I heard a plane. A missle would have been much faster and created a much louder "boom." I consider myself an intelligent adult, and I know what an approaching plane sounds like. Also, how would they have distributed debris of the plane and burning bodies immediately following the explosion? To be sure, there were no intact bodies left, but there were body parts. I spoke with rescue workers at a bar who described a piece of a smoldering flight attendant uniform with flesh adhered to the fabric. They knew it was a flight attendant because the wings (though mangled and melted) were still pinned to the lapel. Did the conspirators duct tape a human to the missle to further substantiate the truth of the attack?
The same rescue workers told me about the "wing print" on the side of the building. The substantial part of the plane is the fuselage. The wings are relatively frail, especially when matched against the super-reinforced concrete of the Pentagon. Why is it so hard to believe that the wings were obliterated upon impact? It's like throwing an egg at a steel wall and expecting to find an intact shell. Come on, use your brains.
I know that you are going to say, "But IPJ, the rescue workers are part of the conspiracy." I don't believe it. I was there and spoke to these people. They would have to be the greatest actors of all time, because the emotion I felt from them was totally genuine. They were not government employees; they were volunteer first aid squad workers. What would they gain by propagating the conspiracy?
People are miffed that all surveillance footage of the attack was immediately confiscated by the FBI and NSA. Think of this from their perspective: if they released that footage immediately, before they could analyze it, it might be used against them. Remember that the Pentagon has been designed to be virtually indestructible. This commercial airplane penetrated this supposedly inpenetrable building to the "C" ring. The government does not want terrorists to see the footage of the plane striking because they could use it to orchestrate a more damaging attack in the future.
TN, I don't think you're entirely correct. There is a lot of information that we aren't hearing through the media because the government often refuses to release information following such events. We will likely never see footage of the plane striking the Pentagon. This is because terrorist organizations amass quite a bit of intelligence simply by watching CNN. If the government told the media (and therefore the public) everything it was doing, we'd have no national security. There is some information that is too dangerous to release, and I am glad that the government makes a judgment call about what can and cannot be released, even if they are too conservative some of the time.
I don't like it that people make an automatic assumption that the conspiracy theorists are 100% truthful and the government is 100% lies. I hate Bush. I do not agree with his policies (hello, I am a lesbian with a wife), but to cheapen the memory of the people who lost their lives on 9/11 by supporting the nonesense propounded by the conspiracy theorists angers me. They are taking advantage of this tragedy, and I am not really sure what they seek to gain.
I think a lot went wrong on 9/11/01. The airlines responded poorly, which led to a delayed NORAD response. But, it was also the most chaotic event that I have ever witnessed. The people responding to the crisis were people, who we all know can make mistakes.
I do not propose that any side of this story is blindly believed. But don't make an assumption that the government is lying to us because you saw a film. That is ludacrous. As a lawyer, I have been trained to examine both sides of every argument. I do the research myself and then formulate an opinion. I watched Loose Change 2e. It sounds legit when you watch it. They have done an amazing job at linking sound bytes and creating an out-of-context story. Get the full story, and you'll see that most of those comments, when taken in context support the theory that terrorists planned and executed these attacks.
InterplanetJanet posted on Sep 14, 2006
| views: 834
Comments
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missfickle said on Sep 14, 2006....
IPJ, you have laid out your version and that was really good of you, and as I said, I am just trying to piece together facts, so I can make a rational decision about the evidence that has been presented to me.
I appreciate your view, I did not feel that anyone is 100% wrong or right, I just feel there is more to this than meets the public eye, and we should not believe everything we are told.
Despite everything America needs that oil more than any other country, and many artifacts were stolen from Iraqi museums despite the fact that American soldiers were supposed to be guarding them.
Thank you very much for being brave
MS xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 14, 2006....
Miss F: When you say, "my version," you imply that it is not an accurate depiction of the events. I liken that to you calling me a liar, and I don't take kindly to that. Please choose your words carefully when corresponding with me, because I hate being insulted. Those events were witnessed by me first hand. I consider them truth. You can tell me that my memory of the events is tainted by my perceptions and influences; that I accept. Don't dare tell me that I am lying.
Moreover, to create such an elaborate tragedy all in the name of getting oil is preposterous. When soldiers are at war, they are not always to most honorable. I am sure that there is some truth in your statement that artifacts have been stolen. I do not, however, think that the US government set this up so it could get oil and steal artifacts. The CIA (being as sophisticated as the conspiracy theorists say) could have easily gone in and taken those artifacts and created a fool-proof cover that would not have involved nearly as many people.
