• gingersoul said on Jun 12, 2009....

  Beybey..........this is just one of the many reasons i like you so much...:-)

• Lucytorial said on Jun 12, 2009....

  Thank you Beyond, wonderfully said.

  It is most important the people realise what you have said, I am capable of making decisions for myself, but certainly not for millions of people.  I too will answer my own personal god and those questions I answer will be just as you have said.

  How have I bettered my spirit and shown myself as a human being with love, integrity generousity of spirit towards others.

• woman said on Jun 12, 2009....

  Thank you. Such a difficult, heartbreaking subject. And you, you were a calm, intelligent voice speaking about it. Thank you.

• alabamagirl said on Jun 12, 2009....

  Well written and well thought out.  I don't know what these women go through.  I know it must be the hardest decision of their life.  Whether I think it's wrong or right, it's not my place to judge.   

• Hegemone said on Jun 12, 2009....

  Very well said Beyond!  It is definitely a difficult thing to speak of, and it does get tiring hearing all the people out there who assume they can think for the multitudes and decide what they should do, and what is right or wrong.  Everybody is an individual, everybody faces their own demons, fears their own maker, and that's not a position for anybody else to assume for them.  Well put!

• travelr712 said on Jun 12, 2009....

  i know that long held social stigmatic beliefs take a long time to change. i also know that when the last resort of those few who still hold them is violence, those beliefs die.
   
  i really don't know how to phrase it yet, but there's just something so ironic about an abortion doctor being murdered in a church, don't you think?

• MissMimi said on Jun 12, 2009....

  You know, beyond, I wasn't going to stop in here tonight.  It's late, and I'm tired, but I thought, what the hell and clicked on SoulCast.  I'm very glad I did.  This is the best, most thoughtful, blog I have ever read on the subject.  Thank you.  I wish more people were as reasonable as you are.

  You're a good guy, beyond. 

• hotaka said on Jun 13, 2009....

  As I said on mOOnie's post, I am reading a book about reprogenetics and how various techniques can help couples who can't have a child of their own. The reason why this is relevant to a post about abortion is 1) it describes what actually goes on in a developing fetus and how close (or far) it is from "life in the special sense" - meaning a conscious human being; and 2) it mentions how some pregnancies can create life-threatening situations for the mother.
  
  But rather than slowly type out what would actually turn out to be post on abortion, I will say that you points about people caring only enough to shout and scream and then go home and eat ice cream and pizza is something that I have always felt about protesters of any sort. They care not for the consequences in the lives of the people they scream at. They only hold their "belief" and feel everyone else should do as they believe is right. If I felt the same way I would have every right to shout at people for littering, for bad parking, for dangerous driving and for inconsiderate actions that piss of other people.
  
  It's such a sensative issue, abortion. It's too bad that most people who are against it have to make an ass of themselves, especially the ones who harrass a woman who is already going through a very hard time with making that decision.
  

• Twylarants said on Jun 13, 2009....

  Great post, Beyond.  If only the politicians knew how many of us felt this way.  Unfortunately, we're not heavily financed lobbyists so they wouldn't listen to us, anyway.
  
  

• diabolicdame said on Jun 13, 2009....

  This was brilliant. Really was. You are so respectful, intelligent and calm. Brilliant.

• bhalah said on Jun 13, 2009....

  Hello, my name is Bhalah, and theres a tipe of point, that make me just said     , to make all humans come, maybe there have to be instaled, in the maint of humans, the idea of, adoption,  the adoption, shoud be such diferent regulation social  have to, couse at the moment theres plenty asociations, ong, instituticional ley, etc, that make so dificoult, to think freely in the way of adoption.

  There not murders, there persons, who, dasent know, what to do, whit a responsabitlity for the rest of them life.

  Bicouse theres such much, bad or wrongs, or whatever call, principles, in the maint peoples instaled, us mecanic... not all, is not posible yet think in the idea of give your birth, to sameone, how maybe, can look ufter better...

