• SeanRenaud said on Jul 02, 2009....

  1.  We'll start at the end for a change.  The government TOOK over GM, and the banks?  I must not have been paying attention.  I must have been off in some other country or an alternative reality.  I could have sworn they came to government begging on their hands and knees for money and bail outs.  I must have been out of the country when Obama took Bush by gunpoint and made him send in the military to seize assets from free Americans.  I apologize.  Micheal Jackson died and that's gotten so much media coverage that I completely missed this siezure of private assetts. 

  If the assetts were SOLD well that's not a take over, that's a buy out.  At the very least the language you're using is misleading.

  2.  I have been looking into those rumors about car dealerships though and that has me somewhat concerned.  I just can't find anything really damning on it so I keep ignoring it.

  3.  UHC needs to happen, we just have to fix what the fuck went wrong in some of the other nations by continuing heavy support of the private sector.

• ALIENated said on Jul 02, 2009....

  Yes, keep ignoring what he is doing. By all means. That is what the Germans did.

• curmudgeon said on Jul 03, 2009....

  I love the fact that a liberal's liberal like Helen Thomas is now haranguing the President for his staged town hall meeting - filled with planted questions from Obama supporters.
  
  That whole thing with the woman without health care? Volunteer for the Obama campaign. Remember all the flack Joe the Plumber got?
  
  If Universal Health Care is such a necessity, doesn't it require an honest debate that honestly hears all concerned? If it's really that important, why does the Obama administration feel it needs to stack the deck in public discussion?
  
  Staging these fake public discussions tells me that he really doesn't have a lot of confidence in his own proposals.
  
  Why should we? Why should any honest person, Democrat or Republican?
  

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 03, 2009....

  The Germans didn't ignore what Hitler did.  They loved every second of it because he was a rather brilliant leader.  Hey if you can prove that woman was a liar like Joe the Plumber and not JUST a plant they go for it.  There is a difference.  Though a fake town hall meeting is rather deplorable, got a link proving or heavily suggesting it?

  Why stack the deck when half the team is blatantly lying about facts?  Hmmmmm let me see.  Are you joking Cur?  The only reason why he should be forced to play fair is that if we are too stupid to follow a good plan we deserve whatever happens to us.  Besides he hasn't been particularly forth coming on details for what his UHC plan is.  I find it funny that so many Republicans support the idea of vouchers for schools claiming some how that the basis for Capitalism is the individuals choosing and that government funding has nothing to do with anything but none of them are jumping up and down screaming we should do the exact same thing with UHC.

• beyondtheveil said on Jul 03, 2009....

  Well, it's good to keep your eyes on things, but real worry may be misplaced here. The real worry is the economy that tanked last year and probably is just getting a good start. We could all be grabbing the handlebars and hanging on for dear life later on.
  
  And no, Obama and Pelosi aren't the cause of it. They aren't helping, certainly, but they didn't cause it. The demos caused less than half. The single politician  that had the biggest hand in it was uncle george. You know, the less than brilliant lying jackass. The closet socialist. Yea, that one.
  
  I don't know if I should worry more about uncle george's trillions or uncle obama's trillions. The numbers just get too big sometimes. Should I worry more about the tax and spend demos or the cut tax and spend even more republicans? The latter sounds worse to me. Too bad there's no democrats or republicans that want to change this.
  
  Well, there's a couple like Ron Paul, but in the end it doesn't matter.
  

• ALIENated said on Jul 03, 2009....

  Again, I think looking at the Dubya years as a typical Republican run is somewhat naive. 9/11 caused the whole direction of the Bush presidency to change directions. Please recall that everyone (Democrats and Republicans) was onboard, ready to kick ass and take names until the media started turning the nation against our efforts to stop future terrorism here and abroad. As far as our current financial crisis, I still have to place most of the blame on people like Carter, Clinton, Dodd, and Barney (the homo) Frank for requiring the lending institutions give mortgages away to people who could not afford them. It is one thing to root for your team (either Democrats or Rupublicans), but another thing to go blind while another team (Socialists/Communists) sneak on the field and start a whole different game. Never doubt that that is what is happening, which is why I call on good Democrats to wake up and realize that their party has been hijacked by the far far left, and our country may never be the same if they do not soon recognize that. Team spirit and greed (for UHC) should not blind us to the fact that government control rarely leads to a good outcome. It is now common knowledge that FDR prolonged the Great Depression in America because of his tinkering with things. Who knows how much damage LBJ did to this country with his interference and "good intentions". Goverment should be like a referee or a judge. Goverment should not trot out on the field and start participating in the game. (Sorry for all the sports references. I have been watching Wimbledon tennis.)