I think that the Bush administration definitely used the events of 9/11 to pursue Iraq on the military front, but I certainly do not think that they in any way orchestrated the events of 9/11. I am sure the US government would have found another vehicle to get into Iraq had the tragedy of 9/11 not occurred. The US has proven that it can get into war without good justification. Remember that Osama and al-quaeda are Afgani, not Iraqi. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, and the WMD did not exist. The US still got into Iraq to wreak havoc. In the end, however, it did not hinge on 9/11 but rather on the intent of the administration.
"we should not believe everything we're told." DING. That's exactly my point. You are believing the films you've seen. Give me some solid facts either way and I'll listen to you. Don't watch a movie and tell me that the government set this up. I expect you to review the volumes of material from not only the conspiracy theorists but also the NIST, American media, the US government, witness accounts, etc. Then I think you'll have an accurate picture from which you can draw conclusions. Then you will create "your version" and we can have a debate.
And finally, don't patronize me and thank me for being brave. That insults the people who died rescuing people. I wasn't involved at all. I sat in my apartment and watched tv. Thanks for being a retard.
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silverwhisper said on Sep 14, 2006....
IPJ: i take this to mean that you've never seen stupidgenius's post espousing the same crap?
ed
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 14, 2006....
my crap or fickle's crap? I've been super busy at work; could you give me a link? Thx.
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missfickle said on Sep 14, 2006....
IJP oh dear oh dear, I said 'your version of events' in the literal sense, as I would say to anyone when taking statements. This is how I use the english language and that is what we would say here in england, so before you go jumping to conclusions and being defensive please remember, Americans interpretation of English is not always the same as the English interpretation. I thought this was common knowledge sorry.
Secoundly it was not a movie, it was a documentary, and there were many facts stated, I also said 'I was not sure what to believe' so maybe you should re-read my initial comment.
Also I watched 9/11 as did you, I may not have been party to primary information, but in essense I was there. You cannot pass judgement on something you have not seen, so don't judge me as a retard, at least I was prepared to watch it and at least I am prepared to open up a debate.
If you think I am patronising you, I was saying what I felt, again you have been emotional and defense.
Name calling (retard, your reference to me) doesn't make for an intelligent argument now does it?
This is the sort of mentality that causes divides, and I am not insulting those who died in that tradegy, I watched what happened on 9/11 it was the same day I found out I had suffered a miscarriage, I remember my feelings very well thankyou very much, I thought 'well there's no point feeling sorry for myself after what I have just witnessed' Do you not think I have feelings too?
I am questioning something that I found very disturbing as are you, so forgive me if your perception is different from mine, but there you go, I actually think you were patronising me, however I will rise above it for the sake of the real issues here, which are Death, terrorism and lies.
I will not lower myself to get into a personal argument, over an issue that is discussed world wide, and like you I have the privalage of 'free thought' so I will think what my gut instincts tell me to think, not what some TV show politician or any other media controlled hype says.
SW, anything can be considered crap, if you want it to be so.
Anyway, I knew my post would stir the pot and as I can see here it definately has.
Peace to you.
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silverwhisper said on Sep 14, 2006....
IPJ: i'm not sending you the link precisely b/c you're super busy. trust me, you'll thank me for it later. and i was referring to the conspiracy crap, not your meticulous deconstruction thereof. :>
miss fickle: trust me, stupid genius's argument was crap. that i deem it so is no reflection on me but rather a reflection on the poor quality of his argument. :>
here's what i don't understand, though: note that those espousing these cockamamie theories aren't actually located anywhere near the relevant sites. there's a reason for that.
ed
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 14, 2006....
OKay fickle...
I am truly sorry that you suffered a miscarriage; on any day that is a terrible event.
A documentary is still a film, which has the benefit of a handy film making tool called editing. Those so-called documentaries are cleverly spliced together sound bytes that feed the conspiracy theory. It is apparent from your response that you have not done any outside research and consider the "documentary" to be a fact-based source.
Gut instincts won't get you anywhere. Look beyond the media-controlled hype. You haven't done ANY research on the matter, yet you are trying to debate with me what happened. Moreover, you contradict yourself by saying that you don't believe the media hype, but you "witnessed" the events (through your tv)! Take some time, read some documents (I am sure you can find someone to help you with the big words), and then give me some facts supporting your argument. I could give a fuck about your gut with regard to this matter.
This medium is tough for deducing someone's intent behind a phrase. That being said, if you could have expressed yourself more clearly, it would have been helpful, and maybe I would not have been defensive. I don't really consider my response defensive; rather, I wanted to point out your poor use of the English language. Being from England or the US doesn't really matter when you can't convey your thoughts properly with words. Additionally, I must point out that your command of the English language is indicated by your atrocious spelling (e.g., there is no "a" in the word "definitely" in either country).
You don't want to continue this debate because you can't. You have nothing of value to add to the conversation because you have not attempted to move beyond your gut response to a shameful "documentary" compiled by conspiracy theorists. I'll watch the "documentary;" send me a link.