  Theres 2 important points, first, make the people adopt, and second do the mothers give them child, theres not one point coul be easy to eny ones, so what is the rest, abort, or take the responsability.

  Whatever you chouse, we are there, same nearly to day, sameone is giving a birth now, we are millions, haw many, we are now, which became, in a lovly night, or in a casual one? who we are mising around or we are enoufht,

  To be dead, or to be a life, is, us my mind think, not yours, is be just in diferent dimension, dasent plenty said, we have plenty dies around? who knows, but to defenetly ended, this post which think is very clever, i am, the person, who did bouth, I abort, 20 years ago, and I give bhirth, 20 years later, do I am a murder?..., if I have to, yes I am...

• ALIENated said on Jun 13, 2009....

  I did not read all of your post. After a couple of lines, I can probably recite the rest of the well-worn, pro-death baloney. You probably make a big joke of it all, blast those who speak for the unborn that are casually ripped from their mother's womb, describe in scientific terms why a baby is not a baby, talk about people who support killers of abortion doctors, and probably how men have no right to speak for women who have to have the babies, especially men who claim to be "religious". That is pretty much the popular, politically correct stance. I call it the easy way out.

  And I do not have to read all the comments to know what they say. The words of encouragement, the back slapping, like proud relatives passing out cigars after a birth, except this is all about death.

  As I have said elsewhere, I often wonder how parents and the worshipers of Baal could stand by and watch children burning on a bonfire, but I am starting to wonder about that less and less as I watch our society sink into apathy about this whole subject. After a while, it just becomes easier to join in the crowd around the bonfire instead of trying to fight the worshipers of Baal and trying to pull the children from the fire. I know, I know. We would never sink to those depths. But all you have to do is look back a few decades, and compare the thinking then to the thinking now, to see just how wrong you are.

  Remember my words as the Supreme Court, packed with our new president's appointees, considers questions like uthenasia for small children with Downs Syndrome, for example, that "inconvenience" their poor mother. Oh, that would never happen. Really? Your grandparents never thought that their children would consider murdering their grandchildren either. Sorry to rain on the festivities, but I am all out of cigars.

• gingersoul said on Jun 13, 2009....

  Good....because smoking is bad......it leads to death as well...
  
  Don't you want preserve your life too, Alienated?......:-)
  

• mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 13, 2009....

  O
   

  ALIENated said about 4 hours ago....

  I did not read all of your post. After a couple of lines, I can probably recite the rest of the well-worn, pro-death baloney. You probably make a big joke of it all....

   

  This is why I'm sick of this guy. If the sky turned pink he would insist that it is still blue. At least now he admits that he isn't reading, he's just ranting. Over and over and over.

  I don't feel the need to create alts and post intrusions on his posts, yet he feels compelled to create alts like "mOOnie_platOOnie" and "trav" to come into our posts and mock the procedings.

  He's starting to remind me of copsunited, heading for a cyber-breakdown. I can't believe that I actually used to enjoy his commentary. I've lost all respect for him.

  Great post, beyond. Please don't let the flamers take it over.

  O

• Lucytorial said on Jun 13, 2009....

  Alien ~ Excuse me sir but you do realise that the thinking on this topic has not changed over the course of hundreds of years.  For hundreds of years women have been aborting their babies, wether it is by a procedure called a termination, or by pills, or by herbs, or by extreme violence the thinking has been the same.
   
  Every women deserves the choice, wether you think it never existed before or not matters little.  Your small minded illogical statements only create disbelief, they do not sway the middle roaders at all.

• mongol said on Jun 13, 2009....

  War is pro death. Abortion is pro death as well.

• mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 13, 2009....

  O
   
  Actually, LIFE is pro death.
   
  O

• Lucytorial said on Jun 13, 2009....

  Ohh how right! now why didn't I think of that.. not enough coffee mOOn :-D

• diabolicdame said on Jun 13, 2009....

  "But some feel they are capable. Some feel they are that godlike. These are the same ones who have the right answers for everything."
  