• ALIENated said on Jul 03, 2009....

  Yes, I saw that about Helen Thomas on the news this morning. She and the Washington press corps are getting tired of the gestapo tactics of this goofball bunch. I think you can only get so deep into shit before even the most ardent supporter admits that they are treading shit and not strawberry ice cream. Even people like Sean will recognize the odor and color at some point. When an administration (like this one or Nixon's) acts like this, good people from both parties had better stand up and be counted before it is too late.

• ALIENated said on Jul 03, 2009....

  And let me answer my own question ...

  And why are these big corporate news agencies so solidly behind Borax? I thought big corporations were controlled by Republicans.

  The network news agencies are run by big corporations (like GE runs the NBCs) and they want to stop having to pay for their employee's healthcare coverage. That benefit has been slowly deteriorating over the last couple of decades anyway. I know I have had to pay a bigger and bigger share with a higher deductible over time. They want Uncle Sam to pay it, which basically means we pay our own. That nets out to mean that you really have no benefit. As I have said before, they should just do away with insurance altogether. That is what Borax's plan amounts to anyway.

• Cussane said on Jul 03, 2009....

  this started off like an intelligent debate until the comment about canadian health care, again the republican scare tactic which is based on nothing but bs, you demean yourself alien by falling for that crap. i thought in a few past posts we had resolved that issue, i guess you must be like those germans you keep refering to alien. i never said the health care suystem up here is perfect but it is not the nightmare youre republicans scream about.

   

  Cussane

• beyondtheveil said on Jul 03, 2009....

  cussane- The republicans/conservatives have nothing to hold onto. They have no message since destroying their own 'family values' crap in which they fought health care and minimum wage (which is less than the sixties after inflation). If there is no direction and hypocrisy has reigned supreme, there is little left but to grab at old straws.
  
  I will say the democrats must tread carefully. To revamp something like health care which is hugely expensive providing little for the cost could be made more effective. But the economy must come first.
  

• Cussane said on Jul 03, 2009....

  the funny thing is uhc has been a thorn in the side of the usa for ages, reality is i have been an er md in canada, usa, jamaica and columbia and the usa has the potential to have the best uhc if they approach it correctly, i had to laugh when the senate committe on health care stated that canada's hc was so bad one of our md's went to the usa for breast cancer surgery, what she really went for was reconstructive surgery at a plastic surgery clinic after she had the breast cancer surgery here in canada. it is this misinformation that makes me doubt anything that comes out of the republican's collective talking heads, who have never even visited canada never mind recieved health care here, and by the way, i pay 900.00 per year as a health care tax for a family of four and that is based on an income of 360k per year. Cussane

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 03, 2009....

   It is now common knowledge that FDR prolonged the Great Depression in America because of his tinkering with things.

   

  No such thing is claimed by any credible historian or economist.  No evidence supports this either unless you're going to try siting the fact that the depression ended years later in the US than in other places.

• ALIENated said on Jul 03, 2009....

  Cussane: Canadian after Canadian called into the Laura Ingram radio show the other night and each expressed their distaste for the Canadian healthcare system. They talked about managed care (not sure that was the term), which they said was double talk for rationed care. One man needs an MRI, but cannot get it. People have to wait months for chemo. Etc. Etc. Maybe the ER is not that different. They have to take care of anyone here, too, whether or not they are covered (as I understand it). So an ER MD may not have a clear picture. All I can say is governments do not run anything well, and why should they. I have heard nothing but bad about the Canadian healthcare system. Dick Morris just put out a book with facts and figures. Go argue with that. I am sure the doctors do their best under the circumstances, but how many doctors are going to want to work with the government telling them what they can and cannot do? I would not want to work like that.

  Sean: Exactly. The depression lasted years longer in the U.S. thanks to FDR's strongarming industry, etc. There are books out about that, too, which are probably not that hard to find.