I call 'em as I see 'em, and when you make a retarded, and patronizing statement, I assume you are a retard. I can have an intelligent conversation without name calling, but it's so much more fun with the name calling. I'm not here to be nice, so don't expect it from me.
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 14, 2006....
Thanks for looking out for me, ed. Someone's gotta protect the billables; thank God it's you.
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missfickle said on Sep 14, 2006....
SW Well, I agree in some ways with you, that is why I was interested to hear IPJ comments in the first place, I did ask her to comment on another blog, and this is her response. The reason I asked for her comments was because I am willing to listen to real events obviously. I have not put down her view as I cannot, she has put down mine. Fair enough, however don't get personal, because it looses the argument.
The DVD(documentary I watched) was full of people who were there on the day, Americans that is; that is my whole reason for writing my original post.
I didn't say I believed everything that was said.
I opened it up for public debate, because what I saw concerned me and my son's, believe it or not, I am trying to know the truth for my family's own sake.
Thanks
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missfickle said on Sep 14, 2006....
IPJ, well I don't think my written language is that bad for someone who suffers from dyslexia now do you?
And man are you one arsy bird. Insults flying everywhere, anger breeds anger remember.
I will repeat, I didn't say I believed anything wholeheartidly, and I will say one thing lady, gut instincts have protected me and my family for a very long time, so don't put them down, man's gut instincts were around long before language, and it's a shame some people have lost their inner most power.
I have stated on my own blogg why I felt the need to write what I did, and I have no wish to repeat myself here, I didn't notice your comments on my blogg actually.
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missfickle said on Sep 14, 2006....
On a final note, I'm sure that one day in the future we will find out the real truth.
As with Pearl Harbour, Vietnam, and Cuba, the real story always comes out eventually.
Remember mud sticks, and if your nation has a history of lying to it's people then why should they be believed in the first place???
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missfickle said on Sep 14, 2006....
Here's your links
www.reopen911.org
www.walden3.org
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silverwhisper said on Sep 14, 2006....
every government lies to its people. if you're arguing that the US government is a particularly egregious practitioner of such deceptions however, i think you're very unfamiliar w/ how our media companies operate.
ed
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missfickle said on Sep 14, 2006....
I know every government lies to it's people SW that is what gets up my nose, we pay our taxes, we work hard, we the workers keep countries running and they lie to us. Maybe I am unfamiliar, maybe at 42 with a profession, two sons and a grandson, I am just a stupid english woman who knows nothing.!!!!!
I used America as the example as it is 9/11 we are supposed to be debating.
and if you must know I don't know what the word egregious means, as its not a word commonly used in england.
I have posted a reply anyway, I don't mind arguing but as its got personal I feel the real topic has been waisted.
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JayneBond said on Sep 14, 2006....
Miss Fickle...don't you know that IPJ is one BITCHTASTIC babe by now?
muuuuah IPJ you little Illuminati lover!
JB
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silverwhisper said on Sep 14, 2006....
jayne, i hope you start blogging. i for one would be most interested in reading more of you. :>
ed
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 14, 2006....
Cool, I'm an arsy bird. I've always wanted to be called one. Don't use your learning disability as an excuse for failing to make a strong argument. That's just a cop-out. I am not angry; I am just debating with you. I'm not going to back down from my opinion because you had a bad day on 9/11 or you have a learning disability.
Gut instincts have no place in a discussion about the truth of what happened on 9/11. Room is reserved in the discussion expressly for facts. I am glad that you want to find out what really happened on 9/11; go for it! I will be here when you want to have an informed discussion on the matter.
I did not comment on your blog because you are reiterating the same garbage that is in that Jimmy Walter "documentary." There is no substantiation for any of the claims he has made, and he takes everything out of context. You are free to believe what you want, and comment on it (both on SC and in real life). I'm not going to shut you down; you're totally entitled. I will not waste my time commenting on a blog about garbage. You are here commenting on my blog. I believe it was you who requested that I share my memories. Now, you are taking a snarky tone that is getting you a snarky tone in reply. You started this one, fickle, not me.
There are rebuttals for everything propounded in the Walter film (and the others for that matter). Check out the other side... or do you believe the conspiracy theorists that everyone with a conflicting opinion is part of the conspiracy? I'll bet you think I was in on it too.
BTW, "egregious" means extra bad.
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missfickle said on Sep 14, 2006....
I have checked out the other side, I listened to the 'other side' whilst it was being enacted at the time, I was just accross the pond, living in what I thought was a freer land, I heard what was said, I listened to george bush, tony blair, and the rest of them, I noted that no other european country was prepared to back them, and I also reviled at what al queda had done. I live in a country where muslims as much as a menace as politicians, I am not supporting either side.