  So when somebody comes here and passes judgement without even reading.. they are kind of proving the whole point of this post and being rather self defeating.

• Lucytorial said on Jun 13, 2009....

  DBabe Alien has a habit of being self righteous and totally unfounded in his statements.  Its a bad habit.

• bhalah said on Jun 13, 2009....

  theres only one moment, you relise, what you did, and is when you give a birth, you understand the life is there, and you dont cry eny more the past, you got many things to do..maybe cry the present, wy not, .a responsability to take care... but also in your deepness you said thanks God for forgive  my past, us a hope all will be right,
   
   go to africa... go to paquistan...go to mexico, go to china, go to where you can see haw others live,  hier stadistics abaut groing up the suiciders at tinagers, wy?, where the right humans are there? every where there humans rigth? dill whit what you already have, and teach haw to  grow enought to have a baby, and then , if you have one more class, please teach the man, to understan they have sons and dougther, same where over the moon, even, there, they have to be responsable too, if, they can learn... theres plenty of everything everywhere, who is the right to juce, have you got the truht? no, I have, not she has, not he is, not they are...
   
  I know, is all going to same way,  we have to fine a responsable for the wrongs, put a name, and kill, so who is worse, the ones who think is not the time yet, or thouse who  kill you for your thot.

• travelr712 said on Jun 13, 2009....

  alien, of course, is entitled to his opinion. but his comment, especially the part about not even reading the entire post or any comments, shows just how uninformed, emotionally based and archaic that opinion is. of particular interest were the comments he made about the substance and nature of the post that were completely wrong. how then would he expect anyone to consider his position on any issue valid, if his methods are not to even examine what is right in front of him?
   
  if the government were to tell him where to work, or what car to buy, or which church to go to, he would shout 'sociolism' from the rooftops, along with all the other right wing conservatives. but for the government to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body, well, that's just good sense according to him and those like him. the technology is available, proven and safe. so i have to ask, why would a being who controls the universe according to its plan not stop, or keep from happening, such prolific technology? or is this just another example of that being creating or allowing to be created something it knows it will dislike, and in the end distroying it in a rage? to me, that doesn't sound like a 'plan', it sounds like an emotional reaction to a situation you cannot control.

• gingersoul said on Jun 13, 2009....

  mOOnie....(skipping the Alienated thing all together...its getting boring talking about the same thing over and over again)
  
  well....its not that life is pro death...its just that its the way it is..life and death...death and life......one can't exist without the other one...
  
  But since in a being there is the present moment shaped as a lived existence AND the potentiality of its future.....(one intertwined to the another one) each of us can choose their own life, already formed, instead of a potentiality of life.
  
  I think that in the matter of this topic, the main difference is all in this: what is more valuable and ultimately important?
  
  A life that is already in fieri, that has already changed the world around herself and is a IN with all its beauty and ugliness, or a mere potentiality of life, something that might and equally might not develop in something equally valuable.
  
  In this perspective, i am for a being. So abortion is not at all being for a death. Its still choosing the being, the present life. Always a life. Potentiality of life is still not life. So theorically, pushing the envelope, there is no death.

• beyondtheveil said on Jun 13, 2009....

  I used to be anti-abortion. Vocally anti-abortion in my younger years. I felt that there was a forming life in those wombs, that you sleep in the bed you make, that you take responsibility for your own actions.
  
  Then came the time I made some dear friends at a restaurant I frequented. I wrote a post about this place and the people in it. Two of these friends were waitresses there. One was mid twenties and married, the other seventeen and unmarried. On two occasions about six months apart they came to me in that restaurant and took me off to the side.
  
  We sat down, they started crying. They had messed up and had become pregnant. I listened to their stories, I listened to their fears, and how heartbroken they were about the whole thing. And their reasons for wanting an abortion were heartbreaking. They couldn't go to the guys who did this with them because they simply didn't care and blamed both of them for it happening.
  
  At first it kind of angered me that they asked for help. Then I was angry at the guys responsible. They dropped them like dirty linen. The married one was on her own with two kids. I won't go into all the reasons for both.
  