  The bottom line is socialism does not work. And as far as healthcare, it is never going to be cheap. As George Will says, we expect to get 2009 healthcare at 1955 prices. It is just not going to happen. If healthcare was free, there would not be enough doctors and nurses to service everyone that would suddenly be able to afford it. The only alternative is rationing (or managing) services as they are doing in Canada. I have never heard any reports about UHC that were not negative. I wonder how many rich people go to Canada instead of the U.S. for healthcare today. A great burden could be taken off our healthcare system if all the illegals were sent back to Mexico (or wherever). I would bet that the majority of people not covered by a plan now are also illegal immigrants. This is simply an OhBummer power grab. You know it and I know it.

• Cussane said on Jul 03, 2009....

  ahh, the same old right bs, so a couple of people call into a talk show, so the fuck what, not everyone can be happy with everything, be it medicare, ohip, medicaid etc, we have problems with our system like any system with the increase in older populations just like social security will have problems and ccp will have problems, but you again make assertions which you cannot back up, the head of the CMA again and again has dispelled the "canadians going to us for health care because they cant get it in canada" bullshit, we have what we call wait time limits and that means if you can recieve a level care within a certian time the ohip program pays for you to get it elsewhare in other words you get it wether it is in the us, canada or uk, as for an er md not having a clear picture who do you think is on the front line of health care , regardless i have never in 13 years rationed care. what i find really strange in the past 3 years i have hired 4 operations managers from the US, from differnet states, florida, ohio, ga, and ms, all at over a 150k per year and the deciding factor for them to move here was the cheaper university costs for thier kids and cheaper HC, so how come no one talks about that. you have twice refered to rationing HC up here, i challenge you to provide 1 OHIP (who pay the bills) or CMA report (who regulate md's) patient care report where care has been rationed Cussane

• ALIENated said on Jul 04, 2009....

  So every one of those Canadians that called in were lying? I can only assume Canadians are all liars because I have heard many other similar stories over the last year or so. Many have posted on here about it. If all Canadians are then liars, how can we believe what you are saying? Why would Canadians call in and lie about their experiences? As I understand it, Dick Morris has a book coming out about it as well, with facts and figures. I really do not know who to believe now that you tell me Canadians are liars. Maybe just the deserters that fled to Canada in the 60s and 70s are the ones calling in, but that makes no sense. They would most likely be all for a socialistic system. It makes no sense to me. Either they are lying or you are lying. Either way, it does not matter to me. I do not think the government should be running anything, least of all our healthcare system. Medicare and social security are in a huge mess. Why would government-run healthcare be any different? Are you stupid enough to think the government is suddenly going to get it right? They collect all kinds of medicare and social security taxes and where does it go, why is it in trouble? Because the government mismanages it just as they will mismanage healthcare in general. Visit a VA hospital if you want to see government medical practice in action. I am sure the doctors there think everything is fine, too. Try calling a VA hospital and see if you can even get a real person on the line and not just a answering machine merry-go-round. Maybe the healthcare system in Canada was so fucked up before it was taken over by the government that anything would be an improvement. I say it is just the next step that big companies are taking to get out of the health insurance business. And who could blame them with unions demanding more and more of companies. I say do away with all healthcare benefits and just let people deduct all their medical expenses. That would force illegals to pay their own expenses or get the hell out of here, which would reduce demand and help to lower prices. Nah, that is probably too simple and the Democrats would not have anything to control.

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 05, 2009....

  Sean: Exactly. The depression lasted years longer in the U.S. thanks to FDR's strongarming industry, etc. There are books out about that, too, which are probably not that hard to find.

  No serious economist of historian buys into your CAUSE.  Yes the depression lasted years longer in the US.  You know what else lasted years long in the US than around the world?  You're a bright one I'll let you figure out what it was that ended the Depression not only in America but around the world and then I'll let you go look up your history books and find out when that other thing happened to the United States.

  No wait I'll tell you.  The Depression lasted longer in the US because we didn't jump into WW2.  Turns out that large scale war sends all your boys to war, your men and women start making stuff (all under the employ of the EVIL GOVERNMENT I might add) and with 100% employment is shocking how quickly you can break out of a Depression.  Of course Germany got out first, they were busy making goddamn tanks (tanks that would destroy us for a while too I might add) and you know France getting attacked and Blitzed. . .Britan. . .Yeah whatever.  History is not your friend here and you'r smart enough to know about it.