I listened to innocent people crying, I read their losses just like you did.
I think I am the one who has listened to both sides of the story.
Believe me Gut instincts go way beyond the language barriers bred by society. Words are meaningless without passion and instinct guiding them, as you are well aware, that is what led you to write what you have.
Soulcast seems to be dominated by Americans, some very open and honest, others closeted by the small microcosm of the society that envelopes them.
You haven't listened because if you had you would have heard what I said, I said I wasn't sure what to believe, all I knew was that lies had as usual been told!
The way I see it I haven't got a learning disability, that is your perception not mine, I just spell words differently from you sometimes. Some people have learning disabilities and they don't even know it!
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Expendable said on Sep 15, 2006....
conspiracies work best when they're small and simple. Every conspiracy theory I've heard so far as been too big and complicated.
If you want people to think a plane crashed into the side of a tower you crash a plane into it, not fire a missile and hopes nobody notices while you're spreading debris later.
I think most of the conspiracy theories isn't because they think the government is hiding something - they WANT the government to be hiding something. They don't want to believe that a handful of determined men could do all this by themselves.
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thenack said on Sep 15, 2006....
Hey JAnet
Well I'm glad you posted this. I have never actually heard from anyone who witnessed one of the happenings. (I'm not from US). My doubts about this thing stems from different angles than just the pentagon but it I try to take all evidence into consideration before I make up my mind, and I take eye whiteness testimony far above most things. My main reason for taking any of the conspiracy stuff seriously is the overwhelming evidence that George Bush is linked to devil worshipping cults. This gives a motive. But then again. All that could be BS also.
Keep well
TN
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missb said on Sep 15, 2006....
Catfight *meows* :)
I'm joking!!!
Bush is a devil worshipper???? I thought he's a very devout christian?? Too christian for some people, in fact :/
Cheers!
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anonymous said on Sep 15, 2006....
Devil worshipper? The man wears his religion on his sleeve, anyone can see where he comes from and it doesn't have anything to do with devil worship. Why not call him the anti-Christ and just get it over with? How ridiculous.
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Plumber'sHelper said on Sep 15, 2006....
A lawyer? I believe it the way you respond to posters on your blog. Let me guess, you're a partner in the lawfirm of Stabem, Kickem and Beyotch. I'll let you guess which partner you are. But, I'm sure your mother loves you, so all is not lost. :P~~
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silverwhisper said on Sep 15, 2006....
nack, what evidence exists of bush being a devil worshipper? you claim it's "overwhelming". what is this mountain of supposed evidence?
i detest bush but i'm perfectly capable of hating him for being an idiot and easily-controlled by his advisors w/out needing to chalk it up to more conspiracy theory such as that.
PH: you obviously haven't read particularly carefully.
ed
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 15, 2006....
Well, at least I'm not a plumber; I only deal with figurative shit. Thanks for the constructive comment, PH. I readily admit to being a bitch; that's what makes me a powerhouse lawyer in my 20s.
Fickle: I read what you posted. It is complete garbage. I watched that waste-of-time Jimmy Walter film; I also watched Loose Change 2e, which spouts the same bullshit. I wanted to learn more about the claims made in these films so I did some independent research, coupled with my first-hand knowledge. These films are fiction, and I think they detract from the tragedy and the victims. It is shameful that these individuals feel the need to lash out at the government in such an inappropriate way.
As I have stated before, I detest Bush and his policies. I just don't agree that there was a conspiracy on 9/11. I did read that you are trying to find out what happened. But I can tell from your tone that you aren't going to believe the rational explanations and will continue to be clouded by the lies spewed by the conspiracy theorists. It's your prerogative to be closed-minded like that; I am not going to tell you otherwise. But, Fickle, you should realize that you aren't really looking at both sides.
Watching CNN the day of 9/11, and even the weeks following, does not give you the full picture. As I posted above, there are clear security reasons why the general public is not given access to all of the information available. If you really want the truth, you must take off your housecoat, get out of your little town, talk to real life people (not watch them on a "documentary"). Read the 9/11 Commission Report and the NIST investigation (it's only 43 volumes). Search on the internet for rebuttal to the conspiracy theories. That is the other side. You are once again contradicting yourself by saying that your research of the other side consists of watching what the media had to say on 9/11 and thereafter. But, you don't believe what the media has to say; they're all liars according to you. Go beyond the easy-tv route and find some real answers.
I did not read losses. I lived them. I lost friends at the WTC and the Pentagon. I lost a professor in the crash in PA. I smelled the burning flesh and fuel, and I saw the snipers out of my window.