  I was one of maybe three male friends they could go to for help, there was no one else. I looked into those eyes and just couldn't help myself. It was the first time I looked at the other side, the first time I felt the other side. And at both of these times I reached into my pocket and gave each fifty dollars. They hugged me crying and must have thanked me a dozen times.
  
  There have been many things in my life that changed me from thinking in black and white as a young guy. These were two of them. There are deep personal struggles with every human being at some time in their lives. Women are left alone with this struggle. A horrible struggle that tears at their insides.
  
  I still don't know if I did the right thing. Perhaps not. What I do know is two friends came to me during one of these times, heart open and hurting as few people can hurt. And I did the only thing I could at the moment.
  
  I think I can live with that.
  

• MissMimi said on Jun 14, 2009....

  I am pro-choice.  This doesn not mean I am pro-abortion.  Far from it.  I think we all can agree that no one should take abortion lightly.  I was once in the position of having to make a decision about this.  It's a horrible choice to have to make.  Ultimately I chose not to. 

  I sure as hell don't want the federal or state government peering between my legs, telling me what I may or may not do with my own body.

• ALIENated said on Jun 14, 2009....

  I have no alts, period. Never have. Do not blame those comments on me. I have blocked Moonie and, as far as I can remember, do not read or comment on his drivel. (By the way, he blocked me first.) I suspect he is also several other characters around here, which is probably why he suspects others of having alts. I did not have to read this because it is so predictable. Was I wrong in my prediction of the post or the comments? As Lucy says, we tend to go around in circles about this. I am just completing my part of the circle. I happen to believe in promoting life. If you prefer to promote death, so be it. I, of course, obey our laws, but, without protesters, blacks would still be sitting in the back of the bus, using separate restrooms, and hung by the neck at the drop of a hat. Liberals often compare homosexual marriage to civil rights and slavery, but I think abortion is more comparable to slavery. Do women own the baby they are carrying? Does that human being have no rights as if it was a slave to be tortured and burned. If a woman has a baby in a restroom stall and stuffs it in a garbage can, that is murder. How can an abortionist doctor killing that same baby one day earlier not be murder? You can wrap your guilt in any argument you like, but abortion is murder. What else can you call the taking of a life? What term would you prefer? I know the truth hurts and you would rather play up technology and science to explain away what is happening, but it is still murder, plain and simple, whether you like it or not. The technology and science just makes what is happening a little less obvious and a lot more convenient. We could easily euthenize old folks, but that would be wrong, right? The question is, with the abortion mentality becoming the norm, how long before we head down those other paths? Not that long, I would guess.

• travelr712 said on Jun 14, 2009....

  no one said you had alts here alien, moon said you were heading for a cyber meltdown the way cops did, a completely different statement.
   
  all of those things you mentioned about civil rights and blacks were instituted and fought for by liberal democrats, and fought against by conservative republicans. since you are using those incidents in support of your argument, one can only conclude that you now believe your political base was wrong back then.
   
  let me ask you alien, if you blatently misunderstand other's comments, quote your opposition to support your point, and do not even read the entire subject presented to you, how do you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously?

• mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 14, 2009....

  O

  FAILEDANDinebriated: I love the crazy way you deny having alts and point fingers at me by accusing me of being suspicious - and who has been more suspicious of alts and led the community on more alt-safaris than YOU?

  "I suspect he is also several other characters around here, which is probably why he suspects others of having alts."

  The timing of your alt appearances (mr. math) has betrayed you on more than one hot-headed occasion.

  Not one of these unclever murder-mongers has yet addressed a key issue raised by both myself and by beyond. What about the immortality of each soul? And the inevitability of that soul finding a vessel?

  We keep getting ignored in certain areas. Convenient. Maybe they need to slow down and read, then digest for a second. Calicification of the brain might still be counteracted.

  ALIENated and his ilk cannot address an issue unless they frame it a certain way. He lost comfort with interaction and transformation long ago, and his waters are stagnant. His faith is so frail that he clings to it like a life raft in an ocean storm. I may be the last voice that takes the time to address his redundancy.