  VA hospitals aren't THAT bad.  But that's neither here nor there.  The government runs at the very least the roads and military reasonably well.  USPS doesn't actually suck, Police, fire, ambulances all seem to work.  Ambulances seem to work SO well infact that there is no private alternative.  It's funny we walk around and crow that we are better than everybody else and then you come along and tell me that because Canada can't get it right we obviously can't.  Guess we aren't better.

• stopmediabias said on Jul 05, 2009....

  Will "Good Democrats"?  Is that like an oxymoron or something :>

  The bottom line with healthcare is the problems versus the alternative.  Is it worth raising our taxes and providing a Universal healthcare experiment which in other countries has fallen short, to fix the few problems we have with our present healthcare system?  I say absolutely not.  Just because the problems can be fixed without raising anyone's taxes.  It is close to 80% of people in this country have health insurance.  How do we get the other 20%?  How do with deal with catastrophic illnesses?  How do make bandaids and aspirin in an emergency room not cost $40 for one of both?  We can work this out without taking a step closer to socialism.

   

• ALIENated said on Jul 05, 2009....

  Are there figures somewhere about that 20 percent? Someone I heard suggested that most of those are illegal immigrants. Does anyone find it strange that healthcare and illegal immigration both got out of hand at the same time? I say we should correct illegal immigration and see where we are. Reduce demand and supply goes up. Companies providing healthcare benefits also increased demand and caused prices to go up (who went to the doctor for a common cold fifty years ago). Socialism increases demand and therefore has to ration the supply, no matter what the demand is for. Democrats push robbing the rich to provide for the poor, but it never really works that way. If it did we would not have any poor now. Look at the crap LBJ pushed. It enslaves people to the government. Welfare is a good example. Sounds like a great idea, but it promotes something for nothing and accomplishes just that -- nothing. It turned poor women into baby machines so they could get more welfare. The bottom line is that government interference with a free system of any kind leads to disaster. As I said, there needs to be some oversite, but not complete control. At best, the government should provide some plan for those that do not already have one or get rid of it all (stop companies from providing plans that increase demand).

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 05, 2009....

  Fuck the other 20%.  While I doubt that all of them are illegal, some of them are like myself small business owners but who cares.  How would you improve the system to lower costs?  If competition was truly feasible it would have happened there is no law preventing a doctor from opening his own practice. 

• ALIENated said on Jul 05, 2009....

  You lost me. Doctors open their own offices every day, as far as I know. As I have said so many times, companies providing healthcare benefits is what has caused this whole problem. When too many dollars are chasing too few goods, the result is inflation, which is what we have in the medical business. People are not just spending their own money, they are spending money provided by their employers. Doctors are overrun because more people are able to go to them so they hire more flunkies to work in the office and administrative costs go up. Simple economics, plus the fact that there are more expensive procedures that were not even available a couple of decades ago. Throw in the millions liberal judges award to crybaby patients for the equivalent of spilling hot coffee on themselves and doctors have to charge even more to cover their insurance. This whole deal is mostly liberals causing problems and then wanting the government to take it over and "fix it". The housing industry is a good example. Democrats forced our financial institutions to lend people money even if they did not qualify and now the government is having to bail it all out. Women working is another piece of the puzzle. When I was a kid, my mom was at home to take care of me if I was sick. I rarely ever went to the doctor except maybe to get a vaccine. Now mothers work and have to medicate their children or they start losing days at work. Medication means a trip to the doctor -- for a common cold. That, too, adds to the demand. All these things added together get us where we are today. The government is not going to fix that. If the government really could fix it, it would just create price controls. Doctors and hospitals could only charge so much, but they would have to have the power to turn people away if they abuse the system (like bringing your kid in for a cold). Do we really want the government telling us when we can see the doctor? No one cares as long as it is the other guy, but when I want to see the doctor, it is a whole different story.

• curmudgeon said on Jul 06, 2009....

  Sean - I see, conservatives, nay anyone who takes a critical stance at this universal health care scheme are liars, thus necessitating a fake Obama town hall meeting stacked with supporters. Again, good ideas ought to stand the weight of criticism, both honest and dishonest. If it's necessary to hold propaganda events, maybe it's not such a great idea. The only reason any self-described freethinker would argue for propaganda is if he's in the tank for the propagandist.
  
  Cussane - Canada pays for treatment outside Canada? Get your passports ready! If universal health care comes to the US, you folks are going to have to go elsewhere for your treatment, because the waiting lists for doctors in the US will be miles longer than they are now. Maybe you can go to Cuba.
  