You are underhandedly accusing me of being "closeted by the small microcosm of society that envelopes" me. Untrue. You are the one with blinders on to reality. I am very open and honest; I shared personal memories about 9/11. You weren't there and yet you are trying to discount my memories. Furthermore, you have done no research (that I can glean from your comments) and want so desparately to believe what you have seen in those films (ostensibly to add some excitement to your life as a housewife) that you don't want to hear the TRUTH. I have viewed the films, and I have read excerpts from reports. I have seen events, and spoken to people first-hand. I am better informed on this subject than you are, but I am not asking you to blindly believe me. I want you to do the appropriate research and make informed conclusions. You probably won't and I'm probably just wasting my time.
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JayneBond said on Sep 15, 2006....
LOL IPJ is really a very hot biatch though.
I have to agree with her contention that this was obviously way too messy to be planned by the government. The only part the conspiracy theorists seem to have gotten correct, but don't pay enough attention to, is that the CIA had offices in the subfloors of the basement of the WTC. This was the real reason it was struck, not because it is the symbol of American capitalism. I work in New York city I was also witness to it all, but let's go over why the conspiracy theories are just hype.
Let's think about this:
1) The government did not immediately send in the troops and create a marshall law zone which they would have done had they planned the incident, instead what ensued was pure chaos. There was absolutely no coordination with the city and state in terms of how to react to an act of war, so the troops should have been immediately sent to the site for many reasons.
2) The government wouldn't have picked the two most important HQ locations for the bombings, New York HQ and Washington HQ at the Pentagon. I'm guessing a lot of you don't know that about that so this might be new information. they would have picked less expensive targets, such as the Sears tower or the Empire State bldg, and perhaps a landmark like the Washington monument.
3) It was clear from my vantage that they were planes that hit the WTC, not missiles, and just regular passenger 747s, not helicopters or other types of planes as was suggested.
My story is different than IPJ's because I was scheduled to work downtown that day with a crew. Only when I woke up I was violently ill, and I thought I might have the flu or salmonella poison. I don't call out sick when I have a whole crew and a $5000 dollar a day job to do. But as I was driving down the NJ turnpike I had to keep pulling over to vomit, to the point where I knew I just couldn't work that day. I called my office and told them I was not going to be able to perform the field work, and then called our subcontractors and canceled the job for the day. (The men that day still thank me whenever I see them.) Although the corporate office is located across the river in New York city I told them I would work today in the satellite office in New Jersey because I was just not feeling well. It was about 8:30 when I arrived at this office which is located directly across from downtown/Wall Street New York city. I had just gotten in when all hell was breaking loose and someone said there was smoke pouring from what they thought was a small plane hitting one of the buildings downtown. We flew up the stairs to watch the smoke rise up and around downtown Manhattan, obscuring vision until winds came and showed that it was the WTC. Then the reports started coming in that a small plane or helicopter had hit the WTC. I stayed on the roof because I just knew it wasn't an accident, I had that queasy feeling in my stomach still. Then the second plane came streaking silvery in the sun and disappeared into the smoke, then there was a flash and more dark smoke. I was afraid for the first time in my life that this was it, they were bombing New York in Armaggedon like fashion, that Nostradamus was right. I was swooning from my stomach illness, feverish, it seemed like time was so slow, and at the same time everything was like a mad rush trying to figure out what to do. We watched the glow and smoke snaking upwards, filling the sky, curling and eddying along the river towards NJ. Then a huge mushroom cloud erupted upwards like an atom bomb. At that moment that is what I thought it was and I was scared because I knew that we were too close, and that we didn't have a chance to survive an atomic bomb at that range (since they can travel about 750 miles from the epicenter). It turns out that was when the tower fell. I was completely panicked my family, friends, lovers were in New York city, my ancestors had lived there since it was New Amsterdam, I had cousins in the Fire department and police departments. I was completely distraught and we were all allowed to go home. I took back roads to avoid the huge parking lots on all the parkways. So many people that day were stuck for 8 to 12 hours commuting across the bridges, some didn't make it home for days, the roads were simply like something out of a sci-fi movie that night with people panicking to try and leave the city. Luckily only one of my cousins had to enter the tower, and even more lucky he was a big, beer-bellied Irish guy who got winded and had to rest on the way up. His engine company was one of the first becaues they are located downtown and he lost most of the people in his company because they all ran up the steps. He couldn't go fast and wound up getting hit by debris in the stairwell just before the tower crumbled and he got out, although he is disabled now from the incident with a back injury. He still thanks Budweiser to this day for saving his life. After I finally got home it was dark, and my apartment had a view over the river of downtown. At night that night, and for many nights thereafter you could see only the glow in the smoke as the city burned, and when the wind kicked up you could smell what I thought must be what brimstone smelled like. It smelled like death. It smelled like plastic and burning flesh and petroleum and with the way the smoke curled around the buildings and snuck across the river it seemed like Hell to me, burning, smoldering. A few days later I grabbed a paper and on the front page they had a picture that stopped me in my tracks, something I had seen in a dream a few weeks before but hadn't understood, the skeletal remains of the WTC buildings reaching up to the sky amidst the smoke. I remembered that image in my dream, but it was kind of like a dungeons and dragons dreams with silver dragons and black medieval towers, with the dragons destroying the towers. But it was the image of the smoldering skeleton girders that creeped me totally out, gave me total dejavieu, and I knew that my illness was also not coincidental either. It was a definite "things that make me go hmmmmm" moment.