  O

• travelr712 said on Jun 14, 2009....

  ok alien, now moon has accused you of having alts :-)
   
  i've asked preachers, theologeons, professors in religious colleges and lay people the question 'when a baby dies in the womb, isn't that god performing an abortion?' and other iterations of that same question. their answer usually centers around 'well, that baby goes straight to heaven'. to me, that seems to support what you're saying moon, that whether man or god ends the physical life here on earth, the soul goes to a much better place for eternity, having not had the opportunity to sin. the exponential increase in world population in the last 50 years is straining resources, the ability to govern, social structure, and just about every aspect of life on this planet. now this may seem like a harsh thing that i'm about to say, but war, famine, disease and capitol punishment has had the effect of curbing the world population until these things were targeted for eradication. so if allowing a woman to make a choice for her own body helps curb the population explosion and sends an unborn soul to heaven, who looses?

• travelr712 said on Jun 14, 2009....

  as to alien's comment: "What else can you call the taking of a life? What term would you prefer? I know the truth hurts and you would rather play up technology and science to explain away what is happening, but it is still murder, plain and simple, whether you like it or not."
   
  then soldiers are murderers. police are murderers. those who carry out capitol punishment are murderers. they all take lives, and by your description, that is murder. do you see how it goes from being an objective statement to a subjective one alien?

• beyondtheveil said on Jun 14, 2009....

  platoon- Winston Churchill once said (paraphrased) how amazing it is the energy people expend to avoid the labor of thinking. Not only that but they have to venture that thought into both sides of all issues, both of which seem to be mysteriously missing from the right wing.
  
  I've said this several times before, but no one can have an opinion of any substance unless they understand both sides and decide in a reasonable way from there. People who do not do this (on right or left) encumber us with the baseless and revolving rhetoric of a cow taught to return to the corral every evening at six.
  
  No thinker ever latched onto a book or belief early on and became enslaved to it for life, unencumbered by change, human events, or under questioning of their own soul. And strangely, those beliefs become filled with hatred, animosity, and a loss of patients toward all who believe differently since there is no room to incorporate new or refreshing feelings in their being. Their arguments are one liners and there has never been a one liner that provided understanding or a path to fulfillment.
  

• ALIENated said on Jun 14, 2009....

  Let me repeat. I have no alts, period. Never have. Mr. Math? Never heard of him. Why make up alts, professor? I am anonymous enough as it is. I say nothing I am ashamed of or show pictures of myself naked, etc. As far a Republicans holding blacks back, I would have to say you have never been to the South, especially before the 70s. The South was predominately Democrat and about as racist as it gets. I grew up with Democrats in the South, and they were as racist as it gets. I suppose two out of three is not bad. So unborn babies go to heaven. What about a one year old baby? Is it OK to murder them also since they will go straight to heaven most likely? You see, this is so easy because you are taking the side of death and its author. There is no good answer you can come up with to justify murder, taking an innocent life. You always resort to questioning my mental state. That is just sad considering what you are advocating -- putting a spike in the brain of an innocent human being (I like to be graphic because I do not want you to forget what exactly we are talking about here). As far as soldiers and police, there is a big difference in murder and killing. Soldiers and police are enforcing the law and protecting our citizens. I suppose you could say Tiller was enforcing the law. However, it is a bad law in my opinion because it legalizes the murder of innocent babies. There is just no way to justify that no matter who you talk to. Did you also ask all those people you consider to be knowledgeable if they think abortion is OK since the baby "goes to heaven"? And what capital crime have unborn babies committed that makes them like criminals being executed (not murdered) for horrible crimes in most cases? And why is it that pro-life people do not understand both sides of the issue? The lady that was the subject of Roe Vs. Wade now thinks abortion is wrong, and speaks out against abortion. I understand both sides of the argument, I just disagree with your side of it. Why are you not the cow that comes home at night like all good liberals listening to the sweet music of political correctness? I know it is easier to just call people stupid and brainless, yadda yadda yadda than to consider both sides. You (you abortionists) are erring on the side of death and I am erring on the side of life, of live and let live. Tell me honestly, on your mother's life (unless she tried to abort you), which one of us do you (honestly now) think that God would agree with more? If a mother can chose to murder her unborn baby, why can plantation owners in the South not own slaves and murder them if they want? Have you thought of that side of the argument? I thought not. Empty barrels usually make the most noise.

