for the bad language!)
  
  How can the Muslims not retaliate on such statements when things like what the Israeli's are doing to the Lebanese,who are majority Muslims and killing mostly innocent childrens??
  The war on Taliban in Pakistan but actually killing more innocent civilians than the Talibans??!?!!?
  Remember the Iraqi prisoners?!??!?
  
  I just think that we should judge each other moreover if we are not from the same religion. Why not just let God punish them?!
  

• elia_ann said on Sep 20, 2006....

  Sorry guys,
  there had been some typo error in my comments.
  
  It should read:
  
  1) I totally agree on Sus's..........
  
  2) I just think that we should not judge........
  

• Firstthingsfirst said on Sep 21, 2006....

  Its ironic isn't it? The Muslim community is angry about their religion being link to violence. So how do they react? With violence - rioting, burning evigies of the pope, threatening him...
  
  *Sigh* Islam does not need to be an aggresive religion. I think that comes from its immaturity and insecurity. Christianity went through a violent phase as well, but no longer do christians feel the need to spread their word by the sword. [Note, Im not a practicing Christian.]
  
  
  And jihad doesnt have to mean violent struggle. A jihad can be a war of ideas, or a struggle against one's inner, unreligious demons. Sadly, the extremist view is the one most widely known. Moderate muslims must get their voice heard more - their religion is getting a lot of bad press at the moment.
  

• elia_ann said on Sep 21, 2006....

  Jihad actually should be used if we are being attacked physically for no reason by the non-muslims.
  Now they are using it for all the wrong reasons.
  :-(
  

• no_nom said on Sep 25, 2006....

  I prefer not to pick side, but Actions and Reactions speak for itself. Actions on killing innocents because of few words or a lousy cartoons. Reactions on call on violent based on opinions and views differences. Religions are men greatest creation for the last thousands of years. It supposes to use it as a form of power manipulation and to oppress evil within us, instead it brought out the ugliness and stupidity...
  
  Most people are like flog of sheeps, nevermind where your from. But if one let hatred over powered, balck will become darkness and white will be black. Particular in the Islamic world, many prefer using their 'S' to think then analyst.
  
  We still have a long way to improve in this not so civilize's civilized world.
  

• Susmaryosep said on Sep 25, 2006....

  Ego causes all the problems in the world........ anything can be traced to it... Just think back...
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 26, 2006....

  Ego...that's what the Bible would refer to as pride, and it definitely, totally causes most of our problems. For instance, when religious people put selfish desires or Jesus, or Muhammed, etc., that pride usually screws us over. When a Christian will attack an abortion clinic/doctor, it's usually because their pride gives them a need to be right...and so they read the Bible and hear that murder is wrong, but they go off and justify violence. They do that because of pride, because their need to be right is greater than their own religion's teaching that Jesus claimed we should love our friends and enemies alike. The same could be said for extremist Islam - the teachings seem to be taken out of context to serve selfish goals, especially those of a terrorist organization. Pride is also the motivator behind humanity's rejection of God - we feel we can do it "better". Sheesh...so many rip on or disprove God in their own minds. Never mind that God created the sun, for example, while if we just stare at it long enough, we go blind. So in light of that (pun intended), who's really in charge? Pride tells us that we are, but true wisdom says otherwise.
  

• elia_ann said on Sep 26, 2006....

  In the Quran, it is said that not all of Prophet Mohammad's followers will go to heaven. That means the things that they think is right is actually wrong.... Prophet Mohammad cried when he heard this... How sad....
  

• mrhowto said on Sep 27, 2006....

  I think one of the main problems is that people use their religions as a scapegoat on which to justify doing bad things. For example: when jihad is used as a reason for terrorists to go and bomb people, they make each other think it's ok, because they really believe god is behind them. Also, chrisitians who think it's ok to sin, because they can go and confess their sins away on sunday.
  
  It's basically just an obscene amount of immaturity in man, as no one wants to be a responsible and sensible human being these days.
  
  They should all just grow up, and people in thier religions of high power shouldn't tolerate it, as it makes the whole religion and all it's followers look bad, when I'm sure that's not really the case.
  
  Deep down, people know right from wrong. They choose not to do what is right, because it's easy to do what is wrong.
  

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