It's times like those that you feel touched by Fate, and thankful it wasn't your turn to die.
peace,
JB
P>S> Cyberspace HIJACKER IPJ LOL
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silverwhisper said on Sep 15, 2006....
IPJ, i thought you might find this link to an article by jonah goldberg of the national review.
ed
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missfickle said on Sep 15, 2006....
Read the first comment I made on this blog again, and realise I was not patronising you, for godsake woman. Get a grip, I valued your input, and I thanked you. You didn't want to believe it was a genuine reply so you trashed it. Like I said what I saw shocked me, I wrote because of that shock, you got your point accross a long time ago, but it wasn't good enough was it?
Sorry IPJ that I didn't say initially Oh IPJ your so lovely you've really made me see the truth, I should have known, by reading your blog that I was wrong!!!
I don;t know you as much as I don't know walters, so pardon me for keeping an open mind.
End of.... Thanks for the so called debate ....!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 16, 2006....
Fickle, your tone was clearly patronizing. Moreover, you were calling into question my ability to decipher linguistic nuances between American and British English, a task of which I am quite capable. I think you are the one whose lost her grip; I'm sorry you can't handle a heated debate.
I am not saying that you are wrong, I just don't think you've seen the full picture. Please come back when you've fully opened your mind and viewed all available evidence to find the truth.
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missfickle said on Sep 17, 2006....
IJP well then at least we agree on something, - That our opinions and interpretation differ - I leave it for others to decide when reading this post.
I have more important things to deal with at the moment, like a depressed teenage son, exams, and homelife, rest assured I will keep a closer eye on world events from now on.
Fickle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 18, 2006....
Great article, ed. The conspiracy theorists really do elicit sadness from me. I only wish the government was as clever and sophisticated as they claim it is; then maybe we would be in a better spot now.
Fickle: All I ask is that you open your mind and question everything[/]. You seem willing to do that and I wish you luck in your endeavor to find the truth.
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silverwhisper said on Sep 18, 2006....
yeah, i thought you might appreciate it. i'm not generally a fan of goldberg but it's nice to see. although the various swipes at liberals (sure, cuz only liberals hatch conspiracy theories? puh-lease!) are mildly annoying, this does have other useful points, i find.
ed
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thenack said on Sep 18, 2006....
Silver, like I said in my post, I have been hearing lots of rumours about Bush etc. and therefore I investigated. I conceded that all this may also be nonsense. However, Bush sure likes to make the horned hand devil sign used predominantly by cults. Perhaps you couls rather tell me of another reason why he and his family will do this so often, rather than just disagree with me. I don't know and that is why I asked opinions, because I don't know and I'd like to get some opinions and info.
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silverwhisper said on Sep 18, 2006....
o good grief...nack, you're so obviously not an american...
it's a symbol that bush's college football team uses as a sign of encouragement. and as very prominent residents of the state of texas, they all attended.
seriously, the entirety of your "overwhelming evidence" is the "hook 'em horns" greeting for a college football team? the doesn't exactly bode well for whatever other evidence you have in mind, i must say.
ed
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thenack said on Sep 18, 2006....
Well, thanks for the reply, I am glad your president is cheering his college football team while he is on international business. Perhaps he should grow up then. Bush has been positively linked to fremasonry (by word of mouth as whitnessed by people I don't know, so you'll have to decide if you want to believe them), as has many of your countries previous presidents (exepte for JFK, funny fact). Just look at your dollar bill. There are various mason marks on there. Including the mark of the owl, very small in the top right hand corner (you'll need a magnifying glass). Washiungton DC a seen from the air looks like an owl. The owl is a strong occultic symbol. Did'nt the previous Bush anounce the coming of the "new-world-order"? What do you think he meant by that? There are many strange coincidences that seem to point in this direction. In my opinion, there is enough to at least check it out.
I know there is a very big chance all this CT is BS. I am just naturally inquisative and took the hook so to speak when I first read about this. It is not "my" evidence, why don't you investigate for yourself, it will take me hours to explain everything. But I am still not saying its true, but that it looks very possible. I leave you with this quote from kaiser sosei :
"The greatest trick the Devil ever played, was convincing people he didn't exist.”