  Besides, don't you get that if your own nationalized system has to have a valve mechanism built in (allowing patients to seek treatment outside the system and paying for it) that there's something wrong with the entire structure?
  
  Besides, if Canadians are such proponents of government medicine, why wouldn't they support the Cuban system rather than come to greedy capitalist US doctors for treatment when their own socialized system fails to treat them?
  
  I just love how all these nanny staters deride the current American way of doing things, but who do they come to when they really need help and their own system can't deliver? The greedy capitalists.
  

• Cussane said on Jul 06, 2009....

  Alien, your logic is flawed, but lets extend that a bit so only americans are on the jerry springer show, so using your logic all americans are redneck morons who fuck thier sisters mother's dog, following along that line then they must also be republicans , now we all know this is not true but seems when faced with facts both sides of the political spectrum go on a rant which has no bearing on the original debate. so again i ask for you to produce one documented report from ohip or the cma where someone has been refused care. Cur- yes we do, however the cases are not based on not recieving treatment they are based on the wait time gareentees, ie if care cannot be given within a certian time then it is gotten elsewhere. this has been since the canada health act came into force in 1961, nothing new, and yes it means there is a problem with the system but remember this system was put into place in the early 30's, i have said many times in many posts that the system needs an overhaul in order to bring it up to date to deal with an aging population and systmes/buildings that need to be refurbished. and no we dont run to the US, we also send patients to the UK, USA, Austrialia and other nations, it is dependant on what care is needed and where the best place to get it is. I am not dreiding the current US model, but all of you have to decide whether you want a for profit system (hence SMB's 40.00 asprin) or a not for profit system, there are pro's and cons to each one Cussane

• curmudgeon said on Jul 06, 2009....

  40 dollar aspirin? OK, maybe I need to back through this thread, but the "for profit" system enables us to purchase drugs at various price levels. I could get the 40 buck prescription stuff or I could get Bayer over the counter for what 5 bucks a bottle.
  
  The mismatch here is that people want to pay five dollars for the brand new lifesaving drugs that cost fifty bucks a pill.
  
  They cost fifty bucks because it takes a decade or more of research, clinical trials and patent applications to bring these new drugs to market. It would cost that much to bring new drugs to market whether it was privately funded or public, unless the government were to lower safety thresholds. Moreover, they cost that much because drug companies have to recoup their costs and make a profit in the limited time they have control over the patents they have invested so much time, money and expertise to develop.
  
  Someone has to cough up the balance, and these pro-government single payer hucksters think suggest that they can pull it off by digitizing everyone's medical records. I don't buy it and no amount of Obama's Town Hall fakery will ever make me buy it. Until politicians start telling the truth - that first class health care costs big money but is well worth the investment - I won't buy into their pleas for more government control.
  

• Cussane said on Jul 06, 2009....

  "until polictians start telling the truth" thats a good one, kind of like findings weapons of mas destruction or john kerry as a war hero Cussane

• ALIENated said on Jul 06, 2009....

  Thank you, but I do not need to produce any documents that prove anything. I am stating my opinion (take it or leave it) and the opinions and "facts" that I have heard from others. I have heard many stories about the shortcomings of the Canadian healthcare system. You obviously live in a place where everything is worderful, maybe at the end of the rainbow. Good for you. If you want the government running your life, go for it (as it seems Canada has). I am a conservative and, I suppose, a Republican and I believe the government should play as small a roll in our lives as possible. As Reagan said "the government is not going to solve your problems, the government is the problem". The government already has too much power, which Democrats admit when a Republican is in the White House. When a Democrat takes over as president suddenly Democrats think the government can do no wrong. Speaking of logic, both of those cannot be true. The mere fact that Republicans want to reduce the size of government is enough to keep me voting for them. However, it is almost a catch 22. Democrats build big political machines (as Clinton did and OhBummer now has) while Republicans try to tear down big political strongholds. Again, George Dubya Bush is not a good example of this because he had to do too many Democrat-like things in order to get continued Democrat support for his war on terrorists. He got a little stubborn about kicking terrorist ass at the expense of everything else that he needed to be doing and that he promised to do. And all I know is that I had a job throughout the Dubya years and I have been unemployed ever since Borax took over. His menial highway and sewer building jobs are not going to help me. I will take a job and Borax can keep his "change".

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