• travelr712 said on Jun 14, 2009....

  so you are modifying your original statement now to say that in some circumstances, such as war or police action, taking of life is justified alien. as you said in your last comment, there is a difference between killing and murder. i agree with you there. it also means that the taking of life is not a moral absolute, it is subjective, it depends on the circumstances. again, i agree with you.
   
  you say soldiers and police and executioners are upholding the law and protecting the citizens. so the innocent people who are killed by police, the tens of thousands of innocent iraqi and afghani men women and yes, one year old and unborn children, the hundreds of thousands of innocent vietnamese, laotian, cambodean, and korean men women and children, the millions of european and asian men women and again, yes, one year old and unborn children killed by american soldiers and bombs were all justified because the soldiers were doing their duty in war. so it is not the killing of innocent men, women and children you object to, it is the circumstances under which those people, specifically unborn children, are killed.
   
  being that we agree that killing is subjective, and to you age is not the determining factor, then you present to us that you reconcile this moral delema, you draw the moral line, where you percieve that your god tells you to. now, since i know from extensive readings of your text that your god has no aversion whatsoever to killing men, women and children, including unborn, both himself committing the acts and ordering his armies to do the deeds, then i know that this deity has no moral absolute against killing, including unborn children. as just a single example, he caused david's first born child of bathsheba who had committed no crime to die before it was born. i can provide any number of other examples if you wish.
   
  you have no absolute moral objection to the killing of innocent children. your god has no absolute moral objection to himself or his people killing innocent children. in all of these circumstances, you say it is not murder, it is killing. i accept that definition.
   
  your entire argument seems to center around the fact that you believe it to be wrong for a woman, by her own choice, to (using your words) kill her child. by your definition, this is murder, even though it is sanctioned by the same government who sanctions killing unborn children in wartime or police action, the woman is exercising her rights under the law, and the doctors performing the action are upholding the law.
   
  is this because you believe that a woman shouldn't be given the same choice that the soldier, policeman or government has?

• ALIENated said on Jun 14, 2009....

  What has the unborn child done again to deserve death? I will agree that innocent people are killed in war. I really do not see how one wrong justifies another wrong. Do you somehow think that I enjoy seeing people killed in war because I am anti-abortion? What kind of logic disconnect could bring you to that conclusion? In a nutshell, here is what you have said ... innocent people are killed by policemen and in war, so mothers should have the right to kill their unborn babies. Does that really make sense to you? And God works in mysterious ways that even you cannot figure out. However, I would not base too much on the Old Testament. God was simply setting things up for the savior. He knew we could not follow all those rules, so he offers an alternate plan. Besides, what has the Bible got to do with it? We have laws against murder, which most liberals think has nothing to do with God or Christianity. I suspect all that Bible talk is just more backhanded name calling (look at the crazy Christian). I dare say there are atheists who know that abortion is wrong.

• travelr712 said on Jun 14, 2009....

  if your god has mysterious ways that you cannot figure out, then you don't know whether he condones a woman's right to choose alien. you can't have it both ways. your god is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, is he not? so his condoning of what you call murder is the same as it was yesterday, and will be the same tomorrow.
   
  yes, we have laws against murder. however, abortion is sanctioned by the federal government, and therefore just like capitol punishment, is not murder.
   
  if, as you have just said, we are to leave the bible out of this discussion, then nothing presented in that text applies to this discussion. so how then do you justify your position that your god is against legal abortion? was it a special revelation to you?

• ALIENated said on Jun 15, 2009....

  You are almost as tedious as bloc. You seem to take great pride in debate while losing site of what you are debating. How do you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously?

• travelr712 said on Jun 15, 2009....

  no, i haven't lost sight of what i am debating alien. you just are not able to predict where i am going with my argument. if you were to answer my questions, you would find out. it is called the socratic method. but since you have not answered my questions, i don't see how i can continue with this debate.

• ALIENated said on Jun 16, 2009....

  Good. I will lose no sleep over any argument FOR killing babies. That is the thing I keep in sight at all times. The only argument for abortion is convenience (other than a real danger to the mother). Terminating a human life for convenience will never make sense to me or Socrates.

• travelr712 said on Jun 16, 2009....

  so killing babies in a war or a police action so you can be safe is fine with you, but a woman having a choice over her own body and her own future, that's wrong. yeah, i get ya alien.

• ALIENated said on Jun 18, 2009....

  No, you get nothing. That is the problem. How do mothers killing their unborn babies keep us safe? How have unborn babies threatened our way of life? I do not think that our soldiers or our police would intentionally kill a baby. Do you, really? I thank God for the soldiers and police that protect us every day, while people like you call them murders just to sooth your conscious for supporting real cold blooded murder of the unborn. You are trying to justify that cold blodded murder by pointing to casualties of war. Apples and oranges, as they say. Wars are not our first choice, intentionally killing unborn babies is a choice in most cases, that is what you are arguing for -- the intentionaly murder of unborn babies. Are you nieve enough to think that we would still be a free nation if we had not fought wars against people who would murder us all, not just our babies? I would prefer that no one is killed in war OR by abortion. I am so tired of the worn out argument that pro-life in regards to the unborn means you are pro-death and support wars. That is just stupid. One has nothing to do with the other. You might as well say people are killed in automobile accidents every day, so we should be able to murder the unborn. That is about as stupid as thinking war has anything to do with it. However, it is a kind of political blackmail, right. Well, you are for this so I can be for that. In this case you are saying "well, you believe in protecting our country from those who are out to bury us (and innocent people sometimes die in the process) so women should be able to murder their babies." Does that really make sense to you? You better go back and study Socrates some more because that argument is a bunch of crap.

• mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 18, 2009....

  O
  
  The "unborn." Is that the opposite of the "undead?"
  
  O
  

• ALIENated said on Jun 18, 2009....

  You are soOOo funny.

• stopmediabias said on Jun 20, 2009....

  Alien-It is almost like the moral tightrope everyone has to walk in regards to determining the significance of the unborn would be enough by itself to prohibit people from such a procedure.  There are so many other reasons that make abortion absolutely horrible.  There has to be other ways.

• bhalah said on Jun 20, 2009....

  yes, there has to be other ways, i just guet the information at google, and said, 1.600.000 abortions, are the numbers each year, in EE.UU, each 3 born child, one is death, 92 percent are not for rape, or womans proteccion health.
   
  Theres only, 50.000 adoption child, and more than 10.000, has to be whit a foreing child. Since 1973, when abortion low, is legal, 30.000.000, abortion are made, 20 more times than people lost in the civil war, first and secon mundials war, plus vietnam...This is just the number of one country, plus the rest...
   
  Is this a problem of murders, bud mums, or pro death?  eny ignorant ,even like me, guet alarmed ...
   
  If you want to take this, as seriusly it is, ufter been legal , on 1973,  the numbers are there, so if work or not,   guest...
   
  I dont see a problem whit murders, i see a very big profits, by doctors who learn this at university, plus the adoption in black,  many psicologics problems, a total indiference by the entorne, it is hapen, who knows haw many now,  and ,and interminable discution, betwin politics and principles by the church, they has to be against...and the losing respect of the womans, we earn by a tipe of actions, we are the only responsables?...
   
  What i see asweall, is need a big chanche in politics low, they have too, not very easy to my small point of view, becouse is an invest in a real learning sexual education, principles, which arent enought whith the churche, they loosing respect, day by day, so it has to be in each concence as the reality in 2009, it is...
   
  theres need a debate, from enyone, maybe, but... also, there has to be a tipe of solution, i see, no body have in them hands...
   
  So, i am not body,  even dont have eny cualifications, but in my humble life, can see theres just plenty argues, goes to the rubish at the end, and in few more years they will steel talking abaut same, and nothing be done.
   
  I have ideas, for example, what abaut, tenagers who guet pregnant, and the cuple is not well done, and theres pruob theres not soport, the child,  has to go strait on, to thouse who whish to have babys, just whit this, you will make safe few many more lifes, give them a good family having the responsability to give them education, health and soport, ...you can said, is done already, yes, but isent enought, theres plenty waiting years to adopt a child, theres plenty go to forein countrys to guet them, so by this way, non profit in black, and many cuple can be happy,
   
  Other, give a  mony punishment  to the parents, bhouth,  from the woman and from the boy, you will see if we are not going to put more efort in sexual education by the clouse entorne, to thouse sons and dougthers...
   
  other, whit the mony punishment to the parents, not to grow the economy market,  but make a soport for thouse childs they dont have parents to adopt and give education for them future.. ok, theres plenty ong, but not enought either,
   
  Other, this have to be done for eny pregnant, not care, where a country are from, becouse we are talking abaut babys, not nacionalism, so this have to go to european comite,dont know,  but again take years, and a position in the comite, so..., we can talk and talk and talk, for more than a plenty years, so, what i have to do as a normal cityzen, whitaut word and vote, apart, of let the others do not have eny respect becouse a bad action it soupouse it is, by all the  principles  you have.
   
  The numbers are there, as i said before, i did, it was my foult, i hade enough psicologics problems i have to hier when they said abaut murders or bud mums, i feell impotente... I pay, and paying whit my life all my wrongs, but dasent mean i i dident change it, i hade a new oportunity, and i am proud of my dougther, even if i do not my work very well, but i do.. dont care what you think..., if you have a good family soport and wonderfoull sons and doughter, i think is great for you, indeed, but jugze, dasent make eny chanche, unless the concence of this, as a big problem indeed, is in peoples mind instaled.
   
  I hier just last days, a colombian girls, who put his baby in a motor way, and killed, AND said a lie, abaut secuestring, or whatever, this one, is a MURDER, not me, not thouse tenagers, not even adults who can not manage a responsability it is, but not eny soport i have that time, and very young i was to realise, that was a wrong, i was going to pay, for the rest of plenty years, and win the non respect of thouse who  juce me, and also i said sorry, if at the begining, dident put myself in others mind, and shut up...
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

• mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 20, 2009....

  O
   
  BTW, Socrates would make mincemeat out of Christianity. Or any other religion.
   
  O

• ALIENated said on Jun 21, 2009....

  Well, Socrates may be just another know-it-all liberal then.

  Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

  The answer to that is "yes".

• mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 21, 2009....

  O

  All of your questions are rhetorical.

  O

• ALIENated said on Jun 21, 2009....

  Sorry, I thought we were talking about abortion. Has the subject changed to personal attack again? I am pretty used to that. Most people who hate the message end up hating the messenger as well.

• mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 22, 2009....

  O
  
  We're talking about your closed communication loop. You don't want anyone else's answers.
  
  O
  

• eurekame said on Jun 24, 2009....

  I like that...my own "personal god", my mom would say things like this to me also growing up. Not about abortion, but about my personal God, it really strikes home. I to have had to make the choice-and I have my daughter. It turned out good for me and I'm glad I made my own choice.
   
  I don't believe everyone should have the same beliefs-but also I think that with everything there has to be some limitations...
   
  as in partial birth abortion...they treat animals better than this in-humane act...that is all I will say on that matter...

• beyondtheveil said on Jun 24, 2009....

  eureka- I'm happy you had your daughter and I'm sure you are too. I agree on limitations, most everything has to have limitations. I have my feelings on abortion too, but I'm not the one to choose. 

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