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thenack said on Sep 18, 2006....
Oh and the article is well written, and probably true.
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silverwhisper said on Sep 18, 2006....
if that's what you consider "very possible", your standard for proof is considerably lower than my own.
look: bush is too stupid to be a member of a secret society. :>
ed
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thenack said on Sep 18, 2006....
You make a strong point there (-;
I must say the WTC thing sounded pretty much impossible to pull off without someone leeking information before hand. The bin laden case is way more believable.
On the other hand the case that Bush is a freemason, whatever that may meen, seems to be pretty good. That is judging by DVD's and websites.
I gotta run, keep well
TN
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missfickle said on Sep 18, 2006....
IPJ Thanks I appreciate your last comment.
I see The Nack and Silverwhisper are carrying on the debate, and I will leave them too it. I haven't had time to look any further at the moment so I cannot debate further at this time, however it has been interesting.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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InterplanetJanet said on Sep 18, 2006....
Bush does the "hook-em horns" symbol instead of the peace sign because he couldn't remember which way your hand must face to avoid a more insulting gesture.
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thenack said on Sep 19, 2006....
Ha Ha! Janet. Perhaps we should point the debate in that direction
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Expendable said on Sep 19, 2006....
When did fremasonry become a satanic cult?
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thenack said on Sep 19, 2006....
Well unless you are a high ranking freemason, and can tell me how it is not, I think you can do your own research. Or did you wach the movie American Treasure and thought it was a true reflection?
Here are a few points from a book, but why don't you just google "freemason, cult" and take off work for a couple of weeks?
By taking the Masonic oaths, the Mason is swearing to uphold Masonry and its teachings. Swearing to uphold Masonic oaths is sinful, unscriptural and should not be part of the Christian's life for the following reasons.
They make a Christian man swear by God to doctrines which God has pronounced false and sinful. For example, Masonry teaches a universalist doctrine of "the Fatherhood of God" (John 8:42)
The Christian man is made to swear his acceptance of the lie that salvation, the reward of Heaven, can be gained by main's good works (Ephesians 2:8-9)
The Christian man swears to accept and promote the Masonic lie that Jesus is just one of many equally revered prohets in the world. He does this when agreeing that all religions can lead a man to God (Acts 4:12; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 1:16-18)
The Christian man swears he will remain silent in the Lodge and not talk of Christ when God commands every Christian to be a witness (Matthew 28:19)
The Christian man swears that he is approaching the Lodge while he is in spiritual ignorance and moral darkness, when the Bible says that Christians are children of light and are indwelt by the Light of the world (John 8:12; Ephesians 5:8)
By taking the Masonic oath, the Christian is guilty of taking the name of the Lord is vain, because he has sworn unlawfully to things God has forbidden him to swear to. God says He will not leave such a person unpunished (Exodus 20:7)
The Christian falsely swears that the God of the Bible is equally present in all religions (1 Timothy 2:5-6)
The Christian falsely swears to the teaching that true worship can be offered in to Lodge to God without the mediatorship of Jesus (Hebrews 9:14)
By swearing the Masonic oath, Christians are perpetuating a false gospel to other Lodge members who look only to the gospel of Masonry to get them to Heaven (Galatians 1:6-8)
The Christian's spirit, mind and body are the temple of the Holy Spirit, "bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). By taking the Masonic obligations he could be agreeing to allow the polution of his mind and spirit by pagan religion or even occult practices.
Anything that is so focussed on distorting Christianity is very likely to be Satanic. Agnostics ans Atheists argue against Christianity, Masonry distorts it.
If you are finished reading the 455 000 pages you can image-google the same words, eat your heart out.
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thenack said on Sep 19, 2006....
No wait, forget the pictures, why don't you google "skull and bones" cult? They are a masonic lodge that may be of special interest so take a look for yourself.
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JayneBond said on Sep 19, 2006....
LOL the Christian man has too much time on his hands.
Hey now Nack my father was a free mason, and my grandfather part of the upper eschelons and they were both really avid Christians. I don't think they ever found any problem with conflict of interest regarding their spirituality, and largely it seemed to be a kind of club to get away from the wives type of thing. That of course is my experience.
I would say, based on my exposure, that the Masonic teachings are kind of like New Age expression of shamanism; they were created as a mish-mosh of older ceremonial rites (most likely Egyptian or Babylonian trappings) and newer idealism for a new nation. (That being America.) There is no connection to older resources as much as Illuminati fanatics want to cram down everyone's throat to anything older than the 1600's, although you will get all sorts of google crap from "theorists" that say there is, largely based on unreliable historic sources.
This statement of yours, "anything that is so focused on distorting Christianity is very likely to be Satanic."
Well, you should do your homework before you make such a statement. Christianity wasn't always fragmented into the many different sects that currently exist, in fact Martin Luther (the father of Protestantism) was accused of the very same thing you state by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. So basically, under the logic you set forth utilizing the Bible, the only true Christians operating without distortion are the CATHOLICS- according to Gregorian Reformation standards. So if you aren't Catholic but part of a Christian sect such as Protestant, Baptist, etc. you are distorting Christianity by practicing an alternate faith than Catholocism.
If you want to see how Christianity was created, read the myths such as Zoraster and Mystra, who have remarkably similar lives to Jesus, only from older Sumerian/Babylonian stories.
things that make me go hmmm,
JB
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silverwhisper said on Sep 19, 2006....
nack, the skulls & bones are not affiliated w/ the masons. at all. please tell me your research consists of more than a handful of links to wacko conspiracy theory websites.
ed
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thenack said on Sep 20, 2006....
JAyneBond: While you make a very good argument. However, I do not associate myself with the Catholic church at all, I subscribe to churches that follow the Bible, not their own heads. What I meant to say with that argument, I believe the best way to fool people is by mixing a lie with the truth, much like the catholic curch has done many times in history. True Christianity has been greatly distorted, on that you are correct. I will try to look up the Z and M, but alas, I do not have a lot of time on my hands.
Silver, I have always conceded, time and time again, that I agree that all this may be hype. There are many unexplained things though, and for you to just claim I am wrong, without asserting some proof yourself, is plain arrogant. Why should I take your claim above more serious than anyone elses. If you care to tell me why you think so, I will consider it and maybe be persuaded.
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silverwhisper said on Sep 20, 2006....
the skulls & bones are a secret society affiliated with yale. freemasonry OTOH has a history originating in medieval europe. that isn't arrogant, it's documentable.
so tell me what sources you've employed in making that leap and i'll consider the possibility. but as i said, you're employing some bad logic there. i don't need to offer a counter proof as you haven't provided any actual proof in the first place.
ed
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thenack said on Sep 20, 2006....
I have previously given a lot of sources for what I am saying. I ahve also conceded that these are why I am syaing what I'm saying. I haven't been able to find sources to the contrary, but I'm sure there are. Considering my assumption about the skull and bones, yes I said assumtion, there are many similarities, and both are pointing in the same direction according to me. Perhaps they are not the same but as far as I can make out, they are both ocultic in nature.
Here are some exerpts from an article in esquire magazine on the SkullB
These experiences in the coffins incorporated sexual pain and resulted in being born-again, into the Order, as we mentioned above. (Cooper, p.95) Powerful force charges through the participants of these ceremonies, transforming their lives dramatically. This type ritual is classic Satanism. Anton LaVey states, in his book (The Satanic Rituals: Companion To The Satanic Bible, (p. 57) "The ceremony of rebirth takes place in a large coffin.. This is similar to the coffin symbolism that...is found in most lodge rituals."
Make no mistake about it: Any organization which utilizes this coffin ritual to simulate rebirth is practicing Satanism, including Skull and Bones. The Skull and Bones believes that on the night of initiation, the initiate "dies to the world and be born again into the Order..." (Esquire Magazine, September, 1977, p. 89). Remember Hitler's belief that he had been born anew after his ritualistic initiation and training? This term is a common one in occultism
it is well known that masons also has this ritual of being reborn, some say to mock the death of Christ. There is a possible link.
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silverwhisper said on Sep 20, 2006....
nack: i'm sure there's a number of similarities. but given that we're talking about secret societies, it's gonna be awfully hard to know for certain one way or the other short of becoming a member of both, wouldn't you say?
ed
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thenack said on Sep 20, 2006....
Silver, yes. I agree and a very good point I might ad. A secret society that everyone knows everything about is hardly worth speculating about (-;
I think I will be stepping of this topic for a while, it seems it can get people in some bad light with others. Keep well and see you around.
TN
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silverwhisper said on Sep 20, 2006....
sorry if i came off as pushy: that wasn't my intention so if that's how it seemed, i apologize.
ed
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thenack said on Sep 20, 2006....
No harm done, everyone comes off too strong at some point, myself included. Its not always a bad thing, emotion counts for something doesn't it?
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silverwhisper said on Sep 20, 2006....
so true. :>
ed
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thenack said on Sep 21, 2006....
Hey Silver, you know, you really do come off as a kind man. We have been disagreeing a lot lately but I think we would like much of the same things to happen. We just disagree about the methods. Peace to you,
TN
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silverwhisper said on Sep 21, 2006....
and you, nack. :>
ed
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anonymous said on Nov 27, 2006....
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silverwhisper said on Nov 27, 2006....
moron